An observation

[Fritz]

For a while I have been a bit miffed about something. Watching the dedication of the WW2 memorial reminded me of it.

When the National Anthem was being played, and when the colors were being presented/retired almost all of the vets and older people stood and saluted either with the proper hand salute or had over their heart. Most of the younger people just kind of stood their and fidgeted.

Where did we go so off track that such a basic symbol of citizenship and respect has been discarded?

[damnMikeBrown]

When I was in the military, I only saluted when I was in uniform. I never put my hand over my heart unless I had a hat in my hand for the Star Spangled Banner.

When I pledge allegience however, I would place my hand over my heart.

To me, it's a song, not a pledge. Saluting the flag was both a privledge and obligation when in uniform, but I wasn't saluting the song.

[Fritz]

You rarely get the song without a flag being presented, and that is what you are paying respects to.

[Fritz]

dola

and what fucking bonehead thought shouting "O" in the anthem was a good idea. Damn Baltimore fans.

[cuervo72]

Right, and nowadays, at least at baseball games, you're lucky if folks stand or even take off their hats. They just keep on talking on their cell phones or drinking beer.

Or in Baltimore, yelling "O" during the middle of the anthem.

edit: yeah, what he said! Of course in Balmer they play John Denver during the 7th inning. :rolleyes:

[WSUCougar]

I agree with your sentiment, Fritz.

I think it's a combination of the meaning being diluted and the progression of our society. The anthem has become an entertainment exhibition, complete with bastardized lyrics and overdone patriotic choreography. Too often it's a joke.

We also have had generations of separation from our freedom being directly challenged, World War II being the last obvious conflict. Regardless of geo-politics and grand strategy (which is an argument for another thread), the other wars we have fought have had a distance and detachment to them. Add to that the warped view of individual "rights" and the litigious nature of our society, and it all allows Americans, in my opinion, to take their freedoms for granted.

I still get goose bumps when the anthem is done correctly and powerfully. I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.

[Ksyrup]

dola

and what fucking bonehead thought shouting "O" in the anthem was a good idea. Damn Baltimore fans.
At Dallas hockey games, "stars" gets the same treatment during the Anthem.

[sachmo71]

People don't know how much freedom costs anymore. They expect it, like it's a privledge. Maybe someday, they'll have to fight for it again. Respect must be earned, and a lot of folks just don't understand that.

As for the Stars games, I am guilty of that sin. In fact, I enjoy doing it, and I don't think it's disrespectful, but I can understand why many do.

[albionmoonlight]

Where did we go so off track that such a basic symbol of citizenship and respect has been discarded?A couple of quick thoughts.
1.) The older generation(s) knew what it meant to sacrifice for America. A lot of them were immigrants. They all lived through WWII. They celebrated their citizenship and respected the ideals of this country because they actually were in danger of losing it. By comparison, after 9/11 the big message in this country was "Don't let them change our way of life. Continue to live just as you were." I don't want to get into a 9/11 debate, but I think that it says something about this country that we can be at war (don't want to get into that debate either) and don't expect it to diminish (or even change) our quality of life one bit. In WWII, people conserved resources because we needed them for the war. Now, our government is assuring us that, no matter what, we will be not have to sacrifice for this war. People, especially younger people, just don't seem to realize that freedom is earned and fought for.

2.) The whole "challenge authority" movement has, I think, been good. Back in the day, we used to believe that kings ruled through the divine right of God and that questioning the power structures in place was the short road to Hell. After lots and lots of modern history (trying to keep this short), we sit where we are now. There is no problem with rattling the cages of those in charge to make sure that they deserve to be there. However, people slip up when they take "challenge authority" to mean that no person or thing is any greater than any other person or thing. Moral relativism, in its extreme forms, leads to bland apathy.

What we need to do is shake our kids up==teach them that there are such things as right and wrong. That your opinion might very well be less valid then my opinion if your opinion is dumb. That the American flag deserves respect because of all of the right things for which it stands. (Or, if they choose to reject it--then make that choice and defend it. Don’t just stand there like some lame ass sarcastic stoner.). As it is, we teach our kids that nothing is better or worse than anything else because (God forbid) someone may be offended if we say otherwise. Not hard to see why they stand around staring blankly when the Anthem is played. They don't believe that it means anything. They really don't seem to beleive that anything means anything.

