1st and Ten Football - Tabletop game - Has anyone played it?

[bossfan2000]

Thanks to a thread on this board a couple of months ago about table top sports gaming, i found some good forum/sites. I ran across a FREE tabletop football game called 1st and Ten. You can use Excel to help play the game, and it comes with all of the NFL seasons and lots of college teams too.

I spent a couple hours over the weekend reading the rules, and though the first read made the game sound complicated, a second read made me think it actually sounds pretty cool. It has a solo defense system built in so you can play by yourself (though the system does adjust itself based on the down, yardage, and offense type of the team you are playing)..

I hope to play my first game tonight or tomorrow, but was wondering if anyone here had played it. If so, what do you think? From the other forums, it sounds statistically really accurate..but wanted someone opinions from the folks here.

Here is a link to the website for the game...

http://www.tabletopsportsgames.homestead.com/TableTopSportsGames.html

-jeff

[Wolfpack]

The guy who created that game is actually working with someone to develop a computer version based on that game called, appropriately enough, "Second and Ten". I think he'll be charging for that release, though, rather than giving it away.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Thanks to a thread on this board a couple of months ago about table top sports gaming, i found some good forum/sites. I ran across a FREE tabletop football game called 1st and Ten. You can use Excel to help play the game, and it comes with all of the NFL seasons and lots of college teams too.

I spent a couple hours over the weekend reading the rules, and though the first read made the game sound complicated, a second read made me think it actually sounds pretty cool. It has a solo defense system built in so you can play by yourself (though the system does adjust itself based on the down, yardage, and offense type of the team you are playing)..

I hope to play my first game tonight or tomorrow, but was wondering if anyone here had played it. If so, what do you think? From the other forums, it sounds statistically really accurate..but wanted someone opinions from the folks here.

Here is a link to the website for the game...

http://www.tabletopsportsgames.homestead.com/TableTopSportsGames.html

-jeff

I haven't played it, although I know it's very highly regarded by those who do.
Just too damned complicated for me, I never came close to understanding it.

BTW, you might be interested to know that Second and Ten was released earlier this week. That's the computer translation of the same engine (with a few tweaks).
You should be able to find it at: http://www.roogames.co.uk/

Be forewarned, it's awfully pricey IMO.

[bossfan2000]

yeah, i've read about the computer version...meant to mention it just got released yesterday. They are supposed to release a demo i believe. i think the website is roogames.co.uk, but not sure.

After trying Puresim, FOF, OOTP, i think i have come to the conclusion that i really like rolling the dice and holding the cards when i play the sports games. Having the computer do everything takes something out of the enjoyment for me.

Thanks to the thread here a couple months ago, i also found Replay Baseball..and i gotta say it blows Strat-o-matic out of the water (to me, anyway)..

-jeff

[JonInMiddleGA]

FWIW, if you're okay with the complexity of 1st&10, be sure to check out Above the Rim basketball from (IIRC) the same developer. Arguably, it may be even more highly regarded than its football counterpart.

[SirFozzie]

Try Second Season by Plaay games (www.plaay.com) Really fun tabletop football and dice game :D

(I have their football and roller derby games)

[bossfan2000]

Try Second Season by Plaay games (www.plaay.com) Really fun tabletop football and dice game :D

(I have their football and roller derby games)

Thanks Sir Fozzie. I had read about that one and the other game by 4th Street software too. I was trying to decide which of the 3 to try. For now, I want to try 1st and Ten since its free and has lot of easily available teams.

How does Second Season play solitaire? Is there a defensive scheme for solo built in, so that you just pick the offensive plays for each team? Also, from checking the website yesterday, it seems like each player is only rated in 2 categories, with just a range of 3 for each rating (0,1,2). I was wondering how it could product realistic results?

I've read that 4th Street is good, but even more compicated then 1st and Ten..

thanks for the discussion and pointers, too, btw...

-jeff

[vtbub]

ATR is an excellent game and IMHO much easier than FaT.

I taught myself FaT, and while probably not playing 100% correctly, it is quite enjoyable and seems realistic.

[threadjack] Played the first two games of the NBA finals using Above the Rim, and the Pistons crusied easily.

[bossfan2000]

ATR is an excellent game and IMHO much easier than FaT.

I taught myself FaT, and while probably not playing 100% correctly, it is quite enjoyable and seems realistic.

[threadjack] Played the first two games of the NBA finals using Above the Rim, and the Pistons crusied easily.

Have you tried AtR with any of the college teams? I'm not a huge basketball fan, but i might try it when the season rolls around...i've heard lots of good stuff about it..

-j

[vtbub]

Yes, I have. I think you really need to know college hoops and teams to get the best sense of it playing like real life.

I haven't played the women's version yet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

(I have their football and roller derby games)

Roller Rumble rocks.

[SirFozzie]

How does Second Season play solitaire? Is there a defensive scheme for solo built in, so that you just pick the offensive plays for each team? Also, from checking the website yesterday, it seems like each player is only rated in 2 categories, with just a range of 3 for each rating (0,1,2). I was wondering how it could product realistic results?

Defensive system: There's a variant out there with an automated defense playcall system, but it's not really standard

There's really a range of ratings: 0+, 1, 1-, 1+ 2, 2- for both rushing and passing..

0=Inferior
1= Average
2= Superior

The - and +'s come into play when a team enters the opposing side of the field.. and either add one or subtract one to the rating.... (useful for teams that generate a lot of yardage, but seem to choke when points are on the line..)

When you determine the play (say you chose a Inside Run, and the Defense Roll indicated a blitz), the roll determines the "key player" for a play. You then compare their rating to the one mentioned in the play, and depending on the rating, apply the result.

For example (I don't have the play book with me here).. Inside Run vs Blitz defense, and the roll is 36 (it's two d6, with one high, one low)

36.. The Key Player is the Left Guard.. if he has a run rating of 2.. play is "Guard seals off rusher, Running back surges through line for 6 yds", while if he was just a 1 or a 0.. play would be "Running back disappears into the line, just gets back to the line of scrimmage"

Receivers and rushers are rated both on # of allowed carries/catches per game, and average yards as well..

Game plays very quickly, and I like it.. I got the XFL set for shits and giggles :D

[SirFozzie]

Roller Rumble rocks.

Agreed. The Derby still lives with Roller Rumble.. which version do you prefer.. the old school style, or the "RollerJam" high scoring version?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Agreed. The Derby still lives with Roller Rumble.. which version do you prefer.. the old school style, or the "RollerJam" high scoring version?

Old School baby, old school all the way.
(Gee, I bet that's a real shocker coming from me, huh? ;) )

The only thing that always seems to strike me as being "wrong" is the reduced value of pivots in the FAC system. So I often swing pivots through the jammer rotation, just to try to give them some additional impact.

[SirFozzie]

One thing I do to emphasize pivots is that I created a system to do match races to "break the tie" in games that end tied.. and the pivots are the ones who do it.. the pivot also takes the last jam for any period.

[sabotai]

1st And Ten is one of those games I've been waiting to get into. Above the Rim too. I just haven't had time. Mainly because I'm looking for weays to do historic recreations, and FOF and TPF obviously wouldn't work. :)

(First things first, I tried playing the games on my PC, but it's a pain to keep switching between different Word documents and what-not. I need a printer. :) )

[mattwakeman]

Second and ten demo is now available at http://www.roogames.co.uk/SATDemo.html

[PsychoCop]

can you guys give additional links to where i can download these tabletop games? really looking to get into these...

[JonInMiddleGA]

can you guys give additional links to where i can download these tabletop games? really looking to get into these...

