Solving crime or writing traffic tickets?

[BishopMVP]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/St.+Louis+City+%2F+County/F4DF1F6C71A534F186256E6B0020BC7D?OpenDocument&Headline=%22This+is+a+must%22%3A+Bel-Ridge+threatens+officers+who+don't+wri&highlight=2%2CBel%2CRidge

I hate police officers like this. This specific department is probably as bad as it gets, but the problem of police powers being used for revenue generation instead of protecting people from and solving crime seems to me to be widespread in this country, and definitely was both where I grew up and here at college.

:rolleyes: :(

[Chubby]

as if this should surprised anyone.

[sabotai]

I realize that if I posted my real opinion, this would probably turn into a huge political flame war, so I'll just leave it at "I agree with Bishop".

[BishopMVP]

I realize that if I posted my real opinion, this would probably turn into a huge political flame war, so I'll just leave it at "I agree with Bishop".Would that be at all similar to Dr. Dre, Eazy-E, MC Wren and Ice Cube's opinion? :)

[sabotai]

Fuck, Fuck, Fuck Fuck the PO-leese.

In a way, it could. :D

[Ben E Lou]

Ummmmm.....if people have a problem with them writing too many traffic tickets, then don't break traffic laws. I agree that putting the emphasis on traffic violations rather than crimes against a person is a problem, but if peopel didn't break the law, this wouldn't be an issue.

[Axxon]

Ummmmm.....if people have a problem with them writing too many traffic tickets, then don't break traffic laws. I agree that putting the emphasis on traffic violations rather than crimes against a person is a problem, but if peopel didn't break the law, this wouldn't be an issue.

They can't do that though. According to the chief if they don't write the tickets the department will disband. I'd say the drivers are taking one for the team. Have to if they want ANY crime prevention at all. That's not wrong to you??

[sabotai]

True SD, but I think it's a little troubling that the city would rather the cops write traffic tickets instead of the other stuff.

"We got someone doing 10 over the speed limit and I think I see a drug deal going down. Boss says we have to go after the speeder."

[JonInMiddleGA]

I agree that putting the emphasis on traffic violations rather than crimes against a person is a problem, but if peopel didn't break the law, this wouldn't be an issue.
How dare you insist that people actually take responsibility for their own actions. You must be another one of those fascist pigs I keep hearing so much about.

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[JonInMiddleGA]

The most surprising thing to me about this is that it would come as a surprise to anybody. (And FTR, I'm not saying that anybody in this thread is surprised about it)

... which patrols less than one square mile in which about 3,000 people live ...
There's no question in my mind that revenue generation is the primary purpose of virtually every police force in a town of this size in the U.S. Only difference between most of them & this one is that, in this case, someone was apparently stupid enough to put it in writing.

[BishopMVP]

Ummmmm.....if people have a problem with them writing too many traffic tickets, then don't break traffic laws. I agree that putting the emphasis on traffic violations rather than crimes against a person is a problem, but if peopel didn't break the law, this wouldn't be an issue.1. In general, I think most speed limits near where I live are too low, and engineering standards (85th Percentile) support this. The only road I've ever been cited on is 15 miles an hour under the 85th percentile and 11 mph under the 50th percentile. When everyone on the road is going at least 55-60, driving 45 mph isn't the safest course of action and traffic laws are supposed to be in place for safety reasons.

2. In this instance, the officers were issuing tickets instead of going after drug dealers or taking reports from a man who claimed to have just been mugged.

[Ben E Lou]

There's no question in my mind that revenue generation is the primary purpose of virtually every police force in a town of this size in the U.S. Only difference between most of them & this one is that, in this case, someone was apparently stupid enough to put it in writing.Agreed.

[Chubby]

Skydog - Did u actualy read the article? That was a nice little money making setup they had going on where they swicthed the blinking yellow to red manually at the last second to be able to write more tickets.

No one is saying "People should be allowed to drive 100 MPH" they are saying (along with some of the cops there) thatthey are persuaded to focus on writing tickets instead of more severe crimes. 97% of all motorists pulled over got a ticket? Gee nothing fishy there... :rolleyes:

[sabotai]

That's the problem with police departments. Their primary goal is to generate revenue, not stop crime. It's a flaw in the system.

My first question is why does an area that is less than a square mile in size need its own police department?

