Pre-Flop Poker Strategy Question

[Vince]

You're at a full (10) table, in the small blind. You're dealt pocket Queens, and the first six to act limp in. Dealer and Dealer - 1 Fold. What's your action?

[SonyLuang]

RAISE.. with 10 people? ... Small Blind.. man who cares... if a K or A comes on the flop... you can either check it or fold..

[Ragone]

I think i'd call.. then bet/raise if no overcards flop.. A raise is going to drive out marginal hands.. unless its a small raise.. So really the money is better spent on a call.. and from there you can determine if its worth pursuing.. you got a better chance of a marginal hand say.. making a lower pair (say jacks)
and trapping them for more money.. then you do by driving people out preflop.

and it saves you money if the flop is poor (king ace 5 flop for instance)

[TredWel]

Having big pairs in the small blind kills me, especially when 6 people limp in before you, and they're just going to call your raise pre-flop. Queens 7-way are nice, but probably don't help my bottom line in the long run. I'd call, and try a check-raise on the flop if you still have an overpair in an attempt at protecting your hand. If an overcard falls, use your discretion. If the action's heavy, get out. Otherwise, if one player bets and a bunch call, you still may be getting odds to spike the set.

[JHandley]

You absolutely raise. Raising pre-flop accomplishes two things: Raising the money in the pot and pushing out marginal hands. If you just call, and the flop comes J, 10, 6, then the guy who limped in with his J6o is a heavy favorite. All the while, your Q's will still look golden to you. If you had raised pre-flop, there's a good chance he would have folded.

If you slowplay a strong hand, you lose all rights to bitching about a bad beat. That's the trade-off.

I should add, from my experience, this advice is really only good on 2/4 limit tables and up. Anything lower than that and there's a very good chance that you're playing with poor players who figure "What's another quarter?"

[cthomer5000]

if you're playing online, raising won't push out anyone. maybe 1 person, max. i think that warrants consideration.

[Samdari]

if you're playing online, raising won't push out anyone. maybe 1 person, max. i think that warrants consideration.

True - but I think this is even more reason to raise. When you have the best hand, you want as many people to call as high a bet as possible. Being online and having weaker opps call raises will increase the chance of a weaker hand beating you, but the expected return will go up, assuming that you are the favorite (which you would assume with all the limpers).

[QuikSand]

You have to work your way pretty well up in level before a raise in this situation will cause many people (who have already put in one bet) to drop. In the casino games I frequently play, either $6/$12 or $10/$20, you can still count on 75% of the one-bet callers to stay in to see the flop... frequently even more than that.

If you raise pre-flop here, then I think a check-raise is the right move on the flop almost no matter what. If an overcard flops, you are almost certainly behind (at most levels, many players will play any ace from any position, and lots of kings as well) -- run your check-raise anyway, even if there is a K out there, and represent that you are playing AK, AA, or KK (those are the most likely raising hands from the small blind anyway). There's at least a chance that you either win the hand with the move, or else cool off the betting for the turn (if you lead with a check) ... allowing you a shot at a free card on the river, with a hope to pull your two-outer.

[QuikSand]

Another thing to consider is that with that many limpers (many of whom are playing a high card), it's certainly possible that the aces and kings are largely dead anyway -- there might only be three or four overcards left in that deck to potentially appear on the flop (not eight), increasing the odds that your queens hold up anyway.

[JHandley]

I agree that with that many limpers, there probably aren't many overcards left in the deck. However, I think it's the weak two pair that you want to scare off, or punish for waiting on it. Also, it gives someone holding an AJ, KQ, AT, something along those lines, a chance to re-raise you. On the casino tables I play, a limper will call another 4 bucks with J6o, but is very unlikely to call another 8.

[Vegas Vic]

You should raise with any pocket pair in the SB with six limpers.

[primelord]

I agree that with that many limpers, there probably aren't many overcards left in the deck. However, I think it's the weak two pair that you want to scare off, or punish for waiting on it. Also, it gives someone holding an AJ, KQ, AT, something along those lines, a chance to re-raise you. On the casino tables I play, a limper will call another 4 bucks with J6o, but is very unlikely to call another 8.
While raising is absolutely correct you are not going to drive out that J6o you are mentioning. If a limper was willing to throw in a bet in the first place with J6o they are certainly not going to fold it getting a likely 12:1 or better on their money when it comes back to them.

