OT - Keeper systems for fantasy football

[QuikSand]

I'm in a fantasy football league that has struggled to come up with workable keeper systems. We don't want to depart from the draft-based system (and go to something like an auction, which would presumably solve the conundrum) -- and we're stuck a bit on how to set this up.

What we do not want to have is a system where every team just gets carte blanche to keep a list of X players -- and everyone just keeps their very best players year after year. I, and others, have played in such leagues -- and it's my opinion (and that of many league members) that this system just stinks.

Instead, we're looking for something that promotes "value" and "sleepers" in some fashion. We have toyed with various ideas based on the round of the player's initial selection (i.e. you lose the pick from the previous round the following year if you keep him, ad infinitum) ... but so far haven't found anything that seems particularly workable.


I'm wondering if anyone has experience in a limited keeper league, using a draft, who can share some observations. It's still probably a longshot to get something adopted in my league... but I'm trying again.

[rkmsuf]

Simplicity is probably key here. Perhaps pick a round of the draft and assign it as a keeper round. Anyone selected in that round can be kept for a maximum of 3 seasons and you can only have one keeper at any one time. Or you could tinker with the amounts if you wanted more keepers.

[QuikSand]

So far, the proposals that have come closest to passing have been super-simple ones like that... which I find second-best to a more overall, organized system. But we may ebd up with a couple of "keeper rounds" instead.

[Fritz]

Quik - consider picking your keepers before the season. so: pick keepers for 2005/2004 season/release all non keepers into 2005 pool/draft 2005 teams/pick 2006 keepers/2005 season

[rkmsuf]

So far, the proposals that have come closest to passing have been super-simple ones like that... which I find second-best to a more overall, organized system. But we may ebd up with a couple of "keeper rounds" instead.

Outside of assigning draft values to players and instituting bidding points for free agents, it's the only redraft method that makes any sense.

[Logan]

My league finally agreed on its rules for keepers. After much debate, we have decided that you can keep one player that you have drafted in rounds 2-5, and 2 players that you drafted past that. If you keep a player that you traded for, you use the round that the previous owner drafted him in (this was a huge problem, as the argument could be made: why would I trade my 6th and 7th rounder for your 5th rounder, if it means I have no shot of keeping him, unless I want to lose my 2nd-5th rounder which I drafted, etc).

We decided on one year max (after this one) for now, just so we aren't locked into the league if we don't like the way its working out.

[Maple Leafs]

Assume your draft is 16 rounds.

Each players get a point value based on which round they're drafted in. First round picks are worth 16 points, last round picks are one point. Waiver wire pickups count for something in the middle, maybe 10.

At the end of the year, you get to keep 30 points worth of players. So you can keep your first and third round pick (16+14) or maybe your fourth, sixth, 14th, 15th and 16th (13+11+3+2+1). Each player who is kept has five points added to his value for next year, so in theory you could keep the same guy year after year but at escalating cost.

Never tried it, but we're considering something like this for our league this season.

[Chas in Cinti]

I like a system where you can freeze a player at his Draft Round -3 for each successive season.

So, if you got lucky and picked a rookie RB in round 5 that turned out to be a stud, you could keep him the next year as your 2nd round pick. Or, if you took a backup QB for a high scoring team (Kurt Warner in the past) in the 9th Round, you could conceivable keep him for two successive years (as a 6th round pick, then a 3rd round pick).

This frees up the marquee players every year since you can not keep anyone drafted in the first 3 rounds, etc. Also it makes it rare you would have any player kept out of circulation for more than 2 years.

Just a thought, YMMV...

Regards,
Chas

[Logan]

That is the system I wanted to use, but it got voted down.

[sachmo71]

In the FOFC Keeper, you can keep all of your players if you want. You just won't get to draft the next year. Here is the rule:

Dropping Players
At a determined date prior to the season starting and prior to the draft, each team has the option to drop up to (8) players, allowing them to draft players during that year’s draft. Each player retained on the team greater than (8) forfeits that teams draft selection each round. [NOTE: teams with a DL player MUST drop 1 player, and it does not count towards the 8 maximum to drop] – A team dropping players after this determined drop time will not increase the draft rounds for that team. All players marked as dropped at this time will be eligible to be drafted. The draft positions determined after the drop are considered ‘players’, and can be traded as such.


