The State of Football (soccer) in the UK

[kserra]

I read with interest the article on the front page of Sports Interactive about the situation for many clubs regarding stadiums (in Scotland) and I was wondering if anyone with some knowledge of the conditions over there can enlighten a poor American fool...

How have the new transfer rules, the rise of corporate money, and the struggling worldwide economy affected UK soccer?

As a true-bloodied American, I am well-verse in the financial problems of American baseball and the seeming meltdown of North American hockey...

so my question is, what problems/issues are the EPL and the lower leagues facing in regards to the "new realities" of the 21st economy?

Again, I'd ask over at SI games, but I feel much more comfortable with this crowd...plus the pure volume of messages over there makes it somewhat a daunting task to ween any useful information...

Kevin

[Franklinnoble]

They'd have a much better following in the US if it were easier (and cheaper) to watch the games over here.

[Calis]

Interesting. I've been a Celtic fan since I was young kid pretty much because the first game I ever saw was an Old Firm match and I've had an Irish-fetish since I was born basically.

I have no clue on the finances though, but that was a pretty interesting article. From everything I've read Scottish football is basically crap for the most part. I'm not sure entirely what caused this. Is it the fact that the EPL was already established and so near?

I think it does sound promising with a good batch of Scottish players being raised now, but what're the odds of them actually playing there? No one wants to play there.

It's a vicious circle. I think Celtic/Rangers are being held back by the SPL and the rest of the SPL is being held back by the Old Firm. I'm not sure how you fix things.

[kserra]

They'd have a much better following in the US if it were easier (and cheaper) to watch the games over here.

You're not kidding...thanks to CM...I really ENJOY good soccer...but there are NEVER any games on in the states, with the exception of the MLS, which, personally, I just don't dig...

To watch an EPL game, I've got to shell out over $15 bucks!!! I like soccer, but not as much as I like good porn late night, after I've got the wife a little tipsy... :) I'm joking...relax...we'd never do something like that...

Too bad ESPN2 doesn't carry some of these games during their dead hours...

Kevin

[KevinNU7]

Fox Sports World rocks

[Calis]

Fox Sports World rocks

That it does, but I find myself constantly on the verge of breaking my TV when I run across a show saying what's going to be on later, and then realizing it was Sky Sports News advertising their channels.

Teases.

Really though, it's about the only option we have here. Wish they'd play more EPL games and I guess they lost all the rights to air Scottish games or no one cared.

I just can't get into the South American games they broadcast. I dunno, I guess it's because I'm not at all familiar with the players.

[kserra]

I just can't get into the South American games they broadcast. I dunno, I guess it's because I'm not at all familiar with the players.

That seems to be the only other option here in Michigan...we get a couple of Spanish-speaking channels...(thank you West Michigan and the migrant farmers)...but it is tough to watch these games because so many players are unknown, and the leagues are unfamilar...

I don't have the DISH right now, but I just moved and the channel selection I have is CRAP...the wife and I are both in agreement here, so we may change from cable to the dish, and hopefully she won't notice the extra 10 bucks or so for all of the sports channels...(she's a good wife, she ignores most of my annoying stuff...I think I'll be safe...)

BTW...guys, get your ladies playing INDOOR SOCCER...even if they've never played before...awesome fun for them, gets them in shape, and lots of the ladies on the teams are fine to look at...I keep pushing for a team sleepover, but so far, it hasn't happened.... :)

Kevin

[Franklinnoble]

BTW...guys, get your ladies playing INDOOR SOCCER...even if they've never played before...awesome fun for them, gets them in shape, and lots of the ladies on the teams are fine to look at...I keep pushing for a team sleepover, but so far, it hasn't happened.... :)


Brilliant!

[Crapshoot]

I wish I had FSW.. sadly, I get to watch the old EPL game a week late on FS.

