Stormcloud Creations in Trouble

[Barkeep49]

Just got the following email:

NOTE: You are receiving this because you have asked to be sent this though our website or other e-zine subscription service, or have been a great friend or supporter to SC in the past, or purchased a product from us, and we thought this info might be useful to you as a supporter of indie gaming.


Hello Stormcloud newsletter subscribers,

Greetings, and I wish this newsletter were coming in better circumstances. Please read the following and though it pains me to do this, I must ask for our help, as people who are interested in Stormcloud and indie gaming in general.

Due to recent life events, our operating budget (and living budget too) has run very low. After 4+ years in business, I have been forced into a situation where I must turn to my interested subscribers + long-time loyal gamers of Stormcloud for possible help. We need funds to continue operating. Not a million dollars, mind you, but as much as possible.

What i'm asking is basically: we need gamers and people to step forward and contribute to our company, so we can survive and continue to produce fun, solid game experiences, and our games can evolve and get better and better. Contributions can be as little as $5.00 USD all the way up to as much as you can give, but we need your help to continue to stay around.

This doesn't come without benefits of course. Higher contributors (say $10 or higher) will get free early games of ours, possibly future games for free, inside track on Alpha testing and very early screenshots.ideas, and direct input on what projects to do next, and their direction. So you know your money will be going some place. All contributors will get personal e-mails thanking you, and getting your input into the company. ALL money will go directly producing future games and paying my family's bills and stuff, so this isn't a hand-out, a trick to make money or buying a BMW or anything. :)

Higher contributions (say $100 or more) and you'll be given our next few games for FREE, and you'll be given one-on-one personal status reports about us and what we're up to, and be added to a soon-to-come Platinum Supporters page on our website, if you wish.

Even higher contributors ($500+) will be given a small piece of permanent ownership in the company, depending on the amount contributed. You'll share directly in our profits from that moment on! It could be a good investment opportunity for someone. This can be negotiated of course.

If I cannot raise at least a little money, Stormcloud Creations will most likely fold in the next few months. This is a simple reality. But you really can make a difference. You can help keep us around. You can decide if we survive and flourish, or die and close up. It's up to you. I understand money is tight and people have their own stuff and families to take care of. So if you can't give, we understand. But we hope you'll consider doing so.

I accept PayPal at e-mail address [email protected] and checks/money orders, and regular credit cards too. E-mail me at
[email protected] for my address if you wish to send checks/money orders, and for URL info if you wish to use a regular credit card. We accept contributions from anyone, not just subscribers, so let all your friends know who may interested in supporting indie gaming.

Thanks for listening and no matter what happens, we've always appreciated all of our subscribers and gamers for their support. I also apologize if this has disturbed you in any way.

Sincerely,

Derek
Stormcloud Creations
www.stormcloudcreations.com

[VPI97]

Damn

[Ragone]

So what happens if say.. someone gives money.. and they don't get enough money to continue?

[Eaglesfan27]

So what happens if say.. someone gives money.. and they don't get enough money to continue?

Good question.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Another way to contribute would be to go buy his games. They are on sale cheap at Shrapnel Games website. I just bought Coliseum for $8.00 shipped the other day. I'll probably go grab his Four Pack Platinum, which is on sale for only $9.95.

You can enter in a code (BACKTOSCHOOL) to get 15% off an order.

You could get his whole collection of games (Coliseum, Interstellar Trader 2, and Four Pack Platinum) for under $30 now.

[MizzouRah]

So what happens if say.. someone gives money.. and they don't get enough money to continue?
We must be in the same mind frame today. :)

I guess your SOL.


Todd

[Blackadar]

I'm not trying to pick on anyone here, but....

I've looked over Stormcloud's website and I see very little that appeals to me. I'm sure his games are good, but I've played games like Interstellar Trader since the late 80s (on UNC's mainframe). Coliseum and Voyager have no appeal to me - one didn't get very good reviews if I remember correctly and the other looks like a Magic: the Gathering clone. They're probably not, but at first blush, that's what I see...

I remember the demo of Coliseum and found it to be a bit thin.

I know it takes a lot of balls to ask your customers, who have already purchased your products, to pony up more money to keep the company running. I don't know, maybe I'm just being a curmegeon today, but perhaps if there were more compelling games this would have been avoided?

