So - why TCY2?

[QuikSand]

I've seen yet another thread where multiple people call for the next Solecismic release to be a refreshed version of The College Years. I though this follow-up thread might prove interesting both to those people, and perhaps to people like me who would probably rather see something else.


Some time ago, at the old board, there was a similar discusssion - what will be the next game? Several people lobbied for TCY2.

At that point, I asked a pretty genuine question. In my mind, the original (fully patched) TCY game seemed to cover the college game pretty thoroughly. I openly asked something like "what else is there to do with TCY?" I don't recall specifics, but I do recall being fairly impressed with the litany of ideas for improvement or expansion that people came up with.

Since I can't resurrect that old thread... I'll just re-ask the same question.

What things would you like to see in a new version of FOF:TCY that might make it a deeper, better, or more absorbing game?

[cthomer5000]

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=10764

[sovereignstar]

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=10764 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=10764)
You fucking elitist. Couldn't you have at least said hello? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[cthomer5000]

You fucking elitist. Couldn't you have at least said hello? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
LOL. I didn't mean to demean the existence of this thread, but merely to provide a link to the (3 pages) of suggestions/discussion on this topic from about a year ago.

[cthomer5000]

I would also like to see a few things come from TCY to FOF. Having to select a primary base offense being chief among them.

edit: I'm getting a bit off topic here, but I came across one of my own posts in that other thread
I think just like the base offense in TCY that you should have to choose a base defense. At the very least he should bring in the "level of familiarity" concept from FOF2001. I don't think I should be able to move from a 46 to a 3-4 to a 4-3 in 3 straight weeks without consequence.
Again, why did this go away? I loved that "familiarity" rating for formations/base defense in FOF2001.

[sovereignstar]

LOL. I didn't mean to demean the existence of this thread, but merely to provide a link to the (3 pages) of suggestions/discussion on this topic from about a year ago.
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Bad-example]

Instead of releasing a new college game, I would much prefer Jim combine FOF and TCY into a single game. I have little interest in college sports or games that simulate them, but making TCY an intergral part of FOF is bound to increase the immersion level, at least for me.

[cthomer5000]

Instead of releasing a new college game, I would much prefer Jim combine FOF and TCY into a single game. I have little interest in college sports or games that simulate them, but making TCY an intergral part of FOF is bound to increase the immersion level, at least for me.
And it would take away a product for him. I think it would be unwieldly, and a poor business move. No way I ever see it happening.

[Bad-example]

Gee, I figured that Jim had more ideas for future products than time to create them. By making TCY and FOF into one game, he might finally get around to trying a new sport.

[Noop]

1. Scouting reports - I'd like to know everything about the player I'm trying to sign. Example: Joe Blow runs a 4.4 according to his highschool coach we clocked at times of 4.38, 4.43, 4.44 . Coach Noop I believe Joe can be a very good player on the defensive side of the ball. But I feel he a player who needs the ball in his hands in order to make things happen. Also he made sure to tell me he's a huge Florida State fan.

2. Impact players the as incoming freshman they are ready to set the world on fire.

3. I want to vote in coaching polls.

4. If I dont make to a BCS I want to either accept or decline a bowl invation. Example: I've been to the gator bowl 4 years running I want to be able to accept another bowl bid.

5. Not every highschool football player has a 3.5 1300+ grades in school so make it a lil bit more real.

6. The addition of the once in a while two way player who is actually good at both postions.

7. Spring Practice

8. Preseason preview of the conference of your choice(including your own.)

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

noop
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Havok]

I've seen yet another thread where multiple people call for the next Solecismic release to be a refreshed version of The College Years. I though this follow-up thread might prove interesting both to those people, and perhaps to people like me who would probably rather see something else.


Some time ago, at the old board, there was a similar discusssion - what will be the next game? Several people lobbied for TCY2.

At that point, I asked a pretty genuine question. In my mind, the original (fully patched) TCY game seemed to cover the college game pretty thoroughly. I openly asked something like "what else is there to do with TCY?" I don't recall specifics, but I do recall being fairly impressed with the litany of ideas for improvement or expansion that people came up with.

Since I can't resurrect that old thread... I'll just re-ask the same question.

What things would you like to see in a new version of FOF:TCY that might make it a deeper, better, or more absorbing game?



I liked TCY..... but there definitly are some things i'd like to see changed. The recruiting was pretty good, but it became SOOOO tedious(sp?) sometimes it felt more like work then fun. Also, the player time management thing was a pain in the ass..... just do away with that completely IMO.

I think something Jim should consider doing is making his games much more MOD friendly. This is a very strong community we have here and i think we could make some greats MOD's for Jim's games. But i know little about MOD'ing so maybe its not possible. Just a thought.....

[Blackadar]

#1 priority for me to purchase it...

The ability to playcall the games. If I take a Solecismic 8 team, I WANT (really really want) to call the plays when I'm playing a Big 8 team. I'm not trying to win - I just want to see if I can keep the score close.

[QuikSand]

I wonder if there are really two wholly different directions to take this game.

Many of the suggestions from the "true believer" college football junkies have practically no appeal to me at all. I don't want more tedium, more steps to sift through between making decisions, more stuff to deal with in recruiting... those are essentially the things that turned me off to the game to begin with. And I'm not sure if Jim gets more customers by adding even more detail that benefits the "hardcore" users of exactly this kind of game.

Is there a different direction to take? Something that might give the game a broader appeal, rather than just a more intense appeal to the same people who would already buy it?

(I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the right thing to do - just curious)

[albionmoonlight]

My least favorite aspect of the game is time managment/player development.

At best, it is a mechanical exercise that I endure getting to what I really want to do--the games. At worst, it takes so long that it turns me off to the game.

However, I also beleive that time management/player development should be an important part of a college sports sim. It may just be a part of TCY that I never like and will just have to live with. If, however, it could be changed in a way that makes it more relevant and less mechanical, I might end up enjoying it.

More generally, I think that I would like TCY better if it focused on the things that make college football different from pro football. Otherwise, it just occurs to me to go back to FOF when TCY gets too detailed. Focusing on that framework, I can think of two areas in which TCY could be improved.

