Is it possible to play good poker without great math skills?

[Sporkimata]

I have been reading many books on poker and the one consensus seems to be playing pot odds. I understand the concept but am a little slow on the math uptake. Do you guys think its possible to play effective poker without super strong math skills?

[Franklinnoble]

Well, for your sake, I hope great grammar skills aren't required. ;)

[Sporkimata]

Yeah, thats a little embarassing. Hi, my name is Ted and I have a Grammar and spelling problem.

[Franklinnoble]

Just f'in with you, Ted...

Oh, and I don't know squat about poker. Or math, for that matter...

[judicial clerk]

Hi Ted.

[Samdari]

Well, for your sake, I hope great grammar skills aren't required. ;)

Man, I was jumping into this thread just to say that. You suck.

[Sporkimata]

Wow. I really screwed up that Headline. Can I change that? Or do I accept it like a mark of shame. I guess I will take the shame.

[corbes]

Let it be written: Sporkimata = shame.

[Sporkimata]

I was taught english by Dean Houston.

[primelord]

I guess it depends what you consider super strong math skills. Pot odds are a very big part of the game. If you are making calls when you don't have the odds or are folding your hand when you do then you are going to be costing yourself some money.

If it is just the total dollar amount that is messing you up just think in terms of big bets and small bets. Lets say 4 people and yourself all call before the flop. That makes 5 small bets in the pot. Now the flop comes and you have a flush draw which you want better than 4.1:1 pot odds to draw to for your next card. And lets say 2 people bet and the action is on you. Well with the 5 small bets that were in the pot before the flop and now the 2 small bets that have been made before you. That is 7 small bets to you 1 to call. So you are getting 7:1 on your money when you onyl need 4.1:1 to justify a call. (You should actually raise this, but that is for another discussion :)).

So you can simplfy it a bit and still be doing the math. Obviously when you get to the turn just divde the the total number of small bets in half that are currently in the pot and that will tell you how many big bets are in the pot.

[Sporkimata]

Well, yeah that makes more sense. I have read three or four books on poker so far and of course pot odds are huge, and what you said makes more sense to me. Thanks

[sabotai]

Basically what primelord said. It's really more memorization (what are the odds for a flush draw, the odds for a straight draw, etc.) and counting the bets. There really isn't that much math involved. If anything, being able to think quickly is more important than math skills.

[Sporkimata]

Is there a good place that has all the odds in a list? I know it must be huge or too many variables. Its actually one of the problems I have sometimes. I feel like im hanging on to a straight draw/flush draw for way too long sometimes.

[GoldenEagle]

f'in elitest

[TredWel]

This article is a good start:

hxxp://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/outs-abdul.html

[BishopMVP]

I'm actually curious about this because I come from the opposite perspective. I can do the math and figure out odds, but I suck at reading people. No clue whatsoever. Whenever I'm playing with my friends basing my actions off how they play the board works fine and I win often. But if I ever want to step up to casino level or so, I suspect I'm going to have to learn how to pick up tells. So two questions - am I correct in assuming I'll need to do this to ever be a decent player, and is there any way to practice picking up tells/bluffs? (I'm also bad in real life at trying to determine if someone is lying, so I suspect this is something that you either have or don't, but hopefully I can get decent at it.)

[AnalBumCover]

I think, just as important as picking up tells - and possibly a bit easier - is to pick up betting patterns.

[Bee]

There's quite a few pros that play more by instinct than hard and fast calculations. Experience is probably more important than being able to calculate in your head what the odds are. At least that's been my experience.

As far as pot odds go...if you understand the basic concept, that's probably enough. Many times it will be obvious without actually doing the calculation in your head whether or not you have pot odds. If it's so close that you'd need to have an exact calculation, I think you'd be better off making the decision based on betting patterns, tells, etc.

[primelord]

There's quite a few pros that play more by instinct than hard and fast calculations. Experience is probably more important than being able to calculate in your head what the odds are. At least that's been my experience.

As far as pot odds go...if you understand the basic concept, that's probably enough. Many times it will be obvious without actually doing the calculation in your head whether or not you have pot odds. If it's so close that you'd need to have an exact calculation, I think you'd be better off making the decision based on betting patterns, tells, etc.
You generally don't see pros playing very well on instinct in limit games. In no-limit it's a different ball game since in general you can bet as much as you need to insure no one has the odds to draw. In limit pot odds are a huge part of the game.

The pot size should be a major consideration of pretty much everything you do in hand. So if you want to boil it down to something more simple than pot odds. When you have a good draw and the pot is big don't fold. When the pot is small fold. That will actually cover more situations than not, but since it's nott hat difficult to count the bets as they go in that is probably what you want to do.

To be a very good player you should be thinking about things like implied odds as well. Lets there are 5 people in the hand and you are getting 19:1 on bet with nothing but a pocket pair in your hand that you don't think will win unimproved. Well you are 22:1 dog to spike your set on the turn so by just basic pot odds you should fold. However if you are certain that several people will call your raise if you spike that set on the turn then your implied odds make up for the amount you are short on your pot odds and a call would be correct.

It's situations like that where it becomes more difficult than just counting bets, but for most situations just straight pot odds will be atleast close to right.

[EagleFan]

Tells can be tuogh, dependnig on the people. My live experience is with a group of friends every month and we're there for fun as much as poker so there's a lot going on to dstract you.

The best bet might be watching trends, which is big for online play. My toughest problem with online play is I get either too impatient or too cautious when I think about the stakes of winning a tournament (for the big ones).

One tell-tale sign is someone who never sees the flop and then comes out betting big one hand. FOLD FOLD FOLD!!! For people that see most flops, watch to see what hands they bet and what hands they raise. I also try to keep an idea of how each player responds when it's their turn (do they check off the preselected betting options before it's their turn when they don;t have a hand and wait until it's thrie turn to make a decision when they do). There's a lot of little things to look for, depending on where you're playing.

When I'm in a serious tournament, I try to make my decisions at the exact same time each turn and I throw in a few bluffs now and then to help with a potential larger pot when I have something.


Oh, and don't go immediately all-in after a flop if you have a good hand. I like to let the other players control teh betting for a while and then up then later when I know I've got a top hand.


With all that said, I know I'm not that good yet because I lose my patience a little too early.

[Anthony]

I was taught english by Dean Houston.

who are you? you haven't been around here long enough to be worthy of writing Dean Houston's name. go back to getting people their fuzzy slippers and washing our undies, rookie. :mad: