Steve Jackson Games

[Antmeister]

A long time ago (more than 10 years ago), I used to be an avid fan of Steve Jackson. For those who may have never heard of him, he developed some awesome roleplaying and stategy games in the late 80's and early 90's. Ogre, Car Wars, Arena and GURPS (Generic Universal Roleplaying System) were games that I would waste my summers with, spending like 10 to 12 hours in a garage developing stories and scenarios in my fictional worlds.

So it leads me to my question. Why hasn't his games been as popular as say AD&D? The reason why I ask is because I remember that there were a few games released in the past that first had connections with Steve Jackson and they either failed or something fell through. First it was a game called Autoduel which didn't even seem to try to mimic the rules of his game. Then I recall remembering that the Fallout series was actually going to use the ruleset that he used for GURPS. For some reason, something happened that caused them to drop it, yet they used their own interpreted version of his rules. I recently learned that they are making an online version of his games using the GURPS ruleset, but it has been over 2 years in which anything was developed.

In my opinion, I thought his roleplaying system was a lot better than anything out there since it was so open-ended. I was never confined to a particular universe, setting or storyline and the rules were similar whether you were playing a space merchant to a dragon slayer.

Am I the only one that has played this? And does anyone know of any other PC games that are related to any Steve Jackson game?

[SirFozzie]

The new GURPS system is due out this summer :)

[hukarez]

To be truthfully honest, I've never heard of Steve Jackson.

I have, however, heard of GURPS. Not sure as to whether or not there's a PC game out there based on such rules or the like...it seems the newer ones these days, are going d20.

[The_herd]

D&D was already established at the time. I think that was the main reason GURPS didn't really catch on. A few of my friends used it, but always fell back to D20 eventually, probably because its a system all gamers are familiar with and is very well supported. It can be difficult to find gamers sometimes (as I'm finding now) and you tend to stick with what the group is familiar with. Prior to 3rd edition GURPS was a better system IMO, but the simplicity of the new edition of D&D has really pushed it forward.

GURPS would have been a great system for PC RPGs and I'm surprised it never caught on in that way. 2nd edition D20 never really felt right in the Baldur's Gate series, and Torment had to mold it to fit what they were trying to accomplish. I haven't played TOEE yet, but 3rd edition worked pretty well in NWN and the parts of it included in Icewind Dale, so GURPS chance to find a niche with the average gamer has probably passed.

[Marc Vaughan]

Steve Jacksons games were great imho, Car Wars for instance was very simple but extremely fun to play (and had a computer game version around 15 years ago) .....

Main problem he's had is poor promotion & PR, if his games were promoted in a similar fashion to how Games Workshop has promoted their games they'd be much better known.

Second thing with his games is that the games themselves are generally great however the support for them afterwards isn't that wonderful, for example Games Workshop will produce a game and then release various add-ons and scenarios etc. - plus additional information/rules via. their magazines ...

(just my opinion)

[Antmeister]

The new GURPS system is due out this summer :)


Thanks for the news SirFozzie. I should have actually looked at their site before writing this. It hadn't changed in so long, I thought it hadn't changed recently. By the way, here is the link to the online version of their system. Can't wait.

Gurps Online (http://www.gurpsonline.com/)

[Easy Mac]

He was pretty good at Oregon.

[Antmeister]

Steve Jacksons games were great imho, Car Wars for instance was very simple but extremely fun to play (and had a computer game version around 15 years ago) .....

Main problem he's had is poor promotion & PR, if his games were promoted in a similar fashion to how Games Workshop has promoted their games they'd be much better known.

Second thing with his games is that the games themselves are generally great however the support for them afterwards isn't that wonderful, for example Games Workshop will produce a game and then release various add-ons and scenarios etc. - plus additional information/rules via. their magazines ...

(just my opinion)

Yeah, the computer version of Car Wars was called Autoduel. It came out on the Commodore 64.

As far as support, I never had that problem. They had and still have a numerous amount of modules that were created for GURPS and he was happy to let others help to write his modules and/or campaigns for his games. In addition, I could always find info on any corrections or rule changes to his game at the local game store back in the day. But I am strictly talking about GURPS and Car Wars.

But I will have to agree on the PR. More so now than in the past. In the past, I thought he did an okay job advertising in game/hobby magaznines. Today, however, he has still never taken advantage of the web (forums, websites, fan sites, etc.).

[SirFozzie]

I think I still have the IBM PC version of Autoduel on my machine :)

Check out Pyramid, SJ Games's webboard.. playtest files, etc etc. I also like Warehouse 23 :)

[chinaski]

Anyone play Chez Geek? That game is incredibly fun.
http://www.sjgames.com/chezgeek/

[SirFozzie]

Dola: Sorry hit enter too soon. Warehouse 23 is their online RPG store (they carry all companies products, not just their own)

[terpkristin]

I'm not sure why it didn't all catch on except that some of his games "made fun" of RPG'ers or at least spoofed them and some of the more serious D&D'ers I know (i.e. my roommate) thinks it's just stupid (granted, he's not the brightest crayon in the box).