Regarding finances, Rangers and Celtic have taken first and second place between them for the last 20 years I believe- I think Alex Ferguson's Aberdeen was the last team to break that deadlock. The financing problem is those two are the only teams reallly big enough to support an SPL- and they are hampered financially, because their TV deal is for the scottish market, and not the english. Clubs like Bolton and Lecihester are getting about 17 million pounds in TV revenue this year, by viture of being in the premiership- Celtic and Rangers, with a fan based that's double or triple that, are getting about a third. The rest of the SPL thus has to live of the scraps of the TV revenue- the top 2 teams get the lions chunk according to the deal. The other teams simply cannot afford to pay more than a few hundred thousand piunds for anyone, and a couple are in administration or close to it. Really, the long run solution is to make the SPL what it is really is -a minor European league, and let Celtic and Rangers join the premier league. It may be the death of the SPL as a real league, but its not much of one currently.

[druez]

War Scarborough good old conference squad. I try to lead them out of there every version of CM4

[ice4277]

I haven't read the article, but, couldn't the Glasgow teams moving to the EPL possibly make long-term sense for the rest of the SPL? No doubt there would be a hangover, but after a decade or so, wouldn't the levelled competition, along with a much better chance for most teams to actually win the damn thing, make for higher attendances and therefore more money being pumped into the game? If I were a fan of a team like Aberdeen or Hibs I would be pretty frustrated going into every season knowing that my team had absolutely zero chance to win, or even enter the Champions League.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I haven't read the article, but, couldn't the Glasgow teams moving to the EPL possibly make long-term sense for the rest of the SPL? No doubt there would be a hangover, but after a decade or so, wouldn't the levelled competition, along with a much better chance for most teams to actually win the damn thing, make for higher attendances and therefore more money being pumped into the game? If I were a fan of a team like Aberdeen or Hibs I would be pretty frustrated going into every season knowing that my team had absolutely zero chance to win, or even enter the Champions League.
Since I don't know much about the subject, I'll just take advantage of the opportunity to springboard off your post into a couple of questions that came to mind.

1) Could the scenario you describe actually play out (SPL minus the big two) or would it be more along the lines of interest in, say, minor league baseball in America? No matter how competitive the league is, no matter how level the competition, minor league attendance here is gong to be nowhere near what a major league team is (regardless of market size) ?

2) Would the SPL even have an entrant into the Champions League if the league did not include the "big two"? I mean, are things guaranteed for the league champion regardless of who is in the league? Or would it face a situation similar to the Big East-minus-departing-members, with quite a few questions raised about their inclusion in the BCS after the departures?

I gots no idea, so that's why I'm asking.

[Crapshoot]

1. I doubt it will spur more interest, but as it currently stands, there is no competition.

2. It still would, and that is the risk that Celtic and Rangers face- that thbeir automatic European berths (and the cash that goes with it) would be less so against competitive English sides.

[Crapshoot]

Actually, on second thought- the SPL would probably be pegged down in the multiplier, and the champion would probably have to compete in the qulafiying rounds- kind of like the champions of the obscure Eastern European leagues do.

[Desnudo]

Fox Sports World rocks

I know beggars can't be choosers, but I really wish they'd can the American announcer that does all the non-EPL games. His fake Telemundo gooooaaaaall! is really irritating. I do love the sports report though. That theme music makes you want to run out to your nearest soccer field and start knocking bicycle kicks in to the net. :)

[Sharpieman]

You're not kidding...thanks to CM...I really ENJOY good soccer...but there are NEVER any games on in the states, with the exception of the MLS, which, personally, I just don't dig...

To watch an EPL game, I've got to shell out over $15 bucks!!! I like soccer, but not as much as I like good porn late night, after I've got the wife a little tipsy... :) I'm joking...relax...we'd never do something like that...

Too bad ESPN2 doesn't carry some of these games during their dead hours...
Kevin

Actually ESPN2 shows games every tuesday. Tomorrow they'll have Manchester United vs. FC Porto in an UEFA Cup match at 2:30 ET time. I used to have FOX Sports World but it just seemed too expensive to have.

Considering the financial situation with Celtic, its going to be sad to see Henrik Larrson leave and Celtic not pick up someone to replace him. They will probably just try to fill the very big gap with Sean Maloney.

[ice4277]

1) Could the scenario you describe actually play out (SPL minus the big two) or would it be more along the lines of interest in, say, minor league baseball in America? No matter how competitive the league is, no matter how level the competition, minor league attendance here is gong to be nowhere near what a major league team is (regardless of market size) ?
Truthfully, I have no idea if it would work, but it can't really get much worse than it is, in terms of competition between the non-Glasgow teams. Perhaps the answer lies in a totally unified United Kingdom league, but I can't see that ever happening for about a million different reasons.

