Superping-Jesus

[nfg22]

This is an attemp to get what we had back, which for the most part was Questions that were pretty good and answers. Without too much finger pointing or crude jokes. So arguments against Christianity can be presented and then we do our best to explain them. Please no Crude jokes or anything of the sort.

[vex]

Give it up.

[Hurst2112]

Don't give it up.

[nfg22]

No sir I just read a whole thread on how people wanted it back so, denied.

[Subby]

Do Jewish children killed by Muslim suicide bombers go to Heaven?

Edit: Yes, this is a serious question.

[NoMyths]

So this barrel of oil walks into a bar and sits next to a beautiful woman. He leans over and whispers in her ear. Suddenly the woman smacks him and the barrel staggers out of the bar. The bartender says, "How come you hit him?" The woman says, "He was crude."

I got nothing.

[nfg22]

if you are serious about the Jewish question. They go to heaven if they have faith Jesus died for their sins.

[nfg22]

I just found out a couple weeks ago that the Shriners are acually muslim is there roots. and the sword and moon on their caps is from when Muhhamed went and slaughered a whole town of Christians that kicked him out. The moon is from the tribal god that Muhhamed came from. He was the god of the moon and the chosen god of Muhhamed's tribe.

[Buddy Grant]

Do dogs go to heaven?

[vex]

if you are serious about the Jewish question. They go to heaven if they have faith Jesus died for their sins.


Actually, they would go to Heaven because they are only children. Assuming they didn't understand yet.

[wig]

Do dogs go to heaven?

All Dogs Go To Heaven

[Subby]

if you are serious about the Jewish question. They go to heaven if they have faith Jesus died for their sins. They are Jewish, so they don't believe in Jesus or don't have any real concept of religion. For instance, 7-year-old Elisabeth was just enjoying an ice cream with her mother at an outdoor cafe when a suicide bomber walked up and detonated himself...instantly killing himself, Elisabeth, her mother, and everyone else in a 10-foot radius.

So...no Heaven for seven year-old Elisabeth?

[Sharpieman]

Why does the Christian religion accept the notion of Holy Trinity? It was created by a bunch of Priests during some meeting. It was never in the Bible. They just created it to explain what was in the Bible, a way of interpreting it.

[nfg22]

Also if the considered theory of age of understanding is true, which means that before u can make descisions for yourself, at a young age, you go to heaven because you did not know better.

[vex]

All Dogs Go To Heaven

Well, duh, they made TWO movies about it.

[vex]

Also if the considered theory of age of understanding is true, which means that before u can make descisions for yourself, at a young age, you go to heaven because you did not know better.

considered theory???

[nfg22]

Why does the Christian religion accept the notion of Holy Trinity? It was created by a bunch of Priests during some meeting. It was never in the Bible. They just created it to explain what was in the Bible, a way of interpreting it.

To my best understanding. The father is talked about in the NT, The Son is talked about in the NT and the Holy Spirit is talked about. They are are reffered to in ways that make them seem seperate but connected so it is assumed while they are all properties of the same, they are all seperate in what they do.

[Subby]

Also if the considered theory of age of understanding is true, which means that before u can make descisions for yourself, at a young age, you go to heaven because you did not know better. At what age does the Age of Understanding exception expire?

[nfg22]

considered theory???

Well Kinda a theory. Age of accountibility is never mentioned outrightly in the Bible so most Christians believe that there is a certain point where you are not denied into Heaven

[wig]

It sounds like we're just making stuff up now.

"age of understanding"?

[vex]

At what age does the Age of Understanding exception expire?

Once the child understands.:rolleyes:

[vex]

Well Kinda a theory. Age of accountibility is never mentioned outrightly in the Bible so most Christians believe that there is a certain point where you are not denied into Heaven

Like a child? Sound familiar?

[Sharpieman]

To my best understanding. The father is talked about in the NT, The Son is talked about in the NT and the Holy Spirit is talked about. They are are reffered to in ways that make them seem seperate but connected so it is assumed while they are all properties of the same, they are all seperate in what they do.
Yes, but my point is that it was "Holy Trinity" was never in the Bible. Its the same thing with the Predestination idea of Calvinists. Calvin just made it up and over years and years of tradition people just accept it as if it were created by God.

[nfg22]

At what age does the Age of Understanding exception expire?
I guess whenever you can make the descision for yourself.

[Maple Leafs]

Do dogs go to heaven?
http://www.theonion.com/opinion/

[vex]

Yes, but my point is that it was "Holy Trinity" was never in the Bible. Its the same thing with the Predestination idea of Calvinists. Calvin just made it up and over years and years of tradition people just accept it as if it were created by God.

Calvinism is just crazy.

[sachmo71]

In my heaven, there are rows and rows of books about stuff I like, and 24 hour all you can eat resturants, and lots of video games.

I have a question though. If my wife is still alive, and I am in heaven, can I have sex with someone else, or is it still a sin?

[Subby]

Once the child understands.:rolleyes: And who makes the final decision on whether or not they understand?

So some 8 year-olds could understand but some 15 year-olds might not?

What about a child with a learning disability...at what point does the exception expire for them? What if they never understand?

[nfg22]

It sounds like we're just making stuff up now.

"age of understanding"?

Humans cannot understand everything God has made or the rules of Heaven because we dont have the capacity to understand the full outright intellegence of our Creator. So no I dont know if I am right on this point but that is my best understanding.

[Huckleberry]

What about an adult who lives in a remote area of the planet and who has never been introduced to Christianity? He dies after living a life that consisted of love, charity, and singular devotion to his lifelong mate.

No Heaven for him?

[Sharpieman]

Calvinism is just crazy.
Well I guess Catholics are too since the Pope and Priests like to make up things too. For example, Purgatory. Its not in the Bible, Priests just made it up so that more people would convert.

[nfg22]

And who makes the final decision on whether or not they understand?

So some 8 year-olds could understand but some 15 year-olds might not?

What about a child with a learning disability...at what point does the exception expire for them? What if they never understand?

God makes the descicion. he know all hearts and he can discern better than anyone.

[John Galt]

At what age does the Age of Understanding exception expire?

I admit I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to religion, but I've never heard of this "age of understanding" stuff. My impression has always been that original sin means even an infant doesn't go to heaven. And a Jewish girl of any age would never get in. Of course, most of my early education was from Catholics, but I would be curious where "age of understanding" comes from (in the Bible).

[Subby]

So far you are both doing a horrible job of explaining your interpretation of Christianity to me.

EDIT: Or answering my questions, anyway...

[wig]

To me it sounds like someone came up with the same question Subby did, and couldn't find an answer.

So they made up the idea of "age of understanding" to feel better.

[nfg22]

What about an adult who lives in a remote area of the planet and who has never been introduced to Christianity? He dies after living a life that consisted of love, charity, and singular devotion to his lifelong mate.

No Heaven for him?

I dont know. I have debated this with Christian friends many times. It says in the Bible that all will be Judged according to what they have done. But it also says the people that follow God's moral laws without knowing will be declared rightous.(Sp?)

[Subby]

Why did God allow the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide and other atrocities to occur?

[nfg22]

I admit I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to religion, but I've never heard of this "age of understanding" stuff. My impression has always been that original sin means even an infant doesn't go to heaven. And a Jewish girl of any age would never get in. Of course, most of my early education was from Catholics, but I would be curious where "age of understanding" comes from (in the Bible).


We all have sins through our fathers but since Jesus the rules changed in that he was our sacrifice, as where before sacrifices had to be made to make up for our sins he already did that so faith in him washes our sins away.

[nfg22]

Why did God allow the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide and other atrocities to occur?

Well it depends what portion your asking to. Why did he allow suffering? The suffering is a consequence of our freedom of choice. People chose to persecute others and that is why it happend. Granted God didnt like it but he allowed it because he gave us freedom of choice.

[cody8200]

Age of understanding makes perfect sense. If a child doesn';t understand the concept of death, doesn't understand sin, then he can;t possibly be held accountable for his sin by a just God(christian God). Many times in the Bible it is mentioned that to enter heaven you need to be 'like a child' meaning the innocence or the heart of a child. This at least is my belief and the belief of most protestants. I believe that Catholics think that if a child is not baptized then they cannot go to heaven. However I am not sure about that.

As far as predestination, as far as I know no mainstream Christian group STILL believes in that concept. Calvin was ridiculous. I remember that he said that only those in the elect will go to heaven. No matter how much good or bad you do it doesn;t matter because your soul is predestined. It's a very upsetting concept and left many people feeling like they were worthless. People began committing crimes and not going to church under Calvinism...after all it didn;t matter what they did anyway. Crazy stuff.

[vex]

Why did God allow the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide and other atrocities to occur?
I'll ask when I get there.

[nfg22]

I must write a paper now will be back later tonight and will answer questions if there arent too many. Ill try to answer as many as I can. Thanks for asking good questions sorry I dont have all the answers.

[wig]

So there is no chance for a person born in China to get to heaven, unless it somehow finds someone to teach it about Jesus?

[nfg22]

Age of understanding makes perfect sense. If a child doesn';t understand the concept of death, doesn't understand sin, then he can;t possibly be held accountable for his sin by a just God(christian God). Many times in the Bible it is mentioned that to enter heaven you need to be 'like a child' meaning the innocence or the heart of a child. This at least is my belief and the belief of most protestants. I believe that Catholics think that if a child is not baptized then they cannot go to heaven. However I am not sure about that.

As far as predestination, as far as I know no mainstream Christian group STILL believes in that concept. Calvin was ridiculous. I remember that he said that only those in the elect will go to heaven. No matter how much good or bad you do it doesn;t matter because your soul is predestined. It's a very upsetting concept and left many people feeling like they were worthless. People began committing crimes and not going to church under Calvinism...after all it didn;t matter what they did anyway. Crazy stuff.

I dont know where in the Bible but I think it was Solomon, maybe someone else in the Old Testament had their young child suffer and on the brink of dying. And He mourned while the child was alive and suffering but when the child died he was back to normal and when questioned why he wasnt still sad he said " The child is with the Lord now and is no longer of my worrys" or sumthing like that. Will look it up later. Gotta go.

[Sharpieman]

Age of understanding makes perfect sense. If a child doesn';t understand the concept of death, doesn't understand sin, then he can;t possibly be held accountable for his sin by a just God(christian God). Many times in the Bible it is mentioned that to enter heaven you need to be 'like a child' meaning the innocence or the heart of a child. This at least is my belief and the belief of most protestants. I believe that Catholics think that if a child is not baptized then they cannot go to heaven. However I am not sure about that.

As far as predestination, as far as I know no mainstream Christian group STILL believes in that concept. Calvin was ridiculous. I remember that he said that only those in the elect will go to heaven. No matter how much good or bad you do it doesn;t matter because your soul is predestined. It's a very upsetting concept and left many people feeling like they were worthless. People began committing crimes and not going to church under Calvinism...after all it didn;t matter what they did anyway. Crazy stuff.
Actually Predestination is still preached in many Presbyterian Churches. And if its "crazy stuff" The Catholic religion must be at least equally crazy. The idea of Purgatory is not in the Bible...look it up. It was created by Catholic Priests and is now accepted as fact even though every historian knows that it was created to increase the number of converts.

[AgPete]

I'll ask when I get there.

That's basically what I've decided too. :p When I die, if there's a white light, I'll find the big man myself and bring up a few things I'm pisssed about. Of course, I just hope I don't get thrown down the dumper into the fires of hell before I get a chance to voice my complaints about the affairs of Earth.

[nfg22]

So there is no chance for a person born in China to get to heaven, unless it somehow finds someone to teach it about Jesus?
LOL last post here I gotta go. I just posted earlier that that is debated because all will be Judged and all have sinned but also those that are good and follow Gods law without being told it are declared rightous is the kingdom of heaven.

[Sharpieman]

So there is no chance for a person born in China to get to heaven, unless it somehow finds someone to teach it about Jesus?
Jesus isn't the only way to salvation. There are many other religions out there that can help one reach salvation. God takes many forms, Jesus, Ganesh etc...

[wig]

LOL last post here I gotta go. I just posted earlier that that is debated because all will be Judged and all have sinned but also those that are good and follow Gods law without being told it are declared rightous is the kingdom of heaven.

ok, I was under the impression that you had to believe in Jesus.

[WSUCougar]

Props to nfg22 for taking on all these questions. A noble effort.

As an aside, I'm curious about you skeptics. Do you believe in any form of afterlife?

[vex]

Jesus isn't the only way to salvation.

"No one comes to the father, but by me" Or is that not there?

[cody8200]

BTW a good way to show that baptism was not necessary was when Jesus was crucified. One of thieves next to Jesus asked Jesus to remember him saying "Jesus remember me when you come into your Kingdom" (asking for his forgiveness) and for this Jesus said, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise" -Luke 23.42
This man was a thief and was never baptized however Jesus told him that he would be in heaven with him that very day. To me, this proves that baptism is unnecessary for salvation.

[Daimyo]

So there is no chance for a person born in China to get to heaven, unless it somehow finds someone to teach it about Jesus?
They get an exception because god loves pork fried rice. If you look in the bible you'll find the "pork fried rice exception" listed right after the "age of exception" (check the index)

[nfg22]

ok, I was under the impression that you had to believe in Jesus.
Well I have a few more minutes now because my paper isnt due till tommrow. in my opinion which may not be right but I believe this. If you know about Jesus yet dont believe then you will go to hell. But if you dont know yet live a good life and keep to high morals God will have forgiveness for those sins.

[wig]

As an aside, I'm curious about you skeptics. Do you believe in any form of afterlife?

Sure, maybe.

I just have a lot of doubts about all these rules and regulations about how souls are sorted in the afterlife.

[Sharpieman]

"No one comes to the father, but by me" Or is that not there?
Thats one Bible. Speaking to a certain group. There are many interpretations of that quote and many believe different things than it says in the Bible. To think that the only way to heaven is through Jesus is chauvanistic.

[nfg22]

"No one comes to the father, but by me" Or is that not there?

That is there and also in early part of romans paul says " Faith in Christ is the one and only requierment for everlasting life" around those words. somthing like that.

[nfg22]

Thats one Bible. Speaking to a certain group. There are many interpretations of that quote and many believe different things than it says in the Bible. To think that the only way to heaven is through Jesus is chauvanistic.


Than call me Chavenistic.

[Sharpieman]

Sure, maybe.

I just have a lot of doubts about all these rules and regulations about how souls are sorted in the afterlife.
All the rules and regulations don't matter in the end. Only faith does.

[NoMyths]

Than call me Chavenistic.Is that like Calvinistic, only you're a follower of Chaven?

[AgPete]

For Bible fans, what do you think about the New Interpreters Study Bible? I bought it after reading some reviews I liked on Amazon but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. It's like reading the Bible with historical cliff notes on every page. I might be able to actually get past more than one book of the Bible with something like this to keep my interest.

[nfg22]

For Bible fans, what do you think about the New Interpreters Study Bible? I bought it after reading some reviews I liked on Amazon but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. It's like reading the Bible with historical cliff notes on every page. I might be able to actually get past more than one book of the Bible with something like this to keep my interest.

HAvent read it yet, I have the NLT and NIV those are my two favorites. NIV being the more accurate one but the NLT being good for understanding somethings I dont always.