Ah, forget it...I don't wish any ill will on anyone. Good luck, Stormcloud.

[Ksyrup]

The folks at SC may have this already covered, and if so, good for them, but being a lawyer, the first thing that popped into my head - particularly when I got to the part about certain levels of contributions entitling people to an ownership interest in the company - is whether the company is aware of, has complied with, and/or has been exempted from the SEC's regulations governing securities offerings.

This isn't my specific area, although I've dabbled in it from time-to-time, and the rules are fairly complex (and on top of the Feds, there is some overlapping state jurisdiction as well), but even for what appears to be a small offering like this, most of the potential exemptions require filings with the SEC or satisfaction of very specific criteria about the types of investors, securities, and advertising that can be done legally without registration.

Here's a good primer straight from the Feds:

http://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/qasbsec.htm


Again, this concern may be moot, and SC may have run all of this by counsel qualified to opine on SEC matters (which I don't consider myself :) ), but I thought I'd throw it out there for them to see, if in fact this hasn't occurred to them. The very basic question asked above - "So what happens if say.. someone gives money.. and they don't get enough money to continue?" - can be the basis for a lawsuit down the road if things don't go well for the company.

Just a helpful FYI.

[Blackadar]

Good point, Ksyrup.

[Bee]

While I'm not a fan of his games, I hope things work out for Derek since he seems like a great guy on the forums.

[WSUCougar]

While I'm not a fan of his games, I hope things work out for Derek since he seems like a great guy on the forums.
Ditto, although in truth it makes me a little uncomfortable to see this approach.

[Ben E Lou]

Ditto, although in truth it makes me a little uncomfortable to see this approach.Agree on both counts.

[rkmsuf]

Anyone want to donate to The Human Fund, Money For People?

[GrantDawg]

It was all fine till the lawyer showed up...which reminds me:

God decided to take the devil to court and settle their differences once and for all. When Satan heard this, he laughed and said, "And where do you think you're going to find a lawyer?"

[sachmo71]

Nanotech is a fun game that comes in the 4 pack, also. Most of the game play similarly, just with a different wrapper. I think if Derek got together with another developer to add more depth, he could make a very appealing game.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

So what happens if say.. someone gives money.. and they don't get enough money to continue?

It's a business bad debt and a write off for income tax purposes. (Note - This is not intended to be tax advice, please contact your tax advisor for how this would impact your tax situation.)


I completely empathize with what Derek & Stormcloud Creations are going through. Been there, done that, ate balogne and cheese sandwhiches for weeks on end to pay the bills. Thought about selling my hair, or listing my ovaries on eBay or something, but everything worked out in the end.

I too would like "Ditto" what Ksyrup said. There may be potential issues here.I mean, basic information is missing from that email. Are they an LLC? Partnership? SCorp? Will I get to see their prior year financials and current year forecasts before I write a check? Will I be able to participate in managment? Will my ownership be simply phantom stock or full equity? What state is Stormcloud registered in? I guess Derek would communicate all this to someone who was interested in an equity stake in the company.

But here's another point that I that I hope has been addressed - depending on the type of entity, anyone who is an owner can claim pro-rata ownership in the assets of the company. That includes its intellectual property - meaning they own a portion of the code of every product, and depending on the state, are entitled to access said code upon request. I hope they have a plan to deal with this, becuase its not a situation any game development company should be in. One partner can really do damage to the entire company if they really wanted to.

[GrantDawg]

One partner can really do damage to the entire company if they really wanted to.
You wouldn't know anything about that, would you? :)

[korme]

good luck stormcloud

[StormcloudCreations]

I understand people's reactions so far; cynicism, well-wishes, etc. Believe me, I tortured myself over taking this approach. I figured it would be better than suffering for awhile and then quietly shutting down, or selling out to some person who might not have the best interests of the company at heart. Actually, I know of several moderately successful indies who have stayed alive in very similar (if not exact) ways, so it isn't unprecedented. Since indies aren't funded by investors (generally) or anything, if sudden life events hurt them, they're hurting pretty bad.

Also, I basically don't require a whole lot, since my overhead isn't too bad. Maybe 3-4,000 is all I would need total to stay around for a long time. So it isn't like i'm asking for huge sums. Even $5 would be just great.