Some of these are freebies that you can d'load, others are only available for purchase, but let's see what I can do here:

First and Ten & Above the Rim are freebies, can both be d'loaded from the designer's website at http://www.tabletopsportsgames.homestead.com/TableTopSportsGames.html

You'll find the new retail computer version of FAT, called Second and Ten, at
http://www.roogames.co.uk\sat.html/
(be sure to check out the other computer products from Roogames)

Roller Rumble, Second Season, Face To the Mat (pro wrestling) are all retail games available at www.plaay.com

That's most of the ones mentioned in this thread so far.

As for others games in the genre ...

You'll find more free downloads than you could play in a lifetime at
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.php
There's also a wide assortment of add-ons, user mods, etc. for retail tabletop sports games on the site as well. Just hit the "Downloads" section & have a blast (just make sure you're printer is well stocked on ink ;) )

For hockey and golf, I highly recommend Decisive Action Sports
http://www.sports-only.com/users/decisivegames/

There's tennis, soccer, golf, and sumo wrestling for sale at
http://www.timetravelgames.com/

There's football, baseball, basketball, horse racing for sale at
http://www.members.tripod.com/newaction/

I also highly recommend a couple of forums for discussion, info, reviews, dynasty reports, etc
http://forums.delphiforums.com/seasonspast/start
http://forums.delphiforums.com/tabletopsports/start

Then there's more links than you can shake a stick at to be found at
http://www.geocities.com/garyco_77521/simlinks.html

That ought to get you started pretty well (especially the downloads section at Jeff Downey's site), any specific sports, questions, etc., just throw 'em out there & we can probably find you an answer.

[bossfan2000]

I took a shot at playing First and Ten last night. I was really slow, because i was reading the instructions before and after every play to make sure i got everything right. I only played 5 minutes of game time (2003 Pitt at 2003 Atlanta). Problem was i was watching the Braves lose while trying to play..think I spend 90 minutes on those 5 minutes of the 1st qtr. I know a full game can be played in around 2hrs or so, once the rules are learned..but its tough while you are still figuring things out.

I do think its gonna be a lot of fun once i get the hang of it. I would recommend the game from the little bit i know so far. but, be prepared to invest some time up front getting the hang of it.

I'm just thankful someone started that tabletop thread a couple months ago..i didnt know all this great stuff was out there..

-jeff

[PsychoCop]

Some of these are freebies that you can d'load, others are only available for purchase, but let's see what I can do here:

First and Ten & Above the Rim are freebies, can both be d'loaded from the designer's website at http://www.tabletopsportsgames.homestead.com/TableTopSportsGames.html

You'll find the new retail computer version of FAT, called Second and Ten, at
http://www.roogames.co.uk\sat.html/
(be sure to check out the other computer products from Roogames)

Roller Rumble, Second Season, Face To the Mat (pro wrestling) are all retail games available at www.plaay.com

That's most of the ones mentioned in this thread so far.

As for others games in the genre ...

You'll find more free downloads than you could play in a lifetime at
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/index.php
There's also a wide assortment of add-ons, user mods, etc. for retail tabletop sports games on the site as well. Just hit the "Downloads" section & have a blast (just make sure you're printer is well stocked on ink ;) )

For hockey and golf, I highly recommend Decisive Action Sports
http://www.sports-only.com/users/decisivegames/

There's tennis, soccer, golf, and sumo wrestling for sale at
http://www.timetravelgames.com/

There's football, baseball, basketball, horse racing for sale at
http://www.members.tripod.com/newaction/

I also highly recommend a couple of forums for discussion, info, reviews, dynasty reports, etc
http://forums.delphiforums.com/seasonspast/start
http://forums.delphiforums.com/tabletopsports/start

Then there's more links than you can shake a stick at to be found at
http://www.geocities.com/garyco_77521/simlinks.html

That ought to get you started pretty well (especially the downloads section at Jeff Downey's site), any specific sports, questions, etc., just throw 'em out there & we can probably find you an answer.

Wow. thanks a lot Jon! :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wow. thanks a lot Jon! :)

You're more than welcome. I've gotten countless hours of enjoyment from the tabletop genre since re-discovering it in the past couple of years, and I've gotten an awful lot of help from other gamers along the way. I'm very happy
to have an opportunity to "pay it forward" with at least some of that info.

To be honest, I could have (any maybe should have) added another half-dozen links to that list, but didn't want to go too far overboard. Perhaps the best retail company I didn't mention might be Lambourne Games (http://www.sportsgameshop.com/), a British company that has cricket, track & field, road racing and other sports in their product lines. Computer versions of some of their games have been subsequently produced by the aforementioned Roogames. And the Lambourne line is now continued under license by
Ozwat Games (http://www.owzatgames.com/). I can't count the number of positive reports I've seen from customers of Ozwat, they're pretty much marvelous AFAIK.

Among the freebies at Jeff Downey's site, the hottest thing going in the past few months seems to be Pairadice Hockey, with new seasons being added by users/the designer all the time. It's had the best buzz I've seen for any tabletop game in at least a couple of years, I just haven't had the time to get into it but it is definitely worth highlighting here IMO.

[Philliesfan980]

General question regarding tabletop games that are mentioned above...

How does the Solo game play? Since there is no "AI" , how do the solo gamers manage to play a fun "satisfying" game? I doubt any of my mid-20's, button mashing, friends are going to be up for any of the above games.

I used to love to play strat-o in the mid-late 80's when I was a kid, but often had to force myself to bring in that tough lefty setup man against my top hitting left handed batter. I suppose that there are still the same problems.

Not sure if I made alot of sense there, but I'm hoping that someone knows how I feel :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

How does the Solo game play? Since there is no "AI" , how do the solo gamers manage to play a fun "satisfying" game? I doubt any of my mid-20's, button mashing, friends are going to be up for any of the above games.

I used to love to play strat-o in the mid-late 80's when I was a kid, but often had to force myself to bring in that tough lefty setup man against my top hitting left handed batter. I suppose that there are still the same problems.

Not sure if I made alot of sense there, but I'm hoping that someone knows how I feel :)

There's several different schools of thought on this subject, and several different approaches.

Many games in the tabletop arena are more "replay" than "career" oriented.
APBA, Strat, etc., even moreso when you get to games like DiamondMind, Replay Baseball, Replay Basketball, etc. Those tend to have player usage limitations that, to varying degrees, serve to make some of the strategic decisions you're talking about.

Then there's another segment of games that have various "strategy" or "coach" or similar rolls that determine at least one side of the decisions in a contest. Frequently, these may be "user add-ons" or "optional" rules that aren't neccessarily from the designer/developer. Depending upon the game & the gamer, these work pretty well to not very well.

And there's a significant portion of the niche that is "abstracted" and is final result oriented, not play-by-play or event-by-event oriented. These are often referred to as "Quick Play" games (although not many of the ones we've talked about in this thread fall into that category, they're still a sizable niche-within-the-niche overall). The degree of abstraction renders strategy largely moot -- the final result is "the thing", not "how we got there". A good example of this is a game like UltraQuick Boxing that is used for my Heavyweight Boxing campaign in the Dynasty forum here.

On the whole, the tabletop genre runs the gamut of user-influence on the outcome from high to non-existent. My own gaming preference runs toward the latter, being very outcome oriented, so I'm probably not anywhere near an expert on the subject of dealing with strategic elements that a lot of other TTG'ers would be.

And then there's a point that seems relevant here concerning the nature of a lot of the older/oldest tabletop games -- they were designed to be played head-to-head moreso than solo. That kind of takes care of the strategy issue on those games.

I believe your pretty much on-target with your assessment about "button-pushers" -- generally speaking, they aren't particularly likely to be
an audience that will find this genre appealing. There are exceptions, but that's a fair generality IMO.

