Go Lakers

[INDalltheway]

I never thought I would say this, but beat those punks... (Really, just beat the shit out of Rasheed Wallace)

[Neuqua]

No way :) I had Sheed as much as anybody but no way I'd want Malone to piggyback his way to a ring.

[cmp]

I love bitter Pacer fans.

[Ksyrup]

Yes, go Lakers, straight to hell.

[Ksyrup]

Funny, we're the punks, but your guy gets the flagrant foul that costs his team the series. Gotcha.

[LionsFan10]

Wow, let the hostilities begin! I don't want the Lakers to win for one reason and one reason only ... it's f***ing boring to watch. Hopefully the combination of Rasheed & Ben Wallace down low will be enough to contain Shaq, although I doubt they will be able to effectively stop him. What I worry about is the back court, Rip Hamilton is a good player but definitely not on Kobe's level and Kobe will probably light him up regularly. Prince should be able to handle 90 yr old Karl Malone and nobody's worried about Gary Payton, stick Billups on him and leave him be.

I'd let Ben & Rasheed rough up Shaq down low and have Prince run at Kobe every chance he got, because to leave Hamilton alone with Kobe will be murder. I hate to say this to you, because it's obvious you're a Pacers fan and I would be rooting for the Pacers too if they had wound up taking the series. However, Detroit is a much better defensive team then the Pacers, the Pistons are the only team that MIGHT take a game from the Lakers this series. Hopefully the "boring, defensive" basketball that the Pistons played against the Pacers will work against the Lakers, but I'm not holding my breath.

[INDalltheway]

Yes I am bitter, and yes, I really don't care. I bet Artest wishes that his foul was a little bit more flagrant, because that wasn't that bad.

I really think the Pistons can and will beat the Lakers. They match up with them better than any other team with the Wallace's. Still I would rather Karl Malone and Gary Payton get their first rings, than ever see Rasheed Wallace happy.

[miami_fan]

Hmmmm......Whom would I rather not see win a NBA Championship? Malone or Rasheed?

[Schmidty]

I am so happy my guys finally got back to the Finals. I've literally watched every Pistons game this season and last, and haven't missed many in the past 15-16 years. I live and die with this team.

I'd trash talk the Pacers and Artest, but I don't give a shit about them anymore. They're history. It's all about the Lakers now. The Pistons have a great chance, but it'll be very tough.

[ahbrady]

I despise Karl Malone. I hated the Lakers before Payton and Malone, but their additions have made them my second least favorite team. I'm a Red Sox fan, so the Yankees have to be first. I do like Derek Fisher. I wish he could play somewhere else, so I could root for him.

[SackAttack]

I dunno, "least favorite" still has positive connotations, like they're your favorites, but not as much as the Red Sox, say.

Shouldn't that be second most-hated, if we're being accurate, here?

[MikeVick7]

I'm on the Pistons bandwagon and I can't stand the Eastern Conference. But if there's one thing I dislike more than the Eastern Conference...it's the Lakers.

Course all of this coming from a disgruntled Wolves fan...

[MrBug708]

LOL

Lakers play a boring style? 69-65 is the final score? You can call it defense, I call it lousy offense.

Wallace x 2 wont stop Shaq and if they do, Malone will just put in the 18 footers, which will make it pretty easy. Wallace and Co couldn't stop Shaq when he was in Portland, why is it any different? Detroit has two PF's in the post, while the Lakers have two HOF's. Detroit plays good defense, no doubt, but that means they'll lose like 82-71 or abouts. They don't have a "Kobe Stopper" or a catch and shoot player. Indiana had the only chance to beat the Lakers and I think they might have taken it to game 7.

Are we gonna see Mrsbuttercup now?

[pennywisesb]

I can't stand the Lakers, so I am officially jumping on the Detroit bandwagon and hoping they can at least take it to 6 games or something. I just don't want to see a sweep or a 5 game series like every other finals series with the lakers. (this coming from a disgruntled Warrior fan--thats right, the WARRIORS, next year is going to be our year!) ;-)

[cmp]

LOL

Lakers play a boring style? 69-65 is the final score? You can call it defense, I call it lousy offense.


I'm pretty sure their style of play wasn't called boring. It's the fact that there expected to win and if they do win it will be the 4th time in 5 years which makes it boring. Having the same team win every year isn't terribly exciting.

[ahbrady]

I dunno, "least favorite" still has positive connotations, like they're your favorites, but not as much as the Red Sox, say.

Shouldn't that be second most-hated, if we're being accurate, here?

Okay, they're my second most-hated.

[MrBug708]

I'm pretty sure their style of play wasn't called boring. It's the fact that there expected to win and if they do win it will be the 4th time in 5 years which makes it boring. Having the same team win every year isn't terribly exciting.


I think you confuse success with boring. You call Jodan's Bulls boring? Duncan's Spurs boring? Thomas's Pistons? Akeem's rockets?

[pennywisesb]

I think you confuse success with boring. You call Jodan's Bulls boring? Duncan's Spurs boring? Thomas's Pistons? Akeem's rockets?
Mullin's Warriors? Oh wait a minute.....

[Neuqua]

I have been saying all season long that I think the top 3 teams in the East stand a very good chance at beating any of the Western Conference teams in the Finals this year, and out of the bunch, I've always felt Detroit had the best shot.

They are so incredibly deep, I am jealous. They play great team defense, they hustle and play hard and I would not mind one bit if they won the championship (outside the fact that I hate Rasheed and Pistons fans at FOFC are almost as obnoxious as the Laker ones.)

Shaq is not the same Shaq that he was when he played against those Blazers a few years back so I don't think that's really a fair comparison. He is still however, the difference from the Lakers and the rest of the league. Kobe can score 30pts every game of the series if he wants, but if Shaq does not have a good game, they are extremely vulnerable.

It brings me great joy to see that Malone has gotten very rusty this posteseason. How many easy layups and putbacks has he missed this season? And in the upcoming series, he is going to have go out to the 3pt line extended to keep up with Rasheed, I like that idea on the Pistons side.

Okur is going to be key in this series I think. If he can hit shots from beyond the arc and stretch out the Laker defense, it'll be a huge boon for the Pistons.

I honestly feel that if the Pistons had one consistent 3pt shooter on the team, I might go all the way to say I wouldn't even be shocked if they ended up winning the Finals, but they do not, and so I still see the Lakers taking the series in 6 games.

[MrBug708]

Remember though, Shaq had to go up against the stronger Center he has ever had to face and those Blazers were WAY more talented then most teams in the league. Remember, they were 6 and a half minutes of chokoffs from beaing the Lakers in 2000.

JErmaine O'Neal is the best post player in the East and the closest thing to a center there. Reggie Miller is still the best Clutch and Shoot 3 guy, which is a Laker weakness. Ron Artest can guard Kobe then anyone the Pistons can send at them.

Pacers were the best shot at an Eastern title. Ah well, that's fine with me.

[korme]

i am inspired, today i watched the bulls' 91 championship video over the lake show, and it was great. lets see the pistons knock the lakers off.

learning to fly but i ain't got wings
comin' down is the hardest thing

[MrBug708]

Shorty, you were what, 5? Did you buy the tape?

[Neuqua]

Come on now Bug, I remember people using the same argument with you and the Dodgers in another thread here. Choose one side :)

[pennywisesb]

Shorty, you were what, 5? Did you buy the tape?

