Why do the Phillies suck so bad

[stevew]

This season is getting annoying. We are now 1 game over .500, and on at least a 5 game skid. We just got swept by the Marlins for 4 games. At this point, I dont understand why Bowa isnt gone yet. His team has quit on him.

Wade goes out and gets us a couple relief arms, which is nice, but Im hoping this wont be another "Turk Wendell" type situation, where the guys that come in end up losing us the division. We have let the shitty Braves get up 4.5 games already.

Honestly, as long as Brian fucking Powell is in our rotation, we wont be going anywhere.

[lynchjm24]

They don't have good enough players.

[Easy Mac]

Yes, a team is obviously shitty when they've won the past 12 division titles and have one of the best closers in baseball.

[bbor]

Replace Phillies...with Blue Jays

[bbor]

Dola...oh wait....the Jays were mathematically eliminated in May

[Cringer]

Replace Phillies...with Blue Jays

The replace Blue Jays......with Astros. :(

[Philliesfan980]

This season is getting annoying. We are now 1 game over .500, and on at least a 5 game skid. We just got swept by the Marlins for 4 games. At this point, I dont understand why Bowa isnt gone yet. His team has quit on him.

Wade goes out and gets us a couple relief arms, which is nice, but Im hoping this wont be another "Turk Wendell" type situation, where the guys that come in end up losing us the division. We have let the shitty Braves get up 4.5 games already.

Honestly, as long as Brian fucking Powell is in our rotation, we wont be going anywhere.


Well, first off, Brian Powell isn't in the rotation.

But the bottom line is the Phillies just aren't good enough. Their lineup is prone to streaks, and when they all get into a bad funk at the same time, look out, because its not going to be pretty. Way too many strikeouts in the lineup, and not enough contact guys. Watching the past 4 game series against the Marlins made me realize what a complete team the Marlins are (Against the Phillies atleast). They have guys at the top of the order who know how to get on base in Pierre and Castillo. Just watching Castillo hit was a pleasure. He was chopping down on the ball, beating it into the ground for singles. I wish Rollins would learn a thing or two from him.

As for the trades, I think this is going to end the season. Last year at the deadline, Wade added Mike Williams, who was a complete distaster for the Phillies. If you can't throw hard, you better throw strikes. I've never seen so many 83 mile an hour sliders in my life way out of the zone. I suspect the same thing will happen with Todd Jones, who's career has been terrible over the last few years, but is having an average year this year. Felix Rod. is nice, but Ledee's left handed bat off the bench and centerfielder play might be more valuable.

Now instead of getting a CF via trade, they bring up Marlin Byrd, who they demoted 2 months ago. He's currently hitting .240 in triple A. Now explain that one to me.

[EagleFan]

BOWA MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's a freaking cartoon character out there. His idiotic tantrums when getting thrown out of a game are pathetic to watch. He has lost the team, take him out of the equation.

[stevew]

Err, I mean Paul Abbott, not Brian Powell. Same difference. He sucks.
Remember when Myers was considered an ace in training? That seems like a long time ago.

[tucker rocky]

The Phillies need top notch pitching to counteract the slumps that the Phillies hitters are prone to.

Would a Steve Finley addition be viable?
Maybe the Phillies should go after some more decent prospects.
A catcher upgrade would be nice, 2b also. Players that can steal and play to Bowa's style might be needed.

[tucker rocky]

Err, I mean Paul Abbott, not Brian Powell. Same difference. He sucks.
Remember when Myers was considered an ace in training? That seems like a long time ago.

Yes, Abbott has got to go! :mad:

[tucker rocky]

Millwood also has his ups and downs.
More downs than ups. :(
Phils need to dump his ass after this season.

[IMetTrentGreen]

any team that puts paul abbot in the rotation is not the kind that will end up winning many games

[tucker rocky]

You would think with a line-up that has Thome, Abreu, Burrell, Bell, Liberthal, you would produce runs, and the pitching would do an adequate job.
Millwood, Padilla, Wolf, Myers, and Milton all looked like a decent to solid rotation at start of the season.
The injury bug has not been kind this season, Wagner, Thome, Bell, Padilla, Wolf, and maybe a few others.