[tucker342]

I love Fox Sports World:)

Sometimes I'll watch a game like Cricket and just sit there trying to figure out the rules:D

[Sharpieman]

Oh and by the way, I think the interest of soccer is gaining speed here in the US. Its sad that the Euros don't tap into the US market more often. I think that Americans are very open to soccer at this point. I live near San Jose,CA and the Earthquakes have quite the following. Also, the large hispanic population in CA and in other areas adds the the following. If European teams played at least a few games over here, soccer would have the potential to become a more prevelant sport.

[Mac Howard]

The essence of the SPL problem is the size of the Scottish population - only around 5 million. If you consider that the EPL supports 20 teams (some of those not that well supported) from a population of around 45 million then Scotland can only give adequate support to something like two teams - Celtic and Rangers. All the rest struggle.

The result is that you don't have a very competitive league, the two teams dominate totally, which in turn reduces the interest and support.

The EPL is much better placed but even there a few teams have risen to the top. Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd have dominated for several years now and even Chelsea have needed the financial clout of a Russian billionaire to help them join the other two.

I think there are three influences which have brought this about:

1) the Bosman ruling
2) European Champion's League football
3) TV money

The first has given players much more influence on the direction of transfers. A player's wage demands are now comparable with the transfer fee and the quality players can choose the clubs they want to join. They want to join the "big" clubs, the only clubs that afford their wages, and so the best players tend to gravitate to a small number of "successful" clubs.

Also, large wages have a much more destructive effect on a clubs finances than transfer fees. Transfer fees go around and around - you pay 10 million for a striker but receive 5 million each for the two defenders you sold or you get the money back when he moves on - but wages go out of the game. Pay a player a couple of million in a year and it goes on flash cars, flash houses etc but is of no use to the club and is never recovered.

So only the "big" clubs can afford the best players.

The European Champion's League has become the big money spinner. It's seen as the pinnacle of the game and brings in much in the way of participation fees, bonus payments, commercial spinoffs and TV money. Only the top four clubs from the EPL go into the Champion's League and so those top clubs receive an enormous financial boost. That, in turn, leads to the ability to bring in the best players.

TV money is a major source of income for all clubs. TV viewers want to see the best and so the majority of TV money goes to the European Champions Leage and the EPL. The lower divisions receive a fraction of these fees. In fact, last season the TV contract for lower divisions collapsed leaving many clubs in dire financial straits.

The overall result is that "successful" clubs become even more successful. At the first level, being in the EPL is crucial to a good income. At the second level, playing in the European Champion's League (which only the top 4 clubs each season can do) leads to an enormous boost to income and consequently the players you can afford to include in your squad.

It's an exaggerated case of "success breeds success" and only a few clubs can benefit from that.

[bhlloy]

What Mac said... you have to be getting Champions League football to stay up there with the big boys because of the insane amounts of cash there are involved. Occasionally you get a team hanging around the top 5 that don't really belong there but it's very rare they last the whole season. Arsenal, United, Liverpool, Newcastle and now Chelsea can pretty much be relied on to be 5 of the top 6 every year.

Problem is trying to break that status quo is a big risk... teams like Leeds (and Middlesborough five or six years back) have tried and if you don't break into the all important champions league place at the end of the year you are in big trouble. Leeds spent big going all out for it two years ago, last year they paid the price and now they are over £80m in debt and trying to stay up with a squad full of 17 year olds and loan players. Their only hope is a takeover (someone like Abramovich) but nobody will take them on while they are relegation threatened and if they go down it could well be bye bye. Look at Huddersfield and Sheffield Wednesday (both in lower leagues now) as examples of teams who spent money, went down and paid horribly for it in the few years afterwards.

[Desnudo]

What Mac said... you have to be getting Champions League football to stay up there with the big boys because of the insane amounts of cash there are involved. Occasionally you get a team hanging around the top 5 that don't really belong there but it's very rare they last the whole season. Arsenal, United, Liverpool, Newcastle and now Chelsea can pretty much be relied on to be 5 of the top 6 every year.

