Like We Need Another Reason To Piss People Off While On a Plane...

[Ksyrup]

(CNN) -- If you have tried to lean your seat back on a plane and find it will not budge, it is probably not a new airline plot to make flying even more uncomfortable, but a new gadget.

The plastic device wedges against the frame of the seat in front and allows you to stop passengers from reclining their chairs during a flight.

The novel widget, which can be bought on the Internet, may not only worry airlines, but could lead to a whole new era in air-rage.

A polite passenger with long legs might ask a reclining traveler to straighten up or ask the flight attendant for a bulkhead seat, other flyers just purchase the Knee Defender.

Its inventor claims business has been "manic" since its launch a few months ago. With a price tag of just under $15, the company now ships the device internationally.

"We have thousands of customers who have bought the Knee Defenders," creator Ira Goldman told CNN.

"We have also sold Knee Defenders to many older people, they indicate that they have sensitive knees and they had stopped flying because of concerns about reclining seats."

During one flight in the mid-1990s, the six foot three inch (191 cm) business traveler decided to take action after many seat-knee encounters.

"I noticed the way that tray tables and seats move relative to each other and realized that by placing something between them I could protect my knees," says Goldman.

He believes airlines do not give tall people enough space in economy class and was motivated to help those suffering from knee batterings.

If you use the "U" shaped bits of plastic, you can also download a "Knee Defender Courtesy Card" from the Web site, which explains to upset passengers in front that you are using the device to protect your knees.

"We do know that some airline staff have even bought Knee Defenders for when they fly as passengers," explains Goldman.

He also claims the device helps as a warning or safety device for laptop computer users in-flight when a seat is being reclined, or if space is needed for a child on your lap.

The new device has led airlines to consider passenger reclining privileges in-flight.

According to Business Traveller magazine, Northwest Airlines have banned the Knee Defender, saying that flyers have the right to recline seats. American Airlines have not banned it, but feel passengers also have this right.

According to the Times of London, the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) wants the Knee Defender banned on safety grounds.

The CAA told the Times that: "Anything that affects the seat could jeopardize safety. We may take action if people use it."

"Last year the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority stated that they may be used on aircraft other than during taxiing, takeoff, or landing," says Goldman.

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[Honolulu_Blue]

All praise the Knee Defender!! What a glorious idea and invention. I love it! Since moving to Belgium I have flown a lot of trans-Atlantic flights in coach. Nothing pisses me off more than the person reclining their chair completely the moment the plane takes off. I'm 6'4", it's freaking unbearable to sit like that for 7+ hours. If I see them reclining, I immediately raise my knees to try and prevent it. It doesn't work. Than I let out a loud groan, in hopes they will turn around and notice that I'm folded up. If they still recline, it's war. I knee the f*ck out that chair every chance I get. Everytime I get up to go to the bathroom, I shake the f*cker like a polaroid picture.

Hey, if someone is behind me I don't recline, simply of out respect and because I know how angry it makes me. I would much rather not be able to recline at all than have the person in front of me recline.

The only exception to this is the flight from the U.S. to Europe when the sole purpose is to sleep as much as possible. I don't mind people reclining back then. I take my Tylenol PM and hope to get as much sleep as possible. Granted, there is also some shrieking baby within 2 rows, but I do what I can.

Kneed Defender. Well done!

[wig]

That is brilliant.

[Honolulu_Blue]

That is brilliant.

Can write this down, please?

[JeeberD]

I read about that somewhere else, and I remember read that most airlines are beginning to ban it. If a flight attendent catches you using it they will confiscate it from you...

[rkmsuf]

Don't enable the seats to recline...problem solved...

If they can recline this is stupid and only will result in "incidents"...

[Yossarian]

I shake the f*cker like a polaroid picture.


If you do that, you'll ruin the picture.

[wig]

Can write this down, please?

This isn't write-worthy.

:)

[stevew]

I havent ever flown, but I cant understand why the airline thinks its okay for people to recline their seat into your freaking lap. This sounds like something I would definately pick up if I ever were to fly much.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If they can recline this is stupid and only will result in "incidents"...
Pretty much what I was thinking. although "incidents" was a bit milder than my first couple of thoughts

[Honolulu_Blue]

This isn't write-worthy.

:)

True enough. But at least you're right this time! That's gotta be write-worthy.

[KevinNU7]

I like having the knee excuse for seat upgrades, EMERGENCY ISLE HERE I COME!

[Draft Dodger]

a simple solution:

CRAM LESS SEATS ON THE FUCKING AIRPLANES

[cartman]

Reading things like this makes me truly appreciate that my company flies us in business class whenever we have long flights! I don't think I would have survived the past couple of years (over 300,000 miles) riding in coach.

[judicial clerk]

I foresee this device eventually making its way into the recent thread that discussed objects that doctors found shoved up peoples asses.

[Solecismic]

I'm pretty much at a point where I refuse to fly any more except in an emergency. I can't afford to go first class, and being 6-1, 215, I just don't have enough room in cattle herd class.

The last time I flew, I noticed something interesting. When the flight was at underway, the guy in front of me looked back. And since it wasn't a full flight, he moved over to the middle seat and reclined it. It was the first time I've ever seen someone behave in a courteous fashion on an airplane.

I'm like Honolulu. If the person in front of me keeps his seat forward, I try very hard not to touch it. But if he reclines, I'll knock it every chance I get.

American Airlines tried a campaign a couple of years ago to give people a little more leg room. But, they found it had no bearing on profits, and have just started putting more seats in again. People still decide on flights based completely on cost.

[Noop]

Jim so you are going to drop us some big news I see....


:)

noop

[Glengoyne]

Here Here!

Reclining your seat on a airplane shouldn't be considered a right. It should be considered a luxury. It is not just tall people, it is anyone who is utilizing their tray table. If you have ever had your laptop shoved around or a soda spilled, you are more than aware of that fact. I almost never recline my seat if there is someone behind me. If I need to sleep, and someone is back there I do it gently, and ask them politely to let me know if my reclining is a problem. There is a very short list of things that piss me off more than someone slamming their seat back into the reclined position in front of me.

[mgadfly]

and being 6-1, 215, I just don't have enough room in cattle herd class.

You have it good. I'm 6'4, 340 and my cost conscious wife has me crammed into a Southwest flight everytime we go somewhere. The current conflict is whether we should drive from Spokane to San Diego this summer, or fly.

I'm in favor of driving.

[Desnudo]

Complain to the airline for allowing the seats to recline. I don't usually recline myself and get annoyed when someone else does, but if you haven't noticed, a device is installed on the seat to allow it to do so. Have you ever thought about simply asking someone to put it back rather than kneeing and shaking their seat?

[ScottVib]

Have you ever thought about simply asking someone to put it back rather than kneeing and shaking their seat?

Yes I frequently ask. Unfortunately most people just say sorry and continue to crush my knees. If someone does it anyways and shoots me a dirty look when they hit my knees, say sorry I can't help being this tall, take it up with my parents.

