Bill Cosby ruffles some feathers.

[Ben E Lou]

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0504/21cosby.html

Cosby stuns crowd with politically incorrect speech

Washington Post
Published on: 05/21/04


WASHINGTON — Bill Cosby was anything but politically correct in his remarks at a Constitution Hall bash commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown vs. Board of Education decision. To astonishment, laughter and applause, Cosby mocked everything from urban fashion to black spending and speaking habits.

"Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal," he declared Monday night. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids — $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' ...

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"They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English," he exclaimed. "I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. ... You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"

Cosby also turned his wrath to "the incarcerated," saying: "These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, (saying) 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

When Cosby finally concluded, Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert, NAACP President Kweisi Mfume and NAACP legal defense fund head Theodore Shaw came to the podium looking stone-faced. Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African-American, and many of the problems his organization has addressed in the black community were not self-inflicted.

[cthomer5000]

I can understand his point of view.

[Warhammer]

I find it funny, I work at a plant where we have several blacks that work out in the warehouse. Occasionally we get phone calls for some of these workers. Most of the time it is a bunch of mumbling until you can pick out a name that you can pass the phone too.

One time this guy calls, and I can not make out a word of what he was saying. I ask him three times who he is calling for and can not understand him. Finally, he starts cursing and says, "You're going to make me talk English? IS TONY THERE?" Plain as day, opened my eyes a bit too.

[sachmo71]

Good for him.

[Huckleberry]

Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African-American...

I should certainly hope not. African-Americans are only 13% of the US population (12.9 including mixed race people in the 2000 census).

[Ben E Lou]

African-Americans are only 13% of the US population (12.9 including mixed race people in the 2000 census).I've seen that statistic many times before, yet it is still difficult for me to fathom, having lived in Georgia all my life, which is almost 30% black. There's actually a good sidebar discussion about integration that we could have based on those stats. I'll bring that one up when I get back in town and have time to participate.

[cartman]

I've seen that statistic many times before, yet it is still difficult for me to fathom, having lived in Georgia all my life, which is almost 30% black.

Idaho and Montana even the numbers out.

[Ben E Lou]

Idaho and Montana even the numbers out.Not really. Without looking, I'd venture to guess that there are as many black people in Metro Atlanta alone as there are white people in either of those states. :p

[Tekneek]

Wow. Bill Cosby has always seemed like an individual, though, who does not consider himself a part of any group or classification. Those things cut both ways, though. It is less about race, IMHO, and more about how a lot of people in this country don't have their priorities in order and would prefer to blame others for their troubles.

[cartman]

Not really. Without looking, I'd venture to guess that there are as many black people in Metro Atlanta alone as there are white people in either of those states. :p

And there's about as many left-handed lesbian Eskimos in Atlanta as there are..... oh never mind! :D

[Noop]

I don't understand that? Why should black people conform to speak english? Is it because is it the so called civilized? Tis the human condition of the member of the have-nots...

[Easy Mac]

there's a difference between conformity and speaking the official language of the country. Why should I have to learn how to play football just so I can join the Carolina Panthers team?

[cthomer5000]

there's a difference between conformity and speaking the official language of the country. Why should I have to learn how to play football just so I can join the Carolina Panthers team?
Technically, we have no offiical language.

[Noop]

Easy that seems like to different things to me. One is sports the other is your life... what I am say is because I say Wuz Up instead of How do you do... I am not educated? I just find it odd and interesting that speaking proper english is considered civilized.

[primelord]

I don't understand that? Why should black people conform to speak english? Is it because is it the so called civilized? Tis the human condition of the member of the have-nots...
All people are free to speak any way they please. However refusing to speak proper english will certainly limit your choices and opportunities in life. When you walk into a job interview you will be judged on everything about you. They will take into account how you look, how you speak, how you write etc. In corporate america the guy in the suit who is speaking proper english is goign to get the job far more often than the guy in a t-shirt and jeans who isn't speaking proper english. Regardless of race.

So I believe black people and all people should feel free to talk however they like. However the reality of the world is by choosing not to speak "properly" you might be closing doors on opportunities and you never want to limit your choices in life.

[cthomer5000]

Easy that seems like to different things to me. One is sports the other is your life... what I am say is because I say Wuz Up instead of How do you do... I am not educated? I just find it odd and interesting that speaking proper english is considered civilized.
I think it's a matter of working within the system you are a part of. If people want to speak slang/street, they shouldn't be surprised when they are judged for doing so.

[Easy Mac]

actually, one is sports, the other is words. If I wanted to play football all my life, then I guess it would be my life. But I still don't want to learn the rules and how to play... I just want to play.

And seeing as how you spend at least 12 years being educated in proper english, I am that you would consider it an affront when people expect you to use the language.

[cthomer5000]

we posted at the same time, but I think primelord made my point a little more eloquently.

[Noop]

All people are free to speak any way they please. However refusing to speak proper english will certainly limit your choices and opportunities in life. When you walk into a job interview you will be judged on everything about you. They will take into account how you look, how you speak, how you write etc. In corporate america the guy in the suit who is speaking proper english is goign to get the job far more often than the guy in a t-shirt and jeans who isn't speaking proper english. Regardless of race.

So I believe black people and all people should feel free to talk however they like. However the reality of the world is by choosing not to speak "properly" you might be closing doors on opportunities and you never want to limit your choices in life.
Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired? I would dress the part because it is required as a dresscode but to change how i speak around my boss or coworkers just seems odd. And you speak about the reality of the world, if one does not chose to speak so called properly they won't get far. Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.

[henry296]

I've seen that statistic many times before, yet it is still difficult for me to fathom, having lived in Georgia all my life, which is almost 30% black. There's actually a good sidebar discussion about integration that we could have based on those stats. I'll bring that one up when I get back in town and have time to participate.

The East Coast is quite unique when it comes to African American population. I did a project for work a couple of years ago and the distributino was surprising to us. The Highest concentrations are in Baltimore and Washington, DC and Atlanta. California is below the national average with only 8% of LA and 9% of the Bay Area. Other large cities that drive the average down are Boston, Phoenix, Seattle, Minneapolis, San Diego and Denver.

Todd

[Easy Mac]

well, there's not much you can say when a person has a chip on their shoulder... carry on with your plight big man. Meanwhile, me and my boyz a be workin.

[cthomer5000]

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired? I would dress the part because it is required as a dresscode but to change how i speak around my boss or coworkers just seems odd. And you speak about the reality of the world, if one does not chose to speak so called properly they won't get far. Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.
Or, they just think someone speaking like that will lose them a lot of potential clients.

[VPI97]

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired?You're not going to be well qualified for many jobs if you cannot effectively communicate with clients, coworkers, etc. I worked for a company based out of Montreal for a few years and accepted the fact that certain promotions were going to be out of my reach because I couldn't speak French fluently. It's a part of life...

[John Galt]

All of this is "part of life" and necessary for client interaction, but it also attests to the fact that language is not "neutral." It is only because "proper" English is practiced by the largely white majority that other forms of English are held in lower regard. And it is also a regional effect (ie a Southern accent can cut both ways depending where you are living). While it is easy to say that you should learn "proper" English if you want to succeed, I think it is also important that those of us who use "proper" English recognize that those who use other forms of the language are no less qualified or intelligent.

[Noop]

Or, they just think someone speaking like that will lose them a lot of potential clients.
How so? If I am a lawyer I would defend my client the very same way some who is equal to me but instead choses to speak proper english. Another point you will lose potential clients by not hiring the best people no matter what... Business is all about profit because if you not in it for profit you need a new career.

[primelord]

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired? I would dress the part because it is required as a dresscode but to change how i speak around my boss or coworkers just seems odd. And you speak about the reality of the world, if one does not chose to speak so called properly they won't get far. Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language. I don't disagree with you that if you are qualified for the job that you should be hired. Along the same lines I think that if someone is qualified for a job that doesn't really rely on their writing skills and they have a few grammar mistakes on their resume that shouldn't always be held against them either. Again the reality of the situation is that it's going to be held against them.

You said that you will dress the part because it is required, but how is that any different. I would assume that if you were working in an environment that required a suit and tie that you wouldn't also be wearing that in your free time. I know I don't. Does the way I dress affect how well I perform in my job? Absolutely not. I have no interactions with customers so it really has no bearing at all on my job performance. However there is an exepected level of dress in my office and that is just the way it is.

Again if you feel that strongly about speaking a certain way then it is certainly your right to continue doing so. However it will absolutely close doors for you in the future. They may not be opportunities you were interested in anyway, and that doesn't mean at all that you can't or won't be successful in life. But I will say again you always want to give yourself as many choices as possible in life. And whether or not it is fair or right, by not speaking proper english it will limit your opportunities.

Edit: I missed an ' in it's and I didn't want Quik's head to explode.

[Cuckoo]

I disagree John. While it certainly does not indicate substandard intelligence, improper use of the "proper" English language will often times signify a less qualified person if the job, as a great many do, require effective communication with coworkers, clients, etc. as VPI pointed out. Seems to me that the fact that the majority utilizes "proper" English is precisely the reason that qualification can be determined by its use.

[Warhammer]

Funny you mention that statistic SkyDog, I have lived in Memphis, TN for the last 20 yrs. and Memphis is roughly 60% black. I used to travel a lot for work a few years back, and found myself in Tulsa. Something just seemed odd about the town and I could not put my finger on it. Then it dawned on me, everyone there was white...

It seemed odd...

[kserra]

Ever heard a teenager girl talk? Like, um, well, yeah, like, well, um...

The point is, once we grow up, go into the "real" world of no more summer vacations, bills to pay, and work to be done, we have to cast aside the slang of our youth for the language of our profession.

I no longer can drop a "dude" or "rad" or "wicked" into my conversation at work...

Fair or not, you are being judged all the time...people that dress well and speak well are going to make a more positive impression than those who do not...it does not mean they are necessarily better people, but we often only have a few moments to make that impression...we don't have the time to sit down and get to know the "real person" behind the facade...

besides, white teens now speak slang that has much in common with black teens slang, and they too will be judged based on their language skills as they mature and grow up...

tru dat...

Kevin

[The Afoci]

Noop, the problem is that you are limiting yourself to those who communicate in the same way and there is just far more that speak 'normal' english. It would be like hiring someone who only speaks spanish to work the drive thru at a McDonalds because they are good at it.

That isn't to say that a business that was focused towards that type of language wouldn't work, because it probably would. The music stores in Fargo are a completely different set of people, pierced, tattooed druggies, but they are highly successful.

[wig]

I love Bill Cosby now. :)

[RendeR]

awe shit, now I agree with WIG? wtf is the world coming to?

[Warhammer]

Effective communication skills is essential in today's workforce. Someone could develop Hyperspace Travel today, but unless he can effectively communicate his discovery to others, his breakthrough will not see the light of day.

Effective communication can be done in a variety of ways. Speaking and writing are the two most frequently used methods of communication in the workplace today. If you cannot use either form to communicate in a way that your co-workers, clients, or vendors can understand, then you will not be very succesful.

[John Galt]

I disagree John. While it certainly does not indicate substandard intelligence, improper use of the "proper" English language will often times signify a less qualified person if the job, as a great many do, require effective communication with coworkers, clients, etc. as VPI pointed out. Seems to me that the fact that the majority utilizes "proper" English is precisely the reason that qualification can be determined by its use.

I never denied that not using "proper" English has an effect in the "real world." My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy. I'm not saying that you should ignore the "real world" effects just that we should also fight the prejudice created by believing that "proper" English is the only way to speak.

[primelord]

Effective communication skills is essential in today's workforce.
They is essential? ;)

[Cuckoo]

I never denied that not using "proper" English has an effect in the "real world." My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy. I'm not saying that you should ignore the "real world" effects just that we should also fight the prejudice created by believing that "proper" English is the only way to speak.

Okay, I think you made your point more clearly that time. To me, it seemed like before, while you were admitting the "real world" effects, you said that it should not be used to determine qualification. My point was that it should be used to determine qualification. I do agree though, that the "qualification" is based on a type of discrimination, although I would classify it as one of the more innocuous of prejudicial forms.

[Warhammer]

Good catches primelord? :P

[cthomer5000]

I do agree though, that the "qualification" is based on a type of discrimination, although I would classify it as one of the more innocuous of prejudicial forms.
Agreed. As long as speaking "proper" English is in the best interests of companies trying to maximize profit, those who don't speak it will be "discriminated" against.

[Fidatelo]

I just have one thing to say to Mr. Cosby....

What the problem is?!?

[Ben E Lou]

From the time I was very young, my parents made it very clear that it was fine to talk "black" around the kids in the neighborhood, etc., but in order to be successful we needed "learn how to talk around white folks." (That was exactly how they put it.) That seems so simple to me.

A funny anecdote: a few months after I started on Young Life staff, my brother called me at the office one day. When I got off the phone, I noticed a co-worker looking at me with a puzzled look. I asked what was up, and I could tell he was a little uncomfortable, but finally he just said, "I had no idea you could talk black!" I busted out laughing when I realized that when on the phone with family, I just naturally moved from one "language" to the other without even knowing it.

