400 being held hostage in Russian School

[GrantDawg]

<!--StartFragment --> Hundreds Held In Russian School
MOSCOW, Sept. 1, 2004


More than a dozen militants wearing suicide-bomb belts seized a southern Russian school in a region bordering Chechnya on Wednesday, taking hostage about 400 people — half of them children — and threatening to blow up the building if police storm it. At least eight people have been killed, one of them a school parent.

It was the first day of classes at the school, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth. The gunmen stormed in during a school-wide assembly and the deaths occurred in the chaos that followed. The attackers claim the building is booby-trapped and put small children at windows to discourage Russian security forces from considering a shootout.

In a tense standoff, Russian forces wearing camouflage and carrying heavy-caliber machine guns took up positions on the perimeter of Middle School No. 1 in the town of Belsan, 10 miles north of the regional capital of Vladikavkaz. About 1,000 people, mostly parents, were massed outside demanding information and accusing the government of failing to protect their children.

Hours after the crisis began, a security official said authorities had established contact with the hostage-takers. Regional Federal Security Service chief Valery Andreyev said on NTV television that negotiations "are just, just beginning" and that brief contact had not allowed authorities to evaluate the situation in the school.

The attack was the latest blamed on secessionist Chechen rebels, coming a day after a suicide bomber killed 10 people in the capital and a week after near-simultaneous explosions blamed on terrorists caused two Russian planes to crash, killing all 90 people on board. The surge in violence was apparently timed around last Sunday's Chechen presidential election.

President Vladimir Putin interrupted his working holiday Wednesday in the Black Sea resort of Sochi for a second time and returned to Moscow. On arrival at the airport, he held an immediate meeting with the heads of Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service, the Interfax news agency said.

The standoff began after a ceremony marking the first day of the Russian school year, when it was likely that many parents had accompanied their children. About 17 militants, men and women, stormed the school and herded captives into the gymnasium. They forced children to stand at the windows and warned they would blow up the school if police intervened, said Alexei Polyansky, a police spokesman for southern Russia.

The ITAR-Tass news agency, citing local hospitals, reported that seven people died of injuries in the hospital and one was killed at the site during the seizure. Regional emergency workers told The Associated Press that two bodies were visible near the school, which has grades one through 11.

Fatima Khabalova, spokeswoman for the regional parliament, earlier said one of the dead was a father who brought his child to the school and was shot when he tried to resist the raiders. She also said at least nine people had been injured in gunfire after the hostage-taking, including three teachers and two police officers.

Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the region's Interior Ministry, said that the hostages have threatened "for every destroyed fighter, they will kill 50 children and for every injured fighter — 20 (children)," the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.

At one point, a girl wearing a floral print dress and a red bow in her hair apparently fled from the school, her hand held by a flak-jacketed soldier. An older woman followed them. Ruslan Ayamov, spokesman for North Ossetia's Interior Ministry told The Associated Press that 12 children and one adult managed to escape after hiding in the building's boiler room.

"I was standing near the gates, music was playing, when I saw three armed people running with guns. At first I though it was a joke when they fired in the air and we fled," a teenager, Zarubek Tsumartov, said on Russian television.

Suspicion in both the school attack and the Moscow bombing fell on Chechen rebels or their sympathizers, but there was no evidence of any direct link. "In essence, war has been declared on us, where the enemy is unseen and there is no front," Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said.

The latest violence came around last Sunday's presidential elections in Chechnya, a Kremlin-backed move aimed at undermining support for the insurgents by establishing a modicum of civil order in the war-shattered republic. The previous Chechen president, Akhmad Kadyrov, was killed along with more than 20 others in a bombing on May 9.

The militants inside the school released one hostage with a list of their demands, including the freedom of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June, ITAR-Tass reported.

They also seek talks with regional officials and a well-known pediatrician, Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002, news reports said.

Parents of the seized children recorded a videocassette appeal to Putin asking him to fulfill the terrorists' demands, Khabalova said. The text of the appeal was not immediately available.

The violence was the latest to plague the government of Putin, who came to power vowing to crush the Chechen rebellion. Terrorism fears in Russia have risen markedly following the plane crashes and the suicide bombing outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday night. The blast by a female attacker tore through a busy area between the station and a department store, killing 10 people and wounded more than 50.

A militant Muslim web site published a statement claiming responsibility for the bombing on behalf of the "Islambouli Brigades," a group that also claimed responsibility for the airliner crashes. The statements could not immediately be verified.

