It's Gone! 2004-2006 NHL Offseason and Lockout Thread

[Ragone]

hehe someone had to do it... Go Lightning.. and on another topic i saw in the other thread... Greatest championships.. i really think overall Stanley cup is #2 outta the big 4..

1. Nfl
2. Nhl
3. Mlb
4. Nba

hell.. i'd probably put ncaa mens college basketball above 2-4.. but its not a valid comparison really

[sabotai]

Next year is going to suck.

[JeeberD]

At least I won't have to see the Oilers trade away their young talent like they do every year...

[Maple Leafs]

Damn lockout... guess I better go see how the wife's been doing the last year or so.

Oh hey, what do you know, she had twins!

[sachmo71]

At least I won't have to see the Oilers trade away their young talent like they do every year...

The lockout probably won't start until September...there could still be trades. :)

[Ksyrup]

Should be interesting, if nothing else. I guess the one positive is that my DirecTV bill will be less than usual come September.

[Cards4ever]

If there is no NHL hockey I hope that people get out and support their local College, HS and youth programs, there is a ton of good hockey out there.

[Ksyrup]

Chief Osceola and Renegade wouldn't fair so well on the ice, I'm afraid...


http://fsuicehockey.topcities.com/indexold.htm

[Fidatelo]

While watching Calgary struggle to even get a shot on goal last night I had a thought: is the goalie padding really keeping the goals down, or is player padding just as much at fault? It is almost impossible to get a shot in from the point nowadays, because the defense just collapses in front of the goal and blocks everything. Is this because these guys are just more insane than players 15 years ago, or is it because they are wearing flak jackets and other assorted body armor?

[Cards4ever]

Well, you also have some minor league hockey down there too, no? Everblades?

[Ksyrup]

Tallahassee used to have an ECHL team that was an affiliate of the Panthers. Saw the Panthers play an exhibition game or two in Tally, actually. They left a few years ago, and we almost got a WHA2 franchise last year, but the county played hardball over civic center issues or some nonsense like that, and the owner had no choice but to abandon the idea.

Jacksonville's WHA team is the closest, I think. And then there is the Pensacola team in the ECHL. Other than that, unfortunately we don't have anything close.

[Ksyrup]

The Everblades (cute name, not quite as punny as the Louisiana Ice Gators) play down near Naples/Ft. Myers. That's like 7 hours from here.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I miss the New Orleans Brass. :(

[Tekneek]

I can't put the Super Bowl over the Stanley Cup Finals. The Super Bowl has been underwhelming for quite a while, to me. The hype is too much. The amount of non-football related events sanctioned by the NFL and happening before, during, and after the Super Bowl make it a joke. The halftime show should be all about the game being the last game of the season and looking back. Not about sending out overhyped "pop stars" who probably don't know one thing about the game.

[Ksyrup]

I just miss the option of seeing something other than college sports. At one point, we had minor league hockey, a minor league indoor soccer team, and there was talk of trying to get an AFL2 team and of moving the Orlando Rays to Tallahassee before Disney bought them off by constructing the Braves' spring training facility. Especially now that I have kids, having even low-level minor league sports would be a plus. Now, we have nothing and I never hear anything about bringing professional sports back.

[albionmoonlight]

I can't put the Super Bowl over the Stanley Cup Finals. The Super Bowl has been underwhelming for quite a while, to me. The hype is too much. The amount of non-football related events sanctioned by the NFL and happening before, during, and after the Super Bowl make it a joke. The halftime show should be all about the game being the last game of the season and looking back. Not about sending out overhyped "pop stars" who probably don't know one thing about the game.
As a football fan, I would like it if the NFL focused just on football with the Superbowl. However, the NFL is not just marketing the SB to football fans. It makes it an event that trys to appeal to everyone in America so that everyone in America will tune in to watch.

I think that the NFL Draft is the last haven for football obsessed fans who don't want their enjoyment diluted by other entertainment.

And just to make sure that I actually put a hockey comment into this thread: I think that all sports should have a championship trophy like the Stanley Cup. Very cool tradition.

[bbor]

Bite your tongue!

There is still hope if someone comes to there senses...don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

[Karim]

I think we should probably kill the other thread.... just a thought.

Anyway, here is an excellent summary of the top 30 for the draft. The amount of work that went into this is amazing...
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=80927

From what I've read, Ovechkin may be drafted #1 but Malkin is just as good, if not better. If that holds up, Chicago is the team that got screwed in the draft lottery.

Top European Forward: LW Alexander Ovechkin, Moscow Dynamo
Top European Defenseman: D Johann Fransson, Lulea
Top European Goaltender: G Marek Schwarz, Sparta

Top American Forward: C Robbie Schremp, London
Top American Defenseman: D A.J. Thelen, Michigan State
Top American Goaltender: G Al Montoya, Michigan

Top Canadian Forward: LW Andrew Ladd, Calgary
Top Canadian Defenseman: D Cam Barker, Medicine Hat
Top Canadian Goaltender: G David Shanz, Mississauga

[bbor]

I hear rumours Schremp is a head case.

[sterlingice]

I hear rumours Schremp is a head case. Wiseguy, eh? Wait, that was Shemp. Or was it Moe? Man, they don't show the Stooges on AMC or any other station these days :(

SI

[Coder]

Read this on TSN.ca:

RDS.ca, citing a source, claimed that the NHLPA offered to reduce salaries by 10%, set a luxury tax at $45-million and a rookie salary cap at $850,000 including all bonuses. According to the reported proposal, free agency would begin at 28 or 29 years of age, rather than the current 31.

--- It's being denied by Bob Goodenow though, the NHLPA big guy.

[sterlingice]

How can the NHLPA "reduce salaries", as in current salaries?

SI

[Coder]

I guess by agreeing to do that they would simply cut base salaries leaguewide by 10%.. i.e. agree to current contracts being reduced.. so if Forsberg gets 10 mil now, he'd go down to 9 mil.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Read this on TSN.ca:

RDS.ca, citing a source, claimed that the NHLPA offered to reduce salaries by 10%, set a luxury tax at $45-million and a rookie salary cap at $850,000 including all bonuses. According to the reported proposal, free agency would begin at 28 or 29 years of age, rather than the current 31.

--- It's being denied by Bob Goodenow though, the NHLPA big guy.

That's interesting. Well, they need to start somewhere. I think a "soft cap" with a luxury tax is the way to go. Teams that want to pay it, can, but they will be subsidizing the other teams in the process.

[Karim]