Shortly after we started dating, my wife commented on the same thing about me. Even funnier to her is that when she is the only white person present, everyone in my family talks very "black", but when we're in majority white settings, we'll all use standard English. She commented that she figured it would be the case but it was still very "different" for her to hear my brothers and sister speaking erudite standard English after hearing, "Ben, why you ain't called me in like two months? You be too busy to talk to yo' own sistah?" for example. The final moment in her "education" in this area was a couple of months ago. She used to be a branch manager for a large bank. The V.P. who hired her was black, and often worked out of an office in the branch that she managed. (As is so happens, he grew up in the same home town as I did and was friends with my older siblings...) One Sunday recently, we visited the church that he attends, so we were in a virtually all-black environment. It was a quite a surprise for her to her to hear an MBA-Bank-VP-dot-every-I-cross-every-T guy like him speaking as "black" as her often-uneducated birth mothers that she works with now. ;)

[kserra]

I never denied that not using "proper" English has an effect in the "real world." My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy. I'm not saying that you should ignore the "real world" effects just that we should also fight the prejudice created by believing that "proper" English is the only way to speak.

man, this is a slippery slope...

so when my students tell me that the way I grade their papers is prejudice against teen slang (age discrimination) they are right?

The English language is spoken by whites, blacks, and every shade in between...to think that "proper" English is a "white" thing is insulting...so what about some African nations where English is either the primary or secondary language spoken (and often in old English form)???

People always speak differently in different company...with my buddies, I still sound like a college guy...with my grandparents, I sound like an old man...at my work, I try to sound like a professional...

Kevin

[VPI97]

My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy.I see what you're trying to say, but I don't agree with it.

Let's say a trial in Kingston features a Jamaican lawyer arguing his point against a Scottish lawyer...Assuming that they are equally skilled in their craft, it's not a reach to say that the Jamaican lawyer will have a easier time in communicating his point to the jury. Is that because Jamaicans are prejudiced against people with Scottish accents?

[John Galt]

Okay, I think you made your point more clearly that time. To me, it seemed like before, while you were admitting the "real world" effects, you said that it should not be used to determine qualification. My point was that it should be used to determine qualification. I do agree though, that the "qualification" is based on a type of discrimination, although I would classify it as one of the more innocuous of prejudicial forms.

I would disagree that it is innocuous. Especially for Americans who speak Spanish this has been a contentious and often litigated issue. Many companies started passing "English only" rules that made English the only allowable language to be spoken in the workplace. While this made sense in a few isolated cases (like in a hospital emergency room), it was being adopted in places where there was no legitimate argument. The result was often 100's of Hispanic Americans being fired from jobs (while their White counterparts who may use a "foreign" word were allowed to stay). Language norms because race norms and it created environments hostile to non-white Americans.

I think there are a lot of other cases as well where language is used as a proxy for race (see the Ebonics controversy). Ultimately, we can't deny the importance of clear communication, but I think Americans really need to realize that language/accent discrimination (rationalized as necessary for business) often cloaks race discrimination.

And notice the house of cards effect. Company A says it needs "proper English" speakers so it can interact with Companies B, C, and D. Companies B, C, and D say they need "proper English" speakers so they can interact with Companies A, E, F, and G. The cycle continues because "proper English" is the privileged form.

[John Galt]

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't agree with it.

Let's say a trial in Kingston features a Jamaican lawyer arguing his point against a Scottish lawyer...Assuming that they are equally skilled in their craft, it's not a reach to say that the Jamaican lawyer will have a easier time in communicating his point to the jury. Is that because Jamaicans are prejudiced against people with Scottish accents?

Yes, I would say it is a form of prejudice. That is a form we all naturally have. My only point is that we should try to fight that natural prejudice toward the familiar and learn to accept a wide varieties of English.

[wig]

People act like a little discrimination is a bad thing.

[Celeval]

Personally, my opinion of a potential hire falls dramatically with grammatical errors on his/her resume. To me, it shows a lack of attention (or a lack of caring about) detail, which is important in nearly EVERY career path.

[Warhammer]

John,

While I understand your position, I think it is flawed. When you speak to a customer or a vendor at work, do you use expletives? When you go to the store and ask to speak to a customer service representative, do you want someone who speaks the "King's" English, or someone that speaks colloquially?

In 10 years of work in sales, I have spoken to people around the world. Let me tell you, it is very difficult to speak to people from other parts of the world. There are different accents on the words, different tones of voice, and even different sentence structure. It is very difficult to talk these people (not a bad thing, it just takes a lot of work to listen to them). Which is funny because the other people from the office would say, "It's a foreigner, let's give it to John." They didn't want to deal with it.

When looking for a job, selling a product, talking to a friend, and giving a speech, you must tailor your message to the crowd you are talking to. This has nothing to do with prejudice or discrimination, it is about effectively communicating with your audience. If you make it easier for them to listen, it is easier to get your message across and leave them with something to think about.

[John Galt]

man, this is a slippery slope...

so when my students tell me that the way I grade their papers is prejudice against teen slang (age discrimination) they are right?

The English language is spoken by whites, blacks, and every shade in between...to think that "proper" English is a "white" thing is insulting...so what about some African nations where English is either the primary or secondary language spoken (and often in old English form)???

People always speak differently in different company...with my buddies, I still sound like a college guy...with my grandparents, I sound like an old man...at my work, I try to sound like a professional...

Kevin

Whoa there. No one said "proper English" shouldn't be taught. I think creating language uniformity is VERY important. My issue is that language unifromity doesn't exist and until it does we can't ignore the real world effects of language discrimination.

As for the "insulting" point by me. I NEVER said that only whites speak "proper English." My point was that as long as whites are the majority (especially in the business world) and they predominantly use "proper English," it will be the preferred and privileged form in our society. Note however that within various subcultures create different preferred forms (ie the rap world doesn't prefer "proper English").

And I won't even point out that the slippery slope is a fallacy. ;)

[Ben E Lou]

The cycle continues because "proper English" is the privileged form.Excuse me, but that is a great big steaming pile of pure bullshit. My father grew up in utter poverty, and my mother wasn't well-off, either. They grew up in the South as poor black folks in the 20's and 30's. No one anywhere can ever make any claim that there was anything "privileged" about my parents. Somehow, they learned to use this "privileged form," though, and made dadgum sure that their children learned to use it as well.

[VPI97]

Yes, I would say it is a form of prejudice. That is a form we all naturally have. My only point is that we should try to fight that natural prejudice toward the familiar and learn to accept a wide varieties of English.Agree to disagree, I guess. My definition of prejudice would include phrases like "irrational conclusions" and "unreasonable judgements". I don't see how a natural preference to be able to smoothly communicate with another human being falls under irrational or unreasonable.

[John Galt]

John,

While I understand your position, I think it is flawed. When you speak to a customer or a vendor at work, do you use expletives? When you go to the store and ask to speak to a customer service representative, do you want someone who speaks the "King's" English, or someone that speaks colloquially?

In 10 years of work in sales, I have spoken to people around the world. Let me tell you, it is very difficult to speak to people from other parts of the world. There are different accents on the words, different tones of voice, and even different sentence structure. It is very difficult to talk these people (not a bad thing, it just takes a lot of work to listen to them).

When looking for a job, selling a product, talking to a friend, and giving a speech, you must tailor your message to the crowd you are talking to. This has nothing to do with prejudice or discrimination, it is about effectively communicating with your audience. If you make it easier for them to listen, it is easier to get your message across and leave them with something to think about.

Don't try to use the extreme to prove the rule. No one is saying four letter words are acceptable in a business environment. I'm saying when someone says "axe" instead of "ask" or says "ya'll" instead of "you all," it shouldn't be as big of deal as people make it to be. I'm just fighting the notion that there is only 1 form of English in our world now, but that doesn't mean any variation on English should be acceptable.

[John Galt]

dola, I also should note I'm only talking in terms of spoken English - written English is a whole separate issue.

[Rizon]

From the time I was very young, my parents made it very clear that it was fine to talk "black" around the kids in the neighborhood, etc., but in order to be successful we needed "learn how to talk around white folks." (That was exactly how they put it.) That seems so simple to me.

A funny anecdote: a few months after I started on Young Life staff, my brother called me at the office one day. When I got off the phone, I noticed a co-worker looking at me with a puzzled look. I asked what was up, and I could tell he was a little uncomfortable, but finally he just said, "I had no idea you could talk black!" I busted out laughing when I realized that when on the phone with family, I just naturally moved from one "language" to the other without even knowing it.

Shortly after we started dating, my wife commented on the same thing about me. Even funnier to her is that when she is the only white person present, everyone in my family talks very "black", but when we're in majority white settings, we'll all use standard English. She commented that she figured it would be the case but it was still very "different" for her to hear my brothers and sister speaking erudite standard English after hearing, "Ben, why you ain't called me in like two months? You be too busy to talk to yo' own sistah?" for example. The final moment in her "education" in this area was a couple of months ago. She used to be a branch manager for a large bank. The V.P. who hired her was black, and often worked out of an office in the branch that she managed. (As is so happens, he grew up in the same home town as I did and was friends with my older siblings...) One Sunday recently, we visited the church that he attends, so we were in a virtually all-black environment. It was a quite a surprise for her to her to hear an MBA-Bank-VP-dot-every-I-cross-every-T guy like him speaking as "black" as her often-uneducated birth mothers that she works with now. ;)

I dated a black girl who couldn't speak black at all. I had to teach her everything. It would have made a great movie.

[John Galt]

Excuse me, but that is a great big steaming pile of pure bullshit. My father grew up in utter poverty, and my mother wasn't well-off, either. They grew up in the South as poor black folks in the 20's and 30's. No one anywhere can ever make any claim that there was anything "privileged" about my parents. Somehow, they learned to use this "privileged form," though, and made dadgum sure that their children learned to use it as well.

Note again that I didn't say that "proper English" shouldn't be taught (in fact I said the exact opposite). And I am not saying that people who speak "proper English" are privileged in all aspects of their life. My only point is that "proper English" is the privileged form of language and those who use it have a leg up as a result. That is all well and good, but sometimes there is a negative effect on race through langauge as well (as my "English only" law example above illustrates).

[Noop]

So basically from what I gather I have to change who I am to get a job? I get it. Because on this board I can speak slang because no one would understand what they hell I am talking about. Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.

[Noop]

I agree with John by the way.

[cthomer5000]

Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.
Neither of them would get the job.

[primelord]

Personally, my opinion of a potential hire falls dramatically with grammatical errors on his/her resume. To me, it shows a lack of attention (or a lack of caring about) detail, which is important in nearly EVERY career path.
I guess I don't agree that it always shows a lack of attentiion to detail. In some cases it may just be the person in question doesn't always know the grammar rules. Now if you are hiring a professional writer clearly this is a problem. Even if you are hiring someone who will only be writing things occasionally, but it is still an important part of their job then it is a problem.

However in my line of work the ability to even write a coherent senetence falls well below the ability to write good code or to maintain servers. I know several very talented computer programmers who don't write very well and make many of the mistakes that have been mentioned in the various grammar rant threads around here. However they are excellent at their job and it would have been a shame for them to not have been given the chance because of a few mistakes on their resume. With that being said it also wouldn't have been shocking if they hadn't been given those chances.

[cartman]

The people here in the UK don't like it when I tell them that just because the language is named after your country, doesn't mean you speak it correctly! :D

On the continent, most people I speak with say that they learn British English in school, but prefer American English.

[Chubby]

Yes, I would say it is a form of prejudice. That is a form we all naturally have. My only point is that we should try to fight that natural prejudice toward the familiar and learn to accept a wide varieties of English.
Yet you go on about the spanish speaking person being discriminated against. Are we saying spanish is a variety of english now?

The fact is, to be successful in any job you need to be able to communicate well be it with co-workers, the public, whoever. If you can't communicate then you aren't going to be employed there for very long.

Of course the one going on and on about this being discrimination IS a lawyer, he does want more business afterall.

[kserra]

And I won't even point out that the slippery slope is a fallacy. ;)

Please do...

there is nothing racist in requiring that someone speak "proper" English in a professional setting...just as there is nothing wrong in requiring people to use correct grammar and punctuation in writing...

There needs to be a line drawn between how we speak to our friends/family in a private setting, and the language we use in a professional setting...this line is for everyone...and does not attack any one group...

Again, frat boys just out of college cannot speak as they wish in an office, a high school intern must adjust her language as well, I cannot use language that may be deemed offensive in my classroom, etc...

If we begin to accept that there are other ways of speaking in a proper setting, where do we draw the line? If we tell employers to stop being racists in judging a young black man who speaks street slang in the interview, shouldn't the employer also have to excuse the unique language that many frat boys use as well? This is the slope I see...