I'm 6'4" I have a big problem when someone reclines more then a few degrees, without even trying my to put my knees in the small of the persons back, it just happens naturally that my lower legs are pinned between the seat and the floor. I can't move, can't work, can't read, and have zero comfort the entire flight, if your company is as cheap as mine is... you are already uncomfortable with zero shoulder room (my shoulders are too wide for most airline seats and they will only spring for the cheapest possible flight (hello Southwest cattle class)) and now can't do anything to help pass the time on a very long flight. So your in pain, and bored, and life royally sucks.

Out of respect for the people behind me, if there is someone in back of me I don't recline the seat beyond the point that I can tolerate and don't recline it at all if the person is close to my height or taller, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I personally find this device ingenious, maybe if the airlines notice an uptick of people using it, they'll realize there is money to be made by it (Besides it's got to be cheaper/easier to maintain a non-reclining seat then a recliner). I don't personally belive that people have the right to recline if it results in their seat being directly over the top of my body and my being unable to see the magazine that was sitting in my lap as I read it.

Taking it another direction: Why should anyone have the right to use one airline provided luxury (the reclining seat) at the expense of my using another airline provided luxury (the fold out table)? If the airlines are willing to protect the interests of passengers using one luxury, why not the other?

[Chubby]

Because the airlines are dumb.
See also - Discount airlines crushing traditional airlines.

[Desnudo]

Yes I frequently ask. Unfortunately most people just say sorry and continue to crush my knees.

Really? I find that absolutely amazing. Usually if I make a direct request of someone they are very accomodating.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe it's in the delivery...

ScottVib: Hey dork...cut me some slack man and move that f-ing seat.

Desnudo: Pardon me sir...there's 20 dollars in it for you if you raise your seat up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Somewhere in all this, it seems to me that it comes down to one person's "right" to recline vs another person's "right" to use their traytable, etc.

Problem is, I don't see either "right" as being greater than the other. And yes, before someone asks, that does indeed include the "right" not to have your knees squashed.

Presumably, both the recliner & the reclinee paid the same amount for their ticket, and as long as the seats are made capable of reclining, then I feel like the recliner has the right to make use of that function.

Should they? Or, in case somebody wonders, do I? No, not if it beats the bloody hell outta the passenger behind them. (exception to rule: if I'm reclining strictly to avoid being pounded by the reclined seat in front of me, all bets are off & it's every man for himself)

But AFAIC, even if I don't exercise my option to recline, I still have the bought-and- paid-for right to do so.

[sabotai]

You get what you pay for...it sucks but that's the nature of flying. If you want to fly comfortably, then you have to pay extra.

And just ot make it clear, I'm not making excuses for the recliners. They're assholes who should be thrown off the plane...in midflight. BUT...you get what you pay for.

[Desnudo]

You get what you pay for...it sucks but that's the nature of flying. If you want to fly comfortably, then you have to pay extra.

And just ot make it clear, I'm not making excuses for the recliners. They're assholes who should be thrown off the plane...in midflight. BUT...you get what you pay for.

I agree 100%. Considering you can fly from the US to London for <$500 it's hard to complain about anything. Also, there is that coach+ on British Airways overseas flights. I think Virgin Atlantic has the same. It's actually a quite reasonable fare.

Also, be careful about what airline you fly if you can. In my experience Delta has by far the worst leg room of any major carrier. They jam almost double the amount of rows on the same plane. Northwest would probably be second. UAL and Continental are both pretty decent.

[Desnudo]

Maybe it's in the delivery...

ScottVib: Hey dork...cut me some slack man and move that f-ing seat.

Desnudo: Pardon me sir...there's 20 dollars in it for you if you raise your seat up.

Actually it's more like:

Desnudo: Pardon me sir, but I don't like looking at the top of your wart ridden bald skull, would you mind moving forward before I lubricate your face with my beer?

[Rizon]

I travel cross country several times a year, and I have to recline my seat because of my bad back. Sitting straight up like that for hours on a cross country flight is a bitch and I gimp around for 2 days after.

Course, I'm also 6'1, yet have never had a problem with someone reclining their seat. I've had people recline while I was eating, and the tray doesn't move. I don't have this drastic loss of space when someone reclines. It's never bothered me a single bit.

I travel on whatever airline is the cheapest, so it's not that. I'm also the opposite of claustrophobic, so small spaces don't bother me at all. Maybe I'm just lucky enough to not have someone push their seat back all the way and/or slam it back really fast like a dick.

PS: Oh wait a minute, I know why. I never get seated around adults, just kids. Kids who jump up and down all over the plane like it's a jungle gym. So I guess it evens out. You guys get the reclining chair jerks, I get the jerk kids.

[Desnudo]

I travel cross country several times a year, and I have to recline my seat because of my bad back. Sitting straight up like that for hours on a cross country flight is a bitch and I gimp around for 2 days after.

Course, I'm also 6'1, yet have never had a problem with someone reclining their seat. I've had people recline while I was eating, and the tray doesn't move. I don't have this drastic loss of space when someone reclines. It's never bothered me a single bit.

I travel on whatever airline is the cheapest, so it's not that. I'm also the opposite of claustrophobic, so small spaces don't bother me at all. Maybe I'm just lucky enough to not have someone push their seat back all the way and/or slam it back really fast like a dick.

PS: Oh wait a minute, I know why. I never get seated around adults, just kids. Kids who jump up and down all over the plane like it's a jungle gym. So I guess it evens out. You guys get the reclining chair jerks, I get the jerk kids.

I've seen it all. I spent five years of my life flying on a weekly basis. Kids kicking your seat while the parent quietly reads right next to them. Kids pounding on their table so your seat shakes. Kids playing Gameboy without an earplug. Mothers changing diapers in their seat. Guys who don't fold the paper over so it hits the back of your head. Belligerent drunks threatening the flight attendant because they were shut off. People who seem to think that the top of your head rest is also a good armrest while they wait for the bathroom. People who never apologize for slamming you with their bags while walking down the isle. The list goes on and on.

I think what you see is a grand pyschology experiment. Stuff 250 people in a stuffy metal tube with no means of escape and some alcohol and see what happens.

The only thing I never saw consistently in coach was good looking women. Where do they all go? :)

[oykib]

The only thing I never saw consistently in coach was good looking women. Where do they all go? :)

They're all in first class eating ice cream sundaes with the chocolate syrup at the bottom of the bowl to facilitate better chocolate distribution.

[miami_fan]

a simple solution:

CRAM LESS SEATS ON THE FUCKING AIRPLANES

It is always the simple solutions that are so difficult for major coporations to comprehend :D

[kcchief19]

You have it good. I'm 6'4, 340 and my cost conscious wife has me crammed into a Southwest flight everytime we go somewhere.If I ever have to fly Southwest again it'll be too soon. Screw cost-consciousness. We were booking flights for a convention last year and my company was using Southwest because it was the cheapest. I went to my boss and told him I'd pay the difference to fly another airline. I feel like a prime steer everytime I fly SWA.