Problem is trying to break that status quo is a big risk... teams like Leeds (and Middlesborough five or six years back) have tried and if you don't break into the all important champions league place at the end of the year you are in big trouble. Leeds spent big going all out for it two years ago, last year they paid the price and now they are over £80m in debt and trying to stay up with a squad full of 17 year olds and loan players. Their only hope is a takeover (someone like Abramovich) but nobody will take them on while they are relegation threatened and if they go down it could well be bye bye. Look at Huddersfield and Sheffield Wednesday (both in lower leagues now) as examples of teams who spent money, went down and paid horribly for it in the few years afterwards.

It never hurts to have mob billions behind you (unless you lose ;) ) like Abramovich. My advice to Leeds would be to seek a buyout from a Columbian cartel looking for a place to launder their money.

As for Celtic and Rangers, there was a proposal a while back to create an Atlantic league that would have included all the top teams from the smaller European countries, but it never came about. It's too bad. I think that Ajax vs. Celtic or Sporting vs. Rangers would be a lot more interesting twice a year than the current riff raff you see playing in lots of smaller countries top leagues these days.

[kserra]

Actually ESPN2 shows games every tuesday. Tomorrow they'll have Manchester United vs. FC Porto in an UEFA Cup match at 2:30 ET time. I used to have FOX Sports World but it just seemed too expensive to have.

Considering the financial situation with Celtic, its going to be sad to see Henrik Larrson leave and Celtic not pick up someone to replace him. They will probably just try to fill the very big gap with Sean Maloney.

Thanks for the heads up...never realized the Tuesday match was a regular event...it's certainly better than nothing...

Knowing very little about the finances of the EPL, do you guys think there is momentum for some form of revenue sharing, perhaps similar to what MLB does here in the States? Could we see a luxury tax or something along those lines? Or would the Big Guys cry foul and never go along with this?

In college football, if a team makes a bowl game, doesn't every team in the conference share that money? I'm assuming there is no such sharing when it comes to prize money earned in the European competitons...

Does a EPL team have to share revenue from home matches? Or do they get to keep all the gate receipts?

Full of questions I am! (among other things)

Kevin

[Mr. Wednesday]

Really though, it's about the only option we have here. Wish they'd play more EPL games and I guess they lost all the rights to air Scottish games or no one cared.

I just can't get into the South American games they broadcast. I dunno, I guess it's because I'm not at all familiar with the players.FSW does show a lot of European soccer. They usually have three or four EPL and/or FA Cup matches, plus a game from the Netherlands, Germany, and France. They certainly don't show majority South American, I don't think, at least not at the times I'm usually watching. From what I've seen, they pick up a Brasilian and an Argentinian game each week.

Plus, FSW Report is a totally awesome newscast!

[Desnudo]

You have to watch South American football. You get to see all the Champ Man wonderkids at work! The two Diegos, Tevez, Alex, Cavenaghi, etc..

[Mac Howard]

The large clubs won't take part in any finance sharing arrangements. Several clubs now are PLCs (Public Limited Companies) and are quoted on the stock exchange. I suspect there would be a legal challenge from share holders (most of whom have no interest in soccer at all) if any attempt was made to interfere with revenue generation. There's also the problem that, unlike USA games such as football and baseball, soccer is a world game and any restriction on EPL clubs would put them at a disadvantage in relation to other leagues - specifically Spanish and Italian clubs. Players would leave for the unencumbered clubs and the quality of the league would diminish - not something that would benefit EPL clubs.

And there's no way you're going to get all leagues to act in concert on this.

Here in Australia Fox Sports shows several EPL matches each week. In addition ESPN covers the European Champions League - I shall be up at 3 this morning watching the Man Utd - Porto game. Which reminds me. I should get to bed soon :rolleyes:

[Calis]

You have to watch South American football. You get to see all the Champ Man wonderkids at work! The two Diegos, Tevez, Alex, Cavenaghi, etc..

Don't forget Robinho! He's my boy.

Yeah I guess I should've specified more. I wish they'd show more Premier and La Liga games as those are about the only two I care to watch. ;)

The News Report is awesome. It's easily my most watched channel, so obviously they're doing something right!

Hmm, annoys me I'll be stuck at work when ESPN2 plays the ManU-Porto match.

