CM Questions

[Blackadar]

I'm too afraid to go to the CM boards...

Loved CM 00/01 and 01/02. Mail-ordered CM4 (since I'm in the States) and thought it lost a little flavor. Either I got sick of CM or it felt a bit sterile. I remember at the time hearing a number of complaints by old timers along these lines, but I could have been wrong.

Now 03/04 has been out a while, help refresh my memory.

Was CM4 sterile?
What's the differences between CM4 and 03/04?
Overall verdict on picking up 03/04?

[PilotMan]

Here is one persons opinion on the two.

Grabbed it off the boards.

I have both, and I know which I prefer, and I’m going to compare the two of them to show you why CM0102, is better than CM0304. But before you criticize me, let me make one thing clear the CM0102 engine was pretty much maxed out, on the other hand CM0304, has the potential to be great.


THE MATCH ENGINE

CM0304
+ The 2d engine is a fairly good representation of real life
- Restricted by the tactics
- Annoying flaws in the engine that weren’t a problem with just commentary.
- Should be more commentary out side of 2D View

CM0102
+ Games are quick and you see all you need to see
- Probably be more realistic
- Restricted by tactics but less than in 0304

CM0304 8/10 – More commentary is needed
CM0102 8/10 – Tweak the effect of tactics


TACTICS

CM0304
- In 0304, there are about one or two extra options from CM0102 and its not acceptable.
- You feel restricted, and as soon as I mess around, give players instructions, the tactics all of a sudden don’t work!
- CM 0304 is 2 years after 0102 and should have many more options, and you should have a greater amount of freedom to create a style of play.

CM0102
+ Wibble Wobble
- But the only things missing are a couple of extra options, like goalkeeper distribution. The only things I actually notice are the option for unlimited lists for free kick takers, captain etc
- No option for Gung Ho and Ultra defensive.
+ But I can get round that by changing my tactics.
- The only thing actually wrong with the tactics is that you are restricted by 532 being more successful than 442.
- The player running from midfield gets loads of goals. And another thing I found was in 442 if I had my full back pushing up I would concede a lot of goals, a bit irritating, but I get round it by telling them to push forward but don’t use the arrows on the tactics screen.

CM0304 6/10 – Disappointing, doesn’t warrant or display 2 years of development.
CM0102 710 – Annoying bugs, but overall I’d say with the match engine I feel like I can change things more in CM0102 than in CM0304.


TRANSFER MARKET

CM0304
+ Lots more options in making transfers
- Unrealistic Transfers
- Too many top players have really low release fees, Lucio, Mexes…
- Predictable Transfers – Anelka, Lucio, Mexes etc all leave clubs with in first month of game.
- Too Many transfers at start of game – don’t know after that, haven’t got past Christmas yet.
+ More realistic transfer fees
- Computer Undervalues too many good players and overvalues too many poor players
+ More realistic Transfer Budgets.

CM0102
+ Realistic Transfers
+ Contract release fees are more realistic
+ Less predictable transfers – a dozen or so apposed to 30 or 40.
- Over priced transfers, but that is compensated by good financial situation.
- Too many good players interested in your club
- Not enough loans.

CM0304 – 4/10. Shocking, Annoying. Too Many unrealistic transfers, all the other good points count for nothing when the most important part of the game in fundamentally flawed.

CM0102 8/10. Good, realistic. Financial situation a little overrated and the whole-buying players, is a little too easy.


REALISM

CM0304
- Inaccurate data – SI seem to be slow on picking up on players who improve and undervalue many players, and miss out on positional changes, eg. Campo, Okocha, P. Neville, Q.Fortune, Ljungburg etc.
- The game doesn’t follow real life. Charlton and Fulham are always undervalued as are Man Utd. With CM Default data Utd hardly ever win the league, in real life Utd win more often than not and this isn’t going to change whilst Sir Alex Ferguson is at the club.
- To get this accurate you have to either change it all your self, whilst getting annoyed by bugs in the editor or have to spend hours downloading a data update, not that there are any out at the moment.

CM0102
- Original Data is 2 years out of date
+ You can download my update which is half the size of the SMALLEST 0304 data update, and have an accurate update
+ Once you have that it is much more realistic and follows real life much more realisticly, I have carried out around 15 tests to make sure it does this in the English League at least.
- League formats have changed
- CPU are not very bright

CM0304 5/10 – Not very realistic. Full Stop – Could be improved with an update but I’d have to pull all of my hair out before I got that far.
CM0102 4/10 - Without an update. 8/10 With a good update.