[JonInMiddleGA]

My first question is why does an area that is less than a square mile in size need its own police department?
ANSWER:
Their primary goal is to generate revenue
I don't know that this is so much a "flaw in the system" as it "IS the system"

[sabotai]

I rephrase, the whole system is flawed. :)

[BishopMVP]

That's the problem with police departments. Their primary goal is to generate revenue, not stop crime. It's a flaw in the system.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. :p Sorry.

[Barkeep49]

What are these percentiles you refer to Bishop?

[Glengoyne]

I actually hate traffic cops. I hate motorcycle cops, because ALL they do, is write tickets. They hide in the shadows with their radar guns, when they could be sitting out in plain sight actually deterring speeding with their presence. I am not saying they shouldn't write tickets. Just that they should serve other purposes as well. The whole revenue generation thing, should really result in someone getting canned. With the traffic accident incident it should have come to that already.

[Desnudo]

This practice of quotas has gone on for years. I remember the rule of thumb on a notoriously patrolled road was don't speed during the last few days of the month.

[BishopMVP]

What are these percentiles you refer to Bishop?Traffic engineers generally base their recommendations for speed limits on the 85th percentile of free-flowing traffic on a road. So they go and record the speeds of every car that passes by for a number of hours and recommend the speed limit, with the theory that the small percentage exceeding that speed limit is going too fast and is probably dangerous. The traffic engineers are commonly ignored, as can be noticed on most roads, where 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit is the normal rate of travel. This enables the police to make more money because instead of someone being 5 mph over, suddenly the driver is 10 or 15 mph over, and forced to pay more.

Luckily, you can get out of almost any speeding ticket if you bother to fight it, but almost no one does.

[Desnudo]

They are commonly ignored, as can be noticed on most roads, where 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit is the normal rate of travel.

The only place I've seen in Massachusetts where the common rate of travel is 5 or 10 mph over is in a parking lot.

[BishopMVP]

The only place I've seen in Massachusetts where the common rate of travel is 5 or 10 mph over is in a parking lot.Come out past 128 ;)

[Chubby]

Luckily, you can get out of almost any speeding ticket if you bother to fight it, but almost no one does.

I second this statement. 4 words: Ask for a deposition.

[BishopMVP]

I second this statement. 4 words: Ask for a deposition.I don't know if those are allowed in Massachusetts, but I just filed a motion for discovery (or the civil equivalent) with about 20 items on it and the cop didn't show. Unfortunately, Massachusetts instituted a $20 fee to take it from the Kangaroo Court to a real courtroom, so you lose that, but just forcing them to show up at trial means they lose money or at best break even prosecuting you.

[Desnudo]

Come out past 128 ;)

I think you misunderstood. What I meant was is the common rate of travel on highways is more like 15-25 MPH over the posted speed. :) I do think that MA speed limits are ridiculously low though. There are places on Rt. 2 that you can drive over 100 MPH safely for miles yet the speed limit is always 55 MPH.

[sabotai]

I don't think my POS car can even get up to 100 MPH. :D

[molson]

It's not like police units have share holders or CEOs, and it's not a profit-making venture - it is this very revnue that fights crime - where else do you suggest they get it from? Funding is being slashed for public services from coast to coast. Look at excess ticket writing as a crime prevention tax that only rule breakers have to pay.

[Desnudo]

It's not like police units have share holders or CEOs, and it's not a profit-making venture - it is this very revnue that fights crime - where else do you suggest they get it from? Funding is being slashed for public services from coast to coast. Look at excess ticket writing as a crime prevention tax that only rule breakers have to pay.

I would like to see a whiny liberal tax enacted (not saying you are one). For every Impeach Bush or Stop the War bumper sticker you subject others to, you must pay a user fee.

[Chubby]

It's not like police units have share holders or CEOs, and it's not a profit-making venture - it is this very revnue that fights crime - where else do you suggest they get it from? Funding is being slashed for public services from coast to coast. Look at excess ticket writing as a crime prevention tax that only rule breakers have to pay.


the point being that they aren't fighting crime, all they do is write tickets. the one cop in the article said they were basically told not to do checks on people they pull over since then they might have to arrest them taking valuable hours away from writing tickets.

Bishop - Yeah, that's basically the same thing. Here in NY, if they don't send it to you then you are good to go. Last one I got they royally screwed up, I asked for the deposition (which I got) then wrote the letter saying I wanted to go to court (usually a letter to the DA gets a plea bargin without having to even go to court, not in this dink town tho) so I get a letter from the court saying to show up on such and such day.