[nfg22]

Is that like Calvinistic, only you're a follower of Chaven?

No one follows calvin they just hold the same beliefs as him silly:p.

[cody8200]

Yeh I too have a problem with purgatory. It seems like it was just made by Catholics to make it seem like the harshness of adhering to the laws of God aren't so harsh. When in fact God is pretty plain in the Bible. Believe in me and follow my rules or go to hell for eternity. There is no in between. Either you make it or you don't. It's much scarier when you think about it like that.

[Sharpieman]

Than call me Chavenistic.
See thats the problem with Christians. They think too highly of themselves. They only accept one belief. They don't accept any other beliefs. Yet God takes many forms. God doesn't only accept believers in Christ. There are many paths to salvation.

[NoMyths]

No one follows calvin they just hold the same beliefs as him silly:p.Thank goodness you've got a sense of humor. More of that is needed around these parts sometimes. :)

[nfg22]

Yeh I too have a problem with purgatory. It seems like it was just made by Catholics to make it seem like the harshness of adhering to the laws of God aren't so harsh. When in fact God is pretty plain in the Bible. Believe in me and follow my rules or go to hell for eternity. There is no in between. Either you make it or you don't. It's much scarier when you think about it like that.

Not to knock Catholics but there have been many times where they have done things for money. Like the wars when they incinuated that you could by salvation with donations wo the church to fund their wars.

[wig]

I don't know, it seems to me that we're using the Bible as ultimate authority when it suits our purposes, and making up other rules when it doesn't.

That's my main problem.

[nfg22]

Thank goodness you've got a sense of humor. More of that is needed around these parts sometimes. :)

These are serious subjects but I can read sarcasm and I am a very sarcastic person. God must have a sense of humor too right?

[Sharpieman]

Yeh I too have a problem with purgatory. It seems like it was just made by Catholics to make it seem like the harshness of adhering to the laws of God aren't so harsh. When in fact God is pretty plain in the Bible. Believe in me and follow my rules or go to hell for eternity. There is no in between. Either you make it or you don't. It's much scarier when you think about it like that.
Yet God is a merciful one, he sent his only son to save ALL people.

[nfg22]

I don't know, it seems to me that we're using the Bible as ultimate authority when it suits our purposes, and making up other rules when it doesn't.

That's my main problem.

It is ultimate authority all the time and when I cant find what im looking for in it I look to what would be the best possible explanation.

[Sharpieman]

Not to knock Catholics but there have been many times where they have done things for money. Like the wars when they incinuated that you could by salvation with donations wo the church to fund their wars.
Catholics aren't the only ones who have done things for money. Christians as a whole have persecuted many and done horrible things in the name of God.

[nfg22]

We must be a higher society, most threads would have broken down before the 5th post of religion.

[nfg22]

Catholics aren't the only ones who have done things for money. Christians as a whole have persecuted many and done horrible things in the name of God.

All people are corrupt.

[Daimyo]

Why does god care if humans believe in him or not? If I was all-powerful I wouldn't waste time caring if people believed in me or not (especially if they were generally good people otherwise). Does god have self-esteem issues?

[wig]

It's like all the bad things the Bible says aren't important, but the good things are the word of God.

[NoMyths]

All people are corrupt.Especially Karl Rove.

[cody8200]

Yes he sent his only son sto save all people...all they must do is Believe in Him.

[nfg22]

Why does god care if humans believe in him or not? If I was all-powerful I wouldn't waste time caring if people believed in me or not. Does god have self-esteem issues?

No God created us to have freedom of choice. We ruined the world He created with sin and He lives in a pain free, joy filled world. He has love and compassion that we may escape our bonds with sin and worship Him so we can be with Him.

[Sharpieman]

Why does god care if humans believe in him or not? If I was all-powerful I wouldn't waste time caring if people believed in me or not (especially if they were generally good people otherwise). Does god have self-esteem issues?
We are God's sons and daugthers, why wouldn't you care for your son or daugther?

[Subby]

I believe in and love God.

The best examples of God on this Earth are seen in nature, my wife and my four sons.

God is compassionate and forgiving. He is NOT jealous. Jealousy is a human flaw.

God realized that when he created humans he was creating something that was incapable of perfection and to that end we will all likely join him in the afterlife.

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.

See you in Heaven. :)

[nfg22]

It's like all the bad things the Bible says aren't important, but the good things are the word of God.

Do you know what bad things? Or are u just saying from what youve heard? I sometimes doubt what the Bible says then I remeber if God is all knowing he would make it so the Bible represented Him rightly.

[Ksyrup]

Well, duh, they made TWO movies about it.
Yes, but Charlie Sheen and Ernest Borgnine did the voiceovers for ADGTH2. Sounds like a mixed message to me...

[nfg22]

I believe in and love God.

The best examples of God on this Earth are seen in nature, my wife and my four sons.

God is compassionate and forgiving. He is NOT jealous. Jealousy is a human flaw.

God realized that when he created humans he was creating something that was incapable of perfection and to that end we will all likely join him in the afterlife.

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.

See you in Heaven. :)


I believe the Jealous God is a misconception. He is not the kind of jealous we get He just meant He will not be shared with other material things. Either worship him or dont. you cant have the cake and eat it too.

[wig]

Do you know what bad things? Or are u just saying from what youve heard? I sometimes doubt what the Bible says then I remeber if God is all knowing he would make it so the Bible represented Him rightly.

Rules about selling daughters into slavery, buying slaves, working on the sabbath, eating shellfish, stoning people to death...

Those are the kinds of things I'm asking about. We ignore these parts of the bible, but cling to the other parts.

[dawgfan]

Props to nfg22 for taking on all these questions. A noble effort.

As an aside, I'm curious about you skeptics. Do you believe in any form of afterlife?

I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but faced with the alternative most people would as well. It's not a very comforting thought to try and imagine death and what that entails - is it the end of this consciousness? Or is there some way in which the thoughts and essences that comprise this consciousness 'live on' in some form?

The rationalist in me says that ideas like Heaven, an afterlife, reincarnation, etc. are concepts that man has created as a comfort to deal with this most difficult of ponderings.

The dreamer in me hopes that there is some way of living on. Of course, I'm still relatively young and vital - ask me again in 60 years if I've had enough...

[Easy Mac]

If God is supremely perfect, how can he create something with imperfections (humanity)? The very definition of perfection is that everything something does is perfect, it cannot create things that have imperfections.

If the answer is free will (as I have often heard) then how could he create free will, which is inherently imperfect?

And why must God exist? If he's God, couldn't he make himself not exist, or is he not capable of doing so, since existence is part of his essence (or perfection)? If he couldn't then he isn't supremely powerful, correct (again part of his essence)? If he doesn't exist, then is he still God? (sorry for not capitalizing he, I just don't feel like making the necessary changes)

[Subby]

I believe the Jealous God is a misconception. He is not the kind of jealous we get He just meant He will not be shared with other material things. Either worship him or dont. you cant have the cake and eat it too.That is a good point. I like to interpret this to mean we need to be less self-invloved and materialistic. Materialism is a huge trap and you don't really realize that you are going down that path until you are already well there.

My rule of thumb is that measured moderation is probably the best course when it comes to most things...

[Easy Mac]

I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but faced with the alternative most people would as well. It's not a very comforting thought to try and imagine death and what that entails - is it the end of this consciousness? Or is there some way in which the thoughts and essences that comprise this consciousness 'live on' in some form?

The rationalist in me says that ideas like Heaven, an afterlife, reincarnation, etc. are concepts that man has created as a comfort to deal with this most difficult of ponderings.

The dreamer in me hopes that there is some way of living on. Of course, I'm still relatively young and vital - ask me again in 60 years if I've had enough...
I agree. I'd like to believe there is something beyond this, simply because the alternative is so unimaginable that its scary. However, this isn't enough to make be believe, and it is not the right reason for me to believe. I find too many people believe in God out of fear, and that to me is the wrong reason to believe.

[nfg22]

Rules about selling daughters into slavery, buying slaves, working on the sabbath, eating shellfish, stoning people to death...

Those are the kinds of things I'm asking about. We ignore these parts of the bible, but cling to the other parts.
ok last post before class. Good Question wigs. The thing is all those things u listed were in dueteronomy(sp?) That book was written to state the rules of their culture at the time and also to restate the Ten commandments.While we take some to heart we do not take others because they are not of our culture. While this can be veiwed as dodging what we dont like. Which all people do to an extent, like justifying their actions(Everyone even Christians have dont this.) But really God has made it clear to obey moral laws as so not to make a fool of yourself and make your religion and God look stupid if you would like I will write a commentary about every single one of those rules because that has been one of my biggest obsticales.

[nfg22]

That is a good point. I like to interpret this to mean we need to be less self-invloved and materialistic. Materialism is a huge trap and you don't really realize that you are going down that path until you are already well there.

My rule of thumb is that measured moderation is probably the best course when it comes to most things...

yessir, I still have trouble in being into too much materialism, as in I want a stereo so ill skip mu tithe for this week. But really that money should not control me, But God should. Christians have problems too folks:(. You heard it here first.:p

[Daimyo]

We are God's sons and daugthers, why wouldn't you care for your son or daugther?

So if your son or daughter doesn't share your beliefs you think its acceptable to doom them to a life of eternal suffering?

[NoMyths]

And how can anyone be content in Heaven, knowing that there are souls that are in unendurable suffering for all eternity?

[wig]

ok last post before class. Good Question wigs. The thing is all those things u listed were in dueteronomy(sp?) That book was written to state the rules of their culture at the time and also to restate the Ten commandments.While we take some to heart we do not take others because they are not of our culture. While this can be veiwed as dodging what we dont like. Which all people do to an extent, like justifying their actions(Everyone even Christians have dont this.) But really God has made it clear to obey moral laws as so not to make a fool of yourself and make your religion and God look stupid if you would like I will write a commentary about every single one of those rules because that has been one of my biggest obsticales.

I guess that's kind of my point. We just change old rules, drop rules we don't like, and make up new ones to fit our culture as we see fit. If the Bible was, at one time, truly the word of God, what we have now isn't anymore.

My whole problem with religion is that it's always scrambling to cover every situation. It is always trying to decide who gets into heaven and who doesn't. If you're always changing the rules, doesn't it make the whole game invalid?

I'm glad you're taking the time to answer my questions. The more I learn about how the rules work, the less I believe that anyone knows how the afterlife actually works.

If I were to nail down my beliefs right now, I would say that every single person gets into "heaven". Even the worst people in society.

[Easy Mac]

And how can anyone be content in Heaven, knowing that there are souls that are in unendurable suffering for all eternity?
There are rich people who are content in knowing that there are poor starving throughout the world, so I would say yes.

[MikeVic]

What is the difference between Catholics, Roman Catholics, Christians, and Protestants? I always thought the first three were the same thing, and Protestants were the same, except they didn't believe Mary was a virgin. Is any of this right?

[Daimyo]

ok last post before class. Good Question wigs. The thing is all those things u listed were in dueteronomy(sp?) That book was written to state the rules of their culture at the time and also to restate the Ten commandments.While we take some to heart we do not take others because they are not of our culture. While this can be veiwed as dodging what we dont like. Which all people do to an extent, like justifying their actions(Everyone even Christians have dont this.) But really God has made it clear to obey moral laws as so not to make a fool of yourself and make your religion and God look stupid if you would like I will write a commentary about every single one of those rules because that has been one of my biggest obsticales.

But isn't this the same place where the rules against homosexuality are outlined? If you can choose ot ignore things because they don't fit your culture, and since you pretty much decide what you want to fit your culture, can't you pretty much follow what you want?

[Easy Mac]

Catholics=Roman Catholics (There are some Orthodox Catholics who I think go with the old Byzantine rules, but those are mainly on the other side of the world)

Protestants are just about any non-Catholic Christians, and are divided into subsets (baptists, lutherans, presbyterians...).

Christians are all of the above.

Catholics are the ones that believe in the virigin birth and that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. It is her purity that makes the birth of Jesus even more important. The far-right Christians (Bob Jones and the like) call Catholicism a cult because of this and say that they worship Mary and not God... Catholics praise Mary for what she did for the world, but still praise God (and Jesus/Holy Spirit, I'm pretty sure Catholics are the only ones who see all 3 as the exact same)

[Sharpieman]

I agree. I'd like to believe there is something beyond this, simply because the alternative is so unimaginable that its scary. However, this isn't enough to make be believe, and it is not the right reason for me to believe. I find too many people believe in God out of fear, and that to me is the wrong reason to believe.
I totally agree that people believe in God out of fear, its totally the wrong reason. The message of love has been lost somewhat with people and preachers trying to convert by striking fear into people. I personally don't like churches, their like bad goverments. But God exsists. I know for a fact. I wouldn't have received a heart transplant without God on my side. I think some people need to be close to death to understand and find God.

[KevinNU7]

BTW a good way to show that baptism was not necessary was when Jesus was crucified. One of thieves next to Jesus asked Jesus to remember him saying "Jesus remember me when you come into your Kingdom" (asking for his forgiveness) and for this Jesus said, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise" -Luke 23.42
This man was a thief and was never baptized however Jesus told him that he would be in heaven with him that very day. To me, this proves that baptism is unnecessary for salvation. If you ask for forgiveness then you are forgiven of all sins, including original sin.

[revrew]

I'm glad you're taking the time to answer my questions. The more I learn about how the rules work, the less I believe that anyone knows how the afterlife actually works.


I can try to pick it up a bit here, but I, too have time constraints.

The fundamental flaw that's creating a stumbling block, here, is the perception of the Bible as a "religious rule book." Anyone and everyone, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise, who has perceived the Scriptures this way intevitably gets confused.

In nearly every OTHER religion, the object of divine revelation (i.e. their "holy" writings) is a plan or guidebook on appeasing the divine power. "How to live for Allah" or "How to appease Asherah" or "How to make it into Nirvana" etc.

The Bible is unique in this respect. It is NOT a "how to make God happy and get into heaven and live by the rules" book. It is the LONG story of how GOD, and not humanity, can appease and please the one, holy, perfect, just Creator. The whole Old Testament points out how no matter how few or how many rules God gave for loving, pure community, people screwed it up. In fact, all humanity has ever done is kill, rape, maim, and torture one another and the rest of creation. So, just as any good and just god would, God said, "To hell with it."

And yet, something restrained him. That's the ol' John 3:16 thing. God loved us to much to send all of selfish, stinking humanity to hell. So he said, "Look, what if I take the beating you deserve? What if I go to hell for you? Would you trust me then? Would you let me live your life for you, before you screw up everything?" That's where Jesus came in. Now all He asks is that we trust Him and let Him live through us. The end result? He's making a place called Heaven. Those that live with him now get to live with him forever.

That's the whole point. It's not about rules and how to "be good." It's not even about "how to make God happy enough to get into heaven." The whole point is: we can't; but God alive inside of us can; so let him. Make sense?

[druez]

I just had this debate on the .400 forums but here are some of my highlights.

Jesus was a canabis user so why can't I be?

