Nomar to the Cubs

[Arles]

No specifics, but on the front page of ESPN

[Easy Mac]

and the red sox quit.

[Cuckoo]

Wow, I just came to post this, and you beat me.

[Vince]

Damn.

[pennywisesb]

Great move by Chicago, I wonder who they are gonna give up though?

[Vince]

ESPNews reporting that Jayson Stark says it's a four team deal, details are still 'trickling in.'

[Cuckoo]

Word is Cabrera is going to the BoSox. Cubs are giving up Alex Gonzalez and two prospects. People had speculated they'd give up Clement, but it's looking like they didn't.

[Cringer]

I hate the Cubs, I hate anything Chicago, now I have to hate Nomar for the rest of the season......

[Cuckoo]

Fox Sports is reporting that it's Francis Beltran and Brendan Harris as the two Cubs prospects. Both are solid prospects, but getting Nomar is huge.

[Ryan S]

I can't fnd any news about this anywhere

[pennywisesb]

I can't fnd any news about this anywhere
mlb page on ESPN.com

[Vince]

Which just says that Nomar is tentatively going to the Cubs.

[Cuckoo]

ESPN News said it's a four team deal including the Cubs, Twins, Expos, and BoSox. Doug M..(blah,blah) is on his way to Boston apparently with Cabrera, and Lowe is going to Minnesota.

[Barkeep49]

I'm excited to hear we got Nomar. Hendry has been excellent at trading and I wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs pull the trigger on another deal before the end of August.

[CentralMassHokie]

Word I'm getting is that the Sox picked up Clement, Cabrera, and Mientkiewicz for Nomar and Lowe.

Mientkiewicz is a big upgrade on Dave McCarty.

Clement is a big upgrade on Lowe.

Cabrera is a pretty big downgrade on Nomar (if he's healthy).

As a Sox fan, I'm sorry to see Nomar go, but unless he changes his style, it's hard to see him ever having a season like he did back in 99 or 00.

Here's what the deal is rumored to look like:

Red Sox:
In: Matt Clement, Orlando Cabrerra, Doug Mientkiewicz.
Out: Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Lowe

Cubs:
In: Nomar Garciaparra
Out: Alex Gonzalez, Prospect

Expos:
In: Alex Gonzalez, Prospect
Out: Orlando Cabrerra

Minnesota:
In: Derek Lowe
Out: Doug Mientkiewicz

[Cuckoo]

This is a very good deal for the Cubs, and I agree that Hendry has pulled off some good ones. They'll watch the wires for relievers over the next couple of weeks. That's the only other real weak spot.

I'll be curious to see if the Cubs will be able to resign Nomar as Alou and Clement are likely gone to free up some payroll room. If they can't, I still like the deal though because they gave up prospects, without giving up their top guys, and an unproductive shortstop they were going to resign anyway. Nice job Hendry.

[Shaun Sullivan]

I'm not too sure I like the sound of this.

I guess Theo had determined he had no chance of re-signing Nomar.

Man, I wish I could hear who the Sox got!

[Vince]

Wow. I can't believe that the Cubs turned Alex Gonzalez and a Prospect into Nomar. That's huge.

[mckerney]

ESPN News said it's a four team deal including the Cubs, Twins, Expos, and BoSox. Doug M..(blah,blah) is on his way to Boston apparently with Cabrera, and Lowe is going to Minnesota.

It's good if Mientkiewicz is leaving the Twins. I'm a big fan of his, but after being told he'd be traded and then feeling unwanted, I think it could have been a bad thing for him to hang around. Besides, the Twins need Morneau to start at first.

[Arles]

Good deal for the Sox if they got Clement. Giving up Clement, Gonzalez and a prospect for Nomar is a bit much for Chicago, but it's not all that bad a deal if Prior and Wood stay healthy.

[Cuckoo]

Chicago media is reporting Clement is not involved.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Well if we did lose Lowe, he just has to walk across the field since the Sox are in Minnesota tonight (and he was scheduled to start).

I am shaking... But if we got Clement I'd feel better.

[Vince]

I'd say that the Sox did pretty well for themselves...I've always liked Clement, and Mientkiewicz is pretty solid as well. Cabrera is a solid SS, and though it's tough to replace Nomar, I think he'll do an adequate job.