[CamEdwards]

wow. Good post, albionmoonlight.

I've always felt that 1st and 2nd generation Americans are some of the most patriotic citizens, because they don't take this country for granted. Those of us who have no concept of what our grandparents or great grandparents did to get here, the lives they left behind, the opportunity that was granted them on this soil... I get the feeling a lot of people think America is a nice place to live, but nothing special. I don't know what the cure for that apathy might be.

[QuikSand]

For what it's worth... I'm pretty sure that I was never taught to place my hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played. Perhaps that's an indictment of the educational system, but I think it's simply not that well-known a "rule." (Those may be tantamout to the same thing, I realize)

I am pretty aggressive when it come to following these customs -- when the National Anthem is played, I remove my hat if I'm wearing one, and I face the flag, and I usually sing the anthem to the best of my ability.

Had you quizzed me about this in the absence of internet resources, I probably would have told you that:

-saluting the flag is appropriate for current and perhaps former military personnel

-civilians are obliged to remove headgear and just stand observantly facing the flag

-those placing their hands over their hearts are just getting confused with proper "Pledge of Allegiance" etiquette


Yes, I recognize there's a chicken-and-egg argument in there, but there are probably a fair number of well-meaning people like myself out there who typically seem to be "doing nothing" not out of disrespect, but just out of ignorance.

(And to be honest, I had to look at three or four web sites to be assured that the hand-on-heart is considered apropriate for the national anthem)

[QuikSand]

and what fucking bonehead thought shouting "O" in the anthem was a good idea. Damn Baltimore fans.

And I wholeheartedly agree with this. Pisses me off.

[cthomer5000]

I think playing it everywhere and anywhere kills it's meaning. Do we really need to have it played before sporting events, concerts, etc. ?

[Fritz]

-those placing their hands over their hearts are just getting confused with proper "Pledge of Allegiance" etiquette


In the specific etiquette that I was taught you are correct about removing your cover and facing the flag. I can't think of a time when the national anthem has been played without a flag nearby, so the two do seem to blend. Same etiquette goes for presenting and retiring the flag.

At the same time, the hand over the heart salute would be miscategorized as confusion. It is appropriate to give as a sign of respect.

As far as what you were taught, I find that interesting. We are about the same age, and citizenship was a part of what my public schools did. Since I moved around a lot as a kid (7 schools from K to 12) I have a reasonably broad past to draw on. Each elementary school did something, and the pledge was still in place when I went through high school.

Beyond schools, it was in the community. I recall a box of cereal with flag etiquette on the side. Kid Rock must have eaten a different brand. Scouting, the YMCA, Sunday School, and such all had basic citizenship as one of their core missions.

It seem like we have lost something over the years.

[QuikSand]

In the specific etiquette that I was taught you are correct about removing your cover and facing the flag. I can't think of a time when the national anthem has been played without a flag nearby, so the two do seem to blend. Same etiquette goes for presenting and retiring the flag.

I guess I'm with DMB from above... until today, I would have answered that the hand-over-heart was connected to the actual "pledge" more than the flag. As in, "I place my hand over my heart to add gravity to the words I am saying..."

Seems I was wrong... but I'm sure I have a lot of company.

[Draft Dodger]

United States Codes
Title 36 of the United States Code, Section 301 (former 170), regulates:
(a) Designation: The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing: During a rendition of the national anthem
Conduct during playing

"During a rendition of the national anthem - (1) when the flag is displayed - (A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart; (B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and (C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and (2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.."

[Radii]

I don't think I was ever taught in school anything about taking off my hat and putting my hand over my heart when singing the National Anthem. I think it was a combination of my parents teaching + watching what others did that got me doing that at ball games, etc. I think that if asked I would have said that the hand over heart was simply an additional sign of respect.

Additionally, I did not know until recently(in the last 2-3 years) that one was supposed to turn and face the flag during the anthem. I always just stood up and sang with everyone else. I was never taught or shown that by anyone.