This worked well in my offline keeper. I think it will work well here, also.

[Silver Owl]

In my keeper league, each team picks 3 keepers and then 1 round of drafting then another keeper and then another round of drafting and then another keeper so on.
This has worked out good for us, we have had 6 different teams playing for the championship each of the last three seasons.

[Sporkimata]

In my league we just found that you can keep three players. Any three. That leaves some fun in the draft, but you have to be savy to pick up some talent in the later rounds. We used to do 5 keepers, but it made the draft pretty boring.

[Samdari]

In my league we just found that you can keep three players. Any three. That leaves some fun in the draft, but you have to be savy to pick up some talent in the later rounds. We used to do 5 keepers, but it made the draft pretty boring.

I am commish of a league that just started last year, and the masses clamored for some sort of keeper system. I happen to think that fresh drafts every year make the drafts much more exciting (with much more meaningful picks in the first two rounds). Do you really find this that exciting, with essentially the top 30 players gone before the draft? Out of curiousity, what does your most recent (i.e. last year's if this year's is pending) first round look like?

What we said last season would be done for this season is that we allow each team to keep one player drafted in round 3 or later. I think this could easily move to the '3 rounds up' rule for next year (although I think two rounds is more realistic most of the time. I am trying to get to a system where the top talent is still mostly there in the first round, but there is still quite a bonus for making really good late round picks. I am envisioning something like this: Each owner can 'keep' up to two players, but they must use their draft pick two rounds earlier than the previous year to acquire each player. We draft 16 rounds, so I think that the lowest round to be used on a kept player would be somewhere 10-12, to prevent really late picks and previously undrafted players (call it the Domanick Davis rule) from being kept too cheaply.

[sachmo71]

Our draft is fun, but it definately lacks some of the pizzaz of a redraft league. :(

[Samdari]

Did a lawyer write that rule, sachmo? It makes my head hurt.

[QuikSand]

Each player retained on the team greater than (8) forfeits that teams draft selection each round.

What does this mean? If you keep a 9th player, what do you give up? A draft pick, I presume - but what pick? Your last? Your first?

(If I read the rules of your fledgling league here, it sounds like it's the first pick -- which makes almost no sense to me)

[sachmo71]

What does this mean? If you keep a 9th player, what do you give up? A draft pick, I presume - but what pick? Your last? Your first?

(If I read the rules of your fledgling league here, it sounds like it's the first pick -- which makes almost no sense to me)

Yes, it starts at the first round and goes up. And no, the rule was written by a QA Analysist, which can be worse than a lawyer sometimes. :)

So if I keep 9 players, I will draft in round 2.
10=round 3
11=round 4
12=round 5


etc...

[QuikSand]

So, it sounds to me like the natural result is that you havemost people keeping exactly 8 players, and a few (who won't get their chance with the top rookies anyway) probably keep plenty more. But why bother keeping nine? The price of each keeper goes down and down once you commit to keeping more than the minimum. Perverse set of incentives, I'd say.

[sachmo71]

So, it sounds to me like the natural result is that you havemost people keeping exactly 8 players, and a few (who won't get their chance with the top rookies anyway) probably keep plenty more. But why bother keeping nine? The price of each keeper goes down and down once you commit to keeping more than the minimum. Perverse set of incentives, I'd say.

Whatever his occupation, I'd say the rule was written by a half-wit.

Is that really necessary to call my friend a half-wit? You can make your point without being an asshole, I believe.

It works in real life. In fact, it's worked for five years.

[sachmo71]

Apparently, I can't.

But edited, nonetheless.

I appreciate that.

Now, are you even interested in hearing how the system we use actually works, or have you written it off completely?

[lynchjm24]

We have one keeper and you lose the round pick that you selected said player. We are keeping Torry Holt and we took him in the third round - so we are punting our 3rd round pick for him.

