400 departures .. again

[Crapshoot]

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/invboard/upload/index.php?showtopic=63521&st=0&#entry634737

ITs done for ladies...

[Franklinnoble]

Stick a fork in .400

[SirFozzie]

Wow. Just.. wow.

I guess it was a very fast, uncontrollable implosion, not a slow one.

I wish Adam/Gary good luck.. but I find it interesting that they got to keep their code.. AND with .400 without any products left, we will see the company wrap up in the near future.. probably freeing Arlie to buy the code for TPF/TPF2/TDCB/TDCB2 for a pittance. Not sure if that's true, and if so, I'm not sure how I feel about this... this smacks of a plan...

[Huckleberry]

I can't read that. Too many misuses of "myself". Can't take it anymore. AAAAAHHH!!!!

[Joe]

they should go work for Joe

[SirFozzie]

edit: (This is From Gary Gorski's "Farewell" letter)

With Arlie now gone and Joe keeping a stranglehold on
the company, we talked and we share similar feelings as Arlie - we do not
wish to help someone make money who has already moved onto his own company while no longer working for .400 SS.

However, there is a bit of difference in our situations. This company,
.400 SS, does not own our games: Total Pro Basketball or Total Extreme
Wrestling. So wherever we go, so go our products. For anyone who is
concerned, we will both continue to support our products here and wherever
we each decide to set up shop next and we have given .400 SS our consent to
continue selling TEW and TPB until future versions of our games are
released.

[Glengoyne]

this smacks of a plan...That was where I was going yesterday, when Arlie completely denied it. This is emptying the Cookie Jar to keep Joe Stalling's hands out of it.

[Ksyrup]

One good plan deserves another...

[SirFozzie]

Glengoyne: The problem is that Joe will be paid based on .400 SS's value based in March (when the split happened), not the useless shell company that's left.. I guess it's necessary, if Joe won't name a price for his 50%, but I am disappointed that it is necessary..

(conspiracy theory mode on)
Anyone want to lay odds within the next 12-24 months, that the three guys from .400 form a new company?
(conspiracy theory mode off)

[GrantDawg]

Will the last one out turn off the lights.

[Antmeister]

This is really hurting the image of Joe Stallings. This could have been broken off amicably, but it looks that someone is trying to stick it to another. I do admit, however, that I don't know all the details and it doesn't help that we never really heard from Joe for quite some time. There may be more drama then we are even aware of. Now I see why Jim decided to publish his stuff solo. It elimates unnecessary drama.

[Maple Leafs]

Would it be inappropriate for those in the sports sim community to ask Joe to stop being a bitch about this and work out a deal?

(Or is that just what we're supposed to think?)

[hoosierdude]

No, it wouldn't.

[Aylmar]

Glengoyne: The problem is that Joe will be paid based on .400 SS's value based in March (when the split happened), not the useless shell company that's left.. I guess it's necessary, if Joe won't name a price for his 50%, but I am disappointed that it is necessary..

What happens if .400 declares bankruptcy? Is it even possible for the company to do so? I don't pretend to know anything about corporate law...just a question that popped into my head after reading this thread.

[SirFozzie]

*sighs*

I guess, with .400's implosion and uncertain futures of all involved.. all you can say is..

Requiescant In Pace.. .400 Software Studios. May the games go on, long after the outside stuff's done.

[SirFozzie]

What happens if .400 declares bankruptcy? Is it even possible for the company to do so? I don't pretend to know anything about corporate law...just a question that popped into my head after reading this thread.

(note: I am not a lawyer, nor am I a financial advice guy. This is just my opinion)

If they were truly bankrupt, they could.. Joe's shares would be listed as a debt, I believe. However, .400 is somewhat an ongoing concern, they will be selling TPF/TPB/TEW/TDCB until new versions come out (as agreed by Farrah and Adam/Gary), so I don't believe they can declare bankruptcy.