The part of the game that I would really like to see improved is play calling. I think that college football really lends itself to lots of fun with imaginative playcalling. Option runs, flexbones, run-n-shoots, etc. give one a lot more with which to work than the pro game. I am not sure in what direction I would develop playcalling, but I think that there is a lot of room to grow even beyond what FOF has done.

Somewhat related to that, I think that the other area in which college football really differs from the NFL is that college football can have real gamebreakers--guys who are just heads and shoulders above everyone else on the field. I am thinking here of guys like Rocket Ismael (sp?), Peter Warrick, or Mike Vick. It would be neat to see guys like that appear every so often and to be able to design your entire offense around them--getting them the ball on sweeps and screens and bombs and kick returns, etc.

My 2c

[Ksyrup]

Maybe it's all of the conspiracy theories in the OJ thread that have me in a particular mindset, but for some reason, knowing that Quiksand has assisted Jim with FOF in the past, there's a part of my brain that won't let go of the idea that this thread is a subtle, indirect attempt to pick our brains about a possible TCY successor for Jim's benefit.

Anyway, on the topic, I found TCY in theory to be a lot of fun, but also found myself invariably delegating almost all of the tasks in the game to the computer, so much so that I ended up basically watching "my" game being played by the computer. I think part of it is the tedium of doing the time management, and eventually the recruiting, which I originally handled 100%. The FOF-type stuff, like setting rosters, hiring coaches, etc., I enjoyed.

However, the other part of my limited enjoyment of the game is the nature of college sports themselves - the fact that I spent so much time recruiting all of these players, only to have to look for replacements as soon as the next year, and seeing guys leave the game entirely in 2-4 years. I'm probably in the minority with that view, but outside of text sims, I think it probably explains why I pay so much more attention to pro sports than college. I certainly follow college sports, but I also have a tendency to lose track of players or not bother to learn who they are, since they only stick around for a couple of years.

[QuikSand]

Maybe it's all of the conspiracy theories in the OJ thread that have me in a particular mindset, but for some reason, knowing that Quiksand has assisted Jim with FOF in the past, there's a part of my brain that won't let go of the idea that this thread is a subtle, indirect attempt to pick our brains about a possible TCY successor for Jim's benefit.

I'd be quick to disabuse you of any such notion.

[gstelmack]

My least favorite aspect of the game is time managment/player development.

At best, it is a mechanical exercise that I endure getting to what I really want to do--the games. At worst, it takes so long that it turns me off to the game.
This the TCY problem to me in a nutshell: the staff is horrible at managing time for players, but it takes me forever to do it manually. The new management screen helps, but its not quite the way I would assign time to kids.

Right now I blast through TCY seasons just to get draft classes for our office FOF league.

[Solecismic]

The question is whether Quik is being manipulated against his will into asking questions that would determine my future direction.

And also, whether Quik's choice of the word "disabuse" is in anyway a subconscious reaction to the current subthread of the Ritalin Boy article discussing corporal punishment in the public schools.

[Poli]

I'd be quick to disabuse you of any such notion.

Darn. My dictionary is at work.

[Honolulu Blue]

What things would you like to see in a new version of FOF:TCY that might make it a deeper, better, or more absorbing game?

I enjoyed TCY for awhile, but three things turned me off from it:

1) The lack of difference in resources between the smallest and largest schools made it too easy, IMO, for the small schools to maintain and/or progress in the rankings.
2) There were too many relatively smart recruits and too many recruits that chose schools for their academic benefits.
3) The concept of time allocation as implemented in the game is, IMO, unrealistic, and the allocation screen is an abomination.

If Jim were to fix those things, I would be first in line to buy TCY2. I'm not holding my breath.

The addition of features from past and current versions of FOF would help others more than me - e.g., playcalling, multiplayer, addtional ratings, more complex game planning.

[Buzzbee]

Darn. My dictionary is at work.

It means to undecieve. To remove any misconceptions. To set things right.

I know. I had to look it up. :confused:

[KWhit]

I'd be quick to disabuse you of any such notion.

The question is whether Quik is being manipulated against his will into asking questions that would determine my future direction.

And also, whether Quik's choice of the word "disabuse" is in anyway a subconscious reaction to the current subthread of the Ritalin Boy article discussing corporal punishment in the public schools.

Anyone notice that they didn't answer the question?

Conspiracy!!

[Buzzbee]

Hmmm.....Multiplayer. Intriguing. Hadn't thought of that for TCY. Initial thought is that it would be incredible to pick your alma mater and guide them through a multiplayer schedule, compete for the top recruits, lure away transfers. The thought has me salivating.

Then reality sets in. How would you set it up? You absolutely positively couldn't allow all 117 or however many D1 schools there are to be involved in one league. Managing 32 in FOF2k4 is headace enough. You would almost have to set it up by conference, with players controlling a particular team in one specific conference. Then would come the question of out of conference games and playing against the AI. Would it be fair to all in the conference? So and so got to play a patsy, but I had to play Michigan. It would also lose some luster since you would only develop conference rivalries. Bowl games would probably end up being humans vs. CPU rather than human vs. human.

Intriguing, but seems like it would be an absolute monster to design and code. Awesome, yes. Likely, no.

[Buzzbee]

I'm guessing that many here haven't played TCY since Jim tweaked the Time Management screen. The ability to set values by position, rather than by each individual player made things tremendously less tedious.

[KWhit]

A couple of things that turned me off of the game were the time management and a couple of strange quirks in recruiting.

One of those quirks (the only one coming to mind right now) was the need to recruit smart players to increase the academic rating of the school to, in turn, get better recruits later on. That didn't seem realistic to me. I understand the concept and how coaches are concerned with academics, but it seemed too "strategy game-ish" to me and not very realistic.

I know I didn't explain that well at all (mainly because I'm forgetting the specifics of how it worked and exactly what bothered me about it).

[IMetTrentGreen]

the thing i hate hte most about tcy/fof is that i dont feel my gameplans mean much. in fbcb the differences are noticeable right away, in tcy, as long as i recruited well it didnt matter what i did, i'd always win and it would always be completely random

[vex]

3) The concept of time allocation as implemented in the game is, IMO, unrealistic, and the allocation screen is an abomination.



