OT: Why Terrorism is not a valid diplomatic tool

[Dutch]

Today, a 16 year old kid was stopped at a checkpoint, loaded to the hilt with TNT, he was stripped and asked to detonate his own bombs to see what it looks like without him strapped to the insides of the bombs. The parents say the kid has the mind of a 12 year old....great, what a weird way for Palestinians to prove they are responsable enough to own their own country.

But, let me quickly say that I am a firm proponent of the Israeli's doing one of two things. Either they annex all disputed lands into the state of Israel and give all these Palestinians voting rights (Taxation without Representation) or give the land up for the Palestinians to do with what they want. End of Story, the settlements are illegal based on multiple UN Resolutions as they stand now and the Isreali's have a tough decision to make, but they still have the responsability of making the decision, not Palestine. They are the occupying power and have the responsability to do something.

Having said that...

Are the Palestinians the largest collection of ignorant SOB's on the planet? Ever? In history? Give me a break with the "Palestinian National Awareness Program" of sending drugged up kids loaded with bombs onto public buses to kill women and children. This is the most horribly run campaign for peace I have ever seen. They need to step back, take a deep breath (for about 5 years) and let the international community use their weight. (Might even bring some much needed credibility back to the UN if they ever want to weigh in on the subject again.)

The Palestinians don't like Israeli rule. We got the picture, now stop with the pycho terrorism act. Nobody will let you run your own country if you handle all of your grievances by strapping bombs to your kids!

Oh well, here's hoping that 16 year old kid comes to his senses and thinks to himself, "Wow, that was pretty stupid."

[BishopMVP]

I've heard rumors Israel might turn over the Gaza Strip to Egyptian control sometime in the near future. With that region though it's hard to tell.

[Axxon]

Today, a 16 year old kid was stopped at a checkpoint, loaded to the hilt with TNT, he was stripped and asked to detonate his own bombs to see what it looks like without him strapped to the insides of the bombs. The parents say the kid has the mind of a 12 year old....great, what a weird way for Palestinians to prove they are responsable enough to own their own country.

But, let me quickly say that I am a firm proponent of the Israeli's doing one of two things. Either they annex all disputed lands into the state of Israel and give all these Palestinians voting rights (Taxation without Representation) or give the land up for the Palestinians to do with what they want. End of Story, the settlements are illegal based on multiple UN Resolutions as they stand now and the Isreali's have a tough decision to make, but they still have the responsability of making the decision, not Palestine. They are the occupying power and have the responsability to do something.

Having said that...

Are the Palestinians the largest collection of ignorant SOB's on the planet? Ever? In history? Give me a break with the "Palestinian National Awareness Program" of sending drugged up kids loaded with bombs onto public buses to kill women and children. This is the most horribly run campaign for peace I have ever seen. They need to step back, take a deep breath (for about 5 years) and let the international community use their weight. (Might even bring some much needed credibility back to the UN if they ever want to weigh in on the subject again.)

The Palestinians don't like Israeli rule. We got the picture, now stop with the pycho terrorism act. Nobody will let you run your own country if you handle all of your grievances by strapping bombs to your kids!

Oh well, here's hoping that 16 year old kid comes to his senses and thinks to himself, "Wow, that was pretty stupid."

I agree with your take on Israels responsibility.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe life in and of itself is worth living no matter what? Is it possible that one's living condition could be so bad that the very thought of continuing to live becomes less desirable than dying?

Look at the following link. It's about this subject and it parallels the Palestinian situation. This man is one of the most dangerous men alive. He cannot play well with others. The system HAS to do something with him but in doing this they have rid him of his will to live. I think there are parallels. I don't blame the Israelis for protecting themselves but really, what do the palestinians have to live for?

It's not like this kid could be playing his playstation 2 and going to the mall. What hope or reason to live does he have? I don't have any answers but the question just isn't that simple as they're stupid.

hxxp://www.ccadp.org/robertcomer-news.htm

Cornered animals will fight back, no matter what the odds even if it's their fault they're in the corner in the first place.

