Four U.S. civilians killed in Iraq - bodies hanged from bridge

[WSUCougar]

Barbaric. Nothing like a little corpse mutilation to get my blood boiling.

You can debate whether we should have invaded Iraq or whether we should still be there or whatever the hell you want, but when this kind of shit happens, the strongest sentiment is to treat these people like the savage animals they are.
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Suspected insurgents killed four American civilian contractors in a grenade attack Wednesday in central Iraq, U.S. officials said.

Cheering residents in Fallujah pulled charred bodies from burning vehicles and hung them from a Euphrates River bridge.

Crowds gathered around the vehicles and dragged at least one of the bodies through the streets, witnesses said.

Residents pulled another body from one of the cars and beat it with sticks.

Also in the Fallujah region, five American soldiers died in a roadside bombing near Habbaniya, the U.S. military said.

The fatalities bring the U.S. military death toll in Iraq to 600, 408 of them in hostile action.

In the attack on the civilians, witnesses said two Mitsubishi vehicles left a military base east of Fallujah to make their way into the city, about 30 miles (48 kilometers) west of Baghdad.

The vehicles turned onto a Fallujah street as men -- whose faces were covered by headscarves -- split into two groups and threw hand grenades at the cars, witnesses said.

The assailants then sprayed the burning cars with small-arms fire.

Video showed crowds chanting and cheering at the scene, with charred corpses hanging from the bridge over the Euphrates.

The U.S. State Department said the U.S. citizens worked for a company contracted by the coalition to work in Iraq.

Fallujah is part of al Anbar province in the "Sunni Triangle," a region north and west of the capital that has been a hotbed of opposition to the U.S. presence.

The White House condemned the "horriffic attacks" by people "trying to prevent democracy from moving forward," spokesman Scott McClellan said.

A changeover of power from the 82nd Airborne Division to the Marines is under way in al Anbar.

"There's a small core element [in Fallujah] that doesn't seem to get it," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, an Army spokesman who confirmed the four killed in the two-vehicle convoy were not military personnel.

Coalition Provisional Authority spokesman Dan Senor said those who exulted over the attack "are not people we are here to help. They are people who have a much different vision for the future of Iraq and the overwhelming majority of Iraqis."

Also Wednesday, two bodyguards for the governor of Diala province and three civilians were wounded in Baqubah, north of Baghdad, when an attacker pulled a car up beside the governor's car and detonated a bomb, Kimmitt said.

The bomb damaged vehicles and a building, but the governor was unharmed, he said.

In other violence Wednesday, three British troops were wounded when an improvised explosive device detonated near the southern Iraqi city of Basra, a British Defense Ministry spokesman said.

Spokesman Paul Sykes said the troops are receiving medical treatment. One of them was seriously injured, Sykes said, but he didn't know the exact nature of the wounds.

In northern Iraq, U.S. soldiers and Iraqi police detained 20 people Tuesday suspected of anti-coalition activities:


Soldiers from the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division and Iraqi police detained 10 people in Mosul. Iraqi police in Mosul also apprehended two people wanted in connection with a drive-by shooting.


Soldiers from 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment detained five suspects speeding away from the scene of a rocket attack in Hammam Al Alil near Mosul. The soldiers detained two suspects after searching door-to-door in Hammam Al Alil. Also in Hammam Al Alil, soldiers detained one suspect at a traffic control point.

[vex]

Sometimes I wish we'd just f'in bomb them.

[cody8200]

Agreed. This absolutely sickened me. Damn animals.

[sachmo71]

This morning I'd heard that 4 civilians were killed, but they didn't know what county they were from. It must be very hard for the soldiers to show restraint in a time like this.

[Peregrine]

I know it's hard in the face of outrages like this, but giving up on American morals and values and trading those in for the ones the killers share, would be a huge mistake in my opinion. We have to accept that it's going to be a long process in Iraq, and there are always going to be people who hate us, it's part of the price we pay for living in the greatest country in the world.

[The Afoci]

I know it's hard in the face of outrages like this, but giving up on American morals and values and trading those in for the ones the killers share, would be a huge mistake in my opinion. We have to accept that it's going to be a long process in Iraq, and there are always going to be people who hate us, it's part of the price we pay for living in the greatest country in the world.

I agree. Bomb em.

[Franklinnoble]

Let's face it. Islamic extremists would gladly nuke us, given the opportunity. There's no reasoning with them. The only chance we have is to bombard them with crappy pop music and movies and place a Starbucks and McDonald's on every street corner over there and hope that we can numb the minds of their future generations.

Nuking them would be quicker, but the government contracts handed out to the likes of Burger King and Disney are probably better for our economy.

[WSUCougar]

I know it's hard in the face of outrages like this, but giving up on American morals and values and trading those in for the ones the killers share, would be a huge mistake in my opinion. We have to accept that it's going to be a long process in Iraq, and there are always going to be people who hate us, it's part of the price we pay for living in the greatest country in the world.
Well said.

In retrospect, I feel a bit guilty for even posting this thread while pissed off. But mutilation of bodies always infuriates me...it doesn't matter who does it or in what situation. It just says to me that whoever is doing it shares few if any of my values. And you can't reason with wild animals.

But I do hear what you are saying.

[Subby]

I don't know what is more depressing - this news story or that we have lost 600 military personnel over there. :(

[RendeR]

I don't know what is more depressing - this news story or that we have lost 600 military personnel over there. :(


Losing 600 men is the all too high price for what has been done, but what those people did to non military people, who were there, in essence to HELP this city and start the rebuilding process, is unbelievably barbaric. They don't deserve the help we're giving them.