:D

[MrBug708]

Come on now Bug, I remember people using the same argument with you and the Dodgers in another thread here. Choose one side :)

Dodgers won the pennant in 87 I believe, I dont have any memory of that and I was 5....

[MrBug708]

6 on the other hand....

[LionsFan10]

That's correct, I was not calling the Lakers style of play boring, I was calling the whole thing watching them win every year boring. Jordan's Bulls? Yep, they were boring. I'm not going to count the rest of the teams you said, going back to back is different, but winning four out of five years just takes the fun out of watching any basketball when you know in the end, no matter how good your team plays (unless your a Laker fan, of course) it won't matter because the Lakers will win anyway.

If Kobe goes to jail, or to another team through free agency next year then we might have something to talk about, but right now it's not even worth posting about anymore. Like I said, the Pistons (I felt) matched up against the Lakers the best defensivley with Wallace x2 and Prince to handle the fossil known as Karl Malone (who Jordan made a career out of beating in the NBA Finals), as well as help out on Bryant every chance he gets.

But it won't matter, the Pistons will take one or two games from the Lakers and then it'll be the same ol' celebration all over again, with Shaq's big, goon face all over my T.V with his birdman pose that he does ... God I hate that pose.

[bigdawg2003]

go pistons. fuck shaq and fuck karl malone.

sincerely,
disgruntled spurs/rockets fan

EDIT: I hate those guys so much they each deserve their own obscenity

[pennywisesb]

Really, the only thing that I looked forward to with each Laker championship was Mark Madsen's little dance he would do that looked completely ridiculous....Unfortunately with him going to the Wolves this year, I won't be able to see it and so there is absolutely nothing that I will enjoy watching about another Laker championship. :mad:

[kingfc22]

The Pistons are going to have their asses handed to them. Plain and simple. If you can't shoot, you can't score and you certainly are not going to beat Shaq, Kobe and the Lakers.

[korme]

Shorty, you were what, 5? Did you buy the tape?
hey i still remembered the video, i remembered like every part. i used to watch that damn video atleast once a week before going to kindergarten, it's crazy that i still remembered so much of it.

good times.. :)

[MrBug708]

Fair enough. Being in LA, we get to see the local showings of the game, it's always mentioned on ESPN (no doubt a top 15 moment) and it's just one awesome HR.

[Sharpieman]

Yep it's pretty much over. Yet it was pretty much over from the start of the season. Congrats to the Lakers on buying a Championship.

[ice4277]

I am very happy the Pistons have made it to the Finals, and I am definitely enjoying this moment because I don't think there will be many more this season. As much as I hate to say it, I don't think anybody could have touched the Lakers this postseason. Unless something drastic happens like Shaq gets hurt or Kobe can't play due to the court case, I see the Lakers beating the good guys in six.

Next year is the year and Eastern team wins the Finals.

[Vince]

Yep it's pretty much over. Yet it was pretty much over from the start of the season. Congrats to the Lakers on buying a Championship.
Not sure how accurate that is...Payton and Malone both took pay cuts to play for the Lakers.

[Ksyrup]

Dodgers won the pennant in 87 I believe, I dont have any memory of that and I was 5....
1988, actually.

[Radii]

First time in my life I've ever rooted for the Pistons is in this postseason. Passing, defense, it's almost like good basketball! And I hate Karl Malone :)

[sachmo71]

Lakers, you are boring. Win a title if you must, but go away.

[Sharpieman]

Not sure how accurate that is...Payton and Malone both took pay cuts to play for the Lakers.
They bought it value wise. The 94 Niners bought they're players at a reduced cost, but it was still buying a championship.

[Ksyrup]

In the age of free agency, isn't pretty much every championship bought to some extent? Those who don't win it all, just purchased the wrong parts.

[sachmo71]

In the age of free agency, isn't pretty much every championship bought to some extent? Those who don't win it all, just purchased the wrong parts.

See Mavericks, Dallas.

[Ksyrup]

I was particularly thinking of the 1993 Dolphins. I think that was the team that amassed 20+ former 1st round picks, and they didn't even make the playoffs. I don't see anyone bitching because they "bought" themselves a mediocre team.

Well, except Kodos.

[MrBug708]

1988, actually.

I thought the pennant was for the NLCS and ALCS, hence the Giants announcer screaming "The Giants win the Pennant, the Giants win the Pennant."

[Sharpieman]

In the age of free agency, isn't pretty much every championship bought to some extent? Those who don't win it all, just purchased the wrong parts.
I guess you could say that. But considering the fact that the Lakers added 2 HOF's this year, doesn't it seem like it's taken the excitement out of the NBA.

Wow, I almost started laughing when typing excitement and NBA in the same sentence.

[rexallllsc]

Yep it's pretty much over. Yet it was pretty much over from the start of the season. Congrats to the Lakers on buying a Championship.

Do you realize how insane that statement is?

http://www.insidehoops.com/nbasalaries.shtml

RANK TEAM TOTAL SALARY
1) New York Knicks $94.5 million
2) Portland Trail Blazers $84.3
3) Dallas Mavericks $78.6
4) Minnesota Timberwolves $72.4
5) Sacramento Kings $69.5
6) Los Angeles Lakers $64.8


The Lakers are FIFTH in the Western Conference in salary.

[LionsFan10]

Nah, they certianly did not "buy" a championship. They just went out and found two guys so desperate for a ring that they were willing to take huge pay cuts just to be on a winning team. Malone had his chances against Jordan's Bulls back in the late '90's and it was Malone himself who gave up the game by letting Jordan strip the ball from him in the post.

It isn't L.A's fault that Orlando let Shaq walk without so much as a draft pick in return, and I don't care who your favorite team is, you would be happy if you had Shaq coming to play in your home stadium. Kobe was a draft pick, so again you can't fault L.A, they made a good pick. Two teams passed on Jordan before the Bulls grabbed him third, and I bet a lot of fans are pretty upset that they wound up with Sam Bowie (I believe he was taken second) instead of his Airness.

So, to me it isn't about the Lakers buying a championship. They just happened to find two guys who were willing to give everything up for their ring, sellouts really. They were going to be HOF players no matter if they had won a championship or not.

[MrBug708]

Nah, they certianly did not "buy" a championship. They just went out and found two guys so desperate for a ring that they were willing to take huge pay cuts just to be on a winning team. Malone had his chances against Jordan's Bulls back in the late '90's and it was Malone himself who gave up the game by letting Jordan strip the ball from him in the post.

It isn't L.A's fault that Orlando let Shaq walk without so much as a draft pick in return, and I don't care who your favorite team is, you would be happy if you had Shaq coming to play in your home stadium. Kobe was a draft pick, so again you can't fault L.A, they made a good pick. Two teams passed on Jordan before the Bulls grabbed him third, and I bet a lot of fans are pretty upset that they wound up with Sam Bowie (I believe he was taken second) instead of his Airness.

So, to me it isn't about the Lakers buying a championship. They just happened to find two guys who were willing to give everything up for their ring, sellouts really. They were going to be HOF players no matter if they had won a championship or not.

Wow, those are incredible statements. Malone "Gave up" when he was stripped? Everyone in the NBA, HOF'ers included, have had the ball stolen from them.

When Shaq came to LA, it was a huge deal, but it's not like Los Angeles "out bid" anyone. Shaq wanted to be a media Icon and the fact that we had Jerry West still, made it a no brainer. We also didn't draft Kobe Bryant. We traded Vlade Divac, who was expendable with the acquiring of Shaq, for the rights to Kobe Bryant.

