OT - Short-handed Texas Hold 'em

[QuikSand]

I've been playing a fair amount of in-person poker recently, in a variety of forms. We've had plenty of discussion about hold 'em here, so I thought I'd toss this out -- it's an area where I think my play can improve.

I recently sat at a table with five players -- fixed-limit poker ($4/$8) and it was pretty clear that's all we'd have to play. This game, as it turns out, is fully raked ($1 per $10 up to $3) and we're tipping dealers... meaning there's a lot less margin for winning than I might expect in a cleaner setup.

Generally, at a full table of 10 players I am a very tight, pretty aggressive player. I try to stay away from kicker problems, and avoid playing nominally strong hands like KT and QT unless the setup warrants it. I tend to raise with my strong hands, insluding strong aces, and will almost always follow up my pre-flop raises with bets or raises (representing the big pair even if I don't have it).

Anyway - at a smaller table, the rules bend a bit. The standard for what to play should come down, and I think the game gets more personal (where reading players is even more important). My last two sessions playing at a short table with fixed betting found me feeling a little uncertain about how I should be playing.


Anyone out there have general thoughts about playing at a short-handed table with fixed limits? Five or six players... no big jackpots involved (this isn't no-limit or spread limit, where margina hands might want to hang around to get paid big at the end).

[Radii]

I play an awful lot of short games online, in the past two months I have played nothing but $50 single table tournaments, and 5/10 6 max tables on partypoker, I guess around 10,000 hands at the short tables with a fair amount of success.

Reading players is much more important than at a full table. There are numerous strategies that can work against different tables.

When you sit down at a new table and don't know how the players will play short-handed, you have two choices. a) Watch them go at each other and watch the betting patterns and stay out of the way unless you have a big hand, or b) Play any playable hand you get like its the nuts (unless you are given very good reason to slow down by an opponent) and just see how they react.

You definitely have to loosen up at these tables. I go by feel really, there are 6 man tables when I'm playing well and have a good feel for the table, where I will raise any suited ace in any position pre-flop (if I'm the first raiser). These are tables which are pretty passive and its rare that I'm going to get played back at, I'm just taking control of the hand and trying to bet people out of my pot.

I think at the table you're talking about, you have to see what these guys are raising with pre-flop, and figure out how they're playing post flop. Can you push back at them and slow them down easily? Will they continue to bet every time post flop whether they've hit or missed? Are they raising with aces and pocket pairs only or will they go hard with other hands?

How are they playing after the flop? Can you get someone to fold? Some people, once they see the flop, will turn into calling stations. Don't bluff these guys. If they play enough hands, then if you're heads up on the flop you can quite possibly bet Ace high for value. But if they are in the least selective then you need to catch a little piece of the flop first. The hyper-agressive players, you have to figure out what they'll be agressive with, and when you think you've got a good hand you have to be able to push back at them. Being the one "in control" of the hand is extremely important. Against agressive players who will back down without a made hand when you play back at them, take control of the hands you want to be in and make them follow your lead instead of having them betting into you and making you try to figure out what they have.

Mixing up your play becomes even more important as well, because people will be paying more attention to you. One of the things I try to do when I'm running okay at a short table is find a spot to play a middle suited connector hard. Give me 78s, I'll raise it pre-flop,and if I catch anything close to a piece of the flop, I'll bet it. I won't bet it all the way without at least a pair, but I want to advertise that I'll play anything hard at any time, I don't want to do this without at least a chance to win, but I do want to show down a hand like that that i've played agressively at some point, it makes my aces a ton stronger later on.

When I play these tables online, I avoid the table you're talking about, where there are multiple agressive players. You have to have great reads on them, and the variance is bigger. I hop around until I find a table with at least 1 or two passive players, without them I have a lot of trouble unless the deck is hitting me over the head.


Other general ideas are that middle pair is often good, and you have to have the read on players and their betting habits to know when you can push with middle pair or when you have to slow down and/or fold.

Draws aren't as valuable in the same sense as they would be from a pure pot odds perspective, but I like to play them a lot anyway. 89 suited loses some of its value because you won't have the right number of opponents to draw, but it re-gains some value because simply pairing your 8 or 9 are good for a win fairly often. I also like using these hands as my "mix it up" hands.


I realize that's all very general, and I think playing a short table successfully depends so much on playing by feel and reading opponents that its hard to be too specific. In general, figure out how the table plays, do you have to show down the best hand every time or can you bet your opponents out and go from there.

Any of that useful? any specific types of hands/positions/situations you are interested in?

[primelord]

Just some general thoughts.

There is a premium on aggression in short handed games. For the most part anythign you would play you should open-raise with. In a 5 handed game you are essentially playing from the late middle position on so you want to be aggressive.