I show, no DA, no cops, just a lot of defendants. So the clerk tells me "well DA day is NEXT week" to which I explain to her "This is the letter I got saying to be here tonight, I've gotten nothing else." So I wait for the judge, I get called up explain the situation and he goes "Now I can't tell you what to do but if you'd like to make a motion to dismiss the charges..." "Yes I would" I say with a big as grin :D

[Rizon]

I like the police as much as Ice T use to.

[BishopMVP]

I think you misunderstood. What I meant was is the common rate of travel on highways is more like 15-25 MPH over the posted speed. :) I do think that MA speed limits are ridiculously low though. There are places on Rt. 2 that you can drive over 100 MPH safely for miles yet the speed limit is always 55 MPH.My bad. The Speed Limit on Route 2 gets ridiculous past 495 when it is just long stretches, especially with no cars. And don't forget the part where it dips to 45 mph all the way through my town ;)
It's not like police units have share holders or CEOs, and it's not a profit-making venture - it is this very revnue that fights crime - where else do you suggest they get it from? Funding is being slashed for public services from coast to coast. Look at excess ticket writing as a crime prevention tax that only rule breakers have to pay.Police are there to protect the safety of people from those doing dangerous things. Every action they do that punishes someone without there being a threat to someone else's safety just erodes respect. Especially when they start ignoring real crime to generate additional revenue.

[Fritz]

why do you even need to speed in new england? you are 5 min for everywhere else. How big is R.I. anyway, an Acre?

[sterlingice]

There's no question in my mind that revenue generation is the primary purpose of virtually every police force in a town of this size in the U.S. Only difference between most of them & this one is that, in this case, someone was apparently stupid enough to put it in writing. My favorite story involving this:

Speed-Trap City Bankrupted
By Traffic-Ticket Debt
7-1-01

KENDLETON, Texas (Reuters) - The traffic tickets that fed the southeast Texas city of Kendleton's coffers and its reputation as a speed trap have ended up driving it into bankruptcy in an ironic twist of highway law enforcement.

Kendleton Mayor Carolyn Jones said the city was forced to file for federal bankruptcy protection after the state seized all $18,599 in the city bank account. Texas asserts Kendleton owes the state $1.7 million in unpaid speeding ticket debts of its own.

Texas officials, citing a 1995 law that allows cities of fewer than 5,000 people to keep traffic fines equaling only 30 percent of their total revenue, say Kendleton collected too much money from speeding enforcement from 1990-99.

Anything collected beyond that threshold goes to the state, as a way to keep cities from turning their police departments into money-making machines. Kendleton's attorney disputes the amount the city owes the state.

The city's traffic-ticket troubles bubbled over last June when the city council disbanded its 15-member police force amid a state-FBI investigation into misuse of federal grants and missing ticket money that is still continuing.

Situated 45 miles southwest of Houston on U.S. Highway 59, the main route stretching from the northeastern corner of Texas down to the border city of Laredo, Kendleton took advantage of its prime frontage to catch a steady stream of speeders.

[Tekneek]

Ummmmm.....if people have a problem with them writing too many traffic tickets, then don't break traffic laws. I agree that putting the emphasis on traffic violations rather than crimes against a person is a problem, but if peopel didn't break the law, this wouldn't be an issue.

I agree to a point, but when police officers are refusing to appear at crime scenes but don't have a problem running speed traps, there is a real issue. I know of at least two instances where local cops could not be bothered to show up at a burglary scene...but routinely cops from this same force are out running speed traps on Sunday mornings when traffic is so light that none of the speeders pose a reasonable threat to anyone else.

[Easy Mac]

I like it when the local TV stations find out where a speed trap or ID chekpoint will be and keep telling for a few days. THat really has to piss off the police.

[BishopMVP]

I like it when the local TV stations find out where a speed trap or ID chekpoint will be and keep telling for a few days. THat really has to piss off the police.
Or when AAA puts a sign up outside city limits :D http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/weird_news/6528905.htm

[Dutch]

I hate cops, I wish people would just write their own tickets and put themselves in jail. But no, they want somebody to hold their hand through the process...

[Ben E Lou]

Or when AAA puts a sign up outside city limits :D http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/weird_news/6528905.htm
If I recall, a Georgia legislative body voted to have a sign put up to point out a speed trap to motorists in the not too distant past.

[Tekneek]

I hate cops, I wish people would just write their own tickets and put themselves in jail. But no, they want somebody to hold their hand through the process...