Basically, the "ownership" aspect is limited to silent partnership, where you would be entitled to a share of the profits every so often (depending on the amount of course). You would get a paper in the mail stating your rights under this agreement. It wouldn't be tons of money mind you (or who knows, it might be later on), but you would be getting money, free games and keeping an indie alive, so it's a win-win pretty much.
And of course, these "partners" would be listened to very closely in terms of future projects, approaches, feature sets, etc. You would know where your money is going.

I understand if some people are in their own situations and barely having enough to pay their own bills. I figure it would be this, or just board up the windows, most likely.

Godzilla Blitz: Yes, that works too. :)

Blackadar: It doesn't always work that way (the "compelling games" comment). I've had hundreds of people write who have enjoyed Voyager, and thousands over the years write me who have enjoyed my other products. Sometimes it isn't always about quality. Sometimes its about clout, and the struggle all indies have exposing and promoting their products. And just a note: this isn't about my sales, which have been pretty decent of late. This is related to other personal matters that occured. I do specialize in more "casual" games mostly, so if that isn't your cup of tea, then so be it. :)

WSU Cougar: That makes two of us (the uncomfortable part). :)

[Samdari]

Thought about selling my hair.

What color, how long, how much?

Before you think I am a sick bastard for even asking, I am actually being selfless here. I am thinking we could all chip in and buy it for Cam.

[Samdari]

Dola

Derek, I would listen to Ksyrup very carefully if I were you. I had an associate who tried to keep a small struggling business with a few dedicated customers alive with a very similarly worded offer. What it comes down to is this - if you are offering limited partnerships in a business for money, and doing it in a public way (i.e. to anyone who has the money) the SEC considers you to be selling stock. Do this in the US without telling them, and they will hammer you.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

What color, how long, how much?

Before you think I am a sick bastard for even asking, I am actually being selfless here. I am thinking we could all chip in and buy it for Cam.

Red, I'd sell about 6 inches worth for $500. Plenty of hair to make a nice hair piece for cam. He'd look fantastic as a red head.


Derek - I hope everything works out for you and you can continue with Stormcloud.

[Ksyrup]

Red, I'd sell about 6 inches worth for $500. Plenty of hair to make a nice hair piece for cam. He'd look fantastic as a red head.
This seems infinitely more reasonable than that aircraft carrier we were looking at...

[Bee]

I'd sell about 6 inches worth for $500.

That's good, Cam doesn't have anywhere near 6 inches.

[StormcloudCreations]

Correct Samdari...I am in no way offering "stock" or even partnerships really. Just a special deal and an encouragment for people who want to kick in more, rather than just "thanks for the money, see ya!". People who do this would simply be entitled to FREE games of ours for a long time, a prominent and loud voice in our future and what we should tackle from now on, very first peeks at new stuff, before anyone else sees them (and whether its worth the time to develop, in some cases) and a little share of our profits on occasion. I am not offering any form of active management partnership, or any type of shares or stock.

[NoMyths]

Correct Samdari...I am in no way offering "stock" or even partnerships really. Just a special deal and an encouragment for people who want to kick in more, rather than just "thanks for the money, see ya!". People who do this would simply be entitled to FREE games of ours for a long time, a prominent and loud voice in our future and what we should tackle from now on, very first peeks at new stuff, before anyone else sees them (and whether its worth the time to develop, in some cases) and a little share of our profits on occasion. I am not offering any form of active management partnership, or any type of shares or stock.Actually, what you describe sounds exactly like a shareholder. :)

[Gary Gorski]

Derek, sorry you're having a rough go at it right now. Hope everything works out for you and like a couple other people here wisely mentioned, be careful with it. There are a host of issues from people thinking they are shareholders because they paid you for the right to voice their opinion on things and get profits and plus that might not be good for you or your company. What if you get a couple of guys who do nothing but have terrible ideas and complain you never use them and that they paid money for this and blah blah blah...

I really hope it works out for the best - just choose wisely your course of action because you don't want a short term solution that turns into a long term nightmare. Good luck.

