Professional Sports League Structure, English Soccer Rocks....

[druez]

I don't think there is a better setup around compared to the English Soccer System. A brief description and I may botch it as I am a dumb Yank and I don't have CM 4 in front of me. Going from memory here.

Anyway,

Premier League
1st Division
2nd Division
3rd Division
Conference

League Cup
FA Cup
Vans Trophy
FA Trophy

What makes this all so intriguing is the promotion system. Lets say you have a team in the conference division. If you win your division you move up to the 3rd division and the last place team in the 3rd division moves down.

In the 3rd division, I believe the 2 top teams move up to the 2nd divison and the 3rd 4th 5th and 6th place positions have a playoff and the winner moves up to the 2nd.

Repeat for the 2nd and 1st divisions.

Then you have the premiership the elite teams which usually also have the biggest stadiums and most money.

Now, There is also a tournament that every team in England can play in called the FA Cup. Small club teams can enter and play in qualifying matches. Every team has a shot to win the Cup. Now granted the smaller clubs usually get blown out, but the excitement is very similiar to the March maddness tournament here.

Now the Vans Trophy, I think is for only conference 3rd and 2nd division teams. Its a tournament for the lower tiered teams.

FA Trophy is a tournament just for the conference and club teams.

Anyway, I'm not sure how you would do this, but I think its possible. Lets say Microsoft or some uber rich company wanted to start a soccer club. They could create a team and get a stadium in a town. They would have to qualify for the conference division and its perfectly possible that given enough talent and money they could work their way up to the premiership.

Ok, now I bring this up because its the most engaging way to play CM in my opinion. I usually start in the conference division with Scarborough and try and work them up to the premiership. Its something you just have to get into to understand what I'm talking about.


Anyway, A sport in the US that would be perfect for this style is Hockey. Lets say you create a top division that would be about 10 to 15 teams. Your large market teams at first. You move 2 teams up and down.

Make 3 divisions, this would allow cities like Quebec, Winnipeg and other small markets to have a pro team again and maybe they could advance up the ladder.

Well just a suggestion....!

[fantastic flying froggies]

You're forgetting just one think in this equation. European systems like the one you describe lack one major thing for the US population : playoffs. Which means you lose lots of $$$ and that's a no-no in US sports...

[Desnudo]

You're forgetting just one think in this equation. European systems like the one you describe lack one major thing for the US population : playoffs. Which means you lose lots of $$$ and that's a no-no in US sports...

Actually there are playoffs for some of the promotion spots. Although at the top there are none. I think the national cups plus Champions and UEFA cups substitute very nicely for that. I would love to see teams like Cincinnati and Arizona relegated out of the NFL. They certainly haven't done anything to deserve sticking around. It makes scramble at the bottom of the ladder just as entertaining, if not more, than the fight at the top. Witness Leeds this season.

[sabotai]

I've always been a fan of the ladder style of structure. I also think that it could work really well for hockey.

As for no playoffs, just move the tournaments from occuring concurrently with the season to after the regular season and there you go.

[druez]

The championship game is also usually held at the end of season isn't it?

[fantastic flying froggies]

The championship game is also usually held at the end of season isn't it?
There is no championship game. The cup final does take place at the end of season.

[fantastic flying froggies]

dola - also no drafts in Europe, not really doable with such a league structure...
So it'a case of the rich getting richer, as they are the only ones who can buy players away from the teams that promote thru their youth system...

You only need to look at the big european clubs: Man Utd, Real Madrid, AC Milan, etc, they all buy their players all over the world...

I'm not knocking the system, it works relatively well in Europe. I'm just saying it's far from perfect...

[mckerney]

US fans loves drafts, and as baseball has shown most don't like the idea of buying players instead of trading.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Exactly.
Basically what we have in Europe is just like baseball, with its own ladder type. We've got the majors, AAA, AA, etc... Only difference is that teams can be demoted or promoted from level to another...

[Desnudo]

US fans loves drafts, and as baseball has shown most don't like the idea of buying players instead of trading.

Unless you're the Yankees.