THE MEDIA

CM0304
+ Media has improved from CM4
- To improve the media from CM4 wasn’t hard. There wasn’t any in CM4
+ More transfer Speculations
- The Transfers are unrealistic
- “The Fans did not expect van Nistelrooy to be a major part of the club this season” – Says it all.
- Very similar articles, should be a config file so we can write our own and add variation.

CM0102
- More media Interaction Needed
+ Stories generally said what was needed.
- Transfer Speculation tended to be unrealistic, in values at least.


CM0304 7.5/10 – Good an Improvement, more variation required and tweak of unrealistic stories.
CM0102 6/10 – More is needed and variation.


THE BOARD, THE FANS AND THE PLAYERS

CM0304
+ More feedback from Fans and the Board
+ More Interaction from Players
- Not Enough Interaction. It doesn’t feel as though you interact with the players enough.
- Players can be big headed and expect too much, in wages etc. And also expect to be treated really well, even when its not possible. Fortunately NOT ALL players are money-grabbing idiots. [aka. Anelka].

CM0102
- Lacking a bit of feedback compared to 0304.
- Lacking Player Interaction
- No Criticising / Praising of players


CM0304 9/10, Good, just a pity it’s not a very big part of the game. Like to see praise or rant at whole team.
CM0102 5/10, lacking from 0304.


TRAINING

CM0304
+ Big Improvement, more options, good.
- Coaches aren’t much help – comments need to elaborate more
- Don’t trust the assistant does a decent job at it.
- No tutorial, should be a guide to making a balanced schedule, because irl 3 activities is unheard of.

CM0102
- Too simple
+ Can’t Really go wrong
- Coaches aren’t much help

CM0304 8/10 – Basically good, some parts need developing
CM0102 6/10 – Showing its age. Training didn’t change in the 4 years of CM3.


USER INTERFACE

CM0304
- Too Small – looking at the screen gives me a headache!
+ Skinning is good
- Not enough good skins
- Messing with xml is not easy enough
- Fonts are rubbish – should be able to pick any font on your computer, with out having to mess around.
- Too Dark, I want the thing to be bright, I don’t want to have a blistering light on to see the thing. [This has improved a bit since CM4]
- Fiddly, it feels fake. I don’t know how to explain it. In CM0102 it feels real, 0304 feels false. I don’t know maybe it’s just me.
- It’s a 6 year old look. With rounded buttons. And rubbish fonts.

CM0102
+ Big. No stupid 1024x768 resolution
+ Brighter than 0304
+ Supplied fonts are better than in 0304. Especially that childish looking one used in Ter’s skin.
- General Design isn’t very attractive.

CM0304 – 2/10. I hate it. Does my head in. The only reason I’m interested in skinning is that I don’t like the available ones – except the ones I try to make are rubbish.
CM0102 – 6/10. Not very good. Just a lot better than in CM0304.



DATA EDITOR

CM0304
+ Looks Better than 0102.
- Isn’t User friendly. In a data editor there should be no need to use a mouse, except for click on a list, when it is quicker than typing a word in.
- Full of Bugs
- No delete record confirmation
- I could make a better data editor if I understood the save / load process [in vb]
- Resolution is to big. I now have to print everything of when updating data. Should be windowed at max of 800 x 600. – very maximum.
- Filter is frustrating and only on Players and Clubs
- Too easy to make mistakes on.
- The above make it very frustrating.

CM0102
- Doesn’t Look very nice – not that it matters.
+ I don’t need to use the mouse every other second
+ No bugs
+ Useful validation, data set wizard and distribution options.
- Couple of problems with the filter
+ Very Few Limits.

CM0304 5/10 – Very disappointed, needs a lot of work.
CM0102 9/10 – Very Good. Filter needs tweaking, but that’s it.


OTHERS


CM0304

Speed 5/10 – Too Slow, I get bored and want to do something else.

Database Size 6/10 – OK it has many more players but it doesn’t really make a difference. The database size selected are poor as well Normal doesn’t have enough and Large is too slow.

Leagues 10/10 – A massive range of leagues, but what’s the point. I don’t care about Indonesian or Singaporean football is rubbish. I bet the people from those countries watch more English Football than their own.

Value for Money 1/10 – I got it on Christmas Day. I’ve spent about 6 hours on it. 4 hours downloading patches. And about 9 hours and 59 minutes of that I was getting annoyed. However because I’m nice, I’m aware that other people probably like it so it I’ll give it 1/10 instead of 0.

Addictiveness 0/10. For it to be addictive, it can’t be slow, it has to be realistic, but at the same time you need to be able to be good at the game. Also you need to feel involved and get excited at playing the next game. Except I don’t know when I’m going to want to play my next game.