Luckily, he agreed that it was worth $25 bucks for me to not have to beat people over the headfor an emergency aisle seat and just reserve it with another airline.

Jon, I'd disagree that reclining your seat is a "right" that you receive with the purchase of a ticket. Look at the paperwork -- nowhere is that "right" expressed. Simply because a seat reclines does not mean I have a right to recline in that seat if it causes harm. Do I have the "right" to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater? And that's aside from the notion that my right to not have you bruise my knees outweighs your right to recline slightly.

If I were litigious, next time somebody reclined into me I'd sue. God bless America. :)

[sterlingice]

a simple solution:

CRAM LESS SEATS ON THE FUCKING AIRPLANES
Ayup. Then again, I don't have too many problems. I'm not exactly a small guy but not huge either at 6'2" 195 and the only time I had significant problems was flying Trans-Atlantic on the 747 sardine can when I was 13. If a 13yo doesn't fit then they have problems but the typical 737 or whatever I flew at Christmas gave me few problems.

But, this invention is just plain stupid. I have something that serves this same purpose. It's called a knee. And if the guy is really pushing his luck, leaned it back quite a bit, and ignored a polite request, he'd gets two size 13 shoes stuck in his lower back. But it's never come to that.

Then again, the simplest solution to try and get the emergency exit seat. Now that's legroom galore. And all the major airlines (sans Southwest) charge the exact same price for practically the same flight (one might leave at 6:15 vs one leaving at 6:45). So I just shop around until I find a flight where there's an empty emergency exit seat if I can. It's worth a half hour at the computer to be comfortable for 2+ hours in the air.

SI

[Anthony]

i recline all i want. my theory is if you don't like it, don't be such a poor bastard and spring for first class seats.

i'm a big guy, survival of the strongest i say. courtesy is for flushing toilets.

[Craptacular]

Then again, the simplest solution to try and get the emergency exit seat. Now that's legroom galore. And all the major airlines (sans Southwest) charge the exact same price for practically the same flight (one might leave at 6:15 vs one leaving at 6:45). So I just shop around until I find a flight where there's an empty emergency exit seat if I can. It's worth a half hour at the computer to be comfortable for 2+ hours in the air.


I thought they couldn't assign those until check-in, so they can verify that the person is able to handle the emergency duties. I've never actually tried it, but an old friend told me he asks for those every time, but that he had to do it at check-in. I usually try to sit away from the wings, for an unobstructed view.

[SunDancer]

It is always the simple solutions that are so difficult for major coporations to comprehend :D

Or maybe they see the simple solution of making the greatest profit. Actually, by cramping more seats, it lowers fare because they can spread the costs more with each additional seat. Or atleast thats the concept with lower-fare airlines.

[Sun Tzu]

courtesy is for flushing toilets.

Who'ing the what now?

[sterlingice]

I thought they couldn't assign those until check-in, so they can verify that the person is able to handle the emergency duties. I've never actually tried it, but an old friend told me he asks for those every time, but that he had to do it at check-in. I usually try to sit away from the wings, for an unobstructed view.
Maybe my memory is bad and the last time I flew I couldn't get one (not surprising since I was on booked flights at Thanksgiving) but the couple of times before that, I had gotten them. Maybe I did ask when I got there, but I thought I had gotten them online.

SI

[Axxon]

You want leg room? Try the left seat of a 767; I have. ;)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Another option for avoiding someone reclining in front of you is to get a seat on the bulkhead.

I'm not usually too thrilled about people reclining the whole way in front of me, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to tolerate it without any significant discomfort. I don't generally ask (or look behind me) when reclining, but then again, a) often I won't do it at all, it depends on whether I'm uncomfortable in the full upright position, and b) when I do, I try to recline only a short way (hopefully less than 1/3 of the travel of the seat, certainly no more than 1/2).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Look at the paperwork -- nowhere is that "right" expressed.
Although I don't have a ticket lying around handy to check, I have my doubts that there's any expressed "right" not for anyone to be comfortable on the flight either.

[Ksyrup]

The only thing I never saw consistently in coach was good looking women. Where do they all go? :)
That's the beauty of flying out of an airport that services a large university in a small town. Not only do the coeds typically not have enough money to fly first class, but the planes are so small, they don't even have a first class. Good times.

[rkmsuf]

That's the beauty of flying out of an airport that services a large university in a small town. Not only do the coeds typically not have enough money to fly first class, but the planes are so small, they don't even have a first class. Good times.

Fly here often?

[Ksyrup]

I take the weekly Tallahassee to Provo flight. Use up enough gas to fly to South America and back, too.

[rkmsuf]

I'd ask you if you are doing some stunt flying up there or something but you'll give me that look...

[Ksyrup]

Not since everything switched over to ball bearings...

[Desnudo]

I thought they couldn't assign those until check-in, so they can verify that the person is able to handle the emergency duties. I've never actually tried it, but an old friend told me he asks for those every time, but that he had to do it at check-in. I usually try to sit away from the wings, for an unobstructed view.

It depends on the airline. A lot of airlines allow it as long as you confirm that you can handle it.

[lighthousekeeper]

...this is stupid and only will result in "incidents"...

Relevant thread necromancy:



http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/08/flight_from_newark_diverted_after_fight_over_leg_room_report_says.html#incart_river

:lol:



edit: boo - relegated to fofc archives. at least i can entertain myself.

[Ben E Lou]

Moved per lhk request. No, I don't have "tons of free time," but when you include the link to the thread in your PM like you did, it takes less than 5 seconds to move the thread.
:thumbsup:

[Blackadar]

Nice thread necro.

I fly almost every week so I have to put up with air travel. I notice fewer and fewer people reclining their seats unless it's an overnight flight.

[Butter]

I'll recline the shit out of my seat. Since I'm 6'4", anything to gain a tiny bit of space is welcome. And I know I can't complain when someone does it to me, that's the chance you take.

[jeff061]

I'm 6'4" and I'll never recline due to all the hate I have towards the pricks in front of me reclining.

[jeff061]

Also, too be honest, I'm not sure how reclining improves overall space related comfort issues. Maybe if your head's hitting the ceiling, which I've run into on some Windows seats(still didn't recline).

[Lathum]

That is so odd that thay basically diverted to Chicago to kick them of the plane.

As far a reclining goes I usually only do it on a red eye or if the person in front of me does. Then is slowly go back, I hate the people who dive bomb.

And if you recline all bets are off for me controlling my children touching/ kicking/ etc...the back of your seat, you move closer to them on purpose its on you now.

[stevew]

Still haven't flown anywhere. Hopefully when i finally decide to fly I get next to the 98 year old man who won the lottery, 10,000 spoons, and a person on her cigarette break.

[Lathum]

Still haven't flown anywhere. Hopefully when i finally decide to fly I get next to the 98 year old man who won the lottery, 10,000 spoons, and a person on her cigarette break.

I find it odd a grown man has never flown anywhere.

