Where would you rank Kurt Warner in NFL History ?

[Darkiller]

I'm wondering because I just read an article from the St Louis media and the editor quoted Mark Bartelstein (Warner's agent) saying -when discussing his client's future :

"hey, you're talking about one of the best QBs in NFL History..."

I don't know what to think of that statement (of course, the agent is playing the agent's game with it but nonetheless, there might be a debate about it...).

I agree that Kurt Warner's 3-year run from 1999-2001 is worthy of all acclaims but since then he's been everything but good.

So does that 3-year run makes him "one of the best ever", just like that ? or do you have to be great over a much longer timeframe to be eligible for such a lofty assessment ?

Personnaly, as much as I admire Warner's success from '99 to '01, I'm not ready to call him "one of the best QBs ever"....

[rkmsuf]

Agent speak.

The agent for Kordell Stewart is still talking about the 11 rushing touchdowns.

Warner is middle of the road

[albionmoonlight]

It's an interesting question that raises a lot of other interesting questions. Who is a "greater" football player: Bo Jackson or Tim Brown?

At what point does longevity matter? At what point do short spurts of greatness matter?

What about Andre Rison? When he was at his peak, he was the best in the game. Then he had a long run of so-so years. Where do you rank him? What about Terell Davis?

Would people think better of Kurt Warner had his injuries made him retire after his great run? It seems clear that people's view of those years has been colored by his awful performances since. Should sticking around and playing poorly when injuries should have caused you to retire tarnish your legacy?

What about Jim Brown? Had he hung on until the wheels fell off, he may not be as revered as he is today. As it is, he projects the image of a man who could have run for 30,000 yards had he chosen to. I think that early retirement helped Brown's legacy.

[Franklinnoble]

Mark Rypien had a pretty good year in 1991.

[Samdari]

It seems clear that people's view of those years has been colored by his awful performances since.

What about those of us who thought he was average then?

[bamcgee]

Gale Sayers is frequently pointed to as being one of the NFL's best, despite a career that was greatly shortened by injuries. Sayers was so spectacular that longevity lost importance. Is Warner in the same category? Not quite, in my mind. For a three year period, he was an uncannily accurate quarterback at the head of one of the most gifted and well-executed offenses the NFL has ever seen. He had tons of talent to support him, unlike say, Brett Favre (whose teams have varied widely although win-loss records have not). I think Warner fits into the Rich Gannon category - 1or 2 time MVP with a few good years and several mediocre ones.

[Huckleberry]

Should sticking around and playing poorly when injuries should have caused you to retire tarnish your legacy?

No, but blaming injuries for your average at best play should tarnish it. Warner is what he is.

[Cringer]

Well, I am gonna throw Warner into the same catagory as Jeff Garcia, and right now, unless things change, that puts both of them in with one of my all time favorites, Don Majkowski. (Ok, they are just a notch up from the Majik Man I guess, but i just mean as guys who are pretty good for a few years then fade)

[sovereignstar]

Scott Mitchell!!! w00t

[wishbone]

I think Warner will be remembered in St.Louis and forgotten everywhere else, he won't be high on any career lists unless he has another 3 years like 99-01. And 2000 is a wash because he missed 5 games anyway. 10-20 years from now a few people will argue this and say he had a couple good years but so did a lot of guys.

[Cringer]

I will remember Warner for is nasty, butch, grandma of a wife then for anything else.

[primelord]

What about Andre Rison? When he was at his peak, he was the best in the game.
I would just like to point out that at no point in time was Andre Rison EVER the best in the game. Thank you. :)

[primelord]

As I think many people on the board know by now, I am as big of a Warner fan as anyone. However I agree with what seems to be the concensus here. You can't be considered one of the greatest ever after only 3 good years. Injuries or not.

Gale Sayers I think is the excpetion. As someone else pointed out he was so unbelieveable when he was healthy that I think you have to let him in. Warner was fantastic for 3 years, but that alone isn't enough to get him into the hall of fame.

