The feeling is mutual, I hate those bastards

[Fritz]

(okay, I know this is fox)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126401,00.html

USA: Land of the Free, Home of the Evil?

SEATTLE — Evil — a word usually reserved for the likes of Adolph Hitler or Usama bin Laden — is now being used by more than a third of Canadian teens to describe the United States.

In a recent poll, 40 percent of Canadian teens said the United States is a force for evil in the world, with 50 percent saying it’s a force for good and 10 percent reporting they were undecided on the subject. French-Canadians (search) were even harsher, with 64 percent of them calling America a force for evil.

“What they’re reacting to is a sense that the U.S. is belligerent,” said the pollster who conducted the phone survey, Greg Lyle. “The U.S. is sort of bellicose, warmongering [and has] this sort of cowboy diplomacy.”

But former Canadian diplomat Martin Collacot (search) says the teens are responding to cues from their government, the media and their teachers.

The anti-Americanism from the United States' northern neighbors seemed to peak when the Iraq war started.

In one incident, hockey fans in Montreal booed during the playing of the American national anthem. Then-Prime Minister Jean Chretien’s spokesman was caught on mike calling President Bush a moron. And while the streets of Quebec (search) were filled with war protesters, a member of Parliament from the ruling Labor Party was quoted as saying: “Damn Americans. I hate those bastards.”

[rkmsuf]

Canadians are so cute

[Samdari]

Canadians are so cute

especially the Flames girls

[sachmo71]

I don't blame them. If you follow the trail in the media, we declared war for no reason only after lying to the world and saying that we had a legitimate reason, and now that we are there, everyone is dying and heads are being cut off. Oh yeah we torture innocent people, too.

Now take your average teenager and think about how much of an opinion they will form for themselves.

[nfg22]

looks like a low number polled to me...40 percent 50 percent and 10...looks like ten or twenty people to me...

[Draft Dodger]

if your country mascot was a beaver, you'd have some angst as well...

[rkmsuf]

depends what the beaver looked like

[Maple Leafs]

You would have thought we'd have had a thread about this already...

[Subby]

This is the kind of crap Bubba Wheels would post.

[Ksyrup]

Doesn't he get out of the lock box today?

[cuervo72]

if your country mascot was a beaver, you'd have some angst as well...

I'm still irked that I bought an old Canadian Monopoly set (special edition from some years back with the "flag" box) that didn't have the beaver token.

[rkmsuf]

"Nice beaver."

"Thank you. I just had it stuffed."

[Sharpieman]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, why do you care what Canada thinks?

[Travis]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, why do you care what Canada thinks?

Classy

On that note, don't feel too bad. 45% of all Canadians think our own government is evil.

[Sharpieman]

My post wasn't supposed to be classy, it was supposed to state the truth. The majority of Americans don't care what Canadians think. I guess you got mad or something because I said that, I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.

[Travis]

So, you're asking him why he isn't like a majority of other American's, not worried about the outside world's opinion of your country? Even the country that is generally looked upon as your 'little brother'?

Now, the question begging to be asked is (and this is seperate entirely from the original poll), should American's give a damn what the outside world thinks? I for one would say yes, but I'd also say 'eh' after, so that disqualifies my answer.

[NoMyths]

The majority of Americans don't care what anyone else thinks. Including other Americans.

[Tzar007]

I am Canadian (I live in Montreal) and I am not really surprised at these survey numbers.

Ask Europeans or pretty much any other country on the planet and the results will probably be similar.

America is basically seen, for right and wrong reasons, as a militaristic power, and this perception has vastly increased in the recent years. Under Bush father and Clinton, America was more careful when it was time to wield its global military power. Both former presidents made sure they had wide international consensus before deciding on using military power, whether it was in the first Gulf war or Kosovo. As we all know, Bush son has a different attitude towards international consensus.

I don’t think people believe America is now in evil empire, that is going too far. But people certainly don’t trust America anymore. People are sceptic and cynical when they hear Bush speaking about democracy, human rights or freedom. These days, people believe that America is using its power exclusively to further its selfish interests on the world stage, in spite of the nice speeches about democracy, peace and freedom. The anger of the whole planet is probably also the result of disappointment. People expect a lot from America because deep down, even if today they don’t want to admit it, people around the world usually have a high opinion of the American civilization and everything it has accomplished, be it in the social, scientific or economic fields. Seeing America resorting to blunt and reckless military interventions like a low-class bully state would do is a disappointment.

