OT: Hold 'Em Hand Discussion

[primelord]

Typical low limit hold 'em game. I am in the SB and I am dealt:

9s 9h

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, primelord raises, BB re-raises, UTG caps, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, primelord calls, BB calls.

This seemed like an easy value raise to me. Assuming the BB makes the call I am getting the odds to flop my set so pumping more money into the pot seemed to make sense. Now when the BB made it 3 bets and UTG limp re-raises to cap it I am pretty certain I am behind, but with all that money in the pot I figure I have to call 2 cold and hope I hit a 9.

7 players see the flop (29 sb's):

Jc Tc 9d

primelord bets, BB raises, UTG re-raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO caps it, Button calls, primelord folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

The BB raise didn't scare me since he had been playing pretty loose and despite all the preflop action would have raised with top pair, and the UTG raise didn't scare me because I am almost certain with his limp re-raise preflop that he is sitting on A's. However the cap from the CO smells like KQ or maybe pocket 10's to me. I can't imagine what else he might be holding that he 1) didn't raise first with prefolp and 2) called 3 cold with preflop. I guess pocket J's make some sense with so many limpers in front or maybe even Q's or K's, but I can't imagine he wouldn't have raised the first time through with those. So despite the fact I hit my set I decided to fold even though I was getting 15:1 on my money (even more actually because the BB and UTG were very likely to call behind me as they did) because if I am up against a bigger set I am drawing to only 1 out and the action on the turn is likely to be very expensive.

5 players to the turn (25 BB's):

[Jc Tc 9d] Jh

BB bets, UTG raises, MP2 calls, CO re-raises, Button calls, BB caps it, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls

And the pot continues to get insanely big. As I figured I would have had to put 4 bets into the pot to continue and even though I made the full house I might have still been drawing dead or near dead.

5 players to the river (45 BB's):

[Jc Tc 9d Jh] 2d

BB bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls

Final pot: 50 BB's


So how did I do? Would you have played the hand any differently?

[Chubby]

I think you played it mostly right but I would have stayed in til the end with a set post-flop. Most likely, people were betting the straight and flush draws post-flop (if they hadn't already hit a straight but that would have meant calling a cap pre-flop with K-Q or 8-7). Me personally, I would have stayed in after the flop and most definately stayed after that 2nd jack hit on 4th street but I can see how one may look at folding. Pot odds and and the set on the flop would keep me in that hand however.

I assume A-J won the pot?

[SirFozzie]

I agree. Too many hands that can beat you. Too many bets. Get out while you could.

[Vegas Vic]

There's no way I lay this hand down, especially on PartyPoker. On the flop, You're way ahead of AA and KK. The only hands that you're drawing thin against are JJ and TT. Even against KQ, you've got tons of outs with two cards to come. One of these guys is likely to have something like AcXc, and he's capping for value if the third club falls.

The final pot is huge with 50 BB's. Are you going to win this pot on Party more than 1 out of 50 times 9's full of jacks?

[Chubby]

I agree. Too many hands that can beat you. Too many bets. Get out while you could.

What could beat him? 2 conceivable hands (10-10 and j-j) and 1 medium shot hand (k-q) and one longshot hand (8-7).

Unless you are counting the straight and flush draw hands that were most likely being bet on and possible raised with.

I am curious as to what ended up winning, I still think A-J took it with only 1 bet after the river.

[primelord]

There's no way I lay this hand down, especially on PartyPoker. On the flop, You're way ahead of AA and KK. The only hands that you're drawing thin against are JJ and TT. Even against KQ, you've got tons of outs with two cards to come. One of these guys is likely to have something like AcXc, and he's capping for value if the third club falls.

The final pot is huge with 50 BB's. Are you going to win this pot on Party more than 1 out of 50 times 9's full of jacks?
Just to clarify this wasn't on party poker, but was in a live session at the casino. Not that it matters much because the people at the table were probably worse than even your average party poker game. But I just wanted to calrify. :)

[Chubby]

what won?