[tucker rocky]

any team that puts paul abbot in the rotation is not the kind that will end up winning many games

Where did they find this chump of a pitcher? independent league?!?

[tucker rocky]

BOWA MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's a freaking cartoon character out there. His idiotic tantrums when getting thrown out of a game are pathetic to watch. He has lost the team, take him out of the equation.
Who would they get to replace Bowa? Not many quality managers left.
Oh wait, Bochy is available, yes bring him in and they will be a 1 or 2 season wonder, just like in Arizona. :) :(

[FBPro]

hehehe..........:)

[tucker rocky]

Watching the Phils and Cubs....Millwood!...you suck also! :mad:

[FBPro]

Watching the Phils and Cubs....Millwood!...you suck also! :mad:

Go Estrada!!!!!!!!

[EagleFan]

Who would they get to replace Bowa? Not many quality managers left.
Oh wait, Bochy is available, yes bring him in and they will be a 1 or 2 season wonder, just like in Arizona. :) :(


I don't care who they get, anyone could do better than that ass-clown Bowa.

[tucker rocky]

I don't care who they get, anyone could do better than that ass-clown Bowa.
Gary Varsho...Milt Thompson....Greg Gross
3b coach Vukovich is probably way overdue to lead the team.

[korme]

Replace Phillies...with Blue Jays
Replace Phillies...with Reds

[tucker rocky]

I'm looking at the Phillies page, and IMHO the Phils would be dumb to give up LH/1b Ryan Howard, 6-4 240 .298 37HRs 102RBI in 100 games, albeit he is still in AA ball and the majors is totally different.

[stevew]

I'm looking at the Phillies page, and IMHO the Phils would be dumb to give up LH/1b Ryan Howard, 6-4 240 .298 37HRs 102RBI in 100 games, albeit he is still in AA ball and the majors is totally different.

Howard is a 1 position player, who is also 24 or 25 in AA ball. He will never play ahead of Thome. So Im not sure what we will do with him. Trading him right now when he is at the peak of his value as a prospect, could bring us a decent return.

[ageofquarrel]

I'm looking at the Phillies page, and IMHO the Phils would be dumb to give up LH/1b Ryan Howard, 6-4 240 .298 37HRs 102RBI in 100 games, albeit he is still in AA ball and the majors is totally different.

Why? They already have a 1st baseman in Thome. You could probably get a decent veteran out of Howard while he still has value, and howard cant play any other position. I dont think that it is the time for the phils to look for the future. If they could get a Number 1 starter and a decent contact hitter in CF. I think they would be good enough to get to the world series.

[tucker rocky]

Millwood!...you big dummy! :mad:

[tucker rocky]

...a hard bunt into a DP.....Arrgh!

[tucker rocky]

Why? They already have a 1st baseman in Thome. You could probably get a decent veteran out of Howard while he still has value, and howard cant play any other position. I dont think that it is the time for the phils to look for the future. If they could get a Number 1 starter and a decent contact hitter in CF. I think they would be good enough to get to the world series.
Phils better hurry, Finley is the only decent CF out there.

[tucker rocky]

Alright Bowa, lets not leave Millwood in there to much longer...

[mauchow]

gg so far

[tucker rocky]

Oh no, why is Rheal Crummier into the game....alright Rheal, lets really get a SO!

[tucker rocky]

good, good, out of that inning.

[mauchow]

1 out left..

and it lies in the hands of a phillie-killer(a new name for him)

[Vince]

I think you guys got a pretty good deal with Felix Rodriguez. I have no idea why the Giants are trading away one of their best bullpen arms when it looks from my standpoint that they need help in the bullpen even WITH Felix Rodruguez back there.

Ledee is going to be a nice left-handed bat to protect Bonds (Giants have sucked against RHP this season), but man has our outfield been one giant clusterfuck this year.

EDIT - Anyone know who the minor leaguer is that was reportedly sent to the Giants with Ledee?

[tucker rocky]

I think you guys got a pretty good deal with Felix Rodriguez. I have no idea why the Giants are trading away one of their best bullpen arms when it looks from my standpoint that they need help in the bullpen even WITH Felix Rodruguez back there.