Obviously big cards gain value and drawing hands lose value in a short handed game since the odds to draw are not there as often.

I don't know how good the people were that you were playing against, but a lot of the bad players I have played against think that catching any piece of the pot even it is only bottom pair is worth jamming the pot with. Certainly bottom pair is going to be good mor eoften 5 handed than 10 handed, but since you are still going to have better starting hand requirements you can really punish these people.

Again I think aggression is the key. Both good and bad players have weaker raising standards in a short handed game. So for example in a full game if you had AJo and UTG came in for raise most of the time I would assume you lay down that hand (obviously it depends on the player) however in a short handed game that is an easy re-raise. It is much easier to get it heads up with the raiser and there is a much wider range of hands he would be willing to open raise with.

[Radii]

A couple of other general thoughts that I didn't mention in my first post.

Unless you have a rock on your right, you have to defend your blinds a lot harder than you would in a full game. re-raising the dealer/SB with an ace to try to take control of a hand, calling with weaker hands than normal and playing hard if I catch anything to try to catch them on a steal, things like that, become important. But again, reading people is so important. When I play these games, I am a bit more selective when I try to steal in general, I don't like doign it without a halfway decent hand, if I'm played back at, I'm capping it. If I'm in the SB, I'll give the BB the pot often enough that when I try to steal, he'd better have a hand to play with me. I do this because my post-flop play needs work when I try to steal with a weak hand, often I'll push too hard later on. If there's a rock to your right, respect his steals, etc. All standard ideas, but they are amplified in a short game.

The other general ideas is that against most players you have to make more "crying calls" on the river. You have bottom pair/ace kicker and you are pretty sure you're beat, you probably need to call a bet anyway(or make the bet yourself if you don't fear a re-raise) a ton more often in a short game than you would in a full game. If you had a good draw that ended up just being ace high, you want to call on the river a fair amount of the time against most players.

Online, well, unfortunately at partypoker, they only have these short games at 1/2 and 5/10, though you can go to 3/6 and look for tables with less players, though they often fill up. 1/2 on party, you have to show down the best hand more often than not. 5/10 is a lot more player dependant, there are some absolutely terrible players who will allow you to double your buy-in in 15 mintues often enough, but there are some very very good players there too that scare the heck out of me.

[QuikSand]

In general, how do you play hands like Ax offsuit at a short table?

I'm generally playing them, and in position raising them -- to good results in the short term. Generally, at a full table, I lay down hands liek these.

But if I can isolate down to two players, and I'm holding an ace -- I figure that fairly often I've got the edge in the fairly likely situation that we both miss the flop - and I can bet out, keeping up the pressure, which is often enough to win. If I do catch the ace, I don't have the same reserve I usually do at a full table - I wil even check raise with just a pair of aces, no kicker.

Any thoughts on that, specifically?

[primelord]

You can certainly play Ax more often, but in the long run I think you are still going to see poor results playing A5o UTG etc. However for example I would open raise with A9o if UTg fold etc. You still probably want to consider raising with any Ax you are going to play from any position. If you just limp in from UTG with A4 you are just asking the guy with A6 to call you and when you both hit an A neither one of you will lay it down. However he might have layed it down to a raise.

[Radii]

In general, how do you play hands like Ax offsuit at a short table?

I'm generally playing them, and in position raising them -- to good results in the short term. Generally, at a full table, I lay down hands liek these.

But if I can isolate down to two players, and I'm holding an ace -- I figure that fairly often I've got the edge in the fairly likely situation that we both miss the flop - and I can bet out, keeping up the pressure, which is often enough to win. If I do catch the ace, I don't have the same reserve I usually do at a full table - I wil even check raise with just a pair of aces, no kicker.


It sounds like you are probably playing these aces correctly. If your raise will get people out of the pot, will buy you position, and will give you a chance to buy the pot on the flop even if you miss, then it's a good raise. If you're going to play this hand, you need to raise it to take control of the hand. You can't limp/call with Ax and win Ace-High very often, but if you're the one betting and raising with it you will take down more than your share of pots.


On the flop, if I catch my ace, I will bet, and if raised I will re-raise under almost any circumstances. If I'm capped then I will slow down on the turn, I probably won't fold unless I have a great read on the player, but I will probaly check/call the rest of the way.

If I don't catch my ace, then it's a matter of deciding whether you have a shot at taking the pot down if you bet the entire way, or deciding that you're probably beaten and check/calling or check/folding depending on your impression on where you stand.


Playing these is table dependant. If you're up against too many stubborn players who won't go away when you bet Ax hard, then you probably won't make much money from it. If i'm on the button and two players have limped to me, I tighten up my raising requirements a bit, given the propensity of players to call a raise when they already ahve a bet on the table. I don't want to raise my Ax and have the big blind and both limpers call me. I'm usually out of that hand quickly without pairing my ace.