[Glengoyne]

What happens if .400 declares bankruptcy? Is it even possible for the company to do so? I don't pretend to know anything about corporate law...just a question that popped into my head after reading this thread.
Yup. .400 can only pay Stallings his "fair market value" at the time of the split if they have the money. If the company is run into the ground his shares are worthless. He would be left with that company in debt to him to the tune of his "fair market value". Trying to collect a debt from a company that has no money is difficult. I know, 'cause when a company I owned a portion of went under, I was sued along with the company. Neither of us had any money.

I don't know the score with why Joe left, and what has happened since. I am thinking this is just maneuvering by Arlie and Farrah to remove Joe from the picture. I also wouldn't put too much stock into anything either of them are saying publicly. First of all, they are posturing, and framing the story from their own "legal" perspective.

I am not saying they are anything less than class people. I just think that this is all part of a "master plan". When relationships go bad within a business, it rarely ends amicably.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Pardon the intrusion here guys, but I wanted to set the record straight on a couple of things I saw in this thread.

First - Gary and Adam own their games because they are not owners of the company. Part of being an owner meant that everything you do - whether its coding, GUI work, etc. was to belong to the company. The intent was to use those funds to build the company. Contract developers like Adam, Gary, Jim and Rick essentially license their games to .400 to sell. I think Arlie didn't explain this very well in his post yesterday. But that's what he's trying to say.

Second - Gary and Adam are really victims here. They are unfortunate in that they were stuck in a situation where they had no say, no control and were essentially expected to continue operating as normal. Imagine trying to function normally every day not knowing if your company was going to be around tomorrow? Adam was worried about getting his money owed to him, Gary was worried about getting original files back. It simply wasn't fair for them to have to sit it out in an envorinment like this. When they found out Arlie was leaving, they wanted to as well.

Third - Company can't file for bankruptcy without the approval of all the members (me and Joe).

That's all for now. Sorry for butting in. :)

[sabotai]

I doubt this is all just one big plan to reform a new company under different leadership. Besides, it's not .400 that Joe owns 50% of, it's Big Fat Cat LLC (I think, anyway). So even if they did form a new company, if they did it under their parent corperation, Joe would still be a 50% owner.

I think a valuable lesson has been learned. We all can't make Championship Manager. That is the only sport sim I have ever seen on a sales chart. The rest of us, I think for the time being, would best be served by going solo.

[GrantDawg]

Thanks for the clarification, Farrah. I'm sorry for what your dealing with.

[GrantDawg]

I doubt this is all just one big plan to reform a new company under different leadership. Besides, it's not .400 that Joe owns 50% of, it's Big Fat Cat LLC (I think, anyway). So even if they did form a new company, if they did it under their parent corperation, Joe would still be a 50% owner.

I think a valuable lesson has been learned. We all can't make Championship Manager. That is the only sport sim I have ever seen on a sales chart. The rest of us, I think for the time being, would best be served by going solo.

I really don't think that is the lesson at all. The lesson is be carefull who you make a deal with. This wasn't a case where this company couldn't make money (it could have and should have). The problems were honesty and trust.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Thanks for the clarification, Farrah. I'm sorry for what your dealing with.

No need to be sorry. We chose this path, we must deal with its consequences whether it means giving up Arlie's code, having the suspicions of some huge plot to screw Joe, or just one more black mark against Arlie. We brought this on ourselves with our choices.

We're learning a very valuable lesson. An expensive one, but valuable. Sabotai is right - going solo probably is the best option. Unless you have enough cash to pay the lawyers. :)

[sabotai]

Note to self: Do not hastily write short replies on issues when you want to get back to shooting heads off zombies in Doom 3.

Let me clarify because what I wanted to say was much longer, but I was in a rush. I wasn't really talking about money. I was basically agreeing with you. I'm sure Joe seemed like a good guy to Arlie and Farrah at the start of this. And so they grouped with him and here we are. The best way to be careful with who you make a deal with is to just not make deals at all and stay solo.

The money comment was more in line with them having enough to force Joe to sell. Farrah said in another post that they were burning money in legal fees trying to force him to. If they had a lot more, then itd probably be easier. They could easily afford the legal fees or just offer Joe a pile of money and say "Take this, go away".

