Mom who killed on God's word is not guilty

[miami_fan]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/children.slain/index.html

Mom who killed on God's word is not guilty
Jury rules she was insane when she bludgeoned her 3 children
Saturday, April 3, 2004 Posted: 10:11 PM EST (0311 GMT)



Deanna Laney leaves the courtroom after closing arguments in her trial Saturday.

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(CNN) -- A woman who claimed God ordered her to bash in the heads of her sons was acquitted of all charges by reason of insanity Saturday after a jury determined she did not know right from wrong during the killings.

A jury found that Deanna Laney was legally insane May 9 when she killed her two older sons, ages 6 and 8, in the front yard and left the youngest, now 2, maimed in his crib. Laney, 39, would have received an automatic life sentence had she been convicted of capital murder.

Laney broke into tears as the verdict was read. Her husband, Keith Laney, sat solemnly with his head down. A few jurors cried and struggled to maintain their composure.

State law allows Laney to be committed to a maximum security state hospital. Medical evaluations will dictate when she will be released. She will remain at the Smith County Jail until a hearing regarding her transfer.

Defense attorney Tonda Curry said the verdict doesn't mean Laney escaped punishment.

"Now and for the rest of her life, the punishment and torment that's going on in her own head is more significant and more damaging to her than anything the criminal justice system could have done, other than death," Curry said.

All five mental health experts consulted in the case, including two for the prosecution and one for the judge, concluded that a severe mental illness caused Laney to have psychotic delusions that rendered her incapable of knowing right from wrong during the killings -- the standard in Texas for insanity.

Smith County District Attorney Matt Bingham said had no regrets about taking the case to trial.

"This is a case that the citizens of this county needed to make the decision on," he said.

Jurors deliberated about seven hours before reaching their verdict in the deaths of 8-year-old Joshua and 6-year-old Luke, and the beating of Aaron.

Defense attorneys argued that insanity was the only reason why a deeply religious mother who homeschooled her children would kill two of them and maim another without so much as a tear.

"There was no crying," Curry said. "She was insane. There is no other answer."


Aaron, left, Luke and Joshua Laney are shown in this undated family photograph.
Psychiatrists testified that Laney believed she was divinely chosen by God -- just as Mary was chosen to bear Christ -- to kill her children as a test of faith and then serve as a witness after the world ended. In a videotape played at her trial, Laney said she saw her youngest son play with a spear, hold a rock and squeeze a frog, and took them all as signs from God that she should kill her children.

In closing arguments earlier Saturday, prosecutors portrayed the killings last Mother's Day weekend as deceptively planned and coldly executed.

"It was graphic, it was horrific and it was brutal," Bingham told the jury.

Bingham pounded his fist in his hand as he recounted Joshua's killing: "He got strike after strike after strike on his head to the point that his brains were coming out of his head like liquid."

Prosecutors portrayed the killings as deceptively planned and coldly executed. They said that even if Laney believed she was doing right by God, she had to have known she was doing wrong by state law. Her first call, they pointed out, was to 911 to summon authorities.

The 911 tape was among the evidence jurors reviewed during deliberations. They also went over psychiatric testimony to resolve a disagreement over why Deanna Laney stopped beating Aaron, then 14 months old.

Psychiatrists testified that Laney couldn't finish killing the baby, and that she told God, "You're just going to have to do the rest." Prosecutors said that action indicated Laney knew right from wrong and that if she chose to disobey God's orders by not killing Aaron, she could have disobeyed his orders to kill the other two.

Bingham said Aaron, who lives with his father, suffered permanent injuries in the attack.


I have tried to come to grips with the whole insanity plea thing. I have family members who have spent some time in mental institutions. I still can not help feeling that this lady got away with murder. I agree with the defense lawyer who says that the torment of the incident should torture Laney for the rest of her life. The cynical side of me just is not too sure. Either way this is a sad case :(

[Axxon]

Wow, that is shocking. I had less sympathy for her than Mrs. Yates actually but this verdict made sense.

I did offend some of the ladies I work with though. I mentioned that if God tells you to do something what can you do?

One said God wouldn't tell you to do this but I said he told Abraham to kill Isaac.

That went ok then one kept saying "God didn't tell her to do that."

I kept asking "how do you know" but she kept repeating herself. Finally I said "what gets me is that christians have no doubt that centuries ago God entered a burning bush and told Moses what to do but let someone today say that God told them something and you can't accept that it's possible."

That ended that conversation. :(

I still don't get it. I'm not saying that God did tell her this but it's equally as likely as any of God's other appearances.

Since no one is claiming that she had any other motive except hearing the word of God how quick the believers are to disregard her and say she was crazy. I don't know but I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. God works in mysterious ways after all.

[Chubby]

I guess the insanity thing is reasonable tho who knows.

But come on, who honestly thinks god told her to kill her 3 kids? Besides, I think the 1 kid it wasn't even god told her, she saw the kid with a spear, rock, and a frog in his hands at some point and took that as the sign from god. what a crock.

[Dutch]

How do people get so whacked out like this? A guy I work with told us in our weekly sit-down meeting that he was afraid the city would trample his bushes while installing sound proofing (against airplane noise, I guess). He is a devout, born again Christian, which is fine. But he prays about everything. He says he prayed about his bushes and found out it was okay to leave them be. And "thankfully", his bushes were unharmed by the workers.

I'm thinking, "You know, doesn't God have more important things to worry about rather than whether or not your shrubbery gets trampled?"

Whatever happened to praying for OTHER people? This dude is constantly praying about his own damned self...