On a bit of a tangent. What do people think of Earl Campbell? He had at best 5 great years and maybe more accurately he had 3 great years and 2 very good years. It seems to me if Earl Campbell is a hall of famer then Terrell Davis should probably be one as well.

[Rizon]

Thread hijack: My name is not pronounced like the above WR/ GF-having-house burner-downer.

[albionmoonlight]

Upon further reflection, I do amend--Jerry Rice was the best in the game during Rison's peak. People forget, however, how good Rison was in the early 90s.

[SteelerFan448]

I think Warner will be remembered in St.Louis and forgotten everywhere else, he won't be high on any career lists unless he has another 3 years like 99-01. And 2000 is a wash because he missed 5 games anyway. 10-20 years from now a few people will argue this and say he had a couple good years but so did a lot of guys.

That's exactly it. The only time you will hear his name in the future is when watching the NFL Films highlights on ESPN. No one will even waste a breath talking about him being one of the greats.

[ISiddiqui]

Well unless he has a pretty good career for whatever team he ends up on next :D.

[primelord]

Upon further reflection, I do amend--Jerry Rice was the best in the game during Rison's peak. People forget, however, how good Rison was in the early 90s.
I agree he was one of the better WRs in the game for about 4 years, but even at his peak I would have taken Rice, Sharpe, and Irvin over him in those same years.

[G-Man]

It's an interesting question that raises a lot of other interesting questions. Who is a "greater" football player: Bo Jackson or Tim Brown?

At what point does longevity matter? At what point do short spurts of greatness matter?

What about Andre Rison? When he was at his peak, he was the best in the game. Then he had a long run of so-so years. Where do you rank him? What about Terell Davis?

Would people think better of Kurt Warner had his injuries made him retire after his great run? It seems clear that people's view of those years has been colored by his awful performances since. Should sticking around and playing poorly when injuries should have caused you to retire tarnish your legacy?

What about Jim Brown? Had he hung on until the wheels fell off, he may not be as revered as he is today. As it is, he projects the image of a man who could have run for 30,000 yards had he chosen to. I think that early retirement helped Brown's legacy.

Did you ever see Jim Brown play? Had he played until he was 40, he would be the leading all time rusher! His reputation would be even greater than it is as a football player (we won't get into his other views). Most likely he would have ended up with close to, if not over 23,000 yards! :eek:

[albionmoonlight]

Nope--never watched Jim Brown. I'm not saying that he was or wasn't the greatest (though Sweetness will always be my favorite). I am saying that we have no way of knowing how much longer he would have been great had he continued to play. Maybe he would have hit 25,000; maybe not. The wheels come off for everyone--especially running backs. By retiring when he did, I think he managed to secure his legend better than he would have had he continued to play.

[MIJB#19]

Two Time League MVP.
How many QBs have managed that?

[QuikSand]

I have mixed feelings about Warner - I think he deserves more than being dumped into the pile along with the Don Majkowskis of the world. One of the best ever? Probably not. An outstanding quarterback for a fleeting time? Yes.


On the general issue of outstanding longetivity versus established brilliance, I definitely have a higher view of the latter than most seem to. (This always comes up in HOF discussions) Tim Brown is my poster boy, personally - as he is closing in on a fairly high spot on many career lists for receivers, and is getting talk as a HOF candidate.

I would absolutely, positively, instantaneously support Sterling Sharpe as a HOF candidate long before Tim Brown. There was no point at all during Brown's career that he approached the excellence that Sterling Sharpe managed for his unfortunately too-short career. Sharpe was brilliant, and was so for long enough to prove it was no fluke. I don't need to see six more seasons of gradual decline to know he was one of the best ever. Where does Andre Rison fit here? Troubel is that much of his best success (and numbers) came while playing for a pass-happy team in Atlanta, and he never reached those heights anywhere else. But with the general concept -- I'm firmly in favor of recognizing guys who have established their level of excellence, much more than the guys who were able to grind out pretty successful numbers for twice as long.

[Samdari]

Two Time League MVP.
How many QBs have managed that?

Please bring arguments to the table which have something to do with how he played, not how a clueless media viewed him.