[Maple Leafs]

I don't know what is more depressing - this news story or that we have lost 600 military personnel over there. :(Does anyone else think that losing 600 personnel in a one year military campaign including a full air and ground war is actually amazingly succesful?

[duckman]

Does anyone else think that losing 600 personnel in a one year military campaign including a full air and ground war is actually amazingly succesful?
I sure do.

Also note that it wasn't Islamic extremists that killed these people today, but former Suni's that benefited from Saddam when he was in power. If Iraq becomes a democratic nation, then these people have the most to lose.

[sachmo71]

They don't deserve the help we're giving them.


Those who did this probably don't want the help we're giving them.


Does anyone else think that losing 600 personnel in a one year military campaign including a full air and ground war is actually amazingly succesful?


Some would, but many people seem shocked that we lost anyone. They see Gulf War I as the norm and don't really understand the difference between the two conflicts.

[WSUCougar]

Well, part of the problem is that it's not perceived as a military campaign any more.

[Subby]

Sorry - I have a hard time seeing "600" as just a number.

600 Americans had to die so that the Iraqi people could have Democracy?

That seems decidedly unsuccessful to me, but I suppose time will tell...

[The Afoci]

Sorry - I have a hard time seeing "600" as just a number.

600 Americans had to die so that the Iraqi people could have Democracy?

That seems decidedly unsuccessful to me, but I suppose time will tell...


So was the Normandy Invasion was very unsuccessful then?

[Subby]

So was the Normandy Invasion was very unsuccessful then?You aren't really making that kind of intellectual leap, are you?

<br><br>

[wig]

You aren't really making that kind of intellectual leap, are you?

<br><br>

"intellectual" might not be the right word here.

:(

[Subby]

Look, I will be the first to admit that I don't understand anything about world affairs. My instincts tell me that you send your soldiers to be killed in battle as a last resort. In other words, when the safety of your country is in grave danger. I would say that Word War II qualifies. I can even see the argument for the Gulf War. I used to think the same about Iraq, but primarily because I thought that Hussein was stockpiling WMD.

It's funny because I remember one of Bush's main points during his debates with Gore was that the United States military should NOT be used for nation-building. Yet here we are...building a pro-democracy government in Iraq...as way too many Americans are losing their lives...
<br><br>

[The Afoci]

You aren't really making that kind of intellectual leap, are you?

<br><br>


I was bored, tried to stir things up a bit. :P

[Subby]

I was bored, tried to stir things up a bit. :PFritz told me the best way to stir things up is to give wig a reach around...

[The Afoci]

told me the best way to stir things up is to give wig a reach around...

He must be black.

To clarify. Wig must be black if during a reach around he has the ability for it to stir things up in the best fashion. White penises only stir things up moderately from what I have seen.

[wig]

Fritz likes to "attack from the back"

[yabanci]

"I don’t think nation-building missions are worthwhile." -- George W. Bush, Presidential Debate at Wake Forest University Oct 11, 2000

[Fritz]

Fritz likes to "attack from the back"

leave me out of this one please

[Crapshoot]

Barbaric. Nothing like a little corpse mutilation to get my blood boiling.

You can debate whether we should have invaded Iraq or whether we should still be there or whatever the hell you want, but when this kind of shit happens, the strongest sentiment is to treat these people like the savage animals they are.

Calling Iraqi's as a whole "Savage animals" is hardly becoming - they do tend to remember that 10,000 of them have died. If your implication is about the specific murderers in this case- you may have a point; however, that was not the impression I got.

[Crapshoot]

Sometimes I wish we'd just f'in bomb them.

Who do you wish to bomb ? The Iraqi's at large ? As mentioned, 10,000 odd have died in this conflict- a figure scarcly reported here. I supported the war on the merit of removing Sadaam and am hardly a leftist, but I find that this kind of response absolutely frightening. Mourn for the 4 who died- don't try and kill more to satisfy some inane sense.

[sovereignstar]

Calling Iraqi's as a whole "Savage animals" is hardly becoming - they do tend to remember that 10,000 of them have died. If your implication is about the specific murderers in this case- you may have a point; however, that was not the impression I got.
Aye.

[SunDancer]

"I don’t think nation-building missions are worthwhile." -- George W. Bush, Presidential Debate at Wake Forest University Oct 11, 2000

Yeah, that was before 9/11. Isolation was not an option after that.

[yabanci]

Q: What is the role of the U.S. in the world?

BUSH: I’m not sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say this is the way it’s got to be. I want to empower people. I want to help people help themselves, not have government tell people what to do. I just don’t think it’s the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, we do it this way, so should you. We went into Russia, we said here’s some IMF money. It ended up in Chernomyrdin’s pocket. And yet we played like there was reform. The only people who are going to reform Russia are Russians. I’m not sure where the vice president’s coming from, but I think one way for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is for us to go around the world saying, we do it this way, so should you. I think the United States must be humble and must be proud and confident of our values, but humble in how we treat nations that are figuring out how to chart their own course.

Source: Presidential Debate at Wake Forest University Oct 11, 2000

[SFL Cat]

^^^Can't think of a better way to empower people than to take out an oppressive meglomaniacal tyrant and his psychotic heirs.

[NoMyths]

hehehe...was just thinking about this the other day, yabanci, and am glad you dug it up. Great stuff. :)

[yabanci]

^^^Can't think of a better way to empower people than to take out an oppressive meglomaniacal tyrant and his psychotic heirs.

