OT: Keeping score puzzle (ANSWER)

[KevinNU7]

This is even more proof that I am constantly thinking of possible new puzzles for you all ... even when my mind ought to be focused elsewhere.


This is part of two spectators' conversation as a game progresses.

- - - - -

A: What's the score now?
B: It's three to five, Jones leads.

...a few seconds pass...

A: What's the score now?
B: It's four to five, Jones leads.

...a few seconds pass...

A: What's the score now?
B: It's four to three, Jones leads.


If we wait until after one more score, and the game is still going on at that point - what will be the score?

The answer is Tennis

I don't like it, I'm not grasping the 5 to 3 score as a game score.

[cuervo72]

so 5 to 3 is the score? I'm not following here, where's the explanation?

[henry296]

The next score is 4-4 or deuce.

[cuervo72]

The next score is 4-4 or deuce.

Who the hell refers to scores in tennis as 3, 4, or 5?

[Maple Leafs]

Henry, could we get a more-detailed explanation?

Edit: Never mind, hadn't noticed that Henry had posted it in another thread.

[henry296]

Check my other post....

The answer to Quiksand's puzzle is deuce from tennis.

You typically her the scoring go 15,30,40,game, but often people go 5,3,4. The scoring went 30-15 (3 to 5), 40-15 (4 to 5) then 40-30 (4 to 3). If the game is still going on the person with 30 would win the point and have 40-40 (4 to 4) or deuce. If the person with 40 wins the point the game is over and since Q said the game was still going on it is 4-4.

Todd

[VPI97]

You typically her the scoring go 15,30,40,game, but often people go 5,3,4.I have never heard people use 5,3,4 to score tennis.

Maybe I've been sheltered my whole life....

Maybe tennis people don't like me...

Why don't tennis people like me??




Someone hold me please...

[cuervo72]

but often people go 5,3,4

This is a damned elitist puzzle.


I've never heard Bud Collins use '5', '3', or '4' on any tennis telecasts I've seen.

[QuikSand]

If you haven't played tennis very much, then I recognize that you lack the essential bit of information necesary to solve the puzzle.

However, the 0-5-3-4 scoring convention is very common among those who play a lot. Even if you're not a regular player, it's likely you have played with someone or beside someone who has scored this way.

Sorry if it doesn't sit well with you if you're in the "never heard of it" boat. I still like the puzzle, but didn't mean any undue stress, of course.

[Maple Leafs]

I've never heard of that scoring system, but I've never played much tennis either.

I guess my question would be: for those who do know the scoring system, did you get the puzzle right away or did it still require some "puzzling" to figure out?

[KevinNU7]

However, the 0-5-3-4 scoring convention is very common among those who play a lot. Even if you're not a regular player, it's likely you have played with someone or beside someone who has scored this way. Wouldn't 0,1,3,4 be a less moronic way of keeping score?

[VPI97]

Sounds like more of a riddle than a puzzle...

[digamma]

What if the puzzle had read as follows

This is part of two spectators' conversation as a game progresses.

- - - - -

A: What's the score now?
B: It's y to z, Jones leads.

...a few seconds pass...

A: What's the score now?
B: It's x to z, Jones leads.

...a few seconds pass...

A: What's the score now?
B: It's x to y, Jones leads.


If we wait until after one more score, and the game is still going on at that point - what will be the score?

Would people have gotten tennis that way?

[Maple Leafs]

I think the big problem with the puzzle is that it's unrealistic. It should have been presented like this:

A: What's the score now?
B: It's three to five, Jones leads.

...a few seconds pass...

A: What's the score now?
B: It's four to five, Jones leads.

...a few seconds pass...

A: What's the score now?
B: Sweet mother of christ, would you pay attention! The game is being played right in front of you! Either watch the damn game or shut up about it already!

(Where, of course, B is me and A is my wife.)

[QuikSand]

Wouldn't 0,1,3,4 be a less moronic way of keeping score?

It's not that the actual score is 5... it's still 15. 3 for 30, 4 for 40. It's just an abbreviation. It's widely used, honestly. Sorry that doesn't sit well with you.


But more on point... yes, I suppose it would be less moronic. But it's not what they do.

If I based the puzzle around a set of abbreviations that I personally find appealing but never told anyone about -- I think you'd be perfectly well grounded in attacing me for such a stupid puzzle.

I didn't pick the abbreviations. I just used the facts that (a) they are in wide use, and (b) they are obviously moronic to construct a puzzle from them.

[QuikSand]

Would people have gotten tennis that way?

If you point is that I just picked some numbers out of my ass and plugged them into this puzzle, you are missing the point.

Millions of tennis players announce scores in these exact terms on the tennis court-- saying "4 to 5" when the actual score is 40 to 15. It is very common.

[QuikSand]

I've never heard of that scoring system, but I've never played much tennis either.