[ahbrady]

I'm with Quiksand. I thought you only put your hand over your heart while saying the pledge.

[Draft Dodger]

I agree with your sentiment, Fritz.

I think it's a combination of the meaning being diluted and the progression of our society. The anthem has become an entertainment exhibition, complete with bastardized lyrics and overdone patriotic choreography. Too often it's a joke.

We also have had generations of separation from our freedom being directly challenged, World War II being the last obvious conflict. Regardless of geo-politics and grand strategy (which is an argument for another thread), the other wars we have fought have had a distance and detachment to them. Add to that the warped view of individual "rights" and the litigious nature of our society, and it all allows Americans, in my opinion, to take their freedoms for granted.

I still get goose bumps when the anthem is done correctly and powerfully. I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.

a terrific post.
my major pet peeve in life is people giving the Anthem the "N-Sync" treatment. To me, that's as insulting as what Roseanne Barr did, if not more. I just want someone to sing the anthem with respect...the way it was written.

I do respectfully put my hand on my heart during the anthem. I believe it is the least I can do in a show of gratitude for others who have sacrificed so much for my freedom. I don't expect others to do the hand on the heart, but I do expect them to stand and remove their hat. People who boo the anthem of any country deserve to be deported.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm with Quiksand. I thought you only put your hand over your heart while saying the pledge.

I admit, I was never sure. I wanted to, but didn't know if it was the right thing to do or not. A couple years ago, I looked it up, and I've proudly been doing it ever since.

[Dawgfan1980]

I am in total agreement with everyone on this thread. Being of a younger age (24) and seeing the continuing decline of society, this is just one more small thing that just angers me. For me, when I am at a sporting event, and I hear the anthem, it pains me to see fans talking to each other, on their cell phones, keeping their hats, pointing to people who are showing proper respect.

Part of the problem is a lack of respect for history. If you ask most people of my generation and younger generations, they don't understand how the raising of the flag at Iwo Jima effected the moral of the troops, they don't understand how it was an honor to march with the colors into battle during battles, and they don't understand that people have died for that flag, and that anthem throughout the years. It sickens me to hear that some people my age can't tell you who fought in WW2, who were the major combantants and who the Allies fought.

As for people booing other anthems, it shows a lack of respect for humanity. I understand if you don't like the Canadian anthem (the only other one we really hear around here), but don't boo it, show it respect, but I don't know if the average American citizen knows what that word means.

[Desnudo]

What they should start with is eliminating playing the anthem at every single sporting event. I'm not sure when this became a requirement. It belittles it.

[Mantle2600]

Great post. I remember seeing tha anthem played at the first football game after 9/11, and it was very moving cause at that time we were worried about our safety and society, and now we have become a little more complacent(sp?) again, its like we need a major war every 20 years or so just to keep our patriotism in check. Sad but true I believe.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Good observation, several good points in the thread, good stuff most all the way 'round.

-- Like some others, I happened to know the etiquette-during-the-anthem stuff pretty well thanks largely to looking it up online a few years ago.

-- Add my growls to those who are irritated by crowds who try to "personalize" the anthem. In Atlanta, it's "Braves" that gets the treatment. And AFAIK, that may have started with the old IHL Atlanta Knights games. Their reaction to "Night" was the first time I ever heard that done here. Pity it seems to have caught on :(

-- I'm happy to report, however, that it is being taught in at least a few places.
My 6 y/o has been taught the various flag, anthem, pledge, etc. behaviors at school since day one of pre-K and is extremely observant of them (has even poked me in the ribs on a couple of occasions when I was slow to react to the presentation of colors). Just one of several reasons I'm happy he's in the private school he's enrolled in.

Jon

[Fritz]

That is part of memorial day is for, be we would rather spend it at picnics and in the sales racks. It has become yet another meaningless 3 day weekend.

[Solecismic]

I was taught that it was rude to cheer the national anthem, kind of in line with the InSync treatment being rude.

In these days of people being invited to do their own renditions, it would be hard to become offended with the cheering, but I think it distracts from the anthem itself.

