I'd hate to be a Royals fan...

[Scholes]

They were beat 9-0 Monday, 4-0 last night and 12-0 tonight by the Twins.

Ouch.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Royals fans? They have those?

[Neuqua]

You think that's bad? Look at what MrBug had made of them in 10+ seasons.

Bug Sucks (http://www.rwbl-ootp-online.com/league/this8.html)

[Swaggs]

You think that's bad? Look at what MrBug had made of them in 10+ seasons.

Bug Sucks (http://www.rwbl-ootp-online.com/league/this8.html)

Damn. You beat me to the punch. :(

[SFL Cat]

I still remember the glory days when the Royals were routinely battling the Yankees for the AL pennant. Where have ya gone, George Brett?

[Ragone]

Its okay really.. people gave up on the royals about a month or so ago.. its just about time for nfl training camps to start though! :)

[mckerney]

Not a bad series for Joe Mauer and the Twins. And Shannon Stewart's coming back soon. :)

#3 can't be that far off.

[the_meanstrosity]

This is a Royals organization without an identity. In the 70's and 80's, the Royals were a great defensive team with speed and quality pitching. During the 90's they tried to become a power hitting club and failed miserably. I'm hoping they go back to the old formula because it was much more fun to watch. They've got some great young arms, but the defense is inept.

[Ragone]

I got yelled at today on the radio.. but i say..

Contract the royals..

[nfg22]

Mauer is rookie of the year....oh and Nathan is cominginto my Grocery Store, the one I work at on saturday.

[Ragone]

I'm through supporting baseball honestly.. the system is broke.. small market teams can't keep good players anymore.. might as well make kc a farm club for the yankees or dodgers.. Think i'll go to the next home game and throw whats left of my half season pass on the field. (41 games worth of tickets.. i've used 10) or maybe i'll give them away to sick kids.. but i wouldn't wanna be responsible for them slipping into a coma watching the royals play

[Ksyrup]

You mean they can't keep players like Carlos Beltran, whose agent is asking for $22M a year? Maybe there's some hope, then.

[Ragone]

Well Scott Boras is a big problem.. But generally speaking.. baseball as a whole is beyond repair.. I'm tired of the false hopes of spring.. i'm tired of a yankee payroll that laps the royals payroll 3 times fold... I'm just tired of the game..

At least i have ootp

[Scholes]

Well Scott Boras is a big problem.. But generally speaking.. baseball as a whole is beyond repair.. I'm tired of the false hopes of spring.. i'm tired of a yankee payroll that laps the royals payroll 3 times fold... I'm just tired of the game..


It doesn't seem to matter to the Twins and A's that the Yankee's payroll is so big. And last I checked the Yankees have won as many world series in the last three seasons as the Royals have.

I agree that the playing field isn't exactly level. But I also know that many people were picking Kansas City to do some things this year, but injuries and an exposed pitching staff put them in a hole that they couldn't get out of. The Twins and Royals situations right now could be reversed with a few lucky breaks, but the Twins have put together a solid organization that recovered from their early season glut of injuries. The Royals just need to do the same, and they look like they're on their way with Greinke, Gobble, Dejesus, etc. There's going to be some clouds before the sunshine, i.e. the Twins from 1994-2000.

Baseball is a great game. I understand you're frustrated at your team's ineptness, but have some faith.

[Ksyrup]

Well Scott Boras is a big problem.. But generally speaking.. baseball as a whole is beyond repair.. I'm tired of the false hopes of spring.. i'm tired of a yankee payroll that laps the royals payroll 3 times fold... I'm just tired of the game..

At least i have ootp
This is such a tired argument. Look at the standings.

[rkmsuf]

more cowbell

[Ragone]

I took a look at the standings.. the royals have lost 53 games.. and the last 3 got outscored like 40-0.. wow.. you are right..

And as far as the twin's/a's go.. they have to try and lock up talented players before they get too good.. otherwise they can't afford to keep them

A's gonna be hurting in a few years when the mulder/zito's come looking for money..

Anyone Want Mike Sweeney.. please?