[Bee]

53rd

[Samdari]

53rd

LOL, I am surprised nobody said 2/3.

Who are your first 52? 54th?

[Senator]

Ahead of Doug Williams and Vince Feragammo but behind Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly.

[albionmoonlight]

We have had this discussion on this board several times before. Here is my 2c from another post. FWIW, I do not beleive that Warner deserves to be called one of the all time greats.
_____________________________________________


Watching the Saints play the Rams when Warner was still physically at his peak, I can contribute some observation to the discussion.

Trent Green--while a very good quarterback--was no Kurt Warner. When Warner went out with injury and Green had to come in, Green was just a hair slower than Warner, and a hair less accurate, and that's all that mattered. It threw the whole "swiss watch" aspect of the offense out of kilter.

Warner had the best quick decision / split second timing of any QB that I have personally watched play, save Dan Marino. Vermeil was a level headed coach that demanded respect and knew how to get a team ready to win. Martz was a chalkboard genius who could draw up an offense that played exactly to Warner's strengths.

The three of them together complimented each other perfectly (and, of course, having a healthy Faulk was a boon, too). I don't think that it is a big suprise that that none of them has had the same success since they left each other.

For two years, I think that Warner really was that damn good. He's not anymore, and he may never be again--and he would not have been with Marty Shottenheimer as his coach--but at that time, in a system that allowed him to maximize his strengths, he was simply amazing.

[Franklinnoble]

Ahead of Doug Williams and Vince Feragammo but behind Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly.
Not cool to dis Doug Williams like that.... http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Senator]

Fine. Replace Williams with Theisman.

[Franklinnoble]

Fine. Replace Williams with Theisman.
Ouch.

Quit hatin'

[iceberg414]

Warner is average at best. Is Gannon a HOF? I don't think so. I think TD should get into the HOF, but I think it will take a few years for him to get in. A player that I think will get overlooked is Leroy Butler 38 interceptions and 20.5 sacks is HOF material to me. Warner, no HOF, but great trivia question in 20 years...Who was Kurt Warner? He came from obscurity and has been fading right back into it. By the way I hate Kurt Warner and his life partner, that is a man isn't it?

[Surtt]

On a bit of a tangent. What do people think of Earl Campbell? He had at best 5 great years and maybe more accurately he had 3 great years and 2 very good years. It seems to me if Earl Campbell is a hall of famer then Terrell Davis should probably be one as well.

Simply looking at the stats does not do Earl justice.
He wasn't a borderline candidate for the Hall, he was elected in his first year eligible.

At the time of his retirement he was in the top 10 all time in rushing and had the second highest yardage season ever.
He also was the second player (the other being Paul Brown) ever to win Rookie of the Year and MVP the same year.

I remember watching him back when I was in high school.
When he cleared the line of scrimmage he would look for linebackers to run over.

"All you can do is close your eyes and hope he doesn't break your helmet," Dallas safety Cliff Harris once said.
One of only four men ever granted official legend status by the state of Texas

[Franklinnoble]

Warner is average at best. Is Gannon a HOF? I don't think so. I think TD should get into the HOF, but I think it will take a few years for him to get in. A player that I think will get overlooked is Leroy Butler 38 interceptions and 20.5 sacks is HOF material to me. Warner, no HOF, but great trivia question in 20 years...Who was Kurt Warner? He came from obscurity and has been fading right back into it. By the way I hate Kurt Warner and his life partner, that is a man isn't it? http://www.firstthingsfirstfoundation.com/pics/Morewarnercollage.jpg

You know, I had no idea what she looked like until now... my god, she looks old enough to be his mother... *shudder*

[Easy Mac]

Two Time League MVP.
How many QBs have managed that?
10

[Surtt]

[img]You know, I had no idea what she looked like until now... my god, she looks old enough to be his mother... *shudder*


She kind of acts like his mother... double *shudder*

[Philliesfan980]

http://www.firstthingsfirstfoundation.com/pics/Morewarnercollage.jpg

You know, I had no idea what she looked like until now... my god, she looks old enough to be his mother... *shudder*

Someone's gotta know her age.