I sort of agree with your joke. I have never had a traffic ticket, and it is because I am smart and safe about the way I drive. I wish everyone would be as responsible with their driving. At the same time, police officers rarely pull people over for improper lane changes, tailgating, etc, unless an accident is caused. These generally pose far greater risks to the safety of other drivers than somebody doing 15 over the limit when there is no other car within 1,000 feet. The police don't pull them over because it is harder to catch the guy in the middle of traffic that is hovering half an inch off of your bumper. It's a simple matter of kicking your souped up mustang into gear to catch the guy speeding on a lonely stretch of highway early Sunday morning, so that is who they want to bust.

[Axxon]

I've had a few speeding tickets but only one was totally bs. I was in Arizona on my way to California. I had cruise control set and was darned glad to have it as I'd seen several people pulled over. It was obviously ticket day.

I was driving along when a jeep pulls out of the slow lane and proceeds to follow me far too closely to be safe. I see a break in the cars ahead so I speed up and get around the car one car length in front of me in the right lane and pull back over.

The jeep proceeds to flash the blue lights and write me a ticket for speeding. He acknowledged that he was driving too closely and acknowledged that I wasn't speeding until he did but gave the weak excuse that he got behind me because I was swerving which was an obvious lie.

He declined to give me a roadside test and said "maybe you were tired." Maybe he saw my out of state plates as I passed is more likely.

Now, I took it in stride because I've gotten away with far more than the number of times I've been falsely ticketed but still, this is a very real threat when revenue generation becomes more important than safety enforcement and given the outrageous jump it causes in insurance rates, it's not something to be taken lightly like the holier than thou "don't speed and it'll be alright crowd" so flippantly says.

It's not always about taking responsibility for your actions at all.

[Fritz]

Whats worse than speed traps?

Manufactured speeding:

<i>about Emporia Virginia</i>
A strict observance of the speed limit through this town is certainly no guarantee that you will not get a ticket for speeding. On 11-14-03 my wife and I were traveling from Florida (with Palm Beach Florida license plates) heading north on I-95 passing through Emporia Virginia(she was driving). We saw the sign that reduced the speed limit from 65 to 55 and slowed down accordingly. Within 1 mile of entering Emporia we were pulled over by an officer that claimed she was doing 70mph in a 55 mph zone. We know for a fact that she was not. I respectfully tried to question the officer regarding the circumstances of his false allegation. These attempts were met with the contemptuous reply. "I am a trained professional don't question me"! After 25 years of driving like the egg lady my wife received her very first ticket for a contrived offense at the hands of a dishonest member of the Emporia police dept. The citizens of Emporia Virginia should be so proud of a Police Department that sits on the side of the road and does with an ink pen what Jesse James and his gang used to need a six gun for! Robbery, no matter what the instrument of intimidation is Robbery just the same. Sign us "Disgusted in Florida"
<hr>

Other's Comments - 3/2004 - Interesting comments. I had the exact experience...I was driving south on 95 and saw a police car on the side of the road about a 1/4 mile ahead. I checked my speed and verified that I was in the limit. I actually was driving about 57 mph. I didn't even slow down as I passed the parked police car. To my surprise I was pulled over and issued a citation for 74 in a 55 zone.
These guys are what's wrong with traffic law enforcement. To be honest I actually felt sorry for the officer. Here's a guy who joined the force to uphold the law and he's being forced to lie and steal from citizens. I really don’t know how these guys look themselves in the mirror when it’s time to go to work.

[Axxon]

Whats worse than speed traps?

Manufactured speeding:

Yeah, but this is preferable to almost running someone off the road in order to get them to speed so you can legally ticket them I'd say. I know, I'd have preferred it.

[Fritz]

Yeah, but this is preferable to almost running someone off the road in order to get them to speed so you can legally ticket them I'd say. I know, I'd have preferred it.

true enough. Hey, at least he didn't beat you.

[Axxon]

true enough. Hey, at least he didn't beat you.

I can be thankful of that at least. I hadn't been a federal employee long enough to learn the old casually flash my id as I'm finding my license trick yet or I likely wouldn't have gotten anything.

[cthomer5000]

My biggest pet peeve is the fact that the police absolutely never use their turn signals when driving, and generally blatnatly break a million laws of the road while on duty. I honestly think part of their jobs should be obeying the laws they are supposed to be enforcing when reasonably possible (99% of the time). Perhaps setting an example for the public to follow wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[Buccaneer]

or giving police too much leeway (from The Gazette)


That your home is your castle isn’t just a saying, but a precept of English common law, which is the foundation of American law. That’s something that police and courts strongly need to be reminded of. The slope gets not just slippery but potentially steep when we permit law enforcers too much latitude in bending the law while doing their jobs.

