Why don't women post here?

[WSUCougar]

For the record, this is An Attempt at a Serious Discussion. While I fully expect a rash of lewd one liners and kleenex-related humor, I’d like to hear some serious thoughts on this subject. I don’t really have a thesis, but rather some observations to throw out for comment.

I’ll begin by stating three assumptions:

(a) That the vast majority of FOFC posters are male
(b) That FOFC provides a decent representative sampling of text-simmers
(c) That – for the most part - the pool of text-simmers trickles down from sports fans

Feel free to debate these assumptions if you’d like (but if it gets out of hand…I’LL DELETE THIS THREAD! I SWEAR TO GOD, I WILL!).

While spectator sports have traditionally fallen into the male sphere for the most part, I think we all can agree that women are very active fans as well. It depends a lot on the who, what, when, and where, but there is a sizable minority of female sports fans. Let’s take the four major sports: football, baseball, basketball, and hockey. Attendance at any of those, whether college or pro, reflects significant female interest. Of course for women’s teams the fan base is tilted far toward women fans.

I think a case can be made that, with notable exceptions, female sports fans are often different in the way they follow sports than their male counterparts.

It’s much harder to observe any similar trends for computer games, and specifically those tied to sports. My sense, only from my own limited experience, is that female sports computer gamers are rather rare, and that female sports text sim gamers are almost non-existent.

But why?

I have some of my own ideas on this, but I want hear some other hypotheses first.

[Ksyrup]

This is like one of those government studies about what temperature water boils at.

Most computer and/or sports geeks are male. End of discussion.

[John Galt]

I think Ksyrup is generally right on this one. I think the cross section of football sim geeks is even more male oriented (I wonder if Jim has ever looked at the gender composition of his customer base). There have been a couple women that I remember, but they were definitely rare. I'd also think if a woman came here, she might not out herself because she wouldn't want to be a novelty who always attracts comments on her gender (or guys hitting on her in a joking fashion).

[WSUCougar]

This is like one of those government studies about what temperature water boils at. End of discussion.
Thanks, bud, I love you, too.

The question is "WHY?"

[The Afoci]

Thanks, bud, I love you, too.

The question is "WHY?"

The same reason the most men who play with barbies only do so to touch boobs, because God said so.

[WSUCougar]

Take the analysis back several steps. Why are computer and/or sports geeks all male?

[Kodos]

I think it is mostly due to Fritz's presence. He drove that one guy's sister away.

[Ksyrup]

Thanks, bud, I love you, too.

The question is "WHY?"
Hey! You took out my answer to your WHY!

OK...how about this?

If 75% of hardcore sports fans are male, and 85% of hardcore gamers are male, you don't have to be Kickstand to know that the odds are even less favorable that a female would be a hardcore sports gamer.

[WSUCougar]

Multi-part question, then:

Why aren't women "hardcore" sports fans?
Why aren't women "hardcore" gamers?
Why doesn't the fact that many women are sports fans (in some capacity) translate to gaming?

[John Galt]

This doesn't answer the new questions, but I also think the sports sim community is largely composed through word of mouth. Men tell other men about sports sim games, but usually not women.

[Kodos]

Women aren't as competitive as men. Thus, they don't care very much about sports, they care even less about sports games, and even less than that about forums dedicated to games about sports that they don't care about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think you're trying to get a little deeper than just "because" on this, so I'll take a stab at something.



We've established that "it's a guy thing". Maybe part of this goes back to the roots of our childhood play. I don't think it'd be hard to find a pretty good number of computer-based text-simmers of today who have spent time (considerable time even) with the dice-and-chart forerunners of today's games -- APBA, Strat-O-Matic, etc. Those games, and their usually less-sophisticated homemade counterparts, were a notable part of some of the childhoods around here & I don't think it's much of a reach to say that at least some of us play comp. text-sims here as simply the next evolution of those games. In all my life, I've never met a female APBA/SOM player. Not one. I've heard of a few, but even that has been pretty rare.

So perhaps one factor in the gender skew is that we have "history" with games like these that females don't really have; they didn't play with the same "building blocks" as the guys did.

[Rizon]

Slam some Backstreet Boys / Colin Ferrrel / N*Sync pictures, links to shopping sites, pictures of shoes and purses up on this site, and you'd get some girls.

[QuikSand]

I think that this genre appeals very much to a certain kind of analytical thinking. Same goes for really hardcore sports fandom -- if you really get into the numbers in detail, really follow things like offseason moves or drafting and that sort of thing -- you're just enjoying a rather different game than many less enthusiastic fans. And the same goes for things like role-playing games and (most) management-style simulations... they appeal to the empire builder in us.

