School Policies: Zero Tolerance=Zero Sense.

[SirFozzie]

Got this from Ananova, Through Sky News

An American pupil has been expelled from school for taking scissors to a sewing class.

Jacob Finklea, 12, had taken them to his school in Indiana to make a set of pillows, but was booted out under his school's zero tolerance policy.

According to Skynews,Jacob said the teacher had told the pupils to put all their supplies on the table.

He said: "I put the scissors on the desk and she just freaked out."

Jacob's mother, Chrystal, said her son had hurt his hands while using a school set of scissors so she gave him a pair from home.

School chiefs across America have operated a zero tolerance policy since the 1999 Columbine High School killings.

A spokesman for Jacob's school in Pike Township said it "vigorously defended" the procedure.

[yabanci]

part of the the war against terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

[finkenst]

wah wah wah...

you knew the rules.
you broke 'em.

pay the price.

[sabotai]

Dude, it was a pair of scissors. My school sure didn't make it widely known if it was against the rules or not to bring in a pair of scissors. How do you know that the mother knew that her kid would get expelled for taking a pair of scissors to school?

[finkenst]

right, she must live in a vacuum and doesn't know about other incidents in other school systems? are people really that naive?

oh wait..
indiana.. i should have known.

and don't you think her son would know?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[jetpunk2000]

wah wah wah...

you knew the rules.
you broke 'em.

pay the price.

It's a 12 year old kid. Kids are fragile enough at that age educationally. It's stupidity like this that makes it virtually impossible to educate kids these days. How are you supposed to build relationships as a teacher when simple one track minded board members don't take context into account? The kid should've been told not to bring scissors to class. If he does it again and you want to take action against him or the parents, fine. Try building the trust of a 12 year old if you're a teacher after an incident like this. It isn't easy.

[sabotai]

right, she must live in a vacuum and doesn't know about other incidents in other school systems?

Please provide a link to a news story of another kid who got expelled for taking a pair of scissors to school.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Isn't it the school's responsibility to let the parents know what their kids can and can not take into school?

[jetpunk2000]

Please provide a link to a news story of another kid who got expelled for taking a pair of scissors to school.



Isn't it the school's responsibility to let the parents know what their kids can and can not take into school?


Unfortunately most districts will tell you this AFTER you've done something wrong.

[finkenst]

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/8033026.htm


http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0204/125963.html

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/thestandard/news_detail_frame.cfm?articleid=45364&intcatid=1

[Tigercat]

right, she must live in a vacuum and doesn't know about other incidents in other school systems? are people really that naive?

oh wait..
indiana.. i should have known.

and don't you think her son would know?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

And you think a 12 year old should know he/she couldn't bring a pair of scissors to school? Do you honestly think a 12 year old would risk being expelled by bringing a pair of scissors to school to sew with? Do you think the parent would risk it? Your logic is seriously flawed.

School is supposed to be for the people it SERVES, the people don't serve the schools and the school rules. When a bullcrap rule that parents and students don't know about does nothing but harm, through suspension, one of the people the system is suppose to help, that is crap.

Zero tolerence when it comes to things like scissors is written so the school can have it easy. Well running a school is never going to be easy, a kid can just as easily hurt another person with their fist as they can scissors if thats what they want to do.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Please provide a link to a news story of another kid who got expelled for taking a pair of scissors to school.
From Colorado
http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/colo/colo187.htm

From New York (read down, it's mentioned as part of a broader story)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/164520p-144170c.html

That's two, just from the first page of a quick Google search that went on for nearly a dozen pages.

And there was no shortage of links to school policies, handbooks, conduct guides, etc which listed scissors among their prohibited items to bring on campus.

[sabotai]

finkenst, that's not what I asked for. None of those talked about a school expelling someone for simply bringing in a pair of scissors, they were about stabbings with scissors.

I could probably find stories of stabbings with pens and pencils. Let's start expelling kids for bringing in those...

[sabotai]

Thanks Jon, that's more like it.

EDIT: But the question still remains. Did this particular school inform this particular parent that scissors, along with everything else, was not allowed to be brought to school?

[finkenst]

finkenst, that's not what I asked for. None of those talked about a school expelling someone for simply bringing in a pair of scissors, they were about stabbings with scissors.

I could probably find stories of stabbings with pens and pencils. Let's start expelling kids for bringing in those...
whoops..

mea culpa..

i misread...

i gotta read the back of my eyelids more.

[Craptacular]

Can you still wear clothes to school, or are they afraid you'll pull them off and choke someone with them?