Several female suicide bombers allegedly connected with the rebels have caused carnage in Moscow and other Russian cities in a series of attacks in recent years.

Many of the women bombers are believed to be so-called "black widows," who have lost husbands or male relatives in the fighting that has gripped Chechnya for most of the past decade. Investigators of the plane crashes are seeking information about two Chechen women believed to have been aboard — one on each plane.

[JeeberD]

Hopefully they have Sean Astin and Wil Weaton inside...

http://www.townsend-outlook.com/movie_reviews/dvd_archives/toy_soldiers/

[GrantDawg]

Hopefully they have Sean Astin and Wil Weaton inside...

http://www.townsend-outlook.com/movie_reviews/dvd_archives/toy_soldiers/
Wow. Good thing you can laugh at a thing like this.

[GrantDawg]

Strange. The BBC is reporting 150 hostages. Is the American press overstating (not that 150 is a small number)?

[Masked]

The article I read on CNN says that one Russian news source (interfax?) is reporting about 100 and another (state TV) about 300 hostages. That is likely the source for the conflicting numbers.

[HornedFrog Purple]

If the Russian forces use the same protocol as in instances past, there is going to be a lot of lives lost.

[GoldenEagle]

Eight lives already?

I really hate terrorists.

[Franklinnoble]

Wow. Good thing you can laugh at a thing like this.
Yeah... I mean, I could see mentioning Sean Astin, and mabe Louis Gossett, Jr., but Wil Wheaton? Come on, man...

[yabanci]

Hopefully they have Sean Astin and Wil Weaton inside...

http://www.townsend-outlook.com/movie_reviews/dvd_archives/toy_soldiers/

Schoolchildren are about to be slaughtered and you feel compelled try and make cute little jokes about it. You are pathetic and truly make me sick.

[Franklinnoble]

You are a Dallas Cowboys fan. You are pathetic and truly make me sick.
Easier that way...

[sachmo71]

Schoolchildren are about to be slaughtered and you feel compelled try and make cute little jokes about it. You are pathetic and truly make me sick.

Maybe try letting people deal with things in their own way?

This is the ultimate no-win situation in for Russia. They can't give in to them, but if these animals kill these kids...bah.

My only thought is this: Will the terrorists ever reach thier lowest point? I mean, attacking civilians in a building without warning, or bombing a wedding is horrible enough, but for some reason can be acceptable to them in the name of their fucking cause. But these are just kids!

[yabanci]

Maybe try letting people deal with things in their own way?
...

Sure, when your child is murdered we will "deal with it" by making flippant jokes about it.

[sachmo71]

Sure, when your child is murdered we will "deal with it" by making flippant jokes about it.


Just relax a little, ok? That's all I'm saying.

[rkmsuf]

Just because Jeeber was flippant and was out roasting marshmallows while Waco was burning down is no reason to get all excited.

[JeeberD]

Actually I was eating pizza and watching coverage with my next door neighbor. Seriously...

Sorry if you found my little joke offensive, I was just trying to add a little levity to a very bad situation. If you think I find 400 people being held hostage by terrorists to be funny then you don't know much about me...

[JonInMiddleGA]

My only thought is this: Will the terrorists ever reach thier lowest point?

Only when they're six feet under.

[JonInMiddleGA]

New AP headline now says 2 deaths so far ...

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20040901/D84R2FHO2.html

"There were conflicting casualty reports.

ITAR-Tass, citing local hospitals, said one person died at the scene and seven in hospitals. Dzgoyev put the death toll at four, and the Federal Security Service chief for North Ossetia, Valery Andreyev, later said two civilians were killed and two wounded."

[QuikSand]

How does this, and the other things we have seen in Chechnya recently, fit into our "war on terror?" It's pretty clear that there exists a sizable number of terrorists who engage on behalf of Chechen independence. Are we likely to become engaged in a place like that?

Or am I missing the understood modifier of "(Islamic)" in the phrase "War on Terror" as commonly used?

[Ben E Lou]

Or am I missing the understood modifier of "(Islamic)" in the phrase "War on Terror" as commonly used?I think you are, and I wish Dubya & Company had the guts to just say it.

The fact of the matter is that we are at war with Islamic Extremism. Call a spade a spade and throw the freakin' politics out the door for once, dadgummit! :mad:

[sabotai]

Are we likely to become engaged in a place like that?

Or am I missing the understood modifier of "(Islamic)" in the phrase "War on Terror" as commonly used?