[stevew]

I find it odd a grown man has never flown anywhere.

My family drove everywhere. I've always had jobs with little to no vacation.

[Blackadar]

Still haven't flown anywhere. Hopefully when i finally decide to fly I get next to the 98 year old man who won the lottery, 10,000 spoons, and a person on her cigarette break.

:thumbsup:

Just make sure you befriend the old man. He'll die the next day. And don't order the Chardonnay.

[PilotMan]

Couple of thoughts.

1) This wasn't me.

2) I generally don't recline unless I'm really tired really uncomfortable. Being tall I know I don't have much room and I try not to take it away from the person behind me. When I do I move very slowly so, and only what I need to get a little relief.

3) As far as I know this product isn't allowed on United. So if the passenger won't remove it per the FA instructions then he is in non-compliance and his travel is in jeopardy.

This whole incident is very interesting since the very same day the USA Today had this in the paper:

'Me first!': Why is selfish behavior on the rise? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/08/25/flight-etiquette-unruly-flier/14563699/)

[Blackadar]

Couple of thoughts.

1) This wasn't me.

2) I generally don't recline unless I'm really tired really uncomfortable. Being tall I know I don't have much room and I try not to take it away from the person behind me. When I do I move very slowly so, and only what I need to get a little relief.

3) As far as I know this product isn't allowed on United. So if the passenger won't remove it per the FA instructions then he is in non-compliance and his travel is in jeopardy.

This whole incident is very interesting since the very same day the USA Today had this in the paper:

'Me first!': Why is selfish behavior on the rise? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/08/25/flight-etiquette-unruly-flier/14563699/)

I like Chris Elliott, but it's simple as to why selfish behavior is on the rise. It's because travel providers and agencies have made the process so adversarial that many customers automatically are defensive before anything ever happens. Between pushy TSA agents trying to be bag Nazis to getting barked at incessantly at security checkpoints to airline policies (on everything from fees to overbookings to jamming too many rows into a plane) to their personnel often being rude, the whole thing sucks. People know it, dread it and patience is in short supply.

[DaddyTorgo]

Couple of thoughts.

1) This wasn't me.

2) I generally don't recline unless I'm really tired really uncomfortable. Being tall I know I don't have much room and I try not to take it away from the person behind me. When I do I move very slowly so, and only what I need to get a little relief.

3) As far as I know this product isn't allowed on United. So if the passenger won't remove it per the FA instructions then he is in non-compliance and his travel is in jeopardy.

This whole incident is very interesting since the very same day the USA Today had this in the paper:

'Me first!': Why is selfish behavior on the rise? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/08/25/flight-etiquette-unruly-flier/14563699/)

The one thing I'd disagree with from that article is
• Avoid problem areas. "Me first" travelers are passengers "with a narcissistic personality, who feel very grandiose, entitled and don't feel empathy for others," says Jeff Ball, the executive director of PCH Treatment Centers in West Los Angeles. Take a few steps back and yield to them to avoid a confrontation.

As long as I'm not on a business trip WITH clients I'll typically happily confront a "me first" passenger who is ruining my experience. If you "roll over" and let them keep being a bully then they'll never learn their lesson.

Obviously I need to be in the right like...frame of mind to engage in that confrontation though.

[Logan]

A quick weather issue in Chicago caused United to cancel my 12pm flight to LGA at 11:30am without so much as a warning that even a delay was coming. No email from them notifying me of the cancellation, and if I wasn't looking at the board when it happened, I wouldn't have known.

They also rebooked me on a 5pm flight tomorrow. Thankfully my travel agency through work fixed it, and it was nice getting that done with a 3 minute phone call while others waited in a 100 person customer service line.

Flying is great.

[PilotMan]

FWIW, I agree with some of that, but a lot of it is just how you approach the situation. We all have bad days and we all want flying to just happen like a clock but so much more goes into it.

Yeah, the TSA sucks. But you can't change that, so you have to adjust or else it's on you.

Yes, every airline has pissy FA's. Every single one. However, the majority of them are very good and try very hard. The airlines used to over staff the FA's (and will very rarely now) but mostly out of the pursuit of money have cut back to the FAA mandated minimum depending on how many seats there are. Combine that with the airlines moving toward squeezing as many seats as they can into little cans.

Last I think if you look at us culturally, from our electronics to our Beats and Bose headphones we are much less interactive with one another than we used to be. We isolate more and interact less, and when we do it's not always in the good way.

Plus on a plane with 185 people on it, there are probably 150 different travel plans, connections, good days, bad days, lost loved ones, and so on and on. We all aren't going to NY to see the Empire State Building. It's a much more complicated world. From my perspective you don't understand how hard I have it, therefore you suck and vice versa. If the airlines all had nice cushy seats you would still have this problem today.

[MacroGuru]

I rarely have issues with my flights. TSA is now no longer a problem with a KTN and breezing through Pre-check...

It's pretty much a painless situation anymore. In fact American just gave me complimentary Gold status until the end of the year while I am almost Gold with Delta, meanwhile I have yet to fly United this year.

My bigger pain in the ass with my traveling are hotels that force you to leave a card for incidentals. I never use them, never book in rooms that have mini-bars and my room is always prepaid to a master account, it's a pain in the ass and I hate giving them my card because they have charged the room charges to it before and then I am in a a 5-6 week hell of getting it fixed.

[jeff061]

The United/Chicago combination was spawned from the gates of hell.

[Lathum]

I still have huge issues with airlines overselling tickets. It is a flat out bait and switch.

As for the other annoyances of travel I have learned to deal wit hthem after flying so much. The occasional over zealous TSA agent will piss me off, but that is about it.

Reminds me of when I went to London a couple years ago. My SIL and BIL live there and were getting us at the airport so we didn't know their exact address. The customs guy was a raging prick that we didn't have the exact address of where we were staying and threatened to send us back to the US, claiming the US had done the same to several Brits. Took a lot for me to bite my tongue and take it from him.

[SteveMax58]

I still have huge issues with airlines overselling tickets. It is a flat out bait and switch.

I'd have less of a problem with this if they didn't ALSO decide to make my ticket nonrefundable or charge massive fees for changing.

I'm good with 1 or the other (no refunds or no overbooking) but its nonsense that it works both ways for them.

[Blackadar]

I still have huge issues with airlines overselling tickets. It is a flat out bait and switch.

On my flight to DC this week, US Air overbooked the flight and needed two passengers to disembark before they would take off. They were holding the flight hostage until two people volunteered to take their crappy $300 voucher and some vague agreement that the passengers would be able to get on the 7AM flight the next morning. Considering that TSA rules would suggest that they owed the removed passengers significantly more compensation for being bumped, I just sat there and shook my head.

[chadritt]

I remember in college I got a ton of free flights due to overbooking, I was able to make sure I was one of the first ones to the desk everytime they asked for someone to give up their seat.I remember giving up my seat two or three times in one day on my flight home from thanksgiving, of course i was really lucky that there were a ton of flights from Atlanta to Boston every day.