[Franklinnoble]

10
Where'd you find this info?

[Surtt]

Someone's gotta know her age.

She is 4 years older then Kurt. So, arond 37.

[SFL Cat]

Nope--never watched Jim Brown. I'm not saying that he was or wasn't the greatest (though Sweetness will always be my favorite). I am saying that we have no way of knowing how much longer he would have been great had he continued to play. Maybe he would have hit 25,000; maybe not. The wheels come off for everyone--especially running backs. By retiring when he did, I think he managed to secure his legend better than he would have had he continued to play.

Jimmy Brown was without doubt the best running back of all time. He retired at the top of his game and in his prime. I have no doubt that, barring injury, Brown would have led the league in rushing for at least another five or six seasons if he had not retired. Had Brown stayed in the game, Emmitt Smith would still probably be about 5,000-6,000 behind him (and no one is a bigger Emmitt Smith fan than me).

No one can argue that there are some HOF QBs who don't belong there. I doubt too many would argue that "Broadway -- I love you -- kiss me" Joe Namath is only in the HOF because of his SB III "guarantee." Also, I don't believe Terry Bradshaw's input to the success of the Pittsburgh Steelers merits him a spot either. His career stats ain't great, and if you look at his career from 1970 to 1974 (Pittsburgh's first SB championship), you certainly wouldn't say he was a HOF calibre QB.

That said, I think what happens to Kurt Warner depends on what he does with his next team. If he has three or four more good seasons close to what he did from 99-01, or gets his team into another SB, then I think he's a legit HOF candidate. If he continues to play poorly as a starter, or becomes a backup the rest of his career, then I agree with what others have posted...his legacy becomes that of a journeyman who had a few good seasons.

[Pumpy Tudors]

You know, I had no idea what she looked like until now... my god, she looks old enough to be his mother... *shudder*

Where the hell were you when the Rams won the Super Bowl? I know I couldn't go anywhere without seeing her face. I saw her more than I saw Bush or Gore back then. I'm still pouring bleach into my eyes to get the image of Brenda Warner out. Urgh.

[Franklinnoble]

Where the hell were you when the Rams won the Super Bowl? I know I couldn't go anywhere without seeing her face. I saw her more than I saw Bush or Gore back then. I'm still pouring bleach into my eyes to get the image of Brenda Warner out. Urgh.
I dunno... the last time I watched a Rams game, Jim Everett was the QB.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

When I "hear" the name Curt Warner, all I can think is that he was the best Seahawk running back ever. . . Oh, hang on . . . not that Warner. Who's this other guy you're talking back. If you are not even the best player with your name, not much can be said. If what you're going on is one or two great years, Bernie Nicholls should warrant praise as one of the best NHLers ever. CONSISTENCY is the key, not longevity, and "Kurt" doesn't have it. I think the fact he is getting released in the prime years for QBs speaks volumes.

[Sharpieman]

10
And who were those 10 players? It would be interesting to know this for the argument.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Not sure how "official" these are, but how about:

(in random order)

1. Brett Favre
2. Joe Montana
3. Steve Young
4. Otto Graham
5. Randall Cunningham
6. Joe Theismann
7. Jerry Rice
8. Barry Sanders
9. Walter Payton
10. Marshall Faulk

Source: http://football.about.com/library/weekly/bl_awardsmvp.htm

[Sharpieman]

Pretty elite group. My offical opinion on this subject. Warner had 3 great years, no one can take that away from him. He also is in an elite group of players (see above). However, 9 of these players, depending on who you ask continued to dominate throughout the years. They were among the NFL elite for many years while Warner has been average at best. But hey, Warner's career isnt over yet, its not like hes retired, he could become a great QB again. And none of this talk would happen, yet I believe that he probably will never be in the top 5 of QBs in the league, and if you can't do that you must be classified as not one of the greats, but a good player for 3 years. 20 years from now, that will probably get you in an Afleck trivia question during a Sunday game.

