SP = QB?

[Ksyrup]

I have to admit that I have never given this a thought in my life, and to my knowledge, it's never been brought up (certainly not like it has with QBs). But this is from Gammons' recent article:


"The Miami Herald pointed out an astounding fact: unless Edwin Jackson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7241) and Dewon Brazelton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6786) make the Dodgers and/or Devil Rays rotations, the African-American starting pitchers in the major leagues will only be Darren Oliver (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5127) and Willis with the Marlins and C.C. Sabathia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6603) with the Indians. "That is a reflection on how few African-Americans are playing enough baseball to build up their arms as kids," says one executive. "It's also a reflection on how fast we tend to typecast them and make them relievers."


Is there something to this? Are black pitchers "typecast" as relievers versus starters, in the same way black QBs are/were discounted? Is it the supposed intelligence factor?

Very interesting, and something I had never even considered before I read this.

[Ksyrup]

Something else I also learned from Gammons' article - in the Italian baseball league, they give yellow cards.

[Maple Leafs]

Is there something to this? Are black pitchers "typecast" as relievers versus starters, in the same way black QBs are/were discounted? Is it the supposed intelligence factor?What an odd stat.

Not sure what sort of social engineering would be going on here, although if I had to guess it might be that scouts still think of blacks as more "atheletic", which would push them towards the other positions where speed is more important. Just a thought.

On a sidenote, are the Angels not going to use Kelvim Escobar as a starter?

[General Mike]

What an odd stat.
On a sidenote, are the Angels not going to use Kelvim Escobar as a starter?
I think it depends on whether they can get what they are looking for for Sele or one of the other SP. Chief Rum would probably be able to comment on it better tho.

[Ksyrup]

Escobar is from Venezuela. I think he's referring to US-born blacks, although he doesn't say that.

Edit: he refers to "African American," so my guess is that he wasn't referring to Latin American-blacks.

[John Galt]

I found it interesting as well. I have no idea what the answer is to Gammon's question, but I applaud him for bringing the issue up. Very interesting.

[Subby]

The crazy thing is that blacks deal with the heat better than whites!!!

[Ksyrup]

The crazy thing is that blacks deal with the heat better than whites!!!
Quick, someone put Dusty's mom on the payroll. We could have a revolution of black starting pitchers in the majors!

[Desnudo]

I have to admit that I have never given this a thought in my life, and to my knowledge, it's never been brought up (certainly not like it has with QBs). But this is from Gammons' recent article:


"The Miami Herald pointed out an astounding fact: unless Edwin Jackson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7241) and Dewon Brazelton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6786) make the Dodgers and/or Devil Rays rotations, the African-American starting pitchers in the major leagues will only be Darren Oliver (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5127) and Willis with the Marlins and C.C. Sabathia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6603) with the Indians. "That is a reflection on how few African-Americans are playing enough baseball to build up their arms as kids," says one executive. "It's also a reflection on how fast we tend to typecast them and make them relievers."


Is there something to this? Are black pitchers "typecast" as relievers versus starters, in the same way black QBs are/were discounted? Is it the supposed intelligence factor?

Very interesting, and something I had never even considered before I read this.

That's a really strange quote from that executive. And why seperate American blacks from non-American blacks if part of your story is that race is a determining factor in where players play?

[General Mike]

That's a really strange quote from that executive. And why seperate American blacks from non-American blacks if part of your story is that race is a determining factor in where players play?

Because the difference between the culture in the dominican republic, cuba or several other latin countries and the culture in america. In the Dominican Republic baseball is life for the kids. In America, the youth have more options like basketball, football and soccer.

[Young Drachma]

Its a really interesting story. I think schools are spending more time/money recruiting black players for money sports. Even with the development of baseball in urban areas, I think people are more concerned with going overseas for talent. For teams, its less about what kind of talent you get and more about more talent, for less money.

I don't think anyone is interested in going to these areas themselves to develop the players because of all the other issues. I think with the new MLB urban academy they're building, that's going to help. But...its an interesting situation, to be sure.

[Ben E Lou]

I have my doubts that there is any sort of overt racism at work here. However, I'll bet there's some stereotyping (but also some smart managing) going on at the high school level. Specifically, it is quite common to see an all-white infield and an all-white outfield at the high school level.

My favorite one is this though: I have often seen when we play schools that are heavy majority white, that they'll have one black kid on the baseball team, and he's starting in center field, even if he can't hit at all. They'll find the one of the fastest black kids in the school, convince him to play baseball, stick him out in CF to run down everything in the gaps, and use the DH for him.

In all seriousness, to make a blatant generalization, at the high school level, baseball is considered a "white" sport by most black kids. At Tucker, where the other major sports are usually fairly heavily majority black (and the school is split pretty evenly overall), there are only four black kids that get much playing time on the baseball team. Interestingly enough, two of them are starting pitchers. (They were also the #1 and #2 QB's on the football team, D.T. McDowell and Raejon Alexander for those who followed the dynasty...) And yes, the other two are outfielders. ;)

[Young Drachma]

I doubt anything that happens anymore is overt racism. Well, I think even at majority black schools, baseball is considered a Hispanic sport. But I think that's where coaches and institutions come in to change these perceptions.