Ledee is going to be a nice left-handed bat to protect Bonds (Giants have sucked against RHP this season), but man has our outfield been one giant clusterfuck this year.

EDIT - Anyone know who the minor leaguer is that was reportedly sent to the Giants with Ledee?

RHP Alfredo Simon

[Vince]

Any idea if he's any good? I'm going to go try to find some info on him.

Hm. He's apparently pretty good, but had some issues with having the wrong age on his Visa. He was 21 months older than the Phillies thought he was. Pretty strong numbers in A ball - Low 3 ERA, 107 Ks in 130 IP, 4 of 20 starts were complete games. I don't know much about pitching stats from lower leagues and how they translate to higher leagues (I know MUCH more about minor league hitting stats), but those are some promising numbers. Interestingly enough, I can't seem to find how old this kid is, even though I found a story saying that he was older than the Phillies thought.

[pennywisesb]

I think you guys got a pretty good deal with Felix Rodriguez. I have no idea why the Giants are trading away one of their best bullpen arms when it looks from my standpoint that they need help in the bullpen even WITH Felix Rodruguez back there.

Ledee is going to be a nice left-handed bat to protect Bonds (Giants have sucked against RHP this season), but man has our outfield been one giant clusterfuck this year.

EDIT - Anyone know who the minor leaguer is that was reportedly sent to the Giants with Ledee?
Vince, I was just thinking this today. What were the Giants thinking in getting rid of Felix Rodriguez? He is one of your best setup guys and in return they get Ricky Ledee? Wow, I have no idea what Sabean was thinking. It just seems to me that they could have gotten someone better for Rodriguez.

[Vince]

More thoughts on Alfredo Simon - he's apparently 23 (ironically enough, born two months before me), and the visa problems weren't just with his age - he was apparently going by the name Carlos Cabrera. He pitched two consecutive complete game shutouts, and was considered to be one of the Phillies' top pitching prospects.

Josh - I have no idea. Like I said above, the Giants suck against right handed pitching, but I think Feel-Rod is a bit much to give up to fix this particular problem.

[Vince]

Dola - Heh, the fifth Google hit for his name is his player card from some OOTP league. That's kind of funny.

[pennywisesb]

Dola - Heh, the fifth Google hit for his name is his player card from some OOTP league. That's kind of funny.
Stop it Vince, just stop it.

[Crapshoot]

I think you guys got a pretty good deal with Felix Rodriguez. I have no idea why the Giants are trading away one of their best bullpen arms when it looks from my standpoint that they need help in the bullpen even WITH Felix Rodruguez back there.

Ledee is going to be a nice left-handed bat to protect Bonds (Giants have sucked against RHP this season), but man has our outfield been one giant clusterfuck this year.

EDIT - Anyone know who the minor leaguer is that was reportedly sent to the Giants with Ledee?

the minor leaguer was the Phillies no 6 prospect, who just pitched 3 straight complete games- a damn nice arm. F-rod is not worth 3.15 million next year (his player option). in terms of pure talent, they won out IMO. but the fact is, their offense has been 3rd in the NL, while the "blowpen" had been well.... see the nomenclature.

[JimboJ]

It really doesn't matter whether Felix Rodroguez or Todd Jones are any good. They will end up on the DL within a few weeks anyway. I think its time for some kind of investigation as to why every single pitcher the Phillies bring in here ends up with arm trouble. And it's not this just year - it happens every season.

I don't think you can blame Bowa for this mess. Besides making out the lineups, and making substitutions during a game, a major league manager is pretty much irrelevent. If the players don't like his personality, who cares? Billy Wagner said it best, when he said they have too many players who are just too sensitive on that team.

And what they really lack more than anything is a vocal leader in the clubhouse. I was hoping it would be Thome, but apparently he doesn't have the personality for it.

And yes, Paul Abbot has to go. Figures he's the only one without some kind of arm trouble. :)

[cuervo72]

Yes, a team is obviously shitty when they've won the past 12 division titles and have one of the best closers in baseball.

