After Gammons claimed the Giants were "done"

[Sharpieman]

The Giants won their 7th straight game tonight after a 9th inning walk-off homer by Barry. Thats his 3rd homer in 4 games. The Giants are 3.5 games behind the first place Padres and are 3rd place behind the slumping Dodgers, who have won 2 of their last 10 and lost 3 in a row. MrBug must be getting a little nervous...

[MrBug708]

Nervous about what? The fact the Dodgers were picked to finish third in their division?

[Sharpieman]

No that the Dodgers are starting to suck and the Giants are starting to be good, just like every year when the Dodgers choke.

[MrBug708]

As opposed to the Giants who decide to pick the playoffs to choke?

[Sharpieman]

Hey, at least they make the playoffs, when was the last time the Dodgers made the playoffs?

[Vince]

My god. I have to hear enough of this inane chatter away from the internet, being a Giants fan who lives in SoCal. Clean it up guys...the Giants are a much better team than the Dodgers recently, while the Dodgers have more recent world series success to speak of. Whoopty-frickin-doo.

[MrBug708]

A lot sooner then I can remember the Giants winning anything

And if you are gonna talk trash try to have one of these things covered
A)Have a better record then theDodgers
B)Have the better H2H record vs the Dodgers
C)Actually have witnessed a World Series Title by the Giants

Lemme know when you reach one of these.....

[MrBug708]

5-1 this year Vince, 5-1......

[Vince]

:mad: I know. I don't even have that anymore :(

[Sharpieman]

dola, I am speaking a too soon though. The Giants could still suck this year, but these last few games have been very interesting.

[MrBug708]

Seeing as how Nomo is on the DL, we traded away Kevin Brown, Shawn Green sucks, and have a new GM, AND we don't throw batteries.....I'm not worried about this year. Most Dodger fans knew we werent doing that much since we had to go through new ownership....

[LionsFan10]

Yes, the Dodgers are "starting to suck," it took them a little while to start to suck but they somehow remembered and now they're doing what they do best. Go Dodgers! I wouldn't worry too much, though. The one man show known as the San Francisco Giants are known to choke themselves, only they like to do it later on, like around September, October ... you know, when things get important.

This from a Tigers fan .... nah, whom I kiddin'?

[MrBug708]

Hey, is Bonds back to playing in Day games followed by night games? Wasn't sure where he was again....

[Sharpieman]

MrBug always likes to go back to the World Series argument. And you're right, the Dodgers have been a better team historically. But in recent years as Vince noted the Dodgers have been average and have choked many years in a row. 5-1 against the Giants, don't care, there are many games between the two rivals left and during that time when the Giants lost to the Dodgers, the Giants were sucking.

[JeeberD]

Yes, the Dodgers are "starting to suck," it took them a little while to start to suck but they somehow remembered and now they're doing what they do best. Go Dodgers! I wouldn't worry too much, though. The one man show known as the San Francisco Giants are known to choke themselves, only they like to do it later on, like around September, October ... you know, when things get important.

This from a Tigers fan .... nah, whom I kiddin'?


Hey now, this is a California bitch fight. The likes of you and me don't belong in this thread. Just sit back and enjoy the anger... :)

[Sharpieman]

And people say that the Dodgers and Giants don't have a heated rivalry.

[MrBug708]

5-1 against the Giants, don't care, there are many games between the two rivals left and during that time when the Giants lost to the Dodgers, the Giants were sucking.

I want you to repeat that statement in your mind SM. Til you actually realized what you said....

But in recent years as Vince noted the Dodgers have been average and have choked many years in a row

How can a team "be average" and choke at the same time? If they are average, isn't not making the playoffs, par for the course?

[Sharpieman]

I'm not going to dignify your inane comments with an answer. I think you're just mad because the Dodgers suck once again.

[Vince]

LionsFan - You really a Tiger fan? I'd be curious to hear your take on how they're doing and if you think they will continue their success.

Here's my take on what I know. Keep in mind that I watched a lot of the Giants' games up until they started winning...I've been really bogged down in school work the last week and a half or so.

Dodgers: Playing above their heads to begin the season (it took serious effort not to put 'WAY above their heads' :)). Also playing below their ability right now. They seem to not be getting any bounces, and not only is Shawn Green not hitting for HR power, he's not hitting at all this year. Last year he still hit a lot of doubles and was actually a productive force for the Dodgers. This year he plain old sucks. I don't know what to make of the guy, to be honest...I think that injury (two seasons ago? Maybe more?) messed him up way more than he or the team wants to admit. Prediction: They'll obviously get out of their funk, but I don't know how close they can get to their early season success. Overall - 88-74, Wildcard Contenders.

Giants: Playing WAY below their ability level to begin the year. To steal a quote from Westwood Blues (http://westwoodblues.blogspot.com/) (A Giants Fan Blog...quite amusing too), the clusterfuck that is right field (Michael Tucker, Jeffrey Hammonds and Dustin Mohr) are better than this...they're playing below replacement value players right now. Combine that with everyone not named Bonds, Schmidt or Grissom on the team playing like ABSOLUTE TRASH, and it's easy to see why they have sucked so far. Brett Bombko is horrendous, and our bullpen is pretty shakey as well. However, Rueter seems to have found a groove, and the rest of the team is starting to turn it around (I haven't been watching much, so I don't know why/how). Prediction: We'll play at or above .500 ball the rest of the way out, I think...but that could be my orange and black colored glasses getting in the way. Overall - 82-80, Wildcard hopefulls for a while, but never serious contenders.