[Draft Dodger]

I like Chris Elliott, but it's simple as to why selfish behavior is on the rise. It's because travel providers and agencies have made the process so adversarial that many customers automatically are defensive before anything ever happens. Between pushy TSA agents trying to be bag Nazis to getting barked at incessantly at security checkpoints to airline policies (on everything from fees to overbookings to jamming too many rows into a plane) to their personnel often being rude, the whole thing sucks. People know it, dread it and patience is in short supply.

this. one thousand times this.

[MacroGuru]

On my flight to DC this week, US Air overbooked the flight and needed two passengers to disembark before they would take off. They were holding the flight hostage until two people volunteered to take their crappy $300 voucher and some vague agreement that the passengers would be able to get on the 7AM flight the next morning. Considering that TSA rules would suggest that they owed the removed passengers significantly more compensation for being bumped, I just sat there and shook my head.

Delta gets into an auction...they will generally announce a price, starting at like $300...no one takes it...they bump it to $400, no one takes it...$500 they generally get their bites.

[RainMaker]

While I think air travel has it's annoyances, I still put most of the blame on narcissistic passengers. It's not just in air travel, but everywhere these days. People think the world revolves around them.

Haven't had any big issues but I did have some guy in sandals put his bare feet up on the seat in front of him. Like resting on the folded up tray that someone would be eating off of at some point. I thought about saying something but can't imagine why someone would find it appropriate to have their barefeet up on a plane sitting next to people.

I've also had a couple trips where I upgraded to first or business class. On one of those a family brought their young kid who proceeded to cry the entire flight. And one who brought a gigantic dog that smelled terrible. The lady was nice and I asked her about the dog in conversation since she was across the aisle and it was for her "anxiety". I'm seeing a lot more people bringing dogs on planes these days.

[Glengoyne]

LOL... Mrs. Glen here...

Two weeks from today, I will be traveling by air to acquire our new puppy!

So, yeah, I will be traveling with a dog as well! One that is fresh from the litter, AND doesn't know me yet! Don't travel from Portland on the 9th!

[Dr. Sak]

I was flying home to Pittsburgh from Charlotte today and watched a passenger yell at the gate employee cause she said she was suppose to go to BOSTON not Pittsburgh and when the gate employee politely told her that she is connecting through Pittsburgh to Boston the passenger still didnt get it and got louder. It took the gate employee 15 minutes to explain this to her.

That same person on the plane was seated in the back and shoved her way to the front when the plane landed, instead of waiting her turn. It wasn't a quick connection, she had 90 minutes. This practice I really don't understand...just let the plane debark from front to back. You just make it worse when you act like she did.

[EagleFan]

If I see someone doing that I make sure to get my butt up and in the aisle. Then let everyone in my row out ahead of me.

[DaddyTorgo]

If I see someone doing that I make sure to get my butt up and in the aisle. Then let everyone in my row out ahead of me.

Yup!

[Solecismic]

I am convinced that if any of you ever see my name outside of this forum, it will be because I've been arrested for getting into a fight on an airplane.

I'm not sure why the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to airlines and their customers.

[Lathum]

If I see someone doing that I make sure to get my butt up and in the aisle. Then let everyone in my row out ahead of me.

Me too and I'm a pretty big guy who is tatted up and can look mean. Have had words a few times with people behind me.

[Lonnie]

One of the few reasons I strive to get status on an airline these days is to get the prefered seating up front with the extra legroom.

I fly almost weekly and never recline unless the seat behind me is empty. I truly hate the person that slams the seat back, especially when I just got my laptop up and it gets caught under the tray table latch and almost destroys the screen.

[Dutch]

Doesn't "not reclining" add the problem? If everybody reclined wouldn't that be the same amount of space as if nobody reclined? And one's a whole lot more comfortable than the other...oh well. I normally fly overseas flights so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask and on the short flights I guess I don't recline, but anything from 1-4 hours...man, I'm still reclining for everything but take-off, meal, and landing. Mostly because the person in front of me went full recline first though. I've never really had a problem with it...but maybe just being 5'10" rules me out of the complaint department altogether.

[PilotMan]

Using a knee defender is a dick move.

Each person should be free to recline or not recline as they wish.

I'm not sure what Jim's comment means other than he thinks that Airlines hold the customers hostage.

Look I would much rather drive than fly on a vacation. It's more relaxing, I'm in charge of my schedule and it's way easier to deal with kids.

Having said that. Driving on a road at 75mph is no comparison to flying in a plane at 550mph. The public just doesn't understand the massive undertaking it is to make everything come together for just one flight.

[Butter]

I disagree... I understand the massive undertaking that it is.

I also understand how much of a fucking hassle it is and how uncomfortable it is anymore.

[jeff061]

The public just doesn't understand the massive undertaking it is to make everything come together for just one flight.

I do understand this is what the flight industry believes and likely is part of the reason they treat their customers like garbage.

[dawgfan]

As long as airlines put seats that recline on their planes and don't expressly forbid that feature being used, then there's nothing wrong with someone using the feature. You can ask the person in front to not do it, but you don't have the right to prevent it. If you want more leg room, then pay for a better seat or only book flights on airlines that have more legroom. We get the legroom and reclining seats because that's what we as consumers are willing to live with based off our purchase patterns.

[BillJasper]

I find it odd a grown man has never flown anywhere.

I've never flown either. At least that I can remember. Something very unsettling about the whole thing to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As long as airlines put seats that recline on their planes and don't expressly forbid that feature being used, then there's nothing wrong with someone using the feature. You can ask the person in front to not do it, but you don't have the right to prevent it. If you want more leg room, then pay for a better seat or only book flights on airlines that have more legroom. We get the legroom and reclining seats because that's what we as consumers are willing to live with based off our purchase patterns.

This.

And those cute little toys in this story belong squarely shoved into an uncomfortable orifice of whatever jackass decided to bring them along for the trip.

[Solecismic]

Using a knee defender is a dick move.

Each person should be free to recline or not recline as they wish.

I'm not sure what Jim's comment means other than he thinks that Airlines hold the customers hostage.

Look I would much rather drive than fly on a vacation. It's more relaxing, I'm in charge of my schedule and it's way easier to deal with kids.

Having said that. Driving on a road at 75mph is no comparison to flying in a plane at 550mph. The public just doesn't understand the massive undertaking it is to make everything come together for just one flight.


It was a joke. Of course, if you have to explain a joke, it probably wasn't that funny.

Consumers have shown, over and over, that they will choose price over any other consideration. We're like toddlers that way.

Like toddlers, we need limits. My view is that the flight experience has become so negative and so uncomfortable that someone needs to set some limits.

I get that a lot has to come together to get a million pounds from point A to point B at an astonishing speed and have it be safer than any other mode of travel.

But the airlines have become cynical. As has the government when it comes to safety.