Kevin

[Marc Vaughan]

How so? If I am a lawyer I would defend my client the very same way some who is equal to me but instead choses to speak proper english. Another point you will lose potential clients by not hiring the best people no matter what... Business is all about profit because if you not in it for profit you need a new career.

If you had a lawyer who couldn't be clearly understood by either the judges or the jury then that would surely affect his ability to work for his clients?

In a similar manner in business there is generally a lot of competition, if say 4 vendors are offering me deals and I can understand 3 of them and one of the deals seem the best then I'll generally dismiss a fourth if I can't understand the terms (whether for legalise or because they're communicating in a way I don't comprehend), often in business things have to be implemented fairly quickly and any impediment to things will often cause a proposal to be dropped - this is simply a fact of life which I'm sure happens in pretty much all businesses.

[Noop]

Neither of them would get the job.
Cerbuis Perusbus(sp?) Crap I can spell it but I am talking about those two only and the company needs to hire someone.

[HornedFrog Purple]

So basically from what I gather I have to change who I am to get a job? I get it.

No noop, you have to change who they want you to be. They want you to fail so they can say "Just another black kid." This probably doesn't make sense to you now, but it will.

[primelord]

Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.
Aside from the fact that your point is a different discussion. I just wanted to point out that in any of the offices I have worked in over the years if a white kid and black kid showed up for a job interview and they spoke slang throught the entire interview neither one of them would have been offered the job.

Edit: Crap cthomer already said this. :)

[Chubby]

No noop, you have to change who they want you to be. They want you to fail so they can say "Just another black kid." This probably doesn't make sense to you now, but it will.

That has to be the stupidest most racist thing I've seen in this thread. Thank you for classifying every potential employer as a white racist.

[cthomer5000]

Cerbuis Perusbus(sp?) Crap I can spell it but I am talking about those two only and the company needs to hire someone.
In this mythical fantasy land, I don't know who gets hired then. It would likely depend on the type of company, the location of the company, and the type of clients they interact with.


If this is the real world, there are hundreds of other applicants who are more qualified.

[John Galt]

Yet you go on about the spanish speaking person being discriminated against. Are we saying spanish is a variety of english now?

The fact is, to be successful in any job you need to be able to communicate well be it with co-workers, the public, whoever. If you can't communicate then you aren't going to be employed there for very long.

Of course the one going on and on about this being discrimination IS a lawyer, he does want more business afterall.

Read my example again. The problem was that language was being used as a proxy for race discrimination. Spanish isn't English, but Hispanic Americans were fired while whites speaking "foreign" words were not.

And I don't litigate anything in this area, so I have no selfish motive for any of it.

[Noop]

No noop, you have to change who they want you to be. They want you to fail so they can say "Just another black kid." This probably doesn't make sense to you now, but it will.
Aye, I wanted to say something like that but I am quite sure I have said alot of things that will make folks attack me again. It is setup for you to ignore your past in order to make it... I want to rise up against "The Man!!!" :)

:)

noop

[John Galt]

Please do...

there is nothing racist in requiring that someone speak "proper" English in a professional setting...just as there is nothing wrong in requiring people to use correct grammar and punctuation in writing...

There needs to be a line drawn between how we speak to our friends/family in a private setting, and the language we use in a professional setting...this line is for everyone...and does not attack any one group...

Again, frat boys just out of college cannot speak as they wish in an office, a high school intern must adjust her language as well, I cannot use language that may be deemed offensive in my classroom, etc...

If we begin to accept that there are other ways of speaking in a proper setting, where do we draw the line? If we tell employers to stop being racists in judging a young black man who speaks street slang in the interview, shouldn't the employer also have to excuse the unique language that many frat boys use as well? This is the slope I see...

Kevin

Read what I said again. I NEVER said people shouldn't speak professionally in a professional environment. My point is that the focus on "proper English" and conceptions of what are proper accents often cloak discrimination. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING GOES.

[HornedFrog Purple]

That has to be the stupidest most racist thing I've seen in this thread. Thank you for classifying every potential employer as a white racist.

Sorry Chubby you swung and missed.

[Chubby]

Read my example again. The problem was that language was being used as a proxy for race discrimination. Spanish isn't English, but Hispanic Americans were fired while whites speaking "foreign" words were not.

And I don't litigate anything in this area, so I have no selfish motive for any of it.

It's not race discrimination, if some white guy who grew up in Mexico that spoke spanish it'd be the same thing. It has nothing to do with their race but the ability to effectivly comunicate.

[kserra]

In this mythical fantasy land, I don't know who gets hired then. It would likely depend on the type of company, the location of the company, and the type of clients they interact with.


If this is the real world, there are hundreds of other applicants who are more qualified.

yup, in that case, the position would go unfilled for a while...

and I also appreciate the post just a few up deeming all white employers as racists...thanks...did it ever occur to you that some (not all) white employers do judge the applicants on their qualifications...and some even think that having a diversified workplace is something to strive for?

Kevin

[John Galt]

If you had a lawyer who couldn't be clearly understood by either the judges or the jury then that would surely affect his ability to work for his clients?

In a similar manner in business there is generally a lot of competition, if say 4 vendors are offering me deals and I can understand 3 of them and one of the deals seem the best then I'll generally dismiss a fourth if I can't understand the terms (whether for legalise or because they're communicating in a way I don't comprehend), often in business things have to be implemented fairly quickly and any impediment to things will often cause a proposal to be dropped - this is simply a fact of life which I'm sure happens in pretty much all businesses.

Don't conflate complete incomprehensibility with having to learn varieties of English. In America it is too easy to dismiss others who speak differently with out making some effort. That is where I have a problem.

[Chubby]

Sorry Chubby you swung and missed.

No no, you're right. They all want to say "just another black kid" right? :rolleyes:

Racist and I called you out on it.

Are there people that may say that? Sure, but to make such a general statement is wrong.

[Noop]

If it is not racists what is it? Selective hiring?

[Franklinnoble]

I love Bill Cosby now. :)
Agreed.

At some point in time, it became fashionable and politically correct to embrace warped "dialects" of the English language. Why? What's the problem with expecting everyone to speak one language, and to do so properly? Turn off the damned television, stop listening to the damned music, and read a damned book already.

[Warhammer]

Actually John, there are times when using expletives at work is necessary. Again, I go back to my experience in sales. When I am making a service call out in Virginia or the Carolinas and meet with the maintenance people at an industrial plant, proper use of them is essential to build repoire with them. Since many of them are from the navy, learning to talk like a sailor is important :) .

It is amazing what a well timed expletive can do. I normally do not use them as I think they are better ways of expressing yourself, but the other day, one of my long time customers was trying to pressure me into giving them a discount due to delays in shipment. The delays were due to their constant revisions to their order. After listening to them for 10 minutes, I laid in to them. "These units would not have been late if you guys could make up your #$%@#%$ minds and quit changing the %#$ $%$! requirements every other $%#%$# day we could have shipped by the original date!"
Not only did we not have to give them a discount, we actually got some overages due to the extra work we went through on the job.

Seriously though, some times it is very necessary to talk the talk. My point is everyone should speak "proper" English unless the situation dictates otherwise (being with family, friends, etc.).

[John Galt]

It's not race discrimination, if some white guy who grew up in Mexico that spoke spanish it'd be the same thing. It has nothing to do with their race but the ability to effectivly comunicate.

Chubby, you prove yet again that you don't want to hear what anyone else has to say. Of course it is the same in Mexico. That is EXACTLY why language becomes a proxy for race discrimination. Race and language are often (but not always) tied together.

[Noop]

No no, you're right. They all want to say "just another black kid" right? :rolleyes:

Racist and I called you out on it.

Are there people that may say that? Sure, but to make such a general statement is wrong.
Since you in the mood for name calling I think your one myself. And I called you on it.

[HornedFrog Purple]

No no, you're right. They all want to say "just another black kid" right? :rolleyes:

Racist and I called you out on it.

Are there people that may say that? Sure, but to make such a general statement is wrong.

Nope.

You have no idea what I am talking about, so quit making a fool of yourself.

[Chubby]

Don't conflate complete incomprehensibility with having to learn varieties of English. In America it is too easy to dismiss others who speak differently with out making some effort. That is where I have a problem.
So, people should be able to talk however they want in any setting? We should have 1/2 the high school math class talking in spanish and the other half in english? Of course, that'd be "race discrimination" to you if we don't allow it...

[Chubby]

Nope.

You have no idea what I am talking about, so quit making a fool of yourself.

Oh ok, so please enlighten me oh knowledgeable one...

[Chubby]

Since you in the mood for name calling I think your one myself. And I called you on it.

Pray tell how I'm the racist?

[John Galt]

Seriously though, some times it is very necessary to talk the talk. My point is everyone should speak "proper" English unless the situation dictates otherwise (being with family, friends, etc.).

Strategically, I agree. I just think we others don't speak the same version of English as we do, we should try to understand and be tolerant instead of being dismissive. I recognize that is not how the real world is.

[Ben E Lou]

My only point is that "proper English" is the privileged form of language and those who use it have a leg up as a result.Again, the solution seems pretty simple: if you want a leg up, learn "proper English."

If you want a leg up in the job hiring market, there are several ways to do it:

Conform your dress to the standard expectation.
Conform your spoken language to the standard expectation.
"Conform" your education to the standard expectation (ie, if you don't have a degree, maybe you should consider earning one...)
Conform your written grammar to the standard expectation
"Conform" your skills to the standard expectation (go get certified, for example)
My point is that "conforming" one's language to an expected norm just makes sense.

[Noop]

Pray tell how I'm the racist?
The same way you could call HornedFrog Purple one. No facts or proof just talking out my ass.

[Celeval]

However in my line of work the ability to even write a coherent senetence falls well below the ability to write good code or to maintain servers.
I'm a programmer/designer type myself, so I'm in the same industry - and to an extent, that makes it just as important. If you're putting yourself forward as someone who has experience with (for example) Windows 2000/XP, Microsoft Office, and Visual Studio - then not using the functionality built into those products is a huge strike. If you're going to claim experience in Word, use the damn spellchecker. Use the grammar checker. I'm not grading you, I'm not taking off points for margins being wrong, but you're not willing to take enough pride in a resume that represents you directly, then how can I expect you to take pride in a product that represents your company?

Kevin

[wig]

/back 45minutes

[cthomer5000]

Strategically, I agree. I just think we others don't speak the same version of English as we do, we should try to understand and be tolerant instead of being dismissive. I recognize that is not how the real world is.
I agree with that.

I honestly think that in most job settings it's a function of economoics, not discrimination, that would keep someone who didn't speak "proper" English from being hired.

Are they really being discriminatory if they "proper" english happens to be the type of english that will best communicate with the majority of their customer base? Is that discrimination or good business sense?

[Chubby]

The same way you could call HornedFrog Purple one. No facts or proof just talking out my ass.

Nope, sorry. See, I actually gave a reason for my calling his statement racist. He made a blanket statement saying that any employer just wants to say "just another black kid" and to see you fail. That's just not correct, maybe in some parts of the country it is more prevelant than others but in now way do I think that that is even the majority feeling.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Aye, I wanted to say something like that but I am quite sure I have said alot of things that will make folks attack me again. It is setup for you to ignore your past in order to make it... I want to rise up against "The Man!!!" :)

:)

noop

You aren't rising up against "The Man", "The Man" is all colors. "The Man" wants to look at you speaking like a uneducated, black ghetto kid, and then will treat you like one. How do you think Colin Powell has achieved what he has? Or any other number of black people? Because they broke the stereotype.

You have to compete on the same level as anyone else or "The Man" will just toss you aside before you even get two sentences out.

[Radii]

So basically from what I gather I have to change who I am to get a job? I get it. Because on this board I can speak slang because no one would understand what they hell I am talking about.

We have a guy in our office from the Virgin Islands. When he is on the phone with his family, his accent is so thick that we literally cannot understand half of what he says, even though he is speaking plain english. Around everyone else he is easy to understand. He never talks about "changing who he is" like he has a chip on his shoulder.

We also have a girl who is indian. Her accent is quite thick. On the phone I cannot understand her and often have to ask her to repeat herself. When she is in our office and face to face and I can watch her speak, I can pick up most everything though. She is shielded from customers because most of our customers would not be able to understand her. This means more work for everyone, we all occasionally have to talk to a customer for her, or pick up her slack b/c of the language barrier. She is very technically competant though so she is employed.

Are we racist because we don't want the girl who cannot be understood by many customers talking to customers? Are we racist b/c we appreciate the guy with the *thick* island accent toning it down when he talks to everyone else?

Honestly, noop, I think you are picking a battle that doesn't need to be fought, and going into it with a major chip on your shoulder.

I hate dressing up past jeans and a t-shirt. Hell, I don't even like jeans, I'd prefer shorts. I only own khakis and polo shirts b/c my job has a dress code that requires them.