[sabotai]

Since when did people pay attention to the NHL draft? If the NHL didn't have a draft, no one would miss it...

[mckerney]

Since when did people pay attention to the NHL draft? If the NHL didn't have a draft, no one would miss it...

It may work in the NHL, and maybe even baseball, but I could never see the NFL or NBA doing away with their draft system.

[mckerney]

Unless you're the Yankees.

Even the Yankees give up players or prospects. I don't think most fans would like it though if the Yankees had just paid the Rangers $40 million for ARod instead of giving up Soriano.

[Senator]

How does one get a conference club. There seems to be so many clubs, the lower ones don't appear to cost too much money, almost like a towns high school football team.

Let's say we pool our resources and start a small team in a small market somewhere in Europe. Maybe there is a website with rules about this.

[druez]

that is what I mean, the FA Cup, The Vans Trophy and the playoff finals are done at the end of the season right? In the millenium stadium?

[fantastic flying froggies]

How does one get a conference club. There seems to be so many clubs, the lower ones don't appear to cost too much money, almost like a towns high school football team.

Let's say we pool our resources and start a small team in a small market somewhere in Europe. Maybe there is a website with rules about this.
Unlike the major clubs, most small teams are just town clubs, ie public. Therefore not for sale...
Even though if you collected enough money, I'm sure you'd find someone willing to sell you something that doesn't belong to him... ;)

[fantastic flying froggies]

that is what I mean, the FA Cup, The Vans Trophy and the playoff finals are done at the end of the season right? In the millenium stadium?
I think so. I'm not sure though, we'd need confirmation from one of the brits...

[SirFozzie]

There's about 10-12 LEAGUES of soccer below the Conference in England.. all of em work the same way.. I happen to know that at one time (not sure if this is true anymore) 3 leagues fed teams into the conference.. but anywhere amateur/semi pro football is played, there's a ladder structure, the leagues it feeds from and into.

[SirFozzie]

I think so. I'm not sure though, we'd need confirmation from one of the brits...

Or a really dedicated english soccer fan.

Currently, the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff hosts the FA Cup, League Cup, Vans Trophy, and Playoff Promotion finals. This is a temporary measure while Wembley Stadium (the English National Stadium) is being rebuilt.

[sabotai]

It may work in the NHL, and maybe even baseball, but I could never see the NFL or NBA doing away with their draft system.

Well yeah, the NFL and NBA aren't even close to a ladder style structure, so just uprooting them would be disasterous. With the way things are, though, I think the NHL could move to a ladder structure without much initial chaos among the fans.

[druez]

I think the NHL would thrive on a system like that. In the US and Canada there are leagues setup that would mold right into this.

It would also allow the smaller towns to have hockey and still get a chance to play some big time games.

NFL and NBA we should leave alone.

Baseball is sort of like this now....

[tucker342]

That would be so awesome!:)

It would NEVER happen in the NFL or the NBA, but I think it could pretty easily be put into place in Baseball or Hockey

[moriarty]

Exactly.
Basically what we have in Europe is just like baseball, with its own ladder type. We've got the majors, AAA, AA, etc... Only difference is that teams can be demoted or promoted from level to another...

The big problem w/ baseball and I belive Hockey is that the teams actually own their affiliate systems. I.e. the Yankees have their future stars playing in AAA. If the Redsox were demoted and the Yankee's triple A club promoted, the Yankees would in effect be playing games against their own organization.

Football and basketball are free from this farm system relationship, and might be easier to convert to the 'ladder' format .... but that brings us back to the draft issue.

[sabotai]

The big problem w/ baseball and I belive Hockey is that the teams actually own their affiliate systems. I.e. the Yankees have their future stars playing in AAA. If the Redsox were demoted and the Yankee's triple A club promoted, the Yankees would in effect be playing games against their own organization.

I thought of that, but I don't know how the minor league works in hockey and baseball. Do the pro teams actually OWN the minor league clubs, or do they basically have contracts with them to have players they have the rights of to play there? If it's the former, then it could be a problem, if it's the later, then it'll be a small obsticle but nothing really major. Just basically "grandfather" the players and then proceed with the ladder structure. Players only play in th eminors for a few years before a team realizes they don't want him anymore, so it'll only take a few years to filter out the players and then go as normal.