So you're going to try and tell me that if you were a head coach, you wouldn't give your 3rd string player extra time off so he could go out with his girlfriend?

[Havok]

So you're going to try and tell me that if you were a head coach, you wouldn't give your 3rd string player extra time off so he could go out with his girlfriend?


hahah :)

[Ksyrup]

Anyone notice that they didn't answer the question?

Conspiracy!!
Ha! Just a joke guys, just a joke...

[KWhit]

Ha! Just a joke guys, just a joke...

;)

[gstelmack]

I'm guessing that many here haven't played TCY since Jim tweaked the Time Management screen. The ability to set values by position, rather than by each individual player made things tremendously less tedious.
I did. My problem is it doesn't go far enough. When I manually set, I actually use a sliding scale where study hall time varies from 20 for really smart kids to 30 for really dumb kids. Then next season I bump it up a point or two if he has academic trouble. I then set relaxation to 20 or 28 depending on whether or not the kid has a girlfriend, and the rest based on position. That seemed to give me the best mix of happy kids with good grades while still maintaining a decent program.

For my quick league, I use the management screen, and 2 or 3 kids per season go on academic probation, and 2 or 3 kids per season get upset because their girlfriend left them. Because it spreads points out, it's hard to set things right where you want them, and 1 point can make all the difference in the world (at 28 relaxation, most girlfriends stick by their man, while at 27 you lose them in droves).

So if I'm really trying to be successful, I still have to set every freshman's data every season and double-check the other kids to see if academics needs a tweak.

[Chubby]

I would certainly buy TCY2 but I think Jim's working on a new sport.

[Dutch]

I think a baseball game is ripe for dominating the current selections with all their deficiencies.

A hockey game will be hard pressed to pass EHM:FE even if we haven't played it yet.

A pro-basketball game is shaky ground to walk on.

A college basketball game could work also, but of course there would be some seasoned competition there.

A continuing effort to refine either TCY or FOF and it's MP is also something that is important to the Solecismic franchise.

All sports are fine, but I think Football is where it's at in the long run with Solecismic.

[dixieflatline]

I doubt that TCY will get another patch except maybe one this summer with the updated conference alignment. That said there are still a couple of things in the engine that could use tweaking.

1. There are way too many 17 yard punts that get returned for 10+ yards. I understand that my 19 year punter is going to shank a couple but those punts shouldn't be getting returned for TD's either.

2. The end of game strategy could still use some work. in my last game of the season last year we were down by 3 with 22 seconds left on the clock. We had burned all our timeouts and had the ball on their 32. Instead of kicking the FG or thowing a pass we ran it up the middle. Clock runs out we lose, but my center got the last key block of his career.

If Jim were to come out with a TCY 2 a couple of things that would be nice to see.

1. Assistant coaches being hired by smaller schools as head coaches or a school promoting from within.

2. Some team chemistry included. It doesn't have to be like the zodiac FOF thing but if my star QB and top WR have been playing together for 3 years I think that should count for something.

3. My stud RB goes for 2200 yards, wins the MVP, and then comes back for his senior season. I know that Jim has had some suspended players go pro early but I'd like to see more early entrants into the draft.

4. Players often change positions from HS to college or even during their careers and I'd like TCY to simulate this a bit better. If nothing else I'd like to recruit players at the "athlete" position and plug them in where needed when they arrive on campus.

Overall though I still get lot's of enjoyment out of TCY and many of my "complaints" are minor and probably could be fixed with a patch instead of a new version.

[dawgfan]

I wonder if there are really two wholly different directions to take this game.

Many of the suggestions from the "true believer" college football junkies have practically no appeal to me at all. I don't want more tedium, more steps to sift through between making decisions, more stuff to deal with in recruiting... those are essentially the things that turned me off to the game to begin with. And I'm not sure if Jim gets more customers by adding even more detail that benefits the "hardcore" users of exactly this kind of game.

Is there a different direction to take? Something that might give the game a broader appeal, rather than just a more intense appeal to the same people who would already buy it?

(I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the right thing to do - just curious)

If you check the suggestions I'd made in the thread cthomer5000 linked, most of them involved either fixes to the basic game engine (i.e. 4th and long and deciding whether to kick the field goal, punt or go for it) or ways of streamlining the more tedious tasks (time management, recruiting, saving gameplans/depth charts). As a college football junkie there are additional things that could be added, but I think most of what I'd listed goes towards making TCY a more enjoyable experience by reducing the tedious aspects and a few other factors that I think would improve the immersion factor (aging/retiring coaches, more feedback on your own performance as coach and how happy/unhappy the school is with you).

Given the advances Jim has made in the FOF line, it would seem logical for him to roll the applicable parts into a TCY2 plus some of the suggestions listed here - he would reaffirm his status as the king of football text sims and own the college football section of the market by default.

Of course, some of the things involved in TCY and some of the advances made in FOF would dovetail nicely into a professional baseball sim... :)

I'd be happy with either TCY2 or a baseball game as the next Solecismic release.

[albionmoonlight]

Whatever the next release is, I hope that he posts it here first in the form of a very difficult puzzle. After we figure it out, he can then make the announcement on solecismic.com.

How cool would it be to be groupthinking a cypher, knowing that the answer had independent value to you above and beyond simply being the answer?

Very cool.

[larrymcg421]

If Jim multiplayer and didn't change anything else, I'd buy a whole new edition of TCY and I wouldn't be mad about it. I would like playcalling but it's not a priority for me.

Other changes:

Take financing out of the coach of the year ratings. It should solely be based on on field performance. Also significant bonus pts for a coach that dramatically improves his team's record.

The new time management screen

[33sherman]

I would buy TCY2 in a second, and I'm not too picky--playcalling, ability to edit bowl matchups, and the elimination of the permanent non-conference opponent would be plenty improvement for me.