[QuikSand]

Now, are you even interested in hearing how the system we use actually works, or have you written it off completely?

Sure... why not? It's well beyond anything my league might consider (we're looking at only a couple of keepers, not eight and up) -- but I'm intrigued, as I presume my initial impression is misplaced.

[sachmo71]

Sure... why not? It's well beyond anything my league might consider (we're looking at only a couple of keepers, not eight and up) -- but I'm intrigued, as I presume my initial impression is misplaced.

I'll let you be the judge, and also I'd be interested to see if there is a major flaw in this system. Just because it has worked in my old keeper league doesn't mean that there aren't some holes in it, and since we are going to use it in the new keeper league that's started, if there is a problem with it there is still time to change it.

BTW, this system was actually a rule change. The original rule was that everyone had to drop 8 players, and more if they wanted, but that way everyone would have to draft at least 8. We wanted to be able to keep more, so we voted this rule in.

Here are the teams from last year. I'll list them in draft order, so the last place team will be listed first, etc. The number following the player is the current cheat sheet value for the player.


Dave's Not Here
T Maddox - 217
D McNabb - 303
C Garner - 162
E George - 58
G Hearst - 115
K Barlow - 236
E Kennison - 119
D Bennett - 90
J Rice - 80
R Wayne - 111
D' Stallworth - 117
D Driver - 96
M Pollard - 60
D Bills - 96
D Ravens - 150
J Reed - 108

Manipulator
Q Carter - 161
D Bledsoe - 217
R Williams - 240
D Staley - 179
T Barber - 201
H Ward - 173
T Glenn - 97
R Smith - 144
A Toomer - 137
E Moulds - 147
E Conwell - 25
A Crumpler - 79
D Packers - 129
D Titans - 124
M Andersen - 128
P Edinger - 104

Frontal Assault
P Manning - 326
E James - 251
M Pittman - 58
C Dillon - 202
R Johnson - 188
I Hilliard - 91
K McCardell - 112
D Hall - 51
D Northcutt - 90
P Price - 133
T Streets - 57
J Jurevicius - 37
T Heap - 109
D Chiefs - 135
D Buccaneers - 144
M Vanderjagt - 164

The Avengers
K Collins - 46
T Rattay - 197
J Garcia - 275
J Bettis - 88
C Martin - 196
T.J. Duckett - 126
S Alexander - 255
R Moss - 232
J Smith - 132
T Brown - 40
J Thrash - 35
S Sharpe - 0
D Vikings - 130
D 49ers - 103
A Vinatieri - 145
R Longwell - 128

NewCastle
T Brady - 275
J Kitna - 22
L Tomlinson - 315
B Westbrook - 172
A Harris - 16
A Thomas - 78
R Gardner - 105
P Burress - 122
S Smith - 166
P Warrick - 110
D Branch - 109
D Clark - 64
D Patriots - 160
D Dolphins - 140
J Carney - 127
M Stover - 135

Beat This
M Bulger - 294
B Favre - 261
J Plummer - 254
M Bennett - 182
M Faulk - 165
T Henry - 211
J Lewis - 249
A-Zahir Hakim - 32
J Morton - 99
J Horn - 147
K Robinson - 154
T Taylor - 85
J Walker - 131
R McMichael - 64
D Cowboys - 118
G Anderson - 0


Yoshimitsu Crew
D Flutie - 0
D Culpepper - 365
M Hasselbeck - 303
M Williams - 81
A Green - 268
T Holt - 207
S Moss - 161
B Engram - 73
M Muhammad - 114
J Galloway - 116
M Harrison - 217
I Mili - 45
J Witten - 61
D Rams - 145
D Eagles - 138
S Janikowski - 124

Grid Iron Girlie
B Johnson - 238
J Blake - 0
D McAllister - 294
T Canidate - 24
D Jackson - 155
C Johnson - 184
D'Wayne Bates - 0
C Chambers - 149
T Owens - 177
K Johnson - 85
J McCareins - 114
J Kleinsasser - 57
D Campbell - 18
D Panthers - 146
J Wilkins - 153
J Kasay - 126