And for whatever reason, by us above, I mean men. For whatever reason, these drives are just present in men -- especially intelligent and fairly young men -- more than women. I don't think that women lack imagination, I don't think they necessarily lack the skills necessary to comprehend thos sort of thing... but they by and large lack the drive to pursue it.

[WSUCougar]

I buy into the fact that women usually aren’t as competitive as men, or at least in a different way. I think that is a product of evolution, from strength-based, warrior clans in ancient history to the modern sports that emulate battles.

I also think that Jon’s point is well-taken. We have a support mechanism in place that has pointed us all in this direction.

Quiksand’s point is the one that puzzles me, and really what prompted me to start this thread. Bottom line for me is I get off on the number-crunching, thousands-of-possibilities, empire-building match up with the sports genre that I love for the reasons noted above. Incidentally, this is something that I’ve always linked to baseball as a particular joy. It tracks toward people like me.

But would that carry over for women, under scrutiny? To quote Quiksand, “but they by and large lack the drive to pursue it.”

[JonInMiddleGA]

But would that carry over for women, under scrutiny? To quote Quiksand, “but they by and large lack the drive to pursue it.”
You probably ought to check this guy's work
http://www.cas.suffolk.edu/psychology/katz.html

Also
http://web.umr.edu/~endc/readinglist.html#Gender

[sjshaw]

What are these "women" of which you speak?

[Ksyrup]

http://www.cas.suffolk.edu/psychology/all_files/katz.jpg


And here I thought Bob Ross died!

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Girls are too smart to waste all their time on crap like this. :D

Additionally, they're too busy in the kitchen baking me a pie.

[AgustusM]

If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle

[Poli]

I have yet to read all the posts, but do you think it could be because women who actually like football don't know of this place?

[RendeR]

Women aren't as competitive as men. Thus, they don't care very much about sports, they care even less about sports games, and even less than that about forums dedicated to games about sports that they don't care about.


Response from my wife (who is a member here*telle*)
"Women are not 'Friendly' competitive...."

[cthomer5000]

I don't know why they're not intersted. I also don't know why women seem to think it's reasonable to own 25+ purses/handbags.

It's definitely a majority social upbringing, but what exactly drives men and women to be so different on the whole is completely beyond me.

[cthomer5000]

Response from my wife (who is a member here*telle*)
"Women are not 'Friendly' competitive...."
I think there is some very serious truth to this. If any of you have seen the differences between a show like "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette", you can see it. The guys (largely) all seem to do their best to win over the chick, but act pretty civil towards each other during the whole process. The women on the other hand are all talking shit, trying to back-stab each other, etc. I think on the whole, women make competition much more personal.

[gstelmack]

The assumption that women aren't hardcore sports gamers might be accurate, but the assumption that there aren't many female hardcore gamers / computer geeks is completely false. They tend to be quiet and like different games, but there are more hardcore gaming females than you might think. My wife works with me as a programmer at a game company and plays lots of games, for example, and the Warcraft group I play with is half female. There are a surprising number of women who play tactical shooters; they aren't necessarily as big into run-and-gun games like Quake, but thinking games see a fairly high proportion of female gamers.

[Desnudo]

For the record, this is An Attempt at a Serious Discussion. While I fully expect a rash of lewd one liners and kleenex-related humor, I’d like to hear some serious thoughts on this subject. I don’t really have a thesis, but rather some observations to throw out for comment.

I’ll begin by stating three assumptions:

(a) That the vast majority of FOFC posters are male
(b) That FOFC provides a decent representative sampling of text-simmers
(c) That – for the most part - the pool of text-simmers trickles down from sports fans

Feel free to debate these assumptions if you’d like (but if it gets out of hand…I’LL DELETE THIS THREAD! I SWEAR TO GOD, I WILL!).

While spectator sports have traditionally fallen into the male sphere for the most part, I think we all can agree that women are very active fans as well. It depends a lot on the who, what, when, and where, but there is a sizable minority of female sports fans. Let’s take the four major sports: football, baseball, basketball, and hockey. Attendance at any of those, whether college or pro, reflects significant female interest. Of course for women’s teams the fan base is tilted far toward women fans.

I think a case can be made that, with notable exceptions, female sports fans are often different in the way they follow sports than their male counterparts.