[Axxon]

dola, what's ironic is when the death row inmate expresses the desire to die they won't kill him. I am against capital punishment but have no problem with it if the convict wishes it.

[edit to add this quote. no reason except it is poignant writing]
"I remember feeling my mind shut down, one piece at a time. I used to
mess with the rats. I never could figure how they got in. At night, they
would crawl on you. At first, it bugged you. But just like love, or the girl
you left behind, you turned them all off. You live like a robot. . . . I used to
talk to the rats at first. After four months, they talked back. You think
you're going crazy, so you don't talk with the rats no more. . . . After 6 or 7
months, all your mind could say was, 'Fuck you.'"

[WussGawd]

Today, a 16 year old kid was stopped at a checkpoint, loaded to the hilt with TNT, he was stripped and asked to detonate his own bombs to see what it looks like without him strapped to the insides of the bombs. The parents say the kid has the mind of a 12 year old....great, what a weird way for Palestinians to prove they are responsable enough to own their own country.



OK, Dutch. For once, I find myself in agreement with a lot of what you say here...however, the Palestinian people live in conditions that most Americans can't probably even fathom. From the pictures and stories I've seen, probably only the conditions in some of the Polish ghettos in WW2 are the same.

I would never condone the murder of innocent civilians, and don't, but consider the following:

* Many credible news sources state that the Israelis have killed far more Palestinians during the retaliatory strikes who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time than the Palestinians have killed in suicide bombings. (Not that either one is a good thing, and this isn't really about body counts).

* The Israelis (as you state) are already occupying lands in defiance of UN resolutions, and have made permanent settlements there.

* The stated goal of at least part of the membership of the ruling coalition in Sharon's government is to deny the right of any Palestinian state to exist and to refuse to make the kind of concessions needed to really establish peace in the area (return to Pre-'67 borders).

* The Sharon government is building a wall (using the quaint Orwellian euphemism "security barrier") that literally runs right through a number of Palestinian settlements and establishes a demarcation line well outside of Pre '67 borders. Think Berlin Wall circa early 1960's when it was being built to imagine how this probably feels to most Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Now, again, I'm not condoning the murder of innocents...but what exactly should the Palestinians do here? The only really new thing that's happening here is the security barrier. Ever since the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, the Israelis have been eagerly settling the West Bank in defiance of the UN. They've been eagerly submarining the Clinton era peace plan (though Arafat has a big role in this as well).

I'm not sure the Palestinians get anywhere by singing Kumbaya and offering to engage the Israelis in a series of group hugs...and the Palestinians don't have the resources to fight a straight up campaign against an enemy armed with Apache helicopters, Abrams tanks, and F-15 Eagles...so what do they do? Wait for the International Community? The same international community that has failed to do anything constructive for them since 1948? Yeah, I'm sure they've got a whole lot of faith left in the international community at this point. About as much as Bush had in the run up to the Iraq war. :(

The main problem with the war on terror as conducted by Israel in the occupied territories is one that we are wrestling with in Afghanistan and Iraq. We're trying to address inflamed political issues with special forces units, infantry, gunships and tanks when we've been propping up one corrupt, tyrannical regime in the Middle East after the other for a couple of generations now (and I'm not talking about our 1980's era support of Saddam here, either).

If there's ever going to be peace in the Middle East, it's going to happen because both the Israelis and Palestinians understand that nothing further is to be gained by violence. Neither side seems to understand that yet, and I'm afraid there will be more suicide bombings, and more Israeli attempts to use gunships and tanks to kill members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc that kill a lot of innocents as well.

[Axxon]

OK, Dutch. For once, I find myself in agreement with a lot of what you say here...however, the Palestinian people live in conditions that most Americans can't probably even fathom. From the pictures and stories I've seen, probably only the conditions in some of the Polish ghettos in WW2 are the same.


I'll bet Robert Comer would rather be in Palestine. ;)

Seriously though, great post.

[WussGawd]

I'll bet Robert Comer would rather be in Palestine. ;)

Seriously though, great post.