Talkin' Heads
C Pennington - 262
P Ramsey - 16
M Vick - 310
A Brooks - 291
P Holmes - 334
M Shipp - 100
F Taylor - 217
J Jackson - 31
A Boldin - 153
L Coles - 171
I Bruce - 136
B Miller - 54
J Shockey - 91
T Gonzalez - 135
D Steelers - 121
J Hall - 122

North Texas Armadillos
S McNair - 293
T Green - 290
C Portis - 277
W Green - 104
T Hambrick - 36
S Davis - 200
D Foster - 95
D Boston - 124
A Lelie - 125
D Mason - 165
J Porter - 131
A Johnson - 145
F Jones - 62
D Giants - 118
J Elam - 146
J Brown - 132


After removing all players currently on rosters from the ranking, here are the remaining players avaliable for the draft. Note that in the current league, we would add the dropped players to this pool.



QBs

1 Mark Brunell Was/7 253
2 Byron Leftwich Jac/9 239
3 Josh McCown Ari/6 236
4 David Carr Hou/7 228
5 Carson Palmer Cin/5 228
6 Jake Delhomme Car/3 223
7 Joey Harrington Det/4 209
8 Rich Gannon Oak/10 203
9 Rex Grossman Chi/5 197
10 Kyle Boller Bal/6 188
11 Philip Rivers - R SD/10 186
12 AJ Feeley Mia/10 182
13 Kurt Warner NYG/6 122
14 Eli Manning - R NYG/6 90
15 Vinny Testaverde Dal/4 64
16 Jay Fiedler Mia/10 61
17 Kerry Collins Oak/10 46
18 Drew Brees SD/10 41
19 Ken Dorsey SF/7 37
20 Chris Simms TB/8 27
21 Ben Roethlisberger - R Pit/7 25
22 Kordell Stewart Bal/6 21
23 Ty Detmer Atl/9 15
24 Billy Volek Ten/9 15
25 Shaun King Ari/6 15
26 Jonathan Quinn Chi/5 14
27 Drew Henson - R Dal/4 13
28 Mike Quinn Den/10 10
29 Todd Bouman NO/8 10

RBs

1 Domanick Davis Hou/7 188
2 Chris Brown Ten/9 166
3 Julius Jones - R Dal/4 156
4 Kevin Jones - R Det/4 151
5 Thomas Jones Chi/5 149
6 Warrick Dunn Atl/9 132
7 Correll Buckhalter Phi/5 123
8 Steven Jackson - R StL/8 110
9 Tatum Bell - R Den/10 105
10 Lee Suggs Cle/8 105
11 Onterrio Smith Min/4 101
12 Tyrone Wheatley Oak/10 91
13 Mike Alstott TB/8 77
14 Emmitt Smith Ari/6 76
15 Willis McGahee Buf/3 73
16 Richie Anderson Dal/4 71
17 Kevin Faulk NE/3 70
18 Amos Zereoue Oak/10 66
19 Mike Anderson Den/10 61
20 Artose Pinner Det/4 59
21 Greg Jones - R Jac/9 59
22 Lamont Jordan NYJ/3 57
23 Ron Dayne NYG/6 57
24 Quentin Griffin Den/10 56
25 Tony Hollings Hou/7 55
26 Zack Crockett Oak/10 53
27 Najeh Davenport GB/9 53
28 Chris Perry - R Cin/5 50
29 Aveion Cason Dal/4 47
30 Shawn Bryson Det/4 46
31 Tony Fisher GB/9 44
32 Justin Fargas Oak/10 40
33 Derrick Blaylock KC/5 40
34 Jerald Sowell NYJ/3 39
35 Mack Strong Sea/4 39
36 Ladell Betts Was/7 37
37 Maurice Morris Sea/4 36
38 Verron Haynes Pit/7 36
39 Larry Johnson KC/5 36
40 Chester Taylor Bal/6 35
41 Lamar Gordon StL/8 35
42 Cory Schlesinger Det/4 35
43 Dominic Rhodes Ind/6 34
44 Fred Beasley SF/7 33
45 Marc Edwards Jac/9 33
46 Rock Cartwright Was/7 33
47 Kenny Watson Cin/5 33
48 Labrandon Toefield Jac/9 32
49 Josh Scobey Ari/6 31
50 Travis Minor Mia/10 29