I cuss a lot outside of work, with my friends. I don't cuss very often in the office. Do these thigns mean I'm forced to "change who I am" to work? Sort of, but its just not worth fighting, even though I could go to work in shorts, cussing every other word and get my job done just as well. Just not a battle worth fighting. I refuse to wear a suit, so I won't take a job that requires it. I'm limiting myself, knowingly and intentionally, in this way,and i'm fine with it.

BTW, I really like the example given earlier of the valley girl teen, "like, um, yeah, seriously, whatever, I'm 21." It's not a race thing here, that girl doesn't get hired either if that's how she conducts herself at an interview.

Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.

[cthomer5000]

I'm a programmer/designer type myself, so I'm in the same industry - and to an extent, that makes it just as important. If you're putting yourself forward as someone who has experience with (for example) Windows 2000/XP, Microsoft Office, and Visual Studio - then not using the functionality built into those products is a huge strike. If you're going to claim experience in Word, use the damn spellchecker. Use the grammar checker. I'm not grading you, I'm not taking off points for margins being wrong, but you're not willing to take enough pride in a resume that represents you directly, then how can I expect you to take pride in a product that represents your company?

KevinResume mistakes drive me insane. This is how you are presenting yourself to your employer (for better or worse). Take the time to make sure it is accurate, up-to-date, and error free. Attention to detail is a key skill in almost any job, and those who show a lack of it in their first impression get little sympathy from me.

edit: spelling error.... oh, the irony!

[Chubby]

You aren't rising up against "The Man", "The Man" is all colors. "The Man" wants to look at you speaking like a uneducated, black ghetto kid, and then will treat you like one. How do you think Colin Powell has achieved what he has? Or any other number of black people? Because they broke the stereotype.

You have to compete on the same level as anyone else or "The Man" will just toss you aside before you even get two sentences out.

If a white kid walked in the door for an interview and started speaking like an uneducated, white priveliged kid he'd get tossed out just as fast as your example. It's not a color issue, it's a education and communication issue but you don't want to see that.

[wig]

Background checks are racist too.

[wig]

So is requiring an education

[wig]

And drug tests

[JonInMiddleGA]

And people say political threads here have predictable outcomes.
Sheesh.

[wig]

*wig puts his thread sniper rifle away*

[primelord]

I'm a programmer/designer type myself, so I'm in the same industry - and to an extent, that makes it just as important. If you're putting yourself forward as someone who has experience with (for example) Windows 2000/XP, Microsoft Office, and Visual Studio - then not using the functionality built into those products is a huge strike. If you're going to claim experience in Word, use the damn spellchecker. Use the grammar checker. I'm not grading you, I'm not taking off points for margins being wrong, but you're not willing to take enough pride in a resume that represents you directly, then how can I expect you to take pride in a product that represents your company?

Kevin
I understand where you are coming from. I do however think in this particular situation it can lead to a lessor candidate getting the job just because they have better understanding of proper grammar. I do agree there is very little excuse for an incorrectly spelled word on a resume. That is pure laziness. The grammar checker is a whole different ball game though. It is not always correct with it's suggestions as it doesn't always properly identify what you were trying to say. If you don't understand the grammar rule in the first place then just blindly following Word's grammar checker can make for a pretty unreadable sentence.

With that all being said I understand that employers generally have a ton of resumes to go through and they need to find a way to thin the field to even make it managable. If you have determined that someone who doesn't correctly place commas is likely to also not be a good employee then so be it. However I will say again that I know several people who are very good at their job who don't write well at all. Any company looking for C++ programmers would be making a mistake by passing on them because of a grammatical error in their resume. They might be the exception to the rule, but it still shows that it may not always be in your best interest to just dismiss someone from a mistake on their resume.

[Noop]

You aren't rising up against "The Man", "The Man" is all colors. "The Man" wants to look at you speaking like a uneducated, black ghetto kid, and then will treat you like one. How do you think Colin Powell has achieved what he has? Or any other number of black people? Because they broke the stereotype.

You have to compete on the same level as anyone else or "The Man" will just toss you aside before you even get two sentences out.
Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.

[Chubby]

We have a guy in our office from the Virgin Islands. When he is on the phone with his family, his accent is so thick that we literally cannot understand half of what he says, even though he is speaking plain english. Around everyone else he is easy to understand. He never talks about "changing who he is" like he has a chip on his shoulder.

We also have a girl who is indian. Her accent is quite thick. On the phone I cannot understand her and often have to ask her to repeat herself. When she is in our office and face to face and I can watch her speak, I can pick up most everything though. She is shielded from customers because most of our customers would not be able to understand her. This means more work for everyone, we all occasionally have to talk to a customer for her, or pick up her slack b/c of the language barrier. She is very technically competant though so she is employed.

Are we racist because we don't want the girl who cannot be understood by many customers talking to customers? Are we racist b/c we appreciate the guy with the *thick* island accent toning it down when he talks to everyone else?

Honestly, noop, I think you are picking a battle that doesn't need to be fought, and going into it with a major chip on your shoulder.

I hate dressing up past jeans and a t-shirt. Hell, I don't even like jeans, I'd prefer shorts. I only own khakis and polo shirts b/c my job has a dress code that requires them.

I cuss a lot outside of work, with my friends. I don't cuss very often in the office. Do these thigns mean I'm forced to "change who I am" to work? Sort of, but its just not worth fighting, even though I could go to work in shorts, cussing every other word and get my job done just as well. Just not a battle worth fighting. I refuse to wear a suit, so I won't take a job that requires it. I'm limiting myself, knowingly and intentionally, in this way,and i'm fine with it.

BTW, I really like the example given earlier of the valley girl teen, "like, um, yeah, seriously, whatever, I'm 21." It's not a race thing here, that girl doesn't get hired either if that's how she conducts herself at an interview.

/looks at noop's post above and nods with radii's post

[HornedFrog Purple]

If a white kid walked in the door for an interview and started speaking like an uneducated, white priveliged kid he'd get tossed out just as fast as your example. It's not a color issue, it's a education and communication issue but you don't want to see that.

It's obvious you don't even read before you hit quote.

1. I was speaking to noop. Maybe that's why I quoted him.
2. You can replace "Just another black kid" to "Just another piece of white trash", "Just another mexican", et cetera. Your red herring can take a hiatus.

Obviously, this is a communication issue.

[wig]

Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.

You're still in high school, aren't you? :)

[Noop]

You're still in high school, aren't you? :)
Sadly yes. :(

[cthomer5000]

Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.
I think this is an entirely different thread, as nothing you wrote about pertains to race whatsoever. That's more of a general attack on the structure of our society.

[VPI97]

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/VPI97/timeline.gif

[HornedFrog Purple]

Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.

Well welcome to the real world. Everybody has to go through it. :D

[Chubby]

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/VPI97/timeline.gif


:rolleyes:

[kserra]

Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.

noop,

all I can say to your many posts is I'm sorry...

sorry that you are so angry,

sorry that you don't realize everyone must "play the game" to get a job,

sorry that you see racism everywhere, even in well-meaning people,

sorry that until you remove that chip on your shoulder, you will make your life a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and embitterment while blaming your failures on others and never looking in the mirror...

are some people racist? yes
are most? no
do all people hate conforming and "playing the game"? hell yes
do most suck it up and do it, while trying to maintain some sense of self? yes

that's all...

Kevin

[Noop]

I think this is an entirely different thread, as nothing you wrote about pertains to race whatsoever. That's more of a general attack on the structure of our society.I was talking to HornedFrog Purple.

"Kserra - sorry that until you remove that chip on your shoulder, you will make your life a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and embitterment while blaming your failures on others and never looking in the mirror..."

I am the maker of my own problems. If I am poor I sure as hell am not going to say it is the white mans fault. It would be my fault because I chose to believe what I believe. I am not angry believe me I am not I am in awe of how people accept this...

[Franklinnoble]

Sadly yes. :(
Why is that sad? You haven't been expelled or anything... and, honestly, it doesn't get any easier for you. I'd be pretty happy if I were still in high school... well, except for the fact that I'm almost 30... I'd probably be embarassed... but, you know, high school chicks like older guys, so...

Eh... I got nothing.

[wig]

kserra - I am not angry just can't understand why people accept it.

When you are in the real world for a few years, you'll understand.

[Chubby]

cthomer - noop and HFP are having a private convo that we aren't allowed to comment on for some reason.

[Ksyrup]

I realize that there is a racial overtone to this particular issue (with regard to speech), but really, this is no different than a white kid with long hair who wants to get a job in corporate America. Hell, look at the hippie guy from ESPN's Dream Job competition. You heard it straight from "The Man" representing ESPN - that's not the image ESPN wants to portray.

That's the bottom line. Black, white, green, or blue, we all have to change who we are in some respect to make ourselves as attractive as we can to those with the power to hire. I dress like an absolute slob when I'm not working, but I never bring that into the office, because if I did, I wouldn't be sitting in this particular office right now. That's just life, folks.

[Tekneek]

Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.

If you want to speak slang/street, that is fine. Don't blame other people, or society, when you don't get the opportunities that you think you deserve. We all make choices in life, and we have to live with the consequences, and most of them are nobody else's fault. *THAT* was his point.

[Tekneek]

It is only because "proper" English is practiced by the largely white majority that other forms of English are held in lower regard.

Go to France and speak a poor form of French, that a lot of French people may have trouble understanding. Try to be successful with this. Do you think you will find success? I'd guess not. It's because you are not speaking the appropriate language for what you are trying to do. It's not unfair, it's a reality. You made the decision to not learn proper French before you got started. It is the same principle. If you can't speak clearly in the language used in that business, society, etc, you should not expect to have the same opportunity as someone who can. It gives you one extra hurdle that you have to clear.

[Noop]

If you want to speak slang/street, that is fine. Don't blame other people, or society, when you don't get the opportunities that you think you deserve. We all make choices in life, and we have to live with the consequences, and most of them are nobody else's fault. *THAT* was his point.
Please spare me. Your taking it entirely wrong. Period.

[Arles]

I am not angry believe me I am not I am in awe of how people accept this...
Then complete devote yourself to a marketable passion and start your own company. Then you make the rules and can atleast behave how you wish a majority of the time (although you may still need to make occasional changes when dealing with clients).

[Chubby]

Please spare me. Your taking it entirely wrong. Period.

And if you are equating talking slang in a business atmosphere to slavery then YOU are taking it entirely wrong. Period. Exclamation point.

[Franklinnoble]

Then complete devote yourself to a marketable passion and start your own company. Then you make the rules and can atleast behave how you wish a majority of the time (although you may still need to make occasional changes when dealing with clients).
Bah. Get buffed out and become an underwear model... won't matter how you speak at that point.

[wig]

ok, this topic is dead now.

[wig]

We need 1 more owner for WigFL.

[Noop]

And if you are equating talking slang in a business atmosphere to slavery then YOU are taking it entirely wrong. Period. Exclamation point.
I was making an example. You are looking for something I am not going to give you. Period. Go back to making fun of Dean Houston. Period.

[wig]

WigFL isn't racist, like job interviews are.

[wig]

WigFL isn't racist, like the English language is.

[heybrad]

Noop...

Just a note from one old FOFCer to a young FOFCer. You have you're whole life ahead of you. If you've decided at this young age that you're going to fail no matter what... guess what, you probably will. I'm only throwing this out there, because I had some crappy things earlier in life and it was pointed out to me that being your age is probably the best time to make good things happen. It doesnt get any easier as you get older.

[wig]

However, if you are a black man on a bicycle in the street as stevew walks home from work, don't be shocked if he runs away.

[cthomer5000]

I was talking to HornedFrog Purple.
Oh, ok...

Just so you know, you posted this in the general discussion forum (not as a private message). You might want to double-check next time.

[wig]

He's not being racist, he's just scared to lose his $8 and pack of smokes.

[Chubby]

I was making an example. You are looking for something I am not going to give you. Period. Go back to making fun of Dean Houston. Period.
Go back to your private conversation with HFP and hating the world. Period. Exclamation point.

Your example was incredibly poor, deal with it.

[John Galt]

Again, the solution seems pretty simple: if you want a leg up, learn "proper English."

If you want a leg up in the job hiring market, there are several ways to do it:

Conform your dress to the standard expectation.
Conform your spoken language to the standard expectation.
"Conform" your education to the standard expectation (ie, if you don't have a degree, maybe you should consider earning one...)
Conform your written grammar to the standard expectation
"Conform" your skills to the standard expectation (go get certified, for example)
My point is that "conforming" one's language to an expected norm just makes sense.

Those are pretty high standards for someone who is speaking English as a Second Language and/or someone who was raised in an environment were "proper English" wasn't widely used. I'm a believer in teaching "proper English," but I also believe in tolerating and trying to understand those that don't.

[wig]

And don't be scared of solly, even though he looks exactly like Powder.

[Noop]

Noop...