[moriarty]

Every player is owned by the team - and it makes up part of their net worth (their assets). The AAA and other teams would have to buy the players (and there's no way they could afford the future stars), or purcahse them 'on loan' until their contracts expired. It would create a crazy market and wouldnt' stabilize until all of today's contracts expired (probably 4-5 years).

Still I'd love to see the teams that dump all their players in late summer, suddenly find themselves in the relegation zone. It would force teams to stay somewhat competitive.

[Sharpieman]

I think we should implement it for the NBA...We could just put all the Eastern Conference teams in a lower division :D

[GrantDawg]

I would love to see baseball in this system, but it will never happen.

[mckerney]

I would love to see baseball in this system, but it will never happen.

I think in the case of baseball the minor league system is needed. Players take too long to develop to leave have them on a 25 or 40 man roster and not have them playing.

As for the situation with minor league clubs, I want to say that some are owned and some are affiliates. I think a few years ago the Twins changed what club they were affiliated with at I believe the AA level.

[yabanci]

Since when did people pay attention to the NHL draft? If the NHL didn't have a draft, no one would miss it...

Then again, they could do away with the entire NHL and some of us wouldn't miss it.

[sabotai]

Then again, they could do away with the entire NHL and some of us wouldn't miss it.

Then again, you could away and some of us wouldn't miss you. :p

[yabanci]

Then again, you could away and some of us wouldn't miss you. :p

I would be surprised if you did.

[Huckleberry]

I think in the case of baseball the minor league system is needed. Players take too long to develop to leave have them on a 25 or 40 man roster and not have them playing.

As for the situation with minor league clubs, I want to say that some are owned and some are affiliates. I think a few years ago the Twins changed what club they were affiliated with at I believe the AA level.

I think they are all officially affiliated with. Minor league teams change major league affiliates quite frequently.

As for the players not getting experience, that's why big soccer clubs frequently loan out their younger players to lower level teams. For playing experience. Same thing could happen in baseball. If a player on the 40-man roster of a major league club isn't getting enough playing time up there, they could loan him to a AAA or AA club.

Of course, this is obviously only fantasy, but I think it could work. Clearly the adjustment would be immense.

[Mr. Wednesday]

The main reason why pro/rel will never happen here is risk. The current top-level professional league owners would be assuming the risk of a major loss of revenue (threatening their sizable investments and equity in their teams), for no significant benefits. I can't see them ever doing that.

[ice4277]

I think the possibility of a Champions League-style contest in hockey could exist if the following things all happen (keep in mind, I don't think they all will):

1. The NHL shuts down for a very, very long period of time (say, up to two seasons) and/or a number of teams are eliminated

2. Many players will be looking for work and venture to the European leagues, where salaries have been on the rise for the past few years.

3. When the NHL finally kicks back into full gear, they still do not have an agreement laid out with the IIHF to compensate European teams for players coming to North America. This results in fewer players coming over, and stronger teams across the pond.

4. Faced with a smaller set of teams/reduction in talent/pissed-off fans (pick any or all of these), the league decides it needs to try something new and arrranges a tournament with the top clubs in Europe, now featuring many former NHL'ers, to take place either directly after the NHL season ends, or before the following season begins.

Thus a hockey-style champions league is born. Probably not likely, but this is the only way I could see a scenario like this happening. Its just too unrealistic to expect a major league in the US to adopt relegation at this point; what owner in his right mind would want to vote for a plan that could see his/her team's revenue and fanbase drastically cut, perhaps permanently? It just won't ever happen.

[druez]

yeah, but it would still be very cool if they did!

[fantastic flying froggies]

yeah, but it would still be very cool if they did!
I think we can all agree on that...

[lighthousekeeper]

Playing Football Manager 2005 and researching more into the English League System (since I know so little about the sport) really makes me long for the English League soccer structure in American sports (i.e. with the promotion and relegation concept).

The following site is absolutely great for Americans (i.e. futbol newbies) to learn more background on English soccer.