The Greek title "Christ" is the translation of the Hebrew word Messiah, which in English becomes "The Anointed" D. The Messiah was recognized as such by his being anointed with the holy anointing oil, the use of which was restricted to the instillation of Hebrew priests and kings (See CC#5). If Jesus was not initiated in this fashion then he was not the Christ, and had no official claim to the title.

The ancient recipe for this anointing oil, recorded in the Old Testament book of Exodus (30: 22-23) included over nine pounds of flowering cannabis tops, Hebrew "kaneh-bosm" B, extracted into a hind (about 6.5 litres) of olive oil, along with a variety of other herbs and spices.

Unlike the shamanistic priests and kings of earlier generations, Jesus did not follow the strict Old Testament taboos that limited the holy cannabis oils use to Yahweh's chosen few (Exodus 30:33), but broke tradition and began to liberally use it in both healing and initiation rites.

Through this open distribution the singular Christ, "the Anointed", was extended to become the plural term "Christians", that is, those who had been smeared or anointed. "By rubbing on this divine unction. . . obtained from certain special herbs or plants, they believed they were donning the panoply of God."7


As the New Testament's John explains:

. . . you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. . . . the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in him." (1 John 2: 27). L

". . . the Christian, the 'smeared or anointed one', received 'knowledge of all things' by his 'anointing from the Holy One' (1 John 2: 20). Thereafter he had need of no other teacher and remained forevermore endowed with all knowledge (v. 27)

[Buddy Grant]

Jesus isn't the only way to salvation. There are many other religions out there that can help one reach salvation. God takes many forms, Jesus, Ganesh etc...
Well I like that attitude, I suspect many Christians would disagree though.

[druez]

DOLA

This week is my point out silly things in christianity week I think. There are a quite a few more like these.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7

3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations

4. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.

Lev = Leviticus

Pretty fun stuff. Because we all know the bible isn't wrong!

[heybrad]

I believe in and love God.

The best examples of God on this Earth are seen in nature, my wife and my four sons.

God is compassionate and forgiving. He is NOT jealous. Jealousy is a human flaw.

God realized that when he created humans he was creating something that was incapable of perfection and to that end we will all likely join him in the afterlife.

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.

See you in Heaven. :)

This is far and away the best post I've ever seen in a religious thread.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but faced with the alternative most people would as well. It's not a very comforting thought to try and imagine death and what that entails - is it the end of this consciousness? Or is there some way in which the thoughts and essences that comprise this consciousness 'live on' in some form?

The rationalist in me says that ideas like Heaven, an afterlife, reincarnation, etc. are concepts that man has created as a comfort to deal with this most difficult of ponderings.

The dreamer in me hopes that there is some way of living on. Of course, I'm still relatively young and vital - ask me again in 60 years if I've had enough...

If you love one other person on this Earth, you will live on through their love for you. And they will live on through someone else's love for them. In essence you will never die.

Above everything else Jesus said, he simply said "Love one another." This was his most important message and the one he stressed many many times throughout his life here on Earth.

My own personal beliefs are partly formed from some things I have seen because of what I do for a living. I have seen probably two dozen people in their last seconds of life of whom I have no attachment or preconception of and all I can tell you is that there is something there. I don't know what it is and it would be impossible to explain but it just happens. I believe they are moving on to something else and somehow, someway they know this, but I have no concrete proof or conception of what it is for you unless you saw it yourself.

You will find many doctors and other people who have seen things similar. It can change your life completely.

[Buddy Grant]

Heaven questions for any folks who believe in heaven: What is heaven like, is it like Earth in any way? Are winged angels singing religious hymns on clouds? Do people that get accepted into heaven look like they did on Earth or do they all look like Ken & Barbie?

[Cuckoo]

I can try to pick it up a bit here, but I, too have time constraints.

The fundamental flaw that's creating a stumbling block, here, is the perception of the Bible as a "religious rule book." Anyone and everyone, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise, who has perceived the Scriptures this way intevitably gets confused.

In nearly every OTHER religion, the object of divine revelation (i.e. their "holy" writings) is a plan or guidebook on appeasing the divine power. "How to live for Allah" or "How to appease Asherah" or "How to make it into Nirvana" etc.

The Bible is unique in this respect. It is NOT a "how to make God happy and get into heaven and live by the rules" book. It is the LONG story of how GOD, and not humanity, can appease and please the one, holy, perfect, just Creator. The whole Old Testament points out how no matter how few or how many rules God gave for loving, pure community, people screwed it up. In fact, all humanity has ever done is kill, rape, maim, and torture one another and the rest of creation. So, just as any good and just god would, God said, "To hell with it."

And yet, something restrained him. That's the ol' John 3:16 thing. God loved us to much to send all of selfish, stinking humanity to hell. So he said, "Look, what if I take the beating you deserve? What if I go to hell for you? Would you trust me then? Would you let me live your life for you, before you screw up everything?" That's where Jesus came in. Now all He asks is that we trust Him and let Him live through us. The end result? He's making a place called Heaven. Those that live with him now get to live with him forever.

That's the whole point. It's not about rules and how to "be good." It's not even about "how to make God happy enough to get into heaven." The whole point is: we can't; but God alive inside of us can; so let him. Make sense?

Thank goodness you showed up revrew. Every time one of these threads starts, I think about getting involved. For the most part, though, I just hope that you'll appear because you explain things so much better than I ever could. Thanks.

[revrew]

Heaven questions for any folks who believe in heaven: What is heaven like, is it like Earth in any way? Are winged angels singing religious hymns on clouds? Do people that get accepted into heaven look like they did on Earth or do they all look like Ken & Barbie?

1. Heaven like Earth? Largely, don't know. We only get glimpses from brief hints given by two people who saw it (Jesus, and John (in the book of Revelation)). Among a few other things, we can glean that it is a place of no more sorrow, no tears, and plently of joy, singing, worship. Furthermore, we can glean that we will know others there, that we will have some kind of "body", that God will be present and seeable. We can glean there is some kind of "river of life, crystal sea, emerald rainbows, etc." though some reasonably suggest these were only John's finite attempts at describing infinite things, a shadow of how cool it will really be. Furthermore, there is an uderstanding that there will be a new earth and new Jerusalem, a BIG city with mansions, where all will live in peace.

2. Winged angels? Again, we know little. We do know that we will be singing, and it will be an awesome concert.

3. Our bodies? We know even less. But here's what the Bible says about it: "New bodies that never grow old, tired, sick, or deformed. Incorruptible."

*These answers are those I gleaned from Scripture, not personal opinion. Of course, these answers only reflect a biblical perspective of heaven. For the "heavens" of other faiths, or other's personal opinions, you will have to see their writings. I only refer to the writings claimed to be breathed and inspired by the Christian God.

[QuikSand]

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.

I echo the sentiment that Subby's was a very positive message.

I also find it interesting, but not surprising, that when stripped of all the God and heaven references (above), it stil holds an awful lot of water.

[vex]

Why does god care if humans believe in him or not? If I was all-powerful I wouldn't waste time caring if people believed in me or not (especially if they were generally good people otherwise). Does god have self-esteem issues?

God created us to have fellowship with him.

[vex]

If God is supremely perfect, how can he create something with imperfections (humanity)? The very definition of perfection is that everything something does is perfect, it cannot create things that have imperfections.


Man was not originally created imperfect. It was when Adam and Eve disobeyed God that they were to be punished from then on.

[Huckleberry]

My impression has always been that original sin means even an infant doesn't go to heaven.

Can someone explain original sin? Is it an inheritance of your ancestors' sins? Because that's not very fair or just. Is it because you are the product of sex? Because sex for the purpose of procreation between a married couple seems to me to be okay in the eyes of God.

[Drake]

I just found out a couple weeks ago that the Shriners are acually muslim is there roots. and the sword and moon on their caps is from when Muhhamed went and slaughered a whole town of Christians that kicked him out. The moon is from the tribal god that Muhhamed came from. He was the god of the moon and the chosen god of Muhhamed's tribe.

No, no, no. This is patently false. I don't know what your source was for this , but I'd suggest that you at least make an effort to learn about the history and symbolism of Freemasonry before you start spreading lies about it.

[Huckleberry]

dola -

Okay, vexroid's last response seems to imply that my original sin is that Eve screwed up. Is that fair and just that I should be punished for a sin committed by some woman I never met?

[revrew]

dola -

Okay, vexroid's last response seems to imply that my original sin is that Eve screwed up. Is that fair and just that I should be punished for a sin committed by some woman I never met?

I know theologians and professors would get on my case for this...but does it matter? You don't have to worry about being punished for Adam's, Eve's, or your parents' sin. You've got enough of your own to merit punishment. So do I. Right?

[nfg22]

Seeing as the Old Testament issue of laws is still a big obstacle for all of you I would like to post on this. You have to understand that most of the OT books were written for the Isrealites and were not only meant to instruct them in God's ways but also Societal ways of that time. They had no laws before this, so some of the books are kind of like their constitution. They followed the books as laws of society and laws of religion. So we pick what God said to conform to him and what God said to conform to societal and distiguish them. Not as a means to differentiate between what we want and dont but to interpret it as religious and societal. Also homosexuality is not just a societal rule because it came from the babylonians yet was still condemned not because of baal but because it was wrong. Still was condemned in the New Testament although the Greeks and Romans used it profusely to unite the men in their armys and bring them closer in relationships so they would fight harder for each other.

[vex]

I know theologians and professors would get on my case for this...but does it matter? You don't have to worry about being punished for Adam's, Eve's, or your parents' sin. You've got enough of your own to merit punishment. So do I. Right?

But you are constantly being punished for Adam & Eve's sin.

[nfg22]

I know theologians and professors would get on my case for this...but does it matter? You don't have to worry about being punished for Adam's, Eve's, or your parents' sin. You've got enough of your own to merit punishment. So do I. Right?

The better answer to that is that Eve had the first chance then when she screwed up it violated the worlds rules and causes us to live in a fallen world. So now yes we are living in Eve's sin but you are born into the world of her sin and you also sin yourself. I dont want to sound holier than thou, because I am trying to come off as anything but that. I battle alot of sin in my life yet am striving to get rid of it, so dont think I that think I am better than you.

[nfg22]

I hope I am being helpfull to all of you. Please tell me if im not.

[Huckleberry]

I am referring to an infant that dies shortly after birth. The idea that such a creatures bears any responsibility for any sin is quite simply offensive to me. I can not accept any belief system that includes such a preposterous idea.

[revrew]

nfg22 - just noticed your sig line - "Bid that I may come and die and find that I may truly live"

I recognize that from Brad Olsen of The Waiting singing The Wonderful Cross. Is that where you get that from? Or is it picked up from an older source?

[Subby]

What is the Christian basis for the condemnation of homosexuality again? Is it a biblical passage or an almagam of mores that have been cobbled together over centuries or something else entirely?

[VPI97]

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.I also find it interesting, but not surprising, that when stripped of all the God and heaven references (above), it stil holds an awful lot of water.Ditto. The idea of enjoying life and respecting what life brings (minus the religious references) is the coda that I try to live my life by. It's worked out well so far.

[nfg22]

nfg22 - just noticed your sig line - "Bid that I may come and die and find that I may truly live"

I recognize that from Brad Olsen of The Waiting singing The Wonderful Cross. Is that where you get that from? Or is it picked up from an older source?

Yes that is the most moving line of any worship I have ever sung.

[nfg22]

What is the Christian basis for the condemnation of homosexuality again? Is it a biblical passage or an almagam of mores that have been cobbled together over centuries or something else entirely?

This is a topic of speciality for me.As I did a huge report on it.

Backround: Homosexuality originated in Babylon when they worshiped baal. The had sex with eachother to instill their good qualities in eachother and also masturbated from towers so their semen could hit the earth and inseminate it for baal to make feritle. This brings the argument that homosecuality is bad because it has to do with other religions. Yet the Greeks and Romans did it in their armys for reasons I stated earlier. Also in the book of Romans and other NT books it states that homosexuality is against God's will. Sex was meant for a united couple as one that God created to compliment eahother as said in Genesis. Males were not made to compliment eachother.

[revrew]

I am referring to an infant that dies shortly after birth. The idea that such a creatures bears any responsibility for any sin is quite simply offensive to me. I can not accept any belief system that includes such a preposterous idea.

Earlier there was a discussion about "age of accountability". Now, nowhere in the Bible or Jesus' recorded words do we get the question: "What happens when a baby dies? Well, what happens is..." So KNOWING for sure is tough.

However, there is the story of the death of King David's infant son. He said, point blank, "I will see my son later." This, and a few other instances, have led many to conclude that God must be allowing of infants into Heaven. It's not as ironclad as some other doctrines, but it is reasonable. Some would argue it is ironclad and provable. I, personally, would tend to agree with it.

The statement earlier that "original sin banishes all infants to hell" is a doctrine I'm unfamiliar with. It's possible some churches (where are Catholics on this one?) may take this stance, but I don't see much evidence of this one in Scripture.

btw, nfg--am a big fan of not only that song, but all of The Waiting's stuff. Agree that it's a powerful line.

[nfg22]

Earlier there was a discussion about "age of accountability". Now, nowhere in the Bible or Jesus' recorded words do we get the question: "What happens when a baby dies? Well, what happens is..." So KNOWING for sure is tough.

However, there is the story of the death of King David's infant son. He said, point blank, "I will see my son later." This, and a few other instances, have led many to conclude that God must be allowing of infants into Heaven. It's not as ironclad as some other doctrines, but it is reasonable. Some would argue it is ironclad and provable. I, personally, would tend to agree with it.

The statement earlier that "original sin banishes all infants to hell" is a doctrine I'm unfamiliar with. It's possible some churches (where are Catholics on this one?) may take this stance, but I don't see much evidence of this one in Scripture.

btw, nfg--am a big fan of not only that song, but all of The Waiting's stuff. Agree that it's a powerful line.

Didnt know who sung it just sing it in chapel sometimes and love it.

Thanks it was David not Solomon. I knew it was in the OT before Psalms

[revrew]

I've got to go all, but I'll check back later.

I would advise us NOT to get into the homosexual debate. It's not worth trashing a perfectly good thread by bringing up a redflag and then allowing it red herring. Start another thread if you want to get into that. And nfg22, other Christian posters haven't had the wisdom to heed this warning. If you're baited to get into it, start another thread for it.

Later...

[John Galt]

What is the Christian basis for the condemnation of homosexuality again? Is it a biblical passage or an almagam of mores that have been cobbled together over centuries or something else entirely?

It is from biblical passages. Some of them may have been mistranslated and most of the key ones are from Leviticus, but they can be derived from the text. It is still up in the air over whether the Bible truly condemns homosexuality (albeit, most here disagree with that), but there is textual support for the presumed condemnation.

[Subby]

This is a topic of speciality for me.As I did a huge report on it.

Backround: Homosexuality originated in Babylon when they worshiped baal. The had sex with eachother to instill their good qualities in eachother and also masturbated from towers so their semen could hit the earth and inseminate it for baal to make feritle.. That's interesting. Is there scientific or historical evidence that backs this up?


This brings the argument that homosecuality is bad because it has to do with other religions. Yet the Greeks and Romans did it in their armys for reasons I stated earlier. Can you expand on this point? What is the argument exactly and how do protestant sects and catholics use it to condem homosexuality?