People always talk about how players like A-Rod are selfish and want money more then when they win, yet we have hypocrits who call people "sell outs" when they sacrifice over 10 million dollars apiece to play for a title.

Sellouts indeed!

[MrBug708]

I guess you could say that. But considering the fact that the Lakers added 2 HOF's this year, doesn't it seem like it's taken the excitement out of the NBA.

Wow, I almost started laughing when typing excitement and NBA in the same sentence.

If you don't like the NBA and it's current level, why areyou participating in a thread which you aren't adding anything to? I mean, lots of people don't like the NBA and aren't saying anything. Or is that just part of your NorCal pysche?

[Suicane75]

Lakers will finish with a better record than the Dodgers.........I got nothin.

[MrBug708]

I'm hoping the Dodgers win more then 65 games...

[Bad-example]

...why areyou participating in a thread which you aren't adding anything to?


:eek: :eek:


That is one :eek: for the grammar, and one :eek: for the irony.

[MrBug708]

So my grammar on a message board isn't on the college level, who gives rip!?!

As for not adding anything he's not a Lakers fan, much less an NBA fan it seems and thinks its boring. Since he doesn't care, just wondering what's being added that we couldn't have guessed....

[Noop]

So my grammar on a message board isn't on the college level, who gives rip!?!

As for not adding anything he's not a Lakers fan, much less an NBA fan it seems and thinks its boring. Since he doesn't care, just wondering what's being added that we couldn't have guessed....
Actually most of these folks with college degrees give a rip. They happen to be real anal about how you type/write your sentences.

[MrBug708]

*shrugs*

Not my problem really. I type fast and I don't go back to spell check. It's the way it goes....

[LionsFan10]

Wow, those are incredible statements. Malone "Gave up" when he was stripped? Everyone in the NBA, HOF'ers included, have had the ball stolen from them.

When Shaq came to LA, it was a huge deal, but it's not like Los Angeles "out bid" anyone. Shaq wanted to be a media Icon and the fact that we had Jerry West still, made it a no brainer. We also didn't draft Kobe Bryant. We traded Vlade Divac, who was expendable with the acquiring of Shaq, for the rights to Kobe Bryant.

People always talk about how players like A-Rod are selfish and want money more then when they win, yet we have hypocrits who call people "sell outs" when they sacrifice over 10 million dollars apiece to play for a title.

Sellouts indeed!

True, but I'm not saying he gave up as in "oh man, I can't win anymore ... I'll just go play for the best team in the NBA." I mean he blew his chance by getting it stripped from him, all he had to do was hold onto it while the clock ran out and he blew it.

Again, I never said it was a big deal. Shaq walked, L.A grabbed him no big deal anyone who picked up Shaq in that manner wouldn't complain, I'm not blamming L.A for grabbing one of the most dominant centers in the league. Okay, Kobe was traded for on draft day or close to draft day, whatever.

And yes, working with a team like the Jazz or Sonics for your entire career when people like John Stockton retire without a ring and then, saying "oh, I'll just go play for a great team, then" is selling out. What A-Rod did is the exact same thing, demanding every dollar in the state of Texas to play for a mediocre team then, instead of sticking around and fighting it out when players like Jordan have, once he realized he might never win his championship in Texas he jumped over to an all star team like the Yankees just so he can win one, taking a pay cut so you can play for a team that was (probably) going to win with or without you anyway isn't special in my book. Karl Malone & Gary Payton did the exact same thing. It's like an indie band or film group saying "we'll never go corporate, we'll make it on our own!" and then the minute they come calling, someone turns their back on the rest of the gang so they can have all the glory, fame or money as the case may be.

What Malone did wasn't an earned championship he just latched onto a team that was on the way to a title anyway, big deal he did nothing special. Same with Gary Payton, so they both threw away ending great careers in Utah or Seattle so they can go out saying "I've got a ring, too." Karl and Gary's ring won't be memorable, that's for sure all they did was hang around a great team while people like Shaq & Kobe won it for them.

[Suicane75]

I'm hoping the Dodgers win more then 65 games...


It's all about winning percentage baby, all about winning percentage.....I still got nothin.

[MrBug708]

Well, Malone could have went to Dallas and still would have helped them try to win a title, but he opted to play with a team who had a Center. he gave it his all to Utah.

By your def, Ray Borque is a sellout too?

[rexallllsc]

In a day where money is everything, why are guys who just want to win getting ripped?

[sovereignstar]

In a day where money is everything, why are guys who just want to win getting ripped?
Cause Karl Malone was part of the N.W.O.

[Bad-example]

*shrugs*

Not my problem really. I type fast and I don't go back to spell check. It's the way it goes....

Well, you post here intending for your thoughts to be read by others. If you can't be bothered to at least keep the major mistakes to a minimum, then the natural conclusion is you are too lazy or too ignorant to get it right. I guess if you don't mind fostering either image (or both) I guess more power to you.

[Suicane75]

Cause Karl Malone was part of the N.W.O.


No No No, Dennis Rodman was NWO. Karl Malone was WCW thru and thru, he and Jay Leno fought for WCW against the NWO.
Man, it's no wonder WCW went under.

[Deattribution]

In a day where money is everything, why are guys who just want to win getting ripped?


A guy who has been making 20 million a year for the past 8 or so years isn't exactly the leading canidate for 'I just want to win'. Besides, if he 'just wanted to win' why didn't he just stay with his current team with a lesser salary so they could add depth?

He ran to the team that had the best chance of winning a championship, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with just wanting to win.

If he just wanted to win, he'd of stayed in Utah, because they were already successful, just not elite.

It has to do with I want a ring before I retire, so let me go play for the Lakers, even If I leave my promising team. Who nearly made the playoffs without Karl 'I just want a ring now that I have 100+ million, cause I'm a nice guy who doesn't care about money' Malone.

If he'd (Malone) of joined the Spurs along with Gary Payton and they swept the Lakers, you'd be crying the same story, so quit juggling thier jockstraps.

The Lakers will more than likely win, everyone in the media will kiss thier ass for the next off season, and all the fans of any other team will suffer in the process as the Laker bandwagon grows. The only insane comments thus far has been the ones by you, where you try to act so oblivious to the actual facts.

They are only suddenly such nice guys because they're playing for your team. Which is fine, but geeze, give the ass kissing a break.

[Ksyrup]

I guess you could say that. But considering the fact that the Lakers added 2 HOF's this year, doesn't it seem like it's taken the excitement out of the NBA.
It would take quite a lot to take the excrement out of the current NBA.

[LionsFan10]

A guy who has been making 20 million a year for the past 8 or so years isn't exactly the leading canidate for 'I just want to win'. Besides, if he 'just wanted to win' why didn't he just stay with his current team with a lesser salary so they could add depth?

He ran to the team that had the best chance of winning a championship, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with just wanting to win.

If he just wanted to win, he'd of stayed in Utah, because they were already successful, just not elite.

It has to do with I want a ring before I retire, so let me go play for the Lakers, even If I leave my promising team. Who nearly made the playoffs without Karl 'I just want a ring now that I have 100+ million, cause I'm a nice guy who doesn't care about money' Malone.

If he'd (Malone) of joined the Spurs along with Gary Payton and they swept the Lakers, you'd be crying the same story, so quit juggling thier jockstraps.