[Desnudo]

Don't forget Robinho! He's my boy.

Yeah I guess I should've specified more. I wish they'd show more Premier and La Liga games as those are about the only two I care to watch. ;)

The News Report is awesome. It's easily my most watched channel, so obviously they're doing something right!

Hmm, annoys me I'll be stuck at work when ESPN2 plays the ManU-Porto match.

Robinho always underperforms for me so I don't particularly want to see him in real life. :D It's funny, but since all my name knowledge and talent awareness comes from Champ Man, my loyalties come from there as well. I'm still waiting for a game with Litex of Bulgaria so I can cheer on Anatoli Todorov. ;)

[daedalus]

I can't stand South American football, in spite of the amazing amount of talents. It feels like if anybody dares to get within 5 feet of another person they will be writhing on the ground in pain.

[SFL Cat]

As a more-or-less soccer-clueless person (I know the basic rules since my son played when he was a kid). How does MLS compare to the European or South American game? Could the better American league teams compete with any of the better clubs across the lake or below the equator?

[Calis]

As a more-or-less soccer-clueless person (I know the basic rules since my son played when he was a kid). How does MLS compare to the European or South American game? Could the better American league teams compete with any of the better clubs across the lake or below the equator?

No.

They're getting better though, and some of the MLS teams did go over to play in some European competitions this last year, albeit very minor ones. I think if we get the chance to meet up with them more often, and if we can bring some of our guys back that have experience in Europe back some time, we'll be shaping up good.

I don't think we're anywhere close to the level of the good teams. We're probably close with the adequate teams over there at best.

I might be biased though as I just don't enjoy watching the MLS.

[Mac Howard]

It's very difficult to compare teams from different leagues that don't interact but I suspect that the MLS teams would compete reasonably well in the English First Division (which is in fact the second division).

[WussGawd]

It's very difficult to compare teams from different leagues that don't interact but I suspect that the MLS teams would compete reasonably well in the English First Division (which is in fact the second division).

I've heard a few other folks say something like this as well. If so, that isn't bad for a league that hasn't even had its tenth anniversary yet.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I think the most optimistic people (within reason) would put MLS straddling the bottom end of the Premiership and the upper end of D1. There's no question in my mind that the better MLS sides wouldn't get run off the field against the top-table EPL teams, but they'd lose more than they'd win. It's not all that easy to compare, partly because MLS is a warm-weather league and Europe is cold-weather, so the pace of play is a lot different.

[kserra]

With more teams in the MLS now building soccer-only facilities, hopefully the MLS will continue to get stronger. There's no doubt that the money is here in the States to make the league a worldwide force...it may never be able to fully match the top leagues, but with corporate money, plus the ever increasing popularity of the sport over here, some of the MLS teams may be able to compete at a very respectable level...

I believe the real key is for the US National team to consistently do well in international events...

As someone new to the game (beginning with CM 01/02), the last World Cup was one of the most enjoyable events to watch in my sporting life...if the Americans can provide that level of play all the time, I think the money will flow into the MLS and you'll see even more great American athletes making a name for themselves in soccer...

The constant question to me in this equation is what would a Michael Jordan look like as a striker? If US soccer could tap even 1% more of the top talent in America, we would have an excellent team capable of putting up top notch performances on the international stage...

Kevin

[Desnudo]

I think Freddy Adu could revolutionize the game in the US. When that guy matures there will be a whole generation of kids that stick with the game past middle school. He has the flair to really ignite some passion that's been missing due to the US' bland style of play. Now all they need to do is hire Pele as US National coach.

[Desnudo]

I think the most optimistic people (within reason) would put MLS straddling the bottom end of the Premiership and the upper end of D1. There's no question in my mind that the better MLS sides wouldn't get run off the field against the top-table EPL teams, but they'd lose more than they'd win. It's not all that easy to compare, partly because MLS is a warm-weather league and Europe is cold-weather, so the pace of play is a lot different.

Plus you have to overcome the institutional arrogance of the European clubs and fans that makes it hard to correctly slot teams. I think that the top few teams in the MLS could easily hang in the lower to mid table of the EPL or La Liga. If you watch the EPL, the matches not involving the big five don't seem all that different from MLS matches.