Also in the book of Romans and other NT books it states that homosexuality is against God's will. Sex was meant for a united couple as one that God created to compliment eahother as said in Genesis. Males were not made to compliment eachother. What are the exact passages and what do they say? I don't really understand the "complement" angle. Does this refer to reproduction? Love? Sex?

I am not trying to bait you here. I am just not seeing a cohesive argument and would like some more information.

[John Galt]

I've got to go all, but I'll check back later.

I would advise us NOT to get into the homosexual debate. It's not worth trashing a perfectly good thread by bringing up a redflag and then allowing it red herring. Start another thread if you want to get into that. And nfg22, other Christian posters haven't had the wisdom to heed this warning. If you're baited to get into it, start another thread for it.

Later...

I agree with that (although I posted without seeing your post).

[Huckleberry]

revrew -

I understand that position. Still doesn't remove the fact that most Christian churches view the newborn as bearing original sin. And that is what's preposterous to me.

[druez]

Am I the only one who thinks god is bi-polar or a skittso? In the old testiment, he punishes those who defy him. He is a bad ass pist off god, he drops bombs on those who defy him.

In the new-testiment, he is a kinder gentler god. Who loves us all and gives us free will in life. NO smiting there?

Seems like the people who wrote the old testiment, realized it wasn't working well enough, so they wrote a new version to controll the masses.......

[druez]

I still think that since Jesus was a canabis user and as many people claim, the US is based on Jedeo Christian Principals, I should be allowed to use canabis.

[druez]

revrew -

I understand that position. Still doesn't remove the fact that most Christian churches view the newborn as bearing original sin. And that is what's preposterous to me.


I always thought, that Jesus died to take away that sin and the sins of man.

Another point, Anyone see the Simpsons episode when Homer dove into the Holy Water when Ned Flanders tried to baptise Maggie?

[Subby]

I would advise us NOT to get into the homosexual debate. It's not worth trashing a perfectly good thread by bringing up a redflag and then allowing it red herring. Start another thread if you want to get into that. And nfg22, other Christian posters haven't had the wisdom to heed this warning. If you're baited to get into it, start another thread for it. Well, I would disagree with you. This thread was started by ngf22 as a means of trying to provide answers for people who had issues or questions about Christianity. Segregating homosexuality or abortion into a separate thread guarantees a devolution of discussion. Keeping them in here will probably go a long way toward keeping the discussion civil...

[nfg22]

That's interesting. Is there scientific or historical evidence that backs this up?


Can you expand on this point? What is the argument exactly and how do protestant sects and catholics use it to condem homosexuality?

What are the exact passages and what do they say? I don't really understand the "complement" angle. Does this refer to reproduction? Love? Sex?

I am not trying to bait you here. I am just not seeing a cohesive argument and would like some more information.



I took this out of my paper. But I dont have the references on hand because that is packed away in all my papers. I will look at that if I have more time I need to go to work soon. But it was not biblical or Christian and came from some documents of archeologist.

The argument is that since the homosexuality is religion related(baal) then it is bad because it is tying u into another religion. but that is not true because the greeks and romans were condemned even though they didnt use it religiously. and Jesus also talked about sexual immorality but I dont have that off hand since im not a bible verse expert yet, but I am quite good with ideologys. I will look it up when I have more time.


The compliment angle is that woman was made from man's rib to beone with him. we are to be married and become one in God's eyes. worshiping him together and being uplifting in a spiritual way to eathother. I would love to expand but I have to leave for work thank you all.

[nfg22]

I still think that since Jesus was a canabis user and as many people claim, the US is based on Jedeo Christian Principals, I should be allowed to use canabis.


Last post before work
Cannabis is not condemned neither are drugs or driking. Problem being your body is the temple of God do not abuse it. If you get addicted and abuse these drugs then it is a problem but drinking sparingly or even cannabis I do not veiw as wrong.

[vex]

Am I the only one who thinks god is bi-polar or a skittso? In the old testiment, he punishes those who defy him. He is a bad ass pist off god, he drops bombs on those who defy him.

In the new-testiment, he is a kinder gentler god. Who loves us all and gives us free will in life. NO smiting there?

Seems like the people who wrote the old testiment, realized it wasn't working well enough, so they wrote a new version to controll the masses.......

Not read much of Revelation?

[nfg22]

By all have a good night...be back at like 11:00 central. to be lynched by all you:p

[Easy Mac]

Man was not originally created imperfect. It was when Adam and Eve disobeyed God that they were to be punished from then on.
They disobeyed him because he gave them free will, which is inherently an imperfect creation (hence why they were able to do the fall). Free will itself may be necessary to create a perfect thing, but the use of it is imperfect in the case of humans.

[druez]

Not read much of Revelation?


So, we are assuming that god realized the old testiment wasn't working. The rules were to harsh and he made a mistake. So in turn he changed his mind and decided to try a different approach?

[WSUCougar]

Another opinion to toss into the mix...

As humans we are largely driven by our instincts, like any other animal. Yet we have brain power - the power to choose - and that's what keeps us from being just another beast. We know the difference between right and wrong. Yet all too often we succumb to our base instincts, fear being the primary one. We steal, kill, lust, cheat, lie, and so on, because we are inherently selfish creatures still striving for survival in a harsh world.

I think the root message of Christianity is meant to counter those basic instincts. Instead of taking things for yourself, give them freely to others. Do not hurt other people for all the reasons that we humans do - instead, love one another. Help each other out instead of competing with one other in a battle for survival.

I think the notion of "original sin" speaks to this. We are all animals at our basest level. The "default setting" of our species is survival of the fittest, and we will sin by our very nature. The higher road beyond that is the difficult one.

[Subby]

Not read much of Revelation?Most, if not all, of your answers in this thread have been flippant and/or snide.

It would work better if you tried to be a little more respectful. If I can do it, you can too :)

[CubsFan915]

Well I have a few more minutes now because my paper isnt due till tommrow. in my opinion which may not be right but I believe this. If you know about Jesus yet dont believe then you will go to hell. But if you dont know yet live a good life and keep to high morals God will have forgiveness for those sins.

So, if one believes in Jesus, yet lives a good life and keeps to high morals...?

[vex]

So, we are assuming that god realized the old testiment wasn't working. The rules were to harsh and he made a mistake. So in turn he changed his mind and decided to try a different approach?
I'll take that as a resounding "no".

[vex]

Most, if not all, of your answers in this thread have been flippant and/or snide.

It would work better if you tried to be a little more respectful. If I can do it, you can too :)
All you have been doing is baiting people.

[CubsFan915]

Not to knock Catholics but there have been many times where they have done things for money. Like the wars when they incinuated that you could by salvation with donations wo the church to fund their wars.

We're not forgetting about Jerry Falwell and the baptists, now, are we? "I want you to reach deep into your hearts (and your pocketbooks) and take His hand. Because the Lord told me I need to have the mansion. And the Lord said that I NEED to open my own university."

[druez]

Last post before work
Cannabis is not condemned neither are drugs or driking. Problem being your body is the temple of God do not abuse it. If you get addicted and abuse these drugs then it is a problem but drinking sparingly or even cannabis I do not veiw as wrong.

The point I'm driving at is this. Drugs are very spiritual. Jesus was drenched in a canabis oil then had his visions where god spoke to him. I would imagine me or you might have a vision of god if we were drenched in canabis oil also. The Indians used to use drugs as a way to go on their spiritual journey's.

It is believed that canabis oil may have been used on the Leapors to help treat thier diesese... i.e. no miricles there.

[druez]

I'll take that as a resounding "no".

Yes, I have read the book of revelations. Whats your point? Though I will admit, I've been focusing quite a bit of my time on the old testiment. I'm trying to figure out how christians determine what in the old testiment is ok and what is not ok.

Maybe you can help me with that?

[WSUCougar]

druez, are you looking for a justification to use pot? It sounds like you are cool with it on a spiritual level, so why belabor the point? Sounds like your issue is with the American legal system, not Christianity.

[Subby]

All you have been doing is baiting people.If you feel that legitimate questions about fundamental Christian beliefs are baiting then you are way too defensive to even be involved in this discussion.

[CubsFan915]

ok last post before class. Good Question wigs. The thing is all those things u listed were in dueteronomy(sp?) That book was written to state the rules of their culture at the time and also to restate the Ten commandments.While we take some to heart we do not take others because they are not of our culture. While this can be veiwed as dodging what we dont like. Which all people do to an extent, like justifying their actions(Everyone even Christians have dont this.) But really God has made it clear to obey moral laws as so not to make a fool of yourself and make your religion and God look stupid if you would like I will write a commentary about every single one of those rules because that has been one of my biggest obsticales.

What about Leviticus? Anybody slaughtered a bull and made a burnt offering lately? My neoghbors always complain about the smell, and my apartment complex threatens to evict me because I don't have the altar 25 feet away from my building. How about the taking of slaves "thou shalt keep bondsmen, and bondsmaids" in Leviticus 25 (I believe)? Can I kidnap a family from out of town that looks like they are Muslims and make them my slaves?

[Bonegavel]

My biggest problem with Christianity (grew up attending a conservative baptist church - i.e., we didn't stand and wave our hands or speak out) is that the entire existence of man is already known to God, being that he is omniscient. So, God knew from the time of creation which humans would be going to heaven and which to hell. WTF? He knew that John Smith would never accept him and that he was doomed to hell before Genesis 1:1 was an ink stain on papyrus.

You can talk about free will all you want, but God already knows everything, so what is the point? It is like running a program that will print out the alphabet. Ho hum. Also, you can mention how "we can't understand all the thoughts of god" but yet we are supposed to determine on our own that without him (an invisible being much like NotMe from Family Circus), we are damned for all eternity?

Also, God is punishing all of humanity for the supposed mistakes of the very first human beings? Sounds like a caring and understanding god. Oh, and did I already mention that God is omniscient and therefore knew what Adam and Eve were up to? God is a good role model for parenting; From god to dad's, make sure you place the bottle of rat poison in the crib with the toddler. Warn them, but leave it there and see what happens, it will be a scream.

God is the Tim Taylor of creators. His entire creation exploded on him. First, Lucifer decides to ditch heaven for his own gig, and thereby create the reason for Hell (which wasn't initially meant for man). He didn't see that one coming? Then, the being created in his image takes up with the snake and damns ALL OF HUMANITY to lives of toil, Microsoft, and eventually HELL. Wow, what a deal. Was god busy setting up the Crab Nebula?

If God is as caring as loving as he is portrayed in the Bible, how could he allow one single human being to suffer for ETERNITY in Hell? We aren't talking a few weeks, or a month or a 100 years. For. Ever.

Must get back to work.

[sachmo71]

I'm still upset about the Catholic priests and the abuse cases. I'm having a very hard time making sense of the whole thing.

[VPI97]

If you know about Jesus yet dont believe then you will go to hell.Question: Does baptism alter that equation anywhere?

Baptized - Believed in Christianity - Changed mind - became athiest - Died = I'm going to hell in a handbasket, correct?

[vex]

Yes, I have read the book of revelations. Whats your point? Though I will admit, I've been focusing quite a bit of my time on the old testiment. I'm trying to figure out how christians determine what in the old testiment is ok and what is not ok.

Maybe you can help me with that?

It's mainly the Books of Law (I believe that's what they are) that are no longer applicable as they were written for the Israelites.

[druez]

druez, are you looking for a justification to use pot? It sounds like you are cool with it on a spiritual level, so why belabor the point? Sounds like your issue is with the American legal system, not Christianity.

Hmm, Not many christian leaders would agree with you on that topic. I just like to point out hypocracy when I see it.

[vex]

What about Leviticus? Anybody slaughtered a bull and made a burnt offering lately? My neoghbors always complain about the smell, and my apartment complex threatens to evict me because I don't have the altar 25 feet away from my building.

We no longer need to make sacrifices because the blood of Jesus covers all of our sins.

[druez]

It's mainly the Books of Law (I believe that's what they are) that are no longer applicable as they were written for the Israelites.

Correct, So then why do christians quote the old testiment to set the laws. For instance homosexuality?

[druez]

Is god all powerfull?

Is god all Knowing?

Is god all good?

Anyone?

[WSUCougar]

Question: Does baptism alter that equation anywhere?

Baptized - Believed in Christianity - Changed mind - became athiest - Died = I'm going to hell in a handbasket, correct?
I was raised Lutheran, and at least from that perspective I believe that baptism intends to carry a child (usually close to newborn) in Christ from birth through the act of confirmation, which is age 13 in the Lutheran church. Confirmation is the aforementioned "age of decision" or whatever you want to call it, wherein you make your choice to confirm your baptism and life as a Christian.

As for your equation, I think that whole rejection/atheism thing probably screws you over royally, VPI. ;)

[CubsFan915]

DOLA

This week is my point out silly things in christianity week I think. There are a quite a few more like these.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7

3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations

4. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.

Lev = Leviticus

Pretty fun stuff. Because we all know the bible isn't wrong!

No fair quoting directly from the piece on snopes...

[Drake]

Is god all powerfull?

Is god all Knowing?

Is god all good?

Anyone?


God is whatever He says He is.

Obviously, your plan here is to get someone to say "Why yes, God is all of those things!", then you'll come up with a bunch of justifications for why God is *not* those things. The bit you forget is that you are human and God is God. You can't judge the motives or actions of God in their entirety or in context because you have a grasp of neither. You can't see the full picture, only your puny little part. If you assume anything else, you are saying that God is not God, only a sort of super-human entity.

So believe what God says about Himself or not, but don't play stupid, sophomoric pseudo-logical games and pretend to be wise. I may not be a very good Xian, and I may disagree with the fundamentalist contingent on this board quite a bit, but at least most of them make an honest attempt to provide serious answers to serious questions. They deserve at least a little respect for making something as intensely personal as their religious faith vulnerable to public assault.

And if you don't believe in God at all, why work so hard to discredit Him? It's pathological to argue against things you don't believe exist.

[WSUCougar]

Is god all powerfull?

Is god all Knowing?

Is god all good?

Anyone?
I'll take the bait.

Yes
Yes
Yes

[AENeuman]

If God is supremely perfect, how can he create something with imperfections (humanity)? The very definition of perfection is that everything something does is perfect, it cannot create things that have imperfections.

The grand old debate. This was one of the main questions asked by the pagans in the early centuries. Celsus asked, If God is perfect, and perfection cannot change, then how is it that God via Jesus suffered?

What I think is at issue here is ontology vs. existentialism. Change as the result of experiences does not change ones being, if anything the being becomes more so (complete/aware). In other words, there is nothing we can do to change are human-ness, despite constant growing and experienceing. ex. children, and thier love, often further complete ones notion of self. it is like this type of love that we give and recieve from God that results in a further enriching by both parties. God gets something out of our love towards Him and our love towards another, that changing does not change the nature of God, or man. God created perfect humans, or humans how could be no more human.


BTW, To fully confuse, I think stubby's quote would make a very nice Christmas card, but other than that.... I think we all know what we should do, it would be a cold day when someone proclaims we should do the opposite of what was said.

[CubsFan915]

All you have been doing is baiting people.

I believe in and love God.

The best examples of God on this Earth are seen in nature, my wife and my four sons.