Hey, at least not all of those division titles were at the Phillies' expense.

[Vince]

The more I look at this trade, the more I am amazed by it. It seems like Sabean definitely got the best of Wade, but this move is completely the opposite of what the Giants need right now. The way the team is set up (read: Barry Bonds), our window of opportunity is really close to closing. We need ML-Ready players, not single-A studs who are going to be great.

The only thing I can think of was that this wasn't supposed to be the only move the Giants made, and that Simon was supposed to go somewhere else before the deadline.

[Ben E Lou]

We have let the shitty Braves get up 4.5 games already.Hey Easy, FBPro and the others...would this be the right time to tell them about Chipper learning the Jedi Mind Trick? ;)

[GrantDawg]

Hey Easy, FBPro and the others...would this be the right time to tell them about Chipper learning the Jedi Mind Trick? ;)
Chipper to the Phillies "You WILL fall apart mid-season..."

[Ben E Lou]

Make that 5.5 games. :D

[Philliesfan980]

Today's game was yet another example of their incompetence. Bases loaded in the 8th inning, nobody out then..

Lieberthal strikes out
Utley strikes out
Michaels hits a weak popup to 2nd.

Pretty much sums up this team. No clutch performers whatsoever. Braves have a decent team, but won't get out of the first round. But hey, its better than what the Phillies can ever do.

[Easy Mac]

The Braves have the best pitching in baseball. (not that I think Cox can manage his way out of an upside down paper bag)

[mauchow]

The Braves have the best pitching in baseball.

HuH? I will be the first to say bull crap to that one.

Their ERA is 3.66 while the Cubs are right behind them with a 3.68.

Are you saying they have the best pitching because they're two points ahead of them, or because you're trying to be funny.

The Cubs easily have the best staff when healthy.

Plus, the Cubs have played better teams than the stinkin braves who play soc of crap teams. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Man, being 10 games back makes some people downright surly ;)

[Philliesfan980]

Please everyone. Lets keep this thread to the Phillies utter incompetence.

[GrantDawg]

The Braves have the best pitching coach in baseball. (not that I think Cox can manage his way out of an upside down paper bag)

Fixed it for ya.

[Easy Mac]

technically the ERA is the best in baseball, so the pitching is working (I understand what you're saying, but still).

[Ben E Lou]

We have let the shitty Braves get up 4.5 games already. Heck, that was nothin'. ;)


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 vspace="4"><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=top align=middle bgColor=#003399 colSpan=7>NL EAST STANDINGS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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[FBPro]

Classic...

[Suicane75]

How frickin pathetic this team is. Part of me wishes they would fire the entire coaching staff and bring back Fregosi. They really screwed the pooch on this ballpark, build your team around a bunch of young pitchers and then give them a bandbox to pitch in, jesus h christ do I hate Ed Wade. I wish Dykstra, Daulton, Kruk and Hollins would walk into that locker room and beat the living hell out of every single player on that team.

[tucker rocky]

No love for the Phillies this season,
Bowa, YOU'RE FIRED! :mad:

[tucker rocky]

Injuries hurt this team, the lastest was Burrell OFTS with a wrist injury,
to much jacking off at the plate and in the clubhouse.

This team needs a new direction, manager-wise.

[GrantDawg]

I have a feeling if they fired Bowa today, it would be worth at least 5-8 extra wins before the end of the season, most likely with a winning streak of that length starting the day after he was gone!

[tucker rocky]

Weaks spots to improve on next season,

Hire a competent manager,
a cf who can hit,
2b
sp and bullpen, Roberto Hernandez MUST GO!, HE SUCKS!
and Oh yeah, A GM who will make competent player deals!
(Ledee for F. Rodriguez, WTF?!?, your best ph and spot starter for a reliever.)

[tucker rocky]

I seen enough of Bowa, get Gary Varsho,Vuckovich, somebody.

[tucker rocky]

Bowa worn-out his welcome as Padre manager, and now the Phillies.
Granted he was good ball-player, but terrible manager.

[tucker rocky]

My choice for new Phillies manager would be, 3b coach Vuckovich.