The Lakers will more than likely win, everyone in the media will kiss thier ass for the next off season, and all the fans of any other team will suffer in the process as the Laker bandwagon grows. The only insane comments thus far has been the ones by you, where you try to act so oblivious to the actual facts.

They are only suddenly such nice guys because they're playing for your team. Which is fine, but geeze, give the ass kissing a break.

My point EXACTLY! Only much better worded. :)

[heybrad]

I dont think you guys need to worry about it too much. Karl Malone will not be remembered as the guy who won a title with the Lakers. When you think of guys who won titles you think of Magic, Jordan, Bird.... Karl Malone will be remembered as a great scorer and PF. This (hopefully) championship will be a small note in his NBA bio.

[MrBug708]

Well, you post here intending for your thoughts to be read by others. If you can't be bothered to at least keep the major mistakes to a minimum, then the natural conclusion is you are too lazy or too ignorant to get it right. I guess if you don't mind fostering either image (or both) I guess more power to you.

I'm sorry if a comma is misplaced, or I use then instead of than. Ift hat's how you label people, so be it. goes to show how much I should value your own opinion. I'm not trying to impress anyone on here. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here so for that, I'm sorry. Call the grammar police for all I care.

[Bad-example]

I'm sorry if a comma is misplaced, or I use then instead of than. Ift hat's how you label people, so be it. goes to show how much I should value your own opinion. I'm not trying to impress anyone on here. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here so for that, I'm sorry. Call the grammar police for all I care.

Apology accepted.

I didn't label you. All I did was point out how your repeatedly poor grammar makes you appear to others.

[haji1]

Cassell and Spreewell, damn sellouts. They could have stayed put too.

I can't believe you find fault with two guys at the end of their careeres trying to be a part of something special. Is wanting to win a ring wrong? Should they have just bypassed the opportunity to stay stuck in mediocrity? Would that have made you repspect them more? It would have been stupid if you aske me. How many athletes always have an asterik by their name becasue they never won the ring? This will get that monkey removed from them.

Utah did not want Karl anymore, they were rebuilding and he would have impeded the process. And Karl has been a huge part of the Lakers run this post-season adn will be a big key in the campionship series. He guarded Garnett and Duncan and did a great job on them. The Lakers do not beat the Spurs without karl. He will have sheed in the finals and will need to do the same kind of job on him for the Lakers to pull it out. If the Lakers win the title, Karl will have earned his ring. Will he have been the main, man? No. But he will have been an important piece of the puzzle.

BTW excuse the spelling and grammatical errors. :)

[LionsFan10]

Utah did not want Karl anymore, they were rebuilding and he would have impeded the process. And Karl has been a huge part of the Lakers run this post-season adn will be a big key in the campionship series. He guarded Garnett and Duncan and did a great job on them. The Lakers do not beat the Spurs without karl. He will have sheed in the finals and will need to do the same kind of job on him for the Lakers to pull it out. If the Lakers win the title, Karl will have earned his ring. Will he have been the main, man? No. But he will have been an important piece of the puzzle.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Are you kidding me, he played good defense against Kevin Garnett? Please take that back. Garnett and Duncan both scored all over Karl Malone with consistancy, just because the Spurs/Timberwolves did not advance does not mean Karl Malone played well, the only thing Karl Malone does well is play dirty and I don't say that just because he's a Laker, he's been a dirty son of a bitch from the beginning. He just happened to be on the right team. Kevin Garnett averaged 23 points per game against Karl Malone's "good" defense, and we're not even counting the numerous double teams Kevin had to work through. Tim Duncan is right behind Kevin Garnett, he averaged 20 points per game against Malone's "stellar" defense, staggering.

Cassell and Spreewell, damn sellouts. They could have stayed put too.

I can't believe you find fault with two guys at the end of their careeres trying to be a part of something special. Is wanting to win a ring wrong? Should they have just bypassed the opportunity to stay stuck in mediocrity? Would that have made you repspect them more? It would have been stupid if you aske me. How many athletes always have an asterik by their name becasue they never won the ring? This will get that monkey removed from them.

That's exactly the point, two guys who are eating roster space trying to piggyback their way to an NBA Championship. Gary Payton and Karl Malone have been and always would've been recognized as HOF players, and IIRC Karl Malone is a top 50 player too. Plenty of players have hung it up without an NBA title and still enjoy the fame and recognition of being great NBA players, ring or not. John Stockton is one of them, I believe. If Karl Malone and Gary Payton hadn't gone to the Lakers, whom everyone knew was going to win the title anyway it'd be a lot different, yes. And Cassell isn't a sellout, he was traded to the Timberwolves for Joe Smith and Anthony Peeler, kind of hard to sellout when you don't really have a choice, same with Spreewell ... he was part of a four team deal.

In the end nothing is wrong with wanting to win, but when you are 40 yrs old and just riding a good teams coattails to an NBA title so you can retire the next year then I find it a bit hard to say "wow, he really earned that one."

[MrBug708]

Wouldn't you say that holding Kevin Garnett to 23 points and Tim Duncan to only 20 points (including a single digit scoring game) is mighty fine defense for a 4o year old?

Like I said, what makes him any different then Ray Borque?

[Deattribution]

Like I said, what makes him any different then Ray Borque?


Well, for one, Ray Borque played in the NHL, and we're talking about the NBA.

Secondly, We're talking about Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Third, I haven't seen anybody say I love Ray Borque but I hate what Karl and GP are doing.

So what about Ray Borque is a moot question.


I can't believe you find fault with two guys at the end of their careeres trying to be a part of something special. Is wanting to win a ring wrong? Should they have just bypassed the opportunity to stay stuck in mediocrity? Would that have made you repspect them more? It would have been stupid if you aske me. How many athletes always have an asterik by their name becasue they never won the ring? This will get that monkey removed from them.[/

Sure him and his 20 MILLION DOLLAR SALARY, would have impeded the process, but at 1.5 million? Utah would of kept him in a heartbeat... Heck, They'd of probably kept him at 5.

Anyone could have done what Malone has done thus far, holding Duncan and Garnett to 20p (average) a game, is not a revelation. I'm not even sure you could call that 'holding', Neither Garnett or Duncan have averaged over 25 or so in the post season.

Malone is in no way an important piece of the puzzle, he's just a 40 year old man doing what he can to get his ring and retire.

I can't believe you find fault with two guys at the end of their careeres trying to be a part of something special. Is wanting to win a ring wrong? Should they have just bypassed the opportunity to stay stuck in mediocrity? Would that have made you repspect them more? It would have been stupid if you aske me. How many athletes always have an asterik by their name becasue they never won the ring? This will get that monkey removed from them.[/

The fact that you called Karl Malone's career thus far mediore says everything anyone needs to know.

[Lucky Jim]

Lakers in 5

[heybrad]

Malone is in no way an important piece of the puzzle, he's just a 40 year old man doing what he can to get his ring and retire.

Not sure how much you've watched the Lakers over the past few years. The PF position was probaby their weakest spot on the floor. Karl Malone is an extremely important piece to the Lakers. Or are you saying the Lakers would be in the same position they are now if they still had Samaki Walker?

[heybrad]

Oh yea.. and my prediction.

Lakers in 6.

They will give a half assed effort in at least on of the games which will extend the series.

[rkmsuf]

Not sure how much you've watched the Lakers over the past few years. The PF position was probaby their weakest spot on the floor. Karl Malone is an extremely important piece to the Lakers. Or are you saying the Lakers would be in the same position they are now if they still had Samaki Walker?