Any luxury tax will need to be accompanied by a salary floor. There will be owners tempted to just pocket the cash instead of trying to develop their roster.

~~~~~

On the Flames front, it appears Conroy is not going to be a Flame after July 1st. Conroy was negotiating through the media the other day and mentioned in January, Sutter offered him a contract that entailed a pay cut to his current $2.2 million salary. This was at a time when he only had two goals. Conroy was comparing himself to Fedorov and his $10 million/year salary, saying he's posted similar numbers over the past couple years.

Conroy is a great guy and a good 2-way player but comparing himself to Fedorov is a little outrageous.

Sutter commented that he expects a turnover of 7 or 8 players. That's quite a lot for a team that just got to the finals. Under the current CBA, a large market team wouldn't have to haggle with Conroy, or consider all the budget implications, they'd just retain his services.

Next time Damien Cox or some other hockey "expert" says the current CBA works for small market teams, I think I'm going to puke. Yes, a small market team can get to the finals with smart management and luck but it can't retain it's players after getting there -- that is the problem. Yes, RFAs are retained until age 31 but RFAs simply get raises through arbitration or holdout forcing a trade. The Iginla rumours are already flying as well because he will be needing a raise to elite level status after his playoff performance. (Apparently $7 million isn't elite level status.)

I guess I have to hope Bettman can negotiate a CBA that will work for the small-market teams. The future of hockey in Calgary in the hands of Gary Bettman.... now there's a scary thought. :(

[Coder]

Could someone explain how a luxury tax would actually distribute the taxed money to the low payroll teams? Is it split evenly or percentage based on how small payrolls they have?

[klayman]

I guess I have to hope Bettman can negotiate a CBA that will work for the small-market teams. The future of hockey in Calgary in the hands of Gary Bettman.... now there's a scary thought. :(
That future was decided by Bettman 10 years ago.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well, it comes as no surprise, but the Wings made it official today. They will not re-sign Brett Hull. He had three good years with team, but he's run his course. He started sulking and ticking people off, as is his want, and the Wings, rightly so, feel they need to get a bit younger and faster. The Wings also decided to let Stumpy Thomas walk as well. They will likely work a deal out with Selke Award Winner Kris Draper. Schneider is also likely to be brought back. The bigger question is Shanahan. The Wings would like him back, but at a reduced salary. I think he made US $6.5 million last year.

[Maple Leafs]

Does anyone else find that their opinion on the whole League vs. Players battle sways in the wind based on which side has done their talking last?

When Bettman gets his moment in the spotlight, with his weasely tone and refusal to give a straight answer to a question, I find myself siding with the players. Then yesterday Goodenow gets his chance and decides to bully his way through the session with condescending non-answers. And now I'm back onside with the owners.

[Cards4ever]

Decent list, I've seen some of these guys play and know of some of them. Stafford is a pretty good player, plays with alot of determination, the comment about work ethic is on the mark. If he stays at UND we'll find out if his production stays the same without Parise feeding him.

AJ Thelen, look at his numbers! He was a 17yo College freshman this year and he really played well. Always nice to see a Minnesota kid do well even if it isn't at the U of M.

I have seen Zajac play, but with the weaknesses listed, when he goes to UND he will work through those, or he will not play. Blais demands physical intense play and if you don't, you sit.

Blake Wheeler, this is a future U of M player that has been heavily scouted this past season. Every college in the country wanted this guy. This guy is the real deal and I would not be surprised to see him go higher than listed. With his size and skating ability the ceiling is high for him. Sure he dominated HS play, but he also played in our fall HS Elite league and did great, he's still got another year of HS play then he will be at the U of M, a NHL team that wants to wait a couple of years for him would do well to draft him.

[JeeberD]

I hear rumours Schremp is a head case.


So Shorty is a hockey player?

[bbor]

Conroy comparing himself with Feds???

Let's face it...Conroy is a nice player,but nothing more than a 3mil a year player.I can't see anyone else giving him more than that.

[primelord]

Well, it comes as no surprise, but the Wings made it official today. They will not re-sign Brett Hull. He had three good years with team, but he's run his course. He started sulking and ticking people off, as is his want, and the Wings, rightly so, feel they need to get a bit younger and faster. The Wings also decided to let Stumpy Thomas walk as well. They will likely work a deal out with Selke Award Winner Kris Draper. Schneider is also likely to be brought back. The bigger question is Shanahan. The Wings would like him back, but at a reduced salary. I think he made US $6.5 million last year.
We have blue note jerseys that will fit both of them. You can always come home boys. :)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Conroy comparing himself with Feds???

Let's face it...Conroy is a nice player,but nothing more than a 3mil a year player.I can't see anyone else giving him more than that.

Well, I can't blame a lad for trying. In a strat-o-matic season I once tried to convince someone Curtis Brown was as good as Fedorov. They had similar stats and everything. It didn't fly...

[klayman]

With his gift for gab, Conroy should be comparing himself to Ken Dryden.

[Ragone]

I like how one side says there has to be a salary cap.. and then nhlpa basically caves in by saying "A Salary cap is not IN OUR PLANS" which means it will be...

If your gonna take a hardline stance.. get it right.. jeez

[Karim]

Does anyone else find that their opinion on the whole League vs. Players battle sways in the wind based on which side has done their talking last?
Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.

[Karim]

Could someone explain how a luxury tax would actually distribute the taxed money to the low payroll teams? Is it split evenly or percentage based on how small payrolls they have?
I think it could work either way if they wanted it but the more common approach I've heard is to evenly split the proceeds.

[sterlingice]

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.
Ditto. As part of the deal, could we trade in Bettman for a new commish?

SI

[Joe Canadian]

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.

If I had to sum I'm my thoughts I'd probably say the same. However, Bettman is a moron... he has no idea how to handle himself with the media, and just hurts the cause the league is fighting for. I wouldn't go as far as saying my opinion sways to the players side when Bettman talks, but it gets pretty close sometimes.

Does anyone else think that the owners should have their own "agent" or "union", and have the league commish be somewhat unbiased in all this? I know they are fighting for similar things... but to me this really smacks of a conflict of interest.

[sterlingice]

If I had to sum I'm my thoughts I'd probably say the same. However, Bettman is a moron... he has no idea how to handle himself with the media, and just hurts the cause the league is fighting for. I wouldn't go as far as saying my opinion sways to the players side when Bettman talks, but it gets pretty close sometimes.

Does anyone else think that the owners should have their own "agent" or "union", and have the league commish be somewhat unbiased in all this? I know they are fighting for similar things... but to me this really smacks of a conflict of interest.
It sounds so simple, but I had never thought of that before. Baseball needs this, too.

SI

[Karim]

The major problem is simply the lack of trust. All the owners could open all the books with the most respected accountants declaring teams are losing money and the union would be convinced there is hidden money. When Levitt did his report, the union countered that revenue was defined incorrectly because Levitt used the NFL & NBA definition of revenue - two leagues with salary caps.

I'm glad EHM:FE is going to be released soon because I think that's the only NHL I'll see for a while...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Karim, I think you're right.

Here's the latest from ESPN. It doesn't look promising...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1819930


TORONTO -- With the Stanley Cup finals now securely in the rear-view mirror, the question still remains: Will NHL games be played next season?


NHL Players' Association head Bob Goodenow says the answer very easily could be no.


Goodenow, in Toronto for the NHLPA meetings, said the players remain firmly against a salary cap.


Management and the union have been at odds for the past 18 months over the issue of a cap. NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and his negotiating team want a hard cap, while the union wants no part of it. Neither side is backing down as of yet.


Is a high-stakes game of "chicken" on the horizon?


"A salary cap is not going to be part of the plan going forward," Goodenow told Toronto newspapers for Friday editions. "That means there won't be a start of the season and there may not be a season [at all] next year. We are not going to do a cap and we are not going to do a percentage of revenues. The owners set the scale of salaries for the players and that is the marketplace. It has always been that way for the past 75 years or so and that is the way we are going to go forward with it."


There are no meetings planned between the NHL and players.


"I'm optimistic we'll be able to get something done ... I'm an optimistic person," union president Trevor Linden told reporters. "I can't speak for the owners, but we're going to work hard as a union to try to avoid a lockout. We're going to try to get something done."


Avalanche star Joe Sakic doesn't expect to have to attend an Avs training camp at the end of the World Cup of Hockey in September.


"To me it just looks like Bettman doesn't want to start unless he gets everything he wants," Sakic told reporters. "So I don't expect hockey. We all hope [a new collective bargaining agreement] gets done, but to be realistic, I don't see it happening right now."


If the season does not start on time, players certainly have other options. They can play in Europe, or they can play in the newly formed World Hockey Association. The WHA announced Wednesday that its eight franchises will begin play Oct. 29.


The Lightning's Martin St. Louis, who was awarded the Hart Trophy as the league's MVP on Thursday night, said it would be silly for him not to at least consider playing in the WHA.


"Sitting at home or making $5 million, it would be very tempting," St. Louis told The Globe and Mail of Toronto. "Obviously, I have to know where we were at as far as the NHL situation. But to be honest, I really haven't thought about that."


WHA teams will have a $15 million salary cap, but a player such as St. Louis could make as much as $5 million as a team's top player.


Initially, the WHA said that if a player signs a contract, he would have to play the entire season with his WHA club. But on Wednesday, a WHA official said the league will likely change the bylaw to stipulate two players per team would have the option of returning to the NHL if labor problems are resolved during the season.

The new WHA will have franchises in Quebec City, Hamilton, Toronto, Halifax, Detroit, Dallas, Orlando, and Jacksonville, Fla.

[bbor]

I've heard the NHL is gonna lock out all AHL players that have NHL contracts.The theory is these are the guys that will put pressure on the NHLPA to settle faster.

[Ragone]

can the nhl really make ahl squads not train/play players with nhl contracts and not allow the minor league squad to pay the wages?

If they can.. thats akin to say General Motors saying.. alright.. you can strike.. but we are shutting down the parts plants and laying off 3k people because of it (which does usually happen)

[Ryan S]

Does anyone else think that the owners should have their own "agent" or "union", and have the league commish be somewhat unbiased in all this? I know they are fighting for similar things... but to me this really smacks of a conflict of interest.
I think the Commish is appointed by the owners, and is looking out for their interests. The Commish has never been neutral because that is not his job.

[Maple Leafs]

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.
OK. So just for something to do, let me play devil's advocate. Assuming that your support for the owners extends to a league-wide salary cap:

- Why should the NHL, a league driven almost exclusively by gameday and local revenues (as opposed to national TV deals like the NFL), have artificially equal salary structures?

- Why should Toronto or Detroit, who sell out every night, have to be limited to the same payroll as a team that can't even get fans out to watch the games?

- And if they are limited to, say, a $30M cap, where does all those extra millions in revenue go? To the other teams that can barely stay afloat? Straight into the owner's pocket? Don't say "cheaper ticket prices" because we know that won't happen.

- Are you prepared for the inevitable byproduct of a cap: huge player turnover on a regular basis? Are you prepared to see teams cut their best players and have little to no year-to-year identy? I live in Ottawa, where the core of the team has stayed together for over five years and the fans love the guys. No way that happens in a cap world.

Don't get me wrong, I think the owners have a stronger case than the players. It's just that the more you look at it, the NFL-model really doesn't apply here. Apples and oranges.

[bbor]

can the nhl really make ahl squads not train/play players with nhl contracts and not allow the minor league squad to pay the wages?

If they can.. thats akin to say General Motors saying.. alright.. you can strike.. but we are shutting down the parts plants and laying off 3k people because of it (which does usually happen)


The AHL teams are generally paid for keeping NHL contracted players on their squad...therefore the nhl teams pay those salaries....or at least most of the salaries.

[sterlingice]

I'm not as well versed in the economics of hockey as I am in baseball, but I'll use the same template because it's a similar argument. Just substitute, say, "Calgary" and "Edmonton" for "Milwaukee" and "Kansas City".

It's not a fair and level playing field and as long as that's the case, you won't have people come out in those cities that don't draw well because they're trapped in a downward spiral. They can't draw fans because they have a crappy team, then the next year they can't improve their team because they don't draw well, etc. If this was a competition of who could make the most money and field the best team then let's just give Detroit and Toronto the titles every year and forego this silly "actually playing the games" thing (I'd say New York but we all know they're run by people almost as dumb as those running my poor Hawks so they'll never win).

The counter argument at that point is "why not just spend more money on your team then they will win". Because spending money is no guarantee and there is diminishing returns so you are just asking your owner to continually lose money. This isn't baseball- we know a lot of these teams for sure are losing lots of money. And it's unreasonable to expect owners to keep losing money out of their own pockets. You don't make enough money to offset your losses if you spend extra money by fielding a winning team no matter the market.

This is the point where the Yankee-- err Red Wings fan should say "well, fine we don't need them". But hockey fans seem a lot more intelligent than Yankees fans and I've never heard the "Well, we don't need the Royals/Brewers/Pirates/etc" argument so I don't need to trot out the "Enjoy your failing six-team league with no credibility, asshole".

So, in the end, it's about economics for the good of the sport. Do you want teams that can compete on a level playing field, thus keeping interest up around the league or do you just want to starve those cities that aren't major metro areas because you're selfish and enjoy always beating up on the lesser teams in an unfair fight (we call those bullies where I come from).

SI

[Maple Leafs]

So, in the end, it's about economics for the good of the sport. Do you want teams that can compete on a level playing field, thus keeping interest up around the league or do you just want to starve those cities that aren't major metro areas because you're selfish and enjoy always beating up on the lesser teams in an unfair fight (we call those bullies where I come from).Which I guess if a fair point, except that in the NHL there are a lot of teams with no history of any sort of success. The Royals/Brewers/Pirates/etc have at least had their good runs, and you can look at them and say "Well, under the right circumstances they could do it again". That's not the case with all the NHL teams. Calgary and Edmonton, sure, but what about some of the recent expansions? At what point do you cut bait on them? Because while nobody wants to go back to a six-team league, how many teams do you force those few successful big markets to support before you admit failure and reduce the headcount?

As a Leaf fan paying $200 for a pair of tickets, I'll gladly see that some of that money go to Edmonton or Minnesota or Calgary because I know that the markets will support them with a little bit of help. I'm hesitant to do the same for the Altantas and Nashvilles of the world, and I'm very hesitant to see all that money go right into the bottom line of the teacher's pension fund while they shrug and say "sorry, guess we're not allowed to spend it".

[Chubby]

OK. So just for something to do, let me play devil's advocate. Assuming that your support for the owners extends to a league-wide salary cap:

- Why should the NHL, a league driven almost exclusively by gameday and local revenues (as opposed to national TV deals like the NFL), have artificially equal salary structures?

Precisely FOR that reason. Without a cap and a redistribution of some wealth, the rich will continue to get richer while the poor get poorer. The league doesn't generate the TV revenue to support the current salary structure. The players want to get paid like they play football or baseball or basketball except the revenue isn't there to support the salaries. Owners have proven time and time again (in all sports) that they can't restrain themselves with salaries.

- Why should Toronto or Detroit, who sell out every night, have to be limited to the same payroll as a team that can't even get fans out to watch the games?

To ensure some form of parity in the league. How does it help the league when it's the same teams in later rounds of the playoffs every year? No, a high payroll doesn't ensure victory but it heavily tilts things in your favor.

- And if they are limited to, say, a $30M cap, where does all those extra millions in revenue go? To the other teams that can barely stay afloat? Straight into the owner's pocket? Don't say "cheaper ticket prices" because we know that won't happen.
I don't think it goes anywhere. I don't think you can spread stuff out becase the TV money isn't there unless they weigh the tv $ more heavily towards smaller markets but I doubt that will happen. I think that a hard cap will have to be enough to help balance things out. A luxury tax is a joke, it doesn't do anything just look at MLB.

- Are you prepared for the inevitable byproduct of a cap: huge player turnover on a regular basis? Are you prepared to see teams cut their best players and have little to no year-to-year identy? I live in Ottawa, where the core of the team has stayed together for over five years and the fans love the guys. No way that happens in a cap world.

Yes it will, you are forgetting the way teams basically own players until they are 29 (or whatever the FA age gets changed to). The way the system is setup now with tender offers and min offers to retain players rights until they reach FA age, it won't be that bad. The vets will move around more than they do now but I think that's a worthwhile sacrifice.

Don't get me wrong, I think the owners have a stronger case than the players. It's just that the more you look at it, the NFL-model really doesn't apply here. Apples and oranges.
I know you're playing devils advocate and no the situations aren't the same (because of TV) but I see no reason why a NFL system wouldn't work in the NHL and I think it's the best way to go. The Sabres lose millions and MILLIONS a year. The only reason they didn't leave was because Golisano and his billions stepped in thank god. The Sabres and many other small market teams simply can't compete on a consistent business in the current system. Yes, they may have the perfect season (99, or the Flames this year) but why should fans of those teams have to suffer for years and years to just have a shot once every decade?

[Chubby]

As a Leaf fan paying $200 for a pair of tickets, I'll gladly see that some of that money go to Edmonton or Minnesota or Calgary because I know that the markets will support them with a little bit of help. I'm hesitant to do the same for the Altantas and Nashvilles of the world, and I'm very hesitant to see all that money go right into the bottom line of the teacher's pension fund while they shrug and say "sorry, guess we're not allowed to spend it".
Let's be honest. You pay $200 for a pair of tickets because that is the Leafs can charge and know they will still sell out. The Sabres on the other hand are selling tickets below what they should to get fans in there. They can't raise ticket prices to generate revenue to get better players so they can't raise prices because their product isn't as good because they can't generate revenue.

Complaining about Leaf prices is like complaining about Yankee ticket prices. They can charge whatever they want and people will still flock there.

[Maple Leafs]

Hey Chubby, good points for the most part. The only one I'd take issue with is this:

Yes it will, you are forgetting the way teams basically own players until they are 29 (or whatever the FA age gets changed to). The way the system is setup now with tender offers and min offers to retain players rights until they reach FA age, it won't be that bad. The vets will move around more than they do now but I think that's a worthwhile sacrifice.I'm not forgetting the current system, I just don't see any way that a salary cap gets implemented without major concessions from the owners, and that would include drastically lowering the FA age. I realize we're talking in hypotheticals here, but I don't think it's even worth discussing a cap without also factoring a very low FA age. Look at the NBA and NFL, and then try to think of a scenario where then NHLPA wouldn't insist of a FA age of around 25 or 26 if there was going to be a cap. Short of completely breaking the union (which may be Bettman's ultimate goal), I just don't see how it's possible.

[Chubby]

Hey Chubby, good points for the most part. The only one I'd take issue with is this:

I'm not forgetting the current system, I just don't see any way that a salary cap gets implemented without major concessions from the owners, and that would include drastically lowering the FA age. I realize we're talking in hypotheticals here, but I don't think it's even worth discussing a cap without also factoring a very low FA age. Look at the NBA and NFL, and then try to think of a scenario where then NHLPA wouldn't insist of a FA age of around 25 or 26 if there was going to be a cap. Short of completely breaking the union (which may be Bettman's ultimate goal), I just don't see how it's possible.

Hey I agree. This is what is going to make it so difficult to reach a deal. Whether the rumors about the proposed offer from the NHLPA are true or not, they are going to want a much lower FA age. BUT, at $30 mil cap what are those new FA's going to get on the market? I think that's a tradeoff I would make if I were the owners.

[Maple Leafs]

I think that's a tradeoff I would make if I were the owners.Which is why it's going to be so hard to get the PA to agree to a deal.

By the way, I just don't see the $30M figure flying. I realize that's the number that's out there, but I'd question how realistic (and how fair) it really is.

For one thing, from what I can find for last year only five teams are below the $30M right now. Compare that to 14 teams being at $40M+, with seven at $60M+. It seems like even if you believe in the cap concept, setting it so low would be extremely unfair to the players.

Beyond that, the NHL has annual revenues of about $2 billion. Thirty teams at $30M would be only $900M in salaries, or 45%. The NHL itself has claimed that it wants to be in the same range as the other sports, which is roughly 60-65%. Now obviously revenues will go down after a long strike, but we also know that many teams will also spend less than the cap. If you look at a rough percentage of 60%, that gives you $1.2B for salaries among thirty teams.

Add those two points together and it sure looks like a $40M cap is more realistic.

[Chubby]

the problem with those figures is they are highly skewed by the large market teams. I'd have to go look through some Golisano/Regier interviews but I think they said around 80% of revenue went to salary for the Sabres (maybe it was Quinn on the radio). Hell, $30 mil would be like 5% of Leaf revenues :)

Of course only 5 teams are below it right now, the market is SO overpriced it's silly. The large makret teams have ratched up the overall market for all players by bidding against themselves for the top players. I agree that a $40 mil cap is more realistic which may be why the initail bargaining point is $30 mil

[Maple Leafs]

the problem with those figures is they are highly skewed by the large market teams. I'd have to go look through some Golisano/Regier interviews but I think they said around 80% of revenue went to salary for the Sabres (maybe it was Quinn on the radio). Hell, $30 mil would be like 5% of Leaf revenues :)
Yes, but the key is that the owners want to tie it to a percentage of overall revenue. So skewed or not, if you're going to spend 60% of your $2B, that's about $40M a team unless the owners are projecting massive losses in revenue after a lockout.

Remember, the revenue part of the equation is skewed too. Teams like Detroit and Toronto bring in far more revenue than the other teams. They're the ones doing all the heavy-lifting in terms of bring in the money, which is why fans in those cities will be the first to get restless when they don't get to watch hockey for a year or two because Nashville can't compete.

[klayman]

- Are you prepared for the inevitable byproduct of a cap: huge player turnover on a regular basis? Are you prepared to see teams cut their best players and have little to no year-to-year identy?


This isn't happening already? The Oilers have difficulty holding on to any good players, and the Flames have to decimate their supporting players just to keep Iggy in the fold year after year. If it happens to the small market teams, you might as well make it fair and force it upon the big market teams as well.

[Chubby]

Yes, but the key is that the owners want to tie it to a percentage of overall revenue. So skewed or not, if you're going to spend 60% of your $2B, that's about $40M a team unless the owners are projecting massive losses in revenue after a lockout.