Edit - Why ever include Dola in a thread like this...bound to be incorrect by the time you put the post up :)

[Cuckoo]

If Clement is not involved, I can't see how this is a good deal for Boston. If he is, I'd say the Cubs gave up a bit too much.

[Shaun Sullivan]

I guess Doug M and Cabrera are OK considering Nomar has about 2 months left in Boston...

Unfortunately the Skankees got Loiza. Darn.

[pennywisesb]

The Cubs pitching will be just fine with Prior, Wood, and Zambrano. To get Nomar is a huge move for the Cubs. They basically got rid of a shortstop would couldn't hit his weight, and got a SS that is just as good on D and can put up huge numbers if he stays healthy. Man, I can't believe any team would want Derrick Lowe, but who knows, maybe a change of scenery will be good for him.

[MrBug708]

So, Nomar is stopping in Chicago before coming home....

[Barkeep49]

I'll be curious to see if the Cubs will be able to resign Nomar as Alou and Clement are likely gone to free up some payroll room. If they can't, I still like the deal though because they gave up prospects, without giving up their top guys, and an unproductive shortstop they were going to resign anyway. Nice job Hendry.

I agree with what you said but there has been some speculation by Phil Rodgers, who was also the first in Chicago media to speculate on Nomar, that the Cubs are going got make a run at Magglio Ordenez, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Nomar stick around. Players have been known to fall in love with the Cubs in the past so perhaps this could happen with Nomar even if he's previously said So Cal.

[Cuckoo]

I agree with what you said but there has been some speculation by Phil Rodgers, who was also the first in Chicago media to speculate on Nomar, that the Cubs are going got make a run at Magglio Ordenez, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Nomar stick around. Players have been known to fall in love with the Cubs in the past so perhaps this could happen with Nomar even if he's previously said So Cal.

Agree, agree. Even if he's just a rental, though, you've gotta love this deal for the Cubs. Everything I'm hearing is that Clement is not involved.

[mckerney]

Now hopefully Derek Lowe will run into the other clubhouse, get a Twins uniform on, and proceed to shutdown the Red Sox.

[Cuckoo]

For Cubs and Minnesota fans: I'm also hearing the Cubs had to ship Justin Jones to Minnesota in the deal. He's a top line prospect but just in A ball so he's at least 2-3 years off.

[CentralMassHokie]

If Clement is not involved, it's a pretty terrible deal for the Sox.

[pennywisesb]

If Clement is not involved, it's a pretty terrible deal for the Sox.
My sentiments exactly, who do they use to fill the void left by Derek Lowe?

[Cuckoo]

I didn't see it personally, but apparently Jim Hendry (GM of Cubs) confirmed it's a done deal on WGN, awaiting commissioner approval, and Matt Clement is not involved.

[mckerney]

For Cubs and Minnesota fans: I'm also hearing the Cubs had to ship Justin Jones to Minnesota in the deal. He's a top line prospect but just in A ball so he's at least 2-3 years off.

Nice to see Terry Ryan still adding quality prospects to the farm system.

[Cuckoo]

According to the MLB forums, the Score in Chicago is reporting the deal looks like this:

Cubs Get:
Nomar, $$ from Boston

Exops Get:
Beltran, Harris, & Gonzalez

BoSox Get:
Doug M. & Cabrera

Twins Get:
Lowe, Justin Jones

[pennywisesb]

According to the MLB forums, the Score in Chicago is reporting the deal looks like this:

Cubs Get:
Nomar, $$ from Boston

Exops Get:
Beltran, Harris, & Gonzalez

BoSox Get:
Doug M. & Cabrera

Twins Get:
Lowe, Justin Jones
If thats the deal, the Red Sox just got screwed. It seems to me they could have gotten a solid SP for Nomar, especially considering the Cubs have a ton of it.

[mauchow]

i'm really sad to see Brendan harris go.

His main position though was 3B, which is ARam's position, so it's okay, I guess.

Good deal for the Cubbies

[pennywisesb]

Dola, getting rid of Lowe was a good move though, so if you factor that in I guess it might not be as bad as I initially thought.

[Cuckoo]

i'm really sad to see Brendan harris go.