WRs

1 Marty Booker Chi/5 135
2 Keyshawn Johnson Dal/4 121
3 Brandon Lloyd SF/7 119
4 Quincy Morgan Cle/8 112
5 Charles Rogers Det/4 101
6 David Givens NE/3 101
7 Andre' Davis Cle/8 93
8 Reggie Williams - R Jac/9 90
9 Robert Ferguson GB/9 89
10 Larry Fitzgerald - R Ari/6 88
11 Roy Williams - R Det/4 87
12 Todd Pinkston Phi/5 84
13 Lee Evans - R Buf/3 83
14 Kevin Dyson SD/10 83
15 Justin Gage Chi/5 82
16 Tyrone Calico Ten/9 81
17 Kelley Washington Cin/5 78
18 Marcus Robinson Min/4 78
19 Rashaun Woods - R SF/7 72
20 Corey Bradford Hou/7 72
21 Josh Reed Buf/3 71
22 Brandon Stokley Ind/6 70
23 Curtis Conway SF/7 70
24 Darnerian McCants Was/7 70
25 Dez White Atl/9 65
26 Bryant Johnson Ari/6 64
27 Antwaan Randle El Pit/7 63
28 Eric Parker SD/10 63
29 Michael Clayton - R TB/8 63
30 Antonio Bryant Dal/4 60
31 Freddie Mitchell Phi/5 54
32 Doug Gabriel Oak/10 53
33 Ricky Proehl Car/3 51
34 Dane Looker StL/8 51
35 Wayne Chrebet NYJ/3 50
36 David Terrell Chi/5 50
37 Nate Burleson Min/4 48
38 Jabar Gaffney Hou/7 47
39 Reche Caldwell SD/10 47
40 Brian Finneran Atl/9 46
41 Michael Jenkins - R Atl/9 43
42 Tim Dwight SD/10 43
43 Jerome Pathon NO/8 43
44 Troy Edwards Jac/9 42
45 Cedrick Wilson SF/7 40
46 Kelly Campbell Min/4 39
47 Kassim Osgood SD/10 39
48 Bethel Johnson NE/3 37
49 Bobby Shaw Buf/3 36
50 Derrius Thompson Mia/10 35

TEs

1 Kellen Winslow - R Cle/8 83
2 Boo Williams NO/8 79
3 Daniel Graham NE/3 71
4 Antonio Gates SD/10 64
5 Desmond Clark Chi/5 62
6 Bubba Franks GB/9 61
7 Erron Kinney Ten/9 57
8 L.J. Smith Phi/5 52
9 Anthony Becht NYJ/3 48
10 Eric Johnson SF/7 44
11 Mark Campbell Buf/3 43
12 Teyo Johnson Oak/10 41
13 Ben Troupe - R Ten/9 41
14 Kyle Brady Jac/9 41
15 Doug Jolley Oak/10 40
16 Jed Weaver Den/10 40
17 Byron Chamberlain Den/10 38
18 Jerramy Stevens Sea/4 37
19 Brandon Manumaleuna StL/8 37
20 Christian Fauria NE/3 34
21 Matt Schobel Cin/5 34
22 Chad Lewis Phi/5 29
23 Mikhael Ricks NYJ/3 29
24 Stephen Alexander Det/4 25
25 Kris Mangum Car/3 24