I take it you have not yet been introduced to President Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan, the US' favorite new ally.

[Dutch]

How did I know a post about 4 Americans being killed and drug through the streets would have Yabanci and NoMyths "yucking it up". Sick.

[Dutch]

Sorry - I have a hard time seeing "600" as just a number.

600 Americans had to die so that the Iraqi people could have Democracy?

That seems decidedly unsuccessful to me, but I suppose time will tell...

Subby, it sucks. I wish 20,000 people weren't murdered in America in that same time span, but I don't see anybody getting pissed about that?

At least those 600 men and women died fighting for something important to America and I'm very proud of what they did for me and you.

On the other hand, most of those 20,000 that were murdered were to feed the drug habits of habitual drug users.

[yabanci]

How did I know a post about 4 Americans being killed and drug through the streets would have Yabanci and NoMyths "yucking it up". Sick.

hmmm, in a thread where multiple people advocate nuking the savage animals, etc., the "sick" person is the one who reminds others that even Bush understood that colonial occupation is bad news. Strange.

[NoMyths]

How did I know a post about 4 Americans being killed and drug through the streets would have Yabanci and NoMyths "yucking it up". Sick.If you can't separate the issue yabanci and I were addressing (Bush's flip-flopping on nation-building) from the deaths today (which I consider terrible...and being as how I've been pretty anti-death from the beginning of this engagement, my track record is fairly solid), you're as stupid as you are partisan.

[NoMyths]

dola

Subby, it sucks. I wish 20,000 people weren't murdered in America in that same time span, but I don't see anybody getting pissed about that?

At least those 600 men and women died fighting for something important to America and I'm very proud of what they did for me and you.

On the other hand, most of those 20,000 that were murdered were to feed the drug habits of habitual drug users.And frankly, to state that "most" of the people who were murdered were killed "to feed the drug habits of habitual drug users" is equally stupid.

Plenty of people--including the families of most of those folks--were and are plenty pissed off about those murders you reference. And if death were real to you in any serious way, instead of just patriotic posing, you'd probably be aware of that fact.

[Aesyrqwe]

Ask yourself this question when considering the 600 soldiers lost:

Is the world a better place without Saddam and his 2 sons around?

I think the obvious answer is yes.. Although im pretty sure someone will find a way to prove me wrong.

-Aes-

[Galaril]

Does anyone else think that losing 600 personnel in a one year military campaign including a full air and ground war is actually amazingly succesful?

Being that I am in the US Air Force(F-16 Pilot) at Osan AB in South Korea,I would say generally speaking losing 600 men is not a very successful operation when the war /major fighting (Misssion Accomplished) has come to an end.As an officer I would think there are few commanding officers who would view this as a success. :eek:

[Dutch]

yabanci,

People say that stuff during any tradegy. It's not bi-partisan digs designed to undercut America.

nomyths,

A majority of homicides are committed where drugs are involved. That's not stupid, that's fact.

But anyway,
The people who mutilated those American contractors and killed those soldiers are the bad guys. I won't respond anymore to you in this thread for fear of making it more personal. Go ahead and take the last word if you want it.

[SFL Cat]

hmmm, in a thread where multiple people advocate nuking the savage animals, etc., the "sick" person is the one who reminds others that even Bush understood that colonial occupation is bad news. Strange.

Why am I not surprised that you are from the People's Republic of California. Maybe now that Arnie is in as your gov, your state will return from its sojourn in la-la land and rejoin the union.

[The Afoci]

I think the main difference between most people now and people 50 years ago is the sense of understanding that sacrifices must be made to make the world a better place. Sometimes those sacrifices aren't what we wish they would be, but they still must be made.

This was what my Grandma told me when I did a Oral History report on her in College. She lost her brother in WWII. Her step brother was wounded in Pearl Harbor. Her father was a test pilot that died in a crash.

Well I understand that people dying is never an ideal situation, but in some cases, sacrifices must be made to make the world a better place.

[NoMyths]

yabanci,

People say that stuff during any tradegy. It's not bi-partisan digs designed to undercut America.

nomyths,

A majority of homicides are committed where drugs are involved. That's not stupid, that's fact.

But anyway,
The people who mutilated those American contractors and killed those soldiers are the bad guys. I won't respond anymore to you in this thread for fear of making it more personal. Go ahead and take the last word if you want it.Dutch,
I have no problem debating issues with you when we keep it to the issue level. It's when you say things like 'yabanci and nomyths are yucking it up in this death thread, sick' that it becomes personal. We obviously have very different political perspectives, and I'm comfortable keeping the dialogue on the level of those differences. But if you're going to call me out by name, you've got to expect me to respond in a more personal way.

I agree that the folks who killed the soldiers and civilians today are bad guys. I also think that it's foolish to want to nuke a country just because a minority of the folks there are psychotic, especially considering that we're supposed to rally around the war as being a way for us to help those same people.

[SunDancer]

Dutch,
I have no problem debating issues with you when we keep it to the issue level. It's when you say things like 'yabanci and nomyths are yucking it up in this death thread, sick' that it becomes personal. We obviously have very different political perspectives, and I'm comfortable keeping the dialogue on the level of those differences. But if you're going to call me out by name, you've got to expect me to respond in a more personal way.

I agree that the folks who killed the soldiers and civilians today are bad guys. I also think that it's foolish to want to nuke a country just because a minority of the folks there are psychotic, especially considering that we're supposed to rally around the war as being a way for us to help those same people.