It’s much harder to observe any similar trends for computer games, and specifically those tied to sports. My sense, only from my own limited experience, is that female sports computer gamers are rather rare, and that female sports text sim gamers are almost non-existent.

But why?

I have some of my own ideas on this, but I want hear some other hypotheses first.

There is nothing on this board that would appeal or interest any woman. Not one thread. There are a lot of things said that women would dislike. It's that simple.

[Telle]

There is nothing on this board that would appeal or interest any woman. Not one thread. There are a lot of things said that women would dislike. It's that simple.

Wow, that's one hell of a generalization.

[Easy Mac]

Becuase a woman would ruin all of the homo erotic innuendo that occurs at an all male board... they know this and stay away.

And don't we still have the hattrick girl from MD.

[Samdari]

There is nothing on this board that would appeal or interest any woman. Not one thread. There are a lot of things said that women would dislike.

And the few who are remotely interested, run screaming from the infamous SkyDog porch photo.

[Desnudo]

Wow, that's one hell of a generalization.

No, it's the simple truth. Obviously you can't handle it.

[Desnudo]

Maybe you are right. After I looked at the threads below this one:

Playstation games rated
Justice Dept. and porno
Rant on Potty Mouthism
South Carolina Republican Debate Review

That's a paradise for women! I'm sorry for generalizing.

[Axxon]

No, it's the simple truth. Obviously you can't handle it.

She can't????

[Desnudo]

I should have never even replied to this thread. I'm going to the UEFA Cup one. Good bye.

[tucker342]

were not cocky and funny enough...:(

seriously though, textbased sports games are probably not very popular with women

[Dutch]

Women just play Madden, hoping to see a shot of some dude's ass in tights. Text sports just aren't that revealing.

[Fritz]

I can get them here. stay tuned

[Radii]

I know my fiancee reads this board on occasion. She has yet to run screaming from any post she has read.

[sterlingice]

I think there is some very serious truth to this. If any of you have seen the differences between a show like "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette", you can see it. The guys (largely) all seem to do their best to win over the chick, but act pretty civil towards each other during the whole process. The women on the other hand are all talking shit, trying to back-stab each other, etc. I think on the whole, women make competition much more personal.
Sorry, I can't really speak to "The Bachelor" et al (*wretch*). But, it seems that they take competition much more seriously. I'll stay up all hours of the night debating friends of mine and we'll want to do it again the next day. But, if I try to do the same with my girlfriend, she takes every debate personally even if it has nothing to do with her. And I've seen this a lot in girls- they tend to really dislike any sort of competition because they take losing very personally. But, if you ask me if I won or lost playing hockey the other night, I'd gladly offer up "we lost, but we'll get 'em next time". So it's just not worth the risk/reward- if you take competition to that point that it takes a mental toll when you lose either because your competition is much less friendly or just because it's a personality trait, I'm sure it's just not something you want to go back to.

SI

[GrantDawg]

Sorry, I can't really speak to "The Bachelor" et al (*wretch*). But, it seems that they take competition much more seriously. I'll stay up all hours of the night debating friends of mine and we'll want to do it again the next day. But, if I try to do the same with my girlfriend, she takes every debate personally even if it has nothing to do with her. And I've seen this a lot in girls- they tend to really dislike any sort of competition because they take losing very personally. But, if you ask me if I won or lost playing hockey the other night, I'd gladly offer up "we lost, but we'll get 'em next time". So it's just not worth the risk/reward- if you take competition to that point that it takes a mental toll when you lose either because your competition is much less friendly or just because it's a personality trait, I'm sure it's just not something you want to go back to.

SI
Right on. I have friend who always leaves messages on my answering machine which begins with "hey, loser." It drives my wife nuts. "Why do you let him do that?" She asks. Little does she know, I regularly call him worse. It is just the "fun competion" that male friends have. She cannot in any fashion fathom that it is not personal. She relates it to a friend calling her and saying "hey, fatty."

[Fritz]

there is some wisdom here that would have been of some use early in my marriage.

Fritz says "hey dummy, turn the stove off" to a buddy, "turn the stove off" is the important part of the message.

Fritz says "hey dummy, turn the stove off" to the soontobeexmrsfritz, "you think I am a dummy" comes back up 5 years later.

[oliegirl]

I read this board pretty frequently...I am a sports fan, especially College Football, but I can't recite statistics or name head coaches from 50 years ago. Women (for the most part) are sports fans because they enjoy watching the game and it's fun. We don't become as obsessed with it as men do and start memorizing the history of the teams and dissecting every play to decide how it could have turned out differently.