Also if you are plaing at tables where people like to limp re-raise a field of 7 players with AJ, KQ, or AT I want to know where those tables are! That is the kind of table I want to be at. :)

[Radii]

You have the best hand, raise it. You're not just trying to drive people out. There are many times where your queens won't hold up, espicially with 6 people calling pre-flop, but when they do hold up you should win more than enough to offset the losses, and getting as much money as you can into the pot while you're almost certainly ahead is the way to go.


You should raise with any pocket pair in the SB with six limpers.

I know this is true but I never have the guts to do it with anything below tens. A hole I need to work on I suppose.

[JHandley]

While raising is absolutely correct you are not going to drive out that J6o you are mentioning. If a limper was willing to throw in a bet in the first place with J6o they are certainly not going to fold it getting a likely 12:1 or better on their money when it comes back to them.

Also if you are plaing at tables where people like to limp re-raise a field of 7 players with AJ, KQ, or AT I want to know where those tables are! That is the kind of table I want to be at. :)

Fair enough, I was trying to come up with an example of a hand that someone might be able to talk themselves into limping in with, but knew it wasn't a strong hand if someone, or three, made a move. Also, I've noticed a lot of people fall into a trap of slowplaying their strong hands, usually the best hand after the flop and then can't figure out why they keep taking so many bad beats. I think an overpair is a very risky hand to try and slowplay.

You gotta come to Seattle. There's a couple Indian casino's that run 4/8 tables where that's an acceptable play. I go there to bankroll the card rooms where I try and improve my game by playing against people who don't quote "Rounders" on a routine basis.

[primelord]

]If you raise pre-flop here, then I think a check-raise is the right move on the flop almost no matter what. If an overcard flops, you are almost certainly behind (at most levels, many players will play any ace from any position, and lots of kings as well) -- run your check-raise anyway, even if there is a K out there, and represent that you are playing AK, AA, or KK (those are the most likely raising hands from the small blind anyway). There's at least a chance that you either win the hand with the move, or else cool off the betting for the turn (if you lead with a check) ... allowing you a shot at a free card on the river, with a hope to pull your two-outer.
I don't think I agree that a check-raise regardless of what falls is the right play here. If both an A and a K fall on the flop you are almost certainly drawing to two outs. If only one overcard falls I think the check-raise makes much more sense if the overcard is a K rather than an A. Also betting out will generally give you a better idea of where you stand when an overcard is on the board. An A or a K are almost certainly going to raise your bet. Where as they might lead out themselves with a lesser hand.

I also don't think you will be able to buy a free card on the turn considering you have such a large field, an overcard is likely to hit such a large field, you are way out of position, and it is a low-llimit game.

[Honolulu Blue]

My Hold 'em experience is pretty limited, but a raise seems the best play here. It should be best if everyone calls, and it should hold up if only one or two call. What would worry me most is a reraise, which doesn't seem too likely under the circumstances.

[Vince]

Good discussion. I was just curious, as I downloaded an excel sheet that has a pre-flop decision making quiz on it...it apparently follows the guidelines of either Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players or Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em. When it dealt me this situation, my first reaction was to instantly raise, and it told me that it was an incorrect play. I can see arguing for either choice (call or raise), but I think that I'm going to raise in that situation 9 times out of 10.

[Vegas Vic]

it apparently follows the guidelines of either Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players or Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em.

Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones is full of errors that will have you playing overly weak/tight and fearing "the monsters in the closet."

I would highly recommend the new release "Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big with Expert Play", by Ed Miller. Unlike many other books about small stakes games, it teaches the aggressive and attacking style used by professional players.

[Radii]

I would highly recommend the new release "Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big with Expert Play", by Ed Miller. Unlike many other books about small stakes games, it teaches the aggressive and attacking style used by professional players.


Interesting. I'll have to check that one out, I don't think I'd heard of it.

Have you read Gary Carson's book? Any thoughts on that? It comes up a lot on another board I read,mainly for the detail he goes into on raising with draws when you have direct odds to do so.