PKs

1 David* Akers Phi/5 141
2 Jay* Feely Atl/9 130
3 Aaron Elling Min/4 127
4 Joe* Nedney Ten/9 125
5 Martin* Gramatica TB/8 121
6 Olindo Mare Mia/10 117
7 Jason Hanson Det/4 112
8 Doug Brien NYJ/3 110
9 Shayne Graham Cin/5 107
10 Josh Scobee Jac/9 101
11 Phil Dawson Cle/8 101
12 Kris Brown Hou/7 100
13 Billy Cundiff Dal/4 99
14 Todd Peterson SF/7 95
15 Rian Lindell Buf/3 93
16 Nate Kaeding - R SD/10 86
17 Neil Rackers Ari/6 84
18 Bill Gramatica NYG/6 74

DEF/ST

1 Atlanta Atl/9 134
2 Seattle Sea/4 122
3 New Orleans 119
4 Oakland Oak/10 115
5 Washingto Was/7 113
6 Chicago Chi/5 110
7 Detroit Det/4 108
8 IndianapolisInd/6 106
9 Cleveland Cle/8 106
10 San DiegoSD/10 105
11 Denver Den/10 102
12 JacksonvilleJac/9 101
13 NY Jets NYJ/3 101
14 CincinnatiCin/5 97
15 Arizona Ari/6 95
16 Houston Hou/7 86




Another important note is that this list is compiled with rankings from before training came. No one has emerged as a starter, or been hurt, which inevitably raises some of the backups and turns them into draft day targets. On top of that, every year there is a surprise drop or two that a team that is targeting a top 12 player who could wind up helping a team with a weakness at another spot. Examples from last year include Johnnie Morton, Moe Williams, and Freddie Jones. Again, not world beaters, but they add to the desire to drop players.


In the first five years, our keeper experience has been rookie qbs going, and a couple of times rookie rbs going first, even if the rookie isn't projected to start, unless there is a dominant free agent avaliable because of an injury.

Let's see what our teams might do as far as dropping players.

Dave's not Here: drop 8. He can even drop a decent starter if he wants, because he has first pick in every round and can snap his guy back up at the beginning of the second. He may keep his Ravens defense, but he'll easily make the drop. One of the rookie Joneses looks attractive to him here, or maybe Bell for Denver. Or maybe he stocks up for the future with Manning.

Manipulator: drop 8. Needs help at QB bad, and Brunell is attractive. Or maybe he thinks Rivers will be a good fit. When a rookie QB comes out and is projected to start, like Palmer and Brees were the last few years, this is a lock. Dropping the D and the kickers is the best way to get him there. Maybe Brunell, but probably Carr. Young and good.

Frontal Assault: drop 8. Steady at Qb and lucked out at RB with Dillon going to NE. Needs to keep his kicker and at least one of his D, which won games for him last year. Probably takes one of the top receivers.

Avengers: drop 8. Holes everywhere, and lots of guys who may or may not be starting.

Newcastle: drop 6, maybe 7. He needs a runningback, and there are a lot out there that are better than his starters. If he can go in the second, he has a chance at Davis (if people go rookie crazy), or one of the injury starters. His team is a too strong to drop 8, but it's possible. But dropping Kitna, Arlen Harris, Anthony Thomas, Dallas Clark are no brainers. Probably one of his kickers and defenses, too.

Beat This: drop 4. No huge holes, but Hakim dropped off the face of the earth in Detroit, Anderson is retired, McMichael is going to jail, and Travis Taylor is a bust. Why hold onto them? Probably drop the D, too, but we won't count it against them.

Yoshimitsu Crew: drop 5. These are the must cuts. Flutie, Williams, Engram, Mili, and Whitten. There is just too much out there to hold onto these guys. He can always pick them back up if things go against him.

Grid Iron Girlie: drop 5. This is just going by the numbers again. This team might drop more, but there is no reason (right now) to hold onto Jeff Blake, Candidate, Bates, Campbell, or Kleinsasser.

Talkin' Heads: drop 3. Again, just the obvious drops where he can definately upgrade his team, even late. Ramsey, Jackson, and Miller. He may even hold onto Miller because he still has hype stuck in his head for this kid last year.

North Texas Armadillos : drop 1. Maybe he keeps his whole team together, but I can't see him keeping Hambrick where there will be other options out there. Maybe he'll take a sleeper. Sleepers are very popular in keeper leagues.