[yabanci]

The most dangerous 12 year-old kid in america: sewing boy. It's no longer the young gang banger, the drug addict, or even the thrench coat mafia that we must fear, it is those young boys who like to sit around and sew pillow sets in their spare time. They are the real threats, so I support this school and their efforts to keep America's schools safe. It's about time we get tough with these little hooligans and teach them the meaning of punishment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Seems to me that there may be some other factors in play here. Which, as I believe have been discussed here before, the schools aren't really free to discuss.

"Finklea said Jacob (pictured, right) excelled in elementary school but has had trouble transitioning to Lincoln Middle School, including a suspension during the first semester for bad behavior. Finklea said her son was targeted by bullies and was forced to defend himself. "
http://www.theindychannel.com/education/2893125/detail.html

[Easy Mac]

If you're a boy taking sewing class, of course you'll be picked on.

[kserra]

Why isn't anyone mentioning the teacher in this case???

What self-respecting, intelligent teacher would see a kid bring a pair of scissors to a sewing class and proceed to send the kid to the office and report this "offense."

Don't you think the teacher could've asked the kid about the scissors? Maybe even remind him about the schools policy, take the scissors, and hell, even call the parents, but WHY, OH WHY, would you take it this far?

I'm a teacher...I think, in your classroom, you need to be totally aware of your students and develop a good sense for each of your students, as much as possible...But most of all, be an advocate for kids...this clearly was not a case of a troubled student bringing a weapon to school to do bodily harm...this teacher, to me, appears to lack any common sense, and now, a 12 year old kid is going to pay a massive price for perhaps a minor discretion...

I agree that rules need to be followed, but take some responsibility for your classroom and handle this situation intelligently...seriously...

Kevin

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm a teacher...I think, in your classroom, you need to be totally aware of your students and develop a good sense for each of your students, as much as possible... And you're somehow sure that this isn't exactly what caused the teacher to handle the situation the way they did?

...this clearly was not a case of a troubled student bringing a weapon to school to do bodily harm... Clearly? I don't believe you can make that call without being aware of more facts in the case. Nor can I say that it was a great call without more facts either. (I'm working from the assumption that you're following this through the media, just like me).

And among the few possible mitigating facts we have is that the student had been suspended once for behavioral issues. That alone indicates to me that there's at least one possible reason that a teacher might lean toward erring on the side of caution.

Not trying to beat you up here, just offering some points to ponder.

{And I'm now marveling at the odd spectacle of me defending a teacher to another teacher. That is not usually how these things go for me http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif}

[kserra]

Good points regarding the unknowns...guess I'm assuming (make an ass out of you and me, hate that saying :) ) that this kid was not a serious threat to school safety to begin with...quite honestly I've seen kids get suspended now for things that I did as a student that used to only receive minor attention, if any at all...usually a result of an administrator being sure to cover themselves legally (which they must do nowadays) I don't automatically assume a kids a bad seed if he's been suspended...

In terms of fights in school, almost all schools I know of will suspend ALL parties, regardless of the events surrounding the conflict...you could be defending the honor of some helpless little freshmen girl against a nasty 19 year old senior and still be suspended if you are involved in any sort of scuffle (seen that happen too)...

But again, no one knows, right now, who this kid really is...I just tend to protect the kid first, because it kills me when I see an adult overreact or prejudge a kid based on limited information... (bleeding heart, I know...its why I teach)

Kevin

And you're somehow sure that this isn't exactly what caused the teacher to handle the situation the way they did?

Clearly? I don't believe you can make that call without being aware of more facts in the case. Nor can I say that it was a great call without more facts either. (I'm working from the assumption that you're following this through the media, just like me).

And among the few possible mitigating facts we have is that the student had been suspended once for behavioral issues. That alone indicates to me that there's at least one possible reason that a teacher might lean toward erring on the side of caution.

Not trying to beat you up here, just offering some points to ponder.

{And I'm now marveling at the odd spectacle of me defending a teacher to another teacher. That is not usually how these things go for me http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif}

[Barkeep49]

I don't know about the rules where this happened but here explusions have to get school board approval. Having attended several school board meetings and knowing a couple of the members, I can't imagine a kid gets expelled who really doesn't deserve it. I don't know if there's the same appeals process elsewhere, but I have complete confidence that if a kid gets expelled here even for something rediculous like this that it was a result of a lot of very warmhearted and sympathetic adults saying it was the right decision.

[sterlingice]

The most dangerous 12 year-old kid in america: sewing boy.
yabanci definitely gets my quote of the day award, if i had one. :D

I can just hear some announcer's voice "That's right boys and girls, it's time for the most dangerous 12 year old kid in America: Sewing Boy! He even made his own cape!"