Remember, the revenue part of the equation is skewed too. Teams like Detroit and Toronto bring in far more revenue than the other teams. They're the ones doing all the heavy-lifting in terms of bring in the money, which is why fans in those cities will be the first to get restless when they don't get to watch hockey for a year or two because Nashville can't compete.

That's dumb if they want it tied up in overall revenue.

I know they do, that's what I was trying to say above. I agree about Det and Tor fans getting unrestless 1st, as a Sabre fan I'd rather them burn a season and get a fair system in place than do something halfass just to get the games played again.

[bbor]

which of you guys is Bettman and which is Goodenow? :D

[TroyF]

This isn't happening already? The Oilers have difficulty holding on to any good players, and the Flames have to decimate their supporting players just to keep Iggy in the fold year after year. If it happens to the small market teams, you might as well make it fair and force it upon the big market teams as well.


I'm not an expert on the NHL by any means, but here in Colorado we've seen drastic turnovers in each of the last 3 or 4 years. Blake, Forsberg, Sakik, Foote, Hejduk, Tanguay. The "core" has been there, but everything is always changing around them.

I'm not saying we are like Calgary and can barely afford one or two stars, but there is a LONG list of Avalanche that have went onto other places via FA and trades over the past four or five years. Some EXCELLANT players in that group.

I also understand that with a hard cap, that "core" would certainly have to be broken apart. Personally, I don't have much of a problem with that. I'm an Avs fan and I got sick of us winning the division every year. I've been pulling for Vancouver to win the damned thing ever sinse Bourqe got his title. (until Bertuzzi, now I wish someone else had broken the Avs streak)

Besides, as teams learn to work the cap, they can keep their players. It's already happening in football, where teams are starting to keep their core guys for a long time. (The Rams, if Warner had continued to play well, could have easily won 3 or 4 titles in a five year period. Every starter was locked up to long term, relatively cap friendly deals. The Chiefs, if they would have been intelligent with their draft picks and FA signings, could easily have put themselves in contention for three or four Super Bowl trips with their core.

It's all about learning to work the cap. It can be done.

[Draft Dodger]

can the nhl really make ahl squads not train/play players with nhl contracts and not allow the minor league squad to pay the wages?

If they can.. thats akin to say General Motors saying.. alright.. you can strike.. but we are shutting down the parts plants and laying off 3k people because of it (which does usually happen)

my understanding is that nhl contracted players with more than 50 career NHL games wont be able to play. under 50 games (and non-NHL contracted players) would play.

no idea if that's right, or where I saw it. maybe a local paper (AHL team in Manchester). maybe it was a dream - I bet I didn't have sex in THAT one for sure.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm not an expert on the NHL by any means, but here in Colorado we've seen drastic turnovers in each of the last 3 or 4 years. Blake, Forsberg, Sakik, Foote, Hejduk, Tanguay. The "core" has been there, but everything is always changing around them.

I'm not saying we are like Calgary and can barely afford one or two stars, but there is a LONG list of Avalanche that have went onto other places via FA and trades over the past four or five years. Some EXCELLANT players in that group.


not the same though. most of those deals weren't financially related - they were to get in better/different talent mixes. Drury, for example, was shipped out to get in Derek Morris...who was later dealt to bring in Vannanen and Chris Gratton.

[Chubby]

not the same though. most of those deals weren't financially related - they were to get in better/different talent mixes. Drury, for example, was shipped out to get in Derek Morris...who was later dealt to bring in Vannanen and Chris Gratton.

Chris Gratton HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wait.......... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

[Draft Dodger]

Chris Gratton HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wait.......... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

I wish I could laugh about it.

[TroyF]

DD,

No, it isn't the same and I said as such. I was just pointing out turnover in the NHL is fairly high in most cities right now. Sometimes financial, sometimes cleaning house. Whatever the reasons, it's not like many of us who watch teh NHL are going to go into shock with a high turnover rate. It's been happening anyway. The only difference would be everyone would be doing it for the same reasons.

[Maple Leafs]

I'd rather them burn a season and get a fair system in place than do something halfass just to get the games played again.I think we'd all agree that that's the worst-case scenario. If the system work, then shut up and play the games. If it doesn't work, do what it takes to fix it. Just don't take away our season only to wind up with the same problems all over again (like they did in '94).

[Chubby]

I wish I could laugh about it.

Ossi kicks ass in EHM at least :) After putting up with Gratton's underachieving ass in Buffalo, I'm astounded teams keep trading for him.

[Draft Dodger]

DD,

No, it isn't the same and I said as such. I was just pointing out turnover in the NHL is fairly high in most cities right now. Sometimes financial, sometimes cleaning house. Whatever the reasons, it's not like many of us who watch teh NHL are going to go into shock with a high turnover rate. It's been happening anyway. The only difference would be everyone would be doing it for the same reasons.

ah - I totally missed the context of the post. I get it now.
sorry.

[Draft Dodger]

Ossi kicks ass in EHM at least :) After putting up with Gratton's underachieving ass in Buffalo, I'm astounded teams keep trading for him.

Ossi was great in playoffs. Glad to have him on team. just hate to see them give up Morris and a nice prospect (Keith Ballard) to get him.
Gratton was a waste - he wasn't needed.

[Joe Canadian]

no idea if that's right, or where I saw it. maybe a local paper (AHL team in Manchester). maybe it was a dream - I bet I didn't have sex in THAT one for sure.

Thats what I heard is going to happen here with the St. John's Maple Leafs.

[Maple Leafs]

No, it isn't the same and I said as such. I was just pointing out turnover in the NHL is fairly high in most cities right now. Sometimes financial, sometimes cleaning house. Whatever the reasons, it's not like many of us who watch teh NHL are going to go into shock with a high turnover rate. It's been happening anyway. The only difference would be everyone would be doing it for the same reasons.I do think it will be different, though. Yes, turnover is already high. But that's because of trades. See how fans feel when it's just a case of guys getting released.

As an example, you'd mentioned Iginla. In a cap world, chances are the Flames don't trade Niewendyk for Iginla (or Fleury for Regher). They just release them in a cap move. Trades are a big part of roster management in the NHL. They won't be (as much) after a cap, much like in the NFL and NBA.

Does that mean a cap is the wrong move? No. Just that there will be an adjustment period for fans, especially those who don't already follow the NFL/NBA and don't really understand what a cap does to a league.

[Chubby]

I do think it will be different, though. Yes, turnover is already high. But that's because of trades. See how fans feel when it's just a case of guys getting released.

As an example, you'd mentioned Iginla. In a cap world, chances are the Flames don't trade Niewendyk for Iginla (or Fleury for Regher). They just release them in a cap move. Trades are a big part of roster management in the NHL. They won't be (as much) after a cap, much like in the NFL and NBA.

Does that mean a cap is the wrong move? No. Just that there will be an adjustment period for fans, especially those who don't already follow the NFL/NBA and don't really understand what a cap does to a league.

I dont know, the reason there are no trades and all cuts in the NFL is because of the large signing bonuses that are accelerated (and the bonuses are hige because the contracts aren't guarenteed). Player's just don't get cut willy nilly in the NBA, I think it would be more like that (how teams deal with the cap, not the cap itself)

[Cards4ever]

A 40 million dollar cap?! Oh no! The Leafs won't be able to have a $6 million dollar 3rd line D-man!

[Karim]

Why should the NHL, a league driven almost exclusively by gameday and local revenues (as opposed to national TV deals like the NFL), have artificially equal salary structures?
We know that the large markets will have the resources to be competitive under any system so my concern is strictly for the small market. I want the Flames to have a legitimate shot at signing a Peter Forsberg, for example, when he becomes a free agent. I don't want to see Buffalo have to trade Sidney Crosby just as he becomes the greatest star since Gretsky. I don't want to see Pittsburgh have to play "games" with Marc-Andre Fleury worried that if he gets in 25 games they'll have to dish out millions. Limiting how much a team can spend is not a panacea but it creates opportunities for competitive balance that otherwise wouldn't be there. It also enables smaller teams to retain players they've developed because there won't be inflationary pressure due to unrestricted free agency. Conroy may be resigned at his current salary because there isn't a team out there that can offer him $1 million more due to a lack of cap room. The fact that there won't be much of a TV contract and that the league is gate-driven really doesn't change this in my mind, other than the size of the cap.


Why should Toronto or Detroit, who sell out every night, have to be limited to the same payroll as a team that can't even get fans out to watch the games?
This is hard to answer and the only thing I can think of is that there should be no such expectation. If a team is not supported, maybe the owners have a right to demand relocation. But just because a team can outspend 20 other teams, doesn't mean it should. I know I'm being altruistic when I talk of a league-wide partnership but the NFL understands the importance of everyone making money.


And if they are limited to, say, a $30M cap, where does all those extra millions in revenue go? To the other teams that can barely stay afloat? Straight into the owner's pocket? Don't say "cheaper ticket prices" because we know that won't happen.
I think here we have to make an attempt to balance interests. Owners have a right to make a profit and we can't force them to reinvest in a team when salaries are inflationary beyond existing revenue streams. However, with a cap, the owner takes the team as a "public trust"; I can't see why the league can't enforce a salary floor to ensure no $5 million payrolls. The NFL has revenue sharing and there is no obvious public outcry by the owners in supporting the Chargers or Cardinals. The reason is because everyone is making money due to recognition that the league is successful through partnership. So, if Carolina can stay black with a salary cap, hard work on developing a local fan base, and corporate marketing initiatives, some revenue sharing should be heading there way. However, if they are consistently losing money due to lack of fan support even with salaries under control, then maybe ownership has a right to look at relocating the franchise. There are more medium and small-markets in the NHL than large markets.


Are you prepared for the inevitable byproduct of a cap: huge player turnover on a regular basis? Are you prepared to see teams cut their best players and have little to no year-to-year identy? I live in Ottawa, where the core of the team has stayed together for over five years and the fans love the guys. No way that happens in a cap world.
Yes because for me it's about the logo on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. I'm interested in Stanley Cup championships coming to my city, not having popular player x stay here his entire career. However, it's quite likely that a core of 8-10 popular players would remain a long time with the team.

[Karim]

Short of completely breaking the union (which may be Bettman's ultimate goal), I just don't see how it's possible.
We're heading in that direction and didn't the NFL break the players' union? How else would someone playing NFL football agree on non-guaranteed contracts?

[Tekneek]

The NHL does not really have that high of a turnover rate. Not the NHL roster. The organization may, but not the NHL active roster.

The NFL has become far less interesting to me since the union was broken. No dynasties. It's hard, or even impossible, to keep a team together for very long. If people think the NHL is boring now, just wait until 1/2 or 3/4 of a team is new every season. It will be incredibly boring, and a different team will win the Stanley Cup just about every year. A huge part of NHL history has been the dynasties, such that they have even had sections of the Official NHL Guide & Record Book dedicated to them. While it may make financial sense to never have a dynasty again, it is quite boring from a fan perspective.

[Chubby]

The NHL does not really have that high of a turnover rate. Not the NHL roster. The organization may, but not the NHL active roster.

The NFL has become far less interesting to me since the union was broken. No dynasties. It's hard, or even impossible, to keep a team together for very long. If people think the NHL is boring now, just wait until 1/2 or 3/4 of a team is new every season. It will be incredibly boring, and a different team will win the Stanley Cup just about every year. A huge part of NHL history has been the dynasties, such that they have even had sections of the Official NHL Guide & Record Book dedicated to them. While it may make financial sense to never have a dynasty again, it is quite boring from a fan perspective.

When are you saying the union was broken? 84? (or whenever the strike/scabs played?)

[Johnny93g]

I miss hockey already :(

[Karim]

More thrilling news...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040609.wnhll10/BNStory/Sports/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040609.wnhll10/BNStory/Sports/)
"Somehow people think the players will be intimidated by a lockout," (agent Rich Winters) said. "Well, some of these guys are so glad to get back to their hometowns and get a year off of the bad coaching and brutality of the NHL. They're looking forward to it."

Winters is one of my favourite people in the whole wide world... :rolleyes:


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040611.wbrunt12/BNStory/Sports/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040611.wbrunt12/BNStory/Sports/)
Bill Daly, an NHL vice-president and the league's chief legal counsel. Brian Burke, the former Vancouver Canucks general manager and a former NHL VP for hockey operations. The names are being kicked around, along with the suggestion that a coup isn't entirely out of the question.

Burke would be the ideal NHL Commissioner but with Bettman having veto power over any new CBA and only needing the support of 8 owners to proceed, I don't see a coup as very likely.

[Karim]

dola,

Good article from Larry Brooks...
http://www.nypost.com/sports/22960.htm

This is wrong on so many levels...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/sp/052004nhlhockey&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=1&e=2&a=0&t=&prev=1

[Karim]

double dola,

Damnit, I'll keep this thread alive single-handedly if I have to! ;)

R.J. Umberger, former 1st round pick of the Canucks who was traded to the Rangers, signed today with Philadelphia for the rookie maximum.

Philly also resigned Primeau, an UFA, for $17 million/4 years.

[Maple Leafs]

"Ownership in hockey should be asking the leadership for a vision. What's the future? But they're not saying 'Let's hold those people accountable.' They're saying 'Let's lower salaries to the level where the people who got us here can continue running the game with no vision.' How long are they going to continue to drink the cost-certainty Kool-Aid in order to prop up franchises that maybe shouldn't exist."This is what bugs me. The players (and in this case, the agents) always talk like this. "It's not our fault, it's the owners. All they have to do is stop handing out the big dollars and everything will be fine."

One problem with that: the owners tried that a few times in baseball, and they got slapped with the dreaded "collusion" judgment. Granted that was a somewhat extreme case, but basically the players wants to blame the owners for not working together, then scream bloody murder when they actually do start looking out for the good of the league.

[klayman]

The players are never at fault. Remember back in the 50's when the owners used to screw them. :rolleyes:

I think us fans should form a union. The NHLFA. You can only buy tickets if you are part of the union. You can only buy NHL direct TV if you are part of the union. Then I'd like to see what the players and the owners would do when WE go on strike.

[Simms]

I think us fans should form a union. The NHLFA. You can only buy tickets if you are part of the union. You can only buy NHL direct TV if you are part of the union. Then I'd like to see what the players and the owners would do when WE go on strike.
While its vision is not exactly the same as yours, the NHLFA actually exists:

http://www.nhlfa.com

You sign up, and they send you a couple of surveys a year. The two guys that run it actually got an audience with Bettman at the All-Star game a couple of years ago, and his response was basically, "show me a membership of 75,000, and I'll take you seriously." I think they had about 20k then...not sure what they're at now, but it's a worthy cause, so join up and spread the word.

I actually feel bad for not having posted this before now....truth be told, I don't think of them very often. Usually only the 2-3 times a year I get an e-mail from them. :)

[sterlingice]

This is what bugs me. The players (and in this case, the agents) always talk like this. "It's not our fault, it's the owners. All they have to do is stop handing out the big dollars and everything will be fine."

One problem with that: the owners tried that a few times in baseball, and they got slapped with the dreaded "collusion" judgment. Granted that was a somewhat extreme case, but basically the players wants to blame the owners for not working together, then scream bloody murder when they actually do start looking out for the good of the league.
I don't know how closely you follow MLB, ML, but try listening to any clips you can from the radio or whatnot from 2002. In KC, they tried to pin down the players rep (Jason Grimsley) and a few other of the players with that exact question and then you just get the "well, we're not telling them how to run their business" type lines that, as a fan, just sound like sheer lunacy to me. Real "pass the kool aid" type lines but the scary thing is that if you listened, they actually believed it.

SI

[sterlingice]

While its vision is not exactly the same as yours, the NHLFA actually exists:

http://www.nhlfa.com

You sign up, and they send you a couple of surveys a year. The two guys that run it actually got an audience with Bettman at the All-Star game a couple of years ago, and his response was basically, "show me a membership of 75,000, and I'll take you seriously." I think they had about 20k then...not sure what they're at now, but it's a worthy cause, so join up and spread the word.

I actually feel bad for not having posted this before now....truth be told, I don't think of them very often. Usually only the 2-3 times a year I get an e-mail from them. :)
I joined up. What the hey.

SI

[Karim]

I joined the NHLFA a long time ago but I don't think they're really a force at all. They're still around 21k members.

Anyway, I can't believe the NHL bought this domain name and setup the website. It's all you really need to know on how long this one's going to be...
http://www.nhlcbanews.com/

[bbor]

I'm sick of summer.

Are training camps opening soon?

[Karim]

Carolina in financial trouble...
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/hurricanes/story/1301600p-7423440c.html
"Comerica has sought as collateral personal guarantees from the Karmanos family; stock of Karmanos' software company; arenas valued at $70 million to $80 million in Florida and Michigan; the Canes franchise, valued at more than $100 million by Forbes magazine in 2003; $40 million in revenue over 20 years for the RBC arena naming rights; the arena lease and other assets of the organization."

[Karim]

I'm sick of summer.

Are training camps opening soon?
The Flames just held their prospect camp. Phaneuf was a men among boys... Krahn hurt his knee AGAIN which makes it doubtful he'll ever be a NHL goaltender... Regehr's brother is not going to make the NHL... Our Russian prospects are still in Europe and with the lack of an IIHF transfer agreement in place, really makes you wonder the benefit of drafting Russians early if they're nothing more than projects... oh and the CBA hasn't been resolved. ;)

[Cards4ever]

I'm sick of summer.

Are training camps opening soon?

I'm sure you could rustle up some hockey if you look around! Model camp is going on for the U of M here.

Karim, Leopold was on KFAN this week after coming back from Calgary, he gave you guys major props, he loves playing there.

[Karim]

Cool. If he wants to, he'll be here a long time. He's played about a season and a half with Regehr as his defence partner and together they should form the backbone of the defence for the next several years. He's made amazing progress in a couple years and now I think the team would like to see a bit more offensively.

[bbor]

Carolina in financial trouble...
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/hurricanes/story/1301600p-7423440c.html
"Comerica has sought as collateral personal guarantees from the Karmanos family; stock of Karmanos' software company; arenas valued at $70 million to $80 million in Florida and Michigan; the Canes franchise, valued at more than $100 million by Forbes magazine in 2003; $40 million in revenue over 20 years for the RBC arena naming rights; the arena lease and other assets of the organization."


No wonder they finally dumped Irbe and his 3 mil + a year salary.They were keeping this guy in the ECHL stricktly out of spite.He was traded for Futures to the Blue Jackets.

Ken Klee re-signs with the Leafs....for 2 years at 2 mil per year.

[Karim]

Are there any good hockey publications out there? I used to subscribe to the Hockey News but since it was based in Ontario by the time it got to Calgary, there no longer was much news and the features weren't worth the subscription fee. The internet does a pretty good job of coverage but is there a quality hockey magazine out there?

[sachmo71]

Wha? Klee get's 2 mil per? Guess the Leafs are hoping there is no cap.

[bbor]

Wha? Klee get's 2 mil per? Guess the Leafs are hoping there is no cap.


I thought that waas cheap?

[sachmo71]

I thought that waas cheap?

Hmmm. I guess if he really brings something.

[Simms]

If Klee even brings 75% of what he brought last year, $2 mil is cheap. Nice deal for the Leafs, IMO.

[bbor]

Hmmm. I guess if he really brings something.

He's good enough to be playing on the USA WC team...If that means anything?

[sachmo71]

He's good enough to be playing on the USA WC team...If that means anything?

Is that saracasm? :D

[bbor]

Is that saracasm? :D


Mayhaps ;)

But the US did win the last WC no?

[Karim]

According to TSN, it's $2.5 million/year for Klee. That's too much. They've now committed $29 million in salaries next season for 5 players. I guess the organization is banking on grandfathering in the case of a hard cap or a luxury tax with no teeth.

[Karim]

dola,

Here's an article on how to revamp the NHL. I like the reallignment but other than that...
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/montgomery/2004-06-16-montgomery_x.htm

Here are a couple of good article about the draft...
http://www.hockeyjournal.com/bruins/200405/bradley18.html
http://www.nhl.com/futures/2004draft/wide_open061104.html

[Draft Dodger]

dola,

Here's an article on how to revamp the NHL. I like the reallignment but other than that...
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/montgomery/2004-06-16-montgomery_x.htm

I hate stuff like this that really doesn't seem to be done with any thought whatsoever. Contraction isn't going to happen, unless a team folds due to financial problems. An original six division? gag me.

Personally, I'd like to see a return to the format of two conferences with 2 divisions each. (I'll allow the NHL to keep "East" and "West" Conference names, but I'm bringing back all the cool division names...and, really, I think ALL sports should have divisions named after their founding fathers).

Like the idiot in the link, I'd cut down the season...I love hockey, and the season is just to fucking long. 70-72 games is plenty. 60 wouldn't break my heart, to be honest, but that's too extreme. In the 4 division structure (approx 8 teams per division), the bulk of the games would be in your own division. let's say 6 games against each division opponent (42 total), 3 games against the conference's other division (24 total). I would drastically cut inter-conference play, but not cut it entirely - you'd play one of the other conference's divisions in alternating years (so, the Avs would play the Bruins only every other year). That's 8 more games, 74 total. I think this would really maximize the inter-division rivalries, while limiting the LA v Fla snoozers. You'd also have less cross-country travelling - maybe you could squeeze games closer together so that we don't have 19 months of regular season hockey (it is 19 months, right?)

I know the divisions will be large, but that's ok, because we're also revamping the playoff structure. No more of the 1-8 seeding. It'll be back to the old days of the top 4 teams in each division making the playoffs; after 2 rounds, the two teams that get out of the division finals go to the conference finals. The regular season will MEAN something (60% of your games will be against teams you are directly battling for a playoff spot). Will we have teams with higher points than some playoff teams get left out? sure. but you'll get playoff matchups that mean something each and every year. Do we really want to see Mtl/TB and Cal/SJ? or do we want Cal/Edm & and Bos/Mtl every year? I'll take the latter, thank you.

my structure:

Adams:
Boston
Montreal
Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Carolina
Washington
EXPANSION

Patrick:
Philadelphia
New Jersey
New York
New York
Pittsburgh
Atlanta
Florida
Tampa

Norris:
Detroit
St Louis
Nashville
Columbus
Chicago
Calgary
Edmonton
Minnesota

Smythe:
San Jose
Los Angeles
Anaheim
Phoenix
Vancouver
Colorado
Dallas
EXPANSION

yeah, room there for 2 expansion teams, to balance out the schedule. at least one should go to a Canadian city (Hamilton? Winnipeg again? One of the Maritime cities?). Anyways, that's my plan - I want to see rivalries. I want to see teams that hate each other play a LOT. I want to see GM's afraid to trade within the division, for fear of having to face a player they traded away 6 times a year, plus the playoffs.

oh yeah, almost forgot. We're getting rid of this silly "1 point for OT loss" crap. 2 pts for a win, one for a tie. OT becomes a full 20 minute period (still sudden death). You want to play for a tie? Go ahead, but the chance that you're going to make a mistake and leave with no points is now pretty significant. The words "shootout" and "overtime" do NOT go together.

[Karim]

Funny, I just posted on another board about how I hated the NHL for taking away the traditional conference and division names.