Bottom line is, And for all i care.. take baseball away from Kansas City... Nobody is going to miss the product on the field.. There is no soul.. no heart.. just a few overpaid veterans and some no where near ready for primetime kids who are going to be ruined by all the losing (greinke, gobble)

Is this necessarily the royals organization fault? Nope.. it's mlb and mlbpa's fault.. But as far as i'm concerned.. i'm done with giving my money/time to real baseball.. How long till training camp for nfl?

[Huckleberry]

just a few overpaid veterans and some no where near ready for primetime kids who are going to be ruined by all the losing (greinke, gobble)

Is this necessarily the royals organization fault? Nope.. it's mlb and mlbpa's fault..

Hmm. So it's not the Royals' fault that they are overpaying veterans and bringing up prospects too early? That's somehow MLB's fault?

[HornedFrog Purple]

I think a point is that the Royals of the league have a far less margin of error in judgement than the Yankees of the league. As an example all the free agents the Yankees have signed over the years haven't all panned out, some downright sucked but they can just keep plugging away until they fill it. A team such as the Royals can't afford to do that.

No team is ever going to make flawless decisions, but a larger market team can afford to make it right or continue to mess up with greater frequency.

I believe that is a form of competitive imbalance IF the teams that receive the larger share of revenue sharing actually used it for the product on the field which in some cases is clearly not happening. That is the first part I would fix if I was commish.

[Ksyrup]

Is this necessarily the royals organization fault? Nope.. it's mlb and mlbpa's fault..
What a joke.

Margin for error for small market/purse teams is one thing. Blaming poor/incompetent management decisions on MLB and the imbalance in payroll is another.

[Cards4ever]

I believe that is a form of competitive imbalance IF the teams that receive the larger share of revenue sharing actually used it for the product on the field which in some cases is clearly not happening. That is the first part I would fix if I was commish.

In some cases it's hard to tell, if they are spending it on the farm system, then you can't see it.

[hoosierdude]

Well one of the major reasons the Royals did so well for so long was the Kaufmann family.

When they passed on, so did the focus and the money available to keep that team at the level it had been under the Kaufmann's. The next 10 yrs or so after that the Royals had and continue to have owners that are more interested in keeping a profit, than building a team and minor leagues the way they should.

Glass isn't the answer for the woes that permeate KC, but they are resigned to having Glass keep them in KC, which was the reason he was selected. Some of my best baseball memories are in KC Memorial Stadium and Royals Stadium. I would hate to see the Kansas City area lose another franchise.

Are they bad? Yes, very much so. Do I still watch the box scores and Fox Midwest to see their games when I can? Yes. Does it hurt to see the haves succeed where the have nots don't? Yes, but nothing will be done with that until it is only ATL , NYY, and LA that are pocketing money and everyone else losing cash.

I believe the Royals will be good again, but they need to focus on what makes a organization and team, defense wins games... even in baseball. Old washed up hitters and pitchers don't win games.

If they do contract baseball in KC and Montreal, like they have hinted before, then I still root for the Cubs and Cards, too. Keeps me rooting for someone when one of my teams bellies up in June like the Royals did ;)

[kcchief19]

You think that's bad? Look at what MrBug had made of them in 10+ seasons.

Bug Sucks (http://www.rwbl-ootp-online.com/league/this8.html)Poor Bug. Don't you know that the reason his team has sucked for so long is because I ran the team for two months in 2002 before HornsGate. All none of those trades and deals I made in those two months set back the franchise so far that Bug still hasn't been able to climb out of the hole despite the fact that it was 12 freakin' years ago.

In case you can't tell I was being sarcastic.

Oh, and fire Tony Pena. I have never seen a bigger bunch of quitters. If we had a manager who cared about winning and less about keeping everybody happy, we'd be in better shape. Somebody like Joe Torre, Lou Pinella or Buck Showalter would have set fire to the clubhouse by now.

[the_meanstrosity]

I'm with Horned Frog in that the margin for error is much smaller for teams that aren't the Yankees. So yes, there are some things that MLB need to improve with regards to revenue sharing.

The front office is also to blame though. The Royals have made their share of boneheaded decisions in recent years. Trading for Neifi Perez was not a good decision. Giving big money to aging vets like Knoblauch (sp?) was not smart. Hiring an unproven Tony Pena instead of Buck Showalter was a poor decision. Yes I know Pena won the AL Manager of the Year last season, but I'm still not impressed with the way he has handled this organization. The Royals needed a house cleaning and they didn't get that way Tony Pena.