Its foolish to nuke any country at all, or bye-bye life as well know it.

[rexallllsc]

Why am I not surprised that you are from the People's Republic of California. Maybe now that Arnie is in as your gov, your state will return from its sojourn in la-la land and rejoin the union.

I think the rest of the US needs CA a lot more than CA needs the US.

[Poli]

Sigh.

[Easy Mac]

nomyths,

A majority of homicides are committed where drugs are involved. That's not stupid, that's fact.

ummm... according to FBI studies, 4.8% of all homicides are drug related. This is 1998.

[Leonidas]

On the positive side, every day for the last several weeks when I go to work I get to see the families waiting for the husbands, wives, mommies, and daddies to come home as the 82nd ABN, for the first time in three years, will finally have all its folks home. It's really uplifting to see them march off a C-17 and see the families going crazy. And this happens literally right outside my office every day now.

But seeing what happened in Iraq today summons forth a portion of the pain 9/11 burned into me. All in all pretty bitter sweet.

[Fritz]

I think the rest of the US needs CA a lot more than CA needs the US.


now this would be a good thread all on its own.

[JeeberD]

I think the rest of the US needs CA a lot more than CA needs the US.

Oh good lord. You sound just like those loons who formed the Republic of Texas (http://www.republic-of-texas.net/)... :rolleyes:

[Leonidas]

I think the rest of the US needs CA a lot more than CA needs the US.

Yes, we would be utterly lost without Barbara Streisand, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, and Governor Schwarzenegger providing guidance, and of course imagine how boring life would be without the Michael Jackson trial to entertain us.

From those great philosphers, Tool

Ænema

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA

It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.

Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.
Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.

Learn to swim.

Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.

[duckman]

On the positive side, every day for the last several weeks when I go to work I get to see the families waiting for the husbands, wives, mommies, and daddies to come home as the 82nd ABN, for the first time in three years, will finally have all its folks home. It's really uplifting to see them march off a C-17 and see the families going crazy. And this happens literally right outside my office every day now.

But seeing what happened in Iraq today summons forth a portion of the pain 9/11 burned into me. All in all pretty bitter sweet.
When Saddam was removed from power, the most amazing thing happened in Oklahoma of all places. The 552 AMXS had all 28 of their AWACS along with personnel home for the first time in nearly 30 years because now we don't have to babysit Saddam. This world is better with Saddam gone.

[WSUCougar]

Calling Iraqi's as a whole "Savage animals" is hardly becoming - they do tend to remember that 10,000 of them have died. If your implication is about the specific murderers in this case- you may have a point; however, that was not the impression I got.
Pause a moment from galloping around on your moral high horse to explain how you misinterpreted what I said to include "Iraqis as a whole."

And what point does the statement "they do tend to remember that 10,000 of them have died" support exactly? Are you attempting to somehow justify these barbaric actions as acts of war? Do they get some kind of free murder and corpse mutilation because they lost the war?

Clearly, sovereignstar feels the same way as you do, thus his telling "Aye" post. So please, enlighten me.

[Anthony]

funny, i have yet to hear anyone from the appointed Iraqi Government condemn the bombing today. all's been mum on their front.

what i'd like to see right now is a clearly defined exit strategy from the Bush Administration. and by clearly defined i mean an exact date. the way it is now the wording allows for an extended stay, especially at this rate. we need to get out and let the UN buffoons in. get the troops home, don't ever spend another dime on that horrible country, and invest in our own home, making sure every child has a PC in our schools and encourage rapid development of alternative fuel sources.

[Vegas Vic]

The tragic irony of these deaths and of the deaths of our soldiers since obtaining "victory" is that Iraq's hatred of America now surpasses Iraq's hatred of Saddam Hussein.



***WARNING*** GRAPHIC PICTURES BELOW. SCROLL DOWN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM.















http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/03/31/international/31fallujah.slide3.jpg

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/03/31/international/31fallujah.slide8.jpg

[Anthony]

they weren't so brave when Saddam was in power. that's why you can't fight a PC battle. to win you have to be more savage than your opponent. it's really true - it's better to be feared than loved. we're trying to shoot the bad guys with one hand and help the good guys with the other. what a doomed campaign. you can't tell me this is success when so many troops are still dying. used to be when you "won" a war the dying stopped, albeit for a little while (or at least the victorious army didn't suffer more casualties). time for a regime change, and i'm not talking about Iraq.

[AENeuman]

I'm reminded of a quote from the movie code unknown: stop showing sad pictures that make me feel sa

[AENeuman]

sorry, "sad"

[Anthony]

no, these pictures are necessary for us to make the necessary decisions. that is, you gotta know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. those pics make it clear that we accomplished as much as we're gonna accomplish there, the threat, or at least the urgent threat, is gone. end of war. let them shoot each other if that's how they want to govern themselves.

i thought at the very least the price of gas would go down as a result of the 2nd Gulf War. we didn't even get that much.

our tax dollars paid for those insects to be freed from a tyrant so they could act like savages to Americans. you should feel sad.