I guess my question would be: for those who do know the scoring system, did you get the puzzle right away or did it still require some "puzzling" to figure out?

For what it's worth, I got two correct answers by PM within the first 15 minutes of posting the puzzle, two more some time later (though I can't tell when those people started thinking about it) and another after a hint or two.

[Maple Leafs]

I don't think there's really any way around the fact that people who don't know that particular fact about tennis are just SOL when it comes to this puzzle. I don't think there's any way you can rephrase it to make it work for those folks.

If there's enough people who do know that factoid, and they get a challenge from solving the puzzle, then that's enough to make it worthwhile.

[QuikSand]

I don't think there's really any way around the fact that people who don't know that particular fact about tennis are just SOL when it comes to this puzzle.

Well put, and I agree. It's essentially a part puzzle, part trivia exercise... but if you don't know the trivia, you won't be able to solve it. I really don't have a basic objection to a puzzle of this sort (actually, some of the best "lateral thinking" puzzles depend on this sort of twist as well) but it's a level beyond something that's pure logic or mathematics, I recognize.

[digamma]

If you point is that I just picked some numbers out of my ass and plugged them into this puzzle, you are missing the point.

Millions of tennis players announce scores in these exact terms on the tennis court-- saying "4 to 5" when the actual score is 40 to 15. It is very common.That wasn't my point at all.

I am familiar with using the abbreviated terminology. (I'm more familiar with the use of 5 instead of 15 and calling the score 5-40 or 30-5. I've only heard 3 and 4 used on occasion.)

My posting the question was simply a thought exercise on my part--I was wondering if people were getting thrown off by the specific terminology used because a) they weren't familiar with tennis at all or b) they weren't familiar with this specific tennis abbreviation. The progression from that thought was to step back and wonder if you could solve the puzzle without reference to the terminology. There were other hints there, the use of the terms game and point, for example. I guess the people who fell into category a) would still be out of luck, but those in category b) might have been able to use the other clues to solve the puzzle.

[QuikSand]

That wasn't my point at all.

My mistake - I thought you were joining the attack.

[Maple Leafs]

Well put, and I agree. It's essentially a part puzzle, part trivia exercise... but if you don't know the trivia, you won't be able to solve it. I really don't have a basic objection to a puzzle of this sort (actually, some of the best "lateral thinking" puzzles depend on this sort of twist as well) but it's a level beyond something that's pure logic or mathematics, I recognize.It could have been worse. It could have been one of those dumb puzzles where you're expected to know the names of members of the baseball hall of fame...

[albionmoonlight]

There may be a way to make a variation of this puzzle . . .

What's the score: 3-5 Jones

What's the score: 4-5 Jones

What's the score: 3-1 Smith

Between Q2 and Q3, Jones won the game. The next question then asked what the score was, and the respondent answered with the fact that Smith was leading 3 sets to 1--something that would be a natural answer to the two parties to the conversation.

[cuervo72]

However, the 0-5-3-4 scoring convention is very common among those who play a lot. Even if you're not a regular player, it's likely you have played with someone or beside someone who has scored this way.

I guess my whole frustration with the puzzle was that I didn't know the terminology, so I had to rack my brain to try to come up with an answer which I just wasn't going to get (I had played tennis on occasion as a kid - my grandfather was and is still a regular tennis player, and he's 80 - and am generally familiar with the scoring). Then, the link was referred to someone else who I guess had tennis knowledge, and he immediately knew what the puzzle was getting at. I would think that with that knowledge, it really isn't a puzzle but just a brief mental exercise.

I actually like the basic premise and setup of the puzzle, yet at the same time it seems flawed (sorry) because it hinges on one piece of knowledge.

[tucker342]

I was actually thinking that it was tennis... but then I figured I was wrong.:(

Guess I wasn't

[KevinNU7]

It's not that the actual score is 5... it's still 15. 3 for 30, 4 for 40. It's just an abbreviation. It's widely used, honestly. Sorry that doesn't sit well with you.


But more on point... yes, I suppose it would be less moronic. But it's not what they do.

If I based the puzzle around a set of abbreviations that I personally find appealing but never told anyone about -- I think you'd be perfectly well grounded in attacing me for such a stupid puzzle.

I didn't pick the abbreviations. I just used the facts that (a) they are in wide use, and (b) they are obviously moronic to construct a puzzle from them. I wasn't harping on your answer to the puzzle, I was more complaining that "tennis fans" would say 0,5,3,4 when 0,1,3,4 is the same abbreviation for each number (first number in each two digit number 15-1, 30-3, 40-4) using a 5 doesn't make any sense but to try and confuse people.

I consider myself a pretty decent tennis fan and I've never heard of this scoring.

[corbes]

I've played some tennis, but didn't know the convention.

At least I learned something today.