[Mac Howard]

I understand that there are more registered soccer players in the USA than in the UK (remember you have 5 times the population of most European countries so you don't need all your best athletes to compete with them). I don't think there's any doubt that you can raise the quality of the league up to that of the European leagues eventually. But you need to keep your better players and draw in players from abroad and perhaps better coaches. That means bringing more money into the game.

I think the league is going in the right direction but would love to see the salary cap go - with soccer a world game you're operating in a free market and can't operate a salary cap and keep the quality players (unless it's a lot higher than it is now).

[Wolfpack]

The problem with killing the cap is that while there is money flowing into MLS, it still isn't that rich, compared to the big four sports in America. NASL didn't have a cap and got killed when they signed aging European and Latin American stars to big deals but couldn't pay them because they didn't take in enough money. The cap is kind of a necessary evil for the time being. In addition, it probably keeps some form of parity in the league. A fledgling league can't afford to have some of its franchises go into the tank because they can't compete year after year at the start. Even so, both Florida teams went under anyway.

[Desnudo]

Yes, I think MSL would love not to have a salary cap, but it would equal death to the league to remove it.

[bhlloy]

MLS teams skillwise could hang with most EPL teams, but physically just couldn't deal with the English game. I'd agree with whoever said they would be bottom end of EPL/ top end of D1.

I've watched a lot of MLS while I've been in the States and it's a good standard, full of players who couldn't quite make it over here though because they either couldn't deal with or didn't want to deal with the more physical, defensive style.

[ice4277]

So, to look at it in another way, which European country's top division does the MLS stack up against talent-wise? Would it be equivalent to, say, the Dutch league? I know the top 3 Dutch teams would probably be better, but beyond that, I think the MLS could definitely hold its own. Portugal? Maybe even France?

[rexallllsc]

Anyone have pictures of the Scottish stadums in question?

[Desnudo]

So, to look at it in another way, which European country's top division does the MLS stack up against talent-wise? Would it be equivalent to, say, the Dutch league? I know the top 3 Dutch teams would probably be better, but beyond that, I think the MLS could definitely hold its own. Portugal? Maybe even France?

I think you could say that the top three Euro leagues are England, Spain, and Italy with Germany fourth. I think that outside that, the MLS can compete with any league.

[Crapshoot]

I think you could say that the top three Euro leagues are England, Spain, and Italy with Germany fourth. I think that outside that, the MLS can compete with any league.

No chance- the French, Dutch, Turkish, and Greek leagues are far better than the MLS- in terms of pure talent.Hell, I think the Argentinian league is probably better talent wise as well...

[Desnudo]

Have you seen a Dutch league match outside of PSV or Ajax? *shudders* And the no chance comment makes my earlier point about European arrogance regarding the quality of football in America. It's the same arrogance that Americans had about basketball before our boys got whipped.

[Crapshoot]

Have you seen a Dutch league match outside of PSV or Ajax? *shudders* And the no chance comment makes my earlier point about European arrogance regarding the quality of football in America. It's the same arrogance that Americans had about basketball before our boys got whipped.

Im hardly a European- and yes, I have; and the point is the talent level is still higher- pick the median MLS team and peg it against a Gronigen or A Herenveen- My money's on the dutch side. Even then- you can't ignore the top level teams and then claim the league is better. The MLS structure is better suited to less discrepency between the teams- that much I concede but not overall talent. And do you believe there are MLS teams capable of contending with any of the following teams over a full season :

Galatasary /Bestikas/Ajax/PSV/Olympiakos/Panathanaikos/PSG/Marseille /Monaco/Lyon/Nantes/Auxerre/Lens/Feyenoord/Bordeaux/ Utrech/Twente....

Sure, Im picking the cream- but I sincierly doubt that they would have any hope in either the French or Turkish leagues, and quite possibly the Dutch; the Greek might be close, but they still have more national and international talent playing there.

[Desnudo]

I don't know, it'd be interesting to find out if say, San Jose, could hang in some of the mid-level European leagues. I don't think they'd be fighting for first, but I definitely think they'd be able to achieve mid-table. A start would be for the US to get slots in the Copa Libertadores. That would be a nice barometer as to how far the US talent has really progressed.

You are right in the fact that the top teams in the various leagues definitely have more talent. As long as the salary cap is in place, that will always be true.