Obviously, this is a 10 team league where the rosters will be stronger. Once things start thinning out with more teams, things get more interesting. It's cheaper to get rid of a player, but the risk is greater. There are more teams that can take your player away from you, but the talent near the bottom is more evened out, making sleepers and breakout players more valuable.

This system isn't perfect, but it's not as cut and dried as one might think. While the price of the keeper may go down as you approach the maximum roster size, most teams will not have the depth avalible to take a chance on skipping too many rounds, even if they don't have a chance at the top picks.
The more people that hold onto their players, the richer the pool is for the rebuilding teams, and teams can come back VERY quickly with a good draft.

So, that's basically how our redraft plays out. I'm sure you'll find holes in this, and I'd love to hear what they are. I only ask that you remain civil in your observations. :)

[QuikSand]

Okay, Sachmo... since you offer up a lot of examples, I want to try to think through one of them. Let's look at this team Newcastle -- which you say is "too strong to drop 8."

Here is their roster:

NewCastle
T Brady - 275
J Kitna - 22
L Tomlinson - 315
B Westbrook - 172
A Harris - 16
A Thomas - 78
R Gardner - 105
P Burress - 122
S Smith - 166
P Warrick - 110
D Branch - 109
D Clark - 64
D Patriots - 160
D Dolphins - 140
J Carney - 127
M Stover - 135

From that, I'm guessing the ideal keeper list of 8 would look something like this (a little tough to say):

QB Brady
RB Tomlinson
RB Westbrook
WR Gardner
WR Burress
WR S Smith
D Patriots
D Dolphins

..or something like that (I think the absolute specifics aren't too important here).

That would make his 9th possible keeper someone like WR Peter Warrick, or perhaps one of those two defenses.

As I understand it -- his decision is whether to (1) keep Warrick, or (2) dump Warrick and gain a first round pick in the coming draft. We know that there are going to be several potential impact rookies, not to mention the several solid players on the throw-back list, plus the guys that are already there as free agents.

What's the worst that he could possibly get with that first round pick? Is there any scenario under which he wouuld be settling for Peter Warrick? Is there any chance at all?

Put it this way. You suggest that this team might keep 9, thinking that he might get RB Domanick Davis in the second round of the draft. If he instead threw back Peter Warrick, and when his turn came up in round one of the draft -- would he choose Warrick over Davis? Of course not. But by keeping Warrick instead of that pick, that's essentially what he's doing there -- and it makes no sense to me.

I just have to think that unless you have someone who, as a function of pride or really good skill, has a more or less completely intact team he wants to carry over (since once you get past the top draft pick, the penalty for an additional keeper drops from there -- making each additional guy less painful to keep) then this keeper system just lends itself to having pretty much everyone keep the minimum of eight players. In a league of perfectly rational actors, I'd expect something like nine teems keeping 8 payers, and maybe one guy keeping practically his whole roster. In this NewCastle guy's case -- I just don't see how it makes any sense at all for him to keep his 9th player, and lose that top draft choice.

Maybe in your league you've got teams that routinely keep 9 or 10 players... I can't account for tastes. But my thinking is that these guys are just screwing themselves by keeping those extra players, and are losing out on better talent that would be avaiable in the draft. (As civil as I can get)

That's my thinking...

In the overall sense, it's clear that in a keeper system like this, you're going to have a whole different draft experience than year-to-year leagues, and that the very first draft is going to make a huge impact on the league forever. I've played in leagues where tis was the case (the latter argument) and it's fallen apart -- congratulations to you all for keeping yours together. But if I'm in such a league, and my team doesn't have much of a keeper list -- what on earth am I to do? Tank for two years, and trade for a few good keepers, and get the top rookies?

And then, in an internet environment, you have to expect that the weaker teams will drop out... meaning what do you have left? Six or eight powerhouse teams left winning the league, and a few empty teams with miserable keeper lists, and not much chance to get back into contention. All things equal, I'm thinking a super-deep keeper list like this lends itself much better to a tight group of friends than to a league assembled over the internet, where there are no personal repercussions from slacking off or dropping out.


