OT: Hold'em - Play along in this hand

[primelord]

Ok I did a hand like this a little while back. I am going to post a hold'em hand at each stage and allow anyone who wants to participate to weigh in on the action they think should be taken. I was the 'hero' in this particular hand and I was confused on more or less every street on the best way to play it. I am interested to see how you guys would play it.

I hadn't been at the table long so I didn't have any good reads on the opponents.

2/4 Hold'em 9 handed and our hero is UTG+2 with Kd, Ks. In this hand MP2 posted a $2 blind.

Preflop: UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero re-raises, MP1 caps, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

I am assuming everyone here would 3 bet in that situation so I didn't bother to pause there.

Flop: (13 sb) 3s, Qh, Qs (3 players)
UTG checks, Our hero....

What is your action?

[TRO]

2/4 Hold'em 9 handed and our hero is UTG with Kd, Ks. In this hand MP2 posted a $2 blind.

Preflop: UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero re-raises, MP1 caps, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

I'm confused, "our hereo is UTG" yet there is a UTG and Hero referenced as two separate players.

I'd be inclined to bet here, but I hate my high pair in the flop play.

[SirFozzie]

bets.. trying to gather more information about my opponent's hand.

[primelord]

I'm confused, "our hereo is UTG" yet there is a UTG and Hero referenced as two separate players.

I'd be inclined to bet here, but I hate my high pair in the flop play.
Sorry my bad. I left off the +2. Our hero is UTG+2. I have corrected it in the initial post.

[cthomer5000]

Either bet out or check-raise. I think calling is the worst move here.

[primelord]

Flop: (13 sb) 3s, Qh, Qs (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks (w/the intention of check raising), MP1 bets, UTG raises, Hero...

Now that UTG check raised what is our plan?

[digamma]

bets.. trying to gather more information about my opponent's hand.
this was my thought too. i think we learn a heck of a lot more about the other two players by betting.

[Coffee Warlord]

All In, hold onto your hat.

[cthomer5000]

Tough call really. I think you're probably beat, but at 2-4 anything can be going on there. Someone probably has AK, and someone probably has pocket 8's or something.

I guess I call and pray I at least see a spade hit the board.

[digamma]

50-50 between a call and a lay down for me. I think the check raiser probably has either aces or a queen and the MP is probably on a draw.

[primelord]

Flop: (13 sb) 3s, Qh, Qs (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks (w/the intention of check raising), MP1 bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9.5 BB) 6d (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero....

[SirFozzie]

With 9.5 BB + the UTG Bet in there, I would call. I think I'm beat at this point,but Pot Odds.

[Huckleberry]

I would probably call for the same reason.

[primelord]

Flop: (13 sb) 3s, Qh, Qs (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks (w/the intention of check raising), MP1 bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9.5 BB) 6d (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.5 BB) 6s (3 players)

UTG bets, Hero...

[cthomer5000]

With 9.5 BB + the UTG Bet in there, I would call. I think I'm beat at this point,but Pot Odds.What Pot Odds? If you think you're beat here, we're pretty much screwed. I think that is someone does have a queen that there is a fair chance they are holding KQ or AQ. The other guy may be holding AK or holding anything on a flush draw.

If we think we're beat, we have at most 2 outs. (edit to remove my moronic point).

If I'm calling, I can't really see pot odds as the justification. The only thinking can be that there is a pretty good chance someones on a draw and the other guy just doesn't have a queen (or aces).

[Subby]

You have enough money in the pot now that you obviously have to call, although I am putting UTG on the full house...

[primelord]

If we think we're beat, we have at most 2 outs, maybe even just 1, or maybe drawing dead altogether (if they're holding KQ).
Before we go further it's probably important to point out that we are not drawing dead against KQ.

[primelord]

What Pot Odds? If you think you're beat here, we're pretty much screwed. I think that is someone does have a queen that there is a fair chance they are holding KQ or AQ. The other guy may be holding AK or holding anything on a flush draw.