Somehow, I believe this is the result of the end of the Cold War and communism. At the time, America was respected and seen as the leader of the free world. Americans took this role seriously. It was a mission Americans were ready to do. But these days are gone. Since the communist enemy has disappear, “leader of the free world” rings like an hollow slogan now. America is still a superpower, the only one left, but I believe Americans themselves are still searching what role they should now play in this new world. When September 11 struck, I certainly thought that America had found that new role: leader of the war against terrorism. Unfortunately, the Bush administration totally scrapped the worldwide capital of sympathy America had on Sept. 12, 2001. This day, the most important French newspaper published a large picture of the Worl Trade Center in flames, and the headline was “We Are All Americans”....this wave of sympathy and support is not about to come back. By mixing up all together WMDs, Iraq and terrorism, which are all very different issues, the Bush administration confused everybody. The fact that finally no WMDs were ever found in Iraq only increased the cynicism towards the real motives for invading Iraq.

So there you have it. But time goes by, and in the long run, I expect this anger towards America to gradually subside. At some point, the situation in Iraq will stabilize one way or the other, America might withdraw, people will slowly forget. Still, it is saddening to see that the Bush administration has wasted such an incredible opportunity after 911 to forge a new global leadership where most of the planet would have rallied behind America and American values.

[Sharpieman]

So, you're asking him why he isn't like a majority of other American's, not worried about the outside world's opinion of your country? Even the country that is generally looked upon as your 'little brother'?

Now, the question begging to be asked is (and this is seperate entirely from the original poll), should American's give a damn what the outside world thinks? I for one would say yes, but I'd also say 'eh' after, so that disqualifies my answer.
Oh I'm worried about what the outside world thinks. To the fullest extent. However, Canada really isn't my biggest concern right now. I care more about improving relations with middle eastern countries and European countries rather than Canada. Why? Because I know if Americans vote for a better President aka John Kerry, the Canadian leadership and European leadership will look to the US as its friendly superpower again. Bush has completely screwed up in trying to smooth over any kind of relations with the outside world.

So, in short, I don't care what Canadians think because I already know what they think, I hate Bush too.

[Honolulu_Blue]

You would have thought we'd have had a thread about this already...

Yeah... you would have thought...

[mking]

(okay, I know this is fox)
[url]And while the streets of Quebec (search) were filled with war protesters, a member of Parliament from the ruling Labor Party was quoted as saying: “Damn Americans. I hate those bastards.”
Everything I read from and about Fox News shows what a bunch of morons they are. Do they get paid to be stupid and ignorant and full of crap? How can anyone with half a brain take them seriously?

There is no Labor Party in the Canadian Parliament, ruling Party or otherwise. And if there was, it wouldn't be called the Labor Party, it would be called the Labour party.

They can't even get the basic facts of how the government is structured, so how can they get anything right?

It is stories like these that give the USA a bad name in Canada (if indeed it does have a bad name). I certainly wouldn't know because this story is crap and has no credibility.

[Dutch]

To be fair, the rest of the world cared when Iraq invaded Kuwait because their oil prices were going up. That's why it was so "easy" to get world support.

After the World Trade Center blew up and the Europeans continued to protest America and the European and Middle Eastern media praised terrorists that fought America, it was clear that the USA was the only one that the terrorists would be directing their assault against.

How exactly were we going to get support from Europe and the Middle East when they found themselves hating the USA more than the lawless terror cells in the Middle East?

The USA went alone (with support from some other governments not their people) against Al Qaeda and those who harbor them because the rest of the world didn't care to. Not because we are evil.

[cuervo72]

Because I know if Americans vote for a better President aka John Kerry, the Canadian leadership and European leadership will look to the US as its friendly superpower again. Bush has completely screwed up in trying to smooth over any kind of relations with the outside world.

So, in short, I don't care what Canadians think because I already know what they think, I hate Bush too.

Well, isn't that probably part of the issue? Canada, Europe and other countries that hold more socialistic views are always going to think that a Democratic president is a better president. So having one in office is more often than not going to make them happier right off the bat.

[Tzar007]

Everything I read from and about Fox News shows what a bunch of morons they are. Do they get paid to be stupid and ignorant and full of crap? How can anyone with half a brain take them seriously?

There is no Labor Party in the Canadian Parliament, ruling Party or otherwise. And if there was, it wouldn't be called the Labor Party, it would be called the Labour party.

They can't even get the basic facts of how the government is structured, so how can they get anything right?

It is stories like these that give the USA a bad name in Canada (if indeed it does have a bad name). I certainly wouldn't know because this story is crap and has no credibility.

100% true. It is the Liberal Party, not the Labor or Labour party. But as you say, this is Fox...