[stevew]

I cant believe they are 8 back already. I think it may be time to look into a new team. 25 years of futility enables one to change allegiences i suppose.

[tucker rocky]

I cant believe they are 8 back already. I think it may be time to look into a new team. 25 years of futility enables one to change allegiences i suppose.

Never!
Phillies all the way, good and bad times.

The team just needs to start making smarter decisions, player-wise and management-wise.

[stevew]

Wade has done so many 3 for 1 and 4 for 1 prospect trades that right now something like 3 players project to be above replacement level major leaguers in our AA or AAA rosters. Wade may as well have traded 40 hr guy Howard for some help when the division was within reach. Its not like he will get any PT behind Thome.

[Philliesfan980]

Wade has done so many 3 for 1 and 4 for 1 prospect trades that right now something like 3 players project to be above replacement level major leaguers in our AA or AAA rosters. Wade may as well have traded 40 hr guy Howard for some help when the division was within reach. Its not like he will get any PT behind Thome.


If he keeps playing like the way he has been (Thome sucking) he will.

[stevew]

If he keeps playing like the way he has been (Thome sucking) he will.

Ideally trading Burrell and Thome, and replacing them with a free agent like nomar or beltran would be much better for the club. But nobody would trade for either right now, especially with how much thome and burrell are both owed.

[tucker rocky]

Not being able to beat the Braves and Marlins also hurts, alot.
Losing to last place teams, Rockies for example.
Bullpen blowing leads.

[stevew]

Who owns the Phillies(besides the braves and Marlins). Is it some sort of "Group", cause i almost never see their owner listed by name.

[Philliesfan980]

I'm a partial season ticket holder, but I haven't been to a game in a few weeks. This team just disgusts me in so many ways, I really don't have the energy to get into it. I'm still supporting the team... to LOSE! I honestly hope they lose each and every game for the rest of the season. Its the only way that any real change will be made here. If they make a small run in September and cut the lead down to 5 games, then mgt will say "well, if it wasn't for the injuries....". Thats what we don't need to happen. This lineup, collectively speaking, is a complete disaster. Very few contact guys, little to no speed, and too many k's. Most of these guys wouldn't be terrible if they were on other teams, but the way this lineup is contstructed , it just won't work.

I'd be willing to support a complete rebuild project (too bad they have no prospects), over the next few years. With some of the salaries on this team, not sure if that can happen.

[tucker rocky]

Oh wait, we can beat the Dodgers, Padres, Expos, to bad we can't play them all year.

[Crapshoot]

the K's are not a problem- as much as every sportswriter likes to cite them. Millwood is a league average pitcher who Wade commiitted $11 million to. Milton is a league average pitcher who Wade committed $9 million to. Burell's deal was ridiculous in that bought out free agency at a ridiculous cost. An idiot GM combined with a manager with the intelligence and general manners of a 3 year old, and what exactly do you expect ?

[tucker rocky]

Expos can beat the Braves, Phillies can not.
Expos can beat the Marlins, Phillies can not.

Hmm, maybe Phillie ownership can get the Expos players in a massive trade.

[Philliesfan980]

the K's are not a problem- as much as every sportswriter likes to cite them. Millwood is a league average pitcher who Wade commiitted $11 million to. Milton is a league average pitcher who Wade committed $9 million to. Burell's deal was ridiculous in that bought out free agency at a ridiculous cost. An idiot GM combined with a manager with the intelligence and general manners of a 3 year old, and what exactly do you expect ?

Yep, agree 100% with you there, those two decisions weren't the best. Pitching is another topic alltogether.

But so say that that K's arent a problem is wrong. The only way the Phillies can score nowadays is by the HR ball, they can't string together any hits to get runs across.

[tucker rocky]

Phillies can be rebuilt, faster, stronger, better.
Kind of like the bionic man.

Because this season the Phillies were up and going, then crashed and burned.

[stevew]

The inning ending strikeouts are the problem. The team needs a few more patient hitters who can get on base. As far as i think, Rollins batting the leadoff is the biggest problem. He'd be okay in our lineup as the #8 hitter cause he has a pretty solid glove, but as the #1 hitter he barely walks and only gets on base 33% of the time. Utley is a promising power hitter, but he also does not like to take a walk. Byrd is a mess, Lieby is on the decline. Altogether the lineup is a clusterfuck.