~~~
I know this is very biased and I know it's completely unfair because it favours the Canadian teams and will never happen but I want to dream for a while.

In my dream world, I'd change the draft. The worst Ontario team gets to pick the first Ontario born player. The worst Quebec team gets to pick the first Quebec/Maritime born player. The worst Western Canadian team gets to pick the first Western Canadian player. The worst American team gets to pick the first American player. Any team could pass and select a European if they chose. Each team would hold a veto so if Toronto wanted to select Mike Modano first overall, Minnesota could veto them. If they weren't interested in Modano, Toronto could select him but then Minnesota would be able to select from Ontario with their first pick. If you selected a European, any other team could select from your backyard.

It's like an exaggerated version of how Montreal used to always get the best Quebec player during the days of the Original Six.

This year's draft order would then be:

1 - Pittsburgh
2 - Edmonton
3 - Montreal
4 - Ottawa
----------------
5 - Chicago ...

So yeah, it's completely unfair. :D Ottawa jumps up 21 spots, Montreal jumps up 15 spots, Edmonton jumps up 12 spots and Chicago is the net loser dropping down 3 spots.

Well, it would be cool in a PC game if you could customize the draft rules...

[Draft Dodger]

Funny, I just posted on another board about how I hated the NHL for taking away the traditional conference and division names.


it just seems like such a no-brainer to keep these. The NHL supposedly did it to make it easier on the casual fan...does the casual fan give a rat's ass? The names gave the league character, and it was a great opportunity to honor those who contributed to hockey. if I'm ever hockey commish, that's the first thing I fix.

[Draft Dodger]

In my dream world, I'd change the draft. The worst Ontario team gets to pick the first Ontario born player...

I've thought about this too...but you'd have to regionalize it in the US too (New England, Midwest) etc to make it fair, which means you're going to end up with a lot of Europeans on the Fla / SoCal teams. :)

[sachmo71]

it just seems like such a no-brainer to keep these. The NHL supposedly did it to make it easier on the casual fan...does the casual fan give a rat's ass? The names gave the league character, and it was a great opportunity to honor those who contributed to hockey. if I'm ever hockey commish, that's the first thing I fix.

I have to admit, when I was first getting into hockey, it was confusing for me.

[Fidatelo]

I have to admit, when I was first getting into hockey, it was confusing for me.
As someone who grew up with it, this surprises me. What about it makes it confusing? Aren't division names just labels? Couldn't we call each division A B C D etc, what difference would it make? In the end you just have to associate teams with the label they are under.

Please don't take the above as an insult, I'm asking this in all honestly.

[sachmo71]

As someone who grew up with it, this surprises me. What about it makes it confusing? Aren't division names just labels? Couldn't we call each division A B C D etc, what difference would it make? In the end you just have to associate teams with the label they are under.

Please don't take the above as an insult, I'm asking this in all honestly.

Because it was unfamiliar. Sure they are just names, but my football brain found it much easier to identify with geographic divisions rather then names of people I knew nothing about.