If we think we're beat, we have at most 2 outs, maybe even just 1, or maybe drawing dead altogether (if they're holding KQ).

If I'm calling, I can't really see pot odds as the justification. The only thinking can be that there is a pretty good chance someones on a draw and the other guy just doesn't have a queen (or aces).
The size of the pot should be the biggest factor in whether or not you call here. Even if you think you are beat most of the time you only have to have the best hand here more than 10% of the time to justify a call.

[cthomer5000]

Before we go further it's probably important to point out that we are not drawing dead against KQ.
duh, yeah good point. Temporary insanity there. :(

[primelord]

duh, yeah good point. Temporary insanity there. :(
No problem I just thought it might affect your decision. :)

Well here is how the hand played out.

Flop: (13 sb) 3s, Qh, Qs (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks (w/the intention of check raising), MP1 bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9.5 BB) 6d (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.5 BB) 6s (3 players)

UTG bets, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 14.5 BB

UTG shows 8d, 8c
MP1 shows Ac, Jc
Hero is an idiot.

[Subby]

Ack...

[cthomer5000]

MP1 calling with that on the river almost blows my mind. Definitely make sure you play with that guy again.

[primelord]

I thought this hand was interesting because in the heat of the moment I was confused on most streets, but I didn't think my decisions were that bad. However after looking back on the hand and discussing it elsewhere I realize I played this hand about as poorly as it can be played.

Flop: I absolutely shoud have bet out here. Just the fact that there are two Qs out there makes it unlikely anyone is holding a Q. So a bet helps protect my hand by hopefully making someone with an A fold (even though they didn't) and it's likely I still have the best hand.

Turn: I think calling the turn was fine, but a raise probably would have been better. That probably would have pushed the guy with the A out of the hand and if it is likely my hand is the best on the flop the 6 certainly shouldn't have changed that.

River: The river fold was just awful. The pot was pretty huge and the second 6 really doesn't change much. It's possible it finishes off the flush for MP1, but given the preflop action I am not sure whether that's the best hand to put him on. So for one more big bet in a big pot I really should have called.

I got it in my head that UTG probably had a Q. However that is 1) not a very good read as there are quite a few more hands he could be playing in that fashion that don't have a Q and that I am still ahead of and 2) if I really did think he had a Q then drawing to my 2 K outs was not the right play either.

So not only did I make a poor read, but then I didn;t even play properly according to that read. Good times. :)

[primelord]

MP1 calling with that on the river almost blows my mind. Definitely make sure you play with that guy again.
Yeah that is an unbelieveable call even for Party 2/4 standards. However I am very glad he did. Otherwise I wouldn't have seen UTG's cards and I probably would have convinced myself that he did in fact have a Q and that I didn't play the hand that poorly.

[cthomer5000]

I guess the decision really had to be to either fold on the flop or ride it all the way out.

[Coffee Warlord]

Heh, I didn't even notice it was 2/4, and not NL.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, but I still think I would have ridden that to the end.

[primelord]

Heh, I didn't even notice it was 2/4, and not NL.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, but I still think I would have ridden that to the end.
I thoguht you were just kidding on your all-in comment. :)

[Coffee Warlord]

I thoguht you were just kidding on your all-in comment. :)

I actually WOULD have gone all-in after the first guy checked at the flop.

It's a fairly big risk, but with only 2 other players, and the only real kiss of death card being a Q, it was one I woulda taken (mind you, on a small buy in game, not on some massive stakes game)

[Radii]

Who are you on 2+2? I read this thread today :)

I think I raise the turn, and just call it down if I'm re-raised, no way do I get away from this hand at Party 2/4 without a very good read on the players I'm up against.