[Chubby]

i have a feeling this may end up like my final hand last night for me, it's too brutal to describe tho...

[primelord]

what won?
The CO flipped over pocket Q's out of turn and everyone else mucked. Needless to say I had to step away from the table for awhile and collect myself.

So the good news was I had a guy at my table who misplayed pocket Q's on every street. And even better several guys who were happy to re-raise with hands that couldn't even beat that. The bad news was I ended up giving up a 50 BB pot before I learned that!!!

I thought a long time before I mucked them and when the second J hit I figured I probably just passed on what was going to be a huge pot, but ya live and learn I guess. :)

[Subby]

The CO flipped over pocket Q's out of turn and everyone else mucked. Needless to say I had to step away from the table for awhile and collect myself.How does that work? He flipped over his cards during the last round of betting??

[SirFozzie]

Subby: No, after the last round of bets called, he flipped his queens out of turn (the showdown), and since everybody else couldn't beat that, they tossed in their cards.

[Vegas Vic]

I thought a long time before I mucked them and when the second J hit I figured I probably just passed on what was going to be a huge pot, but ya live and learn I guess. :)

Since it's unlikely that you'll be folding a set on the flop anytime in the next ten years, I wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about whether you should have folded.

[primelord]

How does that work? He flipped over his cards during the last round of betting??Low limit live players have a habit of showing down their hands out of turn. I think this guy actually did it out of disgust after pumping his overpair and OESD and never improving and was pretty shocked when everyone else tossed their cards.

Edit: Clarified my statement a bit.

[primelord]

Since it's unlikely that you'll be folding a set on the flop anytime in the next ten years, I wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about whether you should have folded.
Yeah I pretty much learned my lesson. If I hit a set on the flop from now on I am either going to get paid off or go down with the ship.

[Chubby]

that happens all the time at turning stone, usually cause the "in turn" player doesn't want to show his crappy cards.

[Chubby]

Yeah I pretty much learned my lesson. If I hit a set on the flop from now on I am either going to get paid off or go down with the ship.

i mean, worst case scenario is 4th street produces a Q, 8, or another club to which then you'd have some decisions to make but even then I'd try and limp through if there's only 1 bet out there.

[Subby]

In what order do you have to show? Same order as the betting went (SB, BB...etc)?

[primelord]

In what order do you have to show? Same order as the betting went (SB, BB...etc)?
The last person to lead the betting or raising has to show. So in this case the BB should have showed first and then one by one through the normal order. Had it been checked to CO and he made the first bet and then everyone called he would have been right to show first. Or had he raised in this case and everyone just called.

[Vegas Vic]

In what order do you have to show? Same order as the betting went (SB, BB...etc)?

If it's a called pot, the last bettor/raiser has to show first. If the river is checked around, the player to the left of the buttons shows first, then it's rotated around.

[primelord]

Dola,

Since the CO had the high hand it didn't matter much for him as he would have showed anyway, but his out of turn show cost himself and the rest of the table some pretty valuable information such as what the hell UTG would limp re-raise (cap) with preflop that couldn't beat a pair of Q's

[primelord]

If the river is checked around, the player to the left of the buttons shows first, then it's rotated around.
Is this true in all casinos? I had a situation during the same session where I was the CO and the SB was the only other one in the hand. I was first to bet on the turn and he called and then we both checked through the river and the dealer forced me to show first. She said I was last to bet so I had to show. I didn't think it was correct, but the table all seemed to agree so I had little choice.

[Chubby]

Dola,

Since the CO had the high hand it didn't matter much for him as he would have showed anyway, but his out of turn show cost himself and the rest of the table some pretty valuable information such as what the hell UTG would limp re-raise (cap) with preflop that couldn't beat a pair of Q's

Anyone who called the last bet could have asked to be showed the cards of any of the other callers who mucked.