[Dutch]

The only nice thing about having a Democrat in office is that the Socialistic Demonstration organizers will go back to Europe where they belong. :)

[Sharpieman]

To be fair, the rest of the world cared when Iraq invaded Kuwait because their oil prices were going up. That's why it was so "easy" to get world support.

After the World Trade Center blew up and the Europeans continued to protest America and the European and Middle Eastern media praised terrorists that fought America, it was clear that the USA was the only one that the terrorists would be directing their assault against.

How exactly were we going to get support from Europe and the Middle East when they found themselves hating the USA more than the lawless terror cells in the Middle East?

The USA went alone (with support from some other governments not their people) against Al Qaeda and those who harbor them because the rest of the world didn't care to. Not because we are evil.

I don't think America is evil either, but Bush didn't do a good job of getting international support in the first place. He doesn't really have a regard for the world as a whole, his actions have shown that he cares MUCH MORE about the needs and wants of America then putting those needs and wants into perspective and trying to work towards a greater good.

[Dutch]

That's BS, though.

He (President Bush) went to the United Nations to get support and the French powers that be, told the newspapers that FRANCE would veto anything that supported the removal of Saddam Hussein from power.

[Sharpieman]

Maybe the Europeans new what was coming if they supported the removal of Saddam. A unnecessary war

[Tzar007]

That's BS, though.

He (President Bush) went to the United Nations to get support and the French powers that be, told the newspapers that FRANCE would veto anything that supported the removal of Saddam Hussein from power.

The truth is more complex. Bush indeed came to the UN, but in fact we now all know that the White House had already made its mind about the invasion. So Bush only wanted to have approval for a military intervention against Iraq. He basically wanted the UN to simply act as a rubber-stamp, and the other nations in the Security Council certainly did feel that and recoiled.

Now, Bush can be much more inclined to international cooperation when it meets his interests. For example, he has made quite a good and honest effort in the recent weeks and months at rallying other nations to help the US in rebuilding Iraq (beacause the realization is dawning on him that the US won’t be able to do this alone). At the Sea Island G8 Summit a month ago, he was all smiles and praise for his allies friends...The problem is that he just didn’t care that much about them when it was time to invade Iraq. Well, guess what, you can’t play ball like this. You want your allies to give you a hand in tough times, then you gonna have to listen to them also and make compromises at other times.

[rkmsuf]

this thread is starting to need more cowbell

[cthomer5000]

what this thread really needs is a prior thread on the exact same thing.

[Dutch]

So you are suggesting that the USA must not always act in it's own interest, but the UN (France, Russia) and other opponents like Germany are allowed to act in their own interests by not wanting to help the USA?

[Ksyrup]

this thread is starting to need more cowbell
You're killing me, you know that, right?

[duckman]

So you are suggesting that the USA must not always act in it's own interest, but the UN (France, Russia) and other opponents like Germany are allowed to act in their own interests by not wanting to help the USA?Also, France, Russia, and Germany didn't want to go to war because they have invested in the country. If Saddam lost power then they maybe be forgiven for any past debts. Amazing how that changes everything I see about the war. They didn't want to go to war because they would lose money that was owed to them.

[rkmsuf]

You're killing me, you know that, right?

Sorry I forget you were already full of cowbell.

How about

This thread is starting to need more Dennis Green

[cody8200]

I really could care less what Canada or any other country in the world thinks of America. I'm sure I speak for at least million's Americans. They think they have to care about us, being the only superpower left, but we do not have to care about them. I go to Europe and Canada and all I hear about is American poltitics...its hilarious. Look at our newspapers, besides Iraq, how much do we hear about French policies or Canadian ones? Not very often...and quite frankly its a good thing. Maybe if these countries would worry about themselves more than they worry about us (who they should not really worry about at all...After all we have always saved France's ass in the past and we have attacked Canada), then maybe they could build up their countries enough for us to care about them on a world scale. I saw France may be going to a 40 hour work week with fewer vacations....hmmmm, didn't America do that 100 years ago starting with Henry Ford? And they wonder why they are talking about us instead of us talking about them.

[Maple Leafs]

Yeah... you would have thought...
But apparently, you'd be wrong...

[Dutch]

Could somebody show me an example of how Canada cares about the USA?

I didn't think so.

[Buddy Grant]

Most Canadians will never forget how the US saved their asses in the double-u double-u two. If not for FDR & Harry S. we'd have Poutin made with Greater Co-posperity Sphere fries and sauerkraut.

[Karim]

You would have thought we'd have had a thread about this already...
Classic.