English League Structure (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/English_football_league_system)

BTW, Football Manager 2005 tracks the top 6 tiers in detail and has teams from the 7th (and maybe lower tiers).

Apparently, there are up to 21 tiers!! And looking at this website (http://www.thepyramid.info/pyramid/Pyramid2.htm) there are well over 4700 TEAMS!! All linked through promotion, relegation (I am assuming here). If you assume an average of 20 players per team (which may be high), that's ~94,000 players! That's, like, 1 out of every 170 guys between the ages of 10 and 49 (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/pyramids/pages/UK.asp). No wonder the UK lags the US in productivity (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod4.nr0.htm).

I find it absolutely amazing that in Football Manager 2005 not only can I play as the Moor Green (http://www.moorgreenfc.co.uk/) football club, which averages less than 1000 attendance per game and had only 243 attend a recent game (http://www.moorgreenfc.co.uk/matchreports/rep250904.htm), but that all the real players, coaches, and even nurses (http://www.moorgreenfc.co.uk/Player%20Profiles.htm#jk)(yeah yeah - physios) like luvable schmuck Jimmy Kavanagh are included in the game.

[ISiddiqui]

I think it could pretty easily be put into place in Baseball or Hockey

:eek: Are you nuts? That would require baseball giving up their minor league affiliates and then how would drafted players develop? You'd have to have a system where young players would get bought by a minor league team until he got good and then would be bid on by the big league clubs (like how some English players move up... though most of the young stars get bidded on when they are like 14 and go on the big teams 'Youth' Squad). Or really big prospects would go on those Youth squad VERY early (and of course never go play college baseball).

You think it's bad that the Yanks buy up players? If an English league system comes into effect, you'd have all of the top teams trying to buy up the lower leagues. And yeah, dealing for players would change to money rather than other players, because which players would you give to the Division 3 squad? They'll ask for money.

It just won't work. England decided to join together all the football clubs in a promotion/relegation system while at the same time the US baseball major league decided to buy up the smaller leagues.

And what? Would the AL and NL each have their different relegation systems? The AL ones with the DH and the NL with out?

[Icy]

All the European leagues are that way, we have the same in Spain, a ladder from amateur football to professional one but with some changes. 1st and 2nd divisions don't have playoffs, every team plays twice versus all the other teams on the divsion, once at home and once away. At the end, the team with more points gets the title (3 points per victory, 1 per tie, 0 per lose). Under 2nd division we have Segunda B that is subdivided into regional divisions, at the end of the season, the two best team on each division play betwen them to get the 4 spots to go up in the ladder to 2nd division. That makes the step from 2B to 2 a big one, as you need to finish into the two first places on your division on the regular season and then fight with the best teams of each division to be able to promote. Under 2B we have more and more steps divided by regions. Everybody can start a team in the lowest division, you only need to pay a small fee to the Spanish league (around 1800€ right now i think) and you're in. I have played in a team as keeper when i was younger (mostly of Spanish have). A group of friends talked to a local Supermarket to pay us the fee and some money for equpment in exchange of wearing their brand name on our tshirts. We played 3 years on the lower local league and promoted once to the following one but then we had to pay more to play there and we were getting older so we left the team.

In Spain the big teams have also feeder teams, for example Real Madrid has as feeders Real Madrid B (mostly under 24 years old) and Real Madrid C (mostly under 20). That teams play in the ladder system as any other team with only a rule, the feeder team can't ever promote to the same divisioin than the main team, so let's say, if R.Madrid B wins second division that team can't be promoted to first division as the main Real Madrid is there. The following team on the league would take that spot. That has happened in the past.

[BreizhManu]

In Spain the big teams have also feeder teams, for example Real Madrid has as feeders Real Madrid B (mostly under 24 years old) and Real Madrid C (mostly under 20). That teams play in the ladder system as any other team with only a rule, the feeder team can't ever promote to the same divisioin than the main team, so let's say, if R.Madrid B wins second division that team can't be promoted to first division as the main Real Madrid is there. The following team on the league would take that spot. That has happened in the past.
And if the first team gets relegated the feeder club gets relegated too. Happened a few seasons ago to Atletico Madrid.
Else same thing in France except that feeder clubs can't go higher than CFA (4th level) while they can play in Segunda in Spain, in Nederlands (and maybe in Germany) feeder clubs can also play the cup.