I'd be happy if they'd stop playing God Bless America during the 7th inning. Enough already.

[The_herd]

I found out over the weekend that there is a whole lot of people that have no idea how to properly display the flag on Memorial Day, including the Air Force SPs here.

-The flag is supposed to be raised fully, then lowered to half mast. Then at noon its supposed to be fully raised for the remainder of the day.

Our flag was left at half mast the entire day, even after pointing out that it should be raised.

[cuervo72]

I was taught that it was rude to cheer the national anthem, kind of in line with the InSync treatment being rude.

In these days of people being invited to do their own renditions, it would be hard to become offended with the cheering, but I think it distracts from the anthem itself.

I'd be happy if they'd stop playing God Bless America during the 7th inning. Enough already.

God Bless America should be left to Kate Smith at Flyers games. ;)

[Lucky Jim]

Good stuff here and I mostly agree. It does seem odd that we have the anthem playing at every sporting event, especially when it has turned into a sort of pregame novelty like throwing out the first pitch or some idiot juggling on a unicycle. I found it to be extraordinarily moving and appropriate initially after 9/11 but, as others, don't feel that same level of emotion anymore when I hear the anthem in the context of a sporting event. I don't see anything particularly wrong with playing it, but in context, I don't see that much wrong with not saluting the flag as well. I think for the most part it gets a quiet respect and a few people talking on cell phones should not be seen as the ultimate degradation of society, just as assholes.

The "O" thing is flat out lame in its own right, but again, in context, it's just sort of low class, not blasphemous. If people were doing that at the WWII dedication there's something wrong with them, and I'd be surprised if they weren't informed one way or another that they should show some respect.

In the end I guess I have a problem with the "damn young people" stuff though. It baffles me how some people (not saying anyone was doing this, just a mini-rant) try to blame some of the problems with our country on my generation. I think the apathy, sense of entitlement, moral shortcomings, intellectual shallowness and everything else pervades our society from top to bottom, and from my experience is at its worst with baby boomers and not "young people." Off-topic but still, one of my big peeves and I thought we were hovering around it.

[kcchief19]

Man, if Fritz was ever on hand for hearing 80,000 fans at Arrowhead stadium cheering "Chiefs" when the the word "brave" is sung during the national anthem, he probably would have nuked the building.

[teh \/1ru§ is kewl!!]

While I don't put my hand over my heart I take off my hat and don't say anything and look at the flag, but I can't honestly say that goes for my friends. I always dislike it when someone is laughing or talking that I know when it is played but there is nothing I say nor anything I could do I don't think.

[Solecismic]

I found out over the weekend that there is a whole lot of people that have no idea how to properly display the flag on Memorial Day, including the Air Force SPs here.

-The flag is supposed to be raised fully, then lowered to half mast. Then at noon its supposed to be fully raised for the remainder of the day.

Our flag was left at half mast the entire day, even after pointing out that it should be raised.

I've tried to remember the flag holidays and put mine out since we moved here, because the guy across the street lost a leg in Korea. He keeps his flag out 24/7/365. But there are a lot of rules, and even he doesn't keep his lit all night.

[Simms]

On the occasions I've flipped to the NHL playoff games in time for the National Anthem, I make a point of removing my hat and paying respect during both anthems (US and Canadian). I am not, however, always inclined to stand, though I do sometimes.

When my kids are in the room, I make a point of telling them to stay still and be quiet while the anthems are being played....not always an easy task with 6 and 4 year olds. :) My daughter does have some experience, though, as she hears Oh, Canada every morning before kindergarten.

[QuikSand]

I do my best to be respectful and not snicker when they sing about "patriot love" in O Canada. Just doing my part.

[Simms]

That's "true patriot love", Quik....big difference. :)

[Jon]

I was taught that it was rude to cheer the national anthem, kind of in line with the InSync treatment being rude.

In these days of people being invited to do their own renditions, it would be hard to become offended with the cheering, but I think it distracts from the anthem itself.

I'd be happy if they'd stop playing God Bless America during the 7th inning. Enough already.