[Leonidas]

- Allow us to call our own plays and substitute during gameplay
- Allow us to chose which players suit up (I am sick and tired of my doubtful guys I want to hold out off the depth chart still get in the game and get hurt even worse)
- Change time management to be more like training camp is done in FOF
- Make recruiting optional, I like it, but understand why others don't
- Make more job openings for successful coaches, seems like you have to be a mediocre coach to be offered a job
- Improve punting, I am sick of seeing a guy with 37.6 ave being all conference, sick of 12 yard punts from 90 rated punters
- Make it so option QBs can really lead their team in rushing, revamp option QBs totally, they really don't even exist as such in the game

But I really do love the game. I have gone back to playing it right now.

[kingnebwsu]

TCY 2 is on my "guaranteed list of games to buy." The only other game on that list right now is Halo 2.

[Darkiller]

Although I'm a much bigger fan of FOF than TCY, I have had some very good times playing this game as well and I think it is now close to being a complete product (thanks to the various patches that Jim has released).

The things that I could see for "improving" TCY for an hypothetical TCY2 would be :

- Play Calling (I really missed that because when the game's on the line, I like to take control of the playcalling myself to make sure the AI will not run on 3rd & 8 from the 50 yard line with 34 seconds to play as it happens sometimes...)

- A better interaction between TCY exports and FOF Imports: I believe that would need a complete restructuring of the TCY player's code (? just a guess...)

- The ability to avoid having to go through all the micro-management stages (time allocation is really something that bores me), perhaps an option on the early screens giving you the choice to activate it or not.

I don't see much more things to say right now, I'm not sure multiplayer in a College Football sim would work (can any human commisionner -even as great a VPI- or any game engine support everything that goes with handling 125 human-controled teams ?! I'm not sure an online league could function with 125 teams...)

[GrantDawg]

A couple of things that turned me off of the game were the time management and a couple of strange quirks in recruiting.

One of those quirks (the only one coming to mind right now) was the need to recruit smart players to increase the academic rating of the school to, in turn, get better recruits later on. That didn't seem realistic to me. I understand the concept and how coaches are concerned with academics, but it seemed too "strategy game-ish" to me and not very realistic.

I know I didn't explain that well at all (mainly because I'm forgetting the specifics of how it worked and exactly what bothered me about it).
I hope you explained them well because these are my problems with the game. I can't understand why you have playcalling in a Pro GM game when GM's don't call plays, and not in a college coaching game where the coaches do. The academic rating thing, lack of play calling, tedious time managment and the way recruiting was set up (having it each week inbetween games sucked) turned me off couple of weeks after I bought the game, and never played it again. I tried to pick it up several times afterward out of love for college football, but I never had fun playing it.

[QuikSand]

To me, as a fan of the Solecismic series, there are two questions here, in a way.

The first question is "if TCY 2 were to come out, what would you want to see in it?" The thoughts here, and in the linked threads, seem to do a pretty good job with that.

The secod question is "what does TCY need to have improved that makes it important for that to be the next Solecismic product?" In large part, I think it's because the college game doesn't intrigue me as puch as the pro game -- but I personally remain unsold on that point. You could add all these improvements in a TCY 2 and I would certanly buy it and play it... but I'd probably still regret that the time wasn't spent on either a new sport or something else that I might like better.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Along with some of the suggestions listed here, one thing I would like to see is general athletes introduced. A great percentage of kids play a different position than where he is projected and not just in the same subset. For instance, I myself was recruited as a fullback, moved to tight end and eventually ended up at defensive tackle. If I was to do that with a TCY player, he would most likely suck.

I would also like a modification of the "solecismic 8" to be able to spread out the schools to different states and not all congested in one.

[wbatl1]

There need to be much bigger resource differences between the big confrences and the small ones. Cut down on visit money even more, take away some visits, and maybe place a range on phone calls(like you cant call more that 500 miles away if your a small school).

Also, I never really figured out the coloring of recruits, because it seemed like I recruited just as many recruits colored black as I did green, and green was supposed to be almost always come to my school.

[33sherman]

I would also like a modification of the "solecismic 8" to be able to spread out the schools to different states and not all congested in one.

That's a great idea. It's always bothered me how all the schools clustered in one state changed a particular career. One region maybe, but not one state.

[Buzzbee]

Along with some of the suggestions listed here, one thing I would like to see is general athletes introduced. A great percentage of kids play a different position than where he is projected and not just in the same subset. For instance, I myself was recruited as a fullback, moved to tight end and eventually ended up at defensive tackle. If I was to do that with a TCY player, he would most likely suck.


So, what your saying is that you are a real life example of how TCY is pretty realistic, right? :p

[Bee]

I'd like to see Jim go in a different direction and not do TCY 2. A political sim could be interesting or something in a sport other than the big 4 (football, basketball, baseball and hockey). In any case I've been very happy with the latest edition of FOF and am eager to try the next release whatever it may be.

[dawgfan]

The secod question is "what does TCY need to have improved that makes it important for that to be the next Solecismic product?" In large part, I think it's because the college game doesn't intrigue me as puch as the pro game -- but I personally remain unsold on that point. You could add all these improvements in a TCY 2 and I would certanly buy it and play it... but I'd probably still regret that the time wasn't spent on either a new sport or something else that I might like better.

I guess I see TCY2 as a logical extension of the FOF revisions already undertaken in FOF4 and FOF2004 - there's some interesting stuff that could easily be wrapped back into TCY2 in addition to the aforementioned TCY-specific fixes.

I'd love to see Jim's take on baseball, but I could easily understand if he wanted to ride the momentum of the FOF4 and FOF2004 advances into TCY2 first.

[Buzzbee]

I wondering if the success of FOF2k4 and Jim's participation in a multiplayer league has him leaning toward TCY2.

As I see it there are three options, two of which make the most sense.

1) TCY2 - Jim has said that TCY saved his company. I would imagine that as a result he's got a soft spot for it. Also, the conference re-alignments and feedback from gamers wanting a streamlined time management and also recruiting process as well as game tweaks means there is room to improve. Also, he might be able to incorporate some of the improvements from FOF4 and FOF2k4.

2) - Jim continues the work he began at the beginning of last year. Based on his comments, he had made a good bit of progress, but his window of opportunity with a publisher closed before he could take advantage. Perhaps he has been able to secure a more solid relationship or find another opportunity now that some time has passed.