[Crapshoot]

Yep, agree 100% with you there, those two decisions weren't the best. Pitching is another topic alltogether.

But so say that that K's arent a problem is wrong. The only way the Phillies can score nowadays is by the HR ball, they can't string together any hits to get runs across.

This whole contact arguement doesnt make sense. A K is not worse than any other out for a hitter- the potential downside of not advancing any potentil runner is matched by the fact that you aren't likely to ground into a double play either by not making contact.

Philly's offense is Thome, Abreau, and Burell- whos out for the season. Bell is a league average hitter on his best day. Thanks to Larry Bowa's brilliance, Jimmy Rollins has regressed since an outstanding first year- his plate discipline has eroded, because dumbass Larry wants more players like him.

[stevew]

The k's indicate the lack of patience at the plate. Immature hitting.

[Philliesfan980]

This whole contact arguement doesnt make sense. A K is not worse than any other out for a hitter- the potential downside of not advancing any potentil runner is matched by the fact that you aren't likely to ground into a double play either by not making contact.

Philly's offense is Thome, Abreau, and Burell- whos out for the season. Bell is a league average hitter on his best day. Thanks to Larry Bowa's brilliance, Jimmy Rollins has regressed since an outstanding first year- his plate discipline has eroded, because dumbass Larry wants more players like him.

I see your logic behind the "K's offset double play" logic well enough. I disagree with it on some levels, but thats another baseball strategy topic alltogether.

My baseball preference is not the homerun. Its a well played, well pitched, timely hitting baseball game. The phillies have esentially screwed themselves with the new stadium. As great as it looks, it might be worse than Coors Field.Now the Phillies are forced to load up on HR guys (who consequently have high strikeouts). Whats going to end up happening is them being like the Texas Rangers of a few years ago where it was all power and 0 pitching. Not a combination for a winning club.

[JimboJ]

Who owns the Phillies(besides the braves and Marlins). Is it some sort of "Group", cause i almost never see their owner listed by name.

Yes, it is a group of owners who prefer to remain relatively anonymous, and never speak to the media.

The guy who speaks for the ownership is team president Dave Montgomery, who just recently gave GM Ed Wade a vote of confidence. His rationale was that the team is better now than when Wade took over 7 years ago. Sure, they went from terrible to mediocre...whoopie!

On the other hand, he refused to give any vote of confidence to Bowa. So guess who's gone after the season (if he makes it that far)?

[Crapshoot]

The k's indicate the lack of patience at the plate. Immature hitting.

no, they dont- some of the hitters with the highest walk totals (ie Thome) have high K's - because they're willing to wait.

[Crapshoot]

I see your logic behind the "K's offset double play" logic well enough. I disagree with it on some levels, but thats another baseball strategy topic alltogether.

My baseball preference is not the homerun. Its a well played, well pitched, timely hitting baseball game. The phillies have esentially screwed themselves with the new stadium. As great as it looks, it might be worse than Coors Field.Now the Phillies are forced to load up on HR guys (who consequently have high strikeouts). Whats going to end up happening is them being like the Texas Rangers of a few years ago where it was all power and 0 pitching. Not a combination for a winning club.

I disagree- on a personal preference ,you're welcome to whatever style you like, but the Phillies problem is not the HR hitters- they rank 7th in baseball in HR's, and 7th in OBP - hardly a recipie for disaster, and an indication that they're still getting on. What they do have is a lower BA- but their OPS puts them at no 12. if anything, their problem has been the lack of power (overall slugging) given the fairly high OBP>

[FBPro]

I don't know, I kinda like the way the Phillies are playing this year. :)

[stevew]

Same shit, different year.

Go Yankees.

[stevew]

Oh god.

Did I say that Howard would never play in front of Thome 2 different times here.

Jeebus.

I suppose at the time Thome was coming off a 40 some homer season, and Howard was a 25 year old one tool AA'er.

Man, if only i had a delete button.

:)