I was taught that you place your hand on your heart and face the flag whenever the anthem is played. But, I am a Navy brat, so that may be where it is coming from. And, despite any concerns I have with any administration, I continue to do so. In fact, I have no problem with people protesting by not standing up, but I think they should be quiet in the process.

As for God Bless America, I think it has run it's course. The Yankees still play it at home games, and it is annoying. However, even though I'm a Yankee fan, I do not believe that it is being played simply for patriotism. Baseball Weekly did a study last year and found that the Yankees scored more than any other team after the top half of the seventh, and scored the most during the bottom of the seventh, if the pitcher that pitched the sixth was still in the game. It tires out the pitcher since he has to wait for not only God Bless America but Take Me Out to the Ballgame as well.

[ice4277]

As someone of a younger generation (I am 26) I had always thought that military personnel saluted the flag during the anthem, not regular civilians. Personally, I don't see the difference between saluting and standing there in respectful silence with hat removed. If it isn't against the law, and it isn't one of the Ten Commandments, I can't see how it really matters much if you are acting in the right spirit of things. However, I do find people shouting out team nicknames or whatnot during the anthem annoying as hell, and it has pissed me off that the last two Pistons playoffs games I've gone to have featured a number of people yelling and screaming throughout the anthem for no apparent reason. Basically, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't disrupt other people, I don't see what the problem is.

[Samdari]

For a while I have been a bit miffed about something. Watching the dedication of the WW2 memorial reminded me of it.

When the National Anthem was being played, and when the colors were being presented/retired almost all of the vets and older people stood and saluted either with the proper hand salute or had over their heart. Most of the younger people just kind of stood their and fidgeted.

Where did we go so off track that such a basic symbol of citizenship and respect has been discarded?

I was taught that unless you are in uniform, it is not proper to salute during the anthem.

I was also taught that unless you are wearing a hat (in which case you remove it and place it over your heart) it was not proper to place your hand over your heart during the anthem.

I was further taught that doing any of the above was improper, and therefore disrespectful, that the proper pose during the anthem for uniformless, hatless people was just to stand and look at the flag (not moving or speaking of course). I am not sure that people have forgotten any basic respect, but, based on this thread there appears to be some confusion as to what is proper.

I actually get annoyed at the people who put their hands over their hearts during the anthem, thinking they are being disrespectful by not knowing the proper protocol.

[Fritz]

If it isn't against the law, and it isn't one of the Ten Commandments, I can't see how it really matters much if you are acting in the right spirit of things.

And here is why I have some real issues when it comes to legislation and behavior. In the absence of law, we are not left with much in the way guidance.

There should be things we do because they are right, because we are citizens, because society has agreed that they are proper. (not talking about flag etiquette here per se) When people who abide by and believe in these unlegislated things have them tossed about, they react with a call for legislation. Hard to blame them.

a side point, I know, and I hope it does not distract from the previous contents of the thread.

[Draft Dodger]

I actually get annoyed at the people who put their hands over their hearts during the anthem, thinking they are being disrespectful by not knowing the proper protocol.

but now you realize you were wrong, right?

[MacroGuru]

You know, the flag respect, is amazing. I also get upset at the disrespect shown the flag anywhere.

Sitting at the age of 29, I was taught hand over heart, hats off, and everything else. But losing friends and family to the battles that have happened overseas, I realize how much more the flag means. And as a student of American History (I say student as I constantly read and digest information in regards to American History) I am amazed at the color guard in combat during the Revolutionary War, Civil War (Yes, on both sides) and others as they risk their lives to keep the flag high, avoid the capture of the flag, or even dropping it to the ground. It was shameful to some who took their command very seriously.

Iwo Jima and the story of the Marines raising the flag still inspires me. The flag to me is a constant reminder of what we have, and how it was earned and protected.

enough of my ramblings.

[WSUCougar]

http://www.collectormall.com/images/IwoFlag.JPG

[sabotai]

I agree with those who have talked about it being played before most events. It's played beforte all sporting events, before graduations, before the flea market opens (not sure about that last one). If people treat it as meaningless, most likely, it's because it's played before (relatively) meaningless things. It's like when kids play violent games and watch violent movies, they become desensatised to violence. This gets played CONSTANTLY. They're desensatised to it.