3) - Jim creates the game he has been longing to work on for the past year or two. This assumes that option 2 above included a game that was publisher/market driven and not driven by what Jim wants to program.


As far as Quik's question, I would like to see less emphasis on academics and more focus on performance and prestige when recruits are making decisions. Very few recruits these days go PRIMARILY for the academic side. It is more of a deciding factor rather than a sole reason. Given a choice of Princeton or Florida State, most kids would choose to play football at Florida State. TCY became to easy because all you had to do was focus on academics and before long you could attract top recruits. Jim made some changes to lessen this effect (academic rating was based more on recent years than total years), but it didn't quite go far enough in my opinion.

[Godzilla Blitz]

First, let me preface this. If you only read the following from me about TCY, you might think I hate the game, but that’s not true. I really enjoyed TCY. I think it is a solid game, and it gave me dozens of hours of fun. However, most first generation games have many things that can be improved, and TCY is no exception.

Some of these have been mentioned above and some of these I’ve posted in other threads, but for what it’s worth, here’s my thoughts on how to improve TCY (in order of priority):

Fix the Fundamental Flaw
TCY is fundamentally flawed because the route to success is automatic. Basically, to succeed at TCY you recruit smart athletes to build prestige which in turn allows you to recruit good athletes, which in turn allow you to win games. Making this strategy even more powerful is the fact that the AI ignores it. By following this strategy, you can take any program and build it into an elite program in ten to fifteen years. It takes a long time, yes, but the challenge when playing TCY is not “Can I do it?” but “How long will it take?”

Thoughts:
First, if you keep the same system in TCY, at least get the AI to have the weaker college programs try to follow it as well. This would greatly improve the challenge for the human player. Second, reduce the overall intelligence of the recruiting pool and further reduce the number of students that highly value academics. There are simply too many smart athletes in TCY. Third, create sliders that allow the human player to customize the algorithms used to generate the recruiting pool.

An alternative would be to scrap the system altogether: greatly reduce or eliminate the influence of academics in the game. This would probably mean overhauling the recruiting system.

Simplify Time Management
Sure, some people like it. Some people collect insects, too. But the majority of gamers find it tedious, cumbersome, and boring. Each preseason, you’ve got to deal with: more than 60 players, 5 variables, each player on a different screen, adjustments on a scale of 1-100. Eek. Also, the allure to this part of the game for those that like it is more along the lines of puzzle solving; when setting time management numbers, most of the issue is not the gamer trying to develop players to fit a certain style of play, but more the gamer trying to crack a complex code in order to maximize development. This type of “puzzling” simply should not be part of a football sim. It’s a different type of game altogether.

Thoughts:
First, create a simplified system of time management by doing the following. Reduce the number of variables to three: Academic, Football, Free. Second, reduce the number scale to 1-10. Three, simplify the interface used to adjust the variables. I’m thinking something along the lines of FBCB’s system, where all players’ training times are on one screen and there are drop down menus to select training time. The goal is to be able to do everything with time management from one screen. Lastly, for those that enjoy the puzzle-solving nature of the current system, let the gamer choose from “Simplified Development” or “Complex Development” at the beginning of a career.

Create a Search Function for Recruits
Recruiting takes two to three times as long as it should because of the lack of a search function that would allow you to pinpoint recruits along a number of variables.

Thoughts:
Create a search function much like Championship Manager. You should be able to set all the variables (positions, distance, test scores, interest, ability, major, state, etc.), on one screen, push a “find” button, and see all of the players that match those criteria come up on one screen, and then be able to save that search results screen. Also, allow the gamer to sort the results by clicking on the variables at the top. Want to see all the interested offensive tackles, rated 60 or better, within 500 miles of your school that want to stay close to home, and have a test score of 1000 or better? Just punch in the variables and viola, you’ve got them all in front of you in less than 10 seconds. Right now, answering that question would take five minutes or more. Given the number of questions that you entertain while recruiting, the entire recruiting process could be greatly streamlined. More importantly, you’ve eliminated the tedium of the process (screen-hopping) and kept the fun (decision-making).

Allow the Option to Move Recruiting to the Post-Season
This is clearly a matter of preference. For every gamer that wants recruiting done after the season, there is another that likes the current system. Personally, I like some aspects of in-season recruiting (game outcome influencing visiting recruits; adjusting recruiting due to injuries and poor performance), but the biggest drawback for me is that I have a hard time getting locked into the game. When I’m recruiting, I want to see how things are progressing immediately, and I feel like the games are an annoyance. Once the game’s over, I want to play the next game, and recruiting feels like an annoyance. I can’t get into a rhythm.

Thoughts:
If at all possible, create an option that allows the gamer, at the beginning of a career, to decide which system they would prefer.

Simplify Scouts
Again, this is too complex. Too much information scattered over too many screens.

Thoughts:
First, reduce it to one scout. Second, as with time management, make it so you can see the ratings of all the available scouts on one screen rather than having to scroll through them, one by one. Third, change the variables to numbers. Numbers are easy on the brain. Fourth, on the screen with all the scouts visible, have one column that shows the “total” numerical value of the scout, which is a sum of all the individual variables. Fifth, allow the gamer to sort this screen by clicking on the variables at the top.

Modify the Record Tabulating (For Tournament Style Playoff Careers)
Right now in TCY, all playoff games are included in career and season record totals. For elite teams that make it deep into the tournament, players will get an extra four or five games a season, making the season-records and career-record screens mostly meaningless, especially for the teams that don’t make the playoffs.

Thoughts:
For tournament-style playoff careers, create the option of not including playoff games in record totals.

Tweak Recruiting Finances
Right now, there’s too much money for small schools to recruit all over the country. Even with the smaller schools, I rarely feel financially constrained in my recruiting decisions.

Thoughts:
Reduce the money available for small schools, or increase the cost of travel. Nationwide recruiting should be extremely difficult for small schools. Perhaps this could be coupled with an unlocking of recruiting regions as a team progresses in prestige.

(Whoops. Accidentally deleted this entire post earlier. This is a repost.)