You've asked a very good question, and you might be interested to know that it's also one of the most often discussed topics in the tabletop community too. Get a set of APAB'ers or SOM'ers to talk about how to handle things like stealing bases or bunting or bullpen usage and you'll see pretty quickly how many opinions there are on the subject of "the right way to do it" there are ;)

[Philliesfan980]

There's several different schools of thought on this subject, and several different approaches.

Many games in the tabletop arena are more "replay" than "career" oriented.
APBA, Strat, etc., even moreso when you get to games like DiamondMind, Replay Baseball, Replay Basketball, etc. Those tend to have player usage limitations that, to varying degrees, serve to make some of the strategic decisions you're talking about.

Then there's another segment of games that have various "strategy" or "coach" or similar rolls that determine at least one side of the decisions in a contest. Frequently, these may be "user add-ons" or "optional" rules that aren't neccessarily from the designer/developer. Depending upon the game & the gamer, these work pretty well to not very well.

And there's a significant portion of the niche that is "abstracted" and is final result oriented, not play-by-play or event-by-event oriented. These are often referred to as "Quick Play" games (although not many of the ones we've talked about in this thread fall into that category, they're still a sizable niche-within-the-niche overall). The degree of abstraction renders strategy largely moot -- the final result is "the thing", not "how we got there". A good example of this is a game like UltraQuick Boxing that is used for my Heavyweight Boxing campaign in the Dynasty forum here.

On the whole, the tabletop genre runs the gamut of user-influence on the outcome from high to non-existent. My own gaming preference runs toward the latter, being very outcome oriented, so I'm probably not anywhere near an expert on the subject of dealing with strategic elements that a lot of other TTG'ers would be.

And then there's a point that seems relevant here concerning the nature of a lot of the older/oldest tabletop games -- they were designed to be played head-to-head moreso than solo. That kind of takes care of the strategy issue on those games.

I believe your pretty much on-target with your assessment about "button-pushers" -- generally speaking, they aren't particularly likely to be
an audience that will find this genre appealing. There are exceptions, but that's a fair generality IMO.

You've asked a very good question, and you might be interested to know that it's also one of the most often discussed topics in the tabletop community too. Get a set of APAB'ers or SOM'ers to talk about how to handle things like stealing bases or bunting or bullpen usage and you'll see pretty quickly how many opinions there are on the subject of "the right way to do it" there are ;)

Thanks for the well thought out response. My interest is gaining every day. After I'm done studying for the CPA exam, I'll really look into this at a deeper level (Don't need any distractions now!).

Do you keep stats, or are you more of a "one game" type of person? Any useful utils/templates for keeping stats?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you keep stats, or are you more of a "one game" type of person? Any useful utils/templates for keeping stats?

I'm almost exclusively a "career" mode gamer. And you might be able to strike the word "almost" from that sentence -- with the exception of playtesting, learning my way through the rules, running a random game just to get comfortable with the flow, etc., I honestly can't remember when I've just played a game/match/contest strictly for the sake of playing it.

That's what actually keeps my games-played total relatively low compared to some other gamers -- if I don't keep stats, have cumulative results/stats, etc., I really don't have much interest in playing. And with some games, the recordkeeping takes as much or more time than the actual playing, which slows things down considerably.

Utils/templates/etc are usually game-specific, some have 'em out there, some don't. The vast majority of my stuff is kept in one or more Excel templates/files that I design specifically for each need as it comes up.

[bossfan2000]

General question regarding tabletop games that are mentioned above...

How does the Solo game play? Since there is no "AI" , how do the solo gamers manage to play a fun "satisfying" game? I doubt any of my mid-20's, button mashing, friends are going to be up for any of the above games.

I used to love to play strat-o in the mid-late 80's when I was a kid, but often had to force myself to bring in that tough lefty setup man against my top hitting left handed batter. I suppose that there are still the same problems.

Not sure if I made alot of sense there, but I'm hoping that someone knows how I feel :)


yeah...i know exactly how you feel. I grew up playing strat too. If you are looking for a baseball game that is a little easier to play solo...check out Replay Baseball. It has some solo stuff built in...it has its own inury system, and even its own base stealing system built into the ratings, so you dont have to make that decision. Also, someone created a tremendous spreadsheet that has all the info you would need to replay a season. For every game and every team, it has the batting order, starting pitcher, opponent, etc...more than i can list. The really amazing thing is he fit each team on the front and back of one sheet! My description probably isnt doing it justice; you would have to see it to believe it. I was replaying the 2003 braves, and using that sheet, i could use the exact lineup that was played for each game..that way i didnt have to decide who to sit and all that stuff..If you are interested in a replay of team/season..i couldnt recommend it highly enough..

Also for Replay Baseball (and other sims i would imagine should work) someone created a spreadsheet utility to keep stats. I still like doing the stats by hand. Using the utility, i could input those stats into the stat keeping worksheet using a shorthand...some adding the manual scoresheet into the computer for stats took only 5 minutes..

If any of that interests you, let me know and i can post some links to these things..

-jeff

[JonInMiddleGA]

Some unhappy news from the tabletop games front

http://plaay.com/annxmt.html
Keith Avallone, owner of PLAAY.com

After giving it much thought, I've decided to close PLAAY.com. It's time for me to focus my energies on other things!

I would like to thank everyone for their support, encouragement and enthusiasm for the various games I've created over the past five years.

I do have some GOOD news--Pete Ventura of Replay Games has agreed to continue to offer SECOND SEASON Pro Football Game through his company! The game, and all the currently available seasons, will continue to be made available through REPLAY. Pete has also expressed an interest in creating and offering new football seasons for the game, and I've agreed to assist him where possible.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that PLAAY.com might someday return to the web. In the meantime, I'm excited that the PLAAYgame community will continue on under new management! Discussion will continue at the PLAAYgames forum on Delphi, and I'll do what I can to provide information and assistance.

In the words of Ron Arnst--"Keep 'em rolling!"

Keith's Roller Rumble & Face to the Mat were two of the best purchases I've made in the past couple of years, I really hate to see them go.

[Tekneek]

Unfortunately, I decided to go looking for the plaay.com games a bit too late.

I've just recently downloaded and printed out the 2003-04 AHL and NHL rosters, plus World Cup, for use with Pairadice hockey. I'd love to print out the 2002-03 ones, but afraid the printers aren't up to it (I should get someone to reveal the location and name of the color printers here at work...)... My first project is to play out the 2004 World Cup, but run it differently than the real one (ie, no split into NA and Euro pools...everyone play in the same group). My first test game, to get used to the game/rules/etc, was US vs Canada and the Americans won 6-1...Brodeur was brutal, managing just 16 saves on 22 shots.

[CraigSca]

BTW, Plaay.com's football game (Second Season) has been taken over by Pete Ventura of Replay Baseball (www.replaybb.com (http://www.replaybb.com)).

Pete is definitely one of the good guys in the business, so if you're looking for tabletop baseball, football or basketball, give the website a try. You'd be amazed at how quickly he ships :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just echoing CraigSca's comments about Pete Ventura a bit -- I haven't even bought from the guy (I'm not a Replay devotee) and yet I'm still impressed by his reputation in the community.

Also, speaking of good guys in the genre, I should probably mention that Bruce Kish (Decisive-Action Sports) is offering a Christmas gift ... for all customers who purchased a purchased the Classic Hockey 2003 update or a new Classic Hockey set (excluding Starter Edition) from Feb. 7, 2003 (which happens to coincide with my call-up to active duty) through today. Last year, we revised the formulas for offense and defense starting with the 2002-03 season and introduced half-goal ratings for greater accuracy. I have finished the revisions for all prior years in the game, including Pro and Olympic. You will soon be receiving the new charts in the mail as a "Thank You" for supporting our company while I was in Kuwait. The new charts will be standard with all future purchases, including updates for earlier purchases.