I would second that. Malone has been way more valuable than Payton if you want to compare newcomers.

Bottom line is that when that team asserts itself nobody can beat them. I'm certainly no great Laker fan but that's just the way it is.

[LionsFan10]

I don't see how a guy who's just trying to win his ring and retire is considered an "extremely important piece" to this Laker team. Weren't they doing just fine without Karl Malone, I mean after all they did win three straight titles.

A man who is just trying to win a championship before he retires isn't "extremely important." Shaq is extremely important, Kobe Bryant is extremely important, Karl Malone is just riding along with an already great basketball team. He's old, and he can't move quickly enough anymore. Sit down and make room for somebody else to play old man. More important than Payton? Sure, but not by much.

[Deattribution]

Not sure how much you've watched the Lakers over the past few years. The PF position was probaby their weakest spot on the floor. Karl Malone is an extremely important piece to the Lakers. Or are you saying the Lakers would be in the same position they are now if they still had Samaki Walker?


So weak they won 3 consectutive NBA championships, and the main reason they didn't compete more last year wasn't a lack of talent, but a lack of effort.

Samaki Walker could of been playing PF this year, and as long as Kobe and Shaq bring thier A game, they win.

If they honestly needed Malone and Payton to win this year, then they are not a dynasty. They have two of the most dominating players in the game, yet they still need two aging HOF'ers to come help them win? One who is over the hill, the other who hates the offense and practically refuses to shoot.

[heybrad]

Lakers record with Karl Malone in the lineup: 34-9
Lakers record without Karl Malone in the lineup: 22-17

Draw your own conclusion. Wait, dont bother. I'm sure it had nothing to do with him :rolleyes:

[rkmsuf]

Malone's rebounding and shooting is far superior to anything the Lakers had last year. Look at the stats.

[Deattribution]

Okay, no problem, If that's the argument we'll go along with..

So then the conclusion is that the Lakers, Kobe and Shaq, the 'supposedly' best two players in the game, The Dynasty, America's Team, the We can't be Beat team .... Putting aside what I said earlier... Needed Karl Malone, and Gary Payton to get this far, because they couldn't win again without help from more superior talent. So, they brought in Malone and GP, cemeting (thus buying) an NBA championship. (atleast a western conference championship so far).

Congratulations?

[rexallllsc]

Okay, no problem, If that's the argument we'll go along with..

So then the conclusion is that the Lakers, Kobe and Shaq, the 'supposedly' best two players in the game, The Dynasty, America's Team, the We can't be Beat team .... Putting aside what I said earlier... Needed Karl Malone, and Gary Payton to get this far, because they couldn't win again without help from more superior talent. So, they brought in Malone and GP, cemeting (thus buying) an NBA championship. (atleast a western conference championship so far).

Congratulations?

What a joke. I think I already pointed out that FOUR Western Conf. teams have higher payrolls than the Lakers. Portland, Dallas, Sacto, and Minnesota.

Buying a championship? Puh-lease!

[Deattribution]

What a joke. I think I already pointed out that FOUR Western Conf. teams have higher payrolls than the Lakers. Portland, Dallas, Sacto, and Minnesota.

Buying a championship? Puh-lease!


And your point is? They only have higher payrolls because of previous already existing salaries that are escalating... Not to mention, I think I already pointed out had Malone and GP taken thier actual salaries without the massive pay cuts, they'd be near 100 million in payroll, which wasn't possible.

[MrBug708]

Jerry Buss is cheap. If the Lakers didn't make as much money in profit that they do, we wouldn't be even 6th on the payroll list...

[rexallllsc]

And your point is? They only have higher payrolls because of previous already existing salaries that are escalating... Not to mention, I think I already pointed out had Malone and GP taken thier actual salaries without the massive pay cuts, they'd be near 100 million in payroll, which wasn't possible.

MY POINT IS THEYRE NOT BUYING A CHAMPIONSHIP. Do you think the Lakers don't have "escalating" contracts? Shaq is making 26.5 mil., and Kobe is making 13.5 mil., which is over half of the teams total salary.

But yeah, they're BUYING a championship.

Get real.

[Deattribution]

MY POINT IS THEYRE NOT BUYING A CHAMPIONSHIP. Do you think the Lakers don't have "escalating" contracts? Shaq is making 26.5 mil., and Kobe is making 13.5 mil., which is over half of the teams total salary.

But yeah, they're BUYING a championship.

Get real.


Anyone seen that movie Big Trouble? I think it was, with Tim Allen.... they have a part in there about the radio station, the radio host says Gator (flordia) fans are too afraid to call in, so they get a caller who is a Gator fan, who says I'm a Gator fan, and I'm calling... but has nothing to say with any purpose, just to say he is calling.......

I'm not sure if repeating yourself several times without actually reading what I am saying is really gonna help much rexallllsc, but I'm certain you will try.

Not to mention I have no idea how what you're saying has any relevance to the Lakers buying a championship.

Kobe and Shaq could be making 1 billion apiece, it makes no difference. They still went out and purchased Karl Malone and Gary Payton. No matter who is getting paid what.

[rkmsuf]

Okay, no problem, If that's the argument we'll go along with..

So then the conclusion is that the Lakers, Kobe and Shaq, the 'supposedly' best two players in the game, The Dynasty, America's Team, the We can't be Beat team .... Putting aside what I said earlier... Needed Karl Malone, and Gary Payton to get this far, because they couldn't win again without help from more superior talent. So, they brought in Malone and GP, cemeting (thus buying) an NBA championship. (atleast a western conference championship so far).

Congratulations?

I don't get the knock. Kobe and Shaq are arguably the two best players...so.

What's wrong with bringing in as much talent as you can? What the 86 Celtics should have an asterick because the stooped to the level of bringing in Walton who played an important role? Come on now...

Is 4 out of 5 titles enough or what is the number that validates them in your mind?

[Ksyrup]

Anyone seen that movie Big Trouble? I think it was, with Tim Allen....
Some of the arguments and lines of reasoning in this thread are head-scratchers. And then you top it off by referring to a Tim Allen movie, and not even an animated movie, but a real one? You're not doing yourself any favors. :)

[Deattribution]

I don't get the knock. Kobe and Shaq are arguably the two best players...so.

What's wrong with bringing in as much talent as you can? What the 86 Celtics should have an asterick because the stooped to the level of bringing in Walton who played an important role? Come on now...

Is 4 out of 5 titles enough or what is the number that validates them in your mind?


The point is either they are two of the best players in the league, and thus able to win a championship (again) on there own..... Which means Malone and GP are riding a championship that could be won without them.

OR

They are two great players who need help from two aging HOF'ers to win (again). which sounds insane, but basically what people who are arguing that they are helping so much are saying.

Stock pile talent all you want, Sign anyone you want, but facts are facts, you can't have it both ways. Either they could do it without Malone and GP, or they couldn't. If they can't, are they really two of the best in the league?

[rexallllsc]

Kobe and Shaq could be making 1 billion apiece, it makes no difference. They still went out and purchased Karl Malone and Gary Payton. No matter who is getting paid what.

They didn't "purchase" them...Malone and Payton decided to play for the Lakers.

[Ksyrup]

The They are two great players who need help from two aging HOF'ers to win (again). which sounds insane, but basically what people who are arguing that they are helping so much are saying.That seems to be what the numbers say, at least with respect to Malone.