It's tough to find fault with Royals management this past off-season. They signed the players they needed to and were applauded for doing so by most people. The fact is they don't have a lot of depth and injuries to starting pitchers and fielders has made it incredibly difficult to win. They saw their window of opportunity and took it. It didn't work now they need to go back and rebuild.

I agree wholeheartedly with the other poster who mentioned defense. Kansas City should be focusing on building up their defense...instead they keep looking for bats. They've got these solid young pitchers and they are surrounding them with below average fielders. Not a great mix.

A new coach may help as well. The Royals are not fundamentally sound by any means and that's throughout the entire organization (minors and majors). It's time to start building an organization.

[sterlingice]

Hmm. So it's not the Royals' fault that they are overpaying veterans and bringing up prospects too early? That's somehow MLB's fault? Ah, welcome to flyover country. I'm sorry you've clearly missed every single argument ever made about the labor situation in baseball, but if you'd like, HFP's quoted post below summarizes things decently.

I think a point is that the Royals of the league have a far less margin of error in judgement than the Yankees of the league. As an example all the free agents the Yankees have signed over the years haven't all panned out, some downright sucked but they can just keep plugging away until they fill it. A team such as the Royals can't afford to do that.

No team is ever going to make flawless decisions, but a larger market team can afford to make it right or continue to mess up with greater frequency.

I believe that is a form of competitive imbalance IF the teams that receive the larger share of revenue sharing actually used it for the product on the field which in some cases is clearly not happening. That is the first part I would fix if I was commish. Say what you will about some teams, but the Royals have tried to up the payroll a decent amount. They started the season around $47M which isn't in the Yankees ballpark by any stretch but is respectable in that they aren't just hoarding the revenue sharing cash. And as Cards4Ever noted, you don't see minor league cash in that number and they've increased that an even higher percentage than the doubling of payroll in the last 5 years.

What a joke.

Margin for error for small market/purse teams is one thing. Blaming poor/incompetent management decisions on MLB and the imbalance in payroll is another.When you can't spend eight figures on a steady and productive Gary Sheffield or Vladimir Guerrero, you have to take some chances. People will look at the Juan Gonzalez signing and say "what a waste- I knew he was going to fail". That's wonderful hindsight, but if you only have $4M to spend, you get a guaranteed average major leaguer or a high-risk/high-reward type guy. There's a decent chance that he spends the entire season on the DL but there's also a chance that he has an MVP-esque season (as he has had in the past). That's all you can do when you have a limited budget. You can either roll the dice on a possible boom/bust guy or get an average major league player . They were trying to win the division this season so you have to take some calculated risks and hope it works out.

SI

[Huckleberry]

Ah, welcome to flyover country. I'm sorry you've clearly missed every single argument ever made about the labor situation in baseball, but if you'd like, HFP's quoted post below summarizes things decently.

It seems you are the one that missed the point. I was responding specifically to his assertion that the Royals' roster is comprised of overpaid veterans and kids too young to be there. It doesn't matter if the Royals lose their players because of the inequities of baseball or can't afford to sign anyone else's players, neither of those two problems is required by that situation. Those two aspects of the Royals' roster are their fault.

[sterlingice]

It seems you are the one that missed the point. I was responding specifically to his assertion that the Royals' roster is comprised of overpaid veterans and kids too young to be there. It doesn't matter if the Royals lose their players because of the inequities of baseball or can't afford to sign anyone else's players, neither of those two problems is required by that situation. Those two aspects of the Royals' roster are their fault.
When you can't afford to pay Yankee rates for players then *you have to* comprise your roster of vets who are too old and kids too young to be there because you can't afford to put anyone else in those spots. Particularly if you are a team who expected to compete this season. You can't just keep throwing away cycles of 4 and 5 years at a time trying to rebuild- at some point, you have to say "this looks like it could be our year" and go for it.

SI

[Huckleberry]

When you can't afford to pay Yankee rates for players then *you have to* comprise your roster of vets who are too old and kids too young to be there because you can't afford to put anyone else in those spots. Particularly if you are a team who expected to compete this season. You can't just keep throwing away cycles of 4 and 5 years at a time trying to rebuild- at some point, you have to say "this looks like it could be our year" and go for it.