God is compassionate and forgiving. He is NOT jealous. Jealousy is a human flaw.

God realized that when he created humans he was creating something that was incapable of perfection and to that end we will all likely join him in the afterlife.

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.

See you in Heaven.



BUZZZZZZ. Thanks for playing!

[Bonegavel]

I've been doing a lot of thinking in the last few years of my life regarding this very topic and have finally come to the conclusion that I am a Deist. I believe that there is a higher power, but he was a set-it-and-forget-it god. He created this clambake and went on permanent vacation.

[CubsFan915]

Yes, I have read the book of revelations. Whats your point? Though I will admit, I've been focusing quite a bit of my time on the old testiment. I'm trying to figure out how christians determine what in the old testiment is ok and what is not ok.

Maybe you can help me with that?

From my understanding (which is more years ago than I care to admit to in Catechism class) the Gospel is the dividing line. Everything pre-Jesus is OT, while everything starting with Jesus' birth is NT. I'll gladly stand corrected if my memory is faulty.

[revrew]

So, we are assuming that god realized the old testiment wasn't working. The rules were to harsh and he made a mistake. So in turn he changed his mind and decided to try a different approach?

I suggest you read my post at the top of page 3 for some insight on this, but since I didn't have to go as quickly as I thought, I've got time to answer one more.

There isn't any "changing of mind," since the prophets very clearly and verbatim foretold of God's plan in Christ. First, he would give a chosen people a structure whereby following it would create a harmonious and holy nation. But, full well knowing that people couldn't hack it, he had a better plan in mind all along--the plan of indwelling, living inside (through the Holy Spirit--sorry, don't mean to get so "churchy" in my lingo) people and helping them live lives of love.

First, however, he allowed history to demonstrate mankind's complete inability to follow Him or build a godly society on their own. People since Adam have been so goddamned* sure of themselves, He said, "Fine. You want to do it on your own, go for it. Here's how you can do it. Go." That's the Old Testament.

Even today, people are still so goddamned* sure of their own ability to create Utopia without God that He still says, "Fine. Go for it. Do it your own way. I'll give you 7000 years (and counting) to get it right." He's still waiting...

But meanwhile, knowing there are some who will give up self-governance to follow a better way, he provided for it in Jesus. That's the New Testament.

As for his "schizophrenia", much of the warfare in the O.T. was to carve out a territory for his chosen people to live in peace. If you read the stories, however, the Israelites refused to follow his plans. They left the Palestinians alone, rather than conquering them. Then they made alliances with other countries. They totally messed up the plan. And this brought more bloodshed.

God is no less powerful or capable of dealing blows in the New Testament than He is the Old. But He chose to change how he dishes them up. Now that history has proven man will not be ruled from the outside, no matter how big and bad God's threat of punishment, he choses to reign from the inside. Through willing people who relinquish self-governance.

What happened to his wrath? His judgement? He is still mad as hell about every rape, murder, and injury committed. He is mad as hell that Christians don't get off their affluent, lazy behinds and do something about injustice in this world. And he is storing it all up to pour out in a place called hell. The Hitlers will get theirs, oh, yes, they'll get theirs. The only question is, you want a piece of that?

If God really was schizophrenic, we wouldn't have to fear Him at all. We'd all be in "grace time"--do whatever you want! But that wrath is still there. That demand for justice is still there. The great part of it is, he's holding off until as many people as can will allow someone else (Jesus) to take the punishment they've got coming.

It's not schizophrenic; it's simply a step by step story of God's plan to restore humanity. First, he gave us a choice. We chose evil. Then, he allowed us to try to fix it on our own. We messed up again. Then, he said, "Let me help you." That's where we are now. And finally, he'll say, "That's it. I'm wiping this sleazy world of hatred and evil and hurt right out of existence and starting over with a perfect world." That's heaven. That's yet to come (save for those who die now and go early.)

(*use of word "goddamned" intentional, as it's not in vain, but meant in every way.)

[VPI97]

As for your equation, I think that whole rejection/atheism thing probably screws you over royally, VPI. ;)I was raised in an Episcopal church...They tend to alter the rules as they go along, so I think I may have a loophole or something I can fall back on :)

[Bonegavel]

From my understanding (which is more years ago than I care to admit to in Catechism class) the Gospel is the dividing line. Everything pre-Jesus is OT, while everything starting with Jesus' birth is NT. I'll gladly stand corrected if my memory is faulty.
I think he meant which parts of the old testatment are worth following and which are not. I.e., there is stuff in there about not counting your nose hairs on Thursdays, and other stuff about loving people or something.

[CubsFan915]

We no longer need to make sacrifices because the blood of Jesus covers all of our sins.

I'm certainly not trying to be contradictory, but can anyone point this passage out for me?

[CubsFan915]

I think he meant which parts of the old testatment are worth following and which are not. I.e., there is stuff in there about not counting your nose hairs on Thursdays, and other stuff about loving people or something.

Whoops. My bad. Thanks, Gavel. (Or do you prefer Bone? :) )

[Easy Mac]

What I think is at issue here is ontology vs. existentialism. Change as the result of experiences does not change ones being, if anything the being becomes more so (complete/aware). In other words, there is nothing we can do to change are human-ness, despite constant growing and experienceing. ex. children, and thier love, often further complete ones notion of self. it is like this type of love that we give and recieve from God that results in a further enriching by both parties. God gets something out of our love towards Him and our love towards another, that changing does not change the nature of God, or man. God created perfect humans, or humans how could be no more human.
I understand what you're saying, but you're saying that to believe im God, we have to feel humanity is as perfect as it will get, and I just can't believe that.

[Subby]

I think stubby's quote would make a very nice Christmas card, but other than that.... Easy there...stubby is my porn name. I use Subby when I am in dignified company. ;)

[WSUCougar]

I use Subby when I am in dignified company.
...thus his use of "stubby"... :D

[Subby]

...thus his use of "stubby"... :DWhoops! Didn't see you over there fiddling with the stereo.

My bad. ;)

[revrew]

I'm certainly not trying to be contradictory, but can anyone point this passage out for me?

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day...He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 10:1-18 "The Law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming...those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...and by that will we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...and where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin."

There are others...

[AENeuman]

First, however, he allowed history to demonstrate mankind's complete inability to follow Him or build a godly society on their own. People since Adam have been so goddamned* sure of themselves, He said, "Fine. You want to do it on your own, go for it. Here's how you can do it. Go." That's the Old Testament.
Uhmm...no. You can't reduce the history of the Jewish peoples as a futile attempt at the expense of God's stubborness. Knowing God is a process, one that I think from juddging this thread has still a ways to go. So to say that it was all bad before, then poof, all was set right is a bit much. The process of the Bible is a process of realizing God's love. The problems came in how the show this love and what having this love meant. One big hurdle was getting over the fact that God's love and being obident to His laws does not prevent suffering. This was certainitly put to rest with Jesus (pun). I think it's too much to say that God tried diffrent approaches rather than the Bible is a process of us trying diffrent approaches on God. Also, it seems that the Holy Spirit, which was always present, spoke in the language which would be heard the loudest, whether it be formal rules, exile, or great myths like David, Jonnah and Job.

[AENeuman]

Sorry Subby.
Easy Mac, I do not mean to say humanity is perfect esp. if you say the actions make the person. I'm saying humans are fully human and God is fully God despite the experiences and change that may occur via time. Going with my metaphor, most humans have never felt the love from their children (God), and are thus not growing as much as they could be. But they are still human, just not even clost to their capcity.

[revrew]

Uhmm...no. You can't reduce the history of the Jewish peoples as a futile attempt at the expense of God's stubborness. Knowing God is a process... The process of the Bible is a process of realizing God's love... I think it's too much to say that God tried diffrent approaches rather than the Bible is a process of us trying diffrent approaches on God.

From what I've read into your comments, I think I agree completely. My "synopsis" of "The Grand Narrative" was intentionally painted quickly, with broad strokes. It has taken God 66 books and another 2000 years of history to tell this story. If I try to do it in 3 paragraphs, I'm going to overgeneralize BIG TIME. You caught me on overgeneralizing.

I'm not sure who's to blame for it, but you're right on saying that we have only related to God in part, and then in increasing parts, through history. I didn't mean to imply there was a "boom-it's all good moment". In fact, we're still activley messing up the redemption story (church history--c'mon), and the only boom-it's all good moment is yet to come.

[druez]

I suggest you read my post at the top of page 3 for some insight on this, but since I didn't have to go as quickly as I thought, I've got time to answer one more.

There isn't any "changing of mind," since the prophets very clearly and verbatim foretold of God's plan in Christ. First, he would give a chosen people a structure whereby following it would create a harmonious and holy nation. But, full well knowing that people couldn't hack it, he had a better plan in mind all along--the plan of indwelling, living inside (through the Holy Spirit--sorry, don't mean to get so "churchy" in my lingo) people and helping them live lives of love.

First, however, he allowed history to demonstrate mankind's complete inability to follow Him or build a godly society on their own. People since Adam have been so goddamned* sure of themselves, He said, "Fine. You want to do it on your own, go for it. Here's how you can do it. Go." That's the Old Testament.

Even today, people are still so goddamned* sure of their own ability to create Utopia without God that He still says, "Fine. Go for it. Do it your own way. I'll give you 7000 years (and counting) to get it right." He's still waiting...

But meanwhile, knowing there are some who will give up self-governance to follow a better way, he provided for it in Jesus. That's the New Testament.

As for his "schizophrenia", much of the warfare in the O.T. was to carve out a territory for his chosen people to live in peace. If you read the stories, however, the Israelites refused to follow his plans. They left the Palestinians alone, rather than conquering them. Then they made alliances with other countries. They totally messed up the plan. And this brought more bloodshed.

God is no less powerful or capable of dealing blows in the New Testament than He is the Old. But He chose to change how he dishes them up. Now that history has proven man will not be ruled from the outside, no matter how big and bad God's threat of punishment, he choses to reign from the inside. Through willing people who relinquish self-governance.

What happened to his wrath? His judgement? He is still mad as hell about every rape, murder, and injury committed. He is mad as hell that Christians don't get off their affluent, lazy behinds and do something about injustice in this world. And he is storing it all up to pour out in a place called hell. The Hitlers will get theirs, oh, yes, they'll get theirs. The only question is, you want a piece of that?

If God really was schizophrenic, we wouldn't have to fear Him at all. We'd all be in "grace time"--do whatever you want! But that wrath is still there. That demand for justice is still there. The great part of it is, he's holding off until as many people as can will allow someone else (Jesus) to take the punishment they've got coming.

It's not schizophrenic; it's simply a step by step story of God's plan to restore humanity. First, he gave us a choice. We chose evil. Then, he allowed us to try to fix it on our own. We messed up again. Then, he said, "Let me help you." That's where we are now. And finally, he'll say, "That's it. I'm wiping this sleazy world of hatred and evil and hurt right out of existence and starting over with a perfect world." That's heaven. That's yet to come (save for those who die now and go early.)

(*use of word "goddamned" intentional, as it's not in vain, but meant in every way.)

If made this post quite often. This was the best answer I've ever seen. I might not agree with it, but I can definately follow your logic.

[druez]

God is whatever He says He is.

Obviously, your plan here is to get someone to say "Why yes, God is all of those things!", then you'll come up with a bunch of justifications for why God is *not* those things. The bit you forget is that you are human and God is God. You can't judge the motives or actions of God in their entirety or in context because you have a grasp of neither. You can't see the full picture, only your puny little part. If you assume anything else, you are saying that God is not God, only a sort of super-human entity.

So believe what God says about Himself or not, but don't play stupid, sophomoric pseudo-logical games and pretend to be wise. I may not be a very good Xian, and I may disagree with the fundamentalist contingent on this board quite a bit, but at least most of them make an honest attempt to provide serious answers to serious questions. They deserve at least a little respect for making something as intensely personal as their religious faith vulnerable to public assault.

And if you don't believe in God at all, why work so hard to discredit Him? It's pathological to argue against things you don't believe exist.


I never said I didn't believe in god. I believe in a constant force of the universe. The first "cause". I do not believe there is a god that sits in judgement of us. I do believe there is an universal truth for lack of a better word.

So, I do believe in a higher power, but I don't believe god is has human characteristics or emotions. Which is the number one reason I don't believe the bible. It was written by Humans, to controll humans. The bible is filled full of human emotions and situations.

[Easy Mac]

what caused the first cause?

[druez]

I'll take the bait.

Yes
Yes
Yes

While Drake might think I might try and descredit god. I am inclined to ask the following questions, or show you the paradox of these answers and as they apply to earth today.

God knows Evil Exists, because he is all knowing.
God wants to destroy that evil, because he is all good.
God is all powerful so he could destroy this evil.

If these statements are true, then evil should not exist. He has the power to destroy it, knows its there and is all good so he must destroy it by your thinking.

[druez]

what caused the first cause?

I wish I knew. I would imagine this constant force has always been around. The question is what existed at first how can their be a beginning to time, what was before that beginning etc...

I just think its as nieve for us to look at a judging god for all of our answers as it was for the Indians to say hmmm Sun God, or Moon God or Earth god etc....

There is a balance in the universe good and evil are relative.

[Easy Mac]

or is it that the ultimate good can only be known by the evil.

If we didn't know how bad things can be, would we ever really know when things are good?

[revrew]

While Drake might think I might try and descredit god. I am inclined to ask the following questions, or show you the paradox of these answers and as they apply to earth today.

God knows Evil Exists, because he is all knowing.
God wants to destroy that evil, because he is all good.
God is all powerful so he could destroy this evil.

If these statements are true, then evil should not exist. He has the power to destroy it, knows its there and is all good so he must destroy it by your thinking.

Your logical fallacy in this a=b=c equation is with b. You suggest that an all good god must necessarily want to destroy all evil (or) that because he wants to, he necessarily will. The simple existence of a reason for evil, which would be "better" than eliminating it, makes your equation mute and your conclusion incorrect.

The previous poster who suggested this was a silly logical game was correct. But other than that, I won't give you crap. I've appreciated your other questions and contributions to this discussion.

[fhasumi]

Didn't we all have this discussion before in the other thread?

[Marc Vaughan]

DOLA
This week is my point out silly things in christianity week I think. There are a quite a few more like these.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7
3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations
4. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.

Lev = Leviticus
Pretty fun stuff. Because we all know the bible isn't wrong!

Main thing when reading the bible is to take things in context and not simply pick statements or contradictions to make a point.

Yes much of the old testament is rather violent and their laws and rules are very strange in relation to modern day society.

However the rules set down by Jesus as the way to live in the new testament supercede any given in the old testament.

Why did God require a revised rule set you ask if he's infallible? ... (been here, asked this myself - came up with this possible conclusion) ....

I think of it along the lines of human society not being at a level of being able to follow a more stingent/advanced (delete as you feel applicable) rule set during the times of the old testament, once they were able to do so a new set of rules were given out.

This is equivalent to the difference in expectations that a child has of its children, when very young you let them get away with simpler cruder rules than when they are older and can understand more.

NB. No answers which I might post are in these discussions are 'true' (and indeed I won't even claim they'll make sense to everyone who reads them) - they are simply the most rational explanation I could discern for the cases in question.