I think in all honesty that the Padres are going to pull out the NL West this year.

[Vince]

Dola - Can't be sure about this Bug, but I believe that Bonds has been playing Night/Day games back-to-back more often this year. I don't know why, though.

[Sharpieman]

I think thats a pretty accurate prediction about the Padres. I have no idea where the Dodgers or the Giants will end up this year. I'm not going to try to begin to predict. These last seven games have been great though. Schmidt is back to his old self, Bonds is healthy, Pedro Feliz has been great all season, Williams is steady, A.J, is starting to hit pretty well, Alfonzo is starting to play pretty decent, and the bullpen has finally come through and been very steady. Brian Sabean has said that he's been tempted to re-work this team through trades, we'll see what he does. One thing to note though is that if the giants can stay at least around .500 until the trade deadline, they'll be able to work a more benefical trade then if they were way below .500 because they would be too desperate at that point.

[Crapshoot]

I think the Giants will be better, especially once they dump Tomko and give Correia the spot, and I expect Williams to keep improving. I also think they've got to get better offensively- Alfonzo cannot possibly be this bad.

[daedalus]

Here's my take on what I know. Keep in mind that I watched a lot of the Giants' games up until they started winning...I've been really bogged down in school work the last week and a half or so.Damn. That's got to be one of the suckiest thing for a fan.Giants: Playing WAY below their ability level to begin the year.I don't know. Did they really play below their ability? I don't see a whole lot of talent on that field beyond a few positions . . . well, actually, Bonds. Pierz . . . Pierzy . . . what's-his-head was bound to have a drop off after leaving the friendly confines of the Baggie Dome for a fairly tough park for hitters. Alfonso isn't really the Alfonso of his glory days . . . otherwise the Giants wouldn't be able to feature him. Not much else. Perhaps they were just playing to their ability and are just now playing over their head? I would put a lot of it on Bonds' dominance and what seems to be Felipe Alou's best quality: some mystical ability to just wring out every last bit of performance out of whatever team he's been given. And I'm not an Alou fan. I'm happy they're doing well, though, since I like Sabean and Bonds.

[Glengoyne]

I am a Giants fan and Even I think this thread should be titled "My team sucks less..right now".

With regards to Mr Bug. It does pain me that the Giants haven't won a WS in my lifetime, while I have watched the Dodger's win twice. However, I would rather have a team to root for in the post season, than tout yesteryear.

P.S. for Mr Bug. How old were you when the Dodgers won the World Series in '88?

[clintl]

I was really concerned with the makeup of this Giants team when the season started. I'm really happy to see them doing well now (and the Dodgers doing poorly), but when you're in trouble as a team when you have to give two spots in your rotation to Brett Tomko and Dustin Hermanson. Not to mention actually playing Michael Tucker as a starting outfielder, and Neifi Perez as a starting shortstop.

[kingfc22]

I love this rivalry. Especially, when the Dodgers blow and they are only .500 at home. With this recent homestand, it seems like the Giants have finally remembered that they dominate at Pac Bel...er....SBC Park. With that said, this next road trip for the Giants is going to kill their bullpen as they travel for a 4-game series in Arizona and a 4-game series in Colorado. What was the schedule make smoking???

[MrBug708]

I am a Giants fan and Even I think this thread should be titled "My team sucks less..right now".

With regards to Mr Bug. It does pain me that the Giants haven't won a WS in my lifetime, while I have watched the Dodger's win twice. However, I would rather have a team to root for in the post season, than tout yesteryear.

P.S. for Mr Bug. How old were you when the Dodgers won the World Series in '88?


Two things, these past couple of seasons, I do root for the Angels (unlike most Dodger fans) and so 2002 was especially fun to watch Bonds literally hurt his WS chances with his major blunder.

I've been alive for 2 Dodger WS's. That should help in that aspect.

I'm not going to dignify your inane comments with an answer. I think you're just mad because the Dodgers suck once again.

If I'm not mistaken, that is message board speak for "Game, Set, Match".

[IMetTrentGreen]

the padres are going to win the west anyway. i don't even know why you guys are getting all worked up

[MrBug708]

the padres are going to win the west anyway. i don't even know why you guys are getting all worked up

Kinda like how the Spurs weree going to beat the Lakers?