[StormcloudCreations]

Actually, what you describe sounds exactly like a shareholder. :)

In a way, but not really. You would have a voice, but I would still make the decisions. Basically this "offer" would take you directly into my little company, and be able to offer your game expertise very early in the process. :) It's just a simple business offer where you would see some long-term benefit for your money. No "kickback" business trips or luncheons or anything like that, sorry. :)

[StormcloudCreations]

Thanks Gary...yes that would be communicated loud and clear early on. I would listen carefully, but not guarantee that ideas would be used or not. But oftentimes, some of the best game ideas i've had have come from other people. :)

[JAG]

That's good, Cam doesn't have anywhere near 6 inches.

Paging Franklinnoble.

[CamEdwards]

That's good, Cam doesn't have anywhere near 6 inches.

your mother seems to be happy with what I've got. Then again, she's the Will Rogers of ho's... never met a man she didn't like.


As to a hairpiece... thanks but no thanks. I like being bald... or so I tell myself as I cry myself to sleep at night.

[Ksyrup]

What you think your activities constitute is irrelevant to the SEC. Honestly, I don't know you and I wish you nothing but success with your company, but...I strongly urge you to run this idea past someone with substantive knowledge of securities law.

Based on my limited knowledge of this area, what you have described in each of your posts causes me some concern. Again, I'm just trying to be helpful here, so do with this information what you will.

[SlapBone]

Yea Derek....better start using that word "subscription" a little more.

Good Luck Bro

[Fidatelo]

My biggest worry about this whole thing is the part where people who make contributions get future games for free. My guess is that the people who make contributions to keep this company alive will be the exact same people who can be counted on to actually buy the products upon release. So now future game sales will be severly hampered, which will certainly effect the long-term viability of the company in regards to making a profit.

[druez]

No offense. But if you've been doing this for four years now and can't make enough to support your company or yourself, asking for money isn't the answer.

Do you have anything coming down the pike, that would merrit an investment? A REALLY COOL NEW GAME, THAT YOU JUST NEED TIME TO FINISH?

I would just change your approach and stop making simple games. Take coliseum for example great idea, but way to simplified. Your target audience is geared to people who like indepth simmulations with tons of stats.

If you would of made coliseum into a stat moneky's dream with more depth and made it "DOWNLOADABLE" you might be better served.

Not that anyone wanted or asked for my opinion. But, when has that ever stopped me.

[Ksyrup]

You would have a voice, but I would still make the decisions.
This is called an "investment."


It's just a simple business offer where you would see some long-term benefit for your money.
This is called a "return on investment." And you're suggesting that there will be a benefit, when in fact, worst-case scenario, there might not be.

Please, get thee to an attorney!

OK, I've done my good deed for the day, and I shall speak no more of this issue.

[Arles]

This is a very tough business with which to keep going. Independent developers offer a great opportunity, but there is little stability to fall back on if things fall short. I myself have gone from Full-time to part-time in game development over three times because of financial issues. While this genre consists of perhaps the most dedicated group of fans anywhere, the raw numbers are simply not on the level of a Madden, Everquest or other first-person shooter action game. That's why you have to give enormous credit to people likr Jim and Markus that have put the blood, sweat, tears and peanut butter and jelly rations into achieving success ;)

I was talking with Farrah last night about this and she had an interesting idea. She is an accountant and they have numerous "associations" that help them network and grow the many independent accounting firms. I was wondering if at some point all the independent game developers should try and get together to help grow the genre. Maybe everyone would put in a certain amount and could use that for broader advertising (maybe even a "sports sim" booth at E3 at some point) to try and grow the genre. I don't even know that it would have to involve all that much money at first, just a manner of getting a group of developers together to really try and sell the genre to the numerous potential fans that have never heard of us. We could also open up membership to fans willing to help advance the cause as well.

I firmly believe that games like FOF, TPF, TDCB, FBCB are not competitors in the manner of a "Sony vs. Panasonic". I think of it more like different good restaurants. One night, you may want to go to the nice Italian food place, the next the nice Chinese food spot. Now, while some may gravitate towards a favorite place, they will often go to other restaurants depending on their mood. With this in mind, I think something like this could make the combined might of the independent sim genre (developers and the dedicated fans) something that may atleast hit the radar of more spots.

This was kind of the plan with the original .400 (atleast it was my idea of what .400 should be), but I think that it left out too many important members of the genre that had little reason to join in (FOF, FBB, Mogul and others). So, I don't know what the attractiveness of this would be to people like Jim, Derek, Brian, Shaun, Clay, Gary, Adam, or even fans, but it may be something to look at down the road.