CM0102

Speed 10/10 – I can have the full game and its still quicker than running the major European leagues on 0304.

Database Size 8/10 – Not as many players as 0304, Not as upto date at default, but with a data update that will be pretty much sorted.

Leagues 10/10 – Like I said I don’t care about Singaporean football. Or Welsh for that matter. There should be a rule. The country must have played at the World Cup to get on to the game.

Value for Money 10/10 – It will cost you between £3 and £10 if you buy it now. And i've been playing it for longer than i've played anyother game

Addictiveness. 10/10. It’s the only game I’ve ever had which I’ve played consistently for 2 years through 2 sequels.



OVERALL

CM0304 76.5/140 or 5.5/10
CM0102 107/140 or 7.5/10

I see the CM4 Series as a step backwards. I acknowledge that CM0102 isn’t perfect. But I’d say as an overall package it is definitely better than CM4.

Now in the above I know that a few of the points I was being picky, but the thing is when you get angry you get picky you find small thing annoying and it only insinuates how you feel.

I want the game to be quick, to be able to run all the major European leagues plus Argentina and Brazil, too make sure the balance of the game stays correct [I didn’t even mention long term games above. Partly because I’ve never had one in CM0304], I want it to be VERY realistic and addictive. In CM0304, I would have to spend a lot of time in an editor which I don’t like and get very annoyed at having to run a very small database.

I’m a perfectionist. If it’s not perfect I’m not happy. So could SI please take this onboard, because for the foreseeable future who’s going to make a good football management game apart from you?<TABLE class=ev_msg_rowcolor1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=ev_msg_userinfo vAlign=top width="18%">Super Caley (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))

Moderator


From: Inverness, Scotland
Registered: 29 March 2003


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[PilotMan]

And another:

You have obviously come into this with preconceved notions and decided that cm03/04 wasn't as good as 01/02 before you had even seen it


1) Match engine, the 2D is a vast improvement over the text only and provide a much better visualisation of what is going on (still much room for improvement)+ you can better see the effects of your tactics on the pitch

2) Tactics, not much development been done, but still a greater range of options.

3) Transfer Market is much improved the number of options for contracts, offers etc is much more realistic, as for too many xfers at start of game remember the transfer windows, all the dealing that would normaly take place over the first few months of the season are compressed into a few weeks

4) Seems to be an add for your patch, but with a greater range of options CM03/04 is far closer to rl

5) 03/04 still needs more but is far better than all previous versions in ammount and variety

6) The Board etc, As you say much better in 03/04 (now if only i didn't get the boot every time I hit the ultimatum button

7) Training is vastly improved over all previous versions

8) User interface, if you dont like it goto cmskins and find a better one

Editor is much better than all old ones

speed still needs alot of work

db size need another option between normal and large

vfm is good (and you got it for free as a present so how can you only give it 1)

Addictivness

I havent put it down yet


Overall 03/04 much room for improvement but still better than what has gone b4

01/02 great for its time but showing its age and prety much at the end of its development arc

[PilotMan]

more:

Here is what I think:

Realism: No question 03/04 is the more realistic of the two games. Like others have said ,seeing the mistakes is better than guessing the mistakes. Normal formations now work, and I couldn't be happier about it. To be honest, many times in 01/02 if you wanted to win anything you had to make up some stupendous formations, that no manager in the right mind would use. So in realism 03/04 all the way.

Transfer market: Depends what you like. If you like to be able to buy any youngster for peanuts, and in general you want simplistic transfer and contract negotiations, then 01/02 is your game. If you however want tough negotiating and teams refusing to let you have their best players for nothing, plus not being able to dump you bad contracts on someone then 03/04 is the game for you.

Game engine: 03/04 wins. While the 2d engine can use some more tweaks and improvements it is still alot better than nothing.

Leagues: lets not get into this again. If you don't like a particular league, that doesn't mean there are others who don't play it. Since you used Singapore as an example I am sure that over in that country alot of people pley their league. If it was up to me we'd have every league in the world. And the argument that more leagues = unenjoyable game is totally rubbish as SI people have already declared.

In my opinion Cm 03/04 is the best SI game to date because I like realism and variety in terms of leagues to play. Game speed doesn't affect me as I never was the one to select 25 leagues at once.

So it basically comes down to this:

If you wants a realistic game you go for CM 03/04.

If you want a more arcadeish experience you go for Cm 01/02.

In all honesty nobody can say that 01/02 is the more relistic game because it simply isn't. More fun for some people it may just be but not more realistic. Also being the 2nd best game out there isn't a bad thing.

Just my 2 cents.

If you want

------------------------------------------------------------------

I did...