[BishopMVP]

used to be when you "won" a war the dying stopped, albeit for a little while (or at least the victorious army didn't suffer more casualties). time for a regime change, and i'm not talking about Iraq.This hasn't been the case in the countries the US has occupied after a war (Germany, Japan, up to most recently Afghanistan.)
no, these pictures are necessary for us to make the necessary decisions. that is, you gotta know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. those pics make it clear that we accomplished as much as we're gonna accomplish there, the threat, or at least the urgent threat, is gone. end of war. let them shoot each other if that's how they want to govern themselves.
our tax dollars paid for those insects to be freed from a tyrant so they could act like savages to Americans. you should feel sad.This was one horrific incident in the most hardcore anti-American part of Iraq. In the 90 percent of Iraq outside the 'Sunni Triangle' there have been very few attacks. Don't condemn everyone in the country for the actions of a few. And the last time something like this happened in Somalia, we pulled out and I don't think that decision has served us well, or Somalia as a whole.

[Crapshoot]

Pause a moment from galloping around on your moral high horse to explain how you misinterpreted what I said to include "Iraqis as a whole."

And what point does the statement "they do tend to remember that 10,000 of them have died" support exactly? Are you attempting to somehow justify these barbaric actions as acts of war? Do they get some kind of free murder and corpse mutilation because they lost the war?

Clearly, sovereignstar feels the same way as you do, thus his telling "Aye" post. So please, enlighten me.


"the strongest sentiment is to treat these people like the savage animals they are"- you said that. Like I said- if you're referring to the killers you may have a point, but given some of the personalities around here (like the guy who thinks the world would be better of from muslims) I could not be sure- I have no impression of you as of now. Why this is my galloping moral high horse (nice string there) Im not quite sure- All I said is that you feel the anger at the death of 4 Americans- how do you think an Iraqi who lost a family member to American soliders feel ? IF he expressed the same sentiment as you- well, wouldn't that motivate him to do things like this ? Im not justifying it- Im simply saying its statements like yours when acted upon, that cause problems like this in first place. I may be on a moral "high horse" - but you are squarely in the gutter with regards to morality here.

[Sharpieman]

Ask yourself this question when considering the 600 soldiers lost:

Is the world a better place without Saddam and his 2 sons around?

I think the obvious answer is yes.. Although im pretty sure someone will find a way to prove me wrong.

-Aes-
I think the answer is yes and no. Saddam was a horrible man, and getting rid of him is a good thing. And its a great thing that he and his sons are not in power. However, if you look at it from your point of view and from what the Bush admin is trying to convey to the public, both your basic ideologies are that the "end justifies the means." This is one ideology I have a particularly hard time with. There are many points that can be said that don't justify the means. Just to name a few; the cost of the lives of American toops in an increasingly guerilla like atomsphere, the cost of the war, the burglary of Halliburton, there was no actual immediate threat to the US, no WMD found (still pending of course), no credible evidence of a link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. But if your fine with that ideology then so be it Mr. "Machiavelli."

[Sharpieman]

dola, to not belittle the attacks on innocent Americans, I would like to ask for all of you to pray for the families and close ones of those recently killed. I don't like the idea of the "nuke 'em" theory, I would rather the US troops go into Falluja(I know I didn't spell that right) and seek out those who did that horrible act.

[Sharpieman]

Why am I not surprised that you are from the People's Republic of California. Maybe now that Arnie is in as your gov, your state will return from its sojourn in la-la land and rejoin the union.
This coming from a guy who comes from the most laughable state in the union, Florida. And by the way, most intellectuals don't come from "la-la Land" they come from northern california :)

[Fritz]

The tragic irony of these deaths and of the deaths of our soldiers since obtaining "victory" is that Iraq's hatred of America now surpasses Iraq's hatred of Saddam Hussein.



wow. those two pictures prove everything!

[Subby]

It is a shame threads like these have to devolve into personal attacks...

[sachmo71]

Wow, thanks for the warning about the pictures...jesus. :(

[Ben E Lou]

Wow, thanks for the warning about the pictures...jesus. :(For those that requested a warning, I've put one in.

[Vegas Vic]

For those that requested a warning, I've put one in.

I probably should have posted a warning initially. My apologies to anyone who was offended.

As gruesome and repulsive as the pictures are, I think that it's important to see what these savages did to our people. I felt the same way about the Somalia and WTC attack images. When you see our media's edited versions, these barbaric acts seem surreal. Well, they aren't.

[HornedFrog Purple]

no, these pictures are necessary for us to make the necessary decisions. that is, you gotta know when to hold them, and know when to fold them...

...know when to walk away, and know when to run? :D

Sorry I just had Kenny Rogers in my head.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I probably should have posted a warning initially. My apologies to anyone who was offended.

As gruesome and repulsive as the pictures are, I think that it's important to see what these savages did to our people. I felt the same way about the Somalia and WTC attack images. When you see our media's edited versions, these barbaric acts seem surreal. Well, they aren't.

dola yup.

Likewise they should show the lives of 600 families whom have been drastically altered already.

[Subby]

Well I understand that people dying is never an ideal situation, but in some cases, sacrifices must be made to make the world a better place. Sorry, but this statement just bothers me.

I have no idea if you are in the military or not, but it seems disingenuous to me that you can make that kind of judgement call when you are safely tucked away behind a computer keyboard, thousands of miles away from harm's way.

As someone who made the decision not to serve, it is even more difficult for me to see those who did dying so that another country could possibly enjoy the fruits of democracy.

I fully understand that these men and women entered the armed forces knowing full well what they were getting involved in. Hopefully their families are at peace with that, but it doesn't make me feel any better.

[NoMyths]

(Minor threadjacking alert)

I think it's interesting that we can post pictures here of humans who have been burned and hung, and yet posting pictures of women without clothes on will result in the pictures being removed and a possible banning.