[Karim]

Could somebody show me an example of how Canada cares about the USA?

I didn't think so.
80% of our foreign trade is with the US. We have more than a passing interest in American policies.

Our goverment will never admit it, but we would also heavily rely on the US for protection if our territorial integrity was threatened. Of course, we're so nice and friendly, no one would ever do that. :rolleyes:

[WSUCougar]

I think they're just still pissed because we invaded them twice.

Oh my god, it's like deja vu all over again.

[duckman]

Blame Canada! Blame Canada!

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Most Canadians will never forget how the US saved their asses in the double-u double-u two. If not for FDR & Harry S. we'd have Poutin made with Greater Co-posperity Sphere fries and sauerkraut.

You might want to check your history books. You have overestimated the contribution of the U.S. to World War II, underestimated the contribution of Canada to World War II, and wrongly assumed Canada was or even needed saving. Fairly typical.

[Blade]

Well, what I think is...

...screw it, this could get out of hand in a hurry...

Can't we all just be friends?

:D

[Schmidty]

Northwest Washington is Hell. Apparantly, everyone here is a genius, everyone who disagrees with these noble savants is evil, and fish and chips is considered a delicacy.

Please help me.

[Honolulu_Blue]

But apparently, you'd be wrong...

Strange that, because I'm usually right...

[KeyserSoze]

To be fair, the rest of the world cared when Iraq invaded Kuwait because their oil prices were going up. That's why it was so "easy" to get world support.

After the World Trade Center blew up and the Europeans continued to protest America and the European and Middle Eastern media praised terrorists that fought America, it was clear that the USA was the only one that the terrorists would be directing their assault against.

How exactly were we going to get support from Europe and the Middle East when they found themselves hating the USA more than the lawless terror cells in the Middle East?

The USA went alone (with support from some other governments not their people) against Al Qaeda and those who harbor them because the rest of the world didn't care to. Not because we are evil.

I think there is a few point inacurates.

There are other terrorists beside Al Qaeda. In Spain we have ETA. IRA in UK, there are in Indonesia and Philipinnes. Even in France there are, but they are small cels. I dont know how many American have been killed by ETA, but sure there are less than the Spaniards killed by Al Qaeda.

I dont know any representative group or media group that have praised the terrorist attacks, at least in Spain. If you can give me any source, please, attach it.

I think there have been more protest against USA in Irak that in Afganisthan. The link between Al Qaeda and the Talibans was direct, but I feel I´ve no evidendence that the Sadam goverment has a link with the 11-S. Also feel free to give me any strong evidence against these thought.

[KeyserSoze]

I really could care less what Canada or any other country in the world thinks of America. I'm sure I speak for at least million's Americans. They think they have to care about us, being the only superpower left, but we do not have to care about them. I go to Europe and Canada and all I hear about is American poltitics...its hilarious. Look at our newspapers, besides Iraq, how much do we hear about French policies or Canadian ones? Not very often...and quite frankly its a good thing. Maybe if these countries would worry about themselves more than they worry about us (who they should not really worry about at all...After all we have always saved France's ass in the past and we have attacked Canada), then maybe they could build up their countries enough for us to care about them on a world scale. I saw France may be going to a 40 hour work week with fewer vacations....hmmmm, didn't America do that 100 years ago starting with Henry Ford? And they wonder why they are talking about us instead of us talking about them.

The french also saved USA ass at least once, I think...
The french people is asking to work MORE, no less. They have actually a 35 hour work week. I dont think any american in 1900 dreamed about this. The level of social sanity and public "pensions" (sorry I dont remember the word in english, but it´s the payment after you have retired) is higher than US (althought it is given some headache to te French goverment).

The level of development in the central-north Europe could be a bit less than in the US, but not much. Here in the PIGS (the southern countries of Europe) are some more underdevelopment. But there are some social diferences between the economic model of US and European models.

And I wonder why the h*ll I´m defending the frenchies, since the spaniards we hate them! :D :D

[Mota]

The USA went alone (with support from some other governments not their people) against Al Qaeda and those who harbor them because the rest of the world didn't care to. Not because we are evil.

I think that's because the US Gov determined that terrorism = Iraq and most other countries disagreed.

[Joe Canadian]

Most Canadians will never forget how the US saved their asses in the double-u double-u two. If not for FDR & Harry S. we'd have Poutin made with Greater Co-posperity Sphere fries and sauerkraut.

I'm assuming "double-u double-u two" is some strange event in history that no one has ever heard of, because it certainly can't be WWII... because as someone stated above nothing like that happened.