Also, the annual update for Classic Golf is nearly ready, they're finishing up the 04 Ryder Cup and 04 European Tour before releasing it for sale next week. The Classic Hockey 2003-04 updates for teams and the Box Score Generator are now available: Item # BOX04 $9.95.

Anybody looking for those should try the new website at
http://decisiveactionsports.tabletop-sports.com/

[bbo]

Hey guys. I believe I was the guy who posted when we released our football game. We just released our hockey game last weekend. Here is a link to our site if you would like to take a look.

http://home.comcast.net/~dicegames/
Brian

[sabotai]

I just bought Second Season from Replay Games. I thought it'd be awhile, but I placed the order late last week and it came today.

So far I've been having fun with it. I got the 2003 season and started a game between Carolina and New England (recreating last year's Super Bowl). It took me almost 2 hours to do the first quarter, but I'm sure over an hour of that was me just getting used to the game. So far it's been pretty interesting. Carolina drived the field (with the help of a defensive penelty giving them the 1st down on a 3rd and long) only to have it stall at the 1 yard line and had to settle for a short FG. New England comes back, throws a pass inside the 10 yard line of Carolina but is called for Holding that pushes them back. Brady then throws 3 incomplete passes and Vinatieri barely makes a 49 yard FG.

Carolina then goes 3 and out. On New England's 2nd play of the next drive, Troy Brown breaks one and goes 58 yards for the TD. Another 3 and out for Carolina, but their defense comes up big. Grant picks off Brady near mid field and as the 1st quarter came to an end, Carolina had gotten just inside New England's 35 yard line.

Almost 2 hours of play reduced to 2 short paragraphs. It was fun though. :)

[SirFozzie]

GRINS.. sab.. we really got make a SS Client to play over the net, I feel like it's a very good and detailed game!

Tell me how it turns out :)

[sabotai]

In the second quarter, Kasey attempted a 44 yard FG which was blocked and returned all the way to the Carolina 12 yard line. 3 plays later, New England takes a 17-3 lead. Near the end of the half, Delhomme gets picked off and on the last play of the half, Vinateri tried a 44 yard FG but the snap was bad and the half ended 17-3

The 3rd started with a couple of 3 and outs until New Englad had another bad snap, this time on a punt. Carolina got in range for another Kasey FG to make it 17-6 New England. The Patriots answer right back with a 25 yard TD pass from Brady to Grahem to make it 24-6. After that, Carolina put together a 10 yard drive that ended with Kasey hitting a long 49 yard FG to make it 24-9. and the half ended on the next drive, New England at their own 40 yard line.

The Patriots get to the Carolina 38 yard line and punt. Carolina gets another drive going and Davis runs in from 12 yards to make it 24-16 New England. New England again gets into Carolina territory but can't get passed the 40 yardline and pin Carolina at the 15. Carolina gets the ball into New England territory and Davis fumbles the ball! New England gets the ball, again stall out just inside the Carolina 40 and this time Carolina has to start from the 10.

A beautiful drive ensued, aided at least twice by Delhomme's "game on the line" attribute, and the get to the New England 14 yard line. They have 2 chances. The first goes incomplete and the second the Smith goes for just 11 yards, tackled 3 short of the endzone and the game ends.

Carolina 16
New England 24

[Wolfpack]

It's a good game (Second Season, that is), but it's definitely a little time-consuming, especially if you are trying in any remote way to maintain stats. The chart flipping tends to get tedious unless you are in one of those "breakaway" situations where the anticipation of something big occurs.

I got it back in 2002 and replayed a 2001 playoff game between the Jets and Raiders. That was a wild contest because the Raiders were driving for a killing score late when Gannon coughed up the ball around the Jet 10 and James Farrior returned it all the way for a touchdown to put the Jets ahead. The Raiders executed a great two-minute drill, though, and got into range for a tying field goal to force OT. In the OT, Charlie Garner busted up the middle from 40 yards out to win the game. Good stuff.

[JonInMiddleGA]

re: Second Season

Not sure if this will be of use to anyone or not, but just in case ... be sure to check the downloads section at http://www.tabletop-sports.com (aka Jeff Downey's site). There are at least 50 home-brewed teams available there, as well as several scoresheet variations that might help with some of the stat maintenance issue.
(or might not, I haven't played SS nor tried these sheets)

[sabotai]

Yeah, I downloaded all of the SS downloads from there. I also got the guide that explains how to rate the teams yourself.

Yeah, it's pretty time consuming. I've gotten the hang of it and each quarter doesn't take me nearly as long as the first one did, but it still takes awhile. No big though, I don't play table-top games to sim sports matches/games dozens at a time. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I got a pretty good tip from someone today & thought I ought to pay it forward.
http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/

This is not brain surgery. It's not very deep, there's nary a grognard in sight gathered around this one. What it does appear to have going for it is a simple design that's very playable by a lot of ages (I'm seeing a good father-son game here), and some instant gratification potential thanks to a download-and-print-yourself option for the relevant cards, charts, etc. The price is right too, at least on the .pdf version, just $4.95 to $6.95 per card set (All-Time teams, 2004 MLB, All-Time Slugger Teams, etc). And you can custom order any team from the past 100+ years of MLB & they'll email you those files within 24-48 hours.

Like I said, it ain't gonna be something for everybody, but for folks looking to get their kids into sports gaming without involving a PC, this sure looks like a possible winner.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Also, while I'm posting on this general subject, I might as well go ahead & add a couple of other things too:

-- Check out the new forum for indy/freebie/DIY gamers. The owner/operator is
a longtime gamer who had a pretty darned good rep around the community, so he definitely deserves a plug as he makes a welcome return to the arena.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/thesportsden/start

-- That site was one of a few where I mentioned this little tidbit a few days ago.

"My first ever game for public consumption has finally made it into internal beta testing (aka "me, my son, Excel, and some dice).

It took about 4 months from the time the first things went on paper to get to this point, so today has been kind of a relief & a milestone all in one. And I guess that's why I want to talk about it just a little bit, really for the first time outside of my house.

The genre -- Professional Bull Riding ala the PBR.
(www.pbrnow.com for the uninitiated)

The test model is based on real riders & real bulls from the 2004 season that ended last October. Currently have 98 riders & 290 bulls rated for use with the game. The real-life data is great for testing & should play well for anyone so inclined, but the scarcity of data for bulls from prior seasons make it doubtful that earlier ones will be created. This could end up being something that only does a real-life season at a time, but I'm hoping to establish guidelines for creating your own fictional universe to run under the framework, once any bugs are routed from the mechanics. The beauty of using the actual data for testing is that it will give me a much better grasp of "the feel" of the game, something that I think is probably the most important attribute of any game -- whether or not it "feels right" to a fan of the subject. A great example of what I'm talking about is how Roller Rumble "felt like" Roller Derby when you played it, a feeling that made subjective ratings & pretty much anything else largely irrelevant -- you felt like you were there.

The current phase (hopefully) won't take 4 months to complete. It'll take how ever long it takes, but I'm reasonably optimistic about something in the range of a month or so (it helps to have an enthusiastic almost 7 y/o asking about the progress everyday).
Once I'm comfortable with the results & the feel on both the single event and season level, I plan to make the rules & files available publically. The guidelines for creation of fictional characters and rules for evolving your universe would follow when ready.

The PBR is a niche sport, no doubt about it. But it's one of the fastest growing niches out there, it's one that's near the very top of the sports list in my household, and it's one that features some of the all-around most likable people that I run across in all of sport. And hopefully, it'll be something that's fun on the tabletop for both fans & newcomers alike.