My thoughts... for what they're worth.

[hoopsguy]

Here is what we are doing currently, plus what I'm proposing we add.

Twelve team league. We can keep up to three keepers per team (15 player rosters). Keepers can be retained for three seasons. Which usually means that players like Moss are never eligible for draft because in season 3 before the trading deadline (three weeks before end of regular season, or after week 10 to be precise) they are traded for another third year keeper (Harrison, for example).

If you keep less than three keepers, you get a supplemental draft pick at the top of the board. I kept one last season and was able to pick up Jamal Lewis with the first pick and Stephen Davis with my second pick, since a lot of the owners kept three players. Just posing as an example of the players who are available. RBs, as expected, make up the majority of the keepers, with a few WRs, a couple of elite QBs, and sometimes Tony Gonzalez.

We are looking at expanding rosters again this year to add individual defensive players and possibly adding a flex player and/or coach. The emphasis here is to add more options for scoring, diminishing the massive impact of two stud running backs to dominate a league, as they often do in fantasy football leagues. We are trying to encourage a system that rewards a deep team, not a team with 2 studs. As a concession, the keeper rules may expand to allow additional keepers, but with a fee of $50 for the fourth keeper ($100 entry fee, plus $10 for low scoring team each week). Potentially a team could keep as many players as they want, but it gets very expensive quickly relative to the entry fee for the rest of the league. An early season injury is a significant threat for someone who is paying a 50% premium to keep Culpepper as his fourth guy along with a WR and two RBs, for example.

Anyways, that is what we are doing in our league, which is now in its 10th season and has been a lot of fun the past couple of years as we continue to tinker with the rules to provide a more dynamic environment while finally cultivating a good group of coaches who compete hard.

[Logan]

As a concession, the keeper rules may expand to allow additional keepers, but with a fee of $50 for the fourth keeper ($100 entry fee, plus $10 for low scoring team each week).

I really like that last $10 charge. I'm assuming you use this to prevent a team from tanking a game/season for a top pick the next year, or at least make them pay to do so?

[hoopsguy]

Exactly. That one went in a couple of seasons ago after we had some issues with questionable trades down the stretch. Of course, the commish has powers to block trades, but that invites a lot of ill feelings within the league. So this seemed like a good way to prevent that, as well as incentive for the weaker teams to continue to try and improve over the course of a season rather than just coast through a bad season and "wait 'til next year"

[QuikSand]

Twelve team league. We can keep up to three keepers per team (15 player rosters). Keepers can be retained for three seasons. Which usually means that players like Moss are never eligible for draft because in season 3 before the trading deadline (three weeks before end of regular season, or after week 10 to be precise) they are traded for another third year keeper (Harrison, for example).

I'd much prefer a "hard" limit of three years, rather than one that resets every time the player changes hands.

[sachmo71]

Good points, Quik. this system may be too much for internet play. Thanks for the input, and thanks for being civil.

[hoopsguy]

Quik, I don't disagree with you at all. But it has been a tough sell as league owners are mesmerized by their stud keeper, rather than looking at what will be more fun long-term. Which is one of the reasons that I have pushed for more players/scoring options to limit the impact of the keeper, which has been so outsized in comparison to what I think was originally intended.

We had one point where you were allowed four keepers. Defenses are big players in our league, but their performances are so random that they don't merit a high draft pick. Kickers are almost always worthless, as are roughly nine of the twelve starting TEs. So with four keepers people were bringing back (assuming no injuries) probably 60% of their points from the previous season. It didn't lend itself well to fluid standings, but the guys winning three division titles in a row didn't mind so much ...

The note here for your league is to make sure you understand the impact keepers will have on the league, because implementing changes later is tough once people incorporate their own agendas rather than what is best for the league. And, of course, I probably have my own agenda I'm trying to implement as commish, given that I don't have knockout keepers. But I tell myself that I'm trying to make a fluid dynamic league, and I believe myself most of the time.