Granted, I was exaggerating somewhat to make a point, but if you look at this wall running through the West bank, and then go back and look at pictures of the walls separating the Warsaw ghetto in WW2, the resemblance is a lot eerier than I would have ever imagined.

[Flasch186]

One thing thats been failed to mention is that on the road to their own state their leadership gourps have been wrought with corruption. If that gets straightened out I think more people will see their cause as a legitimate struggle for independence.

Im Jewish and I look forward to a day when the Palestinians ahve their own state and the israelis will leave them alone and quit encroaching in on territory being negotiated.

What scares me is that once they get their own state will the israelis wait for one attack and then attack a "legitamate" country...cuz then it would be all out war and that would be bad.

[Dutch]

I'm not sure the Palestinians get anywhere by singing Kumbaya and offering to engage the Israelis in a series of group hugs...and the Palestinians don't have the resources to fight a straight up campaign against an enemy armed with Apache helicopters, Abrams tanks, and F-15 Eagles...so what do they do? Wait for the International Community? The same international community that has failed to do anything constructive for them since 1948? Yeah, I'm sure they've got a whole lot of faith left in the international community at this point. About as much as Bush had in the run up to the Iraq war.

I think that their "Awareness Program" was very successful. We all get the point now. The Palestinians are serious about getting out from under the boot of Israel. Now, if they are serious about the USA or the UN helping them, they have to back off. They have to understand that each bombing after the US sticks it's neck out only distances them from the US as peace broker. The same embarrassing crap happened with the Oslo Accords and Clinton.

Everybody knows that the Israeli's are jerks to the Palestinians. So why keep up the bombing when "Road Maps" are laid down? They can't back off for 3 weeks. They have to back off for the duration of the road map. Which road map? Just pick one. They have agreed, in principle and good faith, to the latest one with Bush and the Oslo treaty.

At some point, patience will have to reacquire itself with the process.

[fhasumi]

What is it that the Israelis have over the U.S. that every time they do something shitty, we come out and condem the Palestinians?

Maybe it's time to cut off our support for Israel.

[WussGawd]

I think that their "Awareness Program" was very successful. We all get the point now. The Palestinians are serious about getting out from under the boot of Israel. Now, if they are serious about the USA or the UN helping them, they have to back off. They have to understand that each bombing after the US sticks it's neck out only distances them from the US as peace broker. The same embarrassing crap happened with the Oslo Accords and Clinton.

Everybody knows that the Israeli's are jerks to the Palestinians. So why keep up the bombing when "Road Maps" are laid down? They can't back off for 3 weeks. They have to back off for the duration of the road map. Which road map? Just pick one. They have agreed, in principle and good faith, to the latest one with Bush and the Oslo treaty.

At some point, patience will have to reacquire itself with the process.

Well, as someone else pointed out, there isn't exactly a good government there. Arafat needs to go. I think most reasonable people can agree with that.

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but I'm not sure that a government led by Ariel Sharon is ever going to be trusted enough by any Palestinian government enough to really make a meaningful first step. IMO, both Sharon and Arafat need to go...then it might have a chance of going somewhere. Until then, I'm afraid it's something of a waste of time and energy.

[damnMikeBrown]

How much of this problem could have been avoided if just one of the surrounding countries. . oil bearing countries with some of the highest GDP per capita in the world, would have opened their borders to their fellow Muslim refugees.

None of them did.

They did, however, offer up vast sums of money to support terrorist organizations in Gaza & the West Bank. The Palestinians have been used by militant Muslims, and oppresed by the forces of the West, be it directly, or by proxy.

That being said, were I a Palestinian, you're damn skippy I'd be willing to pick up arms. While self-demolition is outside of my rational thought, who knows what boundries I'd have were I raised in such an oppresive manner. Movement restrictions, living restricions, work restrictions, no voting, no liberty, no freedom, and no recourse to change things. What, exactly, do they have to loose?