(end minor threadjack)

[sachmo71]

As gruesome and repulsive as the pictures are, I think that it's important to see what these savages did to our people. I felt the same way about the Somalia and WTC attack images. When you see our media's edited versions, these barbaric acts seem surreal. Well, they aren't.

I don't need to see it to know it was horrible. Just hearing the description was quite enough to make me run through a range of emotions. I do accept your apology, however I would hope that in the future, people remember that not everyone needs visual evidence to understand the extent of atrocities committed.

[wig]

Subby, you clearly don't understand the thoughts of the basic military man.

I know that when I was in the active duty Marines, we all were praying that we would get sent to Iraq. We wanted to go.

Obviously the reserves that are being sent over there will feel different, but I'm not sold on using reserves as front line troops anyway.

[cuervo72]

(Minor threadjacking alert)

I think it's interesting that we can post pictures here of humans who have been burned and hung, and yet posting pictures of women without clothes on will result in the pictures being removed and a possible banning.

(end minor threadjack)

Hey, I'm with you here, NM (when it comes to pictures of scantily clad women, I'm pretty liberal ;) )!

[WSUCougar]

All I said is that you feel the anger at the death of 4 Americans- how do you think an Iraqi who lost a family member to American soliders feel ? IF he expressed the same sentiment as you- well, wouldn't that motivate him to do things like this ? Im not justifying it- Im simply saying its statements like yours when acted upon, that cause problems like this in first place. I may be on a moral "high horse" - but you are squarely in the gutter with regards to morality here.
And what I'm simply saying is that my value system does not take lightly the triumphant mutilation of my countrymen's corpses. From MY perspective, not an Iraqi's, you've crossed another, deeper line when you do such barbaric acts. My god, it's bad enough that we have soldiers dying - which I feel equates more closely to what you are saying with Iraqi sentiment - but you don't see American soldiers dragging dead Iraqis through the streets or hanging them from bridges, now do you? People are prone to citing references to Nazi Germany on this board...well, here's a dead-on comparison. The Nazis loved to do this kind of shit. String up the wretched souls they murdered and let every one see them.

They behave like wild animals, treat them as such.

If that's the moral gutter, than I am quite content to reside there.

[Ben E Lou]

Since it was mentioned, I'll respond. One *major* difference is this: the graphic pictures were posted from the NY Times. I seriously doubt anyone's office net snooping software is going nail anyone for coming to FOFC because of a link to the NY Times.

[Subby]

Subby, you clearly don't understand the thoughts of the basic military man.

I know that when I was in the active duty Marines, we all were praying that we would get sent to Iraq. We wanted to go. I never purported that the basic military man wasn't ready and eager for anything of this nature. And I am eternally grateful to you and everyone else who served for doing just that.

It doesn't change the fact that it saddens me to see us lose American lives in a war that is probably of little to no benefit to our country.

None of this changes the fact that I am supremely proud of and in constant awe of our troops. They are making sacrifices that I doubt I could right now...

[The Afoci]

Sorry, but this statement just bothers me.

I have no idea if you are in the military or not, but it seems disingenuous to me that you can make that kind of judgement call when you are safely tucked away behind a computer keyboard, thousands of miles away from harm's way.

As someone who made the decision not to serve, it is even more difficult for me to see those who did dying so that another country could possibly enjoy the fruits of democracy.

I fully understand that these men and women entered the armed forces knowing full well what they were getting involved in. Hopefully their families are at peace with that, but it doesn't make me feel any better.

I am not in the military, but have family that was and currently is in it. I have friends in Iraq right now. I am not trying to downplay the loss of life as something we just shouldn't worry about. Obviously we should do all we can to prevent the loss of life.

I have no personal experience with losing someone in war, but my Grandma does. I can only go off what she says and say that I feel for those who lost people in this war and hope that they can get some amount of relief from knowing that eventually, many people in Iraq will be safe and free.

[Crapshoot]

And what I'm simply saying is that my value system does not take lightly the triumphant mutilation of my countrymen's corpses. From MY perspective, not an Iraqi's, you've crossed another, deeper line when you do such barbaric acts. My god, it's bad enough that we have soldiers dying - which I feel equates more closely to what you are saying with Iraqi sentiment - but you don't see American soldiers dragging dead Iraqis through the streets or hanging them from bridges, now do you? People are prone to citing references to Nazi Germany on this board...well, here's a dead-on comparison. The Nazis loved to do this kind of shit. String up the wretched souls they murdered and let every one see them.

They behave like wild animals, treat them as such.

If that's the moral gutter, than I am quite content to reside there.

Clarify the "They" you're referring to- Im not stil not quite sure. If you are saying that about Iraqi's at large- well in that case, you should be comfortable in the gutter- you're showing a remarkable hypocrisy. And an additional 3000 or so civilians were killed- are the deaths of those 3000 worth less ? Because essentialy, they are responding in the same tone you are (their value system does not take likely the murder of their countrymen). From my perspective, you are espousing the same philosophy as the people who did this- and I find it sickening on your part. The Killers in this case should be brought to justice- but justice is the not the sick crap that you and your ilk advocate.

[WSUCougar]

Okay, let me spell it out for you:

They = THE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE MUTILATED THE AMERICAN CORPSES AND HUNG THEM OFF A BRIDGE.