A good example of this is tennis. The place I come from in New Jersey is predominately black. The tennis program for many, many years (though the lean years are apparently upon them now) was always in the upper echelon of programs in its region - not elite - but in terms of just sheer producing players, not just for the HS tennis team, but for tennis teams at some of the better private and prep programs in the state, we did that and then some.

The side note here is, tennis is considered a "white, country club" sport by anyone's account. But the overwhelming majority of the kids playing were and always have been - black. The facility is one of the best in the Northeast and people flock there in droves from other places to go through our programs and learn from our coaches.

The point here is, it can be done. Does it take work? Of course. But I think the problem with so-called "underrepresentation" in some areas, rather than others is about people thinking they have "realistic" options in one activity, sport, major or job..versus another.

There is a debate raging on another board I belong to as to why at an elite national debate tournament, only 28% of the participants are going to be women. Some people said women are less likely to want to debate. But anyone here who is married or has been, knows that bullshit. I think its about people deterring them and discouraging girls from being "bitchy" or coming off like snobs, because it turns judges off.

The point of this ranting post is...I think the issue isn't about an inability, lack of desire or anything. Its about motivating kids to believe they can and people providing them with an inroads or just access - not a handout or anything.

[General Mike]

I have my doubts that there is any sort of overt racism at work here. However, I'll bet there's some stereotyping (but also some smart managing) going on at the high school level. Specifically, it is quite common to see an all-white infield and an all-white outfield at the high school level.

My favorite one is this though: I have often seen when we play schools that are heavy majority white, that they'll have one black kid on the baseball team, and he's starting in center field, even if he can't hit at all. They'll find the one of the fastest black kids in the school, convince him to play baseball, stick him out in CF to run down everything in the gaps, and use the DH for him.

In all seriousness, to make a blatant generalization, at the high school level, baseball is considered a "white" sport by most black kids. At Tucker, where the other major sports are usually fairly heavily majority black (and the school is split pretty evenly overall), there are only four black kids that get much playing time on the baseball team. Interestingly enough, two of them are starting pitchers. (They were also the #1 and #2 QB's on the football team, D.T. McDowell and Raejon Alexander for those who followed the dynasty...) And yes, the other two are outfielders. ;)

I think the same thing happens here. I can't give accurate numbers for the racial breakdown, but I'd say its something like 40% white, 40% black, 20% everything else. I don't want to make generalizations but I don't remember any african-americans on the baseball team while I was there. It was mostly white with a decent mix of latinos. The top african-american athletes in the school all went the football to basketball or winter track to spring track route. I'm not sure its racism, and I don't want this to sound like a racist comment, but I think part of the reason is money. A good aluminum baseball bat is gonna cost in the $200. A good baseball glove is gonna be more than $100 and a pair of cleats is probably another $100. For some familys that money's just not feasible. Now some people will say that how can family's in the Dominican Republic or Cuba or Venezuela or wherever afford that, but major league teams have their baseball academies down there and everyone hears the stories about the kids playing baseball with a milk carton glove, etc.

[Ben E Lou]

I have my doubts that there is any sort of overt racism at work here. However, I'll bet there's some stereotyping (but also some smart managing) going on at the high school level. Specifically, it is quite common to see an all-white infield and an all-white outfield at the high school level.

My favorite one is this though: I have often seen when we play schools that are heavy majority white, that they'll have one black kid on the baseball team, and he's starting in center field, even if he can't hit at all. They'll find the one of the fastest black kids in the school, convince him to play baseball, stick him out in CF to run down everything in the gaps, and use the DH for him.

In all seriousness, to make a blatant generalization, at the high school level, baseball is considered a "white" sport by most black kids. At Tucker, where the other major sports are usually fairly heavily majority black (and the school is split pretty evenly overall), there are only four black kids that get much playing time on the baseball team. Interestingly enough, two of them are starting pitchers. (They were also the #1 and #2 QB's on the football team, D.T. McDowell and Raejon Alexander for those who followed the dynasty...) And yes, the other two are outfielders. ;)Update:

I just got back from a JV game. At least at Tucker, the game may be coming back among black kids. The starting nine on the JV team consisted of 5 black kids (C,SS,LF,CF,RF), and four white kids (1B,3B,P,2B), and the bench was mostly black as well. In addition, the Varsity players were finishing up a workout, and the coaches were working with Mike Compton (WR/CB from the football dynasty) in the bullpen. He hasn't pitched this year, but is a gifted athlete, and only a sophomore, and obviously he's being groomed for next season when D.T. and Raejon have graduated.

I'm not sure its racism, and I don't want this to sound like a racist comment, but I think part of the reason is money.I think that may be a contributing factor as well. There are two heavy-majority black (as in 95% plus) schools in my neck of the woods with very solid baseball programs--Stephenson and Southwest DeKalb. Those two school districts happen to comprise a good portion of one of the largest middle-to-upper-middle-class black populations in the country. Also, the great majority of the black kids in Tucker's strong baseball program are from homes that are solidly middle class or higher as well. The other heavy-majority black schools around here typically don't field strong baseball teams.

[Franklinnoble]

I think there's some overt racism going on in the NBA, as there are hardly any white americans in the league that are any good.

And when is the NFL going to stop discriminating against white running backs?

This prejudicial treatment has crushed my self-esteem, and I want some large civil rights organization to sue somebody on my behalf.