[Franklinnoble]

First, let me preface this. If you only read the following from me about TCY, you might think I hate the game, but that’s not true. I really enjoyed TCY. I think it is a solid game, and it gave me dozens of hours of fun. However, most first generation games have many things that can be improved, and TCY is no exception.

Some of these have been mentioned above and some of these I’ve posted in other threads, but for what it’s worth, here’s my thoughts on how to improve TCY (in order of priority):

Fix the Fundamental Flaw
TCY is fundamentally flawed because the route to success is automatic. Basically, to succeed at TCY you recruit smart athletes to build prestige which in turn allows you to recruit good athletes, which in turn allow you to win games. Making this strategy even more powerful is the fact that the AI ignores it. By following this strategy, you can take any program and build it into an elite program in ten to fifteen years. It takes a long time, yes, but the challenge when playing TCY is not “Can I do it?” but “How long will it take?”

Thoughts:
First, if you keep the same system in TCY, at least get the AI to have the weaker college programs try to follow it as well. This would greatly improve the challenge for the human player. Second, reduce the overall intelligence of the recruiting pool and further reduce the number of students that highly value academics. There are simply too many smart athletes in TCY. Third, create sliders that allow the human player to customize the algorithms used to generate the recruiting pool.

An alternative would be to scrap the system altogether: greatly reduce or eliminate the influence of academics in the game. This would probably mean overhauling the recruiting system.

I disagree. I've been able to build championship programs starting from Sol-8 teams while paying no regard to academics at all. The "exploit" you're talking about is just one way to win at the game - it's no the only way. Should it be adjusted? Probably - but if that's the only way you build winning teams, you're not trying anything else. Ignore the academics when you build your program and see how you do.

Simplify Time Management
Sure, some people like it. Some people collect insects, too. But the majority of gamers find it tedious, cumbersome, and boring. Each preseason, you’ve got to deal with: more than 60 players, 5 variables, each player on a different screen, adjustments on a scale of 1-100. Eek. Also, the allure to this part of the game for those that like it is more along the lines of puzzle solving; when setting time management numbers, most of the issue is not the gamer trying to develop players to fit a certain style of play, but more the gamer trying to crack a complex code in order to maximize development. This type of “puzzling” simply should not be part of a football sim. It’s a different type of game altogether.

Thoughts:
First, create a simplified system of time management by doing the following. Reduce the number of variables to three: Academic, Football, Free. Second, reduce the number scale to 1-10. Three, simplify the interface used to adjust the variables. I’m thinking something along the lines of FBCB’s system, where all players’ training times are on one screen and there are drop down menus to select training time. The goal is to be able to do everything with time management from one screen. Lastly, for those that enjoy the puzzle-solving nature of the current system, let the gamer choose from “Simplified Development” or “Complex Development” at the beginning of a career.

I'm all for simplifying it, but make it optional. Some guys love the minute details... don't deprive others of it, but give us an option to automate it.

Create a Search Function for Recruits
Recruiting takes two to three times as long as it should because of the lack of a search function that would allow you to pinpoint recruits along a number of variables.

Thoughts:
Create a search function much like Championship Manager. You should be able to set all the variables (positions, distance, test scores, interest, ability, major, state, etc.), on one screen, push a “find” button, and see all of the players that match those criteria come up on one screen, and then be able to save that search results screen. Also, allow the gamer to sort the results by clicking on the variables at the top. Want to see all the interested offensive tackles, rated 60 or better, within 500 miles of your school that want to stay close to home, and have a test score of 1000 or better? Just punch in the variables and viola, you’ve got them all in front of you in less than 10 seconds. Right now, answering that question would take five minutes or more. Given the number of questions that you entertain while recruiting, the entire recruiting process could be greatly streamlined. More importantly, you’ve eliminated the tedium of the process (screen-hopping) and kept the fun (decision-making).

Good idea... although I'm generally able to filter for the recruits I want with the tools the game already has.


Allow the Option to Move Recruiting to the Post-Season
This is clearly a matter of preference. For every gamer that wants recruiting done after the season, there is another that likes the current system. Personally, I like some aspects of in-season recruiting (game outcome influencing visiting recruits; adjusting recruiting due to injuries and poor performance), but the biggest drawback for me is that I have a hard time getting locked into the game. When I’m recruiting, I want to see how things are progressing immediately, and I feel like the games are an annoyance. Once the game’s over, I want to play the next game, and recruiting feels like an annoyance. I can’t get into a rhythm.

Thoughts:
If at all possible, create an option that allows the gamer, at the beginning of a career, to decide which system they would prefer.

Another good idea... this would make it more "FOF-like." I'd go for this.



Simplify Scouts
Again, this is too complex. Too much information scattered over too many screens.

Thoughts:
First, reduce it to one scout. Second, as with time management, make it so you can see the ratings of all the available scouts on one screen rather than having to scroll through them, one by one. Third, change the variables to numbers. Numbers are easy on the brain. Fourth, on the screen with all the scouts visible, have one column that shows the “total” numerical value of the scout, which is a sum of all the individual variables. Fifth, allow the gamer to sort this screen by clicking on the variables at the top.

Good suggestions... especially the scouting consolidation option... but I'd like this to be optional, as well, just to leave the added detail for those who want it.

Modify the Record Tabulating (For Tournament Style Playoff Careers)
Right now in TCY, all playoff games are included in career and season record totals. For elite teams that make it deep into the tournament, players will get an extra four or five games a season, making the season-records and career-record screens mostly meaningless, especially for the teams that don’t make the playoffs.

Thoughts:
For tournament-style playoff careers, create the option of not including playoff games in record totals.
I don't pay much attention to this aspect of the game.

Tweak Recruiting Finances
Right now, there’s too much money for small schools to recruit all over the country. Even with the smaller schools, I rarely feel financially constrained in my recruiting decisions.

Thoughts:
Reduce the money available for small schools, or increase the cost of travel.

(Whoops. Accidentally deleted this entire post earlier. This is a repost.)
Hmm... not a bad idea... it would definately make the Sol-8 teams more challenging.

[the_meanstrosity]

I absolutely love to play TCY. Can it be improved? Yes. But for the inaugural version of the game, Jim really out-did himself on it. Plus all of his patches just kept making a strong game even stronger. Kudos to Jim on a great job.