[Vince]

I don't know. Did they really play below their ability? I don't see a whole lot of talent on that field beyond a few positions . . . well, actually, Bonds. Pierz . . . Pierzy . . . what's-his-head was bound to have a drop off after leaving the friendly confines of the Baggie Dome for a fairly tough park for hitters. Alfonso isn't really the Alfonso of his glory days . . .
The entire offense, minus Barry Bonds, is batting .250 right now. Here's a rundown of career Average vs. Current Season Average for some of our players:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 240pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=5 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=17>Player</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Career</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Current</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>Diff</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Alfonzo</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.28699999999999998">0.287</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.27800000000000002">0.278</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="8.9999999999999525E-3" x:fmla="=B2-C2">0.009</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>N. Perez</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.26800000000000002">0.268</TD><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0.210</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="5.8000000000000024E-2" x:fmla="=B3-C3">0.058</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Hammonds</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.27200000000000002">0.272</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.20699999999999999">0.207</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="6.5000000000000002E-2" x:fmla="=B4-C4">0.065</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Average</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Mohr</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.252">0.252</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.157">0.157</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="9.5000000000000001E-2" x:fmla="=B5-C5">0.095</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="5.7333333333333347E-2" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D4, D5, D6)">0.057333</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tucker</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.25800000000000001">0.258</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.246">0.246</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="1.2000000000000011E-2" x:fmla="=B6-C6">0.012</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Pierzynski</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.29799999999999999">0.298</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.26900000000000002">0.269</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.899999999999997E-2" x:fmla="=B7-C7">0.029</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Snow</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.26300000000000001">0.263</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.23799999999999999">0.238</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.5000000000000001E-2" x:fmla="=B8-C8">0.025</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Team Avg.</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.27114285714285719" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(B2:B8)">0.271</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.22928571428571429" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C2:C8)">0.229</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="3.5666666666666666E-2" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(D2, D3, E5, D7, D8)">0.036</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Rueter</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4.15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5.24</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num x:fmla="=C12-B12">1.09</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tomko</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4.65</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5.15</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num x:fmla="=C13-B13">0.50</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

That Average on the right is the average of Hammonds, Mohr and Tucker, the black hole that is Right Field for the Giants. The Team Average for the difference between Career and Current average is taken from that average for the three of them. So 5 of our 8 every day fielding starters combine to bat 36 points below their career average. That is definitely playing below your ability. You combine that with Rueter and Tomko absolutely blowing it early in the year, and it's easy to see (in my opinion at least) that the Giants are better than they've played early. What you also have to remember, is that these stats include the latest 10-15 game stretch in which the Giants have played pretty well...so two or three weeks ago it was even worse than this...as of May 2nd, Rueter's ERA was 7.06 :eek:

My conlcusion is that the Giants are better than they played for the first 35 to 40 games of the season.

[MrBug708]

How did you compute the stats though Vince? Assuming you just took the average, it's skewed a lot by Mohr, to the point where he shouldn't be a starter period and a bench person could do better, even hitting at .200.

[Sharpieman]

Two things, these past couple of seasons, I do root for the Angels (unlike most Dodger fans) and so 2002 was especially fun to watch Bonds literally hurt his WS chances with his major blunder.

I've been alive for 2 Dodger WS's. That should help in that aspect.



If I'm not mistaken, that is message board speak for "Game, Set, Match".
The reason you have to root for the Angels is because the Dodgers have sucked it up.

No the guy asked HOW OLD WERE YOU when the Dodgers won both those WS?

Thats 8 wins in a row for the Giants after last nights win and they're leading 2-0 right now.

[Vince]

How did you compute the stats though Vince? Assuming you just took the average, it's skewed a lot by Mohr, to the point where he shouldn't be a starter period and a bench person could do better, even hitting at .200.
That's the point, though...I'm trying to show you that these guys are playing way below their ability. If you take Mohr out of the equation, the Right Fielders still have a difference of over .036, so they're still dragging down the average.

[MrBug708]

The reason you have to root for the Angels is because the Dodgers have sucked it up.

No the guy asked HOW OLD WERE YOU when the Dodgers won both those WS?

Thats 8 wins in a row for the Giants after last nights win and they're leading 2-0 right now.

I was conceived during the Dodgers '81 Series and saw Kirk Gibson's '88 World series.

And your Giants WS memory?

[Vince]

To further explain...I combined Mohr, Tucker and Hammonds. The average of their differences was computed as the Right Fielder's difference, then that combined Right Fielder difference was used in the team average difference. So Mohr was 1/3 of one person, or 1/24 of the total.

[Chief Rum]

Ignoring for a second that average is probably at best only a very subpar indicator of hitting success, I see reason to believe that your take on this is a bit flawed, Vince.

Hammond and Perez inflated their averages significantly by playing in Colorado. Alfonzo and Snow are on the down side of their careers, especially Snow. There is reason to believe all four aren't much better than what they have shown this year.

Tomko pitched a good deal of his career at Safeco, very much a pitcher's park.

You have a saving grace in Pierzynski and Mohr, who are probably suffering from changing leagues. They should get better, although neither of them is truly anywhere near even a solid hitter, much less the top kinds of hitters you need to make a serious run to and in the postseason.

You also hurt the statistical validity of your argument when you exclude those players playing well, and fail to mention how you're factoring in the right field trio (only explaining it later). You shoyuld have all of the Giants listed there and see if anyone is hitting over his previously proven ability (Grissom and maybe Feliz come to mind).

Reuter should be better, no doubt about that. In fact, he's the only guy on your entire list that is really not playing the way he should be, and only he, Pierzynski and Mohr have a realistic likelihood to return to their normal levels of production, IMO (among players that are significantly different than their current stats--I don't regard Tucker that way, or Alfonzo for that matter).