Good puzzle, Quik.

[corbes]

dola-

I just "got" all the references to games in Quik's initial post. I thought it was a little fishy that he kept referring to it as a game -- too many times, as if he was trying to draw attention to the term.

(edit: Well, I guess it was only twice. But they were conspicuous.)

And still I didn't put it all together. Argh.

[gstelmack]

That wasn't my point at all.

I am familiar with using the abbreviated terminology. (I'm more familiar with the use of 5 instead of 15 and calling the score 5-40 or 30-5. I've only heard 3 and 4 used on occasion.)

My posting the question was simply a thought exercise on my part--I was wondering if people were getting thrown off by the specific terminology used because a) they weren't familiar with tennis at all or b) they weren't familiar with this specific tennis abbreviation. The progression from that thought was to step back and wonder if you could solve the puzzle without reference to the terminology. There were other hints there, the use of the terms game and point, for example. I guess the people who fell into category a) would still be out of luck, but those in category b) might have been able to use the other clues to solve the puzzle.
I was thrown off by the terminology (I used to play tennis, and had never heard the abbreviation system). Look at the discussion: I for one was trying to come up with a game where you LOST points, but shuffleboard and curling just didn't fit the scoring system used. If you don't know the terminology, it does throw you, because it looks like someone lost points during a round.

[Samdari]

Check my other post....

The answer to Quiksand's puzzle is deuce from tennis.

You typically her the scoring go 15,30,40,game, but often people go 5,3,4.

I have never heard that before.

[gstelmack]

Surprisingly, this site: http://tennis.about.com/cs/beginners/a/beginnerscore.htm does talk about an alternate scoring system, but it uses "1,2,3" in place of "15,30,40". That's the first reference I've found yet to an alternate score reporting for tennis. I can't find any mention of the 5,3,4 system.

[QuikSand]

I can't find any mention of the 5,3,4 system.

It's not a system. They are not the actual scores.

They are just the words people say to shorten the discussion. Abbreviations.

It's not what Bud Collins would say on television, nor what they would say in the scoring of an official match in any kind of formal setting.

But if you have two regular players, playing down at the country club against one another, odds are pretty good that they are announcing the score to one another as "four-five" when it's forty to fifteen.

[RPI-Fan]

Whenever I've played (four years of high school), I used "five" for "fifteen", but had never heard anybody substitute for "fourty" and "thirty". Not complaining, guess it's just a regional-type barrier, or something.

*shurg*

[cuervo72]

But if you have two regular players, playing down at the country club against one another, odds are pretty good that they are announcing the score to one another as "four-five" when it's forty to fifteen.

This puzzle was culturally biased!

[gstelmack]

But if you have two regular players, playing down at the country club against one another, odds are pretty good that they are announcing the score to one another as "four-five" when it's forty to fifteen.
Not trying to be a nit, but I really am curious about the system. I've been doing web searches off and on during the morning (lots of compiles :D ) and I just can't find any mention of the system other than here. Others know about it, though, so it must exist, I just have no idea where it came from, where it gets used, etc. It's admittedly been about 10 years since I played tennis with anyone outside my immediate family, but I had never heard anybody do this. I'm curious to find out if this is limited to one region (like cuervo said, cultural bias) or if it is in fact widespread.

It's more of a trivia exercise for me now than any commentary on the particular puzzle. I was interested to find mention of a shorthand scoring system that wasn't this one...

[QuikSand]

I don't have any idea where to direct you, other than perhaps your local park or rec center, where they'd have tennis courts. I can't even count the number of times that I have been out playing tennis when the neighboring players (especially if they are fairly serious male players) can be overheard using this scoring method. Four-five, three-five, etc.

I'm not too surprised that it's difficult to document on the internet -- it's definitely unofficial, just an abbreviation rather than a true alternative scoring system.

Sorry I'm getting defensive -- as you know tone doesn't carry over well in this setting, and it's hard to tell the difference between curiosity and criticism. I'm tired and cranky today anyway for other reasons... didn't mean to bite back needlessly.

[rkmsuf]

sooo saying something like "tennis is stupid anyway" is probably a bad thing?

[Butter]

I've heard people use this scoring system. But then I played a lot of tennis through high school and college.

And I can't believe this thread is 37 posts long.

[gstelmack]

Sorry I'm getting defensive -- as you know tone doesn't carry over well in this setting, and it's hard to tell the difference between curiosity and criticism. I'm tired and cranky today anyway for other reasons... didn't mean to bite back needlessly.
Well, that and you posted a puzzle to entertain us and we're all crying "no fair!"

I have found one officemate who has heard of 5-for-15, but that's it. I'll continue searching. I can't believe the Internet is letting me down on this. You can find a video with a kid playing out his Star Wars fantasy, but I can't find a list of alternate tennis scoring rules...