I'll get off my "pie in the sky" cloud and back into the real world now ;)

[NoMyths]

In a way, but not really. You would have a voice, but I would still make the decisions....sort of like a stockholders meeting, in which you hold the majority of the stock. :)

It's just a simple business offer where you would see some long-term benefit for your money. No "kickback" business trips or luncheons or anything like that, sorry. :)I would definitely check with a lawyer about this. Good luck and all, but if there is an implied benefit for investment, you're getting into legal waters.

[NoMyths]

dola...

Kysrup, don't look now, but we're in complete agreement. ;)

[rkmsuf]

"DOWNLOADABLE"???????

is that a special word or something?

[Ksyrup]

dola...

Kysrup, don't look now, but we're in complete agreement. ;)Forget all of the legal stuff, this should be enough, in and of itself, to scare the pants off of Derek...:D

[Danny]

I'm not a legal expert, but this sounds like a bad idea to me.

Why not just encourage your loyal customers to buy extra copies of the games? Then they can give them away to a friend or do whatever they want with them.

Then separately you can start a new beta board in which you allow customers who have purchased games to discuss idea's.

[NoMyths]

Forget all of the legal stuff, this should be enough, in and of itself, to scare the pants off of Derek...:D:D

[druez]

"DOWNLOADABLE"???????

is that a special word or something?


You know what I mean. Do you really want to mail order a game? I mean the only reason I didn't buy FOF4 was the whole mail order thing.

I want instant game, because I'm an impulse buyer.

[DaddyTorgo]

Best of luck to you Derek. Keep us updated as to how things are going on and to whether or not this offer remains active and your status. I've wasted many an hour playing Intersteller Trader 2.

Just a thought, not saying you have to take it. It might help to silence some of the critics if you explained...what kind of circumstances you're facing/more of the reason for this. I'm not suggesting a nitty-gritty finanacial breakdown, but just something like "My cat/dog is in a coma and we have to pay the hospital bills in cash." Sympathy can be a powerful motivator. But, that's a personal decision and I suppose it really shouldn't affect whether or not people are willing to help you out. But then again, we (can I say we yet? I've been lurking for years) are a tight community here, and maybe there's something else someone can do to help in a more direct way. Even if it's like...a bake sale around where you live or whatever.

Just my $.02.

[gstelmack]

I was talking with Farrah last night about this and she had an interesting idea. She is an accountant and they have numerous "associations" that help them network and grow the many independent accounting firms. I was wondering if at some point all the independent game developers should try and get together to help grow the genre. Maybe everyone would put in a certain amount and could use that for broader advertising (maybe even a "sports sim" booth at E3 at some point) to try and grow the genre. I don't even know that it would have to involve all that much money at first, just a manner of getting a group of developers together to really try and sell the genre to the numerous potential fans that have never heard of us. We could also open up membership to fans willing to help advance the cause as well.
There is already a lot of this going on with IGDA and GDC. You might want to look up what they're doing (Indy games showcases, rookie studio spotlights, etc).

[digamma]

The folks at SC may have this already covered, and if so, good for them, but being a lawyer, the first thing that popped into my head - particularly when I got to the part about certain levels of contributions entitling people to an ownership interest in the company - is whether the company is aware of, has complied with, and/or has been exempted from the SEC's regulations governing securities offerings.

This isn't my specific area, although I've dabbled in it from time-to-time, and the rules are fairly complex (and on top of the Feds, there is some overlapping state jurisdiction as well), but even for what appears to be a small offering like this, most of the potential exemptions require filings with the SEC or satisfaction of very specific criteria about the types of investors, securities, and advertising that can be done legally without registration.

Here's a good primer straight from the Feds:

http://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/qasbsec.htm


Again, this concern may be moot, and SC may have run all of this by counsel qualified to opine on SEC matters (which I don't consider myself :) ), but I thought I'd throw it out there for them to see, if in fact this hasn't occurred to them. The very basic question asked above - "So what happens if say.. someone gives money.. and they don't get enough money to continue?" - can be the basis for a lawsuit down the road if things don't go well for the company.