As far as improving time management, there is some room for improvement. I will say that the first season was always the most difficult. You had to evaluate every player and their situation to insure you had the correct tweaks. But after the first season, it became at most a 5 minute process. You can't ask for much more than that. I would like to see a way to type in the numbers though. The sliders were alright, but typing in numbers would have made things easier for me at least.

I'm not a stickler for playcalling so I won't discuss it here. I think we'll see it added to the next version though, but it won't keep me from purchasing the game if it's not.

I'd like to see more media, athletic department, and coach interaction like Championship Manager has. Discussing the job situation, recruiting, contending for the conference or national championship, player reports from coaches, etc.

These are just a couple of things I'd look for in the next version. Either way, Jim will have a tough time improving on the original TCY. It's been a fantastic game.

[GabeRivers]

Excellent post, Godzilla. You've hit on a lot of my own thoughts (and yes, I too like the game).

I have a son who is a college football player and starts in the Big XII (that info kind of dates me), so I tend to view TCY through the eyes of following my son's experiences.

The 'academic' facets of TCY don't seem real to me. As far as recruiting players goes in the real world, I simply don't believe that how a university ranks in a given recruit's chosen field of study is really a factor. Certainly, most major universities are solid in enough areas to fit most any recruit, and besides, most of them don't enter college with a decided major anyway. Perhaps if the recruit had a choice between two otherwise equal universities, he might take this factor into account, but in the real world, I doubt it. It would make more sense to me to greatly increase the importance of prestige, and then to substitute the "bright lights of the city" as a factor in place of academics. The attractiveness of the location of the university is often a factor with recruits in the real world.

Secondly, in the real world, coaches will clamp down on players who struggle academically, forcing them into extra time with tutors and in study hall, but it comes straight out of their 'social' time and never out of their practice or conditioning time.

Finally, if a Sol-8 conference is required in order to effectuate schedules that's fine with me, but I wish the option to create this conference was done on a regional basis as opposed to by state. I can't stand the notion of a full-fledged Rhode Island D-1 conference. :) Seriously, to me it would be more fun to structure the Sol-8 around the regions that are already built into the game for scouting purposes, using either existing schools or fantasy universities, as the player wishes.

I like TCY and will continue to play it from time to time, but I would prefer it to be more geared to real life.

[Godzilla Blitz]

The 'academic' facets of TCY don't seem real to me. As far as recruiting players goes in the real world, I simply don't believe that how a university ranks in a given recruit's chosen field of study is really a factor.

Good points. However, I believe Jim included this element in the game not to mirror reality, but to add an element to the gameplay.

Personally, I don't have a problem with bending reality to make a better game. As a matter of fact I would prefer that designers bend reality to make a game more fun.

To that end, I'm ok with the element of academics influencing prestige and such, and am ok with the current TCY system. I just wish it wasn't such a slam dunk route to building a great program.

Although the fields of study in TCY are probably even an even more unrealistic aspect, I like how they create imbalances in the game. As a weak school, you can out-recruit a stronger school in certain majors if you're strong in that area. You can emphasize certain majors early in a career to get a jump on good recruits early in your progression, which is something I find kind of fun.

[kingnebwsu]

Boy, the mere mention of Jim's next game (;););)) has produced many great ideas. TCY was so sweet, and I'm sure TCY 2 would have the requisite improvements to make it fannnnnntastic.

[ageofquarrel]

I dont know if it was touched upon in this thread. But I would like to see why a recruit didnt or did come to your school. Just something, doesnt even have to be 100% accurate, about why he chose school A over school B. Maybe an email from the recruit.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Franklin: Good post!

I'm curious, though. I tried playing TCY once with a weak academic school without focusing on the academics, but given its dominant weight in recruiting, and given recruiting's dominant weight in building a good program, I felt like it was like playing FOF without looking at stats. The recruiting "game" seemed to fade away. What kind of house rules do you impose on yourself when you play "without looking at academics" that made it fun and challenging?

Also, did the sol-8 school you built into a powerhouse start with a horrible academic rating? I found the game easy when I played any team (Sol-8 included) that started with solid academics. In essence, once you've got a good academic rating, you can pretty much ignore it as long as you win on the field. The academic rating is the transitional key to getting good recruits and winning games, which is ultimately what drives prestige and gains even better recruits. The AI often makes Sol-8 schools that start the game with strong academics into powerhouses on their own, and they don't focus on academics.

Have you tried to take a crappy academic school with crappy prestige (preferably not a Sol-8 team) and build that into a champion without looking at academics? I would love to hear about the details and how much fun it was to play.

[Franklinnoble]

Franklin: Good post!

I'm curious, though. I tried playing TCY once with a weak academic school without focusing on the academics, but given its dominant weight in recruiting, and given recruiting's dominant weight in building a good program, I felt like it was like playing FOF without looking at stats. The recruiting "game" seemed to fade away. What kind of house rules do you impose on yourself when you play "without looking at academics" that made it fun and challenging?

Also, did the sol-8 school you built into a powerhouse start with a horrible academic rating? I found the game easy when I played any team (Sol-8 included) that started with solid academics. In essence, once you've got a good academic rating, you can pretty much ignore it as long as you win on the field. The academic rating is the transitional key to getting good recruits and winning games, which is ultimately what drives prestige and gains even better recruits. The AI often makes Sol-8 schools that start the game with strong academics into powerhouses on their own, and they don't focus on academics.

Have you tried to take a crappy academic school with crappy prestige (preferably not a Sol-8 team) and build that into a champion without looking at academics? I would love to hear about the details and how much fun it was to play.
Honestly, I can't recall if any of the schools I started with had a bad academic reputation to start with or not. I haven't played TCY in almost a year.

Basically, my M.O. for a Sol-8 school is to focus on local blue-chip talent, and I'm not above bribing them to attend my school. This is actually one of my favorite little elements of realism in the game. :D

[Buccaneer]

I wonder if there are really two wholly different directions to take this game.