[Chubby]

How do people get so whacked out like this? A guy I work with told us in our weekly sit-down meeting that he was afraid the city would trample his bushes while installing sound proofing (against airplane noise, I guess). He is a devout, born again Christian, which is fine. But he prays about everything. He says he prayed about his bushes and found out it was okay to leave them be. And "thankfully", his bushes were unharmed by the workers.

I'm thinking, "You know, doesn't God have more important things to worry about rather than whether or not your shrubbery gets trampled?"

Whatever happened to praying for OTHER people? This dude is constantly praying about his own damned self...

Uh oh, you're going to get all the religious people after you know. Their response - "God is all knowing and can multitask with the best vacuum tube computer"

[Easy Mac]

well
A) If you believe God told her to do it, she's not insane.
B) If she disobeyed God because she couldn't finish, she knew she was wrong and not insane.
C) God may have ordered Abraham to kill Isaac, but then God said nevermind. God has never had anyone killed (beside Jesus), so I highly doubt he would have allowed this. Something tells me God isn't a sick fuck.

if anything, she snapped because she was tired of homeschooling 3 kids everyday.

[yabanci]

I've read the gospels, and if Jesus' supposed words are to be believed, then god wouldn't be telling this woman to bash in the brains of her small children. Of course, Jesus' words mean very little in the christian religion. We've had 2000 years of killing in the name of christ, and I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

[Chubby]

if anything, she snapped because she was tired of homeschooling 3 kids everyday.
agreed.

[Dutch]

Uh oh, you're going to get all the religious people after you know. Their response - "God is all knowing and can multitask with the best vacuum tube computer"

heh, I'm God fearing, not God fearing people fearing......

[Axxon]

if anything, she snapped because she was tired of homeschooling 3 kids everyday.

Yet Adrea Yates, in the same state, was home schooling 5 against doctors recommendations and she was deemed sane. Why?

Maybe because God didn't talk to her?

[Easy Mac]

Yet Adrea Yates, in the same state, was home schooling 5 against doctors recommendations and she was deemed sane. Why?

Maybe because God didn't talk to her?
Or because the jurors were complete dumbasses in this case... you get what you pay for in this country, and we pay jurors too little.

[Axxon]

Or because the jurors were complete dumbasses in this case... you get what you pay for in this country, and we pay jurors too little.

I'd tend to agree that the jurors in both cases were dumbasses. If I was king for a day, Mr. Yates and Mrs. Laney would be sitting behind bars and Mrs. Yates would be getting mental help in a clinical setting to help her cope with the massive realization that she's going to encounter once she's strong enough to realize what she did. But that's just me.

[yabanci]

Or because the jurors were complete dumbasses in this case... you get what you pay for in this country, and we pay jurors too little.

pay is not going to make these people smarter. They'll just buy more hamburgers.

[sabotai]

I think people are focusing too much on the God angle.

In Yates case, she knew right from wrong (or so the evidence showed), in this case this woman didn't know right from wrong (according to the several experts who testified). That's the difference, and according to Texas law, the ONLY difference that matters since Texas defines insanity as a plea as someone who can not determine right from wrong.

[Easy Mac]

I think people are focusing too much on the God angle.

In Yates case, she knew right from wrong (or so the evidence showed), in this case this woman didn't know right from wrong (according to the several experts who testified). That's the difference, and according to Texas law, the ONLY difference that matters since Texas defines insanity as a plea as someone who can not determine right from wrong.
She stopped killing the last one, how could that not show she knew right from wrong?

[sabotai]

Ugh....I wasn't ARGUING it, I was just stating what was said in the two trials.

[Axxon]

I think people are focusing too much on the God angle.

In Yates case, she knew right from wrong (or so the evidence showed), in this case this woman didn't know right from wrong (according to the several experts who testified). That's the difference, and according to Texas law, the ONLY difference that matters since Texas defines insanity as a plea as someone who can not determine right from wrong.

Well, to refresh my memory I looked it up and Yates used the God defense too. Still, she was deemed mentally ill by the prosecuting attorney.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/10.html?sect=11

Dr. Park Dietz, in from TAG, his threat assessment firm in California, was a rebuttal witness after the defense presented its case. Much was made in the media about the fact the Resnick and Dietz were once again head to head. They had been on opposite sides of several other high-profile cases and Dietz usually won the day. His forte was to make complicated psychological issues simple for juries, and in the Yates case he used a Power Point presentation to do so. While he admitted that Andrea was seriously ill, possibly even schizophrenic, he also insisted that she had nevertheless known that what she was doing was wrong.

Maybe you're right or maybe it's just the climate of the day. Hard to say but she was deemed seriously ill, even schizophrenic but she knew right from wrong but this woman didn't. I don't know.

[sterlingice]

How do people get so whacked out like this? A guy I work with told us in our weekly sit-down meeting that he was afraid the city would trample his bushes while installing sound proofing (against airplane noise, I guess). He is a devout, born again Christian, which is fine. But he prays about everything. He says he prayed about his bushes and found out it was okay to leave them be. And "thankfully", his bushes were unharmed by the workers.

I'm thinking, "You know, doesn't God have more important things to worry about rather than whether or not your shrubbery gets trampled?"

Whatever happened to praying for OTHER people? This dude is constantly praying about his own damned self...
% Marge isn't convinced the Reverend was all that helpful. Lovejoy
% brushes her off as being too idealistic. He tells Marge about what
% happened to him after he graduated from seminary school. "The Sixties
% were long over and people were once again ready to feel bad about
% themselves," he says.
%
% Flash back to the mid-Seventies, as a younger Reverend drives to his
% new church assignment. He barely has time to set up his office when
% he gets his first customer -- Ned Flanders.