Just a note from one old FOFCer to a young FOFCer. You have you're whole life ahead of you. If you've decided at this young age that you're going to fail no matter what... guess what, you probably will. I'm only throwing this out there, because I had some crappy things earlier in life and it was pointed out to me that being your age is probably the best time to make good things happen. It doesnt get any easier as you get older.
I know I am not going to fail. I am just amazed by people's actions and what not. Believe me when I say I learn alot from these type of threads. I just don't like folks giving me sideway remarks. But thank you for the advice.

[HornedFrog Purple]

cthomer - noop and HFP are having a private convo that we aren't allowed to comment on for some reason.

You attempt to bait me is worse than Sam Horn against a lefty.

Noop, I wish I was asking these kind of questions when I was your age. At least you are being honest. When I went out into the "real world" I was more confused than you were. In fact, I was downright scared because my environment was always around my own people (am I allowed to say that Chubby?). But as the years went by, I realized you have to give a little to get a little. Everybody does whether you have long hair, piercing on every oriface, can't speak a lick of English or whatever. Is that fair? Probably not. But it is socially fair.

The only way you are going to break the mold is to smash it with a sledgehammer and never look back. But don't let anyone ever tell you who you are.

[heybrad]

Did I not get the memo? Are we supposed to spell out the end of our sentences now question mark

[Chubby]

Did I not get the memo? Are we supposed to spell out the end of our sentences now question mark
hey brad :p

Do you have a copy of the memo? Well, I'll make sure you get a copy of the memo.

[wig]

spelling punctuation is racist.

[John Galt]

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/VPI97/timeline.gif

LOL. :D

[Chubby]

You attempt to bait me is worse than Sam Horn against a lefty.

Noop, I wish I was asking these kind of questions when I was your age. At least you are being honest. When I went out into the "real world" I was more confused than you were. In fact, I was downright scared because my environment was always around my own people (am I allowed to say that Chubby?). But as the years went by, I realized you have to give a little to get a little. Everybody does whether you have long hair, piercing on every oriface, can't speak a lick of English or whatever. Is that fair? Probably not. But it is socially fair.

The only way you are going to break the mold is to smash it with a sledgehammer and never look back. But don't let anyone ever tell you who you are.

Just as cthomer pointed, it is silly to post on a message board then turn around and say "I was talking to x!" that's all I was saying in that post you quoted.

[Noop]

Go back to your private conversation with HFP and hating the world. Period. Exclamation point.

Your example was incredibly poor, deal with it.You have a personal problem please state it. Because you are going after me for some reason much like everyone else here when I disagree with popular opinion. So state it. I am younger then you yet your acting like a child? Do you want to fight or something? Are you smoking that reefer? Please explain...because I am quite confused by your comments to me.

[John Galt]

I realize that there is a racial overtone to this particular issue (with regard to speech), but really, this is no different than a white kid with long hair who wants to get a job in corporate America. Hell, look at the hippie guy from ESPN's Dream Job competition. You heard it straight from "The Man" representing ESPN - that's not the image ESPN wants to portray.

That's the bottom line. Black, white, green, or blue, we all have to change who we are in some respect to make ourselves as attractive as we can to those with the power to hire. I dress like an absolute slob when I'm not working, but I never bring that into the office, because if I did, I wouldn't be sitting in this particular office right now. That's just life, folks.

Except that language/accent changes aren't as easy (especially for people learning a second language).

[stevew]

However, if you are a black man on a bicycle in the street as stevew walks home from work, don't be shocked if he runs away.

Alright, that was a low blow dude.

[Arles]

Those are pretty high standards for someone who is speaking English as a Second Language and/or someone who was raised in an environment were "proper English" wasn't widely used. I'm a believer in teaching "proper English," but I also believe in tolerating and trying to understand those that don't.
My thought on this is to tolerate and try understand those that don't speak "proper English". But, to also assume that everyone else will not tolerate it.

Do that and you will be fine.

[Chubby]

You have a personal problem please state it. Because you are going after me for some reason much like everyone else here when I disagree with popular opinion. So state it. I am young then you yet your acting like a child? Do you want to fight or something? Are you smoking that reefer? Please explain...because I am quite confused by your comments to me.

Noop, everyone doesn't have a personal problem with you despite what you think. "much like everyone else here" yet you feel the need to call me out? w/e doesn't bother me.

You want to continue on your "everyone is out to get me, I'm not changing anything I do cause nothing I do is wrong" routine then go ahead but people ARE going to tell you you're wrong. As has been stated before, not everyone is racist, not everyone is biased because of someone's age.

[Chubby]

My thought on this is to tolerate and try understand those that don't speak "proper English". But, to also assume that everyone else will not tolerate it.

Do that and you will be fine.

Arles - If two people come to you with a work project, one who talks in slang and one who articulates himself in a professional manner who are you more inclined to listen to more?

[primelord]

Arles - If two people come to you with a work project, one who talks in slang and one who articulates himself in a professional manner who are you more inclined to listen to more?
Are you implying that you should be more inclined to listen to the person who articulates themselves well?

[cuervo72]

Except that language/accent changes aren't as easy (especially for people learning a second language).

But how many generations does it take for a language to stop being a secondary language and become a primary language? Yes, this may be difficult if you've grown up in a place where only another language or dialect has been used. I would think there would be countless examples of second generation Americans that have little or no accent; why is it that these differences persist?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Just as cthomer pointed, it is silly to post on a message board then turn around and say "I was talking to x!" that's all I was saying in that post you quoted.

Just so he knows, I am talking to Chubby!

I didn't think I would have to state "I was talking to x!" since I turned around and quoted him. If I would have said "Just another piece of white trash" how does that make any sense to noop?

I have been down that same road many years ago, I am just trying to hopefully give him directions to get him out of it. I don't give a damn what you think. Period.

[Chubby]

Are you implying that you should be more inclined to listen to the person who articulates themselves well?

Yes. If these convos take place...

"See, uh, like I have this new game that like I want to make. It would be so cool if you would look at my design document dude. Huh? Awesome!"

"I have a desigin document for a game I have been working on that I would like you to look at, thank you."


I know I would certainly give more time to the 2nd person vs the 1st person as I think any professional would in a similar situation.

[John Galt]

My thought on this is to tolerate and try understand those that don't speak "proper English". But, to also assume that everyone else will not tolerate it.

Do that and you will be fine.

And that has been my position throughout this thread.

[Arles]

Arles - If two people come to you with a work project, one who talks in slang and one who articulates himself in a professional manner who are you more inclined to listen to more?
Depends how bad the slang is. The most compitant developer I every worked with was from Africa and difficult to understand. Yet, he did amazing work as a developer. Because of that experience, I would give the slang guy the benefit of the doubt until I could see the work of both people.

That said, I don't know if I represent the majority. Nor would I behave like that was the case if I had a think accent or slang dialect.

**EDIT** Also, the nature of business I am in allows me to be more flexible in this area than if that person were working as a bank teller.

[Chubby]

Just so he knows, I am talking to Chubby!

I didn't think I would have to state "I was talking to x!" since I turned around and quoted him. If I would have said "Just another piece of white trash" how does that make any sense to noop?

I have been down that same road many years ago, I am just trying to hopefully give him directions to get him out of it. I don't give a damn what you think. Period.

Because by using a term to describe someone's race you are making it a racial issue. A more accurate thing to have said would have been "Just another uneducated kid" if race doesn't have anything to do with it (as you are saying). By saying what you did, you;re only playing into noop's "they're all out to change me" paranoia.

Everyone that is out of college has been down that road, again, it has nothing to do with skin color.

[wig]

Messageboards are racist

[primelord]

Yes. If these convos take place...

"See, uh, like I have this new game that like I want to make. It would be so cool if you would look at my design document dude. Huh? Awesome!"

"I have a desigin document for a game I have been working on that I would like you to look at, thank you."


I know I would certainly give more time to the 2nd person vs the 1st person as I think any professional would in a similar situation.
That is unfortunate. By not giving them equal time you may be missing out on the better idea. My point to Noop was that he would benefit from speaking proper english because it would give him more opportunities in life. That's the way things are. That doesn't mean that's the way things should be.

[Chubby]

Depends how bad the slang is. The most compitant developer I every worked with was from Africa and difficult to understand. Yet, he did amazing work as a developer. Because of that experience, I would give the slang guy the benefit of the doubt until I could see the work of both people.

That said, I don't know if I represent the majority. Nor would I behave like that was the case if I had a think accent or slang dialect.

Doh< i wasn't clear. Slang as in my example to primelord not as an accent.

To me, I have no problem with accents. As you pointed out, someone from another country may be difficult to understand but as long as they talk professionaly I don't have a problem with it. The problem I have is people using "like, dude, swearing, etc..." in a business climate.

[John Galt]

But how many generations does it take for a language to stop being a secondary language and become a primary language? Yes, this may be difficult if you've grown up in a place where only another language or dialect has been used. I would think there would be countless examples of second generation Americans that have little or no accent; why is it that these differences persist?

I think it always depends. Look at an easy case like a Southern accent. Even though people speak the same language, it is hard to rid yourself of that accent (although some people can do it with ease). I know in NYC some people hear a Southern accent and think "redneck." That is a problem in my mind. Yet I think those regional differences may always exist and that is why tolerance is important. Immigrants often assimilate language-wise within 1 or 2 generations, but there are always more immigrants, so that too is probably always going to be an issue.

[wig]

slang is racist

[wig]

Oprah is racist, that's no joke.

[John Galt]

That is unfortunate. By not giving them equal time you may be missing out on the better idea. My point to Noop was that he would benefit from speaking proper english because it would give him more opportunities in life. That's the way things are. That doesn't mean that's the way things should be.

And just as with Arles's comment, I agree with this entirely.

[Tekneek]

I don't think that people with college degrees should automatically be considered better qualified for jobs. However, I made the choice to not get a degree, so that's just the way it is. I should not blame society and other people for my choice. It's the same sort of situation.

[Chubby]

That is unfortunate. By not giving them equal time you may be missing out on the better idea. My point to Noop was that he would benefit from speaking proper english because it would give him more opportunities in life. That's the way things are. That doesn't mean that's the way things should be.

As I said, I'd give more time to the 2nd person. Never said I'd dismiss the the 1st person completely for the same reason you stated.

But as I think cthomer pointed out, resumes. You make an error-filled resume, whether it be grammar or something else and you're not going to get looked at. You WILL have your resume dumped in the trash in an instant.

[Young Drachma]

When Cosby finally concluded, Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert, NAACP President Kweisi Mfume and NAACP legal defense fund head Theodore Shaw came to the podium looking stone-faced. Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African-American, and many of the problems his organization has addressed in the black community were not self-inflicted.

According to someone I know who was there, the media misinterpreted the story. Cosby wasn't the keynote speaker or anything like that. He decided to go on a rant, after receiving an award for philanthrophy. So, if there was shock it was because they didn't expect him to go on like that.

She said that most of the people there received his remarks well, applauded and all that. So, it wasn't some big "outrage" like all the colored folks don't want to face the truth.

These threads are always interesting, no matter where you read them. Because it always makes me think people sit around wanting to say things like this all the time and they don't feel like they can say it until someone else does, then they can like "See, See...even a black person feels that way."

Cosby was preaching to the choir, saying nothing that no one in that audience didn't know. I don't see what the big deal is.

[cthomer5000]

But as I think cthomer pointed out, resumes. You make an error-filled resume, whether it be grammar or something else and you're not going to get looked at. You WILL have your resume dumped in the trash in an instant.
A definite fact. Actually - write it down!.

I was in charge of hiring for a position recently... and we had so many qualified applicants that I had to find a place to start. F'ed up resumes were dumped immediately, and that still left me with way too many resumes to reasonably handle.

[cuervo72]

I think it always depends. Look at an easy case like a Southern accent. Even though people speak the same language, it is hard to rid yourself of that accent (although some people can do it with ease). I know in NYC some people hear a Southern accent and think "redneck." That is a problem in my mind. Yet I think those regional differences may always exist and that is why tolerance is important. Immigrants often assimilate language-wise within 1 or 2 generations, but there are always more immigrants, so that too is probably always going to be an issue.

The southern accent is the most notable one, and one I thought of immediately (actually, a New York accent is another one - and one that I find personally more grating than a southern accent :) ). That is an accent that covers a large area though, as opposed to what could be considered smaller "pockets". It's dominant in the region, but I wouldn't think that would be the case in other examples, such as an 'ebonic' dialect or a Hispanic one. I suppose I may be naive as to the extent that there is a lack of integration in some areas.

-----

I would have thought that wish mass communication forms such as radio and television, that some of these accents would have begun to largely go away...

[primelord]

But as I think cthomer pointed out, resumes. You make an error-filled resume, whether it be grammar or something else and you're not going to get looked at. You WILL have your resume dumped in the trash in an instant.
And again I will say that I don't believe that is the way things should be. Certainly it depends on the job. If your resume has grammatical errors in it and part of your responsibilities will include writing then that is obviously a problem. If you are a computer programmer then it isn't always as big of a deal.