CR

[Bad-example]

Alfonzo had a horrible first half last year but put up solid numbers in the second half. After another slow start this season it would not be unsurprising to see him pick up steam again.

"You have a saving grace in Pierzynski and Mohr, who are probably suffering from changing leagues. They should get better, although neither of them is truly anywhere near even a solid hitter, much less the top kinds of hitters you need to make a serious run to and in the postseason."

Um...I thought Pierzynski was a career .300 hitter and an all star a couple years ago. You really think he is nowhere near a solid hitter?

[Chief Rum]

Um...I thought Pierzynski was a career .300 hitter and an all star a couple years ago. You really think he is nowhere near a solid hitter?

It might be a difference of what you and I mean by "solid". He's definitely not a bad hitter. I'm talking the kind of hitter that serves as a run-producer, maybe not a star but is the kind of guy you find on good teams in the #2, #5, #6 type spots. Pierzynski is not that guy.

As for his average, once again, average is at best an iffy indicator of true hitting success. The guy gets hits, but he doesn't know the meaning of a walk, has mediocre gap power and very subpar power to the fences. An All Star at catcher doesn't mean so much. It's a defensive position, so players with a good run offensively can easily get into the All Star game at this position. I haven't heard that Pierzynski is all that great a defensive catcher, although I could be wrong about that. Consider that Damian Miller has an All Star appearance. Damian Miller?

So, now, I would not consider Peirzynski anywhere near the "solid hitter" as I am defining it. Bonds needs significant help on this team offensively, not a decent support player like Pierzynski.

CR

[Vince]

CR - It was only a hastily compiled set of statistics, in all honesty :)

That being said...I categorized the data at the beginning as the Giants' non-Bonds offense. The only players I excluded were Grissom, Feliz, and Durham. Durham is batting almost exactly at his career average. But he has only played in 25 games. I could include his replacements, but the point is to show that our regulars are sucking it. In the original data set, I did explain that I used an average of the three players in right field, although I did word it terribly.

If I wanted to further qualify it, I would let you all know that Mohr's only had 50 or so at bats, and that he's likely to improve with more plate appearances as his stats normalize. I also am of the camp that thinks that Batting Average is a terrible indicator of offensive production. But I don't know how many people subscribe to that theory, so I took one of the more noticable numbers.

As for having reason to believe that Hammonds, Perez, Snow and Alfonzo are not very much better than they have been playing, well I think that their drop in production is a bit much. Sure, we should expect a decline...but this much? And Tomko having pitched in a pitchers park seems to be a moot point...Pac Bell (SBC, whatever) is one of, if not the, best pitcher's parks in the league.

As for Pierzynski and Mohr...I think you're selling them a little short, but you are correct in indicating that they aren't typical of the power hitters a team needs to perform well in the post-season. However, with Bonds in our lineup, we don't NEED that amazing a power hitter to back him up...simple solid hitters should be enough. And Pierzynski is at least a solid hitter.

The point of my numbers wasn't to excuse the Giants' lackluster performance in the least...only to point out that the majority of the Giants' offense has been playing sub-par baseball this season.

[Vince]

It might be a difference of what you and I mean by "solid". He's definitely not a bad hitter. I'm talking the kind of hitter that serves as a run-producer, maybe not a star but is the kind of guy you find on good teams in the #2, #5, #6 type spots. Pierzynski is not that guy.

As for his average, once again, average is at best an iffy indicator of true hitting success. The guy gets hits, but he doesn't know the meaning of a walk, has mediocre gap power and very subpar power to the fences. An All Star at catcher doesn't mean so much. It's a defensive position, so players with a good run offensively can easily get into the All Star game at this position. I haven't heard that Pierzynski is all that great a defensive catcher, although I could be wrong about that. Consider that Damian Miller has an All Star appearance. Damian Miller?

So, now, I would not consider Peirzynski anywhere near the "solid hitter" as I am defining it. Bonds needs significant help on this team offensively, not a decent support player like Pierzynski.

CR
AJ Pierzynski is an above average defensive catcher. I just did a ton of statistical research on him this last year in hopes of helping him win his arbitration case against the Minnesota Twins. I was a little chagrined when it turns out I actually helped him win more money from my favorite team, the Giants.

What I found out is that Pierzynski is above average in almost every respect, as a catcher. So he outperforms the average catcher in nearly every statistical category. However, that's not saying much. His true value is to be a role-playing hitter; Chief Rum is definitely correct that he's not your prototypical #5 hitter. But like I said before, I think the Giants would be fine if they had 4 #6 hitters batting right behind Bonds all in a row.

Defensively, Pierzynski is also strong...he is attributed with a fair portion of the success of Minnesota's pitching staff, and his CERA (the ERA of the pitchers on his team while he's catching) was much better than that of his teammates for his years with the Twins. He also throws out batters at a better than 32% clip...and the magic number at which stolen bases become successful is 70%. So he's keeping stolen bases from hurting his team.