[fhasumi]

Technically, according to the Bible, it's illegal to "allow your seed to spill upon the ground."

That would mean that every farmer in the world is going to Hell.

[Marc Vaughan]

God knows Evil Exists, because he is all knowing.
God wants to destroy that evil, because he is all good.
God is all powerful so he could destroy this evil.
If these statements are true, then evil should not exist. He has the power to destroy it, knows its there and is all good so he must destroy it by your thinking.

Ok look at this another way, when you have a child it is born innocent - if that child then does something you don't like do you kill it?

God gave mankind free will, how man used it was up to him*.

God is the 'father' of humanity, even if humans are all sinful/evil in nature should be simply dispose of the race? - or should he take a more peaceful approach and give us the chance to redeem ourselves in the same way that we'd expect a good parent to.

According to the bible God has given humans that chance by the death of Jesus. Thus God (again according to the bible) is destroying evil, but first he's giving man a chance to redeem himself ... this fits in fairly neatly with your questions imho.

*There's the seperate conflict of God giving free-will which I'll go over in my next post.

[Marc Vaughan]

(I'll apologise in advance for this post - I've thought twice about posting it as its not something which I can generally explain coherantly person to person, so God knows how badly I'll manage it at 00:19 in the morning via. the medium of a message board)

One of the things which bugged me for a long time was the contradiction in people having been given free will, it goes along these lines:

Proviso:
* God is omnipotent

Thus:
* God knows everything thats going to happen
* God can do anything

Problem:
If God knows everything thats going to happen then everything is predetermined.
If everything is predetermined then how can anyone have 'free will'.

This is something which bugged me for a long time, as with many of my problems I came to a conclusion which I was content with by drawing conclusions with programming (sad but true).

Ok, bear with me - this is probably going to ramble.

* God knows the past, present and future of everything.
* God gives people free will, at this point he knows all of the possible past, present and futures that can occur - but individual free wills are as yet undetermined (in fact in my theory all possibilities happen as this removes any restrictions on Gods omnipotence, your free will is actually determining which of an infine number of realities which you are in - yeah I know this has gone a tad surreal now).

My programming analogy with this - its CM based (hurrah ;) ) :D

To set the scene let me introduce the players:
* God (played by the CM match engine, sorry God its an analogy ok? ;) )
* The universe/time (played by the fixture result, yeah I know its stretching things somewhat)
* You (played by errr you, should have warned you that reading this might involve having to purchase a copy of CM (cough) ;) )

The CM match engine plays the entire match out before a user starts a match (ie. it knows what is going to happen before it has done so).

The result is thus pre-determined, however 'you' the player have free-will and can depart from this pre-determined path at any point by making a tactical change and unknown to yourself changing a pre-determined reality you didn't realise existed.

(to take my analogy further I could re-engineer the CM match engine to work out every possible change a human could make and pregenerate them in advance (taking only possibly a year or so ;) ), hence creating for the purposes of this analogy the alternate realities I mentioned earlier.)

[Marc Vaughan]

If God is as caring as loving as he is portrayed in the Bible, how could he allow one single human being to suffer for ETERNITY in Hell? We aren't talking a few weeks, or a month or a 100 years. For. Ever.

As I mentioned in the previous thread many peoples interpretation of "Hell" isn't fire and brimstone and is simply the concept of missing out of an eternity shared in communion with God.

Thus in itself "Hell" might be pleasurable to a person, however compared to "Heaven" it would be intolerable.

The choice between "Heaven" and "Hell" is then down to an individual choosing to know God or not ... and thus isn't God being 'evil' by casting someone into Hell, its a choice they make out of their free-will.

[Buccaneer]

I am overjoyed to see such great discussions. Blessings to all of my fellow believers for presenting the complexities of faith, sin and God's Words.

(bro, you are showing off again :) )

[Buccaneer]

Marc, great post in coming up with an analogy of one of the toughest theological thoughts.

To me, the omniscience (sp?) God is our Father, we are His children. Just like some of us are fathers to our children, we want our child to learn, to grow and to mature. Sometimes we have to correct wrongs and enforce consequences of actions,while sometimes we just stand back and let the child discover right/wrong on his/her own (usually learning from doing some bad). The trials and tribulations we all experience are part of the learning experience. Even though our Father knows the outcome, we have to experience it ourselves and learn from it so we can grow closer to Him. That is why the parable of the Prodigal Son is my favorite.

[CubsFan915]

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day...He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 10:1-18 "The Law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming...those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...and by that will we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...and where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin."

There are others...

Thanks, rev.

[CubsFan915]

Main thing when reading the bible is to take things in context and not simply pick statements or contradictions to make a point.

Yes much of the old testament is rather violent and their laws and rules are very strange in relation to modern day society.

However the rules set down by Jesus as the way to live in the new testament supercede any given in the old testament.

Why did God require a revised rule set you ask if he's infallible? ... (been here, asked this myself - came up with this possible conclusion) ....

I think of it along the lines of human society not being at a level of being able to follow a more stingent/advanced (delete as you feel applicable) rule set during the times of the old testament, once they were able to do so a new set of rules were given out.

This is equivalent to the difference in expectations that a child has of its children, when very young you let them get away with simpler cruder rules than when they are older and can understand more.

NB. No answers which I might post are in these discussions are 'true' (and indeed I won't even claim they'll make sense to everyone who reads them) - they are simply the most rational explanation I could discern for the cases in question.

Hey - don't you have a sports sim to design? Quit talking about God and pound out more code! :)

[Noop]

May I ask one thing when Jesus was praying who was he praying to? I mean if he is God why would he pray to himself when he could just heal with a mere thought.

[revrew]

May I ask one thing when Jesus was praying who was he praying to? I mean if he is God why would he pray to himself when he could just heal with a mere thought.

These prayer passages are some of the basis of "trinitarian" theology. Scripturally, Jesus is affirmed as God - i.e. "one with the Father." But the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (choose to?) exist in a relationship with one another. Thus, they can speak to one another.

In these cases, it was Son speaking with Father. Some have suggested that Jesus, having a human brain, thus limited his divine omniscience (this jives with him saying he didn't know when he would return, but the Father did). In which case, Jesus would desire to have things happen (healings, miracles, etc.), but he demonstrated submitting his desires to the perfect knowledge and will of God. This also jives with him saying, "Not my will, Father, but thine be done." In other words, Jesus' human nature desired things, but his divine nature would only make them happen if he submitted to the Father's will/plan. Thus, he would pray.

In another case (John 11), he said point blank, "I know you hear me, Father, but I pray for the benefit of those who overhear." Some simply explain this by saying Jesus was setting an example by praying.

Either explanation works for me.

[Noop]

So why do you refer to Jesus as God in human form? DId God say thou shall not worship any man or god before me. And you just said Jesus was a human.... explain please.

[Bonegavel]

As I mentioned in the previous thread many peoples interpretation of "Hell" isn't fire and brimstone and is simply the concept of missing out of an eternity shared in communion with God.

Thus in itself "Hell" might be pleasurable to a person, however compared to "Heaven" it would be intolerable.

The choice between "Heaven" and "Hell" is then down to an individual choosing to know God or not ... and thus isn't God being 'evil' by casting someone into Hell, its a choice they make out of their free-will.
I realise that Hell is technically "absence of god" which stands to reason that we may indeed be living in hell at this very moment. If God is nothing more than an invisible man and we have to "guess" he is doing stuff, I think it can be argued that he ain't around here.

However, if *hell* is pleasurable to any degree, then I see no issue at all with any of this. Don't believe: Laugh with the sinners. Believe: cry with the saints. You just took away one of Christianities main weapons.

[Bonegavel]

[snipping for brevity]


Ok, bear with me - this is probably going to ramble.

* God knows the past, present and future of everything.
* God gives people free will, at this point he knows all of the possible past, present and futures that can occur - but individual free wills are as yet undetermined (in fact in my theory all possibilities happen as this removes any restrictions on Gods omnipotence, your free will is actually determining which of an infine number of realities which you are in - yeah I know this has gone a tad surreal now).

My programming analogy with this - its CM based (hurrah ;) ) :D

[snipped for brevity]
Infinite number of realities (something I am a big fan of) still doesn't mean that God doesn't simultaneously understand all 'sideways eights' of them. Omniscience means All Knowing. God is a very good multitasker (unlike windows). To me, and I know mileage varies on this, either God is all knowing or he isn't. The bible says he is. If he is, Earth is really just an enormous pain simulation that he is allowing to occur and he knows each and every gory line of code and the results that it will produce. If that is true, seems to me that he could have had me worshipping him in a lot easier fashion.

Selling your game in a Jesus thread. Marc, you just might burn..., I mean, you just might find yourself in partial pleasure for that. :)

[Bonegavel]

One other thing, before I head to bed. All this talk of free will. According to the bible, the plan was for Jesus to DIE for our sins. That means that somebody had to KILL him. Killing breaks a commandment. God needed somebody to break a commandment in order for this all to come true. Somebody had to be *coerced* beyond the norm for this to happen as planned, meaning that free-will would not have been allowed in this case.

Imagine if this supposed free will would have kicked in and the Romans had refused to crucify christ or Jesus would have fled instead of allowing himself to be captured (he should have had free will as well), ad infinitum. Wouldn't this have put a wrinkle in things?

[Aesyrqwe]

Imagine if this supposed free will would have kicked in and the Romans had refused to crucify christ or Jesus would have fled instead of allowing himself to be captured (he should have had free will as well), ad infinitum. Wouldn't this have put a wrinkle in things?

Thank God that didnt happen..

-Aes-

[revrew]

So why do you refer to Jesus as God in human form? DId God say thou shall not worship any man or god before me. And you just said Jesus was a human.... explain please.

What you're asking for is an explanation of the Trinity. Or at least, the Incarnation. The simplest analogy I've heard is this:

Sunlight: is it electromagnetically charges particles? Or light? Or heat? The answer is yes. All three. Seperately. And the same. None exist without the other without ceasing to be sunlight.

Likewise, God the Eternal Father, Incarnated Son, and Holy Spirit are one in the same. Seperate. But the same. God would not be God without one of the beings. Yet he is fully all three. They're not puzzle pieces. He's like sunlight.

Now, if Jesus IS God, then worshipping him is not worshipping someone "before God," it's simply worshipping God.

*****

And as for all this free will/omniscience/predestination stuff, the existence of knowledge does not eliminate the freedom of choice. Neither does choice rule out divine planning. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Why not? Because Christianity understands (though it is difficult to wrap a finite mind around) that God is timeless. He exists outside of time. Today is no different from yesterday or tomorrow to Him. Therefore, he can know yesterday what you will do tomorrow, because he lives in all three at once. It has been a foolish debate within Christianity to pit free will and sovereignty against one another as opposites. Sorry we have confused the rest of the world.

[Drake]

Hey - don't you have a sports sim to design? Quit talking about God and pound out more code! :)

Couldn't one say that in the above posts that Marc is actually pounding out moral code?

[tucker342]

From the Simpsons:

Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it.

Now there's a question:D

[druez]

Your logical fallacy in this a=b=c equation is with b. You suggest that an all good god must necessarily want to destroy all evil (or) that because he wants to, he necessarily will. The simple existence of a reason for evil, which would be "better" than eliminating it, makes your equation mute and your conclusion incorrect.

The previous poster who suggested this was a silly logical game was correct. But other than that, I won't give you crap. I've appreciated your other questions and contributions to this discussion.

Or perhaps there is no such thing as good or evil and its all about perception?

Another thing I would like to point out. There are a billion budhists who disagree with christians, so are they condemned to hell?

Are the Jews destined to goto hell?

Hindu's?

It just seems very narrowminded to only believe what you are taught and not take other religions and/or philosophies in life into consideration....

[druez]

One last post of the night on this topic.

One of underlying reasons that Pagans, Atheists and Agnostics are always "attacking", "questioning" or "defending" is the intollerence that other religions or beliefs show to us. The only way for us to try and explain to you why we think the way we do is to point out flaws in every religion to try and get people to think about it from another perspective other then the one they were blindly taught to follow from a young age.

I really don't care if someone believes in god. In fact my beliefs are hard to swallow and take a strong person to have. It's not as scary to think about dying, if you know by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior you have a ticket to heaven and enternal bliss.

But, what I do have issues with are christians that think I'm not fit to be around them, if I don't believe. I do have issues with people judging me or condeming me based on my ability to have independent thought. Its a natural human reaction for me to at times to attack, at other times question or simply laugh at it all and poke fun.

Don't get me wrong these same flaws can be found in every religion, maybe some have more then others.

I'll sum it up this way for you all. I try and lead a good life. I respect and honor my friends and family. I would help someone in a life threatening sittuation even if I put myself a risk. I can say this because, I was once in this situation and reacted in a way in which I endangered my life to help a complete stranger. I was more surprised ay myself than you can imagine.

I believe that everyone is inately good and evil, we are what we are. Everyone knows certain universal truths. I mean do we assume the indians of north america were all evil because they weren't exposed to Christ?

This below is said with the assumption that I may be wrong.... I don't think I am, but who knows

Anyway, if there is a god as described in the bible and I am wrong about all this and If I live a good life and try to do the right thing and he still doesn't except me into heaven, then that is on him not me. God gave me independent thought, he gave me the ability to question and not blindly obey. If he still wants to send me to hell, then I don't want to goto heaven, because that isn't any kind of god I want to be around.

God or as I call it the constant, wouldnt' have all these human emotions put to him. I don't think god is so insecure that he would want us to worship him....

[nfg22]

The thing is if there was no ther choice besides good because God killed evil then why would we have freedom of choice?

[dawgfan]

Nicely put druez. You've summed up a lot of my feelings on the subject.

[nfg22]

One last post of the night on this topic.

One of underlying reasons that Pagans, Atheists and Agnostics are always "attacking", "questioning" or "defending" is the intollerence that other religions or beliefs show to us. The only way for us to try and explain to you why we think the way we do is to point out flaws in every religion to try and get people to think about it from another perspective other then the one they were blindly taught to follow from a young age.

I really don't care if someone believes in god. In fact my beliefs are hard to swallow and take a strong person to have. It's not as scary to think about dying, if you know by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior you have a ticket to heaven and enternal bliss.

But, what I do have issues with are christians that think I'm not fit to be around them, if I don't believe. I do have issues with people judging me or condeming me based on my ability to have independent thought. Its a natural human reaction for me to at times to attack, at other times question or simply laugh at it all and poke fun.

Don't get me wrong these same flaws can be found in every religion, maybe some have more then others.

I'll sum it up this way for you all. I try and lead a good life. I respect and honor my friends and family. I would help someone in a life threatening sittuation even if I put myself a risk. I can say this because, I was once in this situation and reacted in a way in which I endangered my life to help a complete stranger. I was more surprised ay myself than you can imagine.

I believe that everyone is inately good and evil, we are what we are. Everyone knows certain universal truths. I mean do we assume the indians of north america were all evil because they weren't exposed to Christ?

This below is said with the assumption that I may be wrong.... I don't think I am, but who knows

Anyway, if there is a god as described in the bible and I am wrong about all this and If I live a good life and try to do the right thing and he still doesn't except me into heaven, then that is on him not me. God gave me independent thought, he gave me the ability to question and not blindly obey. If he still wants to send me to hell, then I don't want to goto heaven, because that isn't any kind of god I want to be around.