[primelord]

Who are you on 2+2? I read this thread today :)

I think I raise the turn, and just call it down if I'm re-raised, no way do I get away from this hand at Party 2/4 without a very good read on the players I'm up against.
Heh I am the one who started the thread. :)

[Vegas Vic]

Here is some invaluable advice from Ed Miller, author of a newly released Small Stakes holdem book:

"WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET! Just stop doing it.

You know those guys that play "fearless" poker and seem to win? When the pot is big, it is time to play fearless. Throw in that extra bet or raise. If you crash and burn, so be it. That is winning poker, though. If you don't have the stomach for it, take up tiddle-e-winks.

The time to save bets is when the pot is small. Make your prudent folds in the four-ways for one bet pots."

Link to full post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=462860&page=&view=&sb=5&o=)

[Huckleberry]

Yeah, at Party Poker after that Flop, the only way I could see folding KK is if an Ace hit the board and MP1, who was only calling everything after the post-flop bet out, finally raised. And even then it would be a tough fold at Party.

[primelord]

Vic,

That is a great thread and one I chose to ignore despite the fact that I had read it long before I played this hand. Let me ask you this though. Since I had put MP1 on a flush draw I was afraid by calling one more bet it would be raied behind me and then possibly 3 bet by UTG. Again I don;t thinkw e need to discuss the read because I think it was a poor one.

However do you still think it is correct to call one more bet if you think it is going to come back to you for two more? FWIW if I had been clsoing the action there is no way I would have folded this hand. Not that it justifies folding when I did. :)

[Vegas Vic]

Primelord,

It is possible that he was on a flush draw, but more likely that he wasn't. Even if he was, he's not going to raise the river on a double-paired board.

My general rule of thumb in low-limit is to never fold a pocket overpair in a huge pot. If you make a bad call, you waste a bet. If you fold, you lose the entire pot, and it's a mathematical catastrophe.

[Radii]

a mathematical catastrophe.


I absolutely love this phrase. Of all the terms I read in theory of poker and HEFAP, "mathematical catastrophe" is far and away my favorite, it just has the greatest ring to it.

The local B&N didn't have the Small Stakes book you're referring to when I went today, so I bought the only 7-card stud book they carried, by Ashley Adams, I wanted a book on stud, and I'm sure there are better but the name recognition from RGP was enough to get me to toss $15 her way.

[primelord]

I absolutely love this phrase. Of all the terms I read in theory of poker and HEFAP, "mathematical catastrophe" is far and away my favorite, it just has the greatest ring to it.

The local B&N didn't have the Small Stakes book you're referring to when I went today, so I bought the only 7-card stud book they carried, by Ashley Adams, I wanted a book on stud, and I'm sure there are better but the name recognition from RGP was enough to get me to toss $15 her way.
Small Stakes Hold'em just started shipping today. They said that B&N likely won't have it until late in the month because of the way they do their shipping. Borders and Amazon should have it some time next week.

[robbgmaier]

MP1 calling with that on the river almost blows my mind. Definitely make sure you play with that guy again.
i dunno, maybe the first guy just had his K3 counterfeited and is hoping his king is good :)

[sabotai]

The local B&N didn't have the Small Stakes book you're referring to when I went today, so I bought the only 7-card stud book they carried, by Ashley Adams, I wanted a book on stud, and I'm sure there are better but the name recognition from RGP was enough to get me to toss $15 her way.

That's the one I have. I think it's good, but it's also the only one I read, so I have nothing to compare it too (but I've done well at the low limit Stud tables on PokerStars thus far).

[Vegas Vic]

Far be it from me to spam the forum here, but I think that there is something for everyone in Ed Miller's new book. Whether you play 2-4 or 30-60, the topics that are covered encompass the loose games that are becoming common in B&M and internet play.

[cthomer5000]

You're referring to 'Small Stakes Hold 'Em' right?

[Vegas Vic]

You're referring to 'Small Stakes Hold 'Em' right?

Correct, sir.

[cthomer5000]

Good. Ordered it yesterday. :)