[Bad-example]

To say AJ is not a #1-5 hitter is one thing, but saying he was "nowhere near a solid hitter" did sound like you were making him out to be a bum :)

[Chief Rum]

To say AJ is not a #1-5 hitter is one thing, but saying he was "nowhere near a solid hitter" did sound like you were making him out to be a bum :)

Yeah, sorry for that impression. He's definitely not a bum, one of the better hitters on the Giants and, as Vince pointed out, at the position of catcher, too.

I just don't think he's the guy the Giants need to support Bonds (other than getting on to be driven on, and even that is hurt by his poor plate discipline--at least he doesn't strike out a lot).

Vince may be right that the Giants don't need two or three other true quality bats with Bonds to succeed. After all, they didn't have all that much last year, and they had a very good record and won the West. But I think the Giants were much better when they had Kent and Burks and a healthier, younger Aurillia around. Even Santiago provided more protection (although if I had to choose between the two, I would definitely go with Pierzynski).

I suppose that it might be obvious they are better with those guys around. ;)

CR

[Sharpieman]

I was conceived during the Dodgers '81 Series and saw Kirk Gibson's '88 World series.

And your Giants WS memory?
And the winning streak extends to 9

[MrBug708]

And the winning streak extends to 9

Wow, quite the comeback you have ther. I answered the question and all you have is "9 in a row"?

[kingfc22]

We'll be ahead of you by the end of next week.

At lease we can agree that the Lakers will go on to win game 6 and then destroy any of the Eastern pretenders.

[DeToxRox]

This is a funny debate because it's all based off the best team in peoples lifetimes. Recent history tells the story better then anything. And within the last, we'll say four years, to get us back at the start of the millenium, the Giants have been better.

In October we'll see, but even though I hate agreeing with IMTG, I doubt it will matter; the Padres are taking the NL West.

[Sharpieman]

Wow, quite the comeback you have ther. I answered the question and all you have is "9 in a row"?
Dude let me answer your question. The Giants haven't won a WS. So what? I think this is a clear case of "What have you done for me lately?" So what have the Dodgers done lately? OH thats right, they haven't made the playoffs in 8 YEARS! They haven't won a playoff game since 1988.

[MrBug708]

Because making the playoffs and not doing anything is OH SO MUCH BETTER then not making the playoffs and doing something.

Lemme ask this, if "What have you done for me lately" is so popular with you, what have the Giants done this year and how is their record vs the Dodgers? Why do you get to pick the time frame?

Oh ya, the Dodgers won tonight. You cant gain ground without us losing.

[DeToxRox]

I still think the point is you're arguing about second place.

[clintl]

This is a funny debate because it's all based off the best team in peoples lifetimes. Recent history tells the story better then anything. And within the last, we'll say four years, to get us back at the start of the millenium, the Giants have been better.



It has been more like seven. The last time the Dodgers finished ahead of the Giants in the standings was 1996.

[Bad-example]

That is correct...seven years. Contending for the last seven years has meant very good times for Giants fans. They played almost no meaningless games during that stretch. We got to see them in the World Series, and while they didn't win, they were still half the story in one of the better WS of all time. I will never forget Bonds' MVP-deserving performance and J.T. Snow's save of Darren Baker at home plate.

As I posted a month ago, the Dodger roster has the look of a 3rd place team. The Giants have plenty of reason to think they can battle the Padres for the weak NL West. Perhaps they will again fail to win the WS this year. But an 8th year of contending all year long and finishing ahead of the big money Dodgers would be just fine with me.

[DeToxRox]

I think Bad-example hit the nail on the head. I'd rather watch a game that means something and lose then watch the Tigers lose 119 times. I love the Tigers, watched almost all the games last year because I am a die-hard, but it's rough.

It's funny to watch people bicker when you guys still have it pretty well off.

[clintl]

It's funny to watch people bicker when you guys still have it pretty well off.

Hey, without the LA teams, the Cowboys would be all we Northern Californians would have to hate.

[clintl]

We got to see them in the World Series, and while they didn't win, they were still half the story in one of the better WS of all time. I will never forget Bonds' MVP-deserving performance and J.T. Snow's save of Darren Baker at home plate.



Dola...

Yes, despite the disappointment of losing, that was a great World Series, unlike 1989, which did not even seem like a World Series because of the earthquake.

[MrBug708]

Nothing like a kid stealing any memorable performances from your team eh?

[Sharpieman]

Where's your memorable performance the last 8 years MrBug?

[Sharpieman]

Because making the playoffs and not doing anything is OH SO MUCH BETTER then not making the playoffs and doing something.

Lemme ask this, if "What have you done for me lately" is so popular with you, what have the Giants done this year and how is their record vs the Dodgers? Why do you get to pick the time frame?

Oh ya, the Dodgers won tonight. You cant gain ground without us losing.
It's the beginning of the season, I'm not worrying about it too much. Anyways, the Dodgers usually choke the second half of the season. I think making the playoffs is doing something. I mean, at least the Giants have won a few playoff games in 20 years.

[Sharpieman]

Hey, without the LA teams, the Cowboys would be all we Northern Californians would have to hate.
Theres still the Oakland-Niner rivalry. We hate each other with a passion.

[rexallllsc]

San Francisco Giants = 0 World Series titles.