God or as I call it the constant, wouldnt' have all these human emotions put to him. I don't think god is so insecure that he would want us to worship him....


A few things....


I will never think I am too good for you... I may be saved from sin but I myself and still a sinner just like you.

Two...Even Christians should believe everyone is good and evil. We were modeled after God but we also have sinned and fall to temptation making us evil.

Three...God wants us to worship him, not because he is insecure but in doing so we may experience even the fraction of the joy He does.


Thats all I have at the moment.

[McSweeny]

this has been a great read and i've enjoyed it and learned a lot. This has been a great change of pace from the way these threads usually end up. I really agree with what Subby had to say earlier in the thread and what druez just said. And i find the comments by HPF and QuikSand hit home. Jesus said "Love Everyone" and that's what a lot of it boils down to for me.

On a lighter note not to be confused with baiting anyone:

Can God make a stone so big that he would not be able to move it? :)

[nfg22]

this has been a great read and i've enjoyed it and learned a lot. This has been a great change of pace from the way these threads usually end up. I really agree with what Subby had to say earlier in the thread and what druez just said. And i find the comments by HPF and QuikSand hit home. Jesus said "Love Everyone" and that's what a lot of it boils down to for me.

On a lighter note not to be confused with baiting anyone:

Can God make a stone so big that he would not be able to move it? :)

Jokingly, This is why he made Jesus because he is God yet he could not move the stone, but God in the omnicent form could. :p

[nfg22]

Good night all.

[Marc Vaughan]

Hey - don't you have a sports sim to design? Quit talking about God and pound out more code! :)
:D

PS. What do you think I'm doing up online at mid-night UK time .... ;)

[Marc Vaughan]

I realise that Hell is technically "absence of god" which stands to reason that we may indeed be living in hell at this very moment. If God is nothing more than an invisible man and we have to "guess" he is doing stuff, I think it can be argued that he ain't around here.
The idea is that God is still very much with us through the Holy Spirit, however whether you have a relationship with him is entirely up to the individual.

However, if *hell* is pleasurable to any degree, then I see no issue at all with any of this. Don't believe: Laugh with the sinners. Believe: cry with the saints. You just took away one of Christianities main weapons.
Please bear in mind that I don't think there are any 'weapons' in the Christian faith, indeed if hell is pleasurable to an extent then fine - however compared to enternal communion with a loving God it is indeed "Hell".

I'm not trying to convert people just give rational answers (as I see them) for the questions posed, each person individually must come to their own conclusions about religion and their place in the world.

[druez]

The idea is that God is still very much with us through the Holy Spirit, however whether you have a relationship with him is entirely up to the individual.


Please bear in mind that I don't think there are any 'weapons' in the Christian faith, indeed if hell is pleasurable to an extent then fine - however compared to enternal communion with a loving God it is indeed "Hell".

I'm not trying to convert people just give rational answers (as I see them) for the questions posed, each person individually must come to their own conclusions about religion and their place in the world.

Marc,

If you would like to help me see the light. Do this! Create an American Football Game. If god does indeed exist and love all of his children he would use devine inspiration to have you and your boys create an American Football Game for us over here in the states. That is all I want for proof!

Come on NFG and EHM FE.

That is all, now let us pray.

[AgPete]

Marc,

If you would like to help me see the light. Do this! Create an American Football Game. If god does indeed exist and love all of his children he would use devine inspiration to have you and your boys create an American Football Game for us over here in the states. That is all I want for proof!

Come on NFG and EHM FE.

That is all, now let us pray.

LOL I completely agree. I've never tried the CM games because I'm not a soccer fan but from what I understand, they're the best text sims out there. I will cry hallelujah and praise any god if we can get an American football sim from the masters. :)

[sachmo71]

Some of you may be interested in this:

http://www.killingthebuddha.com/manifesto.htm


Here is a link to the main page...

http://www.killingthebuddha.com/index.htm

[Noop]

Marc,

If you would like to help me see the light. Do this! Create an American Football Game. If god does indeed exist and love all of his children he would use devine inspiration to have you and your boys create an American Football Game for us over here in the states. That is all I want for proof!
I would like to second this motion. Maybe you can be the guy that makes Jim step up his game. :D

:)

noop

[HornedFrog Purple]

One other thing, before I head to bed. All this talk of free will. According to the bible, the plan was for Jesus to DIE for our sins. That means that somebody had to KILL him. Killing breaks a commandment. God needed somebody to break a commandment in order for this all to come true. Somebody had to be *coerced* beyond the norm for this to happen as planned, meaning that free-will would not have been allowed in this case.

Imagine if this supposed free will would have kicked in and the Romans had refused to crucify christ or Jesus would have fled instead of allowing himself to be captured (he should have had free will as well), ad infinitum. Wouldn't this have put a wrinkle in things?

There was no coersion involved. The fall of Man includes the temptation of evil no matter what kind or degree of evil. It is mankind's perogative to destroy rather than create. I don't think that requires any form of faith to realize this is inherently true.

Christ knew his destiny and why He was brought to this Earth. He came to give mankind atonement through the ultimate sacrifice and to teach the most fundamental joy of humanity which is to love. When He was well on his way to dying He asked God to intervene "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" God could have easily done so, but that would have done nothing except strengthen the idea of fearing Him.

The concept of a Creator is a hard one to grasp and one I struggle with to this day. We try to put 3 dimensions to it, but in my opinion it is like trying to draw a sketch of an infinitely dimensional being. We are just not given the tools to draw it. ;)

As far as myself, I enjoy and listen to people of all faiths or lack thereof. It does not make them a better or worse person than myself because in the end we are all on the same boat.

Kudos to everyone no matter your thoughts on this matter for not making this thread sink into what it usually does.

[druez]

Some of you may be interested in this:

http://www.killingthebuddha.com/manifesto.htm

I must think on this

[revrew]

druez, thank you for the heart-felt, thoughtful post I quote below. I appreciate the greater level of vulnerability, and I hope to handle it with respect. Because you put so much thought into it, I'd like to respond, though I don't want to rehash what nfg22 said.

The only way for us to try and explain to you why we think the way we do is to point out flaws in every religion to try and get people to think about it from another perspective other then the one they were blindly taught to follow from a young age.

In other words, you're bringing forth the doubts that have led you to your current understanding. Fair enough. You're simply reasoning from your experience, and your experience has been questions and doubts. God respects that. I'd just like to mention that my current Christian beliefs were not taught me at a young age, and that I only arrived at them after similar experiences with doubts and search for meaning

But, what I do have issues with are christians that think I'm not fit to be around them, if I don't believe. I do have issues with people judging me or condeming me based on my ability to have independent thought. Its a natural human reaction for me to at times to attack, at other times question or simply laugh at it all and poke fun.

I take issues with this too. God has issues with this, big time. Jesus exemplified over and over and the Bible tells us over and over that too-good-for-you religiousity is WRONG. But what can I say? God is in the business of saving jerks and jackasses, and sometimes it takes a while for Him to flush those tendencies out of a person.

Anyway, if there is a god as described in the bible and I am wrong about all this and If I live a good life and try to do the right thing and he still doesn't except me into heaven, then that is on him not me. God gave me independent thought, he gave me the ability to question and not blindly obey.

Herein is the difficult question. IF the God of the Bible is true, and IF Jesus was who he said he was, then we all share responsibility in killing the Son of God. I know you try to be good and all, but if a man is basically a good guy, but murders your son, are you going to go to the judge and say, "Hey, let him off the hook. He's a good guy most of the time"? Would you really say to the Father of the boy you killed, "If you can't accept me into your home, that's on you not me"?

The question I see many people stumbling on is, "Does this God fit with what I want God to be?" Hey, I'll be the first to say No. God does not fit with what I would want him to be. I'd rather he do this differently, and that, and that. The question that can help overcome these confusions is the more important one: "Regardless of whether he's the kind of god I would conjure, regardless of whether I like him or not, is he real? Is he God? Is he who he says he is?" If you can find the answer to that (and please, use all the free thinking and questioning and doubting you can muster), you can find peace with the other questions.

[Cuckoo]

...other then the one they were blindly taught to follow from a young age.

I've seen several things said in this thread and the other one that are quite similar to this, and I just want to point something out. I have never in my life known a single person who blindly followed a religious belief. This is not to say that it doesn't happen. Of course it does. But to state this likes it's commonplace seems quite a narrow view in my opinion. Every person of faith that I've ever known has contemplated deeply over many years, questioned every aspect of the Lord, and arrived at their own conclusions based upon their own logical analysis, many struggling with the questions for years and through very painful circumstances. It may be difficult for a person who doesn't have faith in God to understand, but I just think it should be pointed out that belief in God is rarely a blind pursuit in my experience.

[QuikSand]

Marc's ruminations on free will and foreknowledge (and reconciling the two) is interesting to me. It's a topic that I find endlessly interesting. Here is another coherent argument on the same topic that is not, at least by my rekoning, inherently religious.

Q: How can you reconcile a belief in "free will" with the notion that God, or anyone for that matter, can "know" things that are yet to come? If we have will to make decisions on our own, how can the future already be knowable?

A: We think of time as simply flowing, in order, one moment to the next. This moment happens now, another moment will happen later, and another moment will happen later still.

Perhaps time does not function this way. Perhaps all the infinite different moments in time all exist at once (this requires you to bend your idea of time a bit)-- they are not actually "happening" in any kind of sequence at all.

Imagine this very moment of your life. You saw what just happened a moment ago, and you see the things that happen right now as a conqesuence. At htis moment, you have memories of the things that happened just a moment ago, as well as all the other moments that happened "before" this one. But another explanation might be that all these moments just exist, all at the same time -- and that the presence of the cause-and-effect and memory connections just serve to give us a sense of order. In reality, we might not actually be living our lives from start to finish, and making choices as we go -- but rather the whole of our lives are already laid out and we simultaneously experience them without knowing it. At any given moment, from that point of view we know what we see as having has already happened, but we don't know what we see as yet to come... but in reality it's already "done."

Long-winded, and perhaps incoherent... but there's nothing in what we see or experience that refutes this concept. And if that were a fairer explanation of how time actually works... then there's nothing at all inconsistent with a higher power of some sort, who has better "access" to the whole array of these seemingly sequential moments in time, to have knowledge of the things that from our perspective are yet to come.

[Ben E Lou]

I've seen several things said in this thread and the other one that are quite similar to this, and I just want to point something out. I have never in my life known a single person who blindly followed a religious belief. This is not to say that it doesn't happen. Of course it does. But to state this likes it's commonplace seems quite a narrow view in my opinion. Every person of faith that I've ever known has contemplated deeply over many years, questioned every aspect of the Lord, and arrived at their own conclusions based upon their own logical analysis, many struggling with the questions for years and through very painful circumstances. It may be difficult for a person who doesn't have faith in God to understand, but I just think it should be pointed out that belief in God is rarely a blind pursuit in my experience.Good point. I, for one, although I grew up going to church virtually every Sunday, was pretty skeptical about it all as a youngster. As a late teen, I questioned, studied and checked into things, and as a result, became convinced that Jesus was real, and that his claims about himself as presented in scripture are true.

To comment on one other thing, revrew makes a great point about God sometimes taking a bit of time to flush tendencies out of His followers. A common (and understandable) mistake would be to judge Jesus by those who purport to follow him.

To Quik: that isn't incoherent. Our minds, which think in finite terms, naturally have a difficult (impossible?) time truly comprehending the infinite--such as the number of moments in time. I read or heard somewhere (not in any sort of religious text....for some reason I'm thinking that it was perhaps said in the novel Jurassic Park by the Ian Malcolm character) the philosophy is time is merely nature's (God's?) way of making sure everything doesn't happen to us at once. Interesting thought.

[druez]

I hate to bring this up again, but it seems time to repost this thought I had.

A quick thought on what defines a god and how they are created:

At least my take on how gods were created throughout history. In saying all this, I still do believe there is a constant or universal law that does not sit in judgement.

The gods are not so different then us mortals, they love, they fight, they envy, they destroy. Gods are made and Gods are destroyed. Though they may live forever and by our standards, I suppose that makes them gods? But, lets imagine a second that they can die, does this mean they were never gods? If their existence is simply removed by a more powerful being, or perhaps a constant that makes everything equal in the end. This must mean that in the end everyone "mortal and immortal" is really equal. Which leads back to the constant.

Hmm, maybe gods are ideas simply created out of mortal thought. The more you talk about the thought, the more it becomes part of you. So more people around you start to feel it and it becomes more real to them. All those thoughts woven together of like-minded individuals could make the being or entity seem real in a persons mind. The more you talk about the thought, idea etc. the more it becomes part of you. So more people around you start to feel it and it becomes more real to them. Can you see how this pattern could convince you that is indeed real and not something you created in your own mind and in actuality really control.

It still goes back to where you are raised and how you are brought up. In the middle east, you have their beliefs. In asia you have their beliefs. In Europe you have their beliefs. Granted religions do cross those boundries, but many times it is spread through war and hatred. The spanish conquiestors and their spread of christianity through the new world. The crusades to retake the holy lands.

I'll site my area in Houston Texas for example. I live in an upper middle class neighborhood. My neighbors for the most part are quite religious. They don't really like to associate with me and my family.

I heard the lady next door say to my wife, well I don't know how I could be the mother I am without god. This is the same lady who smacks her kids and they run around like heathens hitting other kids, throwing temper tantrums and at the same time building a ladder to go see Jesus.

Now my wife and I are raising our daughter of a little over 2 years of age, without hitting as a form of disiplin, we let her watch christian video's, we talk to her about god, buddha, mother nature and a variety of things we have learned about and believe i.e. karma, balanced spirituality. We explain to her our belief about the circle of life and the constant and try the best we can. We will take her to a variety of churches when she gets older and let her make her own descisions. I was raised catholic and the last day I went to church was in 8th grade at my confirmation.

My daughter may turn out to be devout christian, but it will be bacause she looked at everything we could possibly show her and allowed her to make her own desicsions not something we forced her into.

[druez]

I've seen several things said in this thread and the other one that are quite similar to this, and I just want to point something out. I have never in my life known a single person who blindly followed a religious belief. This is not to say that it doesn't happen. Of course it does. But to state this likes it's commonplace seems quite a narrow view in my opinion. Every person of faith that I've ever known has contemplated deeply over many years, questioned every aspect of the Lord, and arrived at their own conclusions based upon their own logical analysis, many struggling with the questions for years and through very painful circumstances. It may be difficult for a person who doesn't have faith in God to understand, but I just think it should be pointed out that belief in God is rarely a blind pursuit in my experience.

The message above I addressed some of these issues, but many children are raised in all area of the worlds to blindly follow a faith. Look at the muslims if you don't want me to single out christianity. Many children are not presented with options but are simply told what to believe by their parents church and beliefs.

[Drake]

Marc's ruminations on free will and foreknowledge (and reconciling the two) is interesting to me. It's a topic that I find endlessly interesting. Here is another coherent argument on the same topic that is not, at least by my rekoning, inherently religious.

Q: How can you reconcile a belief in "free will" with the notion that God, or anyone for that matter, can "know" things that are yet to come? If we have will to make decisions on our own, how can the future already be knowable?