So in my programmer it is easy to just trash the resume with mistakes as assuming the person has no attention to detail. Again I agree with this assessment if there are spelling mistakes. Not running a spell checker in inexcusable. However despite the availabilty of a grammar checker in word it isn't always very good and really doesn't help if you don;t understand the rule anyway. That doesn't mean that person isn't a fantastic prgrammer. It only means he isn't a very good writer. Assuming he is just lazy can lead to a great employee not getting a chance because you made an assumption without getting to know the candidate.

It's the same thign with judgeing them by the way they speak. You are missing out by not giving them equal time just because they don't speak proper english. Everyone udnerstands that is the way the world is. However that doesn't mean you have to be that way.

[John Galt]

The southern accent is the most notable one, and one I thought of immediately (actually, a New York accent is another one - and one that I find personally more grating than a southern accent :) ). That is an accent that covers a large area though, as opposed to what could be considered smaller "pockets". It's dominant in the region, but I wouldn't think that would be the case in other examples, such as an 'ebonic' dialect or a Hispanic one. I suppose I may be naive as to the extent that there is a lack of integration in some areas.

-----

I would have thought that wish mass communication forms such as radio and television, that some of these accents would have begun to largely go away...

Not in my neck of the woods. Walking down the street, you hear every accent, language, and variation on English.

[cthomer5000]

actually, a New York accent is another one - and one that I find personally more grating than a southern accent :) )
There are more than just 1, and they're pretty different actually. Still - they're all horrible. :)

Long Island (the WORST), Brooklyn, Yonkers, all differnt, all bad.
South Jersey is also the typical "jersey" accent, and it's equally bad. Luckily, I've dodged them all - but deal with them on a regular basis in NYC.

[primelord]

A definite fact. Actually - write it down!.

I was in charge of hiring for a position recently... and we had so many qualified applicants that I had to find a place to start. F'ed up resumes were dumped immediately, and that still left me with way too many resumes to reasonably handle.
And I understand that. I also understand why employers many times just cut out the resumes of candidates without degrees. Even though some of those may have actually been a better fit for the job. I still think it is unfortunate when a mistake like that costs a company a great employee.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Because by using a term to describe someone's race you are making it a racial issue. A more accurate thing to have said would have been "Just another uneducated kid" if race doesn't have anything to do with it (as you are saying). By saying what you did, you;re only playing into noop's "they're all out to change me" paranoia.

Everyone that is out of college has been down that road, again, it has nothing to do with skin color.

Next time I try to relate to what noop is thinking from personal experience, I'll ask your permission. I apologize. If it's because it's something you don't want to hear, I don't apologize.

Call me a racist, I really don't care. Racism has nothing to do with words, it has everything to do with power. I contend you have little idea what actual racism is and that is good. Keep it that way.

[Chubby]

And again I will say that I don't believe that is the way things should be. Certainly it depends on the job. If your resume has grammatical errors in it and part of your responsibilities will include writing then that is obviously a problem. If you are a computer programmer then it isn't always as big of a deal.

So in my programmer it is easy to just trash the resume with mistakes as assuming the person has no attention to detail. Again I agree with this assessment if there are spelling mistakes. Not running a spell checker in inexcusable. However despite the availabilty of a grammar checker in word it isn't always very good and really doesn't help if you don;t understand the rule anyway. That doesn't mean that person isn't a fantastic prgrammer. It only means he isn't a very good writer. Assuming he is just lazy can lead to a great employee not getting a chance because you made an assumption without getting to know the candidate.

It's the same thign with judgeing them by the way they speak. You are missing out by not giving them equal time just because they don't speak proper english. Everyone udnerstands that is the way the world is. However that doesn't mean you have to be that way.I totally disagree, if you can't take the effort to proof-read your resume and make it the best it can be than you shouldn't get any job you apply for with that resume. I don't care if it's working at Burger King, writing code, or driving truck for a living. It goes to taking pride in what you do, attention to detail, and the willingness to do their best. If they can't be bothered to proofread their resume, why would I expect them to do their best in that job?

[CraigSca]

I understand what John Galt is saying - that it's unfortunate that one may be missing out on opportunities and/or learning something by not being more tolerant of a person's use of slang/hair length/body odor etc. However, in the business world especially, people just don't have the time (nor can they afford) to do this.

I see no problem with not hiring a person because they do not have the skills necessary to do the job correctly. Let's face it, communicaton is key in the business world. Whether you are directly interfacing with customers, or working in a team environment, the ability to effectively communicate your ideas is paramount. To call that prejudice is ridiculous. Can it occur? Certainly. But to make that jump right from the get-go is a bunch of "hooey".

[cthomer5000]

So in my programmer it is easy to just trash the resume with mistakes as assuming the person has no attention to detail. Again I agree with this assessment if there are spelling mistakes. Not running a spell checker in inexcusable. However despite the availabilty of a grammar checker in word it isn't always very good and really doesn't help if you don;t understand the rule anyway. That doesn't mean that person isn't a fantastic prgrammer. It only means he isn't a very good writer. Assuming he is just lazy can lead to a great employee not getting a chance because you made an assumption without getting to know the candidate.

It's the same thign with judgeing them by the way they speak. You are missing out by not giving them equal time just because they don't speak proper english. Everyone udnerstands that is the way the world is. However that doesn't mean you have to be that way.
I agree with you on an "ideals" level. On a practical level, don't you have to start discriminating somewhere though? I can't interview every applicant, and I think doing away with those who didn't take the time to present an error-free resume is a pretty fair way to start.

[Senator]

they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.


Wait, this sounds like my life!!!


And just from my perspective. HFP is the least racist guy I know. He's one of the good guys, so I don't really enjoy seeing him attacked like this.

[GrantDawg]

I would have thought that wish mass communication forms such as radio and television, that some of these accents would have begun to largely go away...
I have lived in the South my entire life. My family are all from the South, and pretty much all have strong accents. Yet for some reason I do not. I credit it totally to television.

[Chubby]

Next time I try to relate to what noop is thinking from personal experience, I'll ask your permission. I apologize. If it's because it's something you don't want to hear, I don't apologize.

Call me a racist, I really don't care. Racism has nothing to do with words, it has everything to do with power. I contend you have little idea what actual racism is and that is good. Keep it that way.
What am I not wanting to hear?

You're right, I don't have a lot of expereince with racism and I do try to keep it that way. Have I seen it? Yeah, a little but not a lot and I've tried to correct it whenever I see it (as I have in this thread).

I guess this is a north/south thing I don't know. I've lived in upstate NY my whole life and like I've said, I've seen racism but not to the extent that I think it happens in south (which I'm defining as below the mason-dixon line). I maintain that it's not as prevelent as noop makes it seem but as you are relating to noops personal experience, I base my beliefs off of my personal experiences.

[Chubby]

Wait, this sounds like my life!!!


And just from my perspective. HFP is the least racist guy I know. He's one of the good guys, so I don't really enjoy seeing him attacked like this.ARGHHHHH I never said he was racist I said what he said was racist.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... the ability to effectively communicate your ideas is paramount.
Truer words have never been spoken by mortal man.

[GrantDawg]

Of course they all have spelling skill, but I do not. I also credit that to television.

edit: far from a dola.

[Noop]

Wait, this sounds like my life!!!
Maybe I'll be a Senator too :) But I will have my eyes on the white house the whole time :)

[Arles]

I understand what John Galt is saying - that it's unfortunate that one may be missing out on opportunities and/or learning something by not being more tolerant of a person's use of slang/hair length/body odor etc. However, in the business world especially, people just don't have the time (nor can they afford) to do this.
I think this hits the nail on the head. Business resume screeners often have a limited timeframe to look through tons of resumes. Past experience (and studies) have shown that resumes with poor grammar or ones without college experience have a low probability in actually leading to that person being chosen for the position. Therefore, many will toss them out as a timesaver, even though there is a small chance they may be tossing out the best person.

Think of it like being a baseball scout. If someone comes in for a trial as a pitcher and they are 5-8 and throw 80 MPH tops, it's doubtful the scout will sign him even if he's had some level of success and may even have the potential to be the next great starter. The pitcher's initial presentation of himself puts him as a severe longshot to make it in the bigs.

[John Galt]

To call that prejudice is ridiculous. Can it occur? Certainly. But to make that jump right from the get-go is a bunch of "hooey".

As in many political threads, people seem to fear being called "prejudiced" or even worse, "racist" (even though no one ever actually is called "racist"). Making assumptions based on language variaitons is the very definition of prejudice (from dictionary.com)

1 a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

My point is that using language differences as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice. I know most people hate the idea that they could in fact be prejudiced, but IMO everyone of us is. That is how people work. The task for us, IMO, is to recognize our prejudices and try to minimize their effect on other people.

And just to preempt. I'm NOT saying communication isn't essential in the workplace. I'm saying that learning to tolerate different communication styles/accents/variations is something to which we should all aspire.

[Chubby]

As in many political threads, people seem to fear being called "prejudiced" or even worse, "racist" (even though no one ever actually is called "racist"). It is the very definition of prejudice (from dictionary.com)

1 a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

My point is that using language differences as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice. I know most people hate the idea that they could in fact be prejudiced, but IMO everyone of us is. That is how people work. The task for us, IMO, is to recognize our prejudices and try to mnimize their effect on other people.

And just to preempt. I'm NOT saying communication isn't essential in the workplace. I'm saying that learning to tolerate different communication styles/accents/variations is something to which we should all aspire.

Using body odor as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice too, are you going to make that your next crusade?

[primelord]

I totally disagree, if you can't take the effort to proof-read your resume and make it the best it can be than you shouldn't get any job you apply for with that resume. I don't care if it's working at Burger King, writing code, or driving truck for a living. It goes to taking pride in what you do, attention to detail, and the willingness to do their best. If they can't be bothered to proofread their resume, why would I expect them to do their best in that job?
And again I am not talking about spelling mistakes. I am talking about not understanding all of the grammatical rules. You see a mistake and assume that the person was lazy and didn't proof read his resume. However it is possible he didn't understand that he needed a cooma here or there or that he needs an ' in it's. Again I agree that is a huge problem if the person is going to be expected to write as part of his job. It's not nealry as big of a deal if he is being hired as a coder. Not it is certainly possible that the person is just lazy and didn't proof read, but you can't know for certain until you actually talk to that person.

[cthomer5000]

Not it is certainly possible that the person is just lazy and didn't proof read, but you can't know for certain until you actually talk to that person.
While true, I think it's practically impossible. It would mean interviewing every applicant for every job.

[Noop]

I maintain that it's not as prevelent as noop makes it seem but as you are relating to noops personal experience, I base my beliefs off of my personal experiences.
sigh...

[Chubby]

And again I am not talking about spelling mistakes. I am talking about not understanding all of the grammatical rules. You see a mistake and assume that the person was lazy and didn't proof read his resume. However it is possible he didn't understand that he needed a cooma here or there or that he needs an ' in it's. Again I agree that is a huge problem if the person is going to be expected to write as part of his job. It's not nealry as big of a deal if he is being hired as a coder. Not it is certainly possible that the person is just lazy and didn't proof read, but you can't know for certain until you actually talk to that person.
So when writing code it's ok if he doesn't proof check his work? Nah, he doesn't need that [ in there ;)

I'm sorry, if a person can't bother to do something that takes 5 seconds (hit spellcheck) or have someone look over their resume and it contains errors, then it's NOT getting looked at.

[John Galt]

Using body odor as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice too, are you going to make that your next crusade?

Seriously, do you ever read what other people say before you post?

As I've said, language is DIFFERENT than body odor (or most other examples) because it is much harder to adapt. Wearing deodorant is not the same thing as learning a second language with a conventional accent and with perfect spoken grammar.

[Chubby]

Seriously, do you ever read what other people say before you post?

As I've said, language is DIFFERENT than body odor (or most other examples) because it is much harder to adapt. Wearing deodorant is not the same thing as learning a second language with a conventional accent and with perfect spoken grammar.


No it's not. I don't really believe that anyone here is talking about changing people's accents. They are talking about the proper useage of language. No "like, uh, ya know, dude, awesome, rad, yo" is what they are talking about. Also, you have to speak english. As was pointed out by someone else, go over to say France and try getting a job by speaking only english and see how far you get.

[Havok]

My feelings/thoughts on this thread


1 - Bill Cosby Rocks, Black people need more leaders like him and less leaders like Jesse Jackson.

2 - Hopfully everyone in america will take note of what Bill said, not just black folks.

3 - Noop - You watch to much MTV and your confused. But don't worry, you'll grow out of it. But if you don't grow out of it, i'll see ya at the Mickey-D's drive thru window :) "Ya wan some fries wit dat dogg????

[John Galt]

No it's not. I don't really believe that anyone here is talking about changing people's accents. They are talking about the proper useage of language. No "like, uh, ya know, dude, awesome, rad, yo" is what they are talking about. Also, you have to speak english. As was pointed out by someone else, go over to say France and try getting a job by speaking only english and see how far you get.