SI

Yes, you usually have to have older veterans to fill the roster. But what requires you to overpay for them? I would much rather know that my team is taking its time with its prospects and fielding a below average squad until they're ready than burn the kids in the bigs while also paying way too much money to a bunch of knuckleheads.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Say what you will about some teams, but the Royals have tried to up the payroll a decent amount. They started the season around $47M which isn't in the Yankees ballpark by any stretch but is respectable in that they aren't just hoarding the revenue sharing cash. And as Cards4Ever noted, you don't see minor league cash in that number and they've increased that an even higher percentage than the doubling of payroll in the last 5 years.

I wasn't specifically ripping on the Royals, but there are more clearer examples of it taking place. Also you bring up another point. More base revenue has the potential for a better minor league and development system.

But all in all, you can't make up for incompetent management. All I can say is thank the Lord for Grady Fuson coming to Texas because in his brief stay he has done a wonderful job of establishing a decent foundation in the minor leagues for the Rangers and protested quite a few trade offers that Hart and Hicks wanted to do.

[sterlingice]

Yes, you usually have to have older veterans to fill the roster. But what requires you to overpay for them? I would much rather know that my team is taking its time with its prospects and fielding a below average squad until they're ready than burn the kids in the bigs while also paying way too much money to a bunch of knuckleheads.
Point to the ones that looked like awful signings, citing statistics from before the season. Clearly it didn't work now and if Allard Baird had a time machine, I doubt he'd be sitting there right now going "Golly, you know these should have worked on paper and I'll just let my team ride this crap season out" but hindsight it 20-20. Use PECOTA, for instance, or other projections. Not just selective "well, Gonzalez has been hurt a lot" or "Brian Anderson had a crappy 2001".

SI

[mckerney]

The main reason the Twins have been able to remain competitive is Terry Ryan has done a great job putting this team together and I have no idea where the team would be without him. As far as teams needed to be able to retain their top players, the team has been able to hold onto a few top players, but over the last few years they've lost/traded David Ortiz, Matt Lawton, A.J. Pierzynski, Eric Milton, Latroy Hawkins, Eddie Guardado, Mark Redman. Ryan has managed to get good value when he did have to trade a player, and the minor leagues have been absolute stocked. Their depth at outfield has been very good, and provided them with good trade bait with guys like Dustin Mohr, Bobby Kielty, and Brian Buchanon, and they still have guys like Lew Ford, Mike Ryan, Mike Cuddyer and Michael Restovich. Add to that the fact that they have top prospects like Jesse Crain and Justin Morneu still in AAA, it's hard to imagine that there are many GMs in any sport that have done a better than Terry Ryan has with the Twins.

[Huckleberry]

Point to the ones that looked like awful signings, citing statistics from before the season. Clearly it didn't work now and if Allard Baird had a time machine, I doubt he'd be sitting there right now going "Golly, you know these should have worked on paper and I'll just let my team ride this crap season out" but hindsight it 20-20. Use PECOTA, for instance, or other projections. Not just selective "well, Gonzalez has been hurt a lot" or "Brian Anderson had a crappy 2001".

SI

Well, to reiterate, I was working solely off what the previous poster said. He is the one that stated they had overpaid veterans. I haven't done an analysis of the Royals' moves.

That being said, you can't simply ignore Gonzalez's injury history when analyzing his signing. It is a very important piece of the puzzle. To sign a player you know is injury prone and then claim you were burned when he got hurt is foolish. He played in 70 and 82 games the last two season. That is known information.

That being said, IIRC, you guys didn't really overpay for him too badly. What is he making? $4M range? Anderson was not a bad signing, but I once again don't know how much he's making.

Looking over the signings, it doesn't really look like the Royals made that many bad moves. So I guess the problem here is that the previous Royals fan had an overly negative take on the Royals' veteran signings. I was merely commenting on the fallacy of blaming poor management decisions on MLB.

[sterlingice]

That being said, IIRC, you guys didn't really overpay for him too badly. What is he making? $4M range? Anderson was not a bad signing, but I once again don't know how much he's making.

Looking over the signings, it doesn't really look like the Royals made that many bad moves. So I guess the problem here is that the previous Royals fan had an overly negative take on the Royals' veteran signings. I was merely commenting on the fallacy of blaming poor management decisions on MLB.
Fair enough. I just read something into your previous posts that wasn't there. My bad.