Flanders: Reverend, I'm, uh, I'm afraid something terrible has happened.
Lovejoy: Well, sit down and rap with me brother, that's what I'm here for.
Flanders: {sits} I was talked into doing a dance called "The Bump," but my hip slipped and my ... my buttocks came into contact with the ... buttocks of another young man.
Lovejoy: {pause} I ... see. {voice-over} Then the calls began.
{dissolve to shot of the Reverend at the dinner table, on the phone with Flanders}
Flanders: Well, I, I think I may be coveting my own wife. {cut to shot of Reverend playing with a small train set}
I'm meek but, I could probably stand to be meeker. {cut to shot of the Lovejoys in Paris} I, I ... I think I may have swallowed a toothpick.
Lovejoy: Finally, I just stopped caring. Luckily, by then it was the Eighties, and no one noticed.

SI

[Jon]

Well, to refresh my memory I looked it up and Yates used the God defense too. Still, she was deemed mentally ill by the prosecuting attorney.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/10.html?sect=11



Maybe you're right or maybe it's just the climate of the day. Hard to say but she was deemed seriously ill, even schizophrenic but she knew right from wrong but this woman didn't. I don't know.

The difference between the Yates case and this one is the legal standard. Being mentally ill does not necessarily make you insane for purposes of committing a crime, not in Texas or anywhere else (I believe) for that matter. It just happens that Texas uses a standard that is no longer used by most states (understanding the difference between right and wrong). Most states now use a standard that involves whether the defendant had the capacity to understand the nature of his or her actions (that it was criminal). Several other jurisdictions also have a "guilty but mentally ill standard" which means that the person is guilty but needs mental health treatment. Not many states have this option (Texas does not) but states such as kentucky, georgia, pennsylvanai, and utah do (to name a few).

(source: Michael Perlin, Mental Health Law, at 860-64).

[clintl]

When all five psychiatrists who examined her (the 2 prosecution psychiatrists, the 2 defense psychiatrists, and the neutral one appointed by the judge) all came to the conclusion that she was insane, how do you expect a verdict other than the one the jury came to? I can't believe the prosecution even took the case to trial, given their own experts' conclusions. It was a waste of everyone's time.

[Desnudo]

Wow, that is shocking. I had less sympathy for her than Mrs. Yates actually but this verdict made sense.

I did offend some of the ladies I work with though. I mentioned that if God tells you to do something what can you do?

One said God wouldn't tell you to do this but I said he told Abraham to kill Isaac.

That went ok then one kept saying "God didn't tell her to do that."

I kept asking "how do you know" but she kept repeating herself. Finally I said "what gets me is that christians have no doubt that centuries ago God entered a burning bush and told Moses what to do but let someone today say that God told them something and you can't accept that it's possible."

That ended that conversation. :(

I still don't get it. I'm not saying that God did tell her this but it's equally as likely as any of God's other appearances.

Since no one is claiming that she had any other motive except hearing the word of God how quick the believers are to disregard her and say she was crazy. I don't know but I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. God works in mysterious ways after all.

That's an interesting conversation to have at work.

[Desnudo]

When all five psychiatrists who examined her (the 2 prosecution psychiatrists, the 2 defense psychiatrists, and the neutral one appointed by the judge) all came to the conclusion that she was insane, how do you expect a verdict other than the one the jury came to? I can't believe the prosecution even took the case to trial, given their own experts' conclusions. It was a waste of everyone's time.

So the prosecutor can look tough on crime and get a nice fat salary when he goes private.

[Tekneek]

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
But his [Lot's] wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
-- Genesis 19: 24-26 (KJV)

If this wasn't God, who was The Lord? And was this not killing people? Perhaps you can be turned into a pillar of salt and still be alive?

[Tekneek]

God killed a whole lot of people and creatures here :

16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [1] , [2] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

[Tekneek]

I'm not sure if God killed anybody here, but he certainly was intending to hurt them...

Exodus 9
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt-on men and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt." 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt; 24 hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. 25 Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields-both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree.

[Tekneek]

God kills more people and animals :

Exodus 12
29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

[Tekneek]

Numbers 11
33 But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.

[Tekneek]

Numbers 16
27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [1] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.

[Tekneek]

Numbers 16
35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

[Tekneek]

I got a little carried away, but I think my point has been made. God has reportedly killed quite a few people. Why is it unreasonable that he would order the deaths of a few more?

[Bosco]

I got a little carried away, but I think my point has been made. God has reportedly killed quite a few people. Why is it unreasonable that he would order the deaths of a few more?


Because the Bible is full of shit.

[sabotai]

flame war in 3....2....1

[Axxon]

That's an interesting conversation to have at work.

They are used to me by now. :)

[Axxon]

Perhaps you can be turned into a pillar of salt and still be alive?

Yes, indeed you can but you'll have ridiculously high blood pressure.

[Tekneek]

Because the Bible is full of shit.

Hahah. I'm wondering whether you are a Christian or not, then. Any Christian should believe fully that God does kill, that God orders killing, and that it could happen again. After all, their main Christian book details, at great length, the death and destruction that God has brought against human beings.

[Axxon]

Hahah. I'm wondering whether you are a Christian or not, then. Any Christian should believe fully that God does kill, that God orders killing, and that it could happen again. After all, their main Christian book details, at great length, the death and destruction that God has brought against human beings.

That's all fine and good but I like my way of posing it better. :)

And it was a lot shorter too.