If I had to give overal ratings
CM01/02 9.5/10
CM03/04 7/10

CM03/04 is a nice game, but i'm missing so many (smal) things that were there in Cm01/02. Off cource there are improvements, but they are all not too good worked out... I've the feeling that they were not done yet when the game was released, it was a half-finished game...
CM4 was only a 25%-finished game, coz they needed 5 EP's and still there were bugs... If I was a tester at SI, i would have found lots of bugs in the CM4
, that they believed was ready to be sold.
And then CM01/02 only needed 1EP, i believe, which was not really needed..

also the 2D match engine...
everybody sayin' "great improvement blabla" well it's an improvement, but still lots of things to be fixed like OFFSIDES, ONE ON ONES (ronaldo (finishing 20) missing 10 one on one's a match)... There is the shots going over thing, still in 4.1.3 (but i didn't start a new game). There is the thing that dribbling is far overrated. This became better since 03/04 but still it's there...

Don't get me wrong, it think CM03/04 is a nice game, but there are lots of things to be fixed, and in CM01/02

------------------------------------------------------------

Once again this tripe... 01/02 is inferior for one reason, guys - you can't see the game. Period. Discussion over.

There is no comparison between match engines because in CM 01/02 you can't see anything. You "read" stuff. This is just silly. Horses were a great thing - they still have their charms. But motorized coaches were an improvement.

01/02 - match engine is - at best - 3 of 10. How can you say anything about it is possibly equal or better to 03/04 when you can't see it?

Get over it guys! Managers do not manage by getting quick text messages whispered in their ears. They watch the game.

Tactically - again, same point. You have no basis to say anything positive about 01/02 because you have no hard evidence that anything works the way you imagine it to be. The Wibble-Wobble screens were a ridiculous tool needed for an arcane (albiet quite fun) method of info delivery.

I agree wbout your desire for more tactical options... I imagine future versions of the game will have this. It is a tad early to complain about this when we can finally SEE the game, because before - you couldn't. So who knew what anything REALLY did?

The transfer system is, in my opinion, different and more complex than the old system. Now I am concerned with myriad other things (wage bill, for example) and I imagine other clubs are worrying about it too. I agree that this is an area 03/04 needs work, but it is better - if not quite as complete - as the 01/02 system...

8/10 for cm 01/02's transfers? Please. I bought talented youngsters for nothing in that game all the time...

<<The game doesn’t follow real life. Charlton and Fulham are always undervalued as are Man Utd. With CM Default data Utd hardly ever win the league, in real life Utd win more often than not and this isn’t going to change whilst Sir Alex Ferguson is at the club.>>

Undervalued Man u has won the league or finished second in every game I've played - in every year. Charlton finished 7th in my last game - that ain't bad. In 01/02 things were equally consistent (with occasional variety).

I agree about training... Your points there are excellent. This is an area where there needs to be major design improvements - at least in the way that a manager can affect his players and organize his schedule...

Visuals... You call 03/04 a 6 yr old look, yet 01/02 looks like a DOS orgasm. Those are taste issues and your opinions are absolutely valid there, however. I disagree but... No one is "right" in these cases.

Realism? Please. In 01/02 there were SuperTactics like "knife" with no wide players that could win the prem with Doncaster and no transfers in three seasons. Try winning with a straight 4-4-2. That right there scuttles 01/02 totally. In 01/02 everything - everything - was in your head (your being the user). While I imagine that it might seem more realistic there, I cannot come close to agreeing with you on this case.

Overall I am just reacting to this same old "01/02 was great this new game isn't" commentary that is soooo tired. There is no comparison. Cars are better than horses when it comes to travel.

-----------------------------------------------------

[ice4277]

Both 03/04 and 01/02 are very good games. 03/04 is a definite improvement over CM4, much more interaction and feels much more realistic. I can see why some people probably would not like the newer versions over the CM3 engine versions, just as I think there will probably be some people who will not like the new Football Manager game, just because it is not exactly like 03/04. But I would definitely recommend giving 03/04 a shot.

[Blackadar]

Good points, lots of info. Please remember that I have both 01/02 and CM4.

It's 03/04 vs CM4 that I'm most interested in. I just don't understand the differences between those 2 games.

[PilotMan]

Well, I have CM4, kinda torn between 03/04 and the new FM. After the problems with the new CM4, I am hesitant about trying a new series again. Kinda like the first production model with cars, wait to get the kinks worked out thing. But if I do that it could be 2 more years before another "it all works the way we want" game comes out.

Torn.

[RPI-Fan]

I only have CM4, and since I'm not a really frequent player, the little nuances don't get to me so much. But from what I can tell, if you were going to be playing a really long career, CM 03/04 would be worth the $40 or whatever it would be to upgrade.