So yes, I agree. Be careful who you deal with. Best way is to just stay solo. When you have the money to be able to deal with unexpected things that come up, then branch out. Don't branch before the money's there.

EDIT: If I had waited for Farrah's response, I could have been killing zombies sooner. :D

[Bee]

or just one more black mark against Arlie. We brought this on ourselves with our choices.


I don't think the community will hold Arlie responsible for this in any way, shape or form. It's a tough situation to be in and I think all of us feel that Arlie has handled himself very professionally.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

I don't think the community will hold Arlie responsible for this in any way, shape or form. It's a tough situation to be in and I think all of us feel that Arlie has handled himself very professionally.

That will be good news to Arlie. If anyone needs to hold someone responsible, hold me responsible. I take full responsibilty. I made the final call to fire Joe.

Arlie just wants to write games, not deal with any of this crap.

[Samdari]

Glengoyne: The problem is that Joe will be paid based on .400 SS's value based in March (when the split happened), not the useless shell company that's left.. I guess it's necessary, if Joe won't name a price for his 50%, but I am disappointed that it is necessary..

(conspiracy theory mode on)
Anyone want to lay odds within the next 12-24 months, that the three guys from .400 form a new company?
(conspiracy theory mode off)

Joe will be paid from what, and for what? There is no company any more to sell, the only asset is remaining sales of TPF and TDCB. There will be no more new products, there are no developers. I guess a couple half finished games might be worth something, but to who?

And the Gary/Adam/Arlie partnership looks good based on all the nice things they said about each other. But, then again, I bet at one point Arlie trusted Joe and counted him as a supportive partner.

[General Mike]

Damn you Joe Stallings, Damn you to hell! :mad:

[jbmagic]

That will be good news to Arlie. If anyone needs to hold someone responsible, hold me responsible. I take full responsibilty. I made the final call to fire Joe.

Arlie just wants to write games, not deal with any of this crap.


why was joe fire?

[Antmeister]

That will be good news to Arlie. If anyone needs to hold someone responsible, hold me responsible. I take full responsibilty. I made the final call to fire Joe.

Arlie just wants to write games, not deal with any of this crap.

While no one knows the total picture of how everything went down, it may have been the best decision. Since I could only go on some rumors and read between the lines as best I could, the decision seemed inevitable because his presence would have hurt the company in the future anyways.

I feel for you guys because the company seemed to be slowly growing into a viable company with programmers that just love games. While there were a number of growing pains, I was still looking forward to TDCB and see what would have happed to TPF.

Well whatever happens, this experience is going to make you guys a force in the future. You both seem quite capable of doing good things in the text sim community. While it looks as things aren't going to end amicably, I hope you guys come out in top in the future and this is long forgotten.

[Dutch]

Well, I guess it could be worse, but thankfully you guys still have your minds, your health, your creativity, and hopefully your desire.

Good luck in the future.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

why was joe fire?


I very much want to answer this, becuase this has been the biggest source of speculation. But it wouldn't be such a good idea if I'm trying to get a deal done with him, right? I think I've already walked a pretty thin line with what has been said so far.

But I will say this, he is a 50% owner - the employment agreements have very specific, very serious reasons for termination. I wouldn't have had the ability to fire him had it been simply a case of stealing office supplies, or even the review fixing wouldn't have been enough (which I think is very serious BTW would have been enough for me to submit my resignation if I hadn't already terminated him).

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Dola -

In the spirit of full disclosure, he adamantly denies he did anything wrong, and that I'm just on a power trip trying to push him out of the company so I can have it all myself.

[Joe]

I'm curious, how many copies of a text sim generally sell? I can't believe its that lucrative of a business for Joe to hold out and not make a deal?

[Maple Leafs]

... unless it's just personal at this point.

[Glengoyne]

That will be good news to Arlie. If anyone needs to hold someone responsible, hold me responsible. I take full responsibilty. I made the final call to fire Joe.