These figures are off the top of my head so they might be off a little. Gonzalez was signed for $4M and a 500K buyout for next season. Anderson is making in the mid 3's and somehow has forgotten how to pitch overnight. Santiago signed for just over $2 and got old almost overnight (it was bound to happen) and the same is true of Curtis Leskanic. Randa signed for below market value but has missed significant time. Matt Stairs, Scott Sullivan, and Tony Graffanino have been playing close to what they were paid, give or take. Call it karmic payback as all the good luck that they got last year is getting repaid in triplicate.

SI

[Ragone]

Sure, every team makes mistakes with veterans.. only difference is.. If the royals make a mistake with a veteran.. it costs them the ability to resign a useful player.. if the yankee's make a mistake with a veteran.. they just sign another player in the next offseason to replace him

Only thing that will save baseball is full revenue sharing of local tv contracts.. and a Salary Floor (not cap, if yankee's still wanna spend 150 mill with full sharing then so be it) Forcing teams to have a certain payroll(lets say 50m) or forfeit their revenue share for that year.


I dunno if you missed it or not Si.. but leskanic got waived already, also look at the projected draft posistion of scott boras clients and who ends up picking them. Thats another good example. i think his top 2 were projected like 1-3.. and they ended up being picked around 11-15.. Yet boras still thinks they should be paid like a 1-3

[sterlingice]

I dunno if you missed it or not Si.. but leskanic got waived already, also look at the projected draft posistion of scott boras clients and who ends up picking them. Thats another good example. i think his top 2 were projected like 1-3.. and they ended up being picked around 11-15.. Yet boras still thinks they should be paid like a 1-3
Yeah, Leskanic and his 8+ ERA got released and picked up by Boston, IIRC. Word is that his elbow injury is worse than he let on but he kept wanting to go out there because he had incentives based on the number of games he was in.

As for the Boras draft picks from this year, Weaver and Drew went in the middle of the 1st round, yes. However, he's still trying to sell his guys as #1 type talents (which they were) so if Anaheim and Arizona pony up top talent cash then it doesn't matter where they were picked.

SI

[Ragone]

Thats what i'm saying.. mlb teams need to treat draft picks like nfl does.. slot them pay wise.. and respect that scale. You do realize the royals originally drafted mark prior.. with prior last year they would have been a playoff team.. for sure :)

[sterlingice]

Thats what i'm saying.. mlb teams need to treat draft picks like nfl does.. slot them pay wise.. and respect that scale. You do realize the royals originally drafted mark prior.. with prior last year they would have been a playoff team.. for sure :)
Yeah, but stuff like that is fickle. Who knows if he would be the pitcher he was if he had gone through their system instead of college and the Cubs system.

That said, I don't see why the union doesn't allow for slotted draft picks but Fehr is allergic to anything he perceives as taking money away from the players even if it goes to people who aren't in the union (minors are technically not in the union). You'd think it would be better spent on veteran members who are in the union, but, of course not. It's better to have the ridiculous system in place. Especially considering draft picks are much more of a crap shoot than in any other sport.

SI

[VIKING FAN]

''''Bottom line is, And for all i care.. take baseball away from Kansas City... Nobody is going to miss the product on the field.. There is no soul.. no heart.. just a few overpaid veterans and some no where near ready for primetime kids who are going to be ruined by all the losing''''''

For Carl Pohlad, the reason for poor Twins crowds has been, and always will be, the cruddy ballpark, even though the team has been great the last few years. He wants a nice outdoor stadium. But KC already has that and there's no interest because the team is lousy. There is no answer!!

[SackAttack]

"Save baseball"?

The Yankees have been outspending the rest of the major leagues for almost a century now. They've won 26 World Series in the last 86 years, and probably about half the AL pennants, and yet there's been ample opportunity for other franchises to develop storied histories of their own.

Save baseball? Baseball has done just fine despite their spending, and will continue to.

The sky isn't falling, Chicken Little. Small-market and middle-market franchises have made bad decisions throughout baseball history, and continue to do so. This isn't news. The only difference is who the fuckups are from year to year.

[Ragone]

Well if any small/middle market club had a 100m+ feeder income coming in.. i'm pretty sure they'd be doing alot better..