Right now, it's looking like this will be a "download the .pdf & print the charts & tables yourself" game. It's designed for 1d100 use (or more commonly "2d10, read separately"). My Excel skills are limited enough that no "helper app" is expected at the release, although if someone were to be motivated to do one ... The data itself is fairly compact but depending upon the level of realism you want, you'll go through several sheets of paper per event keeping track of matchups & results.

Riders & bulls have separate ratings for ride/buck potential and scoring potential, and there's an injury system that's simple to use but provides more than 50 injury types with around 100 different effects. (For the unfamiliar, injuries are an unfortunate but significant part of the PBR, with an injury of note occuring on roughly 5% of all attempted rides)

[FBPro]

I just grabbed Second Season off ebay and looking forward to giving it a whirl.

[SirFozzie]

Cool to see the thread is reborn :) God I wish I had time for a game of Roller Rumble :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cool to see the thread is reborn :) God I wish I had time for a game of Roller Rumble :)

Speaking of which, I saw last night where someone has put a copy of Roller Rumble on eBay, as well as a copy of Face To the Mat.

[vtbub]

http://www.smart-guys-sports.com/?p=135

I reviewed second and ten.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just bumping this thread to mention that I'm finishing up a homebrewed TNA roster set for Face To the Mat.

It includes the entire core roster, a few jobbers, a few former members of the roster, managers, three celebrities with TNA connections, and a few veterans that could conceivably be included in an angle if the mood strikes you, even has alternate versions of Team Canada for before/after their split. 77 cards in all (counting the five duplicated Canadians).

I'm finishing up the "Read Me" file and adding a few other things that might be helpful for gamers who don't yet follow TNA (PPV lists, current angles, tag team & stables list, etc).

Will & I played for about 3 hours last night and the set, while far from perfect, seems to give pretty good results overall, so I'm getting the package together as a zip file with everything in .pdf (for the gamers who don't have Excel) as well as the .xls version of the card templates for anybody who wants to edit something I did before printing it out.

Ultimately I'll upload this to www.tabletop-sports.com but sometimes that gets wrinkled up, so if anybody wants these when they're ready, let me know & I'll email you the zip file as soon as it's done (I'm hoping tonight/tomorrow).

[Oilers9911]

On the tabletop gaming front I have to recommend TMG Pro Basketball by Tom Mink Sports Games. www.tmsportsgames.com. It's a hybrid of a cards and dice game and a pc game. You get the cards like you would with strat-o-matic etc but there is a "helper" that you use that rolls the dice, keeps stats etc including full season stats.

I can get a full game played in about 45 minutes and it feels like basketball. Right now I am replaying the 84-85 season and it's been alot of fun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

In case anyone is interested, a guy on the Delphi Forums just put several Plaay.com games up for grabs (including Roller Rumble) He mentioned that he lives in England so the shipping probably won't be cheap, but these don't come up very often so I figured it was worth mentioning here. There's also several Lambourne Games titles available. They aren't on eBay, he's asking people to contact him directly at the email address listed in this post:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tabletopsports&msg=9481.1

[Klinglerware]

Jon,

Do you know if any updates or new teams came out recently for the SAT College PC version?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jon,

Do you know if any updates or new teams came out recently for the SAT College PC version?

I think all 117 Div I-A teams from 2005 were released about a month ago.
Should be the first file you see for download at
http://www.roogames.co.uk/satteams.htm

[Klinglerware]

Thanks. I'll definitely check it out...

[Crim]

(I have their football and roller derby games)



I threw up in my mouth a little bit at this. Am i just uninformed and closed-minded, or does anyone else find this amusing?

[SirFozzie]

You're uninformed and closed-minded.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I threw up in my mouth a little bit at this. Am i just uninformed and closed-minded, or does anyone else find this amusing?

Probably a bit close-minded. It's actually one of the best game designs & game play experiences I've seen in a long time. Much like some of the pro wrestling designs, it works from the premise that roller derby wasn't fixed/rigged/scripted, but was instead a legitimate sport. And yet somehow it manages to feel as though you're watching roller derby. It's uncanny at times how well it manages to capture the essence of the (kayfabe) experience.

If that blows your mind, I probably shouldn't mention another of the best tabletop games I've seen over the past decade or so. It's based on the game seen in the movie Rollerball.

[SirFozzie]

Let me expand: Roller Derby IS a niche sport now, agreed, but it's something a LOT of people grew up watching from generation to generation, (from the 50's San Francisco Bay Bombers, through the 80 and 90's LA T-Birds, remember ROLLERGAMES?)

So it's a natural target for a historical game.

[Crim]

hmmm, I do remember watching (and enjoying) it when i was very young, but I'd honestly never heard of or considered a board game based on it until reading this thread. <shurg>

[JonInMiddleGA]

And after too long away, nearly five years, developer Keith Avallone has brought PLAAY Games back. I don't believe he'll mind me reposting his official comments from a couple of the tabletop forums here.
I've brought back four of the original titles; ROLLER RUMBLE Roller Derby Game, FACE TO THE MAT Pro Wrestling Game, CRASH and SCRAMBLE Pro Indoor Lacrosse Game, and BOWL-O-RAMA Championship Bowling Game.

I've also added a brand NEW game, DEMO DERBY SMASH-DOWN Demolition Derby Game! It's a game I was working on just before taking a sabbatical almost five years ago. Check out the details, Welcome to PLAAY.com! (www.plaay.com)! And, I'm hoping to introduce at least one more new PLAAY game later this year.

SECOND SEASON Pro Football Game will continue to be offered by Pete Ventura at REPLAY Games. I am hoping to work with Pete to bring back some of the "lost" seasons that REPLAY hasn't been able to carry. Most people are aware of my fondness for "alterna-leagues," so I'll be looking forward to making available once again the 1974 WFL and 2001 XFL seasons, as well as perhaps offering the fictional "Football America" individual card sets. I don't have a timetable for this yet, but I'll post the latest on the website.

The PLAAY Games forum is also active again. All the originally-posted material dating back to 2001 is still archived, and it's good to see new posting going on again! Delphiforums.com/plaaygames.

Finally, if you visit PLAAY.com, please let me know of any broken or dead links you might run accross. I'm afraid my GAME design skills are a lot better than my WEB design skills!

Many thanks!

Keith Avallone
PLAAY.com

For my own two cents worth, Keith always came across to me as one of the good guys in the tabletop world. He's got an almost uncanny knack of capturing the feel of whatever niche he tries to emulate on the tabletop while keeping things fairly simple & user friendly. The return marks the first chance for some folks to get a copy of most of his games since they were basically out of print while he was away (with the exception of the football game). Since making his return plans known 2-3 weeks ago he's mentioned working on updating the card sets for wrestling and I see that the new MLL set is already done. And I can speak from experience when I say that, at least in the case of Roller Rumble & Face to the Mat, that making your own sets is a relatively easy & fun thing to do.

[CraigSca]

Just thought I'd chime in with a plug for Inside Sports Games - insidesportsgames.org.

Their libraries of past seasons aren't as large as some of the other companies because they're relatively new, but since their games are new and don't rely on algorithms from 20+ years ago, I find them to be more realistic in their play. For instance, their baseball game embraces FIPS and is not a 50/50 engine. Therefore, you get to see guys like Mariano Rivera dominate as they do in real life (rather than 50% of the time - ha)

He has football, baseball, hockey, basketball and tennis (believe it or not). Also, the basketball and hockey games have computer versions that play as they do on the tabletop (so it's not a typical "automated" game like most computer versions - you still "play" the game as you do on the table, the PC version just takes care of a lot of the look-ups and statistical housekeeping).

Anyway - if you're interested in an accurate replay sim with a different engine, give it a shot.

[Galaril]

And after too long away, nearly five years, developer Keith Avallone has brought PLAAY Games back. I don't believe he'll mind me reposting his official comments from a couple of the tabletop forums here.