[Young Drachma]

This could work in Hockey, since the minor league system isn't essentially owned by the major league. Some of the players are and such alike, but you notice that in minor league hockey, the clubs actually play in some of the same major markets as major league clubs - that's a no-no in baseball.

So it'd be doable, though I think the problem would be that on a larger scale people would be less likely to follow the sport if teams were changing all the time. Then what the leagues would have to bank on, is fan support keeping the sport popular when fairweather fans don't tune in.

Especially since hockey isn't a huge TV sport anyway, it probably isn't a huge deal - but I can't imagine the outcry of American fans if the Rangers were demoted to the AHL or something.

[Marc Vaughan]

I personally think there are strengths and weaknesses to both systems - I love the challenge of teams scaling the heights and the 'threat' of relegation keeps dire seasons interesting as a fan.

However I can also see benefits from the balancing that happens via. drafts etc.

PS. Below the 'Conference' there's a split level - Conference North/South which also has promotions and relegations (this is modelled in Football Manager 2005 - end of plug ;) ), below that there's another split level ... and below that ;)

[ISiddiqui]

I think the English system could only work for hockey in Canada, where there could be many minor league teams which are strongly supported by the community, so even if a 1st division team gets relegated they will have big fans. In the US, where hockey isn't life and death, I think if a 1st division team goes down (like the Rangers for instance), the attendance and fan support drops dramatically!

[dfisher]

One thing that is often overlooked in the plea to convert to the European promotion/relegation is the huge difference in size between the United States and pretty much any European country. The smaller divisions in England would never make it here; teams wouldn't be able to afford the travel costs. A lot of the smaller teams thrive on local rivalries; here a team would be lucky to play a quarter of its games against a team in the same state.

[Mac Howard]

I don't see any premier league that currently doesn't have promotion/relegation allowing it to come into their league - the financial risk of relegation is far to severe to be acceptable.

[lighthousekeeper]

but what I'm wondering is 2 things:

1. Since there are 4700 teams (and I don't even think that includes reserves or youth teams...but I'm not sure), can I join a team!? The last soccer I played was around 1985 as a GK. Since then I've shifted my focus primarily to Mountain Dew and napping. But I would think there must be some 10th or 11th tier league I could join.

-or-

2. Since even tier 6 (Conference North) teams like Moor Green struggle to have 300 people attend their games, could we scrape together some funds in the FOF charity pot (maybe $10K - $20K) to purchase one of these teams, sack the manager, and take over the helm? Sounds like a kick-ass vacation to me. Anyone game?

[lighthousekeeper]

I'm sorry to be harping on this...but the more I look into this the more I'm falling in love with European futbol.

$7 fine for failure to provide Beverage at conclusion of match = best.fine.ever (http://www.eifl.org.uk/fines.pdf) The fine for not providing Beverages (notice capitalization) at the end of the match is almost half the entrance fee? Why the hell does this not exist in the US? Why the hell doesn't every county in this country have its own baseball club? Please don't bring up softball - it's just not the same.

[KeyserSoze]

I ´ve to agree with ISiddiq in the main thing. For me, as european the main difference between European Sport and American is that for us the sport is pasion and for you is fun.

In Europe the teams that are relegated have a strong suport, even they play in a worst category. Look the years of "Infierno" of Atl. Madrid, look at Leeds or Napoli (3rd division) nowadays. They have strong support. I dont believe the US supporters will stand all the way on the hell with his team (I dont think as a bad thing, just different). In the other hand, look at the NFL. All the teams have chances to win in a mid-range place. In European leagues, I can say you 4 teams each league and I will know the 90% of the champions.

I think that the changes (pass the European to American System or viceversa) will be a too strong shock. Let it be as it is.


PD: Well.. no. Ban the NCAA (communist sistem) :D