[Bosco]

Hahah. I'm wondering whether you are a Christian or not, then. Any Christian should believe fully that God does kill, that God orders killing, and that it could happen again. After all, their main Christian book details, at great length, the death and destruction that God has brought against human beings.

I believe in God, but not in any particular religion. Anyone who believes the Bible is meant to be taken literally has a few screws loose.

[Tekneek]

I believe in God, but not in any particular religion. Anyone who believes the Bible is meant to be taken literally has a few screws loose.

And so comes down the foundations that the organized Christian religion is based on. ;)

I don't know whether God exists or not, but if the God portrayed in the Holy Bible is the real one, then I'm not really interested.

[Chubby]

Perhaps you can be turned into a pillar of salt and still be alive?

Why was it always salt? Why didn't anyone ever get turned into pepper then they would make everyone sneeze...

[Axxon]

Why was it always salt? Why didn't anyone ever get turned into pepper then they would make everyone sneeze...

Because Marco Polo hadn't invented pepper yet silly.

[Chubby]

Because Marco Polo hadn't invented pepper yet silly.

Oh, that's why I asked. Now I know :D

[wig]

What if God did tell her to do it?

[Chubby]

What if God did tell her to do it?

What if god did tell Atta to fly a plane into the twin towers?

[Axxon]

What if God did tell her to do it?

Then at the very least he should have chipped in for the lawyer IMHO.

[Axxon]

What if god did tell Atta to fly a plane into the twin towers?

Did he then say "Atta boy, Mohammed!" ?

[wig]

What if god did tell Atta to fly a plane into the twin towers?

It's possible.

[tucker342]

People get messages from god all the time, it's called hearing voices.

Knowing that it was in Texas, I'm surprised they didn't hang her.

[Tekneek]

It's possible.

We have a court that has essentially stuck its finger in God's eye and said we're going to legislate you out of the schools. We're going to take your commandments from off the courthouse steps in various states. We're not going to let little children read the commandments of God. We're not going to let the Bible be read, no prayer in our schools. We have insulted God at the highest levels of our government. And then we say, "Why does this happen?"
Well, why it's happening is that God Almighty is lifting his protection from us.
-- Pat Robertson, 9/13/2001

[Chubby]

The bible can be read in school right along with the koran and any other religious texts that are desired to be read. Except, that will never happen since the religous zealots in this country only push for christianity to be shoved onto our children.

[Easy Mac]

I got a little carried away, but I think my point has been made. God has reportedly killed quite a few people. Why is it unreasonable that he would order the deaths of a few more?
god killing people is completely different from God ORDERING someone to kill people, which is what the woman claimed. AFAIK, God has never ordered anyone to kill someone and let the person go through with it.

[Tekneek]

god killing people is completely different from God ORDERING someone to kill people, which is what the woman claimed. AFAIK, God has never ordered anyone to kill someone and let the person go through with it.


Numbers 31
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Deuteronomy 7
2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [1] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Deuteronomy 20
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

Deuteronomy 20
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Joshua 10
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD , the God of Israel, had commanded.


----

This one is particularly relevant :

Judges 14
19 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house.

[yabanci]

why don't you quote Christ? Or are you an orthodox Jew?

[Tekneek]

why don't you quote Christ? Or are you an orthodox Jew?

We're talking about God, not Jesus Christ.

[yabanci]

If christ is your lord and savior, maybe you should focus on what he supposedly said insted of burying your head in the Tanakh. Or else reject him. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

[Chubby]

We're talking about God, not Jesus Christ.


So you aren't christian.

[Axxon]

If christ is your lord and savior, maybe you should focus on what he supposedly said insted of burying your head in the Tanakh. Or else reject him. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

Your point has nothing whatsoever to do what's being discussed. I'm happy for your beliefs but you should really try to keep up with the discussion. The point is that the woman claimed GOD told her to kill her kids. Not Jesus but the BIG G. Easy said that GOD had never told anyone to kill and let them do it. Tekneek is showing that to be false. It's that simple. Personal beliefs are irrelevant and Tekneek is correct as far as the bible is concerned.

[Axxon]

So you aren't christian.

Last I checked the old testament is still part of the christian bible so what's your point???

[Tekneek]

So you aren't christian.

Are you saying that Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God, and not God's son? That Jesus Christ was doing stuff as God before he was born?

[Chubby]

I'm in shock that this thread has turned into bible thumping.

[Chubby]

Are you saying that Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God, and not God's son? That Jesus Christ was doing stuff as God before he was born?
I'm saying that once again, you have confirmed my belief that some christians on this board feel that they need to quote scripture and pound the pulpit at every chance they get.

[Axxon]

Are you saying that Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God, and not God's son? That Jesus Christ was doing stuff as God before he was born?

It really doesn't matter though. Unless christians totally invalidate the God of the old testament then you've proven your point. If they are denying that the God of the old testament is indeed God then what's all the fuss about the ten commandments all about???

[Axxon]

I'm in shock that this thread has turned into bible thumping.

Yep, a thread with the term "God's word" in it becomes a religious one. It is a huge shocker. Who'd a thunk it??

[Tekneek]

It really doesn't matter though. Unless christians totally invalidate the God of the old testament then you've proven your point. If they are denying that the God of the old testament is indeed God then what's all the fuss about the ten commandments all about???

Very good point, of course. I await the clarification. :)

[Axxon]

I'm saying that once again, you have confirmed my belief that some christians on this board feel that they need to quote scripture and pound the pulpit at every chance they get.

Who are you talking about?? I'm really lost. A minute ago you're saying he's not a christian now he's a bible thumper. I don't get it.