But I guess you're one of those people that think because of the the United States winning the war by themselves, at least in their opinion, that the rest of the world, France especially, should be in the US's debt FOREVER. And because of this not form an opinion on anything, and never disagree with the US Administration.

[Fritz]

I'm assuming "double-u double-u two" is some strange event in history that no one has ever heard of, because it certainly can't be WWII... because as someone stated above nothing like that happened.

But I guess you're one of those people that think because of the the United States winning the war by themselves, at least in their opinion, that the rest of the world, France especially, should be in the US's debt FOREVER. And because of this not form an opinion on anything, and never disagree with the US Administration.

did you miss his use of the word we?

psssssst Buddy is Canadian too.

[Joe Canadian]

did you miss his use of the word we?

psssssst Buddy is Canadian too.

Oh well... I guess I've opened myself up to some stupid, immature Canadian jokes... Wo0t!!!!!!!!!

My comments stand because I'm sure someone who's posted in this thread thinks that way.

[CraigSca]

The french also saved USA ass at least once, I think...
The french people is asking to work MORE, no less. They have actually a 35 hour work week. I dont think any american in 1900 dreamed about this.

And I wonder why the h*ll I´m defending the frenchies, since the spaniards we hate them! :D :D

True, the French saved the United States butt during the Revolutionary War.

Regarding the 35 hour work week - Aren't they doing this out of necessity to lower the unemployment rate (which, when compared to the US is still astronomically high)? I remember reading an article recently where this whole 35 hour work week "won" by the labor contingent was actually an unmitigated disaster.

[CraigSca]

dola

Oh, and I won't even mention what happens in France when the temperature rises about 85 degrees despite all the wonderful social programs and pensions.

[WussGawd]

This is not shocking. I suspect, if surveyed, in light of our illegal war in Iraq, that you would probably find similar or worse patterns in a lot of other countries.

[KeyserSoze]

True, the French saved the United States butt during the Revolutionary War.

Regarding the 35 hour work week - Aren't they doing this out of necessity to lower the unemployment rate (which, when compared to the US is still astronomically high)? I remember reading an article recently where this whole 35 hour work week "won" by the labor contingent was actually an unmitigated disaster.

Absolutely


Craig Sca, I think your post has some true but it is a bit unfair. These temperatures are so strange in France that in the most of hospitals and homes havent a system of cooling. These was a catastrophe, so I dont think you can blame a country to not be ready to the unexpected....

[Fritz]

My initial post in this thread was not driven some overwhelming malice towards Canada. But the fact is Canada has a policy of allowing the US to, in large, act as its primary military option. This allows them to spend very little on defence (1.1% GDP) and channel this money into other programs.

So, I get more than a little miffed when Canadian's get up in arms about how the US chooses to use its military more force or how it choses to conduct foreign policy.

I look at this like a teenager old bitching about the car their parents bought them for their 16th birthday.

[Joe Canadian]

My initial post in this thread was not driven some overwhelming malice towards Canada. But the fact is Canada has a policy of allowing the US to, in large, act as its primary military option. This allows them to spend very little on defence (1.1% GDP) and channel this money into other programs.

So, I get more than a little miffed when Canadian's get up in arms about how the US chooses to use its military more force or how it choses to conduct foreign policy.

I look at this like a teenager old bitching about the car their parents bought them for their 16th birthday.

Reliance works both ways, obviously not as much as we rely on the US military, but it still works both ways.

But again... you can be "miffed" all you freakin' want. We (as Canadians) generally don't like the current Administration's idea of foreign policy, we have the right to that opinion... and we aren't going to stop having it, nor are other countries, because we have in the past or present beniftied from the US.

If the US President can stick his nose in Canadian affairs (gay marraige, and drug laws) surly little ol' Joe Canadian (the general population, not me) can stick his nose in US policy... right?

[cuervo72]

Reliance works both ways, obviously not as much as we rely on the US military, but it still works both ways.

But again... you can be "miffed" all you freakin' want. We (as Canadians) generally don't like the current Administration's idea of foreign policy, we have the right to that opinion... and we aren't going to stop having it, nor are other countries, because we have in the past or present beniftied from the US.

If the US President can stick his nose in Canadian affairs (gay marraige, and drug laws) surly little ol' Joe Canadian (the general population, not me) can stick his nose in US policy... right?

Sticking one's nose in/having an opinion of policy and thinking a country is evil are two separate things, no?