I don't see what the big deal is. Players in all sports do this all the time. Malone did Utah a favor, in my book. He certainly isn't part of any team's - even LA's - future. Why eat cap space so that you can retire "in dignity" with your team that's going nowhere. And don't give me that Utah is a promising team - how many people picked them to win even 20 games this year? That was a complete surprise. They had Clippers written all over them.

Guys play on a championship team, and they win a ring. There's no "legitimate" or "not legitimate" about it. Is your next argument going to be that some guy signed mid-way through the season as bench-filler (or called up from AAA, etc.) shouldn't get a ring because they "lucked" into it?

[heybrad]

This is just stupid. Could Tim Duncan do it without Tony Parker and Manu Gnobilli? He's one of the best players in the league. Could Jordan and Pippen have done it without Dennis Rodman or Ho Grant? They were two of the greatest players of their time. Every team has role players. Karl Malone has filled a role on this team.

According to you Karl Malone sucks anyway, right? Doesnt that make what Shaq and Kobe that much greater (based on your argument).

Every team has role players. Role players are extremely important to championship teams. Karl Malone is an excellent role player for the Lakers. He knows his roles (rebounding, defense, hit the occasional jumper) and plays it well. You seem to have this delusion that all you need are 2 great players and 10 scrubs and you should win a title.

[rkmsuf]

The point is either they are two of the best players in the league, and thus able to win a championship (again) on there own..... Which means Malone and GP are riding a championship that could be won without them.

OR

They are two great players who need help from two aging HOF'ers to win (again). which sounds insane, but basically what people who are arguing that they are helping so much are saying.

Stock pile talent all you want, Sign anyone you want, but facts are facts, you can't have it both ways. Either they could do it without Malone and GP, or they couldn't. If they can't, are they really two of the best in the league?

What happened to the 3 other titles? And they are the best tandem in the league.

[Suicane75]

What happened to the 3 other titles? And they are the best tandem in the league.

They bought Horace Grant which guaranteed them the title.

[Ksyrup]

They were freaking free agents!!! Perhaps you've heard of free agency?! By your rationale, the Spurs attempted to "buy" a championship by re-signing Tim Duncan. If the Astros win the World Series (OK, just win a playoff series), have they "bought" their success by signing Pettitte and Clemens?

Of course they have! That's what sports franchises do now that they are all out of the middle ages. Join us in the 21st century, please.

Anyway, you've completely lost me on how a couple of aging guys who are no longer elite, go-to players in the league, and who, by pretty much every estimation, were no longer integral to their teams' futures, are somehow bad guys for leaving when their contracts expired to join a team with a legitimate shot at winning a championship. And how that's different from the dozens of professional athletes who do the same thing every year.

[rkmsuf]

They bought Horace Grant which guaranteed them the title.

If anything they were attempting to throw it buy signing him.

[Deattribution]

This is just stupid. Could Tim Duncan do it without Tony Parker and Manu Gnobilli? He's one of the best players in the league. Could Jordan and Pippen have done it without Dennis Rodman or Ho Grant? They were two of the greatest players of their time. Every team has role players. Karl Malone has filled a role on this team.

According to you Karl Malone sucks anyway, right? Doesnt that make what Shaq and Kobe that much greater (based on your argument).

Every team has role players. Role players are extremely important to championship teams. Karl Malone is an excellent role player for the Lakers. He knows his roles (rebounding, defense, hit the occasional jumper) and plays it well. You seem to have this delusion that all you need are 2 great players and 10 scrubs and you should win a title.


Who are the great role players LA had to win the there last 3 championships?

Aside from Robert Horry, is there anyone they don't STILL have? Not to mention additions they have made via Draft.

My point isn't Malone sucks, it's that they could have done it without him if they are as great as you Lakers fans praise Kobe and Shaq to be.

And there isn't anything wrong with two guys wanting to win a championship, Just when they join the team with already the best chances of winning, and state 'I want to win a championship, so I am gonna play for the Lakers' (or just about), it's funny.

Almost as funny as getting you Laker fans riled up.

In the end, it's all personal opinion... You guys still think Kobe and Shaq are basketball gods, and I still think they bought a championship. Malone and GP wanted to come to LA, duh, but I've never seen a player join a team via free agency he didn't want to play for....

[rkmsuf]

Who are the great role players LA had to win the there last 3 championships?

Aside from Robert Horry, is there anyone they don't STILL have? Not to mention additions they have made via Draft.

My point isn't Malone sucks, it's that they could have done it without him if they are as great as you Lakers fans praise Kobe and Shaq to be.

And there isn't anything wrong with two guys wanting to win a championship, Just when they join the team with already the best chances of winning, and state 'I want to win a championship, so I am gonna play for the Lakers' (or just about), it's funny.

Almost as funny as getting you Laker fans riled up.

In the end, it's all personal opinion... You guys still think Kobe and Shaq are basketball gods, and I still think they bought a championship. Malone and GP wanted to come to LA, duh, but I've never seen a player join a team via free agency he didn't want to play for....

Well from a non-Laker fan perspective (Celtic fan, gasp) I can't see how you can say that Kobe and Shaq aren't two out of the top 5 in the league and arguably the top 2.

I'm not pleased with a Laker run but come on, you have to give these guys credit.

[Deattribution]

Well from a non-Laker fan perspective (Celtic fan, gasp) I can't see how you can say that Kobe and Shaq aren't two out of the top 5 in the league and arguably the top 2.

I'm not pleased with a Laker run but come on, you have to give these guys credit.

Oh, certainly... They are top 5... I am not saying Kobe and Shaq suck... I am just not agreeing with them being the two greatest players ever or anything crazy, as some would like you to believe. They don't show up enough (Shaq mostly now days) to be the two best.

But that's a whole different debate I am not getting into.

[druez]

Oh, certainly... They are top 5... I am not saying Kobe and Shaq suck... I am just not agreeing with them being the two greatest players ever or anything crazy, as some would like you to believe. They don't show up enough (Shaq mostly now days) to be the two best.

But that's a whole different debate I am not getting into.

Is Kobe even the best at his position?

Shaq probably is but he still doesn't have great basketball skills and he takes weeks off at a time.

[rexallllsc]

Aside from Robert Horry, is there anyone they don't STILL have? Not to mention additions they have made via Draft.

Madsen, Shaw

Fox is getting old.

The Lakers needed a PF. They got Malone. End of story.

[rexallllsc]

Is Kobe even the best at his position?

Yes.

[rexallllsc]

Oh, certainly... They are top 5... I am not saying Kobe and Shaq suck... I am just not agreeing with them being the two greatest players ever or anything crazy, as some would like you to believe. They don't show up enough (Shaq mostly now days) to be the two best.

You sound like a disgruntled Kings/Mavs fan.

Hint: Next time you decide to bandwagon a team, at least bandwagon a team that can win. Example: San Antonio Spurs

[Ksyrup]

In the end, it's all personal opinion... You guys still think Kobe and Shaq are basketball gods, and I still think they bought a championship.
Why are these two things mutually exclusive? I haven't once said a thing about whether I think Shaq/Kobe are great or whether I think they suck. That's because it's irrelevant to your argument that the way they've landed their free agents somehow makes them less worthy of winning, like they and Malone/Payton have somehow cheapened themselves by simply participating in the free agent process. Which you still haven't explained to anyone's satisfaction.