For my own two cents worth, Keith always came across to me as one of the good guys in the tabletop world. He's got an almost uncanny knack of capturing the feel of whatever niche he tries to emulate on the tabletop while keeping things fairly simple & user friendly. The return marks the first chance for some folks to get a copy of most of his games since they were basically out of print while he was away (with the exception of the football game). Since making his return plans known 2-3 weeks ago he's mentioned working on updating the card sets for wrestling and I see that the new MLL set is already done. And I can speak from experience when I say that, at least in the case of Roller Rumble & Face to the Mat, that making your own sets is a relatively easy & fun thing to do.


And I would give a plug for Season Season Football. It is alot of fun and very realistic. Plus, there are a bunch of free seasons and you can make you own very easily. I know someone did the entire 120 team 2008 NCAA teams for freee and 5-6 free seasons. The game and more seasons can be bought at Replaysports.com. IB is also good but I prefer Second Season.

[Calis]

What's the best option for basketball? I'm getting the itch for a historical basketball tabletop. I've never played anything apart from Strat baseball.

I see Above the Rim mentioned earlier? I've bee browsing at Replay Basketball and that looks nice if a little pricey. The 85-86 and 92-93 seasons are luring me in though.

What's a good one?

[JonInMiddleGA]

What's the best option for basketball? I'm getting the itch for a historical basketball tabletop. I've never played anything apart from Strat baseball.

I see Above the Rim mentioned earlier? I've bee browsing at Replay Basketball and that looks nice if a little pricey. The 85-86 and 92-93 seasons are luring me in though.

What's a good one?

AtR is great stuff and the price is obviously right. Replay's games are very well thought of as well (albeit not cheap) and you probably couldn't go wrong with either.

I'd suggest giving the Excel version of AtR a try to see if it scratches your itch in the basketball niche. If it does, then you're happy on the cheap. If it doesn't then Replay would be a good choice IMO.

[WVUFAN]

Is Face to the Mat worthwhile? Is it a booking game, or a sim-style game?

[Galaril]

What's the best option for basketball? I'm getting the itch for a historical basketball tabletop. I've never played anything apart from Strat baseball.

I see Above the Rim mentioned earlier? I've bee browsing at Replay Basketball and that looks nice if a little pricey. The 85-86 and 92-93 seasons are luring me in though.

What's a good one?

Alot of people swear by Replay Basketball but I tried it and found it somewhat complicated at least for me. I have been playing TMG by tom Mink which has players cards and a software program that shows the stats and tracks time and flips FACS on the screen and you just have to click certain inputs from the cards. It is great combination of speed 1 hour games and user interactiveness which most pc games lack.Plus he has ALL NBA and even ABA seasons from the last 60 years available.

check it out here:
Home (http://tmsportsgames.com/)

check it out

[Calis]

Thanks for the info on the basketball games. I think I will give Above the Rim a shot tonight because there is nothing to lose, and if it is well polished and playable I might as well. It looks like the newest Ultimate version of it is completely played on PC? I'd read some comments that you'd need to print out the cards and use a combo. My printer is junk and that doesn't interest me, so hopefully it can be completely Excel-based.

That game you mentioned looks great Galaril. I might like having the computer doing some legwork and still maintaining a tabletop feel. Looks cheaper than Replay at least initially as well, unless I'm missing a base package you'd have to purchase. That's pretty nice having every season as well, do you find it to be pretty good on a realism front?

Something where I could be free to do some what ifs with moving players to different teams and such would interest me as well, but I'm not sure if most of these games have team ratings based off the specific structure. It looks like Replay does.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Thanks for the info on the basketball games. I think I will give Above the Rim a shot tonight because there is nothing to lose, and if it is well polished and playable I might as well. It looks like the newest Ultimate version of it is completely played on PC? I'd read some comments that you'd need to print out the cards and use a combo. My printer is junk and that doesn't interest me, so hopefully it can be completely Excel-based.

Unless something has changed dramatically in the months that I've pretty much been away from the tabletop/tabletop forums, yes, you can play it strictly Excel. I've played a ton of Wayne's college games (only real option out their for women's hoops afaik) and have never printed a single card.

[SirFozzie]

Is Face to the Mat worthwhile? Is it a booking game, or a sim-style game?

Sim Style with elements of Booking.. (in that you run a fed)

Here's an example of play:

http://plaay.com/PLAAY%20PDFs/playsampleFTTM.pdf

[CraigSca]

Alot of people swear by Replay Basketball but I tried it and found it somewhat complicated at least for me. I have been playing TMG by tom Mink which has players cards and a software program that shows the stats and tracks time and flips FACS on the screen and you just have to click certain inputs from the cards. It is great combination of speed 1 hour games and user interactiveness which most pc games lack.Plus he has ALL NBA and even ABA seasons from the last 60 years available.

check it out here:
Home (http://tmsportsgames.com/)

check it out

I have the Inside Sports "Inside the Paint" basketball game. As I said before it's played just like on the tabletop, but it keeps track of the stats and the substitutions for you. One of the interesting things about Inside the Paint is how it replicates momentum in basketball. You can see particular teams start to accrue momentum points that can really shift the results of the game - teams will start to go on mini-runs. However, just like in real basketball, the opposing coach can call a time out and reset the momentum factor. Just a little extra bit of strategy.

Oh, and Inside the Paint has college teams, too - I have the full NCAA set from last year.

[Galaril]

Thanks for the info on the basketball games. I think I will give Above the Rim a shot tonight because there is nothing to lose, and if it is well polished and playable I might as well. It looks like the newest Ultimate version of it is completely played on PC? I'd read some comments that you'd need to print out the cards and use a combo. My printer is junk and that doesn't interest me, so hopefully it can be completely Excel-based.

That game you mentioned looks great Galaril. I might like having the computer doing some legwork and still maintaining a tabletop feel. Looks cheaper than Replay at least initially as well, unless I'm missing a base package you'd have to purchase. That's pretty nice having every season as well, do you find it to be pretty good on a realism front?

Something where I could be free to do some what ifs with moving players to different teams and such would interest me as well, but I'm not sure if most of these games have team ratings based off the specific structure. It looks like Replay does.


TMG has a bunch of draft leagues that people run I have not joined one ye but they look fun so you definitely can move players around. On realism, TMG is real spot on with players stats and thus overall team stats. that said there still is alot of unpredictability from game to game just as in the NBA. So, in a best of seven series the Thunder aren't going to beat the Celtics but in one night at home Oklahoma City could surprise the Celts.

I am playing a full season replay of the 2007-2008 Celtics and Rockets and the results are very realistic for the most part. The Celtics are 11-2 and the Rockets 3-8 with a bunch of tough losses on a real tough early season schedule. Here is the link to my replay and the posted box scores which are real nice. Also, this forum is a TMG exclusive and the member are real helpful to give more info. The last selling point I found with TMG is different eras do play and feel differently so the early 1970s will be high scoring but the post 96 eras are much more defense oriented.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/TMSportsGames/messages/?listmode=1

[cubboyroy1826]

Okay has anyone tired out the Inside Sports Tennis?

[Calis]

I spent last evening trying out Above the Rim and TMG both. I went with AtR first and was initially overwhelmed so I downloaded the demo for TMG. Demo comes with 2008 Cavs and Lakers so I played through a game of that and just kept PDF of player cards up on my 2nd monitor.

Took a few minutes to come to grips with the system, but I was really impressed once I did. It moves at a quick clip, makes it really difficult for you to screw up, and I like how the little added strategy of picking who recieves a pass with a set number of how many times you can pick them in a game. Nice way to maintain realism and add some strategy.