Just a helpful FYI.
This was my first thought as well. There are a lot of exemptions that permit general solicitations, however, you have to know the audience of your solicitation fairly well.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

There is already a lot of this going on with IGDA and GDC. You might want to look up what they're doing (Indy games showcases, rookie studio spotlights, etc).

They do, and they do a great job at it. I was thinking more along the lines of an association for the sim developer. Just seems to me that the more EA and 989 focus on either acquiring code from games like ours or on making better game engines, we will have missed the opportunity to grow the sim market. And I worry that small developers like Arlie will be pushed out of the market.

[StormcloudCreations]

You know what I mean. Do you really want to mail order a game? I mean the only reason I didn't buy FOF4 was the whole mail order thing.

I want instant game, because I'm an impulse buyer.

Well, I would have offered it downloadable, but Shrapnel seems to feel getting the box and stuff is an added benefit. I've found many people to be more like you: impulse buyers who want their game right away. :)

Daddy Torgo: Oh believe me, I wouldn't EVER do this to make up ground from poor sales or the like. It wouldn't be my customers responsibility to bail me out from lousy sales, and I know that. This offer will remain open as long as possible. It is personal stuff (my "real" job problems, my fiancee's real job problems and new job, which will require a somewhat expensive move soon, etc), so it's more personal related than "company" related. And i'm not asking for huge sums; even $5 would be quite welcome. :)

Of course, buying more copies of my games are welcome "contributions" too, as several have pointed out. Especially Voyager (since I see more money from that than from the others). :D

[digamma]

Correct Samdari...I am in no way offering "stock" or even partnerships really. Just a special deal and an encouragment for people who want to kick in more, rather than just "thanks for the money, see ya!". People who do this would simply be entitled to FREE games of ours for a long time, a prominent and loud voice in our future and what we should tackle from now on, very first peeks at new stuff, before anyone else sees them (and whether its worth the time to develop, in some cases) and a little share of our profits on occasion. I am not offering any form of active management partnership, or any type of shares or stock.
For what it is worth (and to follow up on KSyurp's and my earlier post (I didn't read the whole thread before initially responding)), the most commonly accepted definition of a "security" is an investment of money in a common enterprise through which you expect to receive profits solely through the enterprise of others.

[Buzzbee]

Just my $.02.

Send it to Derek instead of posting it here!!!


:p

[Blackadar]

Send it to Derek instead of posting it here!!!


:p


Simply brutal. :)

[StormcloudCreations]

Send it to Derek instead of posting it here!!!


:p

Exactly! :D If everyone who has chipped in comments, legal advice (off, since the primary definition of a security or a stockholder is the pure intent is of making money from the enterprises of others, not the case here) or little sideways potshots at my stuff, or even read this thread had chipped in a few bucks, this discussion would be moot and i'd be able to keep going about 10 more years. :)

[rkmsuf]

two words:

tote bags

[digamma]

legal advice (off, since the primary definition of a security or a stockholder is the pure intent is of making money from the enterprises of others, not the case here) :)
I wouldn't base my comfort on the simple definition of a security. There are books of case law on this topic, and it isn't a cut and dry argument. I agree with KSyrup that you should really be working with an attorney.

[Ben E Lou]

Well, I would have offered it downloadable, but Shrapnel seems to feel getting the box and stuff is an added benefit. I've found many people to be more like you: impulse buyers who want their game right away. :)Another reason to be concerned, Derek. Druez and I are in agreement on this point. ;)

Let me explain my logic on this. For baseball and football games, I'm pretty much an automatic sale. Jim, Markus, Arlie, Clay and whoever else can pretty much count on my dollars as long as they don't *really* screw up continually. (Even as bad as things have gotten with Mogul, BM2K5 is the first version of that game that I haven't bought...and I probably will eventually...) However, there are other games that I'm in the "might buy" category--and yours would fit into that. "Might buys" are games that I'm not necessarily expecting huge amounts of play-time out of, but that might get purchased on a boring weekend. If I'm bored, and know it is going to be slow at work and at home for a few days/weeks, then I might just say, "Hmmmm...I wonder what's out there that I can play RIGHT NOW." (My purchases of both CAD, FBCB, President Forever and FBB all happened exactly this way, if I recall.) Honestly, I would have considered one of your games during one of those lulls, but given the option of downloadable (best) vs. fight-the-crowd-at-the-mall-but-have-it-in-30-minutes (2nd best) vs. mail-order-and-have-it-in-three-days (worst), the mail order game is going to get pushed to the bottom of the list every single time for me. From a business perspective, if you're needing to expand your customer base (which it sounds like you do), it seems logical to me that the most efficient way to do that would be to do things that would turn "might buy" guys like me into "likely purchasers." The guys who *really* want a gladiator sim are gonna buy Colliseum whether it is download or CD, but many of the "might buy" people will go with something that we can play immediately.