Plus, the airlines weren't shy about asking for our money when their business model suffered after 9/11. Granted, that was an extraordinary event, but the fact that there was a bailout shows that airlines think of themselves as a utility. We also give them an exemption from anti-trust law (OK, anti-trust law is a bit of a joke).

Point being, the airlines can't have it both ways. They can't operate on the libertarian principle (which works for most industries) that their job is to keep prices as low as possible because the slope of the demand curve is steep. Yet reach out for assistance because they feel their industry is so large and important that their bottom line needs protection just like a utility.

[Blackadar]

I guess I'm weird in that price is not my primary consideration for selecting an airline flight. I'd much rather pay another $100/ticket for a convenient, direct flight rather than an off-hour flight with connections. At some point it becomes worth my time to take the cheaper flight, but I tend to look at times, direct flights and the size of the aircraft before selecting a fare. My time, even on vacation, is worth more than traveling at shitty times or taking horrendous connections.

---

This happened on a flight about two weeks ago...FA is doing the drink service. She screws up and skips an entire row. So one of the passengers says something like "are we going to be served"? It wasn't the most polite comment, but it wasn't outright rude or said in a particularly snide manner. The FA got right in the passenger's face and SCREAMED "I'll get to you in a moment!!!". Frankly, I felt like knocking that FA bitch out even though it didn't impact me.

It's weird, because I see some of the same FAs all the time. They're really nice in 1st class and in the first few seats of coach because that's where all the elite members sit, but damn if they don't get nastier as they work their way towards the back of the plane.

[dawgfan]

I guess I'm weird in that price is not my primary consideration for selecting an airline flight. I'd much rather pay another $100/ticket for a convenient, direct flight rather than an off-hour flight with connections. At some point it becomes worth my time to take the cheaper flight, but I tend to look at times, direct flights and the size of the aircraft before selecting a fare. My time, even on vacation, is worth more than traveling at shitty times or taking horrendous connections.
Yep. And this reminds me to review the tickets my wife just bought for our cross-country flight for Xmas to see the in-laws with our two little kids. She's 100% focused on price despite the fact we're doing fine financially - if there are options for seat upgrades, I'm going to do it. Flying 6+ hours each way is not the time to quibble over a few hundred dollars.

[Blackadar]

Yep. And this reminds me to review the tickets my wife just bought for our cross-country flight for Xmas to see the in-laws with our two little kids. She's 100% focused on price despite the fact we're doing fine financially - if there are options for seat upgrades, I'm going to do it. Flying 6+ hours each way is not the time to quibble over a few hundred dollars.

One easy way is to make sure you're on the right kind of plane. Cross country you're unlikely to be on an old 727/737, but I try to avoid those like the plague. US Air just retired their last 737 and I love 'em for it. The 737 was meant to sit 100 people when it was first released, but they now sit upwards of 180-200 passengers (though they're a bit bigger than the original 737s) whereas the Airbus planes (A319s and A320s) seem to have a little more room.

And as I said, at some point price starts to outweigh convenience or comfort. But everyone says "everyone is buying the cheapest airfare" and at least for me that doesn't apply. On my last casual flight my father made the arrangements and I was furious to find out he booked me for a 3 hour layover in Philly.

I'd have changed the flight, but of course airlines have made that prohibitively expensive nowadays.

[Lathum]

Yep. And this reminds me to review the tickets my wife just bought for our cross-country flight for Xmas to see the in-laws with our two little kids. She's 100% focused on price despite the fact we're doing fine financially - if there are options for seat upgrades, I'm going to do it. Flying 6+ hours each way is not the time to quibble over a few hundred dollars.

Having flown Seattle- Newark several times I suggest doing the upgrade. I will always pay extra to fly direct, and am elite status on United so we get the extra legroom seats. The extra legroom is really worth it, especialy with kids.

[Logan]

I'm not wealthy, but do okay...it would need to be at the point where I'd be saving $500 a ticket to make it worth having a connection.

[dawgfan]

I don't mind the connection. In fact, traveling with kids I'm willing to go through an extra boarding hassle just to have the chance to take a mid-flight break and let them run around for 30 minutes. Though I'm sure I'll be cursing if our first flight is severely delayed and fucks up the connection.

But the legroom - yeah. I generally do OK by picking an aisle seat and getting to stretch my outside leg into the aisle a bit, but that gets annoying when the service cart is out and about. For a longer flight like this one, I'd rather just pony up more money and get the extra room built-in.

[Lathum]

I don't mind the connection. In fact, traveling with kids I'm willing to go through an extra boarding hassle just to have the chance to take a mid-flight break and let them run around for 30 minutes. Though I'm sure I'll be cursing if our first flight is severely delayed and fucks up the connection.

.

And that is why I avoid connections at all costs, especially that time of year. All it takes is a mid west snow storm to really screw you over.

I will echo the times I have flown with my kids and we can't avoid a connection I try to find an extra long one to give them a chance to eat, stretch, etc...

[Logan]

Though I'm sure I'll be cursing if our first flight is severely delayed and fucks up the connection.

That's the thing for me. I always run the cost/benefit through my head when it comes to decisions like this. I think of how many years I'd be taking off my life as my blood was boiling for putting saving money over getting to my destination in the most efficient way possible.

A couple months ago I was going to New Orleans for a bachelor party, and a bunch of us were flying together. Our flight got delayed a bunch of hours because of weather, and a couple guys wanted to get on an earlier flight that connected through Chicago because it would get us to NOLA an hour earlier than our delayed flight. I thought it was the craziest idea ever, to risk missing out on the entire trip or getting stuck in Chicago for a night just to save an hour, but the majority wanted to so I went along. Thankfully it worked out but whatever % chance it wouldn't, even if it's miniscule, would rarely make it worth it to me.

[QuikSand]

The hipster wing of the Post weights in:

Americans strongly agree: You shouldn’t stop people from reclining on planes - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/27/americans-strongly-agree-you-shouldnt-stop-people-from-reclining-on-planes/)

[PilotMan]

Reclining a seat doesn't actually rob anyone of any leg room. It changes the angle for tall people whose knees are there if they have their legs bent at a 90 degree angle while sitting, but it also changes the angle and makes it easier to stretch your legs under the seat.

It also may make it so you can't cross your legs for shorter people. Us taller people never can do that anyway so it doesn't matter for us. I can never stretch my legs out all the way either. I'm pretty sure if a pissed off shorter person had to deal with the space issues that taller people do they'd just blow a gasket since they are so high strung in the first place. ;)

This concept that you are losing legroom is sort of bs. What you are losing is your comfort zone around your torso and up as the persons head in front of you travels closer toward your own.

[Izulde]

I never recline my seat on airplanes and always jam my knees up against the seat if the person in front of me does. Personally, I would make all seats on airplanes non-reclinable

[Solecismic]

Reclining a seat doesn't actually rob anyone of any leg room. It changes the angle for tall people whose knees are there if they have their legs bent at a 90 degree angle while sitting, but it also changes the angle and makes it easier to stretch your legs under the seat.