Seriously. Stop. Stop now. Try reading the thread again. All of this has been addressed and you ignore it. You do this in a lot of political threads. Stop. Please.

[HornedFrog Purple]

What am I not wanting to hear?

You're right, I don't have a lot of expereince with racism and I do try to keep it that way. Have I seen it? Yeah, a little but not a lot and I've tried to correct it whenever I see it (as I have in this thread).

I guess this is a north/south thing I don't know. I've lived in upstate NY my whole life and like I've said, I've seen racism but not to the extent that I think it happens in south (which I'm defining as below the mason-dixon line). I maintain that it's not as prevelent as noop makes it seem but as you are relating to noops personal experience, I base my beliefs off of my personal experiences.

Believe me man, I spend more time talking to black people trying to motivate them out of the rut they are in then you would believe. A lot of it is fear and quite frankly we have put ourselves in that position through fear. It exists. Is it changing? Yes.

I seriously yell at my own race more than about anyone I know.

[RendeR]

Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.


Wow, I hate to say this, but this sounds like a ton of whining self indulgent sympathy farming to me.

If you went through the work and effort to get the diploma, and more to get the degree, is it that much more effort on your part to learn to communbicate in a way that will all but guarentee you get a job? If you're unwillingness or inability to speak properly or at the very least coherently is what is keeping you from getting hired the fault does not lie with anyone but yourself for not making the effort to learn the good communications skills.

I admit I have a problem with people who can't or won't for whatever reason, learn to speak the language. Its not that I dislike their race creed color or anything else, its that If I can't UNDERSTAND you, how can you expect me to respect you? I don't expect someone in russia to give me a second look if I tried to go there and find work without first learning the proper language. I can speak any way I want when around those who understand me, but in mixed company its ignorant and rude to speak gibberish and then have the gall to wonder why everyone looks at me funny or won't offer me a job.

Businesses have every right to offer a lesser qualified person a job if they have better speaking skills, communication is the heartbeat of almost every company.

Why shouldn't the general populace exapect people to use the language properly? What possible reason could there be for forcing EVERYONE to learn 15 dialects when in fact those speaking the dialects are the ones using the speech incorrectly?

The whole conversation seems rediculous, if you can't communicate well you're not going to get very far, thats not racism, thats natural selection, if you're not willing to raise your level to the necessary point, you don't deserve the position/job/etc.

[CraigSca]

As in many political threads, people seem to fear being called "prejudiced" or even worse, "racist" (even though no one ever actually is called "racist"). Making assumptions based on language variaitons is the very definition of prejudice (from dictionary.com)

1 a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

My point is that using language differences as a proxy for qualification/intelligence/skills is prejudice. I know most people hate the idea that they could in fact be prejudiced, but IMO everyone of us is. That is how people work. The task for us, IMO, is to recognize our prejudices and try to minimize their effect on other people.

And just to preempt. I'm NOT saying communication isn't essential in the workplace. I'm saying that learning to tolerate different communication styles/accents/variations is something to which we should all aspire.

Understood. However, I also think the business world will be the LAST place you're going to find a lack of prejudice. Sure, there can be aspirations to do so, but when the bottom line is the company's money, YOUR job (as hiring manager), etc., you're going to find that one of the all-important factors is the minimization of risk. Hiring someone who speaks differently than the majority of your customers/employees is always going to be a risk.

[John Galt]

Understood. However, I also think the business world will be the LAST place you're going to find a lack of prejudice. Sure, there can be aspirations to do so, but when the bottom line is the company's money, YOUR job (as hiring manager), etc., you're going to find that one of the all-important factors is the minimization of risk. Hiring someone who speaks differently than the majority of your customers/employees is always going to be a risk.

I've never denied this is real world. I'm just hoping to change it (at least in my neck of the woods).

[HornedFrog Purple]

Wait, this sounds like my life!!!


And just from my perspective. HFP is the least racist guy I know. He's one of the good guys, so I don't really enjoy seeing him attacked like this.

Don't worry about it, sometimes my bluntness gets me in trouble. I just hope noop got something out of this among the craters.

[Noop]

Wow, I hate to say this, but this sounds like a ton of whining self indulgent sympathy farming to me.I should put in big bold letters an example. Maybe then you will get it.

thats natural selection.
Talk about fully loaded.

[Chubby]

Seriously. Stop. Stop now. Try reading the thread again. All of this has been addressed and you ignore it. You do this in a lot of political threads. Stop. Please.
is this where you yell STRAW MAN?

I forgot no one is allowed to disagree with you John :rolleyes:



HFP - Like I told Dutch, I merely thought that comment was racsit since I took in that I thought you meant that all employers were racist, you clarified so I know what you mean now. Again, I don't doubt that you do that and I applaud you for it. Like I said, I just haven't seen it in my expeierences and I do think that it has to do with the part of the country I live in.

[RendeR]

Seriously. Stop. Stop now. Try reading the thread again. All of this has been addressed and you ignore it. You do this in a lot of political threads. Stop. Please.


actually John, you should re-read it, this really isn't about anything more than a willingness to learn the language of the society you live in. Its about being responsible for yourself to the point that you can communicate in the common language around you.

The whole idea of it being race related and most of the other crap flowing through this thread is really not the point, its been brought up by some, IMO that have a chip on their shoulder about this topic and its easier to yell RACE and PREJUDICE and expect people to lower their standards for fear of litigation than it is to simply make the effort to speak and communicate clearly and understandably when outside your personal circle of friends and family.

[RendeR]

I should put in big bold letters an example. Maybe then you will get it.


Talk about fully loaded.


its nice to see prime examples of taking exactly what you want to from a statement and not including the entire sentence. This is probably why you seem to bitch constantly about these things instead of making the effort to go beyond them.

Sorry I botherd.

[The Afoci]

is this where you yell STRAW MAN?

I forgot no one is allowed to disagree with you John :rolleyes:


You know, if everyone was telling me that I couldn't read, I might start to listen eventually.

[primelord]

So when writing code it's ok if he doesn't proof check his work? Nah, he doesn't need that [ in there ;)

I'm sorry, if a person can't bother to do something that takes 5 seconds (hit spellcheck) or have someone look over their resume and it contains errors, then it's NOT getting looked at.
Are you even reading what I am writing? I am not saying it is ok not to proof check your work and I have said multiple times now that I am not talking about spelling mistakes. I said specifically that not using the spell checker is unacceptable.

I am saying that for other grammatical problems it may not be a lack of attention to detail, but rather a poor understanding of the english language. And that no every job requires that you write very well. And it is unfortunate to eliminate qualified candidates based on that.

[John Galt]

is this where you yell STRAW MAN?

I forgot no one is allowed to disagree with you John :rolleyes:



HFP - Like I told Dutch, I merely thought that comment was racsit since I took in that I thought you meant that all employers were racist, you clarified so I know what you mean now. Again, I don't doubt that you do that and I applaud you for it. Like I said, I just haven't seen it in my expeierences and I do think that it has to do with the part of the country I live in.

Chubby - the fact that you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. When you call people "fags" (as you have repeatedly defended on this board), you say you don't see homophobia. When you call Noop/HFP racists because they think white America often screws over black America, you don't see your own racism. When you say that people who have trouble speaking English are situated the same as people with body odor, you don't see prejudice. Maybe you don't see it because you don't want to - not because it isn't there.

And Chubby - almost eveyone on this board disagrees with me (I'm used to that) - you are one of a very small number that seems incapable of having a discussion.

[John Galt]

actually John, you should re-read it, this really isn't about anything more than a willingness to learn the language of the society you live in. Its about being responsible for yourself to the point that you can communicate in the common language around you.

The whole idea of it being race related and most of the other crap flowing through this thread is really not the point, its been brought up by some, IMO that have a chip on their shoulder about this topic and its easier to yell RACE and PREJUDICE and expect people to lower their standards for fear of litigation than it is to simply make the effort to speak and communicate clearly and understandably when outside your personal circle of friends and family.

And yet not everyone can learn the language so that they have the same accent/grammar/pronounciation. I guess they should be blamed and try harder rather than actually encouraging tolerance. When people come to this country (or even grow up) speaking other languages or having different accents, we should welcome them, not tell them that they suck for being different.

[Chubby]

Are you even reading what I am writing? I am not saying it is ok not to proof check your work and I have said multiple times now that I am not talking about spelling mistakes. I said specifically that not using the spell checker is unacceptable.

I am saying that for other grammatical problems it may not be a lack of attention to detail, but rather a poor understanding of the english language. And that no every job requires that you write very well. And it is unfortunate to eliminate qualified candidates based on that.

And you use being a programmer as an example. You don't think that you need a good understanding of the english language to be a programmer???

We're not talking complicated language components, you used its instead of it's as an example. This is basic. Every job does require you to communicate well which is what you are trying to do through a resume. If you can't tell someone that "they are doing..." but tell them "their doing..." then you can't communicate on a high school level.

[primelord]

I agree with you on an "ideals" level. On a practical level, don't you have to start discriminating somewhere though? I can't interview every applicant, and I think doing away with those who didn't take the time to present an error-free resume is a pretty fair way to start.
I can't say I disagree with this. Clearly you have to be able to manage the process and you have to weed out the candidates some how.

So I guess I would have to say that if you are doing it simply because otherwise the list of candidates is unmanagebale then it is still unfortunate, but somethign that probably can't be avoided. In the example that started this conversation though the question was would you be more inclined to listen to a person speaking proper english or in slang. So if we are talking about only two resumes and one deosn't use an ' correctly while the other one does, but everything else looks equal. I think it would be a shame not to talk to both of them.

[Chubby]

And yet not everyone can learn the language so that they have the same accent/grammar/pronounciation. I guess they should be blamed and try harder rather than actually encouraging tolerance. When people come to this country (or even grow up) speaking other languages or having different accents, we should welcome them, not tell them that they suck for being different.
Who can't learn the language? The people that are too lazy to be bothered?

[Noop]

And Chubby - almost eveyone on this board disagrees with me (I'm used to that) - you are one of a very small number that seems incapable of having a discussion.
I would like to say I am one of those you can not hold a discussion with and I am someone no one agrees with also.

[Tekneek]

And I understand that. I also understand why employers many times just cut out the resumes of candidates without degrees. Even though some of those may have actually been a better fit for the job. I still think it is unfortunate when a mistake like that costs a company a great employee.

Whenever the team I am on is looking for a new member, we have to inform the "recruitment specialists" that we do not want them to exclude anybody and to send us ALL resumes directly and let us make up our own minds. They balk. A VP has to sign off on our request. Inevitably, we still find out that the "recruitment specialists" discarded some for arbitrary reasons and have actually hired from that discard pile in the past. We do our best to prevent what you are talking about. It also demonstrates that, when your frontline resume-sorters (really, that is all they seem to be) know nothing about the jobs they are "recruiting" for, they will discard good candidates. Some teams/managers/companies want to get it right, but others just let the game play out and rob themselves of great talent.

[John Galt]

Who can't learn the language? The people that are too lazy to be bothered?

Just try. Try to read. I've given many examples (of which I'm sure you will only reply to one and compare it to body odor): immigrants who are learning a second language, regional accents and dialects that are hard to shed, people who grew up in the US speaking different languages, and people who grew up in the US speaking a variation of English. I guess all the immigrants are "lazy?"

[Chubby]

Chubby - the fact that you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. When you call people "fags" (as you have repeatedly defended on this board), you say you don't see homophobia. When you call Noop/HFP racists because they think white America often screws over black America, you don't see your own racism. When you say that people who have trouble speaking English are situated the same as people with body odor, you don't see prejudice. Maybe you don't see it because you don't want to - not because it isn't there.

And Chubby - almost eveyone on this board disagrees with me (I'm used to that) - you are one of a very small number that seems incapable of having a discussion.

I said what HFP SAID was racist not that HE was racist, again RE READ John. Yet you talk about only wanting to see what I want to see supposedly. And Noop called me racist not the other way around, but again, believe what you want.

"When you call Noop/HFP racists because they think white America often screws over black America, you don't see your own racism."

Where the hell am I racist in that? Since a) I never said they were and b) I have said numerous times that it happens but I haven't seen it to the extent that noop claims. But w/e John, whatever you say is gold right?

[John Galt]

I would like to say I am one of those you can not hold a discussion with and I am someone no one agrees with also.

As has been proven in other threads, I don't agree with you either. This is actually a first.

[Chubby]

Just try. Try to read. I've given many examples (of which I'm sure you will only reply to one and compare it to body odor): immigrants who are learning a second language, regional accents and dialects that are hard to shed, people who grew up in the US speaking different languages, and people who grew up in the US speaking a variation of English. I guess all the immigrants are "lazy?"
how many times do I have to say it? I'm not talking about accents, damn you are slow. FUCKING READ, seriously.

It IS acceptable for all people to be able to speak english in an acceptable manner. No where have I ever said "if they speak with an accent then I'd ignore them". Don't speak slang, don't speak another language then you turn around and say "not everyone can learn english". Yes they can, it might take them a while (for immigrants as an example) but they CAN learn it.