There should be things we do because they are right, because we are citizens, because society has agreed that they are proper.

That's commie talk!

[Ksyrup]

What they should start with is eliminating playing the anthem at every single sporting event. I'm not sure when this became a requirement. It belittles it.

I found this in an article from a couple of years ago about that basketball player who received so much attention for turning her back during the playing of the Anthem. It's an interesting historical explanation for why we started doing this in the US. As far as national anthems generally, I always assumed that it was done because the original purpose for sporting events, dating waaaaaay back, was to create a nationalistic fervor among a country's population.



"Looking at this controversy, it might be useful to review the history of playing the national anthem at athletic events. First, it is important to note that there was no official national anthem until the 1930s. During World War I, however, President Wilson declared the "Star Spangled Banner" the unofficial national anthem, and the intense display of public patriotism during this period led to it being played on many public occasions.

It is generally accepted that its first appearance during a sporting event was the 1918 World Series (http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/worldseries/1918.html). To demonstrate major league patriotism, baseball teams had the players march in formation during pre-game military drills while carrying bats on their shoulders. During the seventh-inning stretch of game one, when the band spontaneously began to play the "Star Spangled Banner," the Cubs and Red Sox players stood at attention facing the centerfield flag pole. The crowd sang along and applauded when the singing ended.
Given this reaction in Chicago, the "Star Spangled Banner" was played during the seventh-inning stretch for the next two games. When the Series moved to Boston, the great theatrical Red Sox owner Harry Frazee pumped up the show biz: He brought in a band, and the song was played before the start of each game.

When the war ended, the song continued to be played, but only on special occasions when a band was present -- such as opening day, special holidays or the World Series. On opening day in Washington, D.C., it was played before the president of the United States, and local politicians in other cities learned to participate in the events.

The "Star Spangled Banner" was finally declared the official national anthem in 1931. Even though by 1934 some ballparks had public address systems, it still was not played at every game. The coming of war in the late 1930s changed all of that. During the 1939-40 National Hockey League season, the Canadian anthem was played at games in Canadian cities as Canada was already at war. Then the practice spread to Madison Square Garden and from there it was transferred from hockey to baseball.

In 1940, with the fighting underway in earnest and America becoming more conscious of the possibility of war, there was increased talk of the need to hear the national anthem before all baseball games. This was suggested by The Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/) in June, while at the same time the president of the International League called for the anthem to be played in U.S. league cities, as was already being done in Canadian cities. By 1941, the practice of playing the anthem before sporting events had achieved nearly universal status. At some games the pledge of allegiance was added, and, by 1941, "I Am an American Day" became a feature at major league parks.

It would be nice to say that all of this was due to pure patriotic expression, but of course much of it was created by PR-conscious owners who wanted to make sure that no one would question the patriotism of athletes who played games during World War II while others went off to serve their country. Four years of war, followed by the Cold War and the emergence of the American Empire, solidified the practice and made it into a national ritual.

In recent years, the national anthem has lost its patriotic air in most sports venues. It has become an occasion for entertainers to display their talents or lack thereof, fans to create new cheers, and the networks to run commercials. Its symbolic significance has been overshadowed by commercial purposes and public indifference, but it can still rattle the
cages when someone uses it as an occasion for protest.

Whether the practice should continue is doubtful as sporting events have little inherent relationship to patriotism. To try to change this custom in the middle of war fever would, of course, be impossible."

[JeeberD]

I'm with Quiksand. I thought you only put your hand over your heart while saying the pledge.

Ditto. But I certainly remove my hat during the anthem and stand at attention. I absolutely hate idiots who don't have enough respect to at least take off their caps. Who the hell cares if you have a little hat-head?

[ice4277]

And here is why I have some real issues when it comes to legislation and behavior. In the absence of law, we are not left with much in the way guidance.