Personally I have Munchkin, Chez Geek (1,2,3), and Chez Greek, and I *LOVE* those games. But I've never known much about AD&D or any of the other "standard" RPG's to really get into his others...

~tk

[Antmeister]

I'm not sure why it didn't all catch on except that some of his games "made fun" of RPG'ers or at least spoofed them and some of the more serious D&D'ers I know (i.e. my roommate) thinks it's just stupid (granted, he's not the brightest crayon in the box).

Personally I have Munchkin, Chez Geek (1,2,3), and Chez Greek, and I *LOVE* those games. But I've never known much about AD&D or any of the other "standard" RPG's to really get into his others...

~tk


The games look hilarious. I have to try one of them out. Which would you suggest to try out first?

[Easy Mac]

If we just put Jenna Jameson in a spaceship we could make it at least a 3x game.

[The_herd]

Munchkin is great, I haven't tried the others.

[chinaski]

The games look hilarious. I have to try one of them out. Which would you suggest to try out first?
The whole Chez Geek line is great. Really fun and cheap too.

[terpkristin]

The games look hilarious. I have to try one of them out. Which would you suggest to try out first?
Munchkin is great, but can be a little confusing the first time through. There is a PDF on the Steve Jackson games site that has a "step by step" flow chart of how it goes. It's also much better with 3+ people, so if you only have 2, try one of the Chez...series.

In all, Munchkin is probably the better game, but they're all really good.

~tk

[GrantDawg]

Wasn't he in some legal trouble at one point? I seem to remember something about him cancelling a trip to the hobby shop I lived/worked at in the late 80's- early 90's because of legal trouble.

I was never a big fan of the GURPS system, but I loved Car Wars and Autoduel.

[SirFozzie]

SJ Games was not even on the periphery of an investigation into hacking, but because one of their authors had posted to a hacking board, the Secret Service raided SJ games, took all their computers and pretty much held their stuff for a couple years, despite SJ games having NOTHING to do with it.

The Story of the raid on SJG (http://www.sjgames.com/SS/)

[Glengoyne]

Car wars and Ogre were fantastic.

I may have to look into the Geek games.

[Antmeister]

SJ Games was not even on the periphery of an investigation into hacking, but because one of their authors had posted to a hacking board, the Secret Service raided SJ games, took all their computers and pretty much held their stuff for a couple years, despite SJ games having NOTHING to do with it.

The Story of the raid on SJG (http://www.sjgames.com/SS/)


I still have GURPS Cyberpunk after all these years. Very strange indeed.

[GrantDawg]

SJ Games was not even on the periphery of an investigation into hacking, but because one of their authors had posted to a hacking board, the Secret Service raided SJ games, took all their computers and pretty much held their stuff for a couple years, despite SJ games having NOTHING to do with it.

The Story of the raid on SJG (http://www.sjgames.com/SS/)There it is. I thought I remembered it was the Secret Service, but wasn't sure about that. None of that surprises me. It seems many who carry badges fear things they don't understand. The same hobby shop I talked about earlier had one of the members of its gaming club arrested for "attempted kidnapping" in part because he was known to hang out with "Satanist" (ie. played D&D at the shop). I respect police, but I there are many in the profession that are narrow-minded morons that abuse their authority, would rather harrass people that are "different" than solve actual crime, and give the whole proffesion a bad name.

[hoosierdude]

Been playing and GM'ing GURPS campaigns over many "worlds", for about 20 years now. Would recommend it for any RPG'er. I find diehard D&D fans have a hard time with the freedom to create your characters how you see fit, but I have found many folks love to play it when they get a chance to do it.

Have to say I am very interested in version 4, and what surprises they will have. But you guys are right. PR wise, SJG never did get it right, if they had, I believe AD&D wouldnt have survived as long as they did when Wizards of the Coast snapped them up and changed them.

[druez]

www.rpgshop.com is a good place for online purchasing.

[sachmo71]

Car Wars is greatness. GURPS is a game I have long tried to get my fellow gamers to play, but they are AD&D spoiled. It was hard enough trying to get them to consider even trying Champions, but they said they would give it a go. Now, if I can just learn the rules... :)

I would love to see Car Wars turned into a clix-type game. That would be yet another drain on my pocket book.

[dawgfan]

He was pretty good at Oregon.

I think you mean Oregon State if i understand your joke...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Autoduel is one of my all-time favorite computer games. Had it for my Apple IIE. Classic game. I also played the Car Wars RPG. Good fun. Played GURPS a few times. It's a great system. Infinitely easier than the original AD&D rules and can be easily adapted for every genre. That said, I only played it a few times. Never really got into it.

About 8 or so years ago, my friend had a website that had a bunch of "classic" computer games on it for download and such. Way back when. He had "Ogre" up there and Steve Jackson sent him a nasty email threatening legal action unless he removed Ogre immediately. Oh well...

[Antmeister]

Autoduel is one of my all-time favorite computer games. Had it for my Apple IIE. Classic game. I also played the Car Wars RPG. Good fun. Played GURPS a few times. It's a great system. Infinitely easier than the original AD&D rules and can be easily adapted for every genre. That said, I only played it a few times. Never really got into it.