Is that clear enough?
From my perspective, you are espousing the same philosophy as the people who did this- and I find it sickening on your part. The Killers in this case should be brought to justice- but justice is the not the sick crap that you and your ilk advocate.
I must admit I don't know jack about you other than by your postings in this thread, but based on that alone you are remarkable in your ability to grossly misrepresent things. Let me see if I have this straight: you're equating my statements in this thread with the people who mutilated corpses and hanged them from a bridge? WTF? What "sick crap" do me and "my ilk" advocate? Are you mixing me in with what others have said?

My whole point in this thread is that when people degenerate to the point of savagery (and I truly hope you are not somehow saying that this is not savagery), you have to take that into account when you deal with them. You don't just go out into the wild and let the predators feast on you.

I've re-written this post several times to try and keep it civil. It was a struggle.

[Crapshoot]

Okay, let me spell it out for you:

They = THE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE MUTILATED THE AMERICAN CORPSES AND HUNG THEM OFF A BRIDGE.

Is that clear enough?

I must admit I don't know jack about you other than by your postings in this thread, but based on that alone you are remarkable in your ability to grossly misrepresent things. Let me see if I have this straight: you're equating my statements in this thread with the people who mutilated corpses and hanged them from a bridge? WTF? What "sick crap" do me and "my ilk" advocate? Are you mixing me in with what others have said?

My whole point in this thread is that when people degenerate to the point of savagery (and I truly hope you are not somehow saying that this is not savagery), you have to take that into account when you deal with them. You don't just go out into the wild and let the predators feast on you.

I've re-written this post several times to try and keep it civil. It was a struggle.
Funny- I tried to kepp it civil despite your other postings. And I said that you have the same attitude that these killers have- to treat these people like savages(which is how they view the Americans). Im not equating your actions- Im simply pointing out the similarity in perspective. It is undoubtedly savagery, but I don't believe that responding to savage action with more is the answer. You do not respond in like - that means you have denigrated to their level. That, and the advocation of treating them like "wild animals"- is what I percieve as wrong with your entire arguement.

[WSUCougar]

So if I use your logic, American contractors driving by in cars represented the same "savage animals" to the Iraqis, as they (murderers and corpse mutilators) now do to me. Sorry, but that's a pretty bizarre way to look at it.

Yet you say that justice should be done. How would you approach that? I'd genuinely like to hear your response.

[Crapshoot]

So if I use your logic, American contractors driving by in cars represented the same "savage animals" to the Iraqis, as they (murderers and corpse mutilators) now do to me. Sorry, but that's a pretty bizarre way to look at it.

Yet you say that justice should be done. How would you approach that? I'd genuinely like to hear your response.

Sigh*. I think that American soldiers who have killed Iraqi civilians accidently are hard to believe for the Iraqi populace- do I believe that American soliders would shoot at civilians on purpose ? No, but I think some of that might lose their cool and overreact. I think the Iraqi populace (and the Arab world in general) might interpret it differently. The extremists amongst them would react the same way you have- by demanding you treat the American soldiers as savages. Let me try and reiterate this again: the only comparison Im making is of the "treat them like savages" attitude- for some reason, you percieve me as insulting your right to be angry, or as justifying this. That attitude is what scares me, because I think the extremists on either side share that.

On the second question, I think Justice would be a trial in an Iraqi court, and I think life imprisonment would be a fair outcome- Right Winger or not, Im generally not in favor of the death penalty. Nonetheless, that's up to the court- not me. I don't think a US trial would be reasonable since it is out of their jurisdiction.

[WSUCougar]

The Iraqis react with bitterness and moral outrage at the American invasion and continued presence in their country, as well as the loss of thousands of Iraqi lives, and therefore murder non-combatants, beat their bodies, drag them through the streets, and hang them from a bridge.

I react with bitterness and moral outrage at these barbaric acts, and state that the perpetrators are behaving like savages and should be treated as such.

To elaborate, that means that we cannot assume these individuals are operating under the “normal” bounds of civilized people. They have dropped the gloves, in a manner of speaking. Although you seem to keep reading this into my words, I have never stated that they should be bombed, shot, raped & pillaged, whatever. What I do believe, though, is that by their barbarous conduct they have forsworn the right to be treated like nothing happened.

I think Justice would be a trial in an Iraqi court, and I think life imprisonment would be a fair outcome- Right Winger or not, Im generally not in favor of the death penalty. Nonetheless, that's up to the court- not me. I don't think a US trial would be reasonable since it is out of their jurisdiction.
That’s all well and good, but we’re not talking about Springfield, Ohio. This was hostile territory, made incendiary by the actions of yesterday. How do you feel the perpetrators should be arrested?

[cody8200]

hxxp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index2&cid=1806

If you want to see the video of this (absolutely the most horrible thing I've ever seen) go down to the link on the page that says, "Warning: Graphic Content -- Iraqis Drag Corpses of 4 Americans Through Streets " Definetely do not do this if you cant handle how bad this really was.

[WSUCougar]

Today on CNN.com:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Top U.S. officials in Baghdad Thursday decried the killings of four U.S. security contractors in Fallujah, vowed to hunt down the perpetrators and promised to pacify the restive anti-U.S. hotbed.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a U.S. Army spokesman, said "we will be back in Fallujah. It will be at the time and place of our choosing. We will hunt down the criminals."

"Quite simply, we will respond," Kimmitt said.

"We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city," Kimmitt said. "It's going to be deliberate. It will be precise and it will be overwhelming. We will not rush in to make things worse. We will plan our way through this and we will re-establish control of that city -- and we will pacify that city."

"I suspect that most Iraqi people were as horrified," Kimmitt said.