[Flasch186]

Some would argue that all of this is a long term attempt at destroying israel and "driving them into the sea." which is in the Hammas constitution. That is one reason why the israelis do not want to negotiate with them....its hard to negotiate peace with someone who was created to cause your destruction.

Yes Sharon must go. The settlements must stop. BUT the bombings must stop. I think that the fence, placed specifically by the UN on borders both sides have respected 5 years ago, is the only way to stop this. Why do the palestinians not want that? Cuz the jobs are in israeli territory. Look, the PLO has done Nothing, NOTHING! to raise the living standards for their people, so when you say they have nothing to live for, I look at Arafat's wife living in PAris going on 20,000$ shopping sprees saying ti is how she deserves to live. That is a travesty. Israelis want peace, there is overwheming evidence that they are willing to give up land, and settlements to end the intifada but without help from a mediating source, honest help (not syria or saudi arabia but maybe Egypt) they will not find peace because they do not trust eachother and in my opinion the Palestinan military groups would want to continue their attacks on israel, at least throughout this generation, as the kids have been raised to hate israel and in turn the jews.

I think it will get much worse before it gets any better.

[Blackadar]

I'm not even going to respond to most of this, because some of the opinions that are stated here (and represented as facts) are just absurd.

However, in Israel's defense, what would you want your country to do if you lived in a state that's smaller than Lake Michigan and in 46 of the last 48 months your country had deaths due to suicide bombers?. Hell, if we had a Oklahoma-city type event in 46 of the last 48 months (given population sizes, that's skewed against Israel for the comparison), we'd be screaming to nuke someone.

Fuck the Palestinians and their support of the suicide bombers. When they cheered when the WTC was hit, they lost all respect forever from me. I wish Israel would build the wall and shut them all out.

[Easy Mac]

What is it that the Israelis have over the U.S. that every time they do something shitty, we come out and condem the Palestinians?
.
Some carpernter who liked to fish.

[yabanci]

Some carpernter who liked to fish.

and AIPAC.

[Dutch]

I wish Israel would build the wall and shut them all out.

That is one of their options along with the other option of annexing the land. It's got to go one way or the other eventually, the map makers running out of "diagonal shade" ink for the maps that say disputed areas.

[SackAttack]

What is it that the Israelis have over the U.S. that every time they do something shitty, we come out and condem the Palestinians?

Maybe it's time to cut off our support for Israel.

And why is it that everytime the Palestinians do something shitty, the rest of the world community immediately blames it on Israel?

I'm glad we support Israel, because sure as fuck nobody else will.

[Flasch186]

My only problem is IF they get their own land will they stop suicide bombings? Me think not. Then the israelis will legitimately destroy them and then Syria and Jordan and egypt get involved, then we do......things could get ugly very fast. Especially with the hamas crap. I have no sympathy for those groups but the political leadership, ie. PLO, is awfully tainted and must be changed. along with Sharon.

[Dutch]

So if the cycle of violence continues, what would you propose Israel do? Give the land up or annex it and make the 3 million Palestinians voters in the Jewish state?

[Flasch186]

i say give them their own lands, then if they use the land as a haven for terrorism, Israel will have more moral backbone for stopping it militarily. Right now, its punishing "second class citizens" which isnt right. Therefore the palestinians can do abhorrible things, like sending in kids as suicide bombers and garner sympathy fromt he world. If they had their own state the world wouldnt sympathize with them when they do something like that.

[CraigSca]

My question is - what happens if/when the Palestinians get their own land? Does anyone "really" think the violence and the hatred will somehow come to and end?!

The nations all around Israel want the country wiped off the face of the earth and have tried multiple times since Israel's creation.

From a 30,000 foot level, what does having a Palestinian state really buy you?

[Dutch]

But see, there is the problem. If Israel gives the Palestinians their own land and then declares war on them. Do they re-occupy the land? That would be a mess.

On the other hand, they could annex the entire region, but that has two problems, first, the Arabs will probably get angry about it, and second, it dilutes the Jewish state from 80% down to just over 55% Jewish. They might even get ousted from office by a Palestinian! But that's democracy, I guess. Still, what a mess that would be.