On March 19, Carlsbad, Calif., “police invaded the home of Dina Dagy after obtaining a search warrant on the basis that her family’s electric bill was $250 to $300 a month,” reported the Associated Press. Police “suspected a marijuana farm was flourishing under high-intensity lights inside their suburban home.”

The San Diego Union-Tribune reported that “an unidentified, confidential” source told police that pot might be growing in the house.

Police searched the home with a drug-sniffing dog but found only “a wife and mother who does several loads of laundry a day, keeps a dishwashing machine going, has three electricityguzzling computers and three kids who can’t remember to turn the lights out when they leave a room,” according to the AP. That sounds like millions of American homes.

The police apologized, but noted that obtaining search warrants under such a pretext is “common practice” and that another telltale sign of growing illegal drugs — putting out the trash early in the morning — also was observed.

So a bad tip, a high electricity bill and common trash habits led to a drug raid on an innocent family.

“Warrants are too readily approved by judges,” said Timothy Lynch, director of the Cato Institute’s Project on Criminal Justice. He suggests that city councils, county boards of supervisors and state legislatures more closely scrutinize police work and the actions of judges in such cases.

State legislators, especially, would be wise to tighten laws in such matters, perhaps even banning the use of electric bills as a reason for getting a search warrant.

[Easy Mac]

My one and only wreck occurred becuase a cop ran a stop sign without his lights on or a siren and the 2 cars ahead of me slammed on their breaks. My car didn't stop and I hit the car in front of me. The officer continued on his way. The cop that came for the report said that a convict had gotten away and the police were darting around the area looking for him. We all said his lights were not on, but the police report said they were. I tried to argue when I went to court for the ticket I was issued, but they said that the police report said his lights were on. Total BS. If I actually thought it was worthwhile, I would have sued, but now I'm stuck with high insurance and a shitty car after mine was totaled.

[Fritz]

I can be thankful of that at least. I hadn't been a federal employee long enough to learn the old casually flash my id as I'm finding my license trick yet or I likely wouldn't have gotten anything.


dude, we get out of tickets?

[Easy Mac]

dude, we get out of tickets?
and it makes a great way to let people in your house so ou can search for aliens.

Mulder and Scully, FBI.

[Axxon]

dude, we get out of tickets?

Not as a matter of policy of course, but in reality yes. When I was an air traffic controller all I basically did was show my tower id and I never got more than a warning. Now, other controllers who were less subtle and tried to pimp their jobs would sometimes get tickets but I never did that. Basically, I didn't like the system so never expected it to work but darned if it didn't time and time again. :)

[Axxon]

and it makes a great way to let people in your house so ou can search for aliens.

Mulder and Scully, FBI.

I don't get it.

[sterlingice]

The police apologized, but noted that obtaining search warrants under such a pretext is “common practice” and that another telltale sign of growing illegal drugs — putting out the trash early in the morning — also was observed.
Damn. I always suspected my parents were really pot growers and their putting out the trash early had nothing to do with them "needing to be at work".

SI

[Tekneek]

Perhaps setting an example for the public to follow wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Government authorities should always obey all laws. If the enforcement authorities are not bound by the laws, why should anybody else? I have little respect for police authorities because they have shirked their duty whenever I have needed them, and everyday you see examples of them breaking the law.

[Easy Mac]

or giving police too much leeway (from The Gazette)
Thats odd, because I had to read about a case similar to that.

Kyllo v. United States (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=99-8508)

[Tekneek]

Thats odd, because I had to read about a case similar to that.

Kyllo v. United States (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=99-8508)

That is a decision I like. Without that, the police could just drive up and down streets, go and gather a box of warrants, and then spend the next few days raiding home after home in search of 'drugs.' I sure do love this 'drug war' and how the legal authorities don't really care about our rights.

[sterlingice]

That is a decision I like. Without that, the police could just drive up and down streets, go and gather a box of warrants, and then spend the next few days raiding home after home in search of 'drugs.' I sure do love this 'drug war' and how the legal authorities don't really care about our rights.
Well, that has been mutated to the "war on terror" now.

SI

[Tekneek]

Well, that has been mutated to the "war on terror" now.

Yeah. To the enforcement arms of the government, this is one of the best things that could have happened. They get to wave that around and watch people sign away their liberties.