[Chubby]

let's play a game, count the # of posts quoting scripture.

i've already said i'm not anything religous wise, i'm spiritual.

[Tekneek]

let's play a game, count the # of posts quoting scripture.

i've already said i'm not anything religous wise, i'm spiritual.

I am using scripture to support that God has killed lots of people, and to refute the claim that God never ordered the murder of another person.

[Axxon]

let's play a game, count the # of posts quoting scripture.

i've already said i'm not anything religous wise, i'm spiritual.

Yeah, great. So am I but this is NOT about religion per se. It's about the woman using God as a defense. One can be an athiest and use the same posts. I was the first one on this thread to speculate how christians could accept that centuries ago God entered burning shrubbery but not that he may have told this woman to kill her kids.

Tekneek was then showing that God in the bible had ordered people to kill quite often. None of the discussion shows one bit about how I or Tekneek feels about religion, it's simply an exercise in reading the bible. I think you're reading way too much into it.

[sabotai]

I think you're reading way too much into it.

Reading too much into something someone posts...that'd be a first here on FOFC. :D

[Chubby]

And I maintain my opinion that anyone that claims god told them to kill their 3 children MUST be insane.

[Axxon]

Reading too much into something someone posts...that'd be a first here on FOFC. :D

:D

Ok, but at least read the right things into it. :)

[Axxon]

And I maintain my opinion that anyone that claims god told them to kill their 3 children MUST be insane.

I'm still trying to find out where we disagree. How do you feel about Andrea Yates??

[Chubby]

I'm still trying to find out where we disagree. How do you feel about Andrea Yates??


Well I haven't followed either case to really be able to say with conviction or w/e but... they both killed their kids, one claimed god told her to do so they other said she didn't know what she was doing (i guess, correct me if i'm wrong).

they both shouldn't see the light of day for a long, long time. if it can be proven that the one REALLY thought god told her then she should be in a mental institution. the other, i thought she either claimed innocence or something, she should be in jail for life.

the difference is the state laws, in my kingdom they'd both be locked up for life regardless of where it is (jail, institution, w/e).

[Axxon]

Well I haven't followed either case to really be able to say with conviction or w/e but... they both killed their kids, one claimed god told her to do so they other said she didn't know what she was doing (i guess, correct me if i'm wrong).

they both shouldn't see the light of day for a long, long time. if it can be proven that the one REALLY thought god told her then she should be in a mental institution. the other, i thought she either claimed innocence or something, she should be in jail for life.

the difference is the state laws, in my kingdom they'd both be locked up for life regardless of where it is (jail, institution, w/e).

Andrea also claimed God told her to kill her kids. Check my post earlier in the thread.

[Chubby]

Andrea also claimed God told her to kill her kids. Check my post earlier in the thread.

then they should both be in the loony bin forever.

[Chubby]

of course, it could just be their "defense" in hope of winning sympathy from jurors. but if they truely think that then into the asylum they go. if it's a legal ploy then into jail for life they go.

[Tekneek]

I agree with you guys. I do wonder, though, how it is ok for people to say God told them to build something, or God helped them do something, as long as it is a result we don't really mind? Aren't all claims that God told you to do something bordering a little on insanity, or just when God tells you to do something we think is bad?

[Axxon]

of course, it could just be their "defense" in hope of winning sympathy from jurors. but if they truely think that then into the asylum they go. if it's a legal ploy then into jail for life they go.

That is inconsistant with:


And I maintain my opinion that anyone that claims god told them to kill their 3 children MUST be insane.


;)

[Chubby]

I agree with you guys. I do wonder, though, how it is ok for people to say God told them to build something, or God helped them do something, as long as it is a result we don't really mind? Aren't all claims that God told you to do something bordering a little on insanity, or just when God tells you to do something we think is bad?

I would agree with that, if god tells suzy to build a church then people cheer. if they tell her to slaughter 10 people then they call her crazy.


then again who said people make sense all the time.

[Axxon]

I agree with you guys. I do wonder, though, how it is ok for people to say God told them to build something, or God helped them do something, as long as it is a result we don't really mind? Aren't all claims that God told you to do something bordering a little on insanity, or just when God tells you to do something we think is bad?

That was my original point a long, long time ago. :)

[mking]

"Viewpoint of a local"
I am sure what I say would not be endorsed by anyone else in this city, but at least no children or animals were harmed during the stating of this opinion.

I live in the city of Tyler, Texas where this event and trial occurred. It is not surprising to me that this church-going, god-fearing nutcase did something as 'insane' as bashing her kids heads in with rocks. To me it is just part of the disease called religion.

This of course is an extreme example of what these religious nutcases do. Not everyone bashes in heads, but like I said, nothing that a lot of these local bible-belters do surprises me. You just live with their ignorance, their prejudices, and their abuse of whatever their vision of 'god' is.

Back to the case. I believe she is insane. No two ways about it. However, I also think she should be put to death. Preferably yesterday. I resent having to have 1 cent of my money going towards her upkeep.

That's the short opinion.

[wig]

I think God really did tell her to do it.

[wig]

maybe

[Tekneek]

I think God really did tell her to do it.

God certainly has displayed a clear pattern of causing death and destruction. I would not put it past God to do it.

[revrew]

I really hesitate getting into this one. I'm watching Tek go on a crusade to prove God's violent nature, then a horrendous red herring: "God never commanded killing", and mking's "religion is evil" post and wondering, why do y'all hate Christianity with such blind devotion? And is it even possible to have a reasonable conversation with y'all?

Well, I can try.