[Sharpieman]

San Francisco Giants = 0 World Series titles.
I think we already knew that.

[MrBug708]

It's the beginning of the season, I'm not worrying about it too much. Anyways, the Dodgers usually choke the second half of the season. I think making the playoffs is doing something. I mean, at least the Giants have won a few playoff games in 20 years.

Dodgers have won a World Series in the last 20 years.

Like I said, keep picking out convienent time frames.

[DeToxRox]

Dodgers have won a World Series in the last 20 years.

Like I said, keep picking out convienent time frames.

why not this year, October?

[MrBug708]

Well, this year, the Dodgers are 5-1 vs the Giants and have a better record. I'm fine with that timeframe.

[Sharpieman]

WOW, first time in how many years? All I would like to point out is in recent years, when you weren't conceived or you weren't 7 years old. The Giants have been a better team, a much better team than the Dodgers.

[MrBug708]

And the Dodgers have been a much better team outside of those 7 years, so you still are in a hole....

[DeToxRox]

i love these debates.

i still think this debate is meaningless though, because the Padres are taking the West as I've said.

But I hope this debate rages on no matter.

[MrBug708]

Well, the Dodgers won tonight to move them back to 1/2 a game

[DeToxRox]

I am just going to be the Tigers fan who wants to see fireworks.

But speaking of the Tigs

MEATHOOK IS BACK

8-4 W today, we're picking it up now boys.

[Sharpieman]

And the Dodgers have been a much better team outside of those 7 years, so you still are in a hole....
I think you didn't hear me or that smog in LA is messing up your brain somehow. I said that recently the Giants have been better. Yes the Dodgers have been better in the past. Like before you were in junior high.

[clintl]

Theres still the Oakland-Niner rivalry. We hate each other with a passion.

Well, yes, the Raiders are in special category, seeing how they are traitors to Northern California in addition to all of their other faults.

[MrBug708]

I think you didn't hear me or that smog in LA is messing up your brain somehow. I said that recently the Giants have been better. Yes the Dodgers have been better in the past. Like before you were in junior high.

Sharpieman, Arent you in HS?

[Sharpieman]

Nope

[Sharpieman]

Well, yes, the Raiders are in special category, seeing how they are traitors to Northern California in addition to all of their other faults.
I don't think its the Raiders fault. It's Al Davis, the evil dumbass. But I couldn't care whether the Raiders are in LA or in Oakland. I'll hate them no matter where they are.

[MrBug708]

Nope

Sorry, you are 19/20 so you've only seen the Giants in one WS right?

[Sharpieman]

Basically. But I do have the 89' series on tape. I also have all the Niner playoff runs/Superbowl wins in the 80's on tape too.

[MrBug708]

Well, it's not like anything worth mentioning happened in 1988....

[Suicane75]

This thread is more interesting than actually watching Baseball.

[DanGarion]

WOW, first time in how many years? All I would like to point out is in recent years, when you weren't conceived or you weren't 7 years old. The Giants have been a better team, a much better team than the Dodgers.
What the hell does Kyle's age to do with any of this? The only thing the Giants have over the Dodgers was the time they knocked the Dodgers out of a race with Bobby Thompsons home run. Other then that we have more rings and more play off victories then the Giants.

As for the Giants vs Dodgers record in the last 20 years.

SFG 317 163 154 0.514 1395 1282

So that would be the Dodgers have a .514 against the Giants. Not too shabby if I say so my self. The only other teams with better records against the Giants in that 20 year span are the Cubbies and Astro's (teams with over 100 games against). The Dodgers have also scored more runs against the Giants in that 20 year span then any other team.

[rexallllsc]

I think you didn't hear me or that smog in LA is messing up your brain somehow. I said that recently the Giants have been better. Yes the Dodgers have been better in the past. Like before you were in junior high.

Who cares if you won a few more games? You've never won anything worth a damn.

[clintl]

The only thing the Giants have over the Dodgers was the time they knocked the Dodgers out of a race with Bobby Thompsons home run.

We've got Joe Morgan, too. And Brian Johnson.

[MrBug708]

*ducks a flying battery*

Things are getting fun here, I'll admit

Dodgers, tied for first place!

[SirFozzie]

Speaking as one knowledgeable in one-sided "rivalries" (Boston v NY, anybody? :))..

Let the end of season judge who's better.

Oh.. and speaking as one knowledgable of Bug..

*punts Bug in the gajoolies while he ducks the flying battery*

That felt good ;)

[AENeuman]

And if you are gonna talk trash try to have one of these things covered
A)Have a better record then theDodgers
B)Have the better H2H record vs the Dodgers
C)Actually have witnessed a World Series Title by the Giants.

Not sure of that reasoning. Strange that a WS title, whenever it was, is used to tip an argument. It almost seems like you don't even need to follow the dog's anymore because they have won a title. Since they have already achieved that thing, trying for anymore would be redundant and boring.
So if the Giants won a title in ?, and spilt the first 6 out of 19 games this season, you would submit and say all criticism is valid?
Seems the truth is more that this is a great rivalry that not only lives and dies with each day's game, but is also profoundly connected to a rich and nasty past.