BTW, Warner is just one unlucky guy. He married that horrible looking "women" before he was known as a great QB. He probably married her when he still was working at the checkout at the supermarket. Damn if the best looking chick you can get working at a supermarket is THAT, then god save all those poor souls who work checkout at Albertsons or Safeway.

[Glengoyne]

I don't think he is one of the greatest QBs of all time, but I certainly don't think he is anywhere near average either. Yes he has been less than spectacular since the string of injuries, but I think it was a joke to sit him down this year. The one game he played in, he got a concussion on the first series, played at half speed the rest of the game and threw for almost 350 yards. Yes that went along with 6 fumbles, but he threw for 350 yards in a daze.

How he is looked at depends on how he does in the future. If he even puts up a couple of "good-very good" years he will start to approach the level of play his agent is proclaiming.

[Darkiller]

The Quarterbacks that have been "two-time" NFL MVPs are only four :

- Joe Montana (89-90)
- Steve Young (92-94) / for the record, Steve finished a close 2nd in 1993.
- Brett Favre (95-96...co MVP in 97)
- Kurt Warner (99-01)

[judicial clerk]

For purposes of this debate, i would like to see Warner go to Baltimore. They have a great o-line and a great runningback to take pressure off the QB. I would like to see what Warner could do wit Baltimore's mediocre receivers.

[Franklinnoble]

For purposes of this debate, i would like to see Warner go to Baltimore. They have a great o-line and a great runningback to take pressure off the QB. I would like to see what Warner could do wit Baltimore's mediocre receivers.
That's not a bad idea, actually...

[HornedFrog Purple]

I rate him as one of hopefully many Roy Williams sends to the bench. :D

[clintl]

Unless his career path changes direction again, I think it might be fair to consider him football's version of Roger Maris - a guy with a few absolutely brilliant seasons who tailed off pretty quickly because of injuries.

[Leonidas]

ONly way Warner gets to Canton is with the ticket he bought for himself. He was great under Vermeil, mediocre under Martz. He was a guy who clicked well with the right system, the right players, at the right time. After that, he was a dud. Danny White and Mark Rypien deserve about as much consideration.

[Fritz]

I put him right up there with the best to be wrecked by soup.

[EagleFan]

Nope--never watched Jim Brown. I'm not saying that he was or wasn't the greatest (though Sweetness will always be my favorite). I am saying that we have no way of knowing how much longer he would have been great had he continued to play. Maybe he would have hit 25,000; maybe not. The wheels come off for everyone--especially running backs. By retiring when he did, I think he managed to secure his legend better than he would have had he continued to play.


Exactly how would that have tarnished his image to not be considered one of the best? He had already done it for clearly long enough to be one of the best. Basically what you're saying is that someone could rush for 18,000 yards over about a dozen season and then hang on for 3 more injury lpagues years, only rushing for abuot 100 yards total and you would remember them for those final three years instaed of the first 12?

Warner's problems aren't physical, they are mental. Once he suffere the first injury, he hears footsteps in his sleep. Hell, if you were walked up behind him in line at the grocery store he would probably throw the grapefruit away to avoid the sack, knocking out a cashier 5 registers over.

[EagleFan]

http://www.firstthingsfirstfoundation.com/pics/Morewarnercollage.jpg

You know, I had no idea what she looked like until now... my god, she looks old enough to be his mother... *shudder*


What's scary is that an ex-coworker of mine used to babble on about how hot she is..... *shudder*

[Dutch]

What was her name?

[JeeberD]

Danny White and Mark Rypien deserve about as much consideration.

Don't you EVER mention Rypien in the same breath as Danny boy... :mad:

[Franklinnoble]

Don't you EVER mention Rypien in the same breath as Danny boy... :mad:
Yeah, no kidding... how many MVP awards and Super Bowls did Danny White win? :D

[JeeberD]

Hey, I bet he could punt the ball a hell of a lot better than little Markie ever could...

[Franklinnoble]

Hey, I bet he could punt the ball a hell of a lot better than little Markie ever could...
"Little?" Dude, Rypien was like 6'4", 240#.... he would have crushed Danny boy in a fight.