[JAG]

There are other terrorists beside Al Qaeda. In Spain we have ETA. IRA in UK, there are in Indonesia and Philipinnes. Even in France there are, but they are small cels. I dont know how many American have been killed by ETA, but sure there are less than the Spaniards killed by Al Qaeda.

I think there have been more protest against USA in Irak that in Afganisthan. The link between Al Qaeda and the Talibans was direct, but I feel I´ve no evidendence that the Sadam goverment has a link with the 11-S.

I know where you're coming from KS, as I've had that discussion with others before, but the difference between Al Qaeda and the other terrorist groups you mention is that they are far more widespread than the ones you mentioned. It might be a stretch for Saudi Arabia or Thailand to care about the IRA, but Al Qaeda has committed terrorist acts in the US, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Indonesia, and other countries, so the world should have a clear united interest in ridding themselves of Al Qaeda.

The second paragraph I quoted is right on the mark. Whether some want to admit it or not, no matter how things turn out there, Bush made a mistake invading Iraq because he turned the cause from The World vs. The Terrorists to The US vs. one of its enemies.

[Joe Canadian]

Sticking one's nose in/having an opinion of policy and thinking a country is evil are two separate things, no?

Totally agree... but the whole "teenagers think the US are evil" is an over generalization that tends to occur (not always) with youth. But people's problem with this topic, IMO, has more to do with people's anti-US foreign policy attitudes and not teenagers thinking the US is evil.

If somone posted an article saying 50% of Canadians think Bush's foreign policy is dangerous, and wrong I'd expect similar responces to what this article has gotten.

[WSUCougar]

I say the following remark without malice or any desire to stir things up:

Sometimes I wish all those people in the world who hate and despise the United States and its role in the world would get their wish, and we'd let them all fend for themselves.

[Joe Canadian]

I say the following remark without malice or any desire to stir things up:

Sometimes I wish all those people in the world who hate and despise the United States and its role in the world would get their wish, and we'd let them all fend for themselves.

I betcha those 40% of Canadian TEENAGERS would be scared!

[JAG]

I say the following remark without malice or any desire to stir things up:

Sometimes I wish all those people in the world who hate and despise the United States and its role in the world would get their wish, and we'd let them all fend for themselves.

That'd be one scary world.

[Radii]

Bush made a mistake invading Iraq because he turned the cause from The World vs. The Terrorists to The US vs. one of its enemies.

This is the single best comment I have ever read in a political thread at FOFC.

I watched the ESPN Headlines show last night on 9/11. I had forgotten how much I respected Bush right after 9/11, for how he handled himself, and how he was a clear, forceful, calming voice for the country. I remember the unity when we learned that Osama Bin Laden was behind the attacks, and that he was being harbored by the Taliban, and how you would not find a soul who said that we shoudln't go after this guy, and how rare it was to find someone who opposed military action in Afghanastan.

Amazing how we took an event that could have unified the entire world against this terror threat and turned it into "us against the world, you're with us or you're against us" as if we are the only country to ever experience a terror attack, and turned much of the world against us.

Even more amazing is how many Americans recognize that we've done this, agree that we've done this, and don't care or think it was the right thing to do.

[Joe Canadian]

This is the single best comment I have ever read in a political thread at FOFC.

I watched the ESPN Headlines show last night on 9/11. I had forgotten how much I respected Bush right after 9/11, for how he handled himself, and how he was a clear, forceful, calming voice for the country. I remember the unity when we learned that Osama Bin Laden was behind the attacks, and that he was being harbored by the Taliban, and how you would not find a soul who said that we shoudln't go after this guy, and how rare it was to find someone who opposed military action in Afghanastan.

Amazing how we took an event that could have unified the entire world against this terror threat and turned it into "us against the world, you're with us or you're against us" as if we are the only country to ever experience a terror attack, and turned much of the world against us.

Even more amazing is how many Americans recognize that we've done this, agree that we've done this, and don't care or think it was the right thing to do.

Exactly... people tend to forget that after 9/11 the entire world felt like they were Americans, and felt for the entire country. We did everything we could to help... in St. John's we cancelled the Toronto Maple Leafs training camp to use the arena as a "hotel" for stranded passengers... some of us (my family included) even took people into their own homes.

At that point almost every country was of the attitude, "Bush you are our leader, we will follow you anywhere." Boy did he find one hell of a way to screw that up...

[WSUCougar]

Part of that sense that you’re referring to I think comes from the fact that Saddam was an obvious villain. He’d used WMDs before, he was militarily aggressive, he publicly hated the U.S., and he funded terrorism. A lot of Americans wanted him to fit the mold of the Taliban and bin Laden in the wake of 9/11. But then a lot of other nations got nervous and began to question U.S. intentions.