Just my $0.02.

--Ben

[StormcloudCreations]

SkyDog: I completely agree with you! I've been a huge supporter of downloadable internet stuff for a long time, and believe its truly the future for smaller companies and publishers, due to the ever shrinking profits and shelf space at the retail end of things. It's Shrapnel's call at this point, not mine.

Wow you and him agreeing...I truly have turned the world topsy-turvy! :)

[Bee]

Hey Derek...have you looked at Totalgaming.net as a potential place to sell your games? I get the feeling that your games might fit in well there.

Not really related to what you are doing now, but more of a general question.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was wondering if at some point all the independent game developers should try and get together to help grow the genre.

FWIW, what you just described is the "co-op" scenario that I personally always thought was the best possible model for .400/someone.

Basically, you enjoy some of the benefits of being part of a bigger organization without without losing so much of the autonomy that seems to produce better products & happier designers.

Just my .02 worth,
Jon

[Arles]

FWIW, what you just described is the "co-op" scenario that I personally always thought was the best possible model for .400/someone.

Basically, you enjoy some of the benefits of being part of a bigger organization without without losing so much of the autonomy that seems to produce better products & happier designers.

Just my .02 worth,
Jon
I think, in all honesty, it would almost have to involve little financial investment to begin with. It could start out trying to leverage the skills in the association (maybe someone is in marketing, someone else works for a paper, we have some developers and so forth). Then, once it starts gaining some steam, we could look at broadening the financial committment and starting to use it to really get the word out on the genre.

I think this would be separate from a ".400" per say, as this I would like this to be open to anyone (developers, fans, friends) that wants to give some of their time with the goal of growing the genre and the association would never really turn a profit, it would be more of a zero sum organization with very little revenue but more time and effort from its members. Kind of similar to a grass-roots political campaign.

[Buzzbee]

Exactly! :D If everyone who has chipped in comments, legal advice (off, since the primary definition of a security or a stockholder is the pure intent is of making money from the enterprises of others, not the case here) or little sideways potshots at my stuff, or even read this thread had chipped in a few bucks, this discussion would be moot and i'd be able to keep going about 10 more years. :)

Is that an example of how suggestions by "investors" will be handled? You have two people, who are active lawyers and have passed exams to certify their knowledge of the law, suggesting you look into legal advice. Yet you casually ignore their suggestions because you think you know better.

Thanks, but I'll keep my $0.02.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think, in all honesty, it would almost have to involve little financial investment to begin with.

Alas, most things worth a darn have that requirement pretty early in the process ;)

I think this would be separate from a ".400" per say

Most certainly different from the way .400 was structured/evolved/whatevertherightword should be.

I just thought I'd give you a little positive feedback, especially since what you were talking about is something that I've thought was an underutilized approach for quite a while now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is that an example of how suggestions by "investors" will be handled? You have two people, who are active lawyers and have passed exams to certify their knowledge of the law, suggesting you look into legal advice. Yet you casually ignore their suggestions because you think you know better.
Thanks, but I'll keep my $0.02.

FWIW, I'm glad to see I'm not the only who the same sort of reaction to the post in question.

[Ben E Lou]

I just thought I'd give you a little positive feedbackDang, now I gotta go check IP's and see if I can figure out who stole Jon's password. :mad:

[Ben E Lou]

;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

;)

Jerk
:D

[NoMyths]

FWIW, I'm glad to see I'm not the only who the same sort of reaction to the post in question.My God...for the first time ever, I'm in complete agreement with Jon. :eek:

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

There's a lot of agreeing going on here. It must be in the water.

[sachmo71]

There's a lot of agreeing going on here. It must be in the water.

Lots of quotation marks, too, but I attribute that to the food.