Obviously, I would have learned them in time, but I think it was much quicker for me after they changed them because I had a frame of reference.

[Fidatelo]

Because it was unfamiliar. Sure they are just names, but my football brain found it much easier to identify with geographic divisions rather then names of people I knew nothing about.

Obviously, I would have learned them in time, but I think it was much quicker for me after they changed them because I had a frame of reference.
I guess that makes sense. I guess with Hockey being my first sport, and my US geography being poor, combined with the inevitable inconsitincies in the divisions, I've never really thought of the divisions as anything more than labels. Thanks for answering.

[sachmo71]

I guess that makes sense. I guess with Hockey being my first sport, and my US geography being poor, combined with the inevitable inconsitincies in the divisions, I've never really thought of the divisions as anything more than labels. Thanks for answering.

Thanks for asking! :D

[Maple Leafs]

Since we're restructuring the NHL:

- merge TB and FLA - one team called Florida (maybe they play half their home games in each city?)
- merge ANA and SJ - one team called California
- fold Carolina - sorry, it was just a bad idea
- fold Atlanta, Nashville and Columbus - sorry guys, I know it's not fair but the NHL is dying and we just can't wait around for you to turn into real markets

That reduces us to 24 teams. I kept Phoenix because of Gretzky, but twist my arm and they could go. I kept the Islanders and Penguins because I'm a sucker for history. I didn't expand, even to Canada, because there's just too many teams as it is.

Then I can steal DD's divisions and they turn nicely into six teams each. I moved Washington back to the Patrick, but otherwise left things as is.

Adams:
Boston
Montreal
Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Florida

Patrick:
Philadelphia
New Jersey
New York
New York
Pittsburgh
Washington

Norris:
Detroit
St Louis
Chicago
Calgary
Edmonton
Minnesota

Smythe:
California
Los Angeles
Phoenix
Vancouver
Colorado
Dallas

[Karim]

Phoenix won't be going anywhere because of their brand new building. Unfortunately, I read that it's located outside of Phoenix and that they only sold out the first couple games.

Atlanta has a great young team and Nashville is on its way but I don't know about the support.

Columbus stays. It was a good strategy to put a team in SJ where there were no professional sports as is the case in Columbus. Columbites? Columbians? Columbusians? :D are supporting the team from all indications.

Carolina is in serious trouble as is Pittsburgh. I don't foresee any contraction but I can see both franchises relocating but none to Hamilton as the Leafs would never go for it. Winnipeg apparently has been contacted by 5 NHL teams inquiring about its new arena. http://www.truenorthproject.mb.ca/ Pittsburgh isn't getting public funds for a new arena while there's a brand new one sitting in Winnipeg.... Hmmm..... It won't work though if the new CBA is not small-market friendly. Heck, if there's no salary cap Calgary owners have already indicated they'll sell and Edmonton won't be far behind.

[Draft Dodger]

Columbus ranked 15th in attendance last year - better than Boston, New Jersey and Anaheim, to name a few. Not bad for a team that only won 25 games. I don't think of Columbus as a hockey town, they have a stupid name, and terribly ugly uniforms...but you have to admit the town is supporting them.

Can we move Carolina back to Hartford? I didn't follow hockey well enough to know if the move was based out of financial need, or more like the North Stars were an owner moved a viable franchise just for some more cash. I would give Atlanta & Nashville a chance, because they both have teams that can possible contend in a few years (especially Atl). But Atlanta doesn't support it's damn baseball team that's only won the division 97 times in a row...will they really support hockey?

[sachmo71]

Columbians

[Karim]

I have done a little research on the Winnipeg story and I'd say it's a longshot at best. The MTS Centre will hold 15,015 for the Manitoba Moose of the AHL. This limited seating will only support a NHL franchise if there is a significant salary cap and extensive revenue sharing. Also, will Winnipegers support current NHL ticket prices? At best, NHL ticket prices will remain the same but they will not be substantially reduced. Winnipegers weren't setting any attendance records at 1996 ticket prices. At a population of approximately 700,000 will there be enough demand? Furthermore, although the downtown core is apparently undergoing a rejuvenation, it is not a corporate centre. Will there be enough corporate investment to sell 50 luxury boxes and NHL-priced rink boards and advertising? It's likely there would need to be some public investment to sustain the franchise such as tax concessions for the building but the lack of these type of initiatives were one of the reasons the Jets left in the first place.

There has no doubt been inquiries made by a team in the southeastern US. However, the Deputy Mayor has hampered matters by going public way to early in the process. One phone call inquiring about the arena and level of civic support does not mean a NHL team is on its way.

I'd love to have the Jets, Nordiques and Whalers back but even with a tailor-made CBA for small markets, it might be unfeasible.

[Karim]

dola,

TSN's UFA list...
http://tsn.ca/nhl/feature.asp?fid=9229

[sterlingice]

I know KC has a new $250M downtown arena they're building and they're trying to attract an NHL team. That may factor into things.

SI

[Schedule Junkie]

We're getting rid of this silly "1 point for OT loss" crap. 2 pts for a win, one for a tie. OT becomes a full 20 minute period (still sudden death). You want to play for a tie? Go ahead, but the chance that you're going to make a mistake and leave with no points is now pretty significant. The words "shootout" and "overtime" do NOT go together. The idea behind it was to encourage teams to try a bit harder to win, since there was an extra point at stake.

While I agree with you that the OT loss point should go, to better encourage going for a win I'd instead suggest adopting the European football system: 3 points for a win, 1 point for a tie. Doesn't matter whether you win it in OT or not, you get the same number of points.

The difference between a win and a tie is much more pronounced under this system and thus it makes a win much more valuable.

I'd leave OT in the regular season as either a 5-minute period or scrap it altogether. Ties really don't bother me that much.

[Karim]

I don't mind ties either but apparently we're in the minority. If we go the route of 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie, I'd scrap OT completely.

[Karim]

dola,

Insider information from a respected poster on another forum:

"Without being able to reveal a whole lot of details, I can declare somewhat confidently that the WHA will not be happening this fall.

It is confirmed that both the Jacksonville and Orlando franchises will not be sold to the Calgary oilman as was reported a week or so ago, and will remain in the new yet to be named "A" level league in the Southern States.

That leaves 4 teams for the WHA including one that has no lease agreement with a building....Halifax.

Even had the Florida franchises been able to get a deal done, there was a pretty big caveat attached that would of assured they both would have stayed in the same league for at least one year anyways.

You heard it here first...the WHA was doomed and I see no way it can go ahead at this point. A bad development for some NHL players that were looking at the idea of making a couple million bucks while the CBA talks were ongoing. Good. One less option means a bit more heat on the union to get something done."

[Karim]