His main position though was 3B, which is ARam's position, so it's okay, I guess.

Good deal for the Cubbies

I'm actually more upset about losing Francis Beltran. Harris will be a solid defensive player who can play 2nd, short, or 3rd, and he'll hit for a good average, but the Cubs will have Ramirez at third for a long while. Beltran, though, could have been the answer at closer for the Cubs in the next year or so. He has amazing stuff, and I predict he'll be a very good one.

[davidlando1]

pardon me but...........:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[SirFozzie]

apparently Lowe is not part of the deal.

But hear that sound.. that's me banging my head against the wall and howling in protest.

Not that I don't like the trade or whatever.. :rolleyes:

[sovereignstar]

WCCO out of Minneapolis is reporting that Lowe is NOT part of the deal.

Go Twinkies! Way to grab that Single-A prospect while we're in a pennant race.

[McSweeny]

this trade sucks

Nomar was just on WEEI and said he'll never forget Boston and he thanked all the fans... damn this really sucks. All we can get for Nomar are a couple of bums? christ...

[Arles]

ESPN just reported that they think Boston essentially got Cabrera and Mientkiewicz for Nomar and cash. There was talk that Lowe and Clement would be involved, but Chicago apparently backed out on giving up Clement - so Boston kept Lowe.

[mckerney]

WCCO out of Minneapolis is reporting that Lowe is NOT part of the deal.

Go Twinkies! Way to grab that Single-A prospect while we're in a pennant race.

This opens up first base for Morneau to start, and after being told that he'd be traded, no good could come from Mientkiewicz staying with the team.

[pennywisesb]

WCCO out of Minneapolis is reporting that Lowe is NOT part of the deal.

Go Twinkies! Way to grab that Single-A prospect while we're in a pennant race.
LMAO, I just spit a half-mouthful of water on my computer!

[sovereignstar]

This opens up first base for Morneau to start, and after being told that he'd be traded, no good could come from Mientkiewicz staying with the team.
True. But after waking up from having a dream where I imagined Rick Reed rejoining the team, don't you think I'd be a a little disappointed?

[sovereignstar]

LMAO, I just spit a half-mouthful of water on my computer!
First things first. Is your computer all right?

And secondly, are you all right? Didn't get electricuted did you?

[The_herd]

Every Cub fan should write a thank you note to Theo Epstein.



Seriously.

[McSweeny]

Every Cub fan should write a thank you note to Theo Epstein.



Seriously.

yes

if this is true then the honey moon is over

[SirFozzie]

Yup.

To paraphrase Monty Python..

"He's a Dan Duqette wanna-be! Burn him!"

;D

Ugh.

[McSweeny]

i'm still holding out hope that this trade will look lots better once we get some official news. NESN press conference at 6 EST.

if it's still the same hose job i'm hoping Nomar fails his physical and the trade is void

[Desnudo]

They must have really wanted Nomar out of town.

[Ragone]

Does this mean peter gammons is gonna start bashing nomar now?

[Neuqua]

I love Jim Hendry. Where have you been all my life?

[Radii]

Can't believe that the cubs got nomar and just gave up Gonzo and Beltran. The bullpen is weak still and that worries the hell out of me, but Beltran was not impressing me so far. He may have had potential, but this team can win the world series this year, they have to go for it. Fucking incredible move by the Cubs IMO.

[Cards4ever]

Yeah, Cubs keep adding age and payroll, if that's what you want, go for it.

I'm curious to see if Dougie doesn't hit how the Boston faithful will react to him and his attitude. Good move by the Twins, better then letting him be a cancer to the club and it lets Morneau play.

Kind of wish the Cards could have come up with another OF, but, they should be ok.

[Arles]

To the surprise of all, Gammons likes the moves by Boston :p

[Cuckoo]

Yeah, Cubs keep adding age and payroll, if that's what you want, go for it.

I wish there was an emoticon for how loud I laughed when I read this. Wow, my friend, wow. The Cubs pick up one of the best shortstops in the game, and you have to find some way to knock them. Did I already say "Wow?"

[Cards4ever]

It's a great "right now" pickup, but, with what you had, don't you think you could win the Wild Card?