[Castlerock]

We need a poll.

[GrantDawg]

As to a hairpiece... thanks but no thanks. I like being bald... or so I tell myself as I cry myself to sleep at night.
You and me both brother. You and me both. :)

[GrantDawg]

I need a poll.
And there we begin to disagree.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

And there we begin to disagree.

Phew, good to see things are getting back to normal. I was getting worried.

[SlapBone]

Another reason to be concerned, Derek. Druez and I are in agreement on this point. ;)




Am I talking to the right base???

-Sarge

[Ksyrup]

Is that an example of how suggestions by "investors" will be handled? You have two people, who are active lawyers and have passed exams to certify their knowledge of the law, suggesting you look into legal advice. Yet you casually ignore their suggestions because you think you know better.

Thanks, but I'll keep my $0.02.
I don't think either of us claim to have specialized knowledge of securities law, and I'm not offering any legal advice - my posts are just a general "I know this stuff is out there so you might want to talk to someone who knows more about it than you or I do" suggestion. If he's comfortable with the position he's taken, so be it. I'm not making any money out of the deal either way, so...:D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Am I talking to the right base???

-Sarge

It doesn't matter, since I believe all of your base are belong to us.

[StormcloudCreations]

I don't think either of us claim to have specialized knowledge of securities law, and I'm not offering any legal advice - my posts are just a general "I know this stuff is out there so you might want to talk to someone who knows more about it than you or I do" suggestion. If he's comfortable with the position he's taken, so be it. I'm not making any money out of the deal either way, so...:D

Oh I understand and appreciate your words...I didn't mean to come off as a know-it-all. :)

I did briefly consult with a corporate attorney beforehand, of couse, and basically the interpretation is that "a security or investment only becomes so when there's a solid, reasonable expectation of monetary or solid, tangible reward involved in the transfer of monies to a corporate or company for the sole purpose of divestment into mutual corporate interests" (whew!) He did suggest that any monetary rewards be removed eventually, to avoid small-meal legal word wrangling, which is fine.

That primary expectation isn't present here, really, and i'm not advertising it as an "investment" or promising large amounts of money or anything like that. The primary benefit is that you'll get deep inside input and info about upcoming stuff, before anyone else even sees it, and some free downloadable games possibly (and the assumedly good feeling that you were directly involved in keeping an indie company around when it might not have been otherwise). Now, some might not care about that, and that's their right of course.

[Blackadar]

My God...for the first time ever, I'm in complete agreement with Jon. :eek:

Jon, Buzzbee, NoMyths and Blackadar all agreeing on a point.

It an Apocalypse sign.

[StormcloudCreations]

Jon, Buzzbee, NoMyths and Blackadar all agreeing on a point.

It an Apocalypse sign.

Just call me "Uniter of Men" (can I add that to my name underneath my posts somehow?) :D

[Ben E Lou]

Just call me "Uniter of Men" (can I add that to my name underneath my posts somehow?) :D;)

[Franklinnoble]

;)
See... careful what you wish for...

**Am I the only one that thinks "Uniter of Men" sounds like the title of a gay sex accessory?**

[StormcloudCreations]

Uh oh...I got what I wished for. :) Now all I have to do is find out what SkyDog's name means (H.N.I.C?) and i'll be set.

PS: Yes, Franklinnoble I think you're the only one who thinks that. :)

[Buzzbee]

Jon, Buzzbee, NoMyths and Blackadar all agreeing on a point.

It an Apocalypse sign.

I'm assuming you haven't been to the IHOF polling booth recently. ;)

Well, our agreement was fun while it lasted. Now, excuse me, I've got to go shower. I feel dirty.

[sovereignstar]

"Tasting Bile" (can I add that to my name underneath my posts somehow?)

[Danny]

Uh oh...I got what I wished for. :) Now all I have to do is find out what SkyDog's name means (H.N.I.C?) and i'll be set.

PS: Yes, Franklinnoble I think you're the only one who thinks that. :)

Head . N . In . Charge

[korme]

Head
Nubian
In
Charge

[NoMyths]

Head
Nubian
In
Charge[jasonleevox]
What's a Nubian?
[/jlv]

[rkmsuf]

Brand Nubian?

[korme]

Check this shit. You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!