I ended up buying the '98 season because I enjoyed the game so much. I can see playing a lengthy replay with this one. It is pretty slick looking, keeps good stats and the cards look nice(assuming they're printed on quality stock). Gets major bonus points for ease of use and quickness. If I wasn't having to scroll through a PDF to find results I'd have flown through the game. Fatigue was a little finicky to keep guys rested and seems to do massive penalties, so I'm not sure how I feel on that but everything else seemed solid.

Cavs wound up winning pretty easily. Kobe and Lebron did what you'd expect, but the Lakers had serious foul issues with Bynum and Gasol and the Cavs had a nice mix of scorers. I did some weird test stuff so can't say much on realism. I will begin a real series this weekend. Hopefully he ships out cards quickly, I'd like to get them to play in between Xmas and New Year's.

I then went back and gave AtR a more serious look. It is definitely more complicated and easy to accidentally mess something up, but for a free game it is pretty outstanding. Huge roster selections and the ones I looked at seemed right on.

It was slow to play, but probably due to my newness to the game. It is actually relatively simple to play once you get over the initial shock of the amount of info present. I did accidentally click several times on something that didn't do what I expected so could lead to some real funky stats. I didn't even think to see if an Undo from Excel would work to go back, I forgot I was even using Excel while playing.

Definitely a game I will keep playing until TMG gets here and after because of the roster selection. It isn't pretty, but the engine seemed solid and you can't beat the scope.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm loving both of them. I found what I read on the AtR needing cards also, he says that he has an old version you can request that uses cards, but it was never a requirement to use them.

I will try out the demo for that Inside the Paint game also.

[Galaril]

I spent last evening trying out Above the Rim and TMG both. I went with AtR first and was initially overwhelmed so I downloaded the demo for TMG. Demo comes with 2008 Cavs and Lakers so I played through a game of that and just kept PDF of player cards up on my 2nd monitor.

Took a few minutes to come to grips with the system, but I was really impressed once I did. It moves at a quick clip, makes it really difficult for you to screw up, and I like how the little added strategy of picking who receives a pass with a set number of how many times you can pick them in a game. Nice way to maintain realism and add some strategy.

I ended up buying the '98 season because I enjoyed the game so much. I can see playing a lengthy replay with this one. It is pretty slick looking, keeps good stats and the cards look nice(assuming they're printed on quality stock). Gets major bonus points for ease of use and quickness. If I wasn't having to scroll through a PDF to find results I'd have flown through the game. Fatigue was a little finicky to keep guys rested and seems to do massive penalties, so I'm not sure how I feel on that but everything else seemed solid.

Cavs wound up winning pretty easily. Kobe and Lebron did what you'd expect, but the Lakers had serious foul issues with Bynum and Gasol and the Cavs had a nice mix of scorers. I did some weird test stuff so can't say much on realism. I will begin a real series this weekend. Hopefully he ships out cards quickly, I'd like to get them to play in between Xmas and New Year's.

I then went back and gave AtR a more serious look. It is definitely more complicated and easy to accidentally mess something up, but for a free game it is pretty outstanding. Huge roster selections and the ones I looked at seemed right on.

It was slow to play, but probably due to my newness to the game. It is actually relatively simple to play once you get over the initial shock of the amount of info present. I did accidentally click several times on something that didn't do what I expected so could lead to some real funky stats. I didn't even think to see if an Undo from Excel would work to go back, I forgot I was even using Excel while playing.

Definitely a game I will keep playing until TMG gets here and after because of the roster selection. It isn't pretty, but the engine seemed solid and you can't beat the scope.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm loving both of them. I found what I read on the AtR needing cards also, he says that he has an old version you can request that uses cards, but it was never a requirement to use them.

I will try out the demo for that Inside the Paint game also.


Calis,

glad you like TMG. Tom Mink is a good guy and he ships the cards very fast I not be surprised depending where you live to Tom in Indiana that you don't get the Cards by Monday. The cards are real nice and easy to read with a nice touch of color and have the teams accurate logos based on the years of the season. On Fatigue I too played a few games with the fatigue and single click but after a few games did not use it any more. So I would recommend not using the fatigue penalty and check the no penalty for fatigue in the options menu. It will still show you when a player in the half is over his standard rest minutes based on that players MPG and needs to get some rest. So I try to play "as played rosters" lineups and use real injuries and transactions. Check out this site for getting the injury,trade demotions info for teams and seasons:http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/
I also recommend not using the single click option since if you hit the wrong button.

[PadresFan104]

Hey guys, speaking of tabletop games, I have been having a great time with a newer football "quick-play" game from Jeff Downey called Momentum Football. It resolves each game on a drive-by-drive basis, so this is not a game for people who want control over each play. What's great though, is that the engine identifies the players involved in key plays, and has enough possible events to keep each game interesting. The momentum feature is well implemented as well.

I don't think there are many people like me who like these "20 minute" games, but if you do, I'd encourage you to check it out. More info is here: http://downeygames.tabletop-sports.com/

[Calis]

Calis,

glad you like TMG. Tom Mink is a good guy and he ships the cards very fast I not be surprised depending where you live to Tom in Indiana that you don't get the Cards by Monday. The cards are real nice and easy to read with a nice touch of color and have the teams accurate logos based on the years of the season. On Fatigue I too played a few games with the fatigue and single click but after a few games did not use it any more. So I would recommend not using the fatigue penalty and check the no penalty for fatigue in the options menu. It will still show you when a player in the half is over his standard rest minutes based on that players MPG and needs to get some rest. So I try to play "as played rosters" lineups and use real injuries and transactions. Check out this site for getting the injury,trade demotions info for teams and seasons:Professional Basketball Transactions Archive (http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/)
I also recommend not using the single click option since if you hit the wrong button.

Thanks for the link. I think I will turn off the fatigue also and just manually monitor it. I can see situations where I'd need some bend in the minutes and the penalty seems to severe.

I'm not sure what one-click mode is, but I will check that when I play again. I assume I'm in it, because I did mess up a couple times and was unable to undo it which is supposedly an option.

I actually got a response from Tom on Twitter and he is printing my cards up now so looks like the turnaround is quick.

[Calis]

Well to bring this back around from my basketball derailment for a second, I actually spent way too damn long yesterday playing 2nd and 10. I was really impressed. I started with a quick sim of 2008, and towards the end of the season I'd jump into important games, see if they were close and finish them out, and then in the playoffs I controlled both offenses.

Really was a blast, and I think the results were pretty good. I like the abstracted way of calling plays, and the system limiting overuse of players.

It helped that I had a bunch of great games in the playoffs, I think all but one of the games leading to Super Bowl was decided by 5 points or less and a couple went to OT.

I will more than likely end up buying it. I threw some mods on there to spice up sounds and pictures. Makes a big difference.

I think I will end up buying it, the price doesn't seem too bad to me because of the sheer number of teams you get. I can see myself going back through the years and doing a "quick" year-sim like I did yesterday and seeing how things play out.

Back to basketball though, anyone have experience with Action PC Basketball? I took a look yesterday and it seems like their games add a lot more choices for the player, going so far as to sorta blur the lines between being a coach and player. Is it a good sim? Software good? I see they have a 2009 projection set and I'd consider getting that for my current NBA needs.

[Galaril]

Well to bring this back around from my basketball derailment for a second, I actually spent way too damn long yesterday playing 2nd and 10. I was really impressed. I started with a quick sim of 2008, and towards the end of the season I'd jump into important games, see if they were close and finish them out, and then in the playoffs I controlled both offenses.

Really was a blast, and I think the results were pretty good. I like the abstracted way of calling plays, and the system limiting overuse of players.

It helped that I had a bunch of great games in the playoffs, I think all but one of the games leading to Super Bowl was decided by 5 points or less and a couple went to OT.