It also may make it so you can't cross your legs for shorter people. Us taller people never can do that anyway so it doesn't matter for us. I can never stretch my legs out all the way either. I'm pretty sure if a pissed off shorter person had to deal with the space issues that taller people do they'd just blow a gasket since they are so high strung in the first place. ;)

This concept that you are losing legroom is sort of bs. What you are losing is your comfort zone around your torso and up as the persons head in front of you travels closer toward your own.

You travel a lot more than most of us, presumably you've sat in coach plenty of times. So this argument mystifies me. Seats recline from a position just below where your knees go. So if you're tall and your knees are forward, it reduces your ability to bend by forcing you to keep your knees closer to your seat. With seat pitch greatly reduced these days, even that small angle change greatly reduces the amount which your knees can extend. And it doesn't change whether you can put your feet under the chair in front of you easily because the bottom of the seat doesn't move at all.

So what I find happens is that I get cramped because I can't change my knee position much when the seat in front is reclined. On the positive side, I feel less guilty when I bump the seat in front of me just trying to get comfortable. But, really, an hour is about the limit I can remain even remotely comfortable in one of those seats.

You're right that part of the aggravation is having some stranger's head move into my personal space. Another cost of the reduced seat pitch over the years. These seats are just 17 inches wide and 31 inches from the seat in front now.

[Buccaneer]

What were the seat width and distance from the front for coach about 15-20 years ago?

[Neon_Chaos]

I always pay a little bit extra for a bulkhead seat. Or volunteer for the exit row.

14 hour flights from Manila to the US are no joke. :)

[RainMaker]

Are the seats closer together nowadays or are we all just fatter?

[PilotMan]

They aren't "comfortable" by any stretch at all. Some are much better than others and every last one of them is better than 95% of all the cockpit jumpseats. I guess maybe that's why I'm just happy to have any seat that gets me back home again.

Maybe that's why it's much more of a "meh" thing as well. It's relative. I'm not paying for my seat and I'm much more happy just to be there. Instead of wondering if I'll ever get home again.

I agree with you Jim, I'd much rather the person not recline their seat. It's more comfortable that way. The newer United seats are another double edges sword. They are shorter under you butt so if you slouch you may find the end of it sooner, but they also have more pitch built into the seat without having to recline. That makes them just a bit more comfortable than the older seats. They still aren't soft enough under your ass making long flights still not as comfortable.

[Blackadar]

It happened again (well, the seat reclining thing):

Passenger upset over seat reclining forces diversion of Paris-bound flight to Logan Airport - Metro - The Boston Globe (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/08/28/unruly-passenger-forces-diversion-paris-bound-flight-logan-airport/cnQwh38JIJNeSdalaQBS4N/story.html)

[Lathum]

Alexandre was arraigned Thursday at the hospital, where the judge imposed personal recognizance. Once released from the hospital, Alexandre will go to East Boston District Court for his next hearing on Dec. 29.

I'm assuming he can't leave the country? So is he going to be like Tom Hanks from that movie and just live in Logan airport until after Christmas?

Hope the outrage was worth it.

[Blackadar]

...and a 3rd time. :)

Delta Flight Rerouted After Passengers Fight Over Legroom - Yahoo (https://gma.yahoo.com/delta-flight-routed-due-passenger-disruption-061107123--abc-news-topstories.html)


Two hour delay last night was fun for me. It was due to weather, but it was also due to them not boarding us until 15 minutes before takeoff rather than the customary 30. So we were *just* about to push back when the lightning showed up and were stranded on the ground for 2 hours. Anyone who had a connection missed it, but that's the reason I fly direct.

Question for PilotMan - how does the whole "FA's don't get paid while on the ground" thing work in a case like this? They were obviously working (they had to give us water) and the door was closed, but we hadn't pushed back yet.

[molson]

I always wonder what it's like on the plane after something like this happens. Does everyone know what's going on? Does the pilot tell them the whole story? How do you keep the passengers sitting next to where this is going on from lashing out against the idiot passengers who got the plane re-routed? I'd think that'd be security danger in itself.

[miked]

...and a 3rd time. :)

Delta Flight Rerouted After Passengers Fight Over Legroom - Yahoo (https://gma.yahoo.com/delta-flight-routed-due-passenger-disruption-061107123--abc-news-topstories.html)


Two hour delay last night was fun for me. It was due to weather, but it was also due to them not boarding us until 15 minutes before takeoff rather than the customary 30. So we were *just* about to push back when the lightning showed up and were stranded on the ground for 2 hours. Anyone who had a connection missed it, but that's the reason I fly direct.

Question for PilotMan - how does the whole "FA's don't get paid while on the ground" thing work in a case like this? They were obviously working (they had to give us water) and the door was closed, but we hadn't pushed back yet.

If the door is closed, they are getting paid.

[Blackadar]

If the door is closed, they are getting paid.

Of course, they opened and closed the door about a half dozen times during those two hours...but I imagine those disruptions didn't impact their time cards. :)

[PilotMan]

I wish they would bill these stupid fucks for the cost of the diversion. Getting a bill for $200,000 might just make these fuckers rethink their behavior.

[PilotMan]

Question for PilotMan - how does the whole "FA's don't get paid while on the ground" thing work in a case like this? They were obviously working (they had to give us water) and the door was closed, but we hadn't pushed back yet.

Generally the company wants to keep the door open so that the clock doesn't start on the FAA departure (3hr limit) if they know the time could be long. In that case they aren't getting paid (and neither are the pilots.)

Since this is generally an undesirable state for everyone involved (show me the money!) the crew tries to at least get the doors closed and the brakes released so they can get on the clock. Not all airlines are the same. Some don't start paying until the plane is under movement.

The catch to all of this is that if the door opens again, the plane deplanes or otherwise doesn't "depart for the purposes of flight" all that pay is lost.

[DaddyTorgo]

I wish they would bill these stupid fucks for the cost of the diversion. Getting a bill for $200,000 might just make these fuckers rethink their behavior.

This.

[bhlloy]

I'm amazed they can't go after them in court - I guess airlines have a bad enough rap anyway that it would be a PR disaster. I read that the two in the original incident weren't even arrested on landing, just turfed off the flight and I'm sure put right back onto the next one to their original destination. Great example to set.

[RainMaker]

I think taking bad passengers to court would generate good PR. Seems everyone hates those kind of people.

My stance is that if your behavior on a flight causes it to be diverted or re-routed, you lose your flying privileges for 5 years. No different than if you abuse your driving privileges. You get put on a no-fly list and that's that. One of these situations is going to end in disaster.

[Blackadar]

Generally the company wants to keep the door open so that the clock doesn't start on the FAA departure (3hr limit) if they know the time could be long. In that case they aren't getting paid (and neither are the pilots.)

Since this is generally an undesirable state for everyone involved (show me the money!) the crew tries to at least get the doors closed and the brakes released so they can get on the clock. Not all airlines are the same. Some don't start paying until the plane is under movement.