[gtmarc]

As an old Braves fan, I do miss the old pennant races with these teams. Both the Giants and the Dodgers were much easier teams to hate than the Marlins. :)

Not that the Braves would be doing very well in that division this year either. But it does look like Cox is starting to fashion a team from this bunch.

I do miss the old pre-wildcard pennant races. I remember deeply caring about how far behind the Dodgers and the Giants the Braves were in June. Being 8 or 9 games back before the Braves made their annual summer run was always a cause of great concern. Nowadays you just yawn, because if a team's any good at all they can get the wild card.

But both the Giants and the Dodgers are part of some of my fondest memories of baseball. I remember in '91, when the Braves had been last for almost a decade and suddenly in June they were like third and maybe 10 games behind the Dodgers. Doesn't sound like much, but for the Braves at that time that was the best spot they'd been in for ages. I remeber watching the Dodgers lose game after game as they threw away that lead before the all-star break, and Strawberry mouthing off about how the Braves couldn't possibly beat them, and being seranded by 50,000 in Atlanta all chanting Daarrrrrrrrrrryllllllllllllllll.

And of course, the Braves - Giants pennant race that last year they had the old divisions was a classic. Probably the two best teams in baseball that year, and instead of getting to see just 7 games between them in the fall, I was treated to a four month long pennant race, where the Giants opened up a big lead, then the Braves played just absolutely incredible baseball in August to reel 'em back in.

Those months that year, watching both the Giants and the Braves win game after game, to the point that when the other team really did lose it became a big deal, was probably the best fun I'd ever had watching baseball.

And I remember a great cartoon from the local paper. Bonds in a Giants uniform, looking in a car rear-view mirror, with the typical logo underneath it "objects in the mirror might be closer than they appear". There was a tomahawk embedded in the mirror right above that text!!!!!!

Too bad the morons that run baseball ruined all that by putting in the wild cards. I'd much rather have months of an exciting pennant race over one little playoff series.

[Suicane75]

I think the one thing that's being left out of this discussion, the one thing that Dodgers fans can't contend with, the one thing that the Giants will always have over them, is of course, Steve Decker.

I got nothin.

[DanGarion]

I think the one thing that's being left out of this discussion, the one thing that Dodgers fans can't contend with, the one thing that the Giants will always have over them, is of course, Steve Decker.

I got nothin.
Hahah Steve Decker! Talk about some power!

But we did have Billy Ashley!

[Suicane75]

I saw an old ESPN Classic broadcast of Hideo Nomos no-hitter vs the Rockies and Steve Decker was playing for Colorado, made me think back to all the old blue chip prospects of my youth like him and Andujar Cedano and Wil Cordero.....they were supposed to be great.

[MrBug708]

I can remember when the Dodgers gave up on Paul Konerko, Karim Garcia, Pedro, John Wetteland, yet stuck it out for the long haul with Jose Offerman, til they realized he couldn't field at SS

[Suicane75]

How about the Astros drafting Phil Nevin, putting him right in at 3rd base then giving up on him only to have him turn out to be a star just a couple of years down the road.
And as a Phillies fan, i can never forget Jeff Jackson being draft ahead of Frank Thomas, oyyy.

[MrBug708]

The same Phill Nevin that the Angels traded to the Padres for Andy freaking Fox, because they needed a SS

[DanGarion]

Heh or Phil Plantier another guy with tremendous power. Matt Nokes.

So many guys that could hit the cover off the ball. To bad they couldn't tell the difference from a curveball, fastball, or changeup.

[Suicane75]

The same Phill Nevin that the Angels traded to the Padres for Andy freaking Fox, because they needed a SS

Man, i never realized the Angels had him, I always assumed he went straight from Detroit to SD during the Randy Smith debacle. Traded for Andy Fox, now that's comedy.

[Suicane75]

Heh or Phil Plantier another guy with tremendous power. Matt Nokes.

So many guys that could hit the cover off the ball. To bad they couldn't tell the difference from a curveball, fastball, or changeup.


The thing I'll always remember about Matt Nokes was a Sunday Night game of the week on ESPN, when Nokes took a Roger Clemens fastball in the ribs, trapped it with his arm and then backhanded it back at him while stareing him down......one of the coolest things ive ever seen.

[MrBug708]

Dodgers still can't hit and the Giants cant make up any ground.

IHad to bump this since I knew you wouldn't.

[TroyF]

Dodgers still can't hit and the Giants cant make up any ground.

IHad to bump this since I knew you wouldn't.


Huh? The Giants made up 5 games in the standing during that winning streak. That's over a ten game stretch for both teams. The Dodgers have reason to worry.

The Giants have been above a .600 ballclub after the break in each of the past two years. The Dodgers have been a .500 or below team in the second half both of those years.

If history is any indication, the Giants simply hold serve in the first half, the Dodgers are in a world of trouble.

I'm not saying the Giants will win it. I'm not saying the Dodgers will lose it. But all things being equal, if you'd told the Giants they'd be 16-24 on May 19, they'd be more than happy to learn that by early June they were within a handful of games. Ask the Dodgers the same thing, and they'd tell you they blew a big chance.