I will more than likely end up buying it. I threw some mods on there to spice up sounds and pictures. Makes a big difference.

I think I will end up buying it, the price doesn't seem too bad to me because of the sheer number of teams you get. I can see myself going back through the years and doing a "quick" year-sim like I did yesterday and seeing how things play out.

Back to basketball though, anyone have experience with Action PC Basketball? I took a look yesterday and it seems like their games add a lot more choices for the player, going so far as to sorta blur the lines between being a coach and player. Is it a good sim? Software good? I see they have a 2009 projection set and I'd consider getting that for my current NBA needs.


Action I tried out and way too much options for play calling actually. I like amny others are skeptical of the games accuracy. On SAT Second and Ten football. I am also not sure of the accuracy of that one. When I play out games the results are mixed I guess it just means I am a crappy play caller. One thing that is awesome is the price is very reasonable.

[CraigSca]

I just picked up Inside the Crease this weekend with the 1984-85 NHL teams. It's been a lot of fun thus far, especially playing teams like the Nordiques (with the Stastny brothers and Michel Goulet) vs. teams like the Flyers who just have an awesome defense. The game itself really captures the flow of hockey.

[Glengoyne]

I have a quick question about the basketball games. Are the players represented on individual cards that can move from team to team without trouble? A group of my friends and I dedicated a few years to completing full 162 game baseball seasons on Earl Weaver baseball where we drafted individual players from through out baseball history.and assembled "dream teams". We did something similar, although on a smaller scale with XOR basketball.

I'm just wondering if this kind of thing would be possible with these tabletop or even excel based games.

[Galaril]

I have a quick question about the basketball games. Are the players represented on individual cards that can move from team to team without trouble? A group of my friends and I dedicated a few years to completing full 162 game baseball seasons on Earl Weaver baseball where we drafted individual players from through out baseball history.and assembled "dream teams". We did something similar, although on a smaller scale with XOR basketball.

I'm just wondering if this kind of thing would be possible with these tabletop or even excel based games.

Which basketball game ? TMG yes and i ebliev you print out the cards for ITP they are individual also.

[Calis]

Action I tried out and way too much options for play calling actually. I like amny others are skeptical of the games accuracy. On SAT Second and Ten football. I am also not sure of the accuracy of that one. When I play out games the results are mixed I guess it just means I am a crappy play caller. One thing that is awesome is the price is very reasonable.

That's my fear on Action. I actually think I want a more hands-off approach like I'm watching the game rather than playing the game, with some minor strings to pull. That's what I liked about the 2nd and 10 playcalling system. It gives you general control without bogging down, which in turn can hide issues. I think it does a good job really making the superstars stand out also. A top-tier WR is a treasure there and you have to really plan out when to utilize that and how to ration it.

Heh, I noticed the same thing with my called games. The games I playcalled were generally off-base with stats, but the quick sims seem pretty believable stat-wise. I didn't delve too deep, but I'm not too picky on this, just needs to be believable. I don't know if it is my calling or the system that leads to this.

[rowech]

I've tried Action PC games from time to time. Everytime I get lured back in, I play for a while, and then realize why I don't like them. The results are always a bit too convenient. I feel like the game gives you the massive illusion that all of these decisions really come into play and it's as detailed as you can possibly imagine. Yet, there are plenty of posts on their message board if you look far enough back, where people make changes to ratings to see if there is a difference and unfortunately, there aren't.

Too often with action, the results seem too convenient for me to trust them.

[Glengoyne]

Which basketball game ? TMG yes and i ebliev you print out the cards for ITP they are individual also.

I was looking at TMG, based on the high level overview info here. I'm going to dig into both.

[Galaril]

I was looking at TMG, based on the high level overview info here. I'm going to dig into both.

Oh ok then yes individual cards and real good quality with colored team logos pretty nice. I can not speak for ITP it looks good to but season are fairly few since it is a new game. I personally found the cards way to busy for my liking and so settled on TMG.

[CraigSca]

Oh ok then yes individual cards and real good quality with colored team logos pretty nice. I can not speak for ITP it looks good to but season are fairly few since it is a new game. I personally found the cards way to busy for my liking and so settled on TMG.

I admit, the cards are a little busy, but that's only because they have different sections for different states of the game (regular offense, fastbreak offense, etc.). What I like about ITP is that the PC version takes care of the statistical minutiae and drives the game - but you're still playing it like on the table top. Also, every time the ball is passed or a shot is attempted the defensive matchup has an opportunity to prevent the transaction - and it's seamless - it's not another dice roll or anything, you're just asked to check the defender's rating. Oh, and the one other thing - ITP is for both pro and college. I'm a big college fan (pro not so much) and I've asked Tom Mink for years to make a college season, but he's been devoted to pro and doesn't seem to want to make a change.

Oh also - regarding the busy cards - when playing the PC version if ITP, it highlights in green exactly what you should be comparing or clicking. For instance, if a rebound card comes up saying to compare the rebound rating of the offensive SG and the defensive SF, it will highlight their ratings in green, making the game eminently playable and fast-moving.

[Galaril]

I was looking at TMG, based on the high level overview info here. I'm going to dig into both.

Did you take the plunge and get TMG?

[Galaril]

I spent last evening trying out Above the Rim and TMG both. I went with AtR first and was initially overwhelmed so I downloaded the demo for TMG. Demo comes with 2008 Cavs and Lakers so I played through a game of that and just kept PDF of player cards up on my 2nd monitor.

Took a few minutes to come to grips with the system, but I was really impressed once I did. It moves at a quick clip, makes it really difficult for you to screw up, and I like how the little added strategy of picking who recieves a pass with a set number of how many times you can pick them in a game. Nice way to maintain realism and add some strategy.

I ended up buying the '98 season because I enjoyed the game so much. I can see playing a lengthy replay with this one. It is pretty slick looking, keeps good stats and the cards look nice(assuming they're printed on quality stock). Gets major bonus points for ease of use and quickness. If I wasn't having to scroll through a PDF to find results I'd have flown through the game. Fatigue was a little finicky to keep guys rested and seems to do massive penalties, so I'm not sure how I feel on that but everything else seemed solid.

Cavs wound up winning pretty easily. Kobe and Lebron did what you'd expect, but the Lakers had serious foul issues with Bynum and Gasol and the Cavs had a nice mix of scorers. I did some weird test stuff so can't say much on realism. I will begin a real series this weekend. Hopefully he ships out cards quickly, I'd like to get them to play in between Xmas and New Year's.

I then went back and gave AtR a more serious look. It is definitely more complicated and easy to accidentally mess something up, but for a free game it is pretty outstanding. Huge roster selections and the ones I looked at seemed right on.

It was slow to play, but probably due to my newness to the game. It is actually relatively simple to play once you get over the initial shock of the amount of info present. I did accidentally click several times on something that didn't do what I expected so could lead to some real funky stats. I didn't even think to see if an Undo from Excel would work to go back, I forgot I was even using Excel while playing.

Definitely a game I will keep playing until TMG gets here and after because of the roster selection. It isn't pretty, but the engine seemed solid and you can't beat the scope.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm loving both of them. I found what I read on the AtR needing cards also, he says that he has an old version you can request that uses cards, but it was never a requirement to use them.

I will try out the demo for that Inside the Paint game also.


Are you still having fun with TMG. I am playing out the Celtics 2007-2008 Season and then the full playoffs before moving on to the 1985-1986 Rockets season.

[PadresFan104]

Thought I'd share my most recent tabletop football project with you guys. I just finished a "pre-play" of the 2009-2010 NFL playoffs with Momentum Football. As a Chargers fan, it sucked, but Jets fans should enjoy the read. If interested, head over to my blog for the details: RANdom Gamer (www.randomgamer.net)