Malone and GP wanted to come to LA, duh, but I've never seen a player join a team via free agency he didn't want to play for....
Again, what's so "taboo" about this? Why is it wrong for them, but OK for everyone else?

[rkmsuf]

Is Kobe even the best at his position?

Shaq probably is but he still doesn't have great basketball skills and he takes weeks off at a time.

Shaq doesn't have doesn't have great basketball skills but is probably best at his position? That's like FOF has great sound even though there isn't any.

[rexallllsc]

In the end, it's all personal opinion... You guys still think Kobe and Shaq are basketball gods, and I still think they bought a championship. Malone and GP wanted to come to LA, duh, but I've never seen a player join a team via free agency he didn't want to play for....

They are basketball gods. They'll go down as some of the best player ever.

As far as Malone and GP, well...YEAH. You said the Lakers purchased them, which is false. You make it sound like they didn't have a choice in that matter...that the Lakers bought them like they were a case of beer.

[Deattribution]

You sound like a disgruntled Kings/Mavs fan.

Hint: Next time you decide to bandwagon a team, at least bandwagon a team that can win. Example: San Antonio Spurs


Actually I don't have 'a team'.


Why are these two things mutually exclusive? I haven't once said a thing about whether I think Shaq/Kobe are great or whether I think they suck. That's because it's irrelevant to your argument that the way they've landed their free agents somehow makes them less worthy of winning, like they and Malone/Payton have somehow cheapened themselves by simply participating in the free agent process. Which you still haven't explained to anyone's satisfaction.

I never said they cheapened themselves by being free agents, Although I have implied they cheapened themselves by joining the Lakers because they know that is where they can get there rings the easiest. They basically said that when they joined.

And it's not irrelevant because unless you live in a fox hole, The media sucks up to Kobe and Shaq 24/7, if they are so great, why do they need Malone and Payton, why not Walker and Fisher? Did they not play thier roles well enough when they won the first 3? atleast the very least Fisher did.


Again, what's so "taboo" about this? Why is it wrong for them, but OK for everyone else?

And that comment was to rexallllsc, who so obviously pointed out that Malone and GP wanted to join the Lakers.

But I've said all I am going to say about this now.

[rexallllsc]

I never said they cheapened themselves by being free agents, Although I have implied they cheapened themselves by joining the Lakers because they know that is where they can get there rings the easiest. They basically said that when they joined.

They want to win. Are you really faulting someone for that? Malone spent what...19 years with the Jazz?

And it's not irrelevant because unless you live in a fox hole, The media sucks up to Kobe and Shaq 24/7, if they are so great, why do they need Malone and Payton, why not Walker and Fisher? Did they not play thier roles well enough when they won the first 3? atleast the very least Fisher did.

Obviously you don't live in LA...a town where the Lakers have taken their share of heat over the last few seasons.

As far as Fisher...well, IMO, he's done as well or better than Payton, but I still wish the Lakers had a better PG.

The Lakers needed Malone because they needed a PF. Do you not remember the Lakers LOSING to the Spurs last year? Do you not remember Horry having an abysmal playoff run?

[rkmsuf]

I don't get his point at all. I guess the Lakers are supposed to try to lose or at least try to win with 10 Kenny Andersons, Shaq and Kobe.

[rexallllsc]

I don't get his point at all. I guess the Lakers are supposed to try to lose or at least try to win with 10 Kenny Andersons, Shaq and Kobe.


"If Shaq and Kobe can't win with Mark Madsen and Jannero Pargo as their starting PF and PG, they're CLEARLY not the best players in the NBA"

[heybrad]

And it's not irrelevant because unless you live in a fox hole, The media sucks up to Kobe and Shaq 24/7, if they are so great, why do they need Malone and Payton, why not Walker and Fisher? Did they not play thier roles well enough when they won the first 3? atleast the very least Fisher did.
There are so many inaccuracies in the things you say, I cant point them all out, but this one deserves a response. Find a way to get yourself the LA Times. Bill Plaschke and Tim Brown constantly rip on the Lakers.

Why stick with Walker and Fisher when they could have downgraded to [insert worst PF and worst G in the leage here]. I mean, teams shouldnt try to upgrade should they? They should just keep the same team that they have until it gets old and worn out. Thats a great strategy. Never try to upgrade. Point out the franchise that has done that, please.

[rexallllsc]

I mean, teams shouldnt try to upgrade should they? They should just keep the same team that they have until it gets old and worn out. Thats a great strategy. Never try to upgrade. Point out the franchise that has done that, please.

Clippers, Los Angeles

;)

[heybrad]

Clippers, Los Angeles

;)
The Clippers cant get guys to stay long enough to get old and worn out.

:D

[Ksyrup]

I don't get his point at all. I guess the Lakers are supposed to try to lose or at least try to win with 10 Kenny Andersons, Shaq and Kobe.
No, I think he's suggesting that since everyone says they're so great, they're supposed to play all of their games 2-on-5, since they don't need any other players on their team to win a championship.

[Noop]

Found a new play thing to gangbang I see....*walks out of thread*

[druez]

Yes.

Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson > Kobe arguable of course

[druez]

Shaq doesn't have doesn't have great basketball skills but is probably best at his position? That's like FOF has great sound even though there isn't any.

Can he shoot free throws? Is he a great dribbler? Is he a great passer? Great basketball sense? Great shooter? Umm No.

He is an animal, physical and is a star so he gets a good many calls.

Yao Ming is probably the most "skilled" player at center or maybe Vladia Divac in terms of pure basketball skills.

[rexallllsc]

Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson > Kobe arguable of course

I think you could make the argument for McGrady, but I don't think I'd take him over Kobe, if the chips were down. I think Bryant is overall a better shooter.

AI...well, as much as I like him, the wear and tear on his body seems to be taking it's toll.

[rexallllsc]

Yao Ming is probably the most "skilled" player at center or maybe Vladia Divac in terms of pure basketball skills.

Shaq has defeated those guys so many times it's not worth debating.

[MrBug708]

Can he shoot free throws? Is he a great dribbler? Is he a great passer? Great basketball sense? Great shooter? Umm No.

Tim Duncan is a 50% FT shooter, can't dribble, has no better or worse Basketball sense then Shaq, and can shoot from 8 feet instead of 6.

[Neuqua]

Tim Duncan is a 50% FT shooter, can't dribble, has no better or worse Basketball sense then Shaq, and can shoot from 8 feet instead of 6.

Which Tim Duncan are you talking about?

Tim Duncan, the Spurs PF/C, is a career 70% FT shooter, he has a plethora of post moves, is arguably the most intelligent big man in the NBA, and can shoot from 15 feet with no problem.

Shaq is not the most skilled big man in the league by any means. He is just really, really big and has never-before-seen footwork for a guy his size.

[ahbrady]

I'm with you Neuqua. You can argue that Shaq is better than Duncan, but there's no way Duncan's not more skilled.

[Antmeister]

I'm with you Neuqua. You can argue that Shaq is better than Duncan, but there's no way Duncan's not more skilled.

I think they are both equally skilled. Shaq is a better passer than Duncan and has better footwork. Duncan is a much better shooter (has an arsenal of shot types) and better moves. They are both good rebounders and defensive players (not great, but good).

I hate when they always use intelligence when referring to Duncan in comparison to Shaq. Shaq has got probably the same basketball sense as Duncan and maybe even better. There are times when Shaq passes better than most point guards in this league.