There should be things we do because they are right, because we are citizens, because society has agreed that they are proper. (not talking about flag etiquette here per se) When people who abide by and believe in these unlegislated things have them tossed about, they react with a call for legislation. Hard to blame them.

a side point, I know, and I hope it does not distract from the previous contents of the thread.
I tend to agree with what you wrote, and reading what I wrote, I may have been misunderstood. I did not mean that people should do whatever they please during the anthem (although there is nothing to stop them from doing so); rather, I think it is possible to pay respects in many different ways. I don't think it matters much if I sit in church and say a prayer or do it while I am sitting in rush-hour traffic; if I am sincere about it, then I think that is the thing that counts. That is what I think about respecting the flag. There is more than one way to do the same thing IMO.

[Fritz]

Ice, as was I writing the above I caught what you said, which is why I paired the quote down. I wasn't so much trying to take you out of context as I was trying to bring up a point.

[BishopMVP]

- I agree with the confusion over hand over heart. At hockey games this year I got in the habit probably from wearing a hat so often, but my mom told me that was only the Pledge. Guess she was wrong.
- I've never heard people interjecting or cheering one word yet, and I hope I never do. I love my sports teams as well, but have some perspective.
- I hate it when people start cheering early. It's like a contest now to see who can yell out "Yeah" first and start clapping. Let the whole song be played douchebag. Under no circumstances should you begin cheering or clapping before at least Land of the Free in the last line.
- I want to smack the author of KSyrup's article upside the head for her editorializing near the end of that article.

[ice4277]

Ice, as was I writing the above I caught what you said, which is why I paired the quote down. I wasn't so much trying to take you out of context as I was trying to bring up a point.
Oh, I know you weren't trying to take me out of context, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page about what I meant :)

[Fritz]

again, its not the anthem you would salute (put your hand over your heart), it is the colors

[Leonidas]

United States Codes
Title 36 of the United States Code, Section 301 (former 170), regulates:
(a) Designation: The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing: During a rendition of the national anthem
Conduct during playing

"During a rendition of the national anthem - (1) when the flag is displayed - (A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart; (B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and (C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and (2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.."

This is interesting because it is not what I was taught in boot camp. I was taught that when not in uniform a military member should come to attention, face in the direction of the flag, and placing your hand over your heart was optional.

The most moving flag experience I can ever recall was while I was in ROTC at Ohio State several years ago. I had the privilege of being allowed to be a part of the detail that carried the flag into the stadium and raise it during the playing of the anthem. This particular season we got to play Notre Dame (back when they were still good with Lou Holtz) for the first time in like 60 years. This was a VERY big deal in Columbus as the two schools had been taunting each other all those years.

For this game the crowd was really hyped, just like an OSU-Michigan game. Our thing was to march into the stadium right behind the band as they march into the script Ohio (the dotting of the I with the tuba thing. We stand at attention holding the flag until the I is dotted, then the band immediately goes into the anthem. So the band is just beside us and starts playing the anthem maybe 20 yards away from our detail. In every other game we can here the band pretty clearly playing the anthem. Not this day, and it wasn't a disrespectful mob causing the problem. It was 95,000 people all singing the anthem together so loudly I could not even hear the band right next to us. While hoisting the flag up I took a quick glance and confirmed for myself that every person I could see in the stands was singing along. It was an emotional experience. I literally had goose bumps all over. I've been to many big time sporting events and have never seen a crowd do that for the anthem. I've never experienced anything like that before or since.

[sabotai]

again, its not the anthem you would salute (put your hand over your heart), it is the colors

Exactly. Whenever I see a hot piece of ass walking on the beach with a red, white and blue bikini...my hand goes over my.....ummm, nevermind.

[PineTar]

I found this (http://www.chicagoblackhawks.com/multimedia/index.cfm?cont_id=172170#) to be the most stirring, patriotic rendition of the anthem ever performed, yet by some peoples standards, would appear disrepectful. I disagree.

[BishopMVP]

again, its not the anthem you would salute (put your hand over your heart), it is the colorsIt appears it is both.United States Codes
Title 36 of the United States Code, Section 301 (former 170), regulates:
...
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.."

[WSUCougar]

I've never experienced anything like that before or since.
Great story, Leonidas. Thanks for sharing it.

[Fritz]

It appears it is both.

would appear so. To be honest though, I can't recall ever hearing the Anthem without seeing a flag.