First question: No.

Second: I don't think so. I think our "War On Terror" only involves terrorists that threaten us, not other countries (Or else we would have done something about Chechnya and Russia by now, even if it was a few bucks sent to the Russians. "Here's $50 bucks, buy a gun that shoots straight" or something liek that). I don't think them being Islamic matters as much as "do they threaten us?" And if they don't, the targeted country is on their own.

[Suicane75]

How does this, and the other things we have seen in Chechnya recently, fit into our "war on terror?" It's pretty clear that there exists a sizable number of terrorists who engage on behalf of Chechen independence. Are we likely to become engaged in a place like that?

Or am I missing the understood modifier of "(Islamic)" in the phrase "War on Terror" as commonly used?


I think the thing you're missing is oil. Plain and simple.

[Solecismic]

I would hope that the "war" includes anyone who chooses terrorism as a political tool, whether it's Islamic Extremists or groups like Timothy McVeigh's.

While it seems that the lion's share of it right now is coming from one particular religious group, any extreme group is dangerous.

[rkmsuf]

I would hope that the "war" includes anyone who chooses terrorism as a political tool, whether it's Islamic Extremists or groups like Timothy McVeigh's.

While it seems that the lion's share of it right now is coming from one particular religious group, any extreme group is dangerous.


TCY2...I knew it!

[sachmo71]

Only when they're six feet under.


You propose to defeat terrorism by killing the terrorists?

[albionmoonlight]

Or am I missing the understood modifier of "(Islamic)" in the phrase "War on Terror" as commonly used?
Perhaps I am feeling charitable toward the unwashed masses, but I'll go ahead and try to articulate somewhat of a rational basis to our approach.

We (meaning those behind the "war on terror") are really against terror that we perceive as detrimental to our personal safety.1

Right now, we perceive Muslims, Arabs, etc. as presenting a threat to us, so they are the "terrorists" with whom we are at war. It's not that we hate Muslims more than Chechens. We just see them as a threat, while we don't see Chechen rebels as a threat.

If tomorrow the Chechens attack America, I imagine that we'll go smack them around too.

1. See also, e.g., our sinful neglect of the crisis in Sudan mere months after we felt a need to "liberate the Iraqi people." It's not that we like Iraqi civilians more than those in Darfur--we just beleived that the leader of Iraq was a threat to our personal safety in a way that the Janjaweed are not.

[Huckleberry]

Man, if we eliminated all the posts containing poor taste from internet message boards, the place would be a barren wasteland.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You propose to defeat terrorism by killing the terrorists?

Absolutely. There is nothing else that will work as completely.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Or am I missing the understood modifier of "(Islamic)" in the phrase "War on Terror" as commonly used?

Although I most often feel a lot like the sentiments SkyDog expressed, more careful consideration leads me to an answer of "Sort of" to your question.

I don't really believe it's a matter of "only", it's just a matter of "them first".

[sachmo71]

Absolutely. There is nothing else that will work as completely.


I remember now. No use beating a dead horse.

[clintl]

Does no one here know that the Chechens are Muslims? "Islamic" can't possibly be a differing characteristic in how the US contrasts the Chechens from the groups we're fighting.

I think the answer is that because the Chechens are not targeting us, we aren't particularly concerned with them, and the Russians would rather handle the Chechens themselves, so they're not asking us for military help.

[John Galt]

1. See also, e.g., our sinful neglect of the crisis in Sudan mere months after we felt a need to "liberate the Iraqi people." It's not that we like Iraqi civilians more than those in Darfur--we just beleived that the leader of Iraq was a threat to our personal safety in a way that the Janjaweed are not.

I just want to reply to the footnote. I can't believe we have let the horror of Sudan slide while we are busy in Iraq. Not only is the human rights situation magnitudes worse than it ever was in Iraq (especially now that the mass graves in Iraq were vastly overestimated), but Sudan has long protected Al Qaeda in ways that Iraq never considered (hence the stupid bombings by the Clinton administration). Why Iraq before Sudan is a question that really gives ugly answers, IMO.

[Ben E Lou]

Although I most often feel a lot like the sentiments SkyDog expressed, more careful consideration leads me to an answer of "Sort of" to your question.

I don't really believe it's a matter of "only", it's just a matter of "them first".Oh, come on. If Dubya is re-elected, and the repubs when again in '08, we STILL wouldn't go after those who aren't going after us. The "War On Terror" is really a war against Islamic extremist terrorists--no matter what you call it.