He's 31, he's going to go for a big contract, Cubs going to pay that? Doesn't Sosa have 1 year left on his deal at big bucks? And on top of that, your bullpen is weak, that's where you should have moved.

[Cuckoo]

It's a great "right now" pickup, but, with what you had, don't you think you could win the Wild Card?

He's 31, he's going to go for a big contract, Cubs going to pay that? Doesn't Sosa have 1 year left on his deal at big bucks? And on top of that, your bullpen is weak, that's where you should have moved.

I definitely think that the Cubs could win the Wild Card with what they had, but that wouldn't preclude them from making this deal when the opportunity came along. They needed a shortstop, and he's one of the best. They could afford it, and they're going for a lot more than the Wild Card. They want to win the World Series, and their games with the Cardinals have proven that they need some more consistent offense. Nomar is that.

As for his contract, both Alou and Clement will likely be gone at season's end. That will free up somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 million bucks. They will definitely be able to make a competitve offer to keep Nomar if they decide to.

I do agree that they could use some bullpen help, but the word is that the price was way too high for guys like Urbina and Mesa. Ryan Dempster is supposedly pitching very well in AAA and is healed from his surgery. They think he'll help out quite a bit in the pen, and I'm sure Hendry will watch the waiver wires to see if some teams get a little more motivated as time passes. Whatever happens, though, getting Nomar was huge and a steal for the Cubs in my opinion.

[Cards4ever]

We'll see how it ends up in October.

[Swaggs]

I wonder what the early line is on Nomar playing 2B for the Yankees next season. :)

[CentralMassHokie]

My favorite part of the whole deal is that not only did the Sox give up Nomar, they had to give up Matt Murton, a 22 year old OF who's hitting pretty well at A+ ball and is probably the Sox 3rd best position prospect.

Theo said the deal was all about defense, but defense simply isn't that important. Yeah, the team's defense sucks, but I simply don't think trading that much offense away and not improving the pitching is going to make a difference in getting the post season.

Just a head-scratcher for the Sox. Makes one wonder if there wasn't something else behind the scenes (a Henry or Lucchino edict to get something rather than nothing).

[Ragone]

Well, and to be honest.. Boston's flirtation with Arod during the last off season soured nomar to the point of where he was going to bolt anyway.. getting something for him now was probably a good idea

[Desnudo]

Yeah, Cubs keep adding age and payroll, if that's what you want, go for it.

I'm curious to see if Dougie doesn't hit how the Boston faithful will react to him and his attitude. Good move by the Twins, better then letting him be a cancer to the club and it lets Morneau play.

Kind of wish the Cards could have come up with another OF, but, they should be ok.

He's got an attitude? He'd better hit then. You have three options in Boston, play really hard and become a folk hero or hit or pitch really well and have no one care what you do until you slump.

[SirFozzie]

Ok.. time to do a 180 on this trade. This comes from the Boston Dirt Dogs a fansite tat more often then not this year, has gotten things spot on. F'n nomar..

Multiple sources have confirmed to Boston Dirt Dogs that former Red Sox shortstop Nomar Garciaparra went to see Red Sox trainers Jim Rowe and Chris Correnti four days ago and informed them that his tendonitis "was bothering him" and he would not be able to play in the crucial series in Minnesota. Garciaparra then added "I'll probably have to go on the DL in August to be ready for the end of the year."

After a full examination of Garciaparra's heel, the trainers concluded that Nomar was indeed fit to play, telling the disgruntled shortstop that the heel "looks fine to us."

Nomar then sat out Friday's game in Minnesota. On Saturday, when the trade opportunity with the Chicago Cubs heated back up, Red Sox CEO Larry Lucchino approached Nomar Garciaparra and informed him that there was a strong possibility that he would be moved to the Cubs by the 4:00pm deadline in the spirit of full disclosure. Lucchino then asked Garciaparra how his Achilles' injury was doing. Nomar replied "It's fine now."


If true, he tried to sabotage the Sox, which.. well.. boggles my mind.7

[Cards4ever]

He's got an attitude? He'd better hit then. You have three options in Boston, play really hard and become a folk hero or hit or pitch really well and have no one care what you do until you slump.