SI

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Wait. Was he running with the said scissors? Cuz I could see it then. That's dangerous, man.




Since nobody else posted a link to this story, I did a google search on his name and found several.

Here's one:

http://www.theindychannel.com/education/2893125/detail.html

[sterlingice]

Wait. Was he running with the said scissors? Cuz I could see it then. That's dangerous, man.
Yes, this is a picture of the culprit:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000JH89.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Glengoyne]

Why isn't anyone mentioning the teacher in this case???

What self-respecting, intelligent teacher would see a kid bring a pair of scissors to a sewing class and proceed to send the kid to the office and report this "offense."

Don't you think the teacher could've asked the kid about the scissors? Maybe even remind him about the schools policy, take the scissors, and hell, even call the parents, but WHY, OH WHY, would you take it this far?

I'm a teacher...I think, in your classroom, you need to be totally aware of your students and develop a good sense for each of your students, as much as possible...But most of all, be an advocate for kids...this clearly was not a case of a troubled student bringing a weapon to school to do bodily harm...this teacher, to me, appears to lack any common sense, and now, a 12 year old kid is going to pay a massive price for perhaps a minor discretion...

I agree that rules need to be followed, but take some responsibility for your classroom and handle this situation intelligently...seriously...

Kevin
A friend's father is the principal of a high school, well used to be. While in that role he had to suspend/expell a student who had brought a dagger to school. The student was on track to be the valedictorian. The dagger in question was a Sikh ceremonial dagger. He had been bringing the dagger with him to school as long as he had been attending. Most students were completely unaware of it. He pissed someone off, and that someone reported it to the school as a weapon. My friends father had to write a letter to the school board reccomending they expell him. It was mandated by the school board's policies. He also said in the letter that he felt so strongly about the case, that he would appear before them while they addressed the issue. When he stood up, and asked them not to expell the student the board was pretty well displeased. He then pointed out that he had NO leeway on the issue. Their rules required that he ask them to expell one of his best students, who was most likely only in this trouble because of the shallow biggotry of a fellow student. In the end they settled on a ten day suspension, and I believe he was no longer allowed to bring the dagger to school. It is a good thing that happened 10 years ago, today with the zero tollerance garbage reason wouldn't have had a chance.

[yabanci]

The penitentiary is the only place for these weapons bearing little ruffians.

[Ben E Lou]

While there are some "unknown" elements in this particular case, I've seen some other "zero-tolerance" issues that are absurd. The worst was this one:

A fairly troubled teen in my community (call him "Chuck"--not his real name) started working after school last spring. Chuck's primary motivation wasn't as much to make money as "to keep myself out of trouble by staying busy." (His exact words to me.) He was doing some pretty hard manual labor work in the Georgia spring sun, and one evening he got home dog-tired, left a few materials in the back of his pickup, and went straight to bed. He slept fairly late the next morning, and rushed out the door, forgetting that among the materials in the back of his truck was a small pocket-knife. He arrived at school just a couple of minutes before the tardy bell and ran inside, never thinking about the contraband in the bed of his pickup.

Guess what happened that day at school??? Yes, sports fans, a kid who had a past disagreement with Chuck over a girl went out to his car at lunchtime, walked past Chuck's vehicle, noticed the pocket-knife, and turned him in. Under Zero-Tolerance, Chuck was arrested, went to JAIL (he was 18), and was expelled for the rest of his senior year.

I talked with the principal, Chuck, and the Chuck's parents about this situation. All agreed (even the principal) that expulsion was the worst thing that could happen for this kid, right when he was trying to get his life together. The principal was as frustrated as anyone, but he felt that his hands were completely tied by "zero tolerance."

The problem with "zero tolerance" is that it causes educated men and women to have no choice but to ignore their own common sense and intuition regarding a given situation. In most situations, criminal intent is a factor. Zero Tolerance removes intent from the equation. Chuck was sitting in a classroom a good 100 yards from that little pocket-knife. Where was the criminal intent there???

Wasn't there a situation where a kid was suspended/expelled for having a butter knife in the back seat of their car on campus also?

[Ben E Lou]

BIZARRE ZERO TOLERANCE STUFF

First-grader suspended for having plastic knife. (http://www.channelcincinnati.com/education/2027051/detail.html)

8th-grade girl suspended for taking butter knife in her lunch to slice her apple (http://www.theleafchronicle.com/news/stories/20031006/localnews/397531.html)

Honor student expelled when grandmother's bread knife falls out of box in bed of his pickup. (http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2002/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/20/bread.knife.expulsion.ap/)

[yabanci]

These little maniacs are armed to the hilt with the most dastardly of weapons.