However, now, I'd say wait for '04/05

[klayman]

03/04 is the game CM4 should have been.

[Easy Mac]

sans the mls.

[Blackadar]

Is the CM 04/05 the same thing that MLS Manager 2005 is (or will be)?

[cartman]

Is the CM 04/05 the same thing that MLS Manager 2005 is (or will be)?

Nope. CM 04/05 is an entirely new offering from Eidos, and MLS Manager is the actual continuation of the codebase from SI.

[3ric]

03/04 is the game CM4 should have been.

True, CM4 (probably) wasn't a finished product. Based on popular belief, it took so long to develop that Eidos (allegedly) basically forced SI to release it as CM4 before it was ready. You won't get Marc or anybody at SI to confirm this, but it (this theory, unconfirmed as it is) provides a good reason why SI and Eidos split.

[Blackadar]

Nope. CM 04/05 is an entirely new offering from Eidos, and MLS Manager is the actual continuation of the codebase from SI.

This being the case, MLS manager is probably what I want then and NOT CM 04/05?

Which one is Marc doing?

[cartman]

This being the case, MLS manager is probably what I want then and NOT CM 04/05?

Which one is Marc doing?

Marc is with Sports Interactive, so he's working on MLS Manager/Football Manager. CM 04/05 only gets to keep the name, the game for all intents and purposes will be a first generation product.

[Marc Vaughan]

Just to confirm I'm working on FM2005 (or MLS Manager as it'll be called for the American release) .... this game will be based upon our existing codebase/research.

CM5 is being created by a team Eidos have recruited and they are building it from scratch.

[Blackadar]

So what you're saying is that CM5 will suck and that I want MLS Mgr 2005/FM 2005 instead. :)

When's it (FM 2005) coming out?

[BreizhManu]

So what you're saying is that CM5 will suck and that I want MLS Mgr 2005/FM 2005 instead. :)

CM5 might be good, who knows ? (I doubt it but again who knows ?)

When's it (FM 2005) coming out?

End of the year (october-november)

[Desnudo]

So what you're saying is that CM5 will suck and that I want MLS Mgr 2005/FM 2005 instead. :)

When's it (FM 2005) coming out?

Back on the the original question, it's hard to pin down what all the differences are between CM 03/04 and CM4, but CM 03/04 is immensely more enjoyable. It's a lot of little things. Having played both, I can say with confidence you won't be sorry buying it (now make me a playtester for the US Marc, this is around the 4th or 5th endorsement ;) ). If you do a search on CM 03/04 you'll find a lot of threads on this topic as the question has come up fairly regularly.

[Mac Howard]

I've noticed throughout the years that if a game takes on more detail and becomes more complicated some fans don't go with that and declare the earlier game "better". CM01/02 is simpler and probably easier for a newcomer to come to terms with but CM03/04 will better satisfy the hard core fan.

[MIJB#19]

I read most of the first CM01/02 vs CM03/04 quote and all I can think is: How on earth does someone dare to make an oppinion out of a game that is designed to last for 100s of hours after less then 10 hours of playing time?

Personally, I bought CM01/02 and CM4. I never got the hang of CM4, but yet wouldn't dare to compare the two as I just never really got through a full season in CM4 (as far as I can remember), unlike with CM01/02.

[Marc Vaughan]

When's it (FM 2005) coming out?
It'll be out Q4 2004 .... no precise release date until much closer to the end of development I'm afraid.

[cartman]

It'll be out Q4 2004 .... no precise release date until much closer to the end of development I'm afraid.

Marc, I think I speak for all those anticipating the release...

"Stop posting so much and code more!!!!" :D :p

[ice4277]

It'll be out this Tuesday.
;)

[Francis_Cole]

It'll be out this Tuesday
Does that mean we have to some work today? ;)

[3ric]

I've noticed throughout the years that if a game takes on more detail and becomes more complicated some fans don't go with that and declare the earlier game "better". CM01/02 is simpler and probably easier for a newcomer to come to terms with but CM03/04 will better satisfy the hard core fan.

We see this with FOF as well, no matter how good FOF2k4 is right now, a lot of people still swear that FOF2 is the better game (i.e. was more enjoyable).

[Desnudo]

We see this with FOF as well, no matter how good FOF2k4 is right now, a lot of people still swear that FOF2 is the better game (i.e. was more enjoyable).

With games, I think it's often whichever version produced that "light bulb" moment for someone. For me it was Doom, which just blew my socks off. It was so much better than anything I played before it that I was amazed by it. It only stood to reason that anything subsequently would not measure up to that original feeling.