Tek is right insofar as God both killing and commanding the killing of others. Of course, the same could be said for General Schwartzkopf, George Bush, and any number of other military or government leaders. And in the uprising and establishing of the theocracy of Israel, that's exactly what God was--the military and political leader of a nation. Therefore, there was military action, and in a legal sense, capital punishment. If you read God's history as the military and judicial leader of the nation of Israel you see him use both. Every instance listed so far (with the interesting exception of Abraham and Isaac), was an example of either warfare or capital punishment.

Important note: There is a distinction between "killing" and "murder". Some would say all warfare and/or capital punishment is murder. If that's your belief, there's little progress that we can make here. But to those who can make the distinction, you will find Tek's quoted passages are killing, not murder.

As for Abe and Isaac, that was a: based on a sacrificial system now no longer in place, and b: as was stated earlier, a test that did not end in the slaying of Isaac.

The Texas women had no basis for sacrificing a child (something God--after Abe--specifically decreed as wicked), had no authority to conduct warfare or carry out capital punishment. Therefore, unless God was doing something he hasn't done before (which is in itself theologically unlikely as near to impossible), they could not have been operating in response to God, but were either insane or committing murder.

Honestly. A small dose of information or understanding is all it takes to diffuse the venom of incredulity, ridicule, intolerance, and judgmentalism displayed by the anti-Christites on this board. Guys, you don't have a justified basis for this nastiness. Back off.

[wig]

I don't see how this is different than Jesus or Moses hearing "God's voice".

[druez]

well
A) If you believe God told her to do it, she's not insane.
B) If she disobeyed God because she couldn't finish, she knew she was wrong and not insane.
C) God may have ordered Abraham to kill Isaac, but then God said nevermind. God has never had anyone killed (beside Jesus), so I highly doubt he would have allowed this. Something tells me God isn't a sick fuck.

if anything, she snapped because she was tired of homeschooling 3 kids everyday.

Bullcrap, ummm saddam and gamora?

[druez]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/children.slain/index.html

Mom who killed on God's word is not guilty
Jury rules she was insane when she bludgeoned her 3 children
Saturday, April 3, 2004 Posted: 10:11 PM EST (0311 GMT)



Deanna Laney leaves the courtroom after closing arguments in her trial Saturday.

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(CNN) -- A woman who claimed God ordered her to bash in the heads of her sons was acquitted of all charges by reason of insanity Saturday after a jury determined she did not know right from wrong during the killings.

A jury found that Deanna Laney was legally insane May 9 when she killed her two older sons, ages 6 and 8, in the front yard and left the youngest, now 2, maimed in his crib. Laney, 39, would have received an automatic life sentence had she been convicted of capital murder.

Laney broke into tears as the verdict was read. Her husband, Keith Laney, sat solemnly with his head down. A few jurors cried and struggled to maintain their composure.

State law allows Laney to be committed to a maximum security state hospital. Medical evaluations will dictate when she will be released. She will remain at the Smith County Jail until a hearing regarding her transfer.

Defense attorney Tonda Curry said the verdict doesn't mean Laney escaped punishment.

"Now and for the rest of her life, the punishment and torment that's going on in her own head is more significant and more damaging to her than anything the criminal justice system could have done, other than death," Curry said.

All five mental health experts consulted in the case, including two for the prosecution and one for the judge, concluded that a severe mental illness caused Laney to have psychotic delusions that rendered her incapable of knowing right from wrong during the killings -- the standard in Texas for insanity.

Smith County District Attorney Matt Bingham said had no regrets about taking the case to trial.

"This is a case that the citizens of this county needed to make the decision on," he said.

Jurors deliberated about seven hours before reaching their verdict in the deaths of 8-year-old Joshua and 6-year-old Luke, and the beating of Aaron.

Defense attorneys argued that insanity was the only reason why a deeply religious mother who homeschooled her children would kill two of them and maim another without so much as a tear.

"There was no crying," Curry said. "She was insane. There is no other answer."


Aaron, left, Luke and Joshua Laney are shown in this undated family photograph.
Psychiatrists testified that Laney believed she was divinely chosen by God -- just as Mary was chosen to bear Christ -- to kill her children as a test of faith and then serve as a witness after the world ended. In a videotape played at her trial, Laney said she saw her youngest son play with a spear, hold a rock and squeeze a frog, and took them all as signs from God that she should kill her children.

In closing arguments earlier Saturday, prosecutors portrayed the killings last Mother's Day weekend as deceptively planned and coldly executed.

"It was graphic, it was horrific and it was brutal," Bingham told the jury.

Bingham pounded his fist in his hand as he recounted Joshua's killing: "He got strike after strike after strike on his head to the point that his brains were coming out of his head like liquid."

Prosecutors portrayed the killings as deceptively planned and coldly executed. They said that even if Laney believed she was doing right by God, she had to have known she was doing wrong by state law. Her first call, they pointed out, was to 911 to summon authorities.

The 911 tape was among the evidence jurors reviewed during deliberations. They also went over psychiatric testimony to resolve a disagreement over why Deanna Laney stopped beating Aaron, then 14 months old.

Psychiatrists testified that Laney couldn't finish killing the baby, and that she told God, "You're just going to have to do the rest." Prosecutors said that action indicated Laney knew right from wrong and that if she chose to disobey God's orders by not killing Aaron, she could have disobeyed his orders to kill the other two.

Bingham said Aaron, who lives with his father, suffered permanent injuries in the attack.


I have tried to come to grips with the whole insanity plea thing. I have family members who have spent some time in mental institutions. I still can not help feeling that this lady got away with murder. I agree with the defense lawyer who says that the torment of the incident should torture Laney for the rest of her life. The cynical side of me just is not too sure. Either way this is a sad case :(


What if god knew those 3 children were going to grow up and be devil spawn or future hitlers? Maybe he told her to make the ultimate sacrafice and slay her children to prevent greater evils?