About 8 or so years ago, my friend had a website that had a bunch of "classic" computer games on it for download and such. Way back when. He had "Ogre" up there and Steve Jackson sent him a nasty email threatening legal action unless he removed Ogre immediately. Oh well...


The thing with GURPS is that it's a great system if you wanted to create your very own universe and I while Autoduel was nice, I wasn't too crazy about it as I was playing the paper and pencil version. The computer version seemed to be lacking some of the rules.

[GrantDawg]

..It was hard enough trying to get them to consider even trying Champions, but they said they would give it a go...


Champions was (or is it were?) great. Do they have a new rule set for that? I loved playing that (except you needed about 10,000 six-sides if I remember correctly. I could be confusing it with another Super-hero game we played). My all time favorite was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. We had more fun playing it and Twilight 2000 than any other games (except D&D).

[WSUCougar]

I think you mean Oregon State if i understand your joke...
He's in ACC country, cut him some slack. ;)

[sachmo71]

Champions was (or is it were?) great. Do they have a new rule set for that? I loved playing that (except you needed about 10,000 six-sides if I remember correctly. I could be confusing it with another Super-hero game we played). My all time favorite was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. We had more fun playing it and Twilight 2000 than any other games (except D&D).

The latest Hero System is 4.0. Lots of revamping of the original rules, supposedly made simpler.

[SirFozzie]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

No Super Hero game better then Marvel Super Heros (the old version :))

[GrantDawg]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

No Super Hero game better then Marvel Super Heros (the old version :))
The little cards? Yeah, I liked it (and my friend still has it).

[The_herd]

Champions was (or is it were?) great. Do they have a new rule set for that? I loved playing that (except you needed about 10,000 six-sides if I remember correctly. I could be confusing it with another Super-hero game we played). My all time favorite was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. We had more fun playing it and Twilight 2000 than any other games (except D&D).

Champions was a lot of fun (yep, that was the one where everyone had to get out ALL of their six-siders), but quite confussing at times. We always used it as a break from D&D or whatever else we were focused on at the time. We also started getting into the D20 version of Call of Cathulu before I left. I still think the most fun we had, overall, was low-level D&D. Nothing beats it.

[SirFozzie]

The little cards? Yeah, I liked it (and my friend still has it).

No, the version before that.

Quick to create a character, set up power levels and play.

Of course, it's 10 years or so old now.

We need to get an RPG group going sometime ;)

[Antmeister]

The little cards? Yeah, I liked it (and my friend still has it).

I played that game before. In fact they had a few modules that were very cool. There was this series based on the extinction of mutants and mutates alike. The only one I remember was a module called "Nightmare of Future's Past". The story occurs in the future in which the world has become convinced by political factions to rid the world of mutants with these super-powered robots called "Sentinels". A number of superheroes eat it, including Captain America, Spiderman, and a number of others. These Sentinels enslave the mutants in camps (Hmmmm...sounds very much like the future of the X-Men movies). The series was awesome and there was another module in which you could reclaim Iron Man's armor to help to liberate the mutants.

The only problem I had with the Marvel set was when they introduced the Ultimate Super Powers book. You basically rolled to dice to see what type of powers you would get and the power contradicted each other. Like say "water breathing" and "Fire Sword" or something like that.

Ahhh.....I am having a flashback again. Must be getting old.

[sachmo71]

I played that game before. In fact they had a few modules that were very cool. There was this series based on the extinction of mutants and mutates alike. The only one I remember was a module called "Nightmare of Future's Past". The story occurs in the future in which the world has become convinced by political factions to rid the world of mutants with these super-powered robots called "Sentinels". A number of superheroes eat it, including Captain America, Spiderman, and a number of others. These Sentinels enslave the mutants in camps (Hmmmm...sounds very much like the future of the X-Men movies). The series was awesome and there was another module in which you could reclaim Iron Man's armor to help to liberate the mutants.

The only problem I had with the Marvel set was when they introduced the Ultimate Super Powers book. You basically rolled to dice to see what type of powers you would get and the power contradicted each other. Like say "water breathing" and "Fire Sword" or something like that.

Ahhh.....I am having a flashback again. Must be getting old.


Nightmare of the Futurepast is one of the main storylines of the Marvel Universe, and made the X-Men what they are today...for better or worse. It's a fun story line, but it's the type of thing that starts getting insane after a while. You get to a point were anyone who dies can always be a version of them from the future who died instead, and so the hero is in fact still alive, and able to change their future to avoid the death.

[Antmeister]

Nightmare of the Futurepast is one of the main storylines of the Marvel Universe, and made the X-Men what they are today...for better or worse. It's a fun story line, but it's the type of thing that starts getting insane after a while. You get to a point were anyone who dies can always be a version of them from the future who died instead, and so the hero is in fact still alive, and able to change their future to avoid the death.

I sort of figured that, but I must say that I can't remember too much since I had played this game over 10 years ago. It will be really cool to see the Sentinels appear in the next X-Men movie.

[sachmo71]

The way the X-Men storyline is going, the Sentinels are a shoe-in.