Also I'm not likely to call a raise with A6o for example, though there are exceptions. If the player making the raise raises *a lot* (he may have an ace, but he is just as likely to have a low pocket pair or any other type of hand), then I might call a raise from the blind with my ace and take control of the hand if I hit. This is dangerous and can lose you a lot of money if you are up against the ace/better kicker, but I have made a lot of money doing this against the right players.

[primelord]

Playing these is table dependant. If you're up against too many stubborn players who won't go away when you bet Ax hard, then you probably won't make much money from it. If i'm on the button and two players have limped to me, I tighten up my raising requirements a bit, given the propensity of players to call a raise when they already ahve a bet on the table. I don't want to raise my Ax and have the big blind and both limpers call me. I'm usually out of that hand quickly without pairing my ace.
Why wouldn't you want to raise that Ax from the button with two limpers? The Ax is going to play better 3 way than 5 way if the blinds call, you have position on the players, and given that they have limped in you probably have the best hand. If you aren't going to raise it from the button then I think you are better off folding it. Like you mentioned several times raising allows you to take control of the hand. You hopefully lose the blinds with the raise and will likely get checked to on the flop. Then you can decide how you want to play the hand from there. Assuming you miss your ace you can bet out hoping to take the pot down there or take the free card and hope to catch your ace on the turn.

[Radii]

Why wouldn't you want to raise that Ax from the button with two limpers? The Ax is going to play better 3 way than 5 way if the blinds call, you have position on the players, and given that they have limped in you probably have the best hand. If you aren't going to raise it from the button then I think you are better off folding it. Like you mentioned several times raising allows you to take control of the hand. You hopefully lose the blinds with the raise and will likely get checked to on the flop. Then you can decide how you want to play the hand from there. Assuming you miss your ace you can bet out hoping to take the pot down there or take the free card and hope to catch your ace on the turn.


Depends on the table and the players, and there are certainly times that I will, but I think it depends on the kicker and whether I'm suited a little bit more than it would have if there was just one limper. the reason is that against 3 opponents, one of them is a lot more likely to hit the flop. 3-way is fine but in that situation there is a real risk of 4-way and an outside chance of 5-way. Against 3 random opponents who do not have an ace or a pocket pair I'm only going to have the best hand 30% of the time. With 3 opponents someone's going to hit the flop fairly often.

I raise a lot of hands pre-flop, and the image I attempt to set up for myself is that of someone who will raise with anything and continue to bet hard whether I have anything or not. I want my opponents to have no idea whether I have KK or 56s. When I successfully set up this image, a lot of opponents will call me down with bottom pair. I win a *lot* of $60-$70 pots at 5/10 with middle/top pair because bottom pair calls me all the way, and I win a lot of $30 pots because people fold to my bets with ace-high.

If I think i'm likely to have 4 opponents, it becomes a situation where I feel i'm likely going to have to show down the best hand, and I don't like being in that situation with A5o. I either want to be suited to give me the additional chance of a draw, or to have a kicker in the 8-9 range so that if I pair my low card it has a good chance of at least being middle pair.


And after all of that reply, I read more carefully and saw:

If you aren't going to raise it from the button then I think you are better off folding it.

Ahh, I see the confusion, I said "I'm out of it quickly if i don't pair the ace" in my earlier post, implying a preference to limp... yeah, a lot of times I will just fold in this situation, though I didn't specify it. If the table is loose and I'm going to end up with 4 or 5-way action, I might limp and hope for a great flop, or i might raise sometimes, but I'm not as fond of a raise here if it won't narrow down the field enough. but against many table lineups, I'll just fold A5o here. If I dont' have a good enough read on enough of the players to believe I have a chance at winning A5o 4-way without improving, then I'll just fold it many times. This is a trouble spot for me, and I just avoid the situation, a better one will come up soon enough.

[primelord]

Ahh, I see the confusion, I said "I'm out of it quickly if i don't pair the ace" in my earlier post, implying a preference to limp... yeah, a lot of times I will just fold in this situation, though I didn't specify it. If the table is loose and I'm going to end up with 4 or 5-way action, I might limp and hope for a great flop, or i might raise sometimes, but I'm not as fond of a raise here if it won't narrow down the field enough. but against many table lineups, I'll just fold A5o here. If I dont' have a good enough read on enough of the players to believe I have a chance at winning A5o 4-way without improving, then I'll just fold it many times. This is a trouble spot for me, and I just avoid the situation, a better one will come up soon enough.
Yes that was the confusion. I misunderstood and thought you were saying you should limp in that spot. I agree with pretty much everything you said above except I still don't think I would ever limp with this hand. I think the play here should be to raise or fold and that it is table specific which play is best.