[TroyF]

Good lord, I can't stand the Lakers as a rule (mainly because of the biased officiating toward that team ever sinse Shaq arrived), but the arguements against them here are ridiculous.

Buy a championship? So what? Should they have refused Malone and Payton because they didn't want to be TOO good? They did what any team would do. They tried to make themselves better and shore up their weaknesses. They succeeded.

It's not borning seeing a team win 10 years in a row. It's boring when the team wins because of other factors. I like how the Blazers game was brought up as a choke job. The reffing in the fourth quarter of that game rivaled the 4th quarter of the Kings a year earlier, which in turn rivaled the T-Wolves debacle a year later, which set up this years "how many fouls does Shaq have?" question as the refs fouled out KG and watched Shaq commit ten fouls in the final 5 minutes.

I remember someone saying that basketball was everything people accused baseball of being. It wasn't far off. Don't get me wrong, I still have a problem with the economics of baseball, but the Yankees win in the playoffs because the other team becomes stupid and their stars "outplay" the other team. In the NBA, if you are a star, you don't need to outplay the other team. You have a built in advantage from the start of the game. Foget giving you a 50/50 call, you can get away with a double homicide and still walk away unscathed. (anyone who thinks Malone shouldn't have been suspended for the same two games Peeler was needs glasses)

After that long winded, our of place rant. . . the Lakers are a damned good team and they were put together fair and square. More power to em.

[MrBug708]

duncan shot 59.9% from the FT line. Shall we go to FG% too?

[Neuqua]

duncan shot 59.9% from the FT line. Shall we go to FG% too?

Yeah but that was only one year. He's a career 70% shooter.

In that case, Shaq has had 3 seasons of shooting less than 50% from the stripe.

[MrBug708]

Yeah but that was only one year. He's a career 70% shooter.

In that case, Shaq has had 3 seasons of shooting less than 50% from the stripe.

Thanks Einstein, for the revelation that Shaq can't hit a FT......

[ahbrady]

Tim Duncan is a 50% FT shooter, can't dribble, has no better or worse Basketball sense then Shaq, and can shoot from 8 feet instead of 6.

Tim Duncan is a much better FT shooter than Shaq and can dribble better than Shaq. I would say that Duncan also has more basketball sense and can shoot from much further out than Shaq. I'm still not saying that he's a better basketball player than Shaq though, especially the way the game is officiated in the NBA.

[MrBug708]

How do you figure Duncan has a better BB IQ? What determind's it? As for Dribbling, I've seen Shaq go coast to coast with the ball and dunk it after a steal. Not pretty be het gets it there. He's also got the best on court feel for where teammates are.

[TroyF]

Shaq vs. Duncan

I believe Shaq has far more talent than Tim Duncan. The problem is he doesn't need to use that talent because of the way the NBA game is played. Shaq was one of my all-time favorite college players to watch. He could dribble it up the floor, he was in the process of developing a 15 foot hook that could have been unstoppable. He gave it everything he had every night.

That player is dead. The new version doens't need to play hard and doesn't need to develop any game from beyond 5 feet. He doesn't have to beat his man down the floor to get good post position. He's simply bigger than any other player in the NBA, he just backs them down to get where he wants. Then he overpowers them and dunks the ball or gets fouled. He's useless in the fourth quarter, rarely touching the ball late in the game if it isn't a putback, because teams will foul him and he can't go outside and face his man up, run around a screen and shoot or create his own shot from beyond 5-8 feet. He's also horrible on the pick and roll, something well documented. (and why the T-Wolves REALLY missed a healthy Cassell in the last series.

Duncan can't shoot foul shots either, but he can do most of the things Shaq can't/doesn't do. He can create his own shot from 15 feet. You can give him the ball in the fourth, because he is a bigtime clutch shooter. (when's the last time you saw Shaq hit the type of shot that TD did near the end of game 5?) He's great on the pick and roll. He can set AND run around screens to get the ball. He also uses more brains to get rebounds than bulk. Before anyone else points this out, TD gets a crapload of calls as well. Not nearly as many as Shaq, but he gets some calls he has no business getting.

At the end of the day, how can you fault Shaq for playing the way he does? He's a dominant player within the rules of the game. Would he have been this successful in the 80's? He may have been MORE successful because he would have been forced to develop an all around game. TD would essentially be the same player in any era.

Who would I want on my team? TD. . . but not because he's better, because he plays the time of game I enjoy watching (his team is a different story) Still, gun to my head, one game situation. . . it's gotta be Shaq.

One last thing: Both are decent passers. Duncan averages more assists and less turnovers per game than Shaq, but neither are what you would call GREAT passing big men. They both do an OK job, nothing more.

[Ksyrup]

Which Tim Duncan are you talking about?
The Arizona Cardinals kicker. Shaq is a superior baseketball player to him in every sense of the word. Except for when kicking the ball comes into play.

[druez]

Shaq has defeated those guys so many times it's not worth debating.

actually Yao Ming plays dead even or better then shaq in most head to head matchups. Given the fact that yao is much younger...

[ahbrady]

I would agree with everything you said, Troy, except the part about enjoying his play in college. I'm an Arkansas fan, so I didn't like watching him play. I think he only beat the Razorbacks once, if I'm not mistaken, though. Maybe the Timberwolves should have played Oliver Miller more. :)

[MrBug708]

actually Yao Ming plays dead even or better then shaq in most head to head matchups. Given the fact that yao is much younger...

Then again, you also think this Pistons team is the best defensive team ever....

[druez]

You would be hard pressed to find a team that has put up the defensive numbers they did during these playoffs...

[Suicane75]

You would be hard pressed to find a team that has put up the defensive numbers they did during these playoffs...

You would be hard pressed to have the Pistons win 2 games in this series as well.

[Neuqua]

You would be hard pressed to find a team that has put up the defensive numbers they did during these playoffs...

Against a Buck team who at the end of the year had no business making the playoffs, and whose offense was not to be seen when Ford had gone down.

Against a Nets team who by no means is an offensive juggernaut. NJ scores their points but forcing turnovers and turning it into fastbreaks.

And against another team who is widely considered a fantastic defensive team. I think it was Carlisle himself who said that first one to 70 wins.

I'm not knocking the Pistons as one of the best defensive teams in a long time. They, like the Spurs last year, have no real weakness defensively (except when you make them work on offense). But I think proclaiming themt o be the best defensive team in history is a tad bit of a reach. They might not even be better than those Bad Boys of the 80s.

[albionmoonlight]

The fundamental problem with basketball as a spectator sport is that every close game has several critical junctures where the officials are forced to make subjective decisions that will determine the outcome. It's just the nature of how it is played.

Almost every sport is at its worst when refs are forced to make judgment calls. Do people really enjoy winning or losing a baseball game based on a questionable strike call? Do fans just love wondering if the last defensive stop should have been negated because of illegal contact by the defensive backs? [Fill in hockey equivilant]?

Baseball and football, however, have the advantage of at least being able to create the illusion that, on the vast majority of plays, the refs are just enforcing black and white rules correctly. In basketball, however, fouls are part of the game. Good teams are told to take it to the hole and draw contact. Big guys mug each other all game for position. And the "fouling out" concept makes fans very concious of every move a guy like Shaq or Michael Jordan makes once he get five fouls. Indeed, we are told to watch for it.

Again, I don't really know what basketball can do to change the situation, but putting so much of the game in the hands of the subjective judgment of the refs really leads to a lot of criticism and makes it a less pleasant game to watch.