Lakers move on

[MrBug708]

I hope it's Minnesota. There aren't any Kings fans here :)

[Eaglesfan27]

I hope it's Minnesota as well. I think that matchup will be a very interesting series.

[Hurst2112]

And I thought Minnesota would have a hard time with the Spurs when they met them.

DUH on me.

[kingfc22]

Bring on the Kings. I have so many bandwagon Kings fans in my area that it would be so fun to beat them again.

[Chief Rum]

Who needs Kings fans when there are Laker haters?

CR

[MrBug708]

Good point Chief

[sovereignstar]

I hope it's Minnesota. There aren't any Kings fans here :)
Franklinnoble might disagree.

[Neuqua]

Don't think it matters anymore.

San Antonio was the only team left who could beat LA, congrats to them.

[Franklinnoble]

Bah. The Kings stunk out the joint in Game 5. I think the wheels are falling off the bus....

[Lathum]

Don't think it matters anymore.

San Antonio was the only team left who could beat LA, congrats to them.
I dissagree, the T-Wolves can really give the Lakers a hard time with the match up's. Eventhough the Lakers have the expierience look at the matchup's.

Noboby on the Lakers can guard Garnett which means Shaq or Malone will be in foul trouble, and if Garnett is hitting his outside shots lookout. The T-Wolves have enough guys like Oliwakandi to waste fouls on Shaq.

Sprewell can guard Kobe as well as Kobe can be guarded and will get some points of his own.

Casell has expierience and allways hits big shots and will give Payton a hard time. Plus the Wolves have guys like Hoiberg who can step out and hit big shots.

I'm not saying the wolves would win or that it would be an aesy series, however there are enough matchups that they will pose alot of problems for an aging Laker team. Plus the TWolves have homecourt.

[Antmeister]

Being a long time Lakers fan, I would have to agree with Lathum. I think Minnesota will pose more matchup problems than Sacremento. Sacramento used to pose a problem when the Lakers didn't have a true power forward. That is not the case now. Casell and Sprewell makes me jittery when they are on.

[Neuqua]

Sprewell's defense is vastly overrated in my opinion. Kobe will eat him alive.

What I do like about Spree and Cassell is that they certainly won't be intimidated (I'm hoping), the Spurs lacked that killer instinct tonight and missed some open baskets which could have made it a game. Garnett does pose a matchup problem for the Lakers but there's no one who can really stop Shaq from getting his 25 and 15 on Minnesota either.

KG is one of my favorite players in the league so I would not mind one bit if he won an NBA championship, especially if they beat the Lakers on the way.

I don't see Sacramento getting past LA either. Their team has choked it away far too many times over the past season and their little window has closed. Vlade is too old, Peja and Christie never show up in the playoffs, and Webber has a history of not wanting to be *the man* when the game is on the line. THeir only hope is Bibby.

[Hurst2112]

Funny thing on the local news up here tonight.

They did a little story about how the last Wolves game wasn't on because of the triple OT Detroit/NJ game. They asked this guy in a bar how he felt about it. He said that he was 'pissed' that they showed the first game between the Pistons and...that other team "I don't even know who it was" (something along the lines of his quote). Guess he didn't even care that the 'other teams' had a more interesting game than his Wolves. He missed the first half. That's usually the half that the Wolves don't screw up.

That should give you some ideas about the fan base up here. Minnesota is the pinnacle of Fair Weathered'ness for any and all sports (possibly excluding the Wild).

[Sharpieman]

Although I hate to see the Lakers win, because I hate them (not really them, just the the wannabe Jordan and Shaq's arrogant ass), I have to hand it to them for coming back from 2-0 and winning the series. Impressive. I don't really care if the Wolves or Kings win, but I do think that whoever plays the Lakers, its going to be good NBA Final.

[Sharpieman]

dola, I didn't make a mistake at the end, I meant NBA Final, we all know the East has no chance.

[Ryche]

That should give you some ideas about the fan base up here. Minnesota is the pinnacle of Fair Weathered'ness for any and all sports (possibly excluding the Wild).

He was upset because the Twolves were playing and he couldn't see it because another game was on instead. I don't think that says anything about being fair weather. I would be the same way. If the Timberwolves are not playing, I could care less about watching the NBA, no matter how good the game is.

Actually, I agree entirely that fans here are very fair weather, I just don't think that was a proper example.

[Neuqua]

I think any of the Eastern conference teams (save Miami) can put up just as good a fight against the Lakers as any of the Western conference teams.