Where I see Bush making the critical mistake is trying to justify to the world why we were moving against Iraq. The whole WMD thing became a false echo, with world and American public opinion hinging on whether we dug up some damn chemicals from an obscure pit buried in the desert. To me it should never have been a question of whether Saddam had the things or not. Based on the post-9/11 rhetoric by the President, the point should have been that Saddam would use them or provide them to terrorists. Is Iraq a supporter of terrorism or not?

[Buddy Grant]

My initial post in this thread was not driven some overwhelming malice towards Canada. But the fact is Canada has a policy of allowing the US to, in large, act as its primary military option. This allows them to spend very little on defence (1.1% GDP) and channel this money into other programs.

So, I get more than a little miffed when Canadian's get up in arms about how the US chooses to use its military more force or how it choses to conduct foreign policy.

I look at this like a teenager old bitching about the car their parents bought them for their 16th birthday.
The sweeping generalization in your initial post did sound like a teenager speaking, I'll grant you that, but since the current US administrations ham fisted military decisions have actually made the world *less* safe for everyone (Canadians included), I'd say that outsiders have good reason to protest, regardless of their military budget. The US should cut back it's military spending in half and spend the saved half on alternate sources of energy so they won't have such a huge stake in the middle east. A large portion of their terrorism fears will die out when their need for the ME oil subsides, and besides, million dollar bombs aren't the best weapon for knocking out a terrorist cell.

[Sun Tzu]

I miss John Candy :(

[Franklinnoble]

Those aren't pillows!

[pennywisesb]

Also, France, Russia, and Germany didn't want to go to war because they have invested in the country. If Saddam lost power then they maybe be forgiven for any past debts. Amazing how that changes everything I see about the war. They didn't want to go to war because they would lose money that was owed to them.
Great point. Everyone is giving the Europeans the benefit of the doubt on not going to war, but in reality, there were other issues affecting their decisions. Sure, let Sadaam murder, steal, and pillage his people as long as there is a chance we'll get paid back for our investments.....

[bhlloy]

Great point. Everyone is giving the Europeans the benefit of the doubt on not going to war, but in reality, there were other issues affecting their decisions. Sure, let Sadaam murder, steal, and pillage his people as long as there is a chance we'll get paid back for our investments.....

I'm sure American foreign policy doesn't ever operate on the same sort of lines. International relations is a horribly murky and hypocritical business and at the end of the day any given government is going to look out for it's own best interests.

Most people over here in Britain are 110% behind the removal of Saddam but don't like being lied to. Had Bush and Blair been honest and said that their aim was to arrest a dictator and bring down an evil regime I don't think there would be much of a problem now. But the trumped up WMD charges stick in most people's throats.

[Glengoyne]

I am amused at the rhetoric some of you use when talking about the war in Iraq.

"this illegal war in Iraq"--- Will you still call it that when Kerry is president, and carrying the fight to the same elements in Iraq?

[JonInMiddleGA]

"this illegal war in Iraq"--- Will you still call it that when Kerry is president, and carrying the fight to the same elements in Iraq?

I presume that's meant as a rhetorical question -- there's no way Kerry & a Dem administration would ever harm those poor misunderstood victims of U.S. imperialism : :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Everyone is giving the Europeans the benefit of the doubt on not going to war, but in reality, there were other issues affecting their decisions.

Not quite everyone. ;)

[WussGawd]

I think that's because the US Gov determined that terrorism = Iraq and most other countries disagreed.

And as the 9/11 commission pointed out, most other countries were right.

[Glengoyne]

And as the 9/11 commission pointed out, most other countries were right.
Actually I think the 9/11 commission and Pre war Intelligence investigations pointed out that most nations were actually wrong in their assessment of Iraq. Just about everyone believed they had them, and that they had failed to comply to the requirements set out by the U.N..

I don't think France and Germany opposed the war because they thought the intelligence services of the world were wrong, nor out of an overwhelming desire for peace. I think they acted out of either selfish motives related to economic ties to Saddam's Iraq, and/or to flex their muscle and attempt to diminish the stature of the United States in relation to the rest of the world.

Also I find it curious that everyone says that President Bush "lied" about wmd. President Clinton, President Bush, and numerous senators over numerous years are on the record decrying Saddam Hussein and his Weapons of Mass destruction. If Bush "lied" to and deceived all those senators by coercing intelligence analysts to come to certain conclusions, then I suppose the Clinton Administration was doing the same thing. After all the senators were saying he had wmd back in '98. So think about it.....our intelligence analysts were pressured to come to the same results by two different administrations. Does that make sense? Not to me. So hey...Maybe those intelligence guys just had it wrong.... That makes more sense to me.