[kserra]

The problem with "zero tolerance" is that it causes educated men and women to have no choice but to ignore their own common sense and intuition regarding a given situation. In most situations, criminal intent is a factor. Zero Tolerance removes intent from the equation. Chuck was sitting in a classroom a good 100 yards from that little pocket-knife. Where was the criminal intent there???


Very true SkyDog...

I believe that these Zero tolerance policies are knee jerk reactions designed to assure parents and the community that their kids are safe, when in reality, all it really does is eliminate any other options a school has in disciplining a student in a particular case...whether these policies actually add to the safety of a school, I'm not sure...

Kevin

[rkmsuf]

It's amazing any of us survived our formative years without this protection from scissors...

[JAG]

I always hated using scissors anyway. I could never cut straight.

[ice4277]

What they REALLY need to outlaw are protractors. I think I must have stabbed myself a hundred times with one of those things.

[Tekneek]

Zero tolerance is dumb policy. Human beings have the ability to reason and make judgment calls. We should use it all of the time instead of dumbing ourselves down into zero-tolerance "I can't weigh the facts" type of rules/laws.

[rkmsuf]

What they REALLY need to outlaw are protractors. I think I must have stabbed myself a hundred times with one of those things.

Pencils used improperly can be deadly. We should go to all finger paints...

[-Mojo Jojo-]

The most dangerous 12 year-old kid in america: sewing boy.

This expulsion is just part of a pre-emptive campaign against gay marriage... Now it all makes sense :D

[Ksyrup]

You've apparently never gotten paint in your eyes...

[panerd]

What they REALLY need to outlaw are protractors. I think I must have stabbed myself a hundred times with one of those things.

Or possibly banning compasses. Seeing as protractors are usually round, unsharp, plastic devices used to measure angles.

[rkmsuf]

You've apparently never gotten paint in your eyes...

Good point...let's just have them sit and stare all day in a big empty room just to be sure...

[panerd]

Seems to me that there may be some other factors in play here. Which, as I believe have been discussed here before, the schools aren't really free to discuss.[i][font=verdana][size=2]


Yep. This gets brought up in most discussions and people just ignore it and continue to talk about how they could use scissors as a kid. We just had a kid expelled from my school for not walking back with his class from lunch. Oh by the way, he has been in trouble for this 10 times and had been written up by teachers for fighting, swearing at teachers, sexual harrassment, among other things. But what makes a better headline?

My only problem with the schools is they are such pussies and scared of being sued that they don't come forward and defend their decision to suspend the boy by explaining the real background of the situation. (Like if my principal knew I was posting the paragraph above he would crap his pants) So I think zero tolerance is a combination of scared school districts and an uneducated public (can't think of the right word. I am not trying to say they are stupid, I am trying to say they don't know the specifics of the situation) which turn into these big news stories and threads.

[GrantDawg]

This is one of those issues that I can't see why it hasn't changed yet. Everyone I talk to agrees "zero-tolerance" is stupid, yet nothing has been done to change it (quite the opposite).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Everyone I talk to agrees "zero-tolerance" is stupid, yet nothing has been done to change it (quite the opposite).
Just so you can change that statement in the future to "nearly everyone" ...
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

More often than not, I find that have more confidence in "zero-tolerance" policies than I do in "judgement calls".

[JAG]

Good point...let's just have them sit and stare all day in a big empty room just to be sure...

That might be bad for their eyes. Maybe they can sit with their eyes closed.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Just so you can change that statement in the future to "nearly everyone" ...
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

More often than not, I find that have more confidence in "zero-tolerance" policies than I do in "judgement calls".

Of course, that's your judgement call... :p

[GrantDawg]

Just so you can change that statement in the future to "nearly everyone" ...
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

More often than not, I find that have more confidence in "zero-tolerance" policies than I do in "judgement calls".
I can always count on you to be contrary, Jon. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Of course, that's your judgement call... :p
Which is the judgement call I trust most http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can always count on you to be contrary, Jon. :)
You know me, I aim to please http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[WussGawd]

Having attended several school board meetings and knowing a couple of the members, I can't imagine a kid gets expelled who really doesn't deserve it.

You would be wrong then. In these days of suspend at the drop of a hat, it doesn't take much to get suspended.

[sterlingice]

Unfortunately, so many people want it both ways. Frankly, I'd like to see things like this decided on a case by case basis. But that will never happen. To try and turn this on its ear for a second...

Imagine a post on this board "Student kills other students with scissors". Isn't the rest of that thread predictable? "Why were those scissors at school?" "I blame the school for not enforcing the zero tolerance policy." "How could a mom let her kid go to school with scissors when she knew he was clearly unstable?"