People have already forgotten the Nets were a 15pt 4th quarter choke job away from taking the Spurs to 7 games last year.

[Chief Rum]

He was upset because the Twolves were playing and he couldn't see it because another game was on instead. I don't think that says anything about being fair weather. I would be the same way. If the Timberwolves are not playing, I could care less about watching the NBA, no matter how good the game is.

Actually, I agree entirely that fans here are very fair weather, I just don't think that was a proper example.

I'm not so sure (about this specific example). A true fan wouldn't be ignorant of the team his guys are playing, not in the middle of a playoff series (and one that already has some games under its belt).

I think it's very likely in this specific example that this guy is caught up in the hype and upset he couldn't particpate in that hype (i.e. watch the T'Wolves, whom he no doubt didn't give one fig about a month or two ago).

That, however, says nothing about the fair-weather-nature of Minnesota fans. I have no idea what Minnesota fans are like about their sports (except that they are fanatic about hockey).

CR

[Alf]

Go Lakers !

[korme]

Trenton Hassell will be the new Kobe Stopper

[Cringer]

All i know is that there have been a ton of emergency vehicles running around with thier sirens on since last night. Then I faintly heard it, the soft sounds of people hacking on something.......that is when i realized what was going on. From four hours away, the CHOKING was so bad they called in emergency services from around south Texas to try and help the local San Antonio population.

[sovereignstar]

Trenton Hassell will be the new Kobe Stopper
Yep. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure as to why everyone believes that Spree will be guarding Kobe.

[rexallllsc]

1. Later Spurs.
2. I'd rather play Minnesota than the Kings. The Kings have given the Lakers more trouble in past years and have more horses than Minnesota.
3. Minnesota doesn't worry me.
4. Trenton Hassell = Devin Brown, Bruve Bowen, Doug Christie, etc. No one can stop Kobe.
5. The East is a total joke.

[sovereignstar]

2. I'd rather play Minnesota than the Kings. The Kings have given the Lakers more trouble in past years and have more horses than Minnesota.
But two of the big three races are already over with. Now all they do is take up barnspace and eat hay and oats (or a combination of the two).

[rexallllsc]

But two of the big three races are already over with. Now all they do is take up barnspace and eat hay and oats (or a combination of the two).

Heh.

[mckerney]

Sprewell's defense is vastly overrated in my opinion. Kobe will eat him alive.

I doubt Spree will be covering Kobe most of the time, that job will probably fall to Trenton Hassell, who has played fantastic defense this year.

I am glad that if if the Wolves move on they'll be playing the Lakers instead of the Spurs. I think the Spurs would give them more trouble.



And everyone seems to forget the championship experience that the Wolves are bringing this year with Mad Dog. How the Laker expect to win a championship without him is beyond me. :p

[rexallllsc]

I dunno about the whole Hassell thing...I mean, what have Ruben Patterson, Doug Christie, and Bruce Bowen ever done to stop Kobe?

Kobe is flat out the best 1-on-1 player in the NBA, if not the best overall player. :)

That being said, Garnett is very close to Kobe, and if the rest of the T-Wolves come to play, the Wolves could make it interesting...but KG can't do it all himself.

[finkenst]

i thought this thread was about the death of the lakers...

damn working until 5 a.m. when normally first shift sucks.

[Neuqua]

Hassell is certainly a good player but like mentioned before, he isn't going to do any better a job against Kobe than the other *stoppers* although the NBA is full of guys who can not be guarded 1 on 1, it is not just Kobe.

Kobe is one of the 6-7 best players in the league, easily, but you have to learn to look at things without the bias of the media and then you come to realize that Kobe has some very obvious flaws in his game. I think people will become aware of just how good he is (very good, not in the top 2 or top 1 like some Lakers fans think) once he doesn't he isn't the benefactor of the most dominant big man in NBA history down low.

The Lakers were the flat out better team this past series against San Antonio, as much as it pains me to say it, it is true, and congrats to them. The trophy is theirs to lose from here on out.

Say what you want about the Eastern Conference and I will even admit that outside the 4 teams on top there is very little to get excited about but the Nets, Pacers and Pistons all are very sound teams with as good a shot as anybody to beat the Western Conference teams. I bring up the Nets point from last season's NBA Finals again but everyone still wants us to think that they got the floor wiped out by San Antonio. Sigh. Detroit and New Jersey are the two best defensive teams left in the playoffs, and Indiana is the most balanced all around (offense + defense.)