I don't know why they're not intersted. I also don't know why women seem to think it's reasonable to own 25+ purses/handbags.

As for the reasoning behind having 25+ purses in our closets - it's all about variety! Most women have one or two purses they love and use on a daily basis all the time. But it's nice to have fun and cute purses to choose from every once in a while too. If we could have an assortment of men stashed in our closet we would!

[Butter]

I can't even play Monopoly with my wife (well, beat her that is), because if I beat her it's the cold shoulder for at least that night and maybe continuing into the following day.

[Radii]

If we could have an assortment of men stashed in our closet we would!

And here I was thinking that you wanted the bigger closet for all of the shoes... ;)

[WSUCougar]

Women (for the most part) are sports fans because they enjoy watching the game and it's fun. We don't become as obsessed with it as men do and start memorizing the history of the teams and dissecting every play to decide how it could have turned out differently.
Thanks for replying.

Can you address the statements I've quoted in a bit more detail? Specifically, what element(s) about watching sports are "fun," and why do you find the things you mention for men unappealing? Stats, for example.

[Butter]

Most women I know who are sports fans were raised watching sports. In this nature/nurture debate, I'm going to have to go with NURTURE, by quite a margin. If you were raised a sports fan, chances are you remain one your whole life. Most women are NOT raised as sports fans.

[WSUCougar]

Most women I know who are sports fans were raised watching sports. In this nature/nurture debate, I'm going to have to go with NURTURE, by quite a margin. If you were raised a sports fan, chances are you remain one your whole life. Most women are NOT raised as sports fans.
But in terms of gaming I think the disconnect comes after that point. It's the way women are sports fans that makes a difference, not whether they are or not.

[Fritz]

you have the prettiest eyes

I read this board pretty frequently...I am a sports fan, especially College Football, but I can't recite statistics or name head coaches from 50 years ago. Women (for the most part) are sports fans because they enjoy watching the game and it's fun. We don't become as obsessed with it as men do and start memorizing the history of the teams and dissecting every play to decide how it could have turned out differently.



As for the reasoning behind having 25+ purses in our closets - it's all about variety! Most women have one or two purses they love and use on a daily basis all the time. But it's nice to have fun and cute purses to choose from every once in a while too. If we could have an assortment of men stashed in our closet we would!

[Rizon]

I read this board pretty frequently...I am a sports fan, especially College Football, but I can't recite statistics or name head coaches from 50 years ago. Women (for the most part) are sports fans because they enjoy watching the game and it's fun. We don't become as obsessed with it as men do and start memorizing the history of the teams and dissecting every play to decide how it could have turned out differently.



As for the reasoning behind having 25+ purses in our closets - it's all about variety! Most women have one or two purses they love and use on a daily basis all the time. But it's nice to have fun and cute purses to choose from every once in a while too. If we could have an assortment of men stashed in our closet we would!

Not my alias

[Radii]

you have the prettiest eyes

She's mine, and plus, you already have your trout.

[Blade6119]

She's mine, and plus, you already have your trout.
Thats why women dont read the board... :rolleyes:

[Radii]

Thats why women dont read the board... :rolleyes:

Because of the trout? (oliegirl actually is my fiancee)

[Blade6119]

I just can't stand the trout joke...way too old and overplayed in my mind...I also think a lot of girls arent too big on text-sims or video games in general. Regardless of what is on this board, it is still titled after a video game that a limited audience plays or knows about. We have gained members from other boards, but most of the members here play text-sims or are married or friends with someone who does.

[Radii]

I just can't stand the trout joke...way too old and overplayed in my mind...

ah ok, I didn't know if you were commenting on that or if you were commenting on the apparent fighting over anyone who has "girl" in their name.

I find that very few people have any interest in text based sims, men or women, it seems a very small niche. The people I played EQ with(a large community of 'gamers' of a sort) would have absolutely no interest in anything that goes on here, and they are mostly guys. I bring up these games that I enjoy every year during the appropriate sports season, and get funny looks from pretty much everyone, regardless of sex.

[RendeR]

Thats why women dont read the board... :rolleyes:


*CACKLES insanely and falls out of his chair*

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Fritz
you have the prettiest eyes

I am not that easy! :) Thanks honey for coming to my rescue!!!

And here I was thinking that you wanted the bigger closet for all of the shoes...

Well, given that you might get upset if I had Colin Farrell, John Cusack and Brad Pitt stashed in the closet, I use it for shoes instead...and speaking of - when I can go shoe shopping??? I need some cute pink sandals! ;)


Thanks for replying.