Yes, he suggested that the team play him and his .238 BA instead of Morneau, saying, "If I was the manager, I'd go with the guys that got me here", so, if the press gets on his case, he will develop a major attitude.

[sovereignstar]

Good defense in the 8th inning today, BoSox. That's how you win pennants.

[Neuqua]

Cubs 1-0 post-Nomar acquisition.

[MrIllini]

C4E, quit being a dick ;) you've gotta give the cubbies their false hopes when they get the chances j/k

great move by Hendry...I just don't see Nomar being worth 10 games *shurg* if they make the playoffs via WC, it's worth it

[Cuckoo]

C4E, quit being a dick ;) you've gotta give the cubbies their false hopes when they get the chances j/k

great move by Hendry...I just don't see Nomar being worth 10 games *shurg* if they make the playoffs via WC, it's worth it

I don't know if anyone honestly thinks he'll get them ten games. At least I don't.

[Barkeep49]

There's no way they pick up 10 games but not only do I think it gives them the best chance of winning the WC of any team, but it also puts them in a much stronger position once the playoffs start.

[Ksyrup]

I guess I'm in the minority, since I like this deal for the Sox. Even before reading the Nomar sabatoge comments above, it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the guy was playing poorly because of the whole situation, and letting it affect his relationship with his teammates. Since they weren't going to resign him, and they still have a shot at the playoffs this year, they did the right thing to deal him. Now, it would have been nice to get another starting pitcher out of the deal, but they improved their defense immensely with Doug M., and if Cabrera can revert back to his old self, they haven't lost too much at SS, either. And the offense is good enough that they can withstand a little loss if they make it up defensively and in the clubhouse, which they've done.

This was obviously a no-brainer winning deal for the Cubs, but the Sox did well, too.

[rkmsuf]

I guess I'm in the minority, since I like this deal for the Sox. Even before reading the Nomar sabatoge comments above, it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the guy was playing poorly because of the whole situation, and letting it affect his relationship with his teammates. Since they weren't going to resign him, and they still have a shot at the playoffs this year, they did the right thing to deal him. Now, it would have been nice to get another starting pitcher out of the deal, but they improved their defense immensely with Doug M., and if Cabrera can revert back to his old self, they haven't lost too much at SS, either. And the offense is good enough that they can withstand a little loss if they make it up defensively and in the clubhouse, which they've done.

This was obviously a no-brainer winning deal for the Cubs, but the Sox did well, too.

Agreed and there wasn't much of a market for Nomar.

[Cards4ever]

I don't think the Cubs are going to make up 10 games.

Here's my little cheat sheet that I put together and what it says the Cubs have to do to catch the Cards.

July 26, 2004 W L PCT GAMES LEFT
STL 67 37 0.644 58 48
CHI 57 48 0.543 57

IF PACE CONTINUES
STL 104 58 0.644
CHI 88 74 0.543

IF PACE CONTINUES WHAT WILL CHICAGO HAVE TO DO TO WIN
CHI 48 9 0.849 105 57 0.650
STL 37 21 0.644 104 58 0.644

IF CARDS PLAY .500 THE REST OF THE WAY
CHI 40 17 0.702 97 65 0.599
STL 29 29 0.500 96 66 0.593

IF CARDS PLAY .400 THE REST OF THE WAY
CHI 34 23 0.600 91 71 0.563
STL 23 35 0.400 90 72 0.557

[Ksyrup]

They don't need to catch the Cubs, unless they've got some sort of Red Sox/Yankees psychological issues to work through. In fact, if they get in through the wild card, they'll be guaranteed (due to MLB's stupid rules) of facing a weak first-round opponent, since they can't face the Cards.

So getting there as the Wild Card isn't any worse than winning the division. They'll face either the winner of the West or the winner of the East. And none of the potential winners of those two divisions is so good that you'd want to stay away from one or the other. It'll be pot luck come playoff time, since the perceived better team might end up with a worse record than the other division winner.

Bottom line - the Cubs will have as good a shot at advancing as the Cards will.

[rkmsuf]

This is for the future as well. The Cub's feel like and have been told Nomar would like to sign there.

[Cards4ever]

There's a Wild Card in baseball? No way! When did this happen?!