[duckman]

Actually I think the 9/11 commission and Pre war Intelligence investigations pointed out that most nations were actually wrong in their assessment of Iraq. Just about everyone believed they had them, and that they had failed to comply to the requirements set out by the U.N..

I don't think France and Germany opposed the war because they thought the intelligence services of the world were wrong, nor out of an overwhelming desire for peace. I think they acted out of either selfish motives related to economic ties to Saddam's Iraq, and/or to flex their muscle and attempt to diminish the stature of the United States in relation to the rest of the world.

Also I find it curious that everyone says that President Bush "lied" about wmd. President Clinton, President Bush, and numerous senators over numerous years are on the record decrying Saddam Hussein and his Weapons of Mass destruction. If Bush "lied" to and deceived all those senators by coercing intelligence analysts to come to certain conclusions, then I suppose the Clinton Administration was doing the same thing. After all the senators were saying he had wmd back in '98. So think about it.....our intelligence analysts were pressured to come to the same results by two different administrations. Does that make sense? Not to me. So hey...Maybe those intelligence guys just had it wrong.... That makes more sense to me.
To add to what you are saying, the 9/11 commission did an admiral job of not blaming one Presidency over the other, but collectively blamed all the factors that led to the tragedy. This should never be used as a partisan rhetoric. Everything was to blame for the intelligence breakdown as it should have been.

[Dutch]

Most people over here in Britain are 110% behind the removal of Saddam but don't like being lied to. Had Bush and Blair been honest and said that their aim was to arrest a dictator and bring down an evil regime I don't think there would be much of a problem now. But the trumped up WMD charges stick in most people's throats.

So do you want us to put him back then?

[bhlloy]

Show me how you can possibly come to that conclusion from my post. Stop being such a dick about it because last I checked a) proportionally to the size of the country Britain has had a similar number of solidiers killed in Iraq, b) we have been with you every single step of the way and c) people were just as happy and willing to get rid of Saddam as you guys were in the US.

Tell me something, does it make you warm and fuzzy inside when your leaders lie to you? I'm not arguing against the result, just saying there definitely could have been a better way for them to achieve it.

[NoMyths]

Well said, bhlloy.

[Fritz]

I wish one thread could be posted here about anything remotely political or international that did not turn into the same old iraq thread. My gut feeling says to whipe this whole monster off the face of the earth, but then I know how crushed that would leave some people.

some of you suck

[Glengoyne]

...Stop being such a dick about it because last I checked a) proportionally to the size of the country Britain has had a similar number of solidiers killed in Iraq, b) we have been with you every single step of the way and c) people were just as happy and willing to get rid of Saddam as you guys were in the US.

Tell me something, does it make you warm and fuzzy inside when your leaders lie to you? I'm not arguing against the result, just saying there definitely could have been a better way for them to achieve it.
Regarding the warm fuzzy. I still think it is pretty much a stretch to call what Bush and Blair did lying. I think they honestly believed what they were saying.

Regarding A and B)...We Americans are very grateful to Tony Blair for this. I think most of us don't think the people of Britain get much credit for that. My impression based on poll numbers and the like, is that Tony Blair stood with the U.S. against the will of the British people. So honestly, based on that feeling, I have trouble buying into your C, that is simply not how it appeared or at least was portrayed over here.

[Cuckoo]

Well said, Glengoyne.



Don't mind me. I'm only a back-patter.

[Super Ugly]

I know that your opinion is always going to be shaped by what you read and see on the TV, but last time I checked we weren't a homogenised blub of humanity this side of the Atlantic. A lot of people here actually supported the war.

[bhlloy]

I can't find any definitive poll data, but in a poll by the Mirror 42% of British people were against the war beforehand under any circumstances.

Might sound a bit high but the Mirror staked their reputation as standing against Blair on the war in Iraq and the stuff they were putting out at the time was nothing short of propaganda. (As seen later - this desperate stand cost the editor his job)

So... I reckon that figure is very questionable and I'd look for an impartial figure to be around 20-25% against the war at all costs. Which I'm sure is not that much different to the figure in the US.

If anyone can find definitive data I'd be very interested to see it.

Super Ugly is right, there was a LOT of support for the war beforehand. The left-wing element is much more vocal over here but I think support levels would probably have been in line with the US figures. Now the opinion is that Blair lied and the British public generally won't stand for that.