Maybe god isn't real and all devout christians are a bit loony?

Maybe god is real and this chick is just a physco, not to mention physco's should be wacked. You still killed, so you should be put to death.

Maybe god was having issues trying to decide if he was old school, old testimate god or new school kind new testimate god and forgot which day it was then remembered the old days and ordered the slayings...

Maybe anyone that devouted to religion needs their head examined and we shouldn't wait for someone to be killed before it happens.

[Butter]

why do y'all hate Christianity with such blind devotion? And is it even possible to have a reasonable conversation with y'all?

Why do you love Christianity with such blind devotion? I mean, that's not really much of a question. I realize that many Christians think that if non-believers just looked and studied about their religion that everyone would just come to their senses and follow Christ. It just doesn't work that way. It just doesn't.

And if God does exist, I agree with what Axxon said eons ago, why wouldn't he command her to kill her sons? Unfortunately, contact with God would be kinda hard to prove in a court of law, so they just went with the insanity plea, which probably made more sense to everyone. Believing that God has not contacted anyone on earth in 2,000 years when this is all (supposedly) his doing just seems a little far-fetched. But then, Christianity as a whole seems far-fetched to me.

I once asked my brother what he would do if God said "sell everything and move to Phoenix". He said he'd sell everything and move to Phoenix. I said, why? He said that if that's what God wanted him to do, he'd do it. He then asked me if I would. I said no. I said even if God contacted me, I probably wouldn't believe it was God anyway. Yep, that's right. I'm going to hell. :)

[revrew]

Why do you love Christianity with such blind devotion? I mean, that's not really much of a question. I realize that many Christians think that if non-believers just looked and studied about their religion that everyone would just come to their senses and follow Christ. It just doesn't work that way. It just doesn't.

**after reading my own post below, I felt it necessary to clarify: the use of "you" below does not refer to Butter, specifically, but to those in general who engage in the various behaviors described***

I understand loving with blind devotion. What I don't understand (actually, I do, I'm just pointing it out), is why hate? (or if you prefer: mock, judge, scorn, etc.) Just as judgmental, derisive Christians discredit their faith and their God, so does the level of derision aimed at God and his self-proclaimed followers on this board discredit those that spew it. I don't have to do a Church Lady "shame on you"--because you're shaming yourself.

As for the rest of the paragraph I quoted above, I agree with Butter. I don't think anyone "comes to their senses" and follows Christ. It doesn't work that way. People come to faith and follow Christ, and there's a big difference.

What I'm trying to point out is that if people came to their senses, there wouldn't be this mockery and derision. I asked the question, "why do you hate?" There are no good reasons for hate. Only fear and insecurity and pain and unforgiveness over past experiences. And therefore, how would your hate be different from that of those who hate Jews? Or Muslims? Take "Christian" out of some of the posts on this board, subsitute Jew, and bragadocioussss wouldn't be the only Nazi banned from the board.

I understand criticism of Christians; it's often warranted. I understand questions; Christianity can be confusing. I understand choosing not to believe in it; it's a difficult choice. But mocking and deriding and slamming and scoffing, judging and lashing and hating? Is that really the kind of people you want to be??

If I start doing that kind of crap toward other people's faiths or gods or friends, somebody slap me.

[revrew]

Oh, man, is my trout twisted sideways in the rectum today...
I think I need to get out of this thread before I say something I'll regret.

[Butter]

But mocking and deriding and slamming and scoffing, judging and lashing and hating? Is that really the kind of people you want to be??

It's easier to mock that which you do not understand than to attempt to understand it.

I have long since come to terms with the fact that I will never be a Christian. My wife is. We've talked it out. She will always hope that I will become one, but probably knows in her heart I will not.

I had a lot more to say, but I'll just say this... the mocking does not come from one side only. To say or even imply that is wrong and ridiculous.

[Huckleberry]

This would all be solved if we would just execute all the crazy people, right? :)

[Butter]

This would all be solved if we would just execute all the crazy people, right? :)

Kill the white people
Yeah
But buy my record first...

[judicial clerk]

Has God killed anyone since Jesus died for our sins?

I think this lady should be sent to a mental hospital, but she should be there for the same length of time that a person would serve in prison for this crime. If she ever becomes sane, then transfer her to prison and let her finish up her sentence.

In my opinion, murdering your minor children is probably the worst crime that a human can commit. Any murder is bad of course, but those kids were murdered by the person who was supposed to care for and protect them.

[mking]

The "Jewish" version of mking's post
I live in the city of Tyler, Texas where this event and trial occurred. It is not surprising to me that this synagogue-going, god-fearing nutcase did something as 'insane' as bashing her kids heads in with rocks. To me it is just part of the disease called Judaism.

This of course is an extreme example of what these Jewish nutcases do. Not everyone bashes in heads, but like I said, nothing that a lot of these local Jews do surprises me. You just live with their ignorance, their prejudices, and their abuse of whatever their vision of 'god' is.

I really don't want to get into a war of words with you (which is just a miserable preamble to doing so), but your revising of what I wrote is so damn ignorant it is astounding.

Have you lived here? Do you know the people or culture of this place? I don't think so, and if I am wrong you must have been wearing your blindfold and earplugs during the experience.

It is ignoramuses such as yourself that give religion a bad name.

Actually, on 2nd thought, maybe you do live here.