Many of the suggestions from the "true believer" college football junkies have practically no appeal to me at all. I don't want more tedium, more steps to sift through between making decisions, more stuff to deal with in recruiting... those are essentially the things that turned me off to the game to begin with. And I'm not sure if Jim gets more customers by adding even more detail that benefits the "hardcore" users of exactly this kind of game.

Is there a different direction to take? Something that might give the game a broader appeal, rather than just a more intense appeal to the same people who would already buy it?

(I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the right thing to do - just curious)
Out of the mouth of a greater elite has more credibility, I hope.

[Buccaneer]

I didn't click on the previous thread but I hope I remembered to add more suggestion on making recruiting (specifically, visit costs) more geographically realistic. That's the game within the game for me.

[Leonidas]

I think Jim really needs to make a TCY2. For the time being he owns the market. No one else has a college football sim. And we are proof there is a lucrative market. If he sits on it and doesn't do this you can bet someone at .400 or somewhere else is going to contract a competitor. There's just too big a market not to, and TCY has been basically the same for several years now. The market is ready for another.

[Abe Sargent]

Okay, so here is what I gotta say:

I think that recruiting becomes *very* monotonous. Part of that is that there are only a few factors that figure into a recruit's decision. Distance, grades, prestige and a few other, smaller factors (coordinator, whether friends from HS go there). I'd like more options.

How about a military preference, for players who want to go to Army, Navy or Air Force. It should be much harder for these teams to get other recruits.

How about a few recruiting tweaks. Why not have double the amount of money and contacts available during your bye week? Why not reduce the cost of visiting a state if you are playing there that week? It might make scheduling a bit more interesting as well.

-Anxiety

[MizzouRah]

Ok, I just had one of those 'eerie' moments this morning where I thought I could come here and see a thread titled, "TCY 2 Q&A - Post your questions for Jim Gindin"


Todd

[Flasch186]

ill buy it cuz i cant find my copy of TCY right now....

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think it's in my other pants. okaythanksbye

[kingnebwsu]

Today for some reason I thought of the Simpsons episode where Otto walks out of the "Stoner's Pot Palace" and says "mannn, that is flagrant false advertising!" Then about 3 hours later, the episode was on TV...eerie!!!

[33sherman]

I hope threads such as these somehow make TCY2 more possible in the near future.

[judicial clerk]

I have not played TCY in a long time. What a GREAT game. I might go reinstall that badboy tonight.

I agree with many of the improvements suggested here, but the reason I would like to see TCY2 is because of the possibilities. i am excited about what jim might do that noone here has even thought of yet.

I also would like to see TCY2 b/c I think it would be a good business decision and i want to see Jim stay successful.

[zentuit]

I've only started playing TCY since Father's Day (thanks girls!). Here's a couple suggestions/thoughts.

Time management:
- how about an "advanced" split grid/detail screen. Grid on left, detail box on right. Each row of grid a player, time blocks the columns. As focus is changed on grid, the players information shows up on the right detail box; basically set of labels. This would allow the user to quickly scan the players. I would probably sort by position or filter by position.

- there is at least one utility out there to help users set their time management screens, i'd investigating stealin^Wincorporating some of the good ideas there. with authors' permission of course :D

Recruiting:
- i agree that academics are heavily weighted. i think there is a 4th determinant at least for the upper level kids; if i go here what's my chances of getting to the pros? not just prestige of the school but actually drafted... well now that i think of it, this would probably be pretty hard to do if you wanted to keep a TCY-FOF linkage.

- here's one that gets me every time i play. i call a recruit, close the dialog box and 1/2 the time forget the response. "rats, was he surprised? did he hate my off coord?" maybe someway to quickly bring up the note field, or just have my assistant save the response. I'd prefer the later.. my carpal tunnel is acting up.

Player development(?):
- I'm not 100% sure that this is or is not already in there; like I said I've just started playing. One thing I'm interested in is the ability of walk-ons to become starters and eventually pro players. Alot (most? all?) of the walkons I see in my game, well, lets say they leave much to be desired. I'm a VaTech alum, Beamer does alot with his walk-ons. there's usually a couple picked up in FA after the draft or some drafted ala John Engleberger and John Burke. (don't know John Burke, heh, not too many people do - he was #2 TE at NE '94-'98(?); played in Superbowl XXXI). Is there the same type of boom/bust situation as FOF?

I'm sure I'll have more.

Thanks for a great set of games, btw. I'm enjoying them immensely.

I'll leave you with a quick story. I was in the hunt for a top rated running back. He was visiting, I just felt good about it. Apparently my wife had been talking to me (oops) and when I didn't nod or grunt at the appropriate time she yelled "TOM!" This caused me to jump, jerk my head up and click the mouse button. :eek: Right on the withdraw offer button for the running back. "WHAT THE H#LL!! LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!" As I ranted at her, she looked at me then broke out laughing, "Tom, its just a game". "BUT, BUT... (whine) he was gonna sign (/whine)"

Tom

[Karlifornia]

1. Scouting reports - I'd like to know everything about the player I'm trying to sign. Example: Joe Blow runs a 4.4 according to his highschool coach we clocked at times of 4.38, 4.43, 4.44 .


Wow. That's a pretty fast coach

[sovereignstar]

Wow. That's a pretty fast coach
LOL

So Joe Blow runs faster than his coach around 66% of the time. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[WSUCougar]

One thing I'm interested in is the ability of walk-ons to become starters and eventually pro players. Alot (most? all?) of the walkons I see in my game, well, lets say they leave much to be desired.
Welcome to the board, Tom.

A comment about the walk-on issue. Just curious if these are unrecruited walk-ons (i.e., the guys the AI places on your team to fill roster gaps), or if you're referring to the non-scholarship guys you can bring on to fill out your 16 slots in each recruiting class. I have honed my walk-on recruiting ability pretty well, seeking out lower-rated guys from high athletic development high schools or high potential guys with low athletic prep. You can also target good students in key majors this way as well.

The trick is that the AI seems to determine walk-on recruits by position, starting with QBs and working its way down one player per position until the 16 slots are filled. So you have to be cautious about who you offer a visit to.

Just some food for thought in case it hadn't occurred to you.

Hilarious story about the wife, by the way. :D

[Godzilla Blitz]

bumpity for Daddy Torgo