[John Galt]

I said what HFP SAID was racist not that HE was racist, again RE READ John. Yet you talk about only wanting to see what I want to see supposedly. And Noop called me racist not the other way around, but again, believe what you want.

"When you call Noop/HFP racists because they think white America often screws over black America, you don't see your own racism."

Where the hell am I racist in that? Since a) I never said they were and b) I have said numerous times that it happens but I haven't seen it to the extent that noop claims. But w/e John, whatever you say is gold right?

Calling someone's words racist and calling them a racist is a distinction without difference (unless the words are spoken as an accident). People are called racist based on their actions.

As for your racism, I'm not going to bother. You won't read it anyway.

[cartman]

In my humble, pointless, opinion, it seems it all boils down to this:

Everyone have to make their own way in life, the way they best see fit. Nothing is going to be handed to you, and you aren't entitled to have everything you want. If you aren't happy with your situation, you have to stop, take stock of the situation, and see what needs to change. Maybe it's behavior (or behaviour for our UK friends), language, location, approach, mindset, whatever. If you are happy with your situation and the way things are progressing, then keep on keepin' on. It's your own responsibility to make your way, not the responsibility or fault of anyone else.

[RendeR]

And yet not everyone can learn the language so that they have the same accent/grammar/pronounciation. I guess they should be blamed and try harder rather than actually encouraging tolerance. When people come to this country (or even grow up) speaking other languages or having different accents, we should welcome them, not tell them that they suck for being different.


you see, this is the whole point, of course there are those who simply don't have the aptitude or abiility to get to that higher level, but those people are the VAST minority.

This whole discussion isn't about the extremes, its about the mainstream, and right now the mainstream in this country seems to be the chant "We don't want to try harder so you have to accept us and treat us equally with those that do"

and that, I say, is horse shit.

If I have to hire someone for a position, ANY position, and my top three candidates come in for interviews, ALL else being equal, I'm going to hire the candidate I can understand and communicate with the easiest, because THAT is whts best for my company.

Is that racist? prejudiced? bigoted? no, thats common sense. I will tolerate almost anything in my personal activities, but when it comes to a work situation, take your "jive" and "street lingo" and stuff it womewhere dark and quiet, because it won't be acceptable in relating to co workers or customers.

[John Galt]

You know, if everyone was telling me that I couldn't read, I might start to listen eventually.

The wisdom of the Afoci (when not crawfish related) is strong. I'm going to listen to him and VPI97 on this one.

[Franklinnoble]

Ok... who wants Jell-O?

[primelord]

And you use being a programmer as an example. You don't think that you need a good understanding of the english language to be a programmer???
No I don't believe you do need to be able to write well to be a good programmer. And I know several very good programmers who consistently make the mistakes we are talking about here in e-mails to me. They are all college graduates, but for whatever reason consistently use the wrong to or the wrong their. However they are excellent coders.

We're not talking complicated language components, you used its instead of it's as an example. This is basic. Every job does require you to communicate well which is what you are trying to do through a resume. If you can't tell someone that "they are doing..." but tell them "their doing..." then you can't communicate on a high school level.
I agree with you that we are not talking about very complicated rules. At the same time that still doesn't make someone a poor programmer. It makes them a poor writer. I am in no way saying that it wouldn't benefit everyone to both be excellent writers and speak proper english. I am however saying that I have seen people who have had "perfect" resumes get jobs over more qualified people for silly little mistakes and the company was worse off because of it.

[Chubby]

Calling someone's words racist and calling them a racist is a distinction without difference (unless the words are spoken as an accident). People are called racist based on their actions.

As for your racism, I'm not going to bother. You won't read it anyway.
Ok John. If your are defining stupid people as a race then I guess I'm guilty as charged. Otherwise w/e. You won't bother because you have no basis in fact.

It may be a distinction without difference to YOU but not to me. Ooops, everything must be based around what you believe, sorry...

[cartman]

Ok... who wants Jell-O?

Considering the Thread title, it has to be a Jell-O Pudding Pop.

[Chubby]

Ok... who wants Jell-O?
Only if it's a pudding pop!

[WSUCougar]

dola, I also should note I'm only talking in terms of spoken English - written English is a whole separate issue.
This one seemed to slip through unnoticed, and I'm curious why you differentiate between the two. Perhaps a different thread would be in order, but I'm interested in your reasoning.

[Suicane75]

This one seemed to slip through unnoticed, and I'm curious why you differentiate between the two. Perhaps a different thread would be in order, but I'm interested in your reasoning.


Dear god no!

[Easy Mac]

Am I the only one who sees a difference between the following:
accents v. slang(dialect)
immigrant v. natural born citizen
person attending english class all their live v. immigrant/naturalized immigrant.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Heck I can drive down the street and see signs in Spanish all over down here anyways. We do not have an "official" language, but in the business world for the most part English is implied.

Technically 95% of us do not speak proper English. I type it much better than I talk it.

[Chubby]

Am I the only one who sees a difference between the following:
accents v. slang(dialect)
immigrant v. natural born citizen
person attending english class all their live v. immigrant/naturalized immigrant.
I believe you are one of the few as am I. Particulary on the 1st item.

[John Galt]

This one seemed to slip through unnoticed, and I'm curious why you differentiate between the two. Perhaps a different thread would be in order, but I'm interested in your reasoning.

I think precisely for the reasons stated here about resumes. It is much easier to work hard in preparing written work and using "proper English" in a resume than it is to adapt in spoken English. I think people should be expected to be correct in grammar and spelling when they have time to edit and check. Unfortunately, our brains can't do that when it comes to spoken English.

[John Galt]

Am I the only one who sees a difference between the following:
accents v. slang(dialect)
immigrant v. natural born citizen
person attending english class all their live v. immigrant/naturalized immigrant.

Yes. Even though I am the one using them interchangably, I think there are important differences. Still, I think at the core, discrimination on any of them is dangerous (with the exception of use of words in improper settings).

[digamma]

Am I the only one who sees a difference between the following:
accents v. slang(dialect)
immigrant v. natural born citizen
person attending english class all their live v. immigrant/naturalized immigrant.
Accents are distinct from dialects but they typically go hand in hand. Exceptions are generally those who speak the language as a second language--and thus learn the "proper" language, but still speak it with an accent (of their native tongue).

[John Galt]

Ok John. If your are defining stupid people as a race then I guess I'm guilty as charged. Otherwise w/e. You won't bother because you have no basis in fact.

It may be a distinction without difference to YOU but not to me. Ooops, everything must be based around what you believe, sorry...

You mean like when you say you can define "fag" as being not offensive and ignore EVERYONE who is offended by the use of the term?

How was calling Noop/HFP's words "racist" calling them "stupid?" How can anyone be called "racist" if it isn't based on their words and actions?

[Ben E Lou]

Accents are distinct from dialects but they typically go hand in hand. Exceptions are generally those who speak the language as a second language--and thus learn the "proper" language, but still speak it with an accent (of their native tongue).OK. Side note, but I'm curious to the difference y'all see between an "accent" and "dialect" (and perhaps it is just semantics...)

[John Galt]

you see, this is the whole point, of course there are those who simply don't have the aptitude or abiility to get to that higher level, but those people are the VAST minority.


Where is your evidence for this assertion? Are the millions of people in NYC who speak with accents that are hard for many to understand lazy or stupid?

[Glengoyne]

Same level? Sorry in my opinion I will never be on the same level as the so called civilized people of this nation. Because I am and never we be nothing in his/her eyes... if something goes missing they'll look at those who are like me before they look at someone like them. There is no same level instead they have found a new way to put burden on people. Its all in your mind now... they make you go to a 12 step brainwash camp called school in order to earn a piece of paper so you can get a job. This in my opinion is done to appease those who would protest had this not been availible.(sp?) Then to get a good job you must go to college where you must pay for the education but your not wealthly at all. So you get loans, grants to fund this goal/dream of yours then you finally have that degree. Now what? Your in debt and cant find a job because they dont see you as you are... you dont get hired and you need money. Looks like mental slavery to me.
Instead of just outright calling "bullshit" on this, I think we should take up a collection and send you to spend the summer with Sky Dog.:D

[John Galt]

OK. Side note, but I'm curious to the difference y'all see between an "accent" and "dialect" (and perhaps it is just semantics...)

I think it is mostly semantics, but I think a dialect has different words whereas an accent has different pronounciations. I'm not sure where things like "ya'll" fall.

[Easy Mac]

Yes. Even though I am the one using them interchangably, I think there are important differences. Still, I think at the core, discrimination on any of them is dangerous (with the exception of use of words in improper settings).
I'd say there is a huge difference between accent and slang. I think a discerning person would be able to pick that out.

[John Galt]

Heck I can drive down the street and see signs in Spanish all over down here anyways. We do not have an "official" language, but in the business world for the most part English is implied.

Technically 95% of us do not speak proper English. I type it much better than I talk it.

So are you lazy or stupid? ;)

[Chubby]

I'd say there is a huge difference between accent and slang. I think a discerning person would be able to pick that out.

Note who you are talking to when you said that.

[John Galt]

I'd say there is a huge difference between accent and slang. I think a discerning person would be able to pick that out.

It depends on what you call "slang." Is "ya'll" slang - in NYC it is. Is "axe" slang - in Iowa it is. Is saying "like" every other word slang - in some parts of California it may not be. I've never defended the use of four letter words or inappropriate language in certain settings (like work), but I'm not sure all "slang" is unacceptable in those settings.

That being said, I think there is a difference between accent and slang, but I think language discrimination on either can be troublesome (with the caveats I made above).

[Ben E Lou]

I think it is mostly semantics, but I think a dialect has different words whereas an accent has different pronounciations. I'm not sure where things like "ya'll" fall.It's y'all!!!

I'd classify "y'all", "mamanem", "dadgum", etc. as colloquialisms, fwiw.

[John Galt]

It's y'all!!!

I'd classify "y'all", "mamanem", "dadgum", etc. as colloquialisms, fwiw.

My Yankee roots show. :p

[Easy Mac]

I think it is mostly semantics, but I think a dialect has different words whereas an accent has different pronounciations. I'm not sure where things like "ya'll" fall.
Well, I generally use the two interchangeably, though that may not be the correct usage. I usually use "dialect" as a particular manner of speaking, not necessarily as slang. Perhaps we just use different meanings of the word. I can see how dialect would fit in with slang, although I feel slang is completely different from accents.

Although I will agree accents and dialect go hand and hand.

[Easy Mac]

It's y'all!!!

I'd classify "y'all", "mamanem", "dadgum", etc. as colloquialisms, fwiw.
Can we ask the people who do not want to speak correct English which word does not seem to fit in with the rest?

[digamma]

OK. Side note, but I'm curious to the difference y'all see between an "accent" and "dialect" (and perhaps it is just semantics...)
Accents are just that. How we say the words we do. A southerner and a midwesterner will pronounce the word bag or greasy two different ways, but the words still have the same meanings.

Dialects are broader and include localized words and/or meanings of words (as well as the accent). Off the top of my head, a southerner referring to pulled pork as barbecue is one example (that may be a bad example, but I think foods are often cases where we see differences).

It is often hard to separate the two, because accent plays a big part in dialect. The one example I can think of, which I gave previously, is someone who becomes fluent in a second language through formal education. An American who learns to speak French at a school in Paris will likely speak with an American accent, but not an American dialect.

Does this make sense at all?

[cartman]

OK. Side note, but I'm curious to the difference y'all see between an "accent" and "dialect" (and perhaps it is just semantics...)

According to linguists (may or not be cunning, I don't have 1st hand knowledge), a dialect is a regional variation in pronunciation by a mother-tongue speaker, and an accent is pronunciation in a language other than mother-tongue.

[WSUCougar]

I think precisely for the reasons stated here about resumes. It is much easier to work hard in preparing written work and using "proper English" in a resume than it is to adapt in spoken English. I think people should be expected to be correct in grammar and spelling when they have time to edit and check. Unfortunately, our brains can't do that when it comes to spoken English.
Grammar and spelling defined by whom?

[Easy Mac]

Jesus

[Ben E Lou]

Accents are just that. How we say the words we do. A southerner and a midwesterner will pronounce the word bag or greasy two different ways, but the words still have the same meanings.

Dialects are broader and include localized words and/or meanings of words (as well as the accent). Off the top of my head, a southerner referring to pulled pork as barbecue is one example (that may be a bad example, but I think foods are often cases where we see differences).

It is often hard to separate the two, because accent plays a big part in dialect. The one example I can think of, which I gave previously, is someone who becomes fluent in a second language through formal education. An American who learns to speak French at a school in Paris will likely speak with an American accent, but not an American dialect.

Does this make sense at all?Completely.

[John Galt]

Grammar and spelling defined by whom?

There I would say conventional English books on style and form (although I'm not as tight on some rules as someone like QS).