In the end, both teams may have screwed up, because the Padres have a chance to be pretty good. My vote? I'd give a slight edge to the Giants to get another division title. By a hair over the Padres. The Dodgers lack of hitting REALLY shows up when the weather heats up and the offense SHOULD become easier. For them it doesn't. I expect them to fade again.

[Bad-example]

"Los Angeles Dodgers center fielder Milton Bradley was ejected by plate umpire Terry Craft moments after coming to bat in the sixth inning of Tuesday night's game against the Milwaukee Brewers. The tempestuous Bradley was immediately ejected after he stepped into the batter's box and said something to Craft.

Back in the lineup after missing two games with an injured left ankle, Bradley had to be restrained by manager Jim Tracy.

He then removed his batting gloves and placed them with his helmet and bat near home plate, raised his hands over his head and went back to the dugout.

Once in the dugout, Bradley grabbed a ball bag and emptied and its contents on the field before throwing the bag. He then threw a ball to the warning track in left field.

While the batboys picked up the balls, Tracy was ejected by second base umpire Joe West -- who one night earlier called a costly balk against Odalis Perez.

Play was held up for several more minutes while stadium personnel cleaned up the debris that fans threw onto the field from the left-field pavilion."

So, the Milton Bradly Meltdown in LA has begun. Really, wasn't it just a matter of time?

[MrBug708]

He's been kicked out of a game before, not the first time.

Troy, welcome back, but u missed the whole premise of the thread. yOu shouldn't talk trash about this year when you aren't ahead of the other team nor a winning record head to head.

[Sharpieman]

We've got Joe Morgan, too. And Brian Johnson.
Ah Brian Johnson, good times, good times.

[Sharpieman]

He's been kicked out of a game before, not the first time.

Troy, welcome back, but u missed the whole premise of the thread. yOu shouldn't talk trash about this year when you aren't ahead of the other team nor a winning record head to head.
I couldn't care less that the Dodgers have a better H2H record of the fact that their ahead of the Giants. Let me remind you it is only June. We still got a lot of games to go. All that matters is the end of the year standings. I feel pretty confident about the Giants chances this year and I reel pretty confident that the Dodgers will choke...once again...like they always do.

[TroyF]

He's been kicked out of a game before, not the first time.

Troy, welcome back, but u missed the whole premise of the thread. yOu shouldn't talk trash about this year when you aren't ahead of the other team nor a winning record head to head.

Why not? The Giants are the defending champions of that division. You are the ones who have to take that title from them. Fine you pounded them head to head in the first 6 meetings this year.

Problem is, you are now falling off the face of the Earth and they are on fire.

The fact you beat them 5 our of 6 times this year and are now only up 2 games is NOT a good thing for you. Baseball is a marathon, it is not a sprint. Taking a snapshot of any two or three series is generally meaningless. (the exact reason the Dodger fans could say the 10 game winning streak by the Giants is flukie)

Still, this isn't like football, basketball or hockey where you'll meet the team between 2-5 times for the entire season. The Dodgers and Giants have TWELVE more contests against each other. Most of those meeting in the second half when the Giants have been much stronger than the Giants in recent years.

I'm a Giants fan (I'm not), I'm not concerned a bit about the 1-5 start vs. the Dodgers. I'm concerned with my team being in a position to make a run after the break. I'd be feeling pretty good right now.

[MrBug708]

I couldn't care less that the Dodgers have a better H2H record of the fact that their ahead of the Giants. Let me remind you it is only June. We still got a lot of games to go. All that matters is the end of the year standings. I feel pretty confident about the Giants chances this year and I reel pretty confident that the Dodgers will choke...once again...like they always do.

Care to wager?

[DanGarion]

I couldn't care less that the Dodgers have a better H2H record of the fact that their ahead of the Giants. Let me remind you it is only June. We still got a lot of games to go. All that matters is the end of the year standings. I feel pretty confident about the Giants chances this year and I reel pretty confident that the Dodgers will choke...once again...like they always do.
History shows that the Dodgers are less likely to choke.

[Suicane75]

Care to wager?


Is this an open challenge, cause i'd be more than willing to wager that the Giants have a better record at the end of the year than the Dodgers.

[MrBug708]

No, only with Sharpieman

[Suicane75]

No, only with Sharpieman


:(

[Glengoyne]

History shows that the Dodgers are less likely to choke.
Recent History shows that the Dodgers are more likely to choke.

I'm sorry I can't let a useless thread die.

[Suicane75]

I'm waiting for the Sportscenter lead video of Paul LoDuca going after Milton Bradley in the locker room. :)

[Vince]

History shows that the Dodgers are less likely to choke.
Because the Dodgers have been such a good second-half team lately? What makes you say this?

[MrBug708]

Because the Dodgers have been such a good second-half team lately? What makes you say this?

Does anyone think that the Cubs choke?

[AENeuman]

While the last two years were a little fuzzy, I think Sabean can do some magic by the trade deadline. (can't remember the last good July trade by the dodgers). Seemed like Sabean's last trades were a bust, but Ainsworth, Moss, Ponson, have tanked.
I could see him trading a catcher for a starter or closer.
In a perfect world, Sabean would hire Livan to kill Nefi with his golf clubs.....