double dola,

2004 NHL Entry Draft Contest

1. With the 1st selection overall, does Washington draft Ovechkin (1 point), Malkin (2 points) or trade down (3 points)?

2. Name a team involved in the first trade of any kind. (3 points)

3. Who is the first Canadian-born player selected (2 points) and by what team (1 point)?

4. Who is the first American-born player selected (2 points) and by what team (1 point)?

5. Name a player who will be selected in the 2nd round. (3 points)

BONUS: Name the player your favourite team will select in the first round. (1 point)


~~~~
I'll go first.

1. Ovechkin
2. Rangers
3. Andrew Ladd, Chicago
4. Al Montoya, Phoenix
5. C Bruce Graham

Calgary, F Lauri Korpikoski

[Schedule Junkie]

I'd cut down the season...I love hockey, and the season is just to f***ing long. 70-72 games is plenty. 60 wouldn't break my heart, to be honest, but that's too extreme. While I don't disagree with you, it may surprise you to learn that, though hockey seems to run forever, the regular season actually takes less time to play than MLB's. The baseball regular season runs 183 days; the 2003/04 NHL regular season opened on Oct. 8 and ended on Apr. 4, a total of 180 days.

What really adds to hockey's season is the two months of playoffs; baseball's playoffs in contrast run only 4 weeks.

The NHL regular season is actually shorter now than it was a couple of years ago, and is the same length it was during the 1980's. The NHL calendar first took a big jump in the 1992-93 season, and then ran around 192 days for the next several years (excluding the winter Olympic years, when the break for the Olympics distorted the normal flow of the season), with 1999-2000 being the last season with 192 days. In 2000-01 it was trimmed to 187 days, and in 2002-03 it was cut again to the present 180 days. That's 12 days shorter than it used to be.

In comparison, from 1973-73 through to 1990-91 the regular season ran 179-181 days long, while in the classic 6-team, 70 game era it was normally 165-166 days long.

[Karim]

Confirmation from TSN that the WHA is likely dead for this upcoming season:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=88202

[sachmo71]

1. Trade Down
2. Chicago
3a. Cam Barker
3b. Columbus
4a. Robbie Schremp
4b. Florida
5. Brett Carlson

Bonus: Mike Green to Dallas at 16 (trade up)

A guy can dream, can't he? Plus, Hicks is the ultimate parrot. Tampa won the cup with a strong corps of young players and some solid vets. Hicks will move this way, and so trade up to get a good Defenseman.

[sachmo71]

Dola, draft busts are always fun to discuss...

http://www.forecaster.ca/hockeynews/hockey/extras.cgi?2004NHLDraft-FirstRoundBusts

Looking at 16 and 17, while the Oilers did pass on some good players to take a couple of "busts", since Edmonton can't afford to hold onto their star players, would it have made much of a difference? Stupid hockey!

[klayman]

Dola, draft busts are always fun to discuss...

http://www.forecaster.ca/hockeynews/hockey/extras.cgi?2004NHLDraft-FirstRoundBusts


Good stuff, sach. Thanks for the article.

[Draft Dodger]

Steve Kelly's played the last couple years with the AHL Manchester Monarchs. I liked him - a good, feisty player. Maybe TOO feisty. But I could see him doing decently if given a chance. But, looks like he's reluctantly headed to Germany next year.

[Draft Dodger]

dola...re: Danny Geoffrian..."He later scored 20 goals in a Winnipeg Jets uniform but wound up finishing his career in Japan"

Japan? I had no idea.

[bbor]

Awesome...i love reading about draft busts.

[Karim]

This is classic stuff...
http://www.thebrushback.com/nhllabor_full.htm

[Karim]

dola,

The index of the page sachmo listed has a lot of great stuff, including an all-time draft list for every team...
http://www.forecaster.ca/thestar/hockey/extras.cgi?2004NHLDraft-Index

[Karim]

double dola,

It looks like some players have started the European exodus. These are all Group II RFAs:

Maxim Afinogenov, Pavel Datsyuk, Andrei Markov, Alexander Khavanov and Artem Chubarov have all signed with Moscow Dynamo. Niko Kapanen has signed with Zug in Sweden. All of these contracts will become void however, if a NHL CBA is in place and new contracts are negotiated with their respective teams.

[Karim]

triple dola,

It seems NHL VP Bill Daly is the moderate in negotiations and there is some talk of a $45-50 million soft cap, naturally denied by the NHL. Brooks is right that the small-markets should be more afraid of Detroit, Colorado, Philadelphia, New York and Toronto than the NHLPA. Those teams could throw a wrench into proceedings.
http://nypost.com/sports/23341.htm

[sterlingice]

triple dola,

It seems NHL VP Bill Daly is the moderate in negotiations and there is some talk of a $45-50 million soft cap, naturally denied by the NHL. Brooks is right that the small-markets should be more afraid of Detroit, Colorado, Philadelphia, New York and Toronto than the NHLPA. Those teams could throw a wrench into proceedings.
http://nypost.com/sports/23341.htm
But, of course. That's how it is in baseball and what screwed things over in 1994. But there, it's gotten so bad that in 2002, it was George against the world because everyone was sick and tired of his money grubbing.

SI

[bbor]

Karim how come your script is all funky?

[Karim]

I'm playing around with Comic Sans MS...

Anyone other than sach going to take a shot at the draft contest? I know, prizes.....

[bbor]

Anyone other than sach going to take a shot at the draft contest? I know, prizes.....

I'm gonna enter....just waiting till it's closer to the sctual date to see if i can here any juicy rumours:)

[Karim]

Ok, lots of good articles:

Lockout leading to organizational layoffs...
http://www.thn.com/en/headlines/detail.asp?id=23835&cat=954945254360

An overview of New Jersey's successful scouting & drafting...
http://newsobserver.com/sports/story/1356186p-7479346c.html

Some potential NHLPA money-making & public relations initiatives...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1087596611096&call_pageid=1044442959412&col=1044442957278

Finland may dominate this year's draft...
http://www2.nhl.com/futures/2004draft/finns062104.html

Top defencemen will be scare this year...
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2004-06-20-woodlief-draft-d_x.htm

Longshots in this year's draft...
http://www.canoe.com/Slam040609/nhl_draft-mck.html

Naslund may be done as a Canuck...
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20040620_113049_4572

[Sun Tzu]

This thread needs more calzone.

[Chief Rum]

Hey Maple Leafs,

On the idea of merging Anaheim and San Jose, I'm not going to take issue with merging/contraction as I have in the past, because it's been there, done that, but one thing I gotta say.

Let me give you an analogy. What say we were in a position to have to merge two teams in your neck of the woods. Let's say Toronto and Ottawa. You think that would fly? I think not, since those two very disparate fan bases are not only devoted to their own teams, but quite belligernet to each other, right?

Well, that's essentially what you do when you combine a SoCal city like Anaheim with a NorCal city like San Jose. I realize Canada is huge, so maybe you think Cali is small, but I assure you, it's not. :)

Geographically, SoCal and NorCal share a state government, and that's about it. And for the most part, especially with regards to sports, we hate each other. Asking San Jose and Anaheim fans to join together to support a merged "California" team is like asking you as a Maple Leafs fan to support a merge with Ottawa, or Montreal, or Detroit, all of which i know you would find disturbing and completely undoable.

I just thought I would let you know that, in case you didn't know just how much of a spearation there is between the two halves of California. It makes far more sense, geographically and popluation-base-wise, to combine the two SoCal teams, if you were so inclined (I am against that, of course, but that's another discussion ;) ).

CR

[Blade6119]

Phoenix is open to merging...whatever gives us some talent :(

[Maple Leafs]

I just thought I would let you know that, in case you didn't know just how much of a spearation there is between the two halves of California. It makes far more sense, geographically and popluation-base-wise, to combine the two SoCal teams, if you were so inclined (I am against that, of course, but that's another discussion ;) ).
Yeah, I realize there are bigger issues at play. The "merger" idea just seemed like a kinder option than outright killing one of the teams.

[Fidatelo]

This thread needs more calzone.
This thread has a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!

[bbor]

CR..Glad to see you're still reading this thread

I was wondering your opinion on the Gerber deal?

Sounds like the Ducks go the shaft?

Also what do you think about losing your GM?

[Karim]

Yeah, I got no life.

Wojtek Wolski, a potential first rounder on Saturday, charged with assault...
http://www.canoe.ca/Slam040622/col_simmons-sun.html

Guerin could be headed to the Panthers...
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/hockey/stars/stories/062204dnspoheikacol.a5508.html

Duhatschek's Top 20...
http://globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040622.wduha22/BNStory/Sports/

Bob McKenzie's Top 50...
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/draft/feature.asp?fid=9467

[bbor]

Karim..you looking forward to the draft at all? :D

[sterlingice]

I really hope the Hawks move into the top spot because otherwise, I think they just foolishly squander their pick. But you really can't go wrong with Ovechkin from everything I've read. Otherwise, I see them trading down and getting fleeced or just going with a bad pick. Can't say I have a lot of faith.

SI

[bbor]

Hawks have nothing to give for the 1st pick....I can only think of Ruutu as the only player Washington could possibly want,and Tallon has said he is untouchable.

What could they give up that Washington would want SI?

[sterlingice]

Hawks have nothing to give for the 1st pick....I can only think of Ruutu as the only player Washington could possibly want,and Tallon has said he is untouchable.

What could they give up that Washington would want SI?
You hit right on it. I can't figure out anyone with any value under contract that isn't part of their "young core" they're trying to build. But there are still these persistent rumors. (For the record, I couldn't even see them doing something stupid like trading Ruutu to move up into that spot)

SI

[bbor]

I think Ovechkin is a perfect replacement for Jagr...so i can't see Washington dealing the pick unless they get blown away by an offer.

[sachmo71]

Rumor from the Dallas Morning News is Guerin to Florida from for the 7th overall pick.

I don't buy it. What do they want with a 9.5 million power forward without any power?

[bbor]

Keenan needs a whipping boy :)

[Chief Rum]

CR..Glad to see you're still reading this thread

I was wondering your opinion on the Gerber deal?

Sounds like the Ducks go the shaft?

Also what do you think about losing your GM?

Well, it's Carolina, so it's a high third rounder. :)

Seriously, I don't know enough about Melic to make the call on that deal. I know that, since Gerbs started as an eighth rounder and we have a kid who is supposed to be really good in Bryzgalov ready to replace him with the big club, getting a young defensman and a third rounder for Gerbs ain't all that bad for the team, nor does it really affect how we will finish next year (assuming there is one).

Could we have gotten better? Yeah, unfortunately, I think so. I think Gerbs could have been sold as the answer to a team's goalkeeping woes and ogtten us a little better talent.

Coates has been around a long time, so I know he knows his hockey. I'm not too concerned about the management guys. We got some good hockey folks in there. But I am very worried about Disney. We neeed another Artie Moreno to come along and buy the Ducks because word is Mickey Mouse is cutting the budget again. :(

I'm not sure Murray being here would make a difference in that, so I say kudos to him moving to a Cup contender, a coaching role, and his family.

CR

[Maple Leafs]

I'm not sure Murray being here would make a difference in that, so I say kudos to him moving to a Cup contender, a coaching role, and his family.
In general, the news has not been met well in Ottawa. The fans are... well, angry wouldn't be the right word, because that implies a level of sophistication that we don't quite have in this city. Maybe a better term would be "not as convinced of the genius of this move as they had prepared themselves to be".

The media is, of course, unaimous in their praise of the move, even though none of them ever mentioned Murray as a candidate before the announcement.

[Draft Dodger]

what about the Hasek rumors? how is that going over in Ottawa?

[Chief Rum]

In general, the news has not been met well in Ottawa. The fans are... well, angry wouldn't be the right word, because that implies a level of sophistication that we don't quite have in this city. Maybe a better term would be "not as convinced of the genius of this move as they had prepared themselves to be".

The media is, of course, unaimous in their praise of the move, even though none of them ever mentioned Murray as a candidate before the announcement.

Just remind the fans that at least Murray was a part of two different organizations that actually got to the Finals. ;)

Martin was a very good coach. It can't be easy to follow in his footsteps for just about anyone.

And what's really funny is that Murray will have to match Martin's amazing regular season success to avoid being pilloried, and then do better in the postseason to make the fans forget Martin (of course, the latter shouldn't be as hard).

CR

[Maple Leafs]

what about the Hasek rumors? how is that going over in Ottawa?Surprisingly mixed, actually. To me, it's a no-brainer: you have a championship calibre team, you need a goalie, he's the best available... go get him. But for some reason fans here aren't really sold.

The most common reasons:
- He'd cost too much (But wait, isn't Melnyk supposed to be a billionaire with cash to burn? Or was that just a PR smokescreen?)
- He's old and might not be that good anymore (None of the guys they have now are good either)
- He'd take playing time away from the young guys like Prusek and Emery (Apparently developing a young goalie is more important than winning a Cup)
- He'd be a cancer in a great dressing room (Actually, the Sens room hasn't been "great" in years -- Bonk and to a lesser extent Havlat are poison)

So for some reason, the chance to land a Cup-winning hall-of-famer with something to prove doesn't have Ottawa fans dancing in the streets. I don't get it.

And what's really funny is that Murray will have to match Martin's amazing regular season success to avoid being pilloried, and then do better in the postseason to make the fans forget Martin (of course, the latter shouldn't be as hard).
Yes and no. He'll certainly need to better Martin's post-season record (remember, Murray's been out of the second round only once in 14 years of coaching). But one thing that fans here have figured out is that regular season doesn't mean much. If he can lead the team to a 95-point season, which would be good for about sixth place, fans here would be perfectly happy as long as that's followed by a playoff run.

[Karim]

Karim..you looking forward to the draft at all? :D
LMAO!

[bbor]

ML......Melnyk used to have money to burn....but his stock went for a shit.Biovale is getting beaten down.

[Karim]

Todd Bertuzzi sighting...
http://www.ackthpt.com/bertuzzi_punch.htm

[Tekneek]

Todd Bertuzzi sighting...
http://www.ackthpt.com/bertuzzi_punch.htm

Classy!

[sachmo71]

I didn't expect this:

Stars update: Jason Arnott re-signed to one-year contract and Jon
Klemm re-signed to two-year deal.


Maybe Klemm, because he was one of our better defensemen. That probably spells the end for Matvichuk, who will now go to Detroit or Colorado and play pretty well. Arnott I was sure they would let walk. I really like him, but he's streaky.

[Karim]

Some articles for this morning:

Walker says no cap... Preds having problems signing Suter...
http://tennessean.com/sports/predators/archives/04/06/53152159.shtml?Element_ID=53152159

Gomez may be available... Could be seeking $5 million...
http://nypost.com/sports/devils/26281.htm

Tough choices ahead in Nashville...
http://tennessean.com/sports/predators/archives/04/06/52881146.shtml?Element_ID=52881146

Bourque vs. Coffey debate... Bruins may be interested in Conroy...
http://bruins.bostonherald.com/bruins/view.bg?articleid=31709

Sabres looking at defence on Saturday...
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040623/1048177.asp

Leafs really don't care what the post-CBA landscape looks like...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1087942211256&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064

This sort of thing gets you shot in Edmonton...
http://www.littlemadole.com/pool/images/10.jpg

[sachmo71]

Gomez wan't $5 million? Yikes!

[bbor]

Karim=having a slow work day :)

[Simms]

Not exactly hockey-related, but was any of the Toronto contingent here listening to the FAN during morning drive?

I won the 8:50 quiz. :D

[Cards4ever]

What did you win for a prize?

[bbor]

Not exactly hockey-related, but was any of the Toronto contingent here listening to the FAN during morning drive?

I won the 8:50 quiz. :D

Woohoo....grats Simms......What were the questions?

[Cards4ever]

I realize this isn't huge news for everyone, but it is here in Minnesota!

Dean Blais has left UND to become a assistant at Columbus

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/9007366.htm

[sachmo71]

Interesting...

Stars acquire defenseman Shawn Belle from St. Louis for goaltender
Jason Bacashihua.


I really like Bacashihua, but we have Smith and Ellis waiting to take over behind Turco also. So we get a really nice prospect who could be a powerplay leader for us in a year or two, although I thought Daley was going to step up.