[rexallllsc]

Kobe is one of the 6-7 best players in the league, easily, but you have to learn to look at things without the bias of the media and then you come to realize that Kobe has some very obvious flaws in his game. I think people will become aware of just how good he is (very good, not in the top 2 or top 1 like some Lakers fans think) once he doesn't he isn't the benefactor of the most dominant big man in NBA history down low.


Kobe's flaws are so apparent that no one has been able to shut him down. Ever.

Shaq never won without Kobe, and Kobe wouldn't win without Shaq...but I seriously don't see how Kobe isn't in the top 2. Who is better? McGrady? No...Garnett? You could make an argument, but he's never won anything.

[MrBug708]

Oh boy, here comes the Kobe isn't top 5 in the league without Shaq speech from our boy Neuq

[korme]

What are Kobe's flaws? I am by no means a Laker fan Neuqua, but Kobe IS top 5.

[Noop]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Garnett
4. Duncan
5. T-Mac

[rexallllsc]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Garnett
4. Duncan
5. T-Mac

Good list.

[korme]

1. Artest
2. Bowen
3. Hassell?

[Noop]

1. Artest
2. Bowen
3. Hassell?Naming the defensive players? Gets hard doesn't it...

1. Ben Wallace
2. Ron Artest
3. Bruce Bowen
4. Don't know
5. See Above.

[MrBug708]

Kobe's been First team All defensive team 5 years now? Garnett has been 7 years I believe? I might be off by 2 years for each though. Not sure if Kobe/Garnett are 3/5 or 5/7

[wig]

Shaq never won without Kobe, and Kobe wouldn't win without Shaq...but I seriously don't see how Kobe isn't in the top 2. Who is better? McGrady? No...Garnett? You could make an argument, but he's never won anything.

It would be hard to argue that Garnett or T-Mac couldn't win a title with Shaq.

[MrBug708]

Well, we know Penny wasn't good enough

[cthomer5000]

Well, we know Penny wasn't good enough
even Lil' Penny couldn't push them over the top. :(

[Sharpieman]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Garnett
4. Duncan
5. T-Mac
Nice biased list. Shaq hasn't won without Kobe and Kobe hasn't won without Shaq.
I would have to say
1. Shaq - Most dominate player in the league. Can't be stopped.
2. Garnett - He dominates in games and he's a more complete player than Kobe.
3. Kobe - Its hard to put him at 3 because he could very well be fourth behind Duncan. Who does Duncan have to help him out? Rasho! Kobe has Shaq. Duncan won championships with a Robinson, who was a very good player, but was a fading star when Duncan came into the picture.
3. Duncan - Its a tie, its too hard to tell who is better until we see Kobe without Shaq.
5. McGrady - He's a great player, he just doesn't have any help. I could have maybe but Kidd here, but McGrady is more talented.

[MrBug708]

Sharpieman, who won the title before the Lakers and after Jordan retired the second time?

[sovereignstar]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Garnett
4. Duncan
5. T-Mac
Where's Scottie Pippen??

[MrBug708]

Old and Injured

[Deattribution]

It's hard to use the argument of what has so and so won, both Shaq and Kobe are great players, no other team really has a combination like them, so obviously they are going to win.

I'd say the list would be more like

#1 Shaq (but slipping some with age)
#2 Duncan (he has carried a team on his own)
#3 Garnett ( great player, but hasn't proved himself to be a winner when it counts YET)
#4 Kobe (much more clutch then McGrady)
#5 McGrady (he plays in the east, that sums it up)


and If I had to pick one player to take a game winning shot, Kobe would be my choice .... and I hate the Lakers with a passion.

[Neuqua]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. McGrady
4. Shaq
5. Kobe

Ok, I take it back, Kobe did make the top 5, although I reserve the right to change it once he gets to play on his own team.

Bug, you have admitted to me outside FOFC that you're a homer when it comes to the Lakers and that next year if the Lakers trade Kobe for Tracy you will tell me that McGrady is by far the better player. You admitted it to me, so I don't want to hear you say anything.

Tracy and Kobe are very similar when it comes to abilities but Kobe has more direct flaws than Tracy does (in fact, the only weakness I can find in Mcgrady's game is his whining mouth.)

The prospectus does a 100x better job explaining it than I could ever do, but people and the media marvel at Kobe because of his abilities to make insanely tough shots, he is easily the best player in the league when it comes to doing it. He can twist, spin and contort his body in crazy ways and still have the basket go in. Outside that, there is no aspect of basketball that Tracy isn't atleast equal, if not better than Kobe in.