The catch to all of this is that if the door opens again, the plane deplanes or otherwise doesn't "depart for the purposes of flight" all that pay is lost.

I wonder how that's legal. They're on the plane and working. Seems like a lawsuit ready to happen.

[PilotMan]

Nope, that's the way that pay works for airline workers. We are paid when the plane departs for the purpose of flying. If the plane pushes back one foot, then sits for an hour then pulls back in to unload? Not paid. Taxi out and ATC delays the takeoff an hour? Paid. Plane loaded up, then we have a maintenance issue? Not paid. Of course we are paid if we have to taxi the plane to a new gate or something like that too, but otherwise that's how it works. Flight attendants are paid the same way, except for the taxiing thing. They aren't required in a reposition so they aren't paid, but that doesn't happen often.

I work 70-90 hours per month. Sounds great right? My hourly pay sounds great. $100/hr. However I'm on duty (and working) far more than that. Pay is only flight hours.

Take my next trip, a 3 day trip worth 17.5 flight hours. This is what pay is based off of for crews. My duty (includes all time from when I have to be at the airport til I get done for the day) for this trip is 24.5 hours. I'm working all this time but my pay isn't based on it. So my pay rate, while good isn't quite what it sounds. And my total time away from base (Newark) is just under 60 hours. That doesn't include my time to travel from Cincinnati to Newark and back. That add another 16 hours to the trip.

I don't know why this is the way it all is. It's been like this for as long as I've been in the industry. And I'm not listing my pay for some great discussion or to brag. I've spent the vast majority of my career making between $20-45/hr. Pilot pay is a matter of public record. You can find pay rates anywhere and the FAA (and my contract) dictates the number of hours I can work in a month.

[Blackadar]

Nope, that's the way that pay works for airline workers. We are paid when the plane departs for the purpose of flying. If the plane pushes back one foot, then sits for an hour then pulls back in to unload? Not paid. Taxi out and ATC delays the takeoff an hour? Paid. Plane loaded up, then we have a maintenance issue? Not paid. Of course we are paid if we have to taxi the plane to a new gate or something like that too, but otherwise that's how it works. Flight attendants are paid the same way, except for the taxiing thing. They aren't required in a reposition so they aren't paid, but that doesn't happen often.

I work 70-90 hours per month. Sounds great right? My hourly pay sounds great. $100/hr. However I'm on duty (and working) far more than that. Pay is only flight hours.

Take my next trip, a 3 day trip worth 17.5 flight hours. This is what pay is based off of for crews. My duty (includes all time from when I have to be at the airport til I get done for the day) for this trip is 24.5 hours. I'm working all this time but my pay isn't based on it. So my pay rate, while good isn't quite what it sounds. And my total time away from base (Newark) is just under 60 hours. That doesn't include my time to travel from Cincinnati to Newark and back. That add another 16 hours to the trip.

I don't know why this is the way it all is. It's been like this for as long as I've been in the industry. And I'm not listing my pay for some great discussion or to brag. I've spent the vast majority of my career making between $20-45/hr. Pilot pay is a matter of public record. You can find pay rates anywhere and the FAA (and my contract) dictates the number of hours I can work in a month.

I know, but I wonder how that's legal. Maybe it's negotiated via union contract or something and therefore ok.

As for the time away from base, that I understand since I travel every week. I'll spend 100 hours away from home and I'll work (bill) about 35 hours during that time.

[CU Tiger]

Nope, that's the way that pay works for airline workers. We are paid when the plane departs for the purpose of flying. If the plane pushes back one foot, then sits for an hour then pulls back in to unload? Not paid. Taxi out and ATC delays the takeoff an hour? Paid. Plane loaded up, then we have a maintenance issue? Not paid. Of course we are paid if we have to taxi the plane to a new gate or something like that too, but otherwise that's how it works. Flight attendants are paid the same way, except for the taxiing thing. They aren't required in a reposition so they aren't paid, but that doesn't happen often.

I work 70-90 hours per month. Sounds great right? My hourly pay sounds great. $100/hr. However I'm on duty (and working) far more than that. Pay is only flight hours.

Take my next trip, a 3 day trip worth 17.5 flight hours. This is what pay is based off of for crews. My duty (includes all time from when I have to be at the airport til I get done for the day) for this trip is 24.5 hours. I'm working all this time but my pay isn't based on it. So my pay rate, while good isn't quite what it sounds. And my total time away from base (Newark) is just under 60 hours. That doesn't include my time to travel from Cincinnati to Newark and back. That add another 16 hours to the trip.

I don't know why this is the way it all is. It's been like this for as long as I've been in the industry. And I'm not listing my pay for some great discussion or to brag. I've spent the vast majority of my career making between $20-45/hr. Pilot pay is a matter of public record. You can find pay rates anywhere and the FAA (and my contract) dictates the number of hours I can work in a month.


Side bar: I'd be fascinated to know and understand the legal ramifications of "state of employment" on these policies.

Speaking from personal experience I got drug to court by an employee I had let go several years ago on "illegally low wages" charges. The dept he worked in we paid production, and it was where everyone wanted to work. Several HS grads or even dropouts under 25 y.o. made 70-80k/year working for me in this group. The one caveat was they warrantied their own work for 30 days. That meant if there was a customer call back or a QC issue they returned and repaired it and weren't compensated for that trip. (Logic being Ive already paid you to do the job right once, I'm not paying you to do it again. Of course things like material defects and faulty equipment were not handled this way, this was purely work quality issues.)...anyway the state of NC labor board ruled that despite this employee making $68k that year in just over 9 month that during the 30 minute episodes (2) he brought to case he was making less than minimum wage at that moment and there for was due unemployment benefits or reinstatement.

Seems a case might exist, but unions and exemptions and such I am sure have this covered.

[miami_fan]

I don't think I could have came up with a better title for a thread with this story in it.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/11/travel/jetblue-passenger-urinates/index.html

A passenger on a Portland, Oregon-bound JetBlue flight is accused of urinating on fellow travelers, seats and luggage.

Jeff D. Rubin, 27, slept through most of the three-hour flight originating from Anchorage, Alaska, according to a Port of Portland police report.

About 30 minutes before landing "he stood up and began urinating through the crack of the seat onto the passengers seated in front of him," read the report.

"At some point Jeff Rubin lost his balance causing him to fall backwards and urinate upwards which got on the passengers and seats next to him as well as some other passenger's personal belongings," police said.

When police boarded Flight 47 in Portland, Rubin was slumped in his seat and sleeping, officials said.

Rubin, of Gresham, Oregon, faces two misdemeanor charges: criminal mischief and offensive littering.

He was booked into the Multnomah County Detention Center, where urinals are readily available in all cells.

He was released on his own recognizance.

It was not clear Friday whether he had an attorney.

CNN left a message at what's believed to be his residence.

[PilotMan]

Ambien and alcohol shouldn't be mixed.

[cartman]

Maybe he was just trying to see if yellow and blue make green? Probably will at least result in a loss of some green for him.