Anyway, Cash should be starting for the Blues in a year or two, and he may be the guy you've been hoping for...

[Karim]

I think this was a good deal for the Stars. Belle looks like a sure-fire player who has very good size and great speed.

[sachmo71]

I think Cash might be a franchise goalie some day. We just have too many of them.

I'm looking forward to seeing Belle play.

[Cards4ever]

I think Cash might be a franchise goalie some day. We just have too many of them.

I'm looking forward to seeing Belle play.


At this point, wouldn't you be happy to see anybody play?!

[sachmo71]

Touche, Cards. :)

[Karim]

Just in case anyone is still interested...

2004 NHL Entry Draft Contest

1. With the 1st selection overall, does Washington draft Ovechkin (1 point), Malkin (2 points) or trade down (3 points)?

2. Name a team involved in the first trade of any kind. (3 points)

3. Who is the first Canadian-born player selected (2 points) and by what team (1 point)?

4. Who is the first American-born player selected (2 points) and by what team (1 point)?

5. Name a player who will be selected in the 2nd round. (3 points)

BONUS: Name the player your favourite team will select in the first round. (1 point) Of course, the Leafs don't have a 1st round pick. :D Choose your 2nd favourite team or any player the Leafs might get.

[Coder]

Just in case anyone is still interested...

2004 NHL Entry Draft Contest

1. With the 1st selection overall, does Washington draft Ovechkin (1 point), Malkin (2 points) or trade down (3 points)?

2. Name a team involved in the first trade of any kind. (3 points)

3. Who is the first Canadian-born player selected (2 points) and by what team (1 point)?

4. Who is the first American-born player selected (2 points) and by what team (1 point)?

5. Name a player who will be selected in the 2nd round. (3 points)

BONUS: Name the player your favourite team will select in the first round. (1 point) Of course, the Leafs don't have a 1st round pick. :D Choose your 2nd favourite team or any player the Leafs might get.


You want this by PM or should I post here?

[Coder]

Dola, seeing as you guys posted in the thread :)

1) Ovechkin
2) Phoenix Coyotes (Lots of teams covet the goalies)
3) Cam Barker, Chicago Blackhawks
4) Al Montoya, Florida Panthers
5) Carl Söderberg

~

I have two favourite teams.. I'm Swedish, so I'm allowed :).

At 10, Atlanta Thrashers will select Robbie Schremp, who's seriously undervalued by THN.
At 26, Vancouver Canucks will be looking for a defenseman. If they haven't moved up to pick Valabik, I think they'll go for Jeff Schultz.

[Maple Leafs]

Not exactly hockey-related, but was any of the Toronto contingent here listening to the FAN during morning drive?

I won the 8:50 quiz. :DI missed this the first time around. Congratulations.

I was in Toronto over the weekend and annoyed my wife by listening to the Fan pretty much exclusively. Ottawa is a beautiful town but God, I miss a real sports media.

(Now if you'd won Lunchbag Letdown I'd be really impressed....)

[Maple Leafs]

1. They take Ovechkin
2. The Panthers
3. Barker, to Chicago
4. Montoya, to Rangers
5. Johan Fransson
6. I refuse to name a #2 team, so I'm taking a bigtime shot in the dark on the Leafs at #90 overall: goalie Kyle Moir

[Coder]

Hehe.. I wrote Panthers first.. I think that Keenan is "keen" to put his mark on the team early. However, I think someone will move up before Florida is on the clock. Phoenix are pretty well stocked with prospects and can afford to trade their pick.

[Maple Leafs]

Here's my draft day trivia question. See if you can get it without looking it up:

There hasn't been a defenceman taken #1 overall since 1996. However, in the mid-90's there was a stretch where four out of five #1's were defencemen: Hamrlik ('92), Jovanovski (94), Berard (95) and Phillips (96). The question: prior to Hamrlik, who was the last junior defenceman to be taken #1 overall at the NHL draft?

[Draft Dodger]

Here's my draft day trivia question. See if you can get it without looking it up:

There hasn't been a defenceman taken #1 overall since 1996. However, in the mid-90's there was a stretch where four out of five #1's were defencemen: Hamrlik ('92), Jovanovski (94), Berard (95) and Phillips (96). The question: prior to Hamrlik, who was the last junior defenceman to be taken #1 overall at the NHL draft?

I would guess Gord Kluzak.

[Coder]

Fact that Columbus traded wasn't that much of a surprise, but the fact that Carolina did the trade does.. Ladd?

[bbor]

Damn...i missed the contest.

Who the F did Phoenix draft???? A 2nd rounder guy for sure.

ML...you and your damn trivia gives me headaches:D

[sachmo71]

Trivia: Gainey?

[Tekneek]

Damn...i missed the contest.

Who the F did Phoenix draft???? A 2nd rounder guy for sure.

Not a definite second rounder. Of course, the selection of Blake Wheeler brings this thread back on topic for the FOFC.

From TSN :

5. Phoenix - BLAKE WHEELER, RW, Breck

Lowdown: Solid all-around athlete was Minnesota's leading scorer with 100 points in 30 games and led Breck High School to the Class A title. Rangy winger needs to fill out his 6-3 1/2 frame but also won a state championship in football as a tight end. An above-average skater for a player his size, he is solid at both ends of the rink. He's ranked 17th among North American prospects by NHL Central Scouting but easily could slip into the second round.

[Chubby]

Just what the Sabres need, another winger :rolleyes:

[Draft Dodger]

"It's a great team,'' Barker said of the Blackhawks during an interview with TSN. "I've heard a lot about the organization, nothing but good things.''

sure.

[Ryan S]

Who the F did Phoenix draft???? A 2nd rounder guy for sure.
From ESPN.com

The Phoenix Coyotes raised more than a few eyebrows by picking high-schooler Blake Wheeler with the fifth overall pick. Not only is his jump (from 17th overall in Central Scouting's rankings of North American skaters) surprising, but he's only entering his senior year of high school in the fall.


"I got the impression that they were trying to pick me with the fifth pick in the second round, and that would have been great. I got no indication they'd pick me with the fifth pick in the first," Wheeler said. "My dad was the most excited. My mouth was hanging open, and he was doing all the yelling. Believe me, we were shocked."



Wheeler, a right winger who also plays football for the Breck School in Minnesota, won't turn 18 until Aug. 31 and will join the University of Minnesota for the 2005-06 season. If he plays all four seasons for the Gophers, he won't be in a Coyotes jersey until the 2009-10 season

[Cards4ever]

Blake Wheeler will probably be playing in the USHL next year and then the U of Minnesota the year after, he has a huge upside, you don't find guys with that size with the skating and stickhandling skills he has. This kid was one of the highest sought after recruits in college hockey. From what Gretzky is doing, looks like he is following the NJ model and taking college players, he has Taffe, Westrum, Ballard and still in school he has Matt Jones from UND.

Chubby, Buffalo's problem is signing the picks they draft, they haven't talked to last years pick Vanek at all and just recently signed there 02 pick or they would have lost him. Stafford is good player, lots of grit and isn't afraid to take punishment to get to the net.

[Cards4ever]

Dola, he is a old 17, he will turn 18 August 31st, the Wild took AJ Thelen who started college at 18.

If Crosby had been available, don't you think he would have been taken right away?

[Draft Dodger]

21. Colorado - WOJTEK WOLSKI, LW, Brampton

seems cool. I wonder who we will trade him for?
:)

[sachmo71]

(#) Dallas and New Jersey trade picks, (^) Dallas trades picks with San Jose


:(

[Cards4ever]

I wonder why they didn't want Zajac.

[bbor]

"It's a great team,'' Barker said of the Blackhawks during an interview with TSN. "I've heard a lot about the organization, nothing but good things.''

sure.

I'd be worried about this guy right away....he will be a candidate for the NHL drug testing policy after those comments:D

[bbor]

Dola

21. Colorado - WOJTEK WOLSKI, LW, Brampton

seems cool. I wonder who we will trade him for?
:)

After he gets out of jail? :)

[Cards4ever]

Chucko goes to Calgary!

I love all of these future Gophers going high in the draft!

[Maple Leafs]

I would guess Gord Kluzak.Incorrect.

[Draft Dodger]

Dola



After he gets out of jail? :)

he's in jail?

[bbor]

Wendell Clark:)

[bbor]

he's in jail?

Not yet but he was charged with assult days before the draft....beat up some kid at a party.

[Maple Leafs]

Wendell Clark:)Bingo. Clark was primarily a defenceman in his junior days.

(P.S. "Wendell"? What kind of Leaf fan can't spell his freaking name?)

[sachmo71]

Scouting Report: Is considered one of the best defensive defensemen available in the 2004 NHL Entry Draft. Led all Giants defensemen with 192 penalty minutes, and is never shy about dropping the gloves in order to protect teammates. Appeared in the 2004 Home Hardware CHL Top Prospects Game in London, Ontario. Has already appeared in 139 regular-season games in the WHL--all with Vancouver--and another 15 in the postseason. Might be one of the most NHL-ready prospects available, among all 2004 draft-eligible players. His offensive upside is extremely limited, but his bread-and-butter asset is the ability to stay at home and intimidate opposing forwards.

Impact: The Stars added Shawn Belle in a trade with St. Louis before the draft, but still lacked defensive depth overall. Enter Fistric, who's a no-nonsense defensive defenseman. Clearly, he's a future stay-at-home rearguard for a team expected to let Richard Matvichuk go via free agency. Since the Stars traded down twice, Fistric was obviously the player they wanted all along.

Bye, bye, Matty. Too bad Fistric won't have his experience. :(

[bbor]

Bingo. Clark was primarily a defenceman in his junior days.

(P.S. "Wendell"? What kind of Leaf fan can't spell his freaking name?)

Well...i usually call him Wendy :D

[bbor]

Sach...If the Stars are thin on D...why let Matvichuk go?

[bbor]

Someone wake up JFJ...i think he fell asleep waiting for the 90th:)

[Draft Dodger]

Not yet but he was charged with assult days before the draft....beat up some kid at a party.

he sounds definitely too tough for the Avs.

[sachmo71]

Sach...If the Stars are thin on D...why let Matvichuk go?
He's had a couple of pretty bad years. I don't think they trust him much anymore, and for his price they don't seem to think he's worth it. If he has a stalwart d-man next to him, he'll be a bargin. In Colorado with Blake, or Detroit with Hatcher, well be wishing her was still here. But, I'm used to it. Can't keep the team together forever.

[bbor]

How much does he want?

[sachmo71]

Don't know yet. Probably not much more than 1.5, but they must think that's too much. Maybe they'll wait and see what sort of nibbles he's getting.

[bbor]

Sounds like he may be a good partner for Ken klee:)

[Maple Leafs]

Darft Dodger, any word on the Adam Foote front? Word is he may be headed to the Leafs.

[Chubby]

Blake Wheeler will probably be playing in the USHL next year and then the U of Minnesota the year after, he has a huge upside, you don't find guys with that size with the skating and stickhandling skills he has. This kid was one of the highest sought after recruits in college hockey. From what Gretzky is doing, looks like he is following the NJ model and taking college players, he has Taffe, Westrum, Ballard and still in school he has Matt Jones from UND.

Chubby, Buffalo's problem is signing the picks they draft, they haven't talked to last years pick Vanek at all and just recently signed there 02 pick or they would have lost him. Stafford is good player, lots of grit and isn't afraid to take punishment to get to the net.

The 1st problem is they suck ass at drafting in general. They need more young defensemen more than yet another winger to go along with the glut of forwards in the minors.

They haven't signed Vanek because he wanted to stay at Minnesota last year and why sign him yet with the CBA clusterfuck going on? He's better off spending his junior year at Minnesota than in the AHL with a lockout going on IMO.

[Draft Dodger]

He's had a couple of pretty bad years. I don't think they trust him much anymore, and for his price they don't seem to think he's worth it. If he has a stalwart d-man next to him, he'll be a bargin. In Colorado with Blake, or Detroit with Hatcher, well be wishing her was still here. But, I'm used to it. Can't keep the team together forever.

I don't really see him going to Colorado. They've got several guys similar to him in style (Foote, Skraskins, Vannanen) - defensive guys without a lot of offensive punch. If the Avs need anything on the blueline, it's more scoring punch...like, oh, I don't know, a Derek Morris type. :rolleyes: Blake and Liles are both capable, but neither one could hit the net in the playoffs (granted, Blake was hurt in the 2nd half, derailing his Norris bid, but it was still a pretty dramatic dropoff).

the Avs need forwards. Selanne, Kariya & Nikolishin are all gone, and Forsberg of course is possibly gone too. Not a ton of talent on the horizon either...

[Draft Dodger]

Darft Dodger, any word on the Adam Foote front? Word is he may be headed to the Leafs.

no, but being about 2,000 miles away from Denver, I don't hear a lot of those rumors. Wouldn't surprise me though (see above post).
:D

[Draft Dodger]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1829596
looks like the proposed rule changes (some of them quite quirky) are going on the shelf.

[Maple Leafs]

4. Who is the first American-born player selected (2 points) I'll go out on a limb and say not too many people got this one right.

[Draft Dodger]

Bonk traded to the Canadiens

[Karim]

Chucko goes to Calgary!

I love all of these future Gophers going high in the draft!
You'll have to give me updates once he starts playing in Minnesota.

[Karim]

Sounds like he may be a good partner for Ken klee:)
No doubt. A bargain at $2.5 million. ;)

[Karim]

Three way trade that brings Bonk to Montreal. I'm surprised as I didn't think Bonk was a Gainey type of player.

As per usual, some Flames fans are pissed that the Flames haven't gone for "obvious skill" with their first pick. Sutter obviously has a plan and since Button became head scout we've done fairly well so I'm not about to question players I've never seen play.

The real surprise is Oilers taking Dubnyk over Schwartz. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.

[Karim]

Franchise values dropping...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040625.wwald26/BNStory/Sports/

Just say no... to a luxury tax...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040625.wlabo25/BNStory/Sports/

[Karim]

Wow. Five posts in a row... ;) Quintuple dola?

[Cards4ever]

The 1st problem is they suck ass at drafting in general. They need more young defensemen more than yet another winger to go along with the glut of forwards in the minors.

They haven't signed Vanek because he wanted to stay at Minnesota last year and why sign him yet with the CBA clusterfuck going on? He's better off spending his junior year at Minnesota than in the AHL with a lockout going on IMO.

Sorry Chub, that is not the story, Vanek would have left if the $ were right, Buffalo has a history of doing that(ie, they are cheap).

The reason for signing him? Would you rather have him in the AHL ready to go if and when there is a settlement, or playing in Minnesota?

Another year in College was a good decision, he defensively lacked the skills to play in the pros, and this gave him another year to also grow and mature. Offensively this kid makes all the moves, he's electric, excellent move to the net, exceptional passing skills, skates great and has size.

[Chubby]

Sorry Chub, that is not the story, Vanek would have left if the $ were right, Buffalo has a history of doing that(ie, they are cheap).

The reason for signing him? Would you rather have him in the AHL ready to go if and when there is a settlement, or playing in Minnesota?

Another year in College was a good decision, he defensively lacked the skills to play in the pros, and this gave him another year to also grow and mature. Offensively this kid makes all the moves, he's electric, excellent move to the net, exceptional passing skills, skates great and has size.

If you've bothered to read any articles on ESPN.com or The Buffalo News you'd know they haven't even offered A contract. The last articles I saw were talking about how they were "talking" but Vanek was quoted as not being offered a contract.

I think they would rather have him in Minnesota much like they had Miller stay at Michigan St.

He also plays against college kids, remember that. I'm not saying he won't be a stud, I hope he is.

[Cards4ever]

If you've bothered to read any articles on ESPN.com or The Buffalo News you'd know they haven't even offered A contract. The last articles I saw were talking about how they were "talking" but Vanek was quoted as not being offered a contract.

I think they would rather have him in Minnesota much like they had Miller stay at Michigan St.

He also plays against college kids, remember that. I'm not saying he won't be a stud, I hope he is.


Yes, that's right, they haven't even tried to sign him, yet if you had read it a few weeks ago, the GM made it sound like they were going to. They are CHEAP! You are getting the Sabre spin through these articles, from what I've heard, Vanek wants to go, but he isn't not going to sign for less then what Parise got.

I know he is playing against college kids, but it's a man among boys kind of deal offensively, he's ready to take the next step, but, we will gladly keep him for another year.

[Karim]

Just a rumour that's floating around here, but apparently Conroy has rejected a $6.75 million/3 year deal. Sutter's track record so far indicates he doesn't negotiate with UFAs. He offers them a deal, it's on the table and after a while it will be off. RFAs are more crucial to this team and that's where Sutter will spend the time negotiating.