The big subtle difference between the two that most talking heads cant appreciate is that McGrady never turns the ball over. HIs TO ratio (7.1) was the lowest among small forwards and a far cry from Bryants 9.6. The fact he also had the league's top usage rate (34.5) is doubly impressive. Basically, he created a zillion shots without many miscues, and that alone put Orlando in the top half of the league's offenses. His overall PER of 30.25 has only been exceeded by 3 players in the last 15 years: Jordan, Shaq, David Robinson.

Most of Mcgrady's stills lie in his ability to jump straight up over a defender and nail a jumpshot. Its impressive, but its not as exciting as KObe, and that is why people tend to mistake which is the really better player. Tracy shot 39% on 3 ptrs last year and considering how many of those were taken off the dribble and under duress- he took 6 a game- incredible.

They both can be better defenders than they currently are (McGrady ranked 11th against SF, Bryant 8th against SG).

[Chief Rum]

The big subtle difference between the two that most talking heads cant appreciate is that McGrady never turns the ball over. HIs TO ratio (7.1) was the lowest among small forwards and a far cry from Bryants 9.6. The fact he also had the league's top usage rate (34.5) is doubly impressive. Basically, he created a zillion shots without many miscues, and that alone put Orlando in the top half of the league's offenses. His overall PER of 30.25 has only been exceeded by 3 players in the last 15 years: Jordan, Shaq, David Robinson.

Can I get someone to translate these statistical acronyms into English for me? Otherwise, this paragraph makes no sense to me. :)

CR

[Neuqua]

Defintions from as of John Hollinger, author of Basketball Prospectus:

Turnover Ratio: Traditional stats don't show how well a star player takes care of the ball. McGrady (since we're talking abt him) led the league in scoring, but also commited 195 TOs, far more than anyone else on the team. But what we don't know is whether his TO total was low considering how many plays he made or whether it was an accurate reflection of his ability to take care of the ball.

The turnover ratio is a measure of the number of turnovers per 100 possesions used. We calculate possessions used by adding FG attempts, assists, TOs, and FT attempts multipied by 0.44.

PER stands for Player Efficiency Rating.

I don't think I would be able to type out what exactly the Player Efficiency Rating formula is in such a short time. If you really want, I can find the formula for you online somewhere, but it takes into effect every relevant statistic, and adjusts it against league average.

[Lathum]

As great as Kobe is there are probably 20 players you could put in his place and the Lakers would win a title, you can't replace Shaq. Kobe will find this out next year playing for the Suns or wherever he ends up.

[Sharpieman]

agreed. Plus if you put really any decent SG in a lineup with 3 HOF's, Shaq, GP, Malone, you're going to be looking at a NBA title. Reminds me of when the 1994 Niners basically bought the Superbowl by adding the likes of Deion Sanders and Ken Norton Jr.

[MrBug708]

But Sharpie, what about when we won a title with 37 year old Ron Harper, Model Rick Fox, and Super Virgin AC Green with a Younger Kobe, and Shaq? The next year we had Samaki Walker and Brian Shaw in there, thats when we lost one playoff game all year.

[Neuqua]

Well in that case we are talking about Shaq being on top of his game. And in that case, you could have probably put a lot of players at Kobe's position and they would stand a very strong chance in winning.

[Sharpieman]

I'm not denying that Kobe is one of the best players in the league, he's just not the second or maybe third or fourth best player in the league. All I'm saying is that you have 4 potential hall of famers in you're lineup, you probably will win the NBA finals. I don't think think the Lakers could have done it without them this year, Shaq is fat and Kobe has his problems.

[MrBug708]

I agree that we needed a PF who could hit the open jump shot. TO think we could have traded Glen Rice for Ben Wallace or had Brian Grant decided he wanted to play in the West Coast, instead of Miami....*sigh*

[rexallllsc]

It's ok. Let the haters hate...the only player I think who can stand up to Kobe in the league is Garnett. That's it.

[Noop]

Nice biased list. Shaq hasn't won without Kobe and Kobe hasn't won without Shaq.
Bias? I am not a Lakers fan at all.

[MrBug708]

Jordan never won anything without Phil or Pippen....

[Neuqua]

Ah Phil, another coach you gotta love.

I hear next year he is going to wait and see if the San Antonio job opens up. No wait, better yet, I think he wants to coach the Cleveland Cavaliers to really get that *rebuilding* experience.