[vtbub]

I think it would be a major swallowing of pride for the Russians if they asked us for help.

If we are to win the war on terror, it needs to be fought by the world. Capitulation and appeasement have not and never will work.

[Antmeister]

I just want to reply to the footnote. I can't believe we have let the horror of Sudan slide while we are busy in Iraq. Not only is the human rights situation magnitudes worse than it ever was in Iraq (especially now that the mass graves in Iraq were vastly overestimated), but Sudan has long protected Al Qaeda in ways that Iraq never considered (hence the stupid bombings by the Clinton administration). Why Iraq before Sudan is a question that really gives ugly answers, IMO.


Good post and never mind the fact that we didn't even accomplish our first task of finding Osama bin Laden. I am actually surpised by a lot of posts that mentions that we only target those that threaten us. If that were the case, why not target the Saudis(which a large number of the terrorists were) North Korea (which threatened to use a nuclear bomb against us), or even the Phillipines (which is where some terrorist camps exist).

[John Galt]

I think it would be a major swallowing of pride for the Russians if they asked us for help.

If we are to win the war on terror, it needs to be fought by the world. Capitulation and appeasement have not and never will work.

Why do you believe the only options are fighting or appeasement? Aren't there many other available policy choices? Why do proponents of the war have to portray opponents as supporting appeasement? Wouldn't that be the same as portraying all anti-appeasement people as warmongers?

[Franklinnoble]

I thought this was going to be a thread about the further demise of .400 studios...

[Suicane75]

I thought this was going to be a thread about the further demise of .400 studios...


I was gonna make the same reply, but i didn't wanna get yelled at. I'm girly sometimes.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

How does this, and the other things we have seen in Chechnya recently, fit into our "war on terror?" It's pretty clear that there exists a sizable number of terrorists who engage on behalf of Chechen independence. Are we likely to become engaged in a place like that?


Russia already got their "war on terror" payoff with Chechnya. Prior to the "war on terror" the US, along with many other nations, strongly condemned Russia's actions in Chechnya. Once they agreed to go along with our war, we let them get on with theirs.

[Glengoyne]

I think you are, and I wish Dubya & Company had the guts to just say it.

The fact of the matter is that we are at war with Islamic Extremism. Call a spade a spade and throw the freakin' politics out the door for once, dadgummit! :mad:
I was actually under the impression these were Islamic terrorists, they just have a slightly different agenda. I guess I have a wide interpretation of terrorists. I don't care what your political agenda is, if you are targetting innocents with violence, you are a terrorist. These folks, as I understand it are muslim, so I don't see why they wouldn't be Islamic terrorists. Albeit they are fighting for their independence.

[Maple Leafs]

Why do you believe the only options are fighting or appeasement? Aren't there many other available policy choices?Which ones do you think would be most effective?

[Dutch]

I didn't expect this to turn into your typical "Let's bash Dubya and the USA!!!" threads. You guys do surprise me from time to time.

[Danny]

I didn't expect this to turn into your typical "Let's bash Dubya and the USA!!!" threads. You guys do surprise me from time to time.

There are just as many posts supporting Bush's war on terrorism, but those are ok I guess?

[sterlingice]

There are just as many posts supporting Bush's war on terrorism, but those are ok I guess?
Well, Dutch is always one to stay above partisan rhetoric.

SI

[Dutch]

Well, Dutch is always one to stay above partisan rhetoric.

SI

Another twist in the thread about Russian hostages is that now I have to defend myself for being so partisan. How did that happen! :)

[sabotai]

A lot of posts must be invisible for me because I don't see any Bush or USA bashing at all...

[Ben E Lou]

I was actually under the impression these were Islamic terrorists, they just have a slightly different agenda. I guess I have a wide interpretation of terrorists. I don't care what your political agenda is, if you are targetting innocents with violence, you are a terrorist. These folks, as I understand it are muslim, so I don't see why they wouldn't be Islamic terrorists. Albeit they are fighting for their independence.Terrorists, yes. Extremists, no.

[Mac Howard]

>Why Iraq before Sudan is a question that really gives ugly answers, IMO.

A simple, not-so-ugly answer of course, is that Iraq occurred before Sudan. But assuming that you're referring to justifications rather than timescales then we must include the ugly answer that US forces will not interfere in the situation in Sudan precisely because of the politically inspired criticism of the interference in Iraq ;)

[Dutch]