[Tekneek]

If Conroy rejected that, he is a fool. I will be absolutely amazed if he gets more than that from anyone.

[Chubby]

Yes, that's right, they haven't even tried to sign him, yet if you had read it a few weeks ago, the GM made it sound like they were going to. They are CHEAP! You are getting the Sabre spin through these articles, from what I've heard, Vanek wants to go, but he isn't not going to sign for less then what Parise got.

I know he is playing against college kids, but it's a man among boys kind of deal offensively, he's ready to take the next step, but, we will gladly keep him for another year.

I'm sure you being from Minnesota has no bearing on your mistaken opinion now does it? ;)

How can you try to sign someone without offering a contract? It has nothing to do with being cheap. I wouldn't say ESPN.com puts a Sabre spin on anything. Jim Kelley certainly doesn't suck up to them either.

Who? You mean Paille? I don't blame Vanek for wanting as much as Paille, he deserves it. You're certainly not going to hear me bash Vanek. Are the Sabres free spending? Nope. Are they cheap? I don't consider them cheap under Golisano. They are still fighting that stigma that they rightfully earned under the idiot Rigas'.

[Cards4ever]

Vanek likely to turn pro
BY BRUCE BROTHERS
Pioneer Press

Gophers hockey star Thomas Vanek is as good as gone.

Vanek, a two-year scoring phenom at the University of Minnesota who was a first-round draft pick of the Buffalo Sabres last June, reportedly has begun negotiations and is expected to sign a pro contract with the Sabres in the near future.

The 6-foot-2, 207-pound left wing from Austria led the Gophers in scoring as a freshman and a sophomore and was selected the most outstanding player of the Frozen Four when he led Minnesota to its second consecutive NCAA championship in 2003.

Sabres general manager Darcy Regier told the Associated Press he has had preliminary talks with Vanek's advisers, and said he believes Vanek, 20, is up to the challenge of pro hockey.

"I think you can always accomplish more no matter where you are. But I think there's another question and that's, 'Is there another step he's ready to make?' " Regier said. "And certainly I think he's ready to play at the American Hockey League level, and maybe even at the National Hockey League level."

The AHL affiliate of Buffalo, which drafted Vanek fifth overall last June, is the Rochester Americans.

Gophers coach Don Lucia, although he's not a believer of anyone leaving college to play minor league hockey, has always encouraged his players to take the big money if it's offered.

"I think it all boils down to is if Buffalo wants to sign him," Lucia told the AP. "And if they do in fact want to sign him, what kind of contract are they willing to give him to have him leave school?"

Vanek led all freshmen in scoring with 62 points in his first season and has 57 goals and 56 assists for 113 points in 83 games for the Gophers.

[Cards4ever]

That article is from early June Chubby and being from Minnesota, I'm biased to a certain point, like I said, I'd love for him to play another season for the Gophers.

I'm also talking about Parise, NJ signed him right after the college season for the max possible, that is what Vanek is going to want.

[Chubby]

"Sabres general manager Darcy Regier told the Associated Press he has had preliminary talks with Vanek's advisers, and said he believes Vanek, 20, is up to the challenge of pro hockey. "

Pre-lim talks, exactly like I said. They haven't offered a contract. "Likely" is the key word, the fact that you are Gopher supporter obviously clouds your judgement. If Vanek was so can't-miss he wouldn't have dropped off in production his sophomore year now would he? ;)

Nothing in that article shows Buffalo as cheap. There's been no contract offered. For all we know Vanek could be asking for some insane salary and bonuses, who knows. The Sabres are very tightlipped in regards to contracts anyways.

The fact that there are some talks going on seems to have given all the Gopher fans reason to think that he'll be gone the next day. Sabres don't work that way, nothing to do with being cheap.

[Chubby]

That article is from early June Chubby and being from Minnesota, I'm biased to a certain point, like I said, I'd love for him to play another season for the Gophers.

I'm also talking about Parise, NJ signed him right after the college season for the max possible, that is what Vanek is going to want.

Ahh ok, I heard about him. Thought you were talking about Paille who the Sabres just signed otherwise they would have lost his rights.

Comparing the Sabres to the Devils financially is foolish. I'm not saying Vanek doesn't deserve that kind of money but people need to realize that the Sabres don't have the $ that the Devils and some others do. You can't compare how much Colorado offers a guy to how much Edmonton offers someone. They aren't playing under the same rules.

That being said, Vanek will be signed. At this point it doesn't matter if they take their time or not. There's not going to be any NHL games for him to play in for a while. Personally, I'd rather see him in Minnesota another season if the NHL labor thing drags out.

[Cards4ever]

"Sabres general manager Darcy Regier told the Associated Press he has had preliminary talks with Vanek's advisers, and said he believes Vanek, 20, is up to the challenge of pro hockey. "

Pre-lim talks, exactly like I said. They haven't offered a contract. "Likely" is the key word, the fact that you are Gopher supporter obviously clouds your judgement. If Vanek was so can't-miss he wouldn't have dropped off in production his sophomore year now would he? ;)

Nothing in that article shows Buffalo as cheap. There's been no contract offered. For all we know Vanek could be asking for some insane salary and bonuses, who knows. The Sabres are very tightlipped in regards to contracts anyways.

The fact that there are some talks going on seems to have given all the Gopher fans reason to think that he'll be gone the next day. Sabres don't work that way, nothing to do with being cheap.

So, because you're a Sabre supporter doesn't cloud your thinking?

Tell me, how many games have you seen Vanek play? I'm not some guy that tunes in a few games Chubby, I watch alot of hockey and go to alot of games, when someone is that good, even I can usually tell.

We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess about Sabre management, I think history is on my side, but YMMV.

You would rather see him play another season in the NCAA then playing in the AHL when/if the lockout is ended? If it was my favorite NHL team, I'd have to disagree with that thinking, again YMMV.

[Chubby]

We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess about Sabre management, I think history is on my side, but YMMV.

I said earlier you have history on your side. I also said I don't think Golisano is the same way as Rigas was.

You would rather see him play another season in the NCAA then playing in the AHL when/if the lockout is ended? If it was my favorite NHL team, I'd have to disagree with that thinking, again YMMV.

I would. Even if it means I wouldn't get the chance to watch him 40+ times a year (he'd play here in Rochester). I'll use Miller as an example. He played 3 seasons at Michigan St then came here to Rochester and tore it up. Where'd that get him? A quick call-up to Buffalo where he's been hit or miss.

Vanek will not want to play more than a year in Rochester (AHL) and the Sabres won't want him to either if they are shelling out big $ to him. So yes, I'd much rather him develop more in college THEN play a season in the AHL before he goes to Buffalo instead of him playing this year in the AHL (where he won't get as much time as a normal season because of the lockout) then going to Buffalo next season. Another year of development is good for any prospect IMO.

The knock on Vanek is that he takes plays off, correct? It's been a while since I really looked into him so I'm not quite sure if I remember correctly. His numbers dropped last year at Minnesota. Now this may have been because his supporting cast wasn't as good, I don't know, you'd know better than I. But if he has the potential everyone says he does, I want him to be consistent NOT another Miro.

[Draft Dodger]

wow - Lalime to the Blues for a 4th round pick.

personally, I really like Lalime. Honestly, I'd much rather have him be the goalie for my team than Hasek. He needed a change of scenery though, and the Blues really make out because of this.

[Karim]

The Blues have secured the present, near present and future in goal. I think it was a good draft for St. Louis.

[Draft Dodger]

dola...

Hasek and Lalime have identical .930 save percentages in the playoffs...and Lalime has a better GAA.

[Karim]

Have any of you read the book "Net Worth" by Cruise and Griffiths circa 1992?

I remember it being all the rage back then and I always meant to pick up a copy. I finally purchused a used one off of Amazon because it is out of print.

It's quite shocking. The NHL has been easily the most backward and corrupt sports league in North America. For the better part of a century the league was a monopoly ran by the Norris and Smythe families and their minions such as Jack Adams and Clarence Campbell. The players were treated basically no better than cattle. And attempts to improve their situation, such as not wanting to play on Christmas was met with personal humiliation and possible retaliatory action such as permanent demotion. The owners and general managers were all in collusion to ensure player advances didn't occur. Meanwhile, they cooked the books to make it appear that player salaries were making hockey an unprofitable venture. It is little wonder players do not trust the owners.

I was also shocked to hear about the amount of interest in the US. Places like Louisiana and Florida were interested in hockey. In 1957, CBS had just offered the AFL a $26 million TV contract and was looking to offer the NHL a similar type deal. The owners were stuck in the 1930s and refused arguing about the difficulty in creating schedules, travel and dilution of talent. Among the minimal TV the NHL had, camera crues were bribed to take the night off instead of having to pay for a full broadcast. When TV networks asked to remove seats for better sight lines, the owners refused. Meanwhile, the other three sports were doing everything to accomodate television.

A fascinating read if you manage to get a copy.

[Tekneek]

The NHL has created all of the problems that are coming home to roost now. The current regime may not have done it, but it demonstrates how bad decisions over time have unintended consequences.

[Cards4ever]

I said earlier you have history on your side. I also said I don't think Golisano is the same way as Rigas was.



I would. Even if it means I wouldn't get the chance to watch him 40+ times a year (he'd play here in Rochester). I'll use Miller as an example. He played 3 seasons at Michigan St then came here to Rochester and tore it up. Where'd that get him? A quick call-up to Buffalo where he's been hit or miss.

Vanek will not want to play more than a year in Rochester (AHL) and the Sabres won't want him to either if they are shelling out big $ to him. So yes, I'd much rather him develop more in college THEN play a season in the AHL before he goes to Buffalo instead of him playing this year in the AHL (where he won't get as much time as a normal season because of the lockout) then going to Buffalo next season. Another year of development is good for any prospect IMO.

The knock on Vanek is that he takes plays off, correct? It's been a while since I really looked into him so I'm not quite sure if I remember correctly. His numbers dropped last year at Minnesota. Now this may have been because his supporting cast wasn't as good, I don't know, you'd know better than I. But if he has the potential everyone says he does, I want him to be consistent NOT another Miro.

His production went down because of injury, and because he was the most shadowed player on the Minnesota roster and the players he played with were not able to put the puck in the net on his passes. Another factor is, every team that the Gophers played this season were out there to knock off the back to back Champs. Imagine the Yankees having to play Boston every game, that is what it is like for Minnesota hockey, every team in the WCHA wants to knock off Minnesota.

The knock on Vanek is defensive ability, plain and simple. Offensively, he's the only player to be out there as much as he wants, a rarity for a Lucia team.

[Chief Rum]

Well, color me officially concerned about the Ducks now.

I knew management had given orders to drop the payroll from the $54.5 M (8th overall in NHL) last year, but apparently it's a pretty deep cut.

Gerber we all knew was going to go, because it just makes sense with Bryzgalov ready to back up Jiggy. But Havelid was a surprise. I think that's a big time indicator that some changes are going to happen.

Federov and Prospal will be making about $8 M less this year than last year, so the team payroll was down to $46 M before doing anything. But apparently that's not enough.

The team needs to decide on Carney's option this week, and will need to make qualifying offers to Vishnevsky, Salei and Neidermeyer as well to keep them. Right now, I'm not certain they will make any of those offers.

I have been considering the state of the team's defense, and it may not be so bad, as we still have Ozolinsh and Skoula for offensive blueliners, and I don't think we'll let more than one of Salei-Vishnevsky-Carney go (we really don't have any other options there). Plus, we have highly-regarded Popovic ready to play for a role, and we drafted Smid (although he's supposed to be not ready for the NHL in 2005-06).

Still, that lack of depth is scary to me. If we bring back Carney and let's say Vish, we have our front four set, but a bunch of rookies and never-turned-out well prospects to compete for the fifth thru seventh defensemen spots. Are we really going to be depending on Malek (the D-man we got from the Canes for Gerbs), and Foster (this guy who never seemed to turn out with the Thrashers) and Popovic (the rookie) to fill key defensive roles? And that's if we even bring back Carney and one of the other D-man--nothing is set yet on that.

But what really concerns me is on offense. We had troubles there as it was, and now it looks like we're shopping both Prospal and Sykora. :(

What are we going to get in return to make moving them worth it? It's a buyer's market out there, because everyone knows the teams with something to offer are looking to cut costs in case of a lockout. I'm afraid we're going to just throw these guys away to someone (much as we just did Havelid).

And if we move those guys, who do we keep to staff our lines? Federov, Rucchin and Pahlsson are fine vet centers, but we will have real problems on the wings. Ugh, it's not a great time to be a Ducks fan. I hope we can get a CBA that helps address some of the problems that have contributed to this situation.

CR

[MizzouRah]

wow - Lalime to the Blues for a 4th round pick.

personally, I really like Lalime. Honestly, I'd much rather have him be the goalie for my team than Hasek. He needed a change of scenery though, and the Blues really make out because of this.Damn, I just saw this on Sports Sunday. That's what I get for skipping this thread too many times.

What a pickup!!!!

Todd

[sterlingice]

Man, what is it with you guys and goalies who fold faster in the playoffs than cheap lawn furniture. First Turek, then Osgood, now Lalime. I'd say "Who next {insert name here}" but I can't come up with anyone that would sound like hyperbole when put up next to them.

Seriously, tho, that's a nice pickup for you bastards. Unlike the previous two, I think Lalime just had a bad game at a bad time but it's not habitual.

SI

[Chief Rum]

Man, what is it with you guys and goalies who fold faster in the playoffs than cheap lawn furniture. First Turek, then Osgood, now Lalime. I'd say "Who next {insert name here}" but I can't come up with anyone that would sound like hyperbole when put up next to them.

I can. They should go get Cechmanik, especially now that the Kings think they have their goaltender of the future in Garon. :)

CR

[MizzouRah]

Man, what is it with you guys and goalies who fold faster in the playoffs than cheap lawn furniture. First Turek, then Osgood, now Lalime. I'd say "Who next {insert name here}" but I can't come up with anyone that would sound like hyperbole when put up next to them.

Seriously, tho, that's a nice pickup for you bastards. Unlike the previous two, I think Lalime just had a bad game at a bad time but it's not habitual.

SI
Yeah, tell me about it... although I really like Lalime. Now we need to sign Brett Hull and Brendan Shanahan. :)


Todd

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yeah, tell me about it... although I really like Lalime. Now we need to sign Brett Hull and Brendan Shanahan. :)


Todd

That'd give you what, a $80 million pay roll and you'd still get knocked out in the first round! ;)

It will be interesting to see if Lalime will be the answer to the Blues prayers. He backstopped some very solid Ottawa teams and wasn't able to take them anywhere...

Hull is a goner. There is still some talk of Shanahan sticking with the Wings. The Wings declined to exercise his $6.5 million option, but are trying to bring Shanny back at a lower salary level. Shanahan wants to stay in Detroit. He's been here for 8 years now. That said, I reckon he may try to test the free agent waters to see what there is to see. The Wings are close to bringing back Draper. Schneider as well. Datsyuk is an unrestricted free agent and apparently he and the Wings are "far apart" at the moment.

The Wings didn't have a draft pick until the 3rd round. I don't really have much to chime in on their picks. Maybe in a few more years. Apparently the Wings have all their picks for next year though!