I honestly don't know which way is better, but I like to see progress. The status quo in this case sure doesn't seem to be the right answer, but there are no guarentee's that either of the other two dramatic choices will be the right answer either.

It's just a big mess, I say the give the person with the right solution 25 million dollars. (And any sort of final solution is out of the question, sorry.)

[Dutch]

My question is - what happens if/when the Palestinians get their own land? Does anyone "really" think the violence and the hatred will somehow come to and end?!

The nations all around Israel want the country wiped off the face of the earth and have tried multiple times since Israel's creation.

From a 30,000 foot level, what does having a Palestinian state really buy you?

That's a great question Craig. I really don't think anything changes with the creation of the State of Palestine. But the question now is who should decide that? Who is the greater judge of these people than these people?

[Glengoyne]

I think Sharon is in power because of frustration amongst Israelis regarding concessions to Palestine in attempts to buy peace. Sharon's election was, in my mind, a huge defeat to the prospect of peace in the region. That said I think he has played ball with the peace plan much more than I would have suspected. He really has stuck his neck out politically to do some of the things he has done. A lot of people are right, in that Israel really does do a lot to stand in the way of peace. I have some trouble blaming them for a lot of their actions though. If for example Mexican citizens were sneaking across the border in California to bomb Americans, The United States would Freaking go ballistic on Mexico. Well first we would ask the Mexican government to squash it like a bug. If that failed though, there would be hell to pay. I really can't blame the Israelis for carrying the fight to the terrorists. Even the targetted assassinations. We would do the same. I can expect no less from any other nation.

I think the burden is on the Palestinians to earn their sovereignty. They need to arrest and punish the leaders and membership of Hamas. If they can't do that, they have no credibility internationally. The first prime minister to even take baby steps down that road ended up losing the stare down with Arafat. There are moderate factions in Palestine that might want to do what it takes to gain their independence, but they are not the ones in power.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

There are moderate factions in Palestine that might want to do what it takes to gain their independence, but they are not the ones in power.

And they get further from power every time Israel assassinates somebody or rolls a bunch of tanks in the West Bank...

[cartman]

And, who do we have to blame for the situation in the first place? Not the Arabs, not the Jews, but the British. That's right, our closest ally, the British. They are also the cause of a few of the other hotspots in the world, such as Kashmir and Iraq.

After WW2, the Brits needed to focus their efforts on rebuilding London and other industrial parts of the Empire. It was almost levelled by daily bombardment from the Germans during the war. Soon after the war, US help was greatly curtailed, due to the accusations that Britian was taking the help from the US and selling it off to other countries, rather than using it for internal use.

As a result of these budget crises, the UK decided to stop supporting many of it's colonies, and let them choose a path of independence. Sure Ghandi was instumental in freeing India from colonial rule, but if he was around 30 years before, he would have been ruthlessly crushed by the colonial troops. When the UK left the subcontintent, they split Kashmir into two regions, one Hindu and one Islamic. The two sides are fighting over the region to this day. In the past, any uprisings would have been ruthlessly suppressed by the British commander. It was with great heartache that Great Britian released into independance a territory that many Brits died to defend from the Japanese.

Same for Palestine and Iraq. If any tribal conflicts flared up, a regiment of British troops were sent in and shot first, asked questions later. The ruled the places with an iron fist. Once the the Jews decided to leave Europe and reclaim their ancestral lands in the Middle East, the British at the same time gave up their colonial claims on the land then known as Palestine. After a bitter, hard fought war, the nation of Isreal was created, and has been a point of contention in the region ever since. If the same Jewish exodus had occured 30 years before, once again the Colonial military would have sent the new refugees packing, or at least let them have a small piece of territory that the colonial troops protected.

So to me, the lesson is, that any region that is left to it's own devices, without any kind of powered structure, is a disaster waiting to happen. It's one thing to protest and fight for self-rule. It's another thing altogether to responsibly handle the freedoms given once self-rule is made available.