He also said it is "unfair to characterize a tragic incident as a loss of control to the city" and said Marines, who have set up traffic stops outside the city, handled Wednesday's flare-up prudently.

"I think there was a well-thought-out decision on part of the Marines that let's not rush headlong into there. There may be ambushes set up," Kimmitt said.

"There may be civilians being used as human shields and at this point while it was dreadful, while it was unacceptable, while it was bestial, a pre-emptive attack into the city could have taken a bad situation and made it even worse."

Top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq Paul Bremer, speaking at a police cadet graduation ceremony, said, "Yesterday's events in Fallujah are a dramatic example of the ongoing struggle between human dignity and barbarism."

The four -- employees of a security company that has provided security for Bremer -- "were attacked and their bodies subjected to barbarous maltreatment," Bremer said. "The acts we have seen were despicable and inexcusable. They violate the tenets of all religions including Islam as well as the foundations of civilized society.

"Their deaths will not go unpunished."

The contractors were killed in a grenade attack by suspected insurgents.

Afterward, residents cheered and pulled charred bodies from burning vehicles and hung them from a Euphrates River bridge.

Crowds gathered around the vehicles and dragged at least one of the bodies through the streets, witnesses said.

Residents pulled another body from one of the cars and beat it with sticks.

The bodies eventually were recovered by authorities, the Coalition Press Information Center said. But it is not known by whom and exactly when.

Five American soldiers also died Wednesday in a roadside bombing near Habbaniya, the U.S. military said.

The fatalities brought the U.S. military death toll in Iraq to 600, 408 of them in hostile action.

As the date to transfer governing power from the U.S.-led coalition to the Iraqis gets closer, U.S. officials said they expect more attacks like Wednesday's in Fallujah.

Bremer said the coalition will cooperate with and help the Iraqis after the June 30 handover of sovereignty and "for as long as necessary."

Violence continued Thursday as two roadside bombs exploded northwest of Baghdad, apparently targeting a convoy of 25 fuel tankers under U.S. military escort, according to eyewitnesses and military sources.

The first improvised explosive device (IED) hit an Iraqi civilian vehicle at 7:30 a.m. (11:30 p.m. ET Wednesday), sending the driver to a hospital for treatment, witnesses said. About 40 minutes later, the second IED struck the fuel tanker convoy, wounding an employee for a U.S. military contractor who was driving one of the fuel trucks.

The IEDs are believed to have been detonated by remote control.

None of the trucks exploded, and the wounded driver -- whose nationality was unclear -- was evacuated for further treatment.

[Crapshoot]

That’s all well and good, but we’re not talking about Springfield, Ohio. This was hostile territory, made incendiary by the actions of yesterday. How do you feel the perpetrators should be arrested?

Im not sure what you're saying here- they should be arrested however its possible. However, I don't think they should be treated horribly by any means- the US should not sink to their standards.

[WSUCougar]

Im not sure what you're saying here- they should be arrested however its possible.
There's the rub, or at least part of it. The perpetrators have demonstrated a clear disdain for civilized behavior. Arresting them will be problematic, to say the least. So what steps do you think are acceptable?

[SFL Cat]

This coming from a guy who comes from the most laughable state in the union, Florida. And by the way, most intellectuals don't come from "la-la Land" they come from northern california :)

We never used to have all these voting problems. Must be all those damn New York transplants. ;)

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Why is that town not leveled and every one of those sub-human pieces of shit dead yet?

[Anthony]

Im not sure what you're saying here- they should be arrested however its possible. However, I don't think they should be treated horribly by any means- the US should not sink to their standards.

why? why should we take the moral high ground ? why should our soldiers be held to different standards? if this were prison the guards would be given authority to use whatever force necessary to subdue the wild ones. this isn't a playground where a teacher tells little Johnny to be the bigger man even though he's being picked on. this is hostile territory. you must crush the will of harm-doers. put fear in them.

this is why if you're not gonna fight a war more fiercely than your opponent, you shouldn't fight one at all. more will die, and that's a shame.

[Crapshoot]

why? why should we take the moral high ground ? why should our soldiers be held to different standards? if this were prison the guards would be given authority to use whatever force necessary to subdue the wild ones. this isn't a playground where a teacher tells little Johnny to be the bigger man even though he's being picked on. this is hostile territory. you must crush the will of harm-doers. put fear in them.

this is why if you're not gonna fight a war more fiercely than your opponent, you shouldn't fight one at all. more will die, and that's a shame.

In essence, you'r arguing for war with the lowest common denominator- if one party kills civilians, should the other as well ? Fundementally, we're going to disagree here. Im not American, so perhaps I have a different perspective - I tend to think that if one percieves oneself as the global policeman, one shouldn't follow the standards of criminals.

[Anthony]

when in Rome...

[Anthony]

in my defense, i'm not advocating random murder of innocents and mutilation of their bodies.

but history tells us that the army that's willing to take things to the next level is usually most effective in bringing order to a hostile environment. or else you think we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima cuz we like really big fire crackers.

[BishopMVP]

We could go HA's way and say, fuck it, let's bomb the whole country and start indiscriminately shooting. But our army won't, even at greater risk to the soldiers. That makes us better than our enemies.

[Anthony]

in my defense i'm also not advocating dropping a nuke on them. this is afterall just one incident (albeit one in a series of many incidents).

when you look at our army and what's left of the Iraqi vigilante force or whatever they consider themselves, they really should have been put down long ago. i mean, we're talking about fighting with swords against people fighting with toothpicks. bad strategy and bad exit plan.