[revrew]

Alright, mking. I'll let it go. Maybe you live near a branch-dividian compound or something. Maybe you're justified in the flaming rant of prejudice and hate you spilled out on the religious people of Tyler, Texas. Maybe you really are surrounded by cuckoo cult-y types that typically do crazy things like bash their children's heads in. If so, I expect we'll see more stories like this coming out of Tyler?

I'll even delete my prior post, just to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, honestly, I still doubt that defending this tirade of religious bigotry with "No, you don't understand! They're really like that!" to be a bit suspect. Your words were hate-filled, man. You want to say they're justified? Fine.

[Axxon]

I understand loving with blind devotion. What I don't understand (actually, I do, I'm just pointing it out), is why hate? (or if you prefer: mock, judge, scorn, etc.) Just as judgmental, derisive Christians discredit their faith and their God, so does the level of derision aimed at God and his self-proclaimed followers on this board discredit those that spew it. I don't have to do a Church Lady "shame on you"--because you're shaming yourself.



I'll speak from my perspective but first a little background information that I've posted before.

1. I don't consider religion in and of itself as a bad thing but I don't believe any one religion has a monopoly on being right. I think the fear that being thought wrong is what fuels holy wars, gets people killed, ostracized, ridiculed and gets me woken up on saturday morning so I won't have to go to hell.

2. I believe in a higher power and once was religious as well but the actions of religious people have driven that completely out of me. I just can't join a group that acts as I would not. I'm not talking about all christians but the more aggressive ones, who lets face it are the ones who get the attention.

I find it easy to poke fun at the dogmatic folks. I'd like to open their eyes. Don't feel bad, I won't kill you to save you nor will I bomb any buildings you are in, enslave you in the name of the bible, or torture you. I won't try to cleanse you from the face of the earth or legislate that only activities that I approve of can be done.

I'd have a harder time doing it, granted, if religions followed the doctrine that they preached but so many of them don't and when they don't where is the outcry from the faithful?? I don't see very much of it. Where is the massive outcry from the muslims about the extremists using their religion in a twisted way? Now and again you'll see a cleric or two say that they're wrong but fuck that. I'd be so mad I'd do far more. Where is the outrage when people are taking something you fundamentally believe to be the most important thing in your life and taking a crap on it to further their agenda??

Where is the outrage when Ann Coulter talks about forcing conversions among the muslims? I thought that crap went out with the inquisition. Worse, attack any of these people or even god forbid, disagree with them and you're suddenly a godless communist. Where are the good honest christians at times like these? People are mocking and abusing your beliefs to further their agendas and it's a) making you look guilty by association and b) driving folks away from God which is worse from an evangelical perspective which is supposed to be the big thing.

Why don't people rise up and say screw them. They don't speak for me. They aren't speaking as christians but as crackpots? Why not some serious self policing which is how it should be. Fight and take back some respect and surely you'll get it. Jesus was vocally critical of the churches in his day for forsaking God and he died for it but if you follow him then why not speak out when you see it is necessary?

Any group is going to be judged by it's most vocal components. That's a fact and it's far more important when the group is based on magic and miracles as religion is. Come on, burning bushes, risings from the dead, angels coming from heaven, a flood that covers the entire earth even though cultures far more ancient exist and don't cover it, an enslavement of Israelis that is never mentioned in the writings of the enslavers or the other nations around, oh and aside from the occasional taco or stained glass none of it has ever happened in over 2000 years. The list is long indeed, talk about suspension of disbelief.

But forget all that. Good philosophy and proper living doesn't require any of the stories to be real. Many of them were based on older stories anyway ( the virgin birth comes to mind - ever wonder why Matthew doesn't mention it? He has to prove the prophesy that Jesus descended from the line of David. It's hard to fit prophesy in when you're coopting other stories but again, I digress ). Rising from the dead, the flood, all older stories. Anyway, back to the point.

Jesus used parables. You didn't see anybody out looking for the samaritan did you? His followers, however don't see it this way. If we don't believe that what is written was 100% factual and that the book has NO MISTAKES because it was written by God ( even though pi != 3 but I digress ) our soul is forfeit and we're going to burn in the fires of hell for eternity. There's no middle ground.

Damn.

And you wonder how that sticks in peoples craws??

Have a blessed day. :)

[Bonegavel]

well

C) God may have ordered Abraham to kill Isaac, but then God said nevermind. God has never had anyone killed (beside Jesus), so I highly doubt he would have allowed this. Something tells me God isn't a sick fuck.

God did tell the Jews to slay every man woman and child in one of the lands they conquered. Of course they disobeyed. God has a bad track record with people listening to him. I see God as a walter middy-type. Poor guy.

[Bonegavel]

My serious 2 cents, God has a passage in the bible that tells christians that they must obey the law of their land in addition to his (revrew can probably whip this out).

[yabanci]

she's lucky she isn't black or hispanic.

[mking]

If Dylan participated in this forum, I am sure this is what he'd post:

Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God said, "No"--Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin', you better run"
Well, Abe said, "Where d'you want this killin' done?"
God said, "Out on Highway 61"

[Tekneek]

Therefore, unless God was doing something he hasn't done before (which is in itself theologically unlikely as near to impossible), they could not have been operating in response to God, but were either insane or committing murder.

Prior to "The Great Flood", did God ever drown everyone? I would say there is sufficient precedent that God will do things He has never done before, and they will be of the variety that will get everyone's attention.

By the way, I don't hate Christianity. I hate the contradictions displayed by Christians.

[yabanci]

......By the way, I don't hate Christianity. I hate the contradictions displayed by Christians.

As Gandhi put it, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."