A: We think of time as simply flowing, in order, one moment to the next. This moment happens now, another moment will happen later, and another moment will happen later still.

Perhaps time does not function this way. Perhaps all the infinite different moments in time all exist at once (this requires you to bend your idea of time a bit)-- they are not actually "happening" in any kind of sequence at all.

Imagine this very moment of your life. You saw what just happened a moment ago, and you see the things that happen right now as a conqesuence. At htis moment, you have memories of the things that happened just a moment ago, as well as all the other moments that happened "before" this one. But another explanation might be that all these moments just exist, all at the same time -- and that the presence of the cause-and-effect and memory connections just serve to give us a sense of order. In reality, we might not actually be living our lives from start to finish, and making choices as we go -- but rather the whole of our lives are already laid out and we simultaneously experience them without knowing it. At any given moment, from that point of view we know what we see as having has already happened, but we don't know what we see as yet to come... but in reality it's already "done."

Long-winded, and perhaps incoherent... but there's nothing in what we see or experience that refutes this concept. And if that were a fairer explanation of how time actually works... then there's nothing at all inconsistent with a higher power of some sort, who has better "access" to the whole array of these seemingly sequential moments in time, to have knowledge of the things that from our perspective are yet to come.


This explanation actually complies with what we're learning about the physics of the universe on the quantum level. It helps if you buy into String Theory, though. :)

[SplitPersonality1]

God is a very good multitasker (unlike windows).

It's quotes like the one aboove in the midst of a serious theological discussion that make me really appreciate this board. :)

Great discussion guys. Hopefully I will have something more substantive to add when I get home this evening.

[Cuckoo]

The message above I addressed some of these issues, but many children are raised in all area of the worlds to blindly follow a faith. Look at the muslims if you don't want me to single out christianity. Many children are not presented with options but are simply told what to believe by their parents church and beliefs.

You seem to be confusing the concept of exposing a child to a particular belief and indoctrinating them with nothing else. I don't know what may or may not occur in the Muslim faith. I only pointed out that in my experience, I have never known anyone who blindly followed what their parents happened to believe. In fact, again from my experience, it's typically quite the opposite, and I think that should be pointed out because many seem to believe as you do and it's erroneous in my opinion.

[revrew]

This explanation actually complies with what we're learning about the physics of the universe on the quantum level. It helps if you buy into String Theory, though. :)

Not 15 minutes ago I was reading about this very thing. I was honestly going to answer with the same thoughts. (Though I'm unsure of what String Theory is...I was reading more about the Ithacan conclusions...)

The idea of free will and foreknowledge are NOT incompatible. If God exists outside of time, he can know at all times what all people have, are, or will choose, because time is irrelevant.

[revrew]

I hate to bring this up again, but it seems time to repost this thought I had.

A quick thought on what defines a god and how they are created: etc.


I've got no problem accepting your theories on how differernt cultures have created their gods. Makes reasonable sense.

But it does leave open the "what if" questions. For example...What if there really was a God who was tired of people inventing all the false gods? What if out of benevolence he knew their manufactured gods would do them more harm (see child sacrifice, etc.) that knowing Himself? How would the one true God make himself known? What would he have to do to prove He was the one true God?

Would plagues and thunders and splitting the Red Sea do the trick? Would showing mastery over nations and governments be enough? Would proven foreknowledge of the future be convincing? And if He decided to manifest Himself as a man, would that be helpful? What miracles, healings, or wisdom would convince a person that this man-god was really the God? How about dying, and then coming back to life? What would it take? Amid all the other manmade gods, how could God prove He was who He was?

This is the premise of the Bible. God is...God made every effort to demonstrate He is...now, He'd like you to know. What will it take?

Perhaps it will take time. Perhaps it will take a bunch of guys on a computer message board. Or perhaps it will take someone close to you demonstrating for real the transforming power of God's love.

Since I, for one, believe in the sovereignty of God, I'm willing to let God take as much time with you as you need. I'm not going to shove threats of hell or insults to your intelligence down your throat. If you must question and doubt, then do so. Do so hard. Don't stop. The only real enemy to faith is apathy, not doubt. Bang the doors of heaven until you get your answers. Ask, seek, knock. The rewards are too rich not to.

[druez]

If god wanted everyone to know. I think a simple hello would suffice.

I don't think he needed to split the red sea. Or take all the first born. I don't think he needed to smite saddam and gamora.

I think a simple hello tommorrow. A speach of sorts. Hi I am god. Yes I'm here and I watch over you. Now will you jackasses start acting like you are supposed to.

All that would work.

But instead, he speaks to one person every 2000 years and we have to accept that this person is speaking the truth and it isn't some kind of conspircy or made up story. Or it isn't someone who had a bad acid trip. Or it isn't a way for a repressed people to feel good about themselves again.

What proof would it take?

Or getting the SI Games guys to make an American Football game :) that might work.

Just something I think everyone can relate to, A good old fashioned Hello How are you doing.....

Whats the first thing you do when you meet someone or want someone to know you.... Introduce yourself!

[GrantDawg]

The fundamental flaw that's creating a stumbling block, here, is the perception of the Bible as a "religious rule book." Anyone and everyone, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise, who has perceived the Scriptures this way intevitably gets confused.

In nearly every OTHER religion, the object of divine revelation (i.e. their "holy" writings) is a plan or guidebook on appeasing the divine power. "How to live for Allah" or "How to appease Asherah" or "How to make it into Nirvana" etc.

The Bible is unique in this respect. It is NOT a "how to make God happy and get into heaven and live by the rules" book. It is the LONG story of how GOD, and not humanity, can appease and please the one, holy, perfect, just Creator. The whole Old Testament points out how no matter how few or how many rules God gave for loving, pure community, people screwed it up. In fact, all humanity has ever done is kill, rape, maim, and torture one another and the rest of creation. So, just as any good and just god would, God said, "To hell with it."

And yet, something restrained him. That's the ol' John 3:16 thing. God loved us to much to send all of selfish, stinking humanity to hell. So he said, "Look, what if I take the beating you deserve? What if I go to hell for you? Would you trust me then? Would you let me live your life for you, before you screw up everything?" That's where Jesus came in. Now all He asks is that we trust Him and let Him live through us. The end result? He's making a place called Heaven. Those that live with him now get to live with him forever.

That's the whole point. It's not about rules and how to "be good." It's not even about "how to make God happy enough to get into heaven." The whole point is: we can't; but God alive inside of us can; so let him. Make sense?

I don't always agree, theologically, with everything you say, Rev, but that was a great summary.

[druez]

You seem to be confusing the concept of exposing a child to a particular belief and indoctrinating them with nothing else. I don't know what may or may not occur in the Muslim faith. I only pointed out that in my experience, I have never known anyone who blindly followed what their parents happened to believe. In fact, again from my experience, it's typically quite the opposite, and I think that should be pointed out because many seem to believe as you do and it's erroneous in my opinion.

Maybe we aren't quite understanding each other. As a child, I know I was only exposed to Christianity.

I know a good many people who were only exposed to christianity as a child. Let me take that a step further, they were only exposed to being Catholic, or Methodist etc....

Of course as adults or mid to late teens we can rebal and choose to look at other things, but some do and some don't. Some stay with what is comfortable, some rebal. Some really go on the quest for answers. But, come live in a southern baptist neighborhood with fire and brimestone as your answer if you think of something else. Then come tell me that isn't brainwashing......

[Easy Mac]

Marc's ruminations on free will and foreknowledge (and reconciling the two) is interesting to me. It's a topic that I find endlessly interesting. Here is another coherent argument on the same topic that is not, at least by my rekoning, inherently religious.

Q: How can you reconcile a belief in "free will" with the notion that God, or anyone for that matter, can "know" things that are yet to come? If we have will to make decisions on our own, how can the future already be knowable?

Your answer is very well thought out and doesn't really need to be repeated, and I've read a lot of scientific journals dealing with the same ideas it laid out (funny, since I've hated every science class I've ever had but find it fascinating).

Anyway, I think the common "answer" to reconciling free will and God's omniscience (word?) is that the whole idea of God being infinite makes the point moot. To be infinite correlates to existing without time. For God, time doesn't exist. It's not just irrelevant, it literally does not exist. Everything has happened that ever will happen, while at the same time it hasn't. Imagine sitting outside of time, would you know if anything actually occured when time did exist, because it wouldn't even be an instant to you. Now I haven't even tried to think about how he would insert Jesus at just the right time (nor do I necesarilly agree with this "answer") or how he would interact with time if indeed he has, but thats the answer I've most often seen.

Otherwise, the other answer I've often heard is that God has a plan, but its not a point to point thing. Not everything every person does is planned, but the whole leads to the end. So people are free to do what they want, but in the end everything will end in the exact same way.

[Cuckoo]

Maybe we aren't quite understanding each other. As a child, I know I was only exposed to Christianity.

I know a good many people who were only exposed to christianity as a child. Let me take that a step further, they were only exposed to being Catholic, or Methodist etc....

Of course as adults or mid to late teens we can rebal and choose to look at other things, but some do and some don't. Some stay with what is comfortable, some rebal. Some really go on the quest for answers. But, come live in a southern baptist neighborhood with fire and brimestone as your answer if you think of something else. Then come tell me that isn't brainwashing......

I think we are understanding each other. I'm just saying that what you're asserting doesn't happen as much as you think, at least through my experience it is very, very rare. Like I said, I've never seen it. Every person I know who has a deep faith in Christianity has in fact questioned it, many times with some, explored other faiths, and educated themselves quite thoroughly before making up their minds. That kind of pursuit, in my experience, is common in devout Christians because coming to faith in Jesus is not something done lightly.

I have, in fact, lived in a southern Baptist neighborhood, and I can most decidedly say that it is not brainwashing. Again, this is the case at least from my experience and everyone I've ever met contrary to what television and the movies may have you believe. It is inevitable, of course, that children will grow up in Christian households and be exposed to a number of beliefs that their parents hold dear. This does not mean, though, that they will "blindly" accept those views and hold them as their own. In fact, my point was that it is more often the case that the opposite occurs, rebelling as you call it, especially in households where religious beliefs are deep and strict.

My only point in all of this was to answer a comment you made that I have seen others make on this board and elsewhere that it is common for people to be brainwashed or indoctrinated or flooded so completely with a particular religious belief that they simply and "blindly" follow that doctrine. As I said before, I have never seen that to occur, although I'm sure that it has. The frequency of it, however, is in my mind so slight as to warrant a comment to those who repeatedly assert its prevalence.

[Bubba Wheels]

I think we are understanding each other. I'm just saying that what you're asserting doesn't happen as much as you think, at least through my experience it is very, very rare. Like I said, I've never seen it. Every person I know who has a deep faith in Christianity has in fact questioned it, many times with some, explored other faiths, and educated themselves quite thoroughly before making up their minds. That kind of pursuit, in my experience, is common in devout Christians because coming to faith in Jesus is not something done lightly.

I have, in fact, lived in a southern Baptist neighborhood, and I can most decidedly say that it is not brainwashing. Again, this is the case at least from my experience and everyone I've ever met contrary to what television and the movies may have you believe. It is inevitable, of course, that children will grow up in Christian households and be exposed to a number of beliefs that their parents hold dear. This does not mean, though, that they will "blindly" accept those views and hold them as their own. In fact, my point was that it is more often the case that the opposite occurs, rebelling as you call it, especially in households where religious beliefs are deep and strict.

My only point in all of this was to answer a comment you made that I have seen others make on this board and elsewhere that it is common for people to be brainwashed or indoctrinated or flooded so completely with a particular religious belief that they simply and "blindly" follow that doctrine. As I said before, I have never seen that to occur, although I'm sure that it has. The frequency of it, however, is in my mind so slight as to warrant a comment to those who repeatedly assert its prevalence.

God uses irony, since it was HE who created it. And the greatest example of irony are all the many nonbelievers in God who think that becoming a Christian is submitting to some kind of brainwashing. In fact, all evidence I ever see shows the exact opposite...that those who wish to NOT believe need to by necessity allow themselves to be 'brainwashed' and 'indocrinated' into unrealistic views of an UnGodly nature (evolution, for instance). The fastest 'kneejerk reaction' you will ever get to anything is to bring up God in a situation is which some atheist feels that mentioning same in 'innappropriate" and is 'offensive' to those who do not believe (taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, for expample because it 'offends' the minority of folks who wish to not believe in ANY higher power). That kind of conditioning is real 'brainwashing!"

[Easy Mac]

Actually most atheists don't care about whats in the pledge. And Christians never find anything offensive and then blame it on the "liberal atheists"?

Now back to real discussion instead of name calling. I don't think anyone is brainwashed, you believe whatever is most natural and comfortable for you. If you're comfortable with believing that there is a higher power and feel strongly that there is, then to you there is no other answer. If you're comfortable in believing there is no higher power and feel strongly that you don't, then to you there is no other answer. Then for some, we look for an answer however we can, that makes us neither weak nor brainwashed, naive nor more intelligent... it makes us who we are.

And re-read Genesis, it pretty clearly spells out evolution.

[Subby]

That kind of conditioning is real 'brainwashing!"You do a really good job of destroying any good work revrew or ngf22 attempted to do in this thread. It is attitudes like yours which completely turn people off to Christianity...

Ok, I can't speak for anyone but myself...so I will point off that it turns ME off.

[Sharpieman]

that those who wish to NOT believe need to by necessity allow themselves to be 'brainwashed' and 'indocrinated' into unrealistic views of an UnGodly nature (evolution, for instance).
LOL!!!
wow, Evolution has been proved in many experiements. Evolution is a fact of life. The reason people don't believe in evolution is because they think that it disproves God's exstience. Its that kind of backward thinking that turns people off to religion in the first place.

[Cuckoo]

Don't back me up Bubba. :)

I agree with Easy Mac's middle paragraph there. There is very little brainwashing going on for either side of a religious debate. Some children are raised in religious households while others are raised in non-religious ones. Eventually, we all must decide what we believe, and although that may be influenced, very highly at times, by what our parents may or may not have believed, in the end it all comes down to the answers we find within ourselves. I wouldn't have much respect for anyone who did otherwise.

[Ajaxab]

I have to second Subby on Bubba Wheels. Even if people would concede that Bubba's perspective is the truth, his message could be communicated in a less condescending, more humble and loving manner. Revrew and ng have communicated in exactly that manner. They have demonstrated that the truth and arrogance do not necessarily have to go together. I would encourage Bubba to follow their sound apologetic style.

[druez]

Don't back me up Bubba. :)

I agree with Easy Mac's middle paragraph there. There is very little brainwashing going on for either side of a religious debate. Some children are raised in religious households while others are raised in non-religious ones. Eventually, we all must decide what we believe, and although that may be influenced, very highly at times, by what our parents may or may not have believed, in the end it all comes down to the answers we find within ourselves. I wouldn't have much respect for anyone who did otherwise.

Well said

[QuikSand]

This explanation actually complies with what we're learning about the physics of the universe on the quantum level. It helps if you buy into String Theory, though.

Yup. I prefer the purely theoretical argument, though, without mention of the fact that there might actually be some evidence that this is how things actually work.