Can you address the statements I've quoted in a bit more detail? Specifically, what element(s) about watching sports are "fun," and why do you find the things you mention for men unappealing? Stats, for example.

It's not that we find that stuff unappealing - it's just that we would rather fill our mind with other things...it has never occured to me to even wonder who the 3rd baseman for the 1954 Dodgers was, it doesn't matter to me. I don't even know if I could tell you who the Braves current 3rd baseman is, but I love to watch baseball and go to games. It might just be the classic difference between men and women. I can quote info on actors and actresses and tell you what movies they have been in, but I can't tell you sports statistics.

[Butter]

I can quote info on actors and actresses and tell you what movies they have been in,

So can I! Does that mean I'm a woman?

[Fritz]

I am not that easy! :)

This begs the question, how easy are you?

Thanks honey for coming to my rescue!!!

(from this we can deduce that you a middle aged or older southern waitress)


You think you're one of a special breed
You think that you're his pet Pekinese
I'll be your savior, steadfast and true
I'll come to your emotional rescue
<img src=http://www.buffworks.com/s/JAGGER/BIG2.gif>

[Radii]

I am ashamed to admit that I do not know who the 3rd baseman was for the 1954 Dodgers. I know a large majority of that team but for the life of me I cannot remember who played 3rd. I'm going to be disappointed when I go look it up.

[WSUCougar]

Ron Cey.

Er, no that was 1974.

[oliegirl]

This begs the question, how easy are you?

I don't know - ask Radii! :)

(from this we can deduce that you a middle aged or older southern waitress)


Am not! I am a cute 30ish brunette who has never, and will never be a waitress! I am southern though...

[Radii]

I should have known that, although for some reason Jackie Robinson played 50 games at 3rd that year, but the guy listed as the starter at http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BRO/1954.shtml I knew :(

[rkmsuf]

what the heck is 30ish...39?

[WSUCougar]

Let's see if I can post this before someone else posts a request for pics.

[WSUCougar]

dola

I did it!

[Fritz]

I don't know - ask Radii! :)


Oh Radii.......


I am southern though...

DING!

[oliegirl]

what the heck is 30ish...39?

No - 30ish is 22 days away from turning 31 :(

[WSUCougar]

That's not as bad as 97 days away from turning 40... :(

[Fritz]

That is not as bad as 23447 days away from turning 100

[rkmsuf]

took you 36 minutes to come up with that...

[Fritz]

took you 36 minutes to come up with that...

try counting to on your fingers

(someone was in my office)

[albionmoonlight]

There is also the learning curve argument. In general, guys are taught sports from an early age--girls, not so much. Sports are enjoyable (at least for the text sim gamer type), in part, because we know what is going on. The Music City Miracle is simply cooler if you understand what a lateral is. Watching a draw play get the first down on 2nd and 15 is cooler if you knew that the defense was expecting pass and got caught with its pants down. Watching Mike Martz play for overtime instead of the win is more compelling when you 1.) understand the rules of overtime and 2.) know his past as a "gambling" style coach.

All of that is a long winded way of saying that football (and sports generally) is more compelling if you really know what is going on. A woman who is--say--high school age and does not know the difference among an offensive tackle, a defensive tackle, and what you do to bring down a ball carrier, will have a harder time appreciating what is going on when she trys to watch a game and, accordingly, may never really get into watching it. If she never gets into sports, she never gets into sports games and never makes it to this board.

To the extent that she is in the stands at the game, I have a sense that there is still a level on which she does not really understand the subtley of what is going on, but has a base knowledge of the rules and is just enjoying the crowd, the energy, and the athleticism--Kind of like me at a baseball or soccer game/match.

[rkmsuf]

so you are 100ish...

[Fritz]

ish

but youngerthan Bucc

[Craptacular]

Well, given that you might get upset if I had Colin Farrell, John Cusack and Brad Pitt stashed in the closet,

No. Please do, and don't ever let them out.

[sterlingice]

No. Please do, and don't ever let them out.
In fact, I can think of a lot more people I'd like to add to this closet. Tho, the only offensive one to me in that group is Cusack and Brad Pitt has been in some movies I've liked. Maybe we can all shove them in like some college phone booth stunt and then lock the door.

SI

[cuervo72]

No. Please do, and don't ever let them out.

We've been waiting for Brad Pitt to come out of the closet for quite some time.

[Radii]

Brad Pitt makes too many good movies to lock away. Fight Club and Snatch alone give him a free pass for pretty much the rest of his career.