Arlie just wants to write games, not deal with any of this crap.I just wanted to be clear. While I think you guys are taking these steps to rid yourselves of Joe, I am not saying any of you deserve "black marks". I don't know what happened, so I say the same about Joe.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

I just wanted to be clear. While I think you guys are taking these steps to rid yourselves of Joe, I am not saying any of you deserve "black marks". I don't know what happened, so I say the same about Joe.

Of course Glen, and that's totally fair. I was just trying to cover the range of responses I'd seen. Someone even asked if Arlie and I were getting divorced, and I was getting the company.

He's only had to spend one night in the guest room throughout all this mess, so no divorce today. :)

[sabotai]

He's only had to spend one night in the guest room throughout all this mess, so no divorce today. :)

Which had nothing to do with this whole business. She just caught Arlie looking at Katie Holmes in a certain way and into the guess room he went.

:D

[VPI97]

I don't think the community will hold Arlie responsible for this in any way, shape or form. It's a tough situation to be in and I think all of us feel that Arlie has handled himself very professionally.Ditto. I bought CAD from Arlie prior to .400, but I had been wary of anything involving Joe Stallings. I await Arlie's future projects with anticipation.

[Gary Gorski]

Ok while there is a break in the action here I just want to say thanks to the people who have wished me well and thanks to Farrah for trying to explain the situation that Adam, I, Rick and Jim were/are in as developers. It wasn't a good one over the past five months and we stuck it out as long as we could. I don't need to go into the details and don't have a desire to either - I'm just thankful for the opportunity to move on and I hope you all will continue to support the developers who worked for .400 SS wherever they may go to sell their products.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Which had nothing to do with this whole business. She just caught Arlie looking at Katie Holmes in a certain way and into the guess room he went.

:D

No, Nikki Cox is more his style. He payed too much attention to Las Vegas on NBC. Gosh, can't that girl ever put her boobs away? :p

[gstelmack]

No, Nikki Cox is more his style. Mmmmm, Nikki Cox (and yes, my wife knows). This dates back to her days on "Happily Married", a great show that we miss dearly.

[kingfc22]

Mmmmm, Nikki Cox.
:D:D:D:D:D

[Joe]

Nikki Cox got nothin on Condi Rice

[kcchief19]

I'm not sure what to say. There has been a lot of acrimony in the past, and I was as big a critic of .400 as anyone, but I hate to see any independent developer -- especially a sport sim developer -- goe through something like this. I have everyone lands on their feet and is better for the experience.

There's been a lot of drama throughout this whole soap opera -- may Arlie and Farrah should write a book.

[druez]

Ditto. I bought CAD from Arlie prior to .400, but I had been wary of anything involving Joe Stallings. I await Arlie's future projects with anticipation.


Part of me liked CAD more then TD. CAD was a great game especially for its time...

[The_herd]

Part of me liked CAD more then TD. CAD was a great game especially for its time...

I really liked CAD. Thought it was a pretty nice game. I never thought TD took a big enough step forward. After playing CAD and hearing about TDCB, I was expecting a near perfect college basketball sim and I can't blame Arlie for not making one. My own expectaions were too high.

TPB was a strange for me. I loved just about everything but the actual sim engine. The salary cap was nailed perfectly, which is difficult to do with an NBA sim. Unfortunately, I just couldn't get into it.

TPF was a game that deserved a better fate on this forum than it got. It was doomed here after the launch was boggled. The game turned out to be very good though, too bad there are a whole lot of people that didn't give it a try, or tried it early and missed out on the game it became.

Adam's games are really good. The freeware wrestling game hooked me for about a month (pretty good value). If you were ever in your life interested in professional wrestling its worth a look. I hadn't watched 5 minutes of wrestling in 10 years before DLing EWC.

The games are good and I'm sure their audiences will follow wherever they end up. In a sad sort of way, parting with .400 may actually pick up sales for these games by bringing back some customers that just got sick of the mess that turned out over there.

[JeeberD]

Mmmmm, Nikki Cox (and yes, my wife knows). This dates back to her days on "Happily Married", a great show that we miss dearly.

Unhappily Ever After...

I now have a newfound respect for Arlie... :)