[Crapshoot]

I don't know, it'd be interesting to find out if say, San Jose, could hang in some of the mid-level European leagues. I don't think they'd be fighting for first, but I definitely think they'd be able to achieve mid-table. A start would be for the US to get slots in the Copa Libertadores. That would be a nice barometer as to how far the US talent has really progressed.

You are right in the fact that the top teams in the various leagues definitely have more talent. As long as the salary cap is in place, that will always be true.

true dat. I don't know about San Jose- think about it this way- the best player by a mile (donavon, who has genuine world class potentiaL) was being recruited by Portsmouth- bottom feeders who are likely to end up in D1 when its all said and done. Mind you, 2 years from now- Leverkusen is going to have themselves a damn good player (When his loan expires). For now though, if the best player in the league is only attracting attention as a part time starter on a bottom feeder, I doubt they could hang in the league. I think US team in the Copa would be nice- I think them competing in the haphazard hell that is the Copa America consistently would be another good step. More so, there's a lot of potential here for football - and I think the MLS is slowly gaining mainstream acceptance, and will feel it moreso when today 15-16 year old enter the potential market.

[Calis]

Hmm, wishful thinking here, but seeing as how I'm stuck at work while Celtic play Barca, I was wondering if anyone knows of a place that offers radio webcasts of matches?

I'm not having a whole lot of luck looking around, but there's gotta be something around...this is the frigging internet!

Love to be able to listen to the game since I won't be able to watch it.

[Desnudo]

true dat. I don't know about San Jose- think about it this way- the best player by a mile (donavon, who has genuine world class potentiaL) was being recruited by Portsmouth- bottom feeders who are likely to end up in D1 when its all said and done. Mind you, 2 years from now- Leverkusen is going to have themselves a damn good player (When his loan expires). For now though, if the best player in the league is only attracting attention as a part time starter on a bottom feeder, I doubt they could hang in the league. I think US team in the Copa would be nice- I think them competing in the haphazard hell that is the Copa America consistently would be another good step. More so, there's a lot of potential here for football - and I think the MLS is slowly gaining mainstream acceptance, and will feel it moreso when today 15-16 year old enter the potential market.

Well I was using San Jose as an example since they won it all. Obviously MLS has talent as exports Tim Howard and Carlos Bocanegra attest. Just because they don't all end up playing in the EPL doesn't mean they aren't talent worthy. I haven't seen a whole lot of players from RKC Waalwijk make an impact in the EPL either. I thought we were talking about the ability to compete in a mid-level Euro league?

[condors]

the bruce arena coached dc united squads that won 3 titles in 4 years had alot of talent that has performed for national teams. It is a shame not many people saw the team compete as it played the game at a high level. That team did compete successfully against teams from south america (in the cups that they compete in) this success hasn't been repeated although sj did ok a couple years back, i think a problem is the best players in the mls will move on so while the teams may get a class player he won't stay there makes it tough. I am a crew fan and my favorite player on the team was brian mcbride. I am no longer be able to see him play on a regular basis. I am happy for him as a player to get to play in the premiership for fulham but the hardest working team is going to have to work a little harder without him. If the team recieved X amount of dollars and was able to put that back into the squad it wouldn't bother me as much but the mls the league gets the money and gives out compensation.

I really hope freddy adu brings more attention to the mls and maybe that will help the league but if he is as good as advertised he will be overseas playing when he is considered good enough for first team football

[OldGiants]

Just a few stray thoughts:

1) The BBC website offers live radio coverage of matches. Its hit-or-miss, but sometimes there's a good match on.

2) Mexican futbol sucks big time. Sunday afternoon broadcasts are from largely empty stadiums and the play is of the "one touch, straight to the opposition" variety. Other than the cool Puma logo, I can't get all that involved in the play.

3) ESPN2 Champions League broadcast is, at best, only every other week, istn't it?

4) In the Baltimore-Richmond area, Comcast shows tapes of Sunday EPL games on Wednesday at 1PM, which is pretty much for me, other than listening to the scrambled pay-per-view broadcasts.

[Crapshoot]

Regarding 3- right now, that's because the matches are every two weeks. They show one champions league match here for every week in which there is a fixture(s).