[Cards4ever]

I think it's great that they want to sign Nomar! Renteria wants 12 million a year, so, what does Nomar want? Come on Tribune company, lets get that Cub payroll Yankee-like!

[rkmsuf]

I think it's great that they want to sign Nomar! Renteria wants 12 million a year, so, what does Nomar want? Come on Tribune company, lets get that Cub payroll Yankee-like!

They have money to burn.

[CentralMassHokie]

they improved their defense immensely with Doug M., and if Cabrera can revert back to his old self, they haven't lost too much at SS, either. And the offense is good enough that they can withstand a little loss if they make it up defensively and in the clubhouse, which they've done.

I still think this was a poor deal for the Sox, but Theo's built up a little bit of cache with me, so I'm not going to call for his head to be examined just yet.

But, there's simply no way that, even with his solid defense, Cabrera is anywhere near Nomar. It's a huge step down. Cabrera's defense has been overrated since his back injury (he's +9 in UZR this year, I think). Nomar's injury and "psychological issues" have caused him to lose a step or two defensively, but he's not god awful yet.

Offensively, though, there's no comparison:

Cabrera
Year OPS+
1999 71
2000 68
2001 87
2002 84
2003 95 (Only season with an OBP over .340)

Garciaparra
Year OPS+
1997 123
1998 142
1999 152
2000 158
2001 114 (Less than 100 PA due to injury)
2002 132
2003 121

Even with his downward trend, Nomar's still a good hitter.
Cabrera, in his best year, is maybe a good hitter for a SS.

I've got no problem dealing Nomar. It is well known (at least around Boston) that he's never been a stellar clubhouse guy. He just goes out and gets it done. I think the team had a better shot at making the playoffs with him than they do with Cabrera and Mientkiewicz, especially since Minky isn't going to play full-time. Millar will still get a ton of playing time, since now they can't afford to carry 2 or 3 subpar offensive players (Cabrera/Reese, Minky, Kapler/Roberts) in the lineup.

If the deal had involved Clement as originally described (and later confirmed in the Gammons article), I'm all in favor of it. The upgrade from Lowe to Clement is probably worth 4 or 5 wins the rest of the way, more if you take into account the effect on the bullpen.

Maybe it'll work out. Maybe, as Epstein said at his press conference, this team is better equipped now to win in the post-season.

I just don't think they're better equipped to make the post-season.

[Ksyrup]

They can afford to lose that offense, though, if the defense improves their pitching. And Nomar was rated dead last in defense this year. No doubt it's because of the injury, but still. And Doug M.'s defensive value over Ortiz - I'm not sure you can put that in numbers. He improves the entire infield himself.

[rkmsuf]

They can afford to lose that offense, though, if the defense improves their pitching. And Nomar was rated dead last in defense this year. No doubt it's because of the injury, but still. And Doug M.'s defensive value over Ortiz - I'm not sure you can put that in numbers. He improves the entire infield himself.

If Nomar was going to play the I'm hurt today every 4 or 5 games anything is better.

[Desnudo]

I still think this was a poor deal for the Sox, but Theo's built up a little bit of cache with me, so I'm not going to call for his head to be examined just yet.

I don't think they really had a choice, so I don't blame the GM at all in this. I don't think Nomar was ever coming back to Boston, even if the whole A-Rod thing hadn't happened. That decision probably got made after their "market-adjusted" offer. The whole A-Rod thing happened in the first place because they didn't think they could resign Nomar. Since that didn't go through, it only made a bad situation worse and they were left with having to get something now or nothing later. I guess two former gold glovers is better than nothing, although going from A-Rod and Ordonez for Ramirez and Nomar to Mink...something and Cabrera for Nomar is a bit of a let down to say the least.

[Arles]

Don't forget that ESPN reporting that Nomar was probably going to go on the DL until the end of August before the trade.

So, the question becomes is having Cabrera and Mientkiewicz better than going with Ricky Guitierrez at SS and Nomar on the DL?

[vtbub]

Don't forget that ESPN reporting that Nomar was probably going to go on the DL until the end of August before the trade.

So, the question becomes is having Cabrera and Mientkiewicz better than going with Ricky Guitierrez at SS and Nomar on the DL?
Yes

[Ramzavail]

lol