So the school, which is what this story is really about anyways, is damned no matter what. The kid in this story is just a bystander, a catalyst to the news story. The reporter could give a damn. If he could write a story "clock expelled for having scissors at school", he'd be talking to it.

In the lawsuit happy US of A, we always like to have someone else to blame. A lot of opportunists look at schools with giant dollar signs. Juries and judges are easily swayed when someone hysterically yells "won't someone please think of the children". People don't rationally think about their own children: "it's ok for Billy but not for my kid" so they never think the consequences of their actions could affect thousands. So schools really have to play this extreme game of CYA to avoid having to put out a bond issue just to fund next semester because some jury of weepy soap opera moms were swayed by getting a crying kid up on the stands.

To use a recent example, look at the Todd Bertuzzi thread. I don't want to drag this in here too much, but unless you think he was driving Moore down (a big caveat in this argument), Bert only sucker punched Moore and the most you should be able to say is that as an unintended consequence of the punch, he indirectly broke Moore's neck. Yet everyone wants him to be 100% responsible for all of the actions and all of the consequences because of the severity and publicity of the incident.

And now I'm just venting and off topic so back to school... I was one of those effing elitist kids who walked past vice principals in the hall with my hat in one hand and a stick of gum in the other. Both of those, of course, were horribly banned substances if you used them in the way in which they were intended. The teachers in my classes such as English Honors or Latin or Comp Sci AP didn't care two whits whether I had them because they knew I wasn't the kid those rules were intended for. I wasn't wearing my ratty old Astros hat because it was a gang symbol, it was because my hair never went where I wanted it to except when it was under a hat and I'm didn't chew gum to play with it or pop loud bubbles or whatever, I chewed it so my breath didn't stink after lunch. But schools have to be the parent to both the younger rebellious kid and the older, more mature kid where they tell both that they can't do something even if they know one can handle it and the other can't ("None of you can wear hats because it's a gang symbol, yes even you, dork boy that people in prison would pass around as currency").

But does anyone know what the right answer is? I really don't. As long as you have a side always looking for someone to blame, someone to get vengeance from, and someone to scapegoat (and sue), this stuff will keep happening and zero tolerance will be more and more prevalent.

SI

[SirFozzie]

It's encouraging people NOT to think, to not use common sense. After all, you won't NEED common sense when you're working 40 hours at some dead end job, right? You just need the r's. "Reading, wRiting, aRithmatic, and Rules."

Who cares if the rules are asinine..

:rolleyes:

[Tekneek]

Just so you can change that statement in the future to "nearly everyone" ...
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

More often than not, I find that have more confidence in "zero-tolerance" policies than I do in "judgement calls".

What is better about zero-tolerance policies? Is it better that people pretend to be robots than use their brains?

[Subby]

Fritz once killed a fellow third-grader with a Little Debbie Snack Cake...

[dawgfan]

Zero tolerance is dumb policy. Human beings have the ability to reason and make judgment calls. We should use it all of the time instead of dumbing ourselves down into zero-tolerance "I can't weigh the facts" type of rules/laws.

Bingo. Instead of dealing with the complexities of looking at context, we seem hell-bent on a system of binary judgement - it's either good or bad, right or wrong, etc. No room for middle ground, grey area, etc. It's analog vs. digital applied to human reasoning, and in this case I came down firmly in the analog camp.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What is better about zero-tolerance policies? Is it better that people pretend to be robots than use their brains?
Frankly, I've become convinced that what passes for most people's brains are an insult to the name.

[Tekneek]

Frankly, I've become convinced that what passes for most people's brains are an insult to the name.

Now you've got me. Suppose I should take that one personally? Those in charge of schools, that don't have brains, should lose their jobs, rather than implement zero-tolerance policies.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Suppose I should take that one personally?
LOL, no that really wasn't what I had I in mind.

{I suspect Tekneek isn't familiar with my belief in "the rule of the 80" -- basically says 80% of the people you meet in a lifetime are simply too f'n stupid to be worth the time or trouble to deal with them}

[ice4277]

Or possibly banning compasses. Seeing as protractors are usually round, unsharp, plastic devices used to measure angles.
You can see how much I paid attention in match class :redface:

[ice4277]

"the rule of the 80" -- basically says 80% of the people you meet in a lifetime are simply too f'n stupid to be worth the time or trouble to deal with them}
You must have worked in retail at some point in your life :D

[Tekneek]

You can see how much I paid attention in match class :redface:

What was match class? The name sounds interesting, and opens up a lot of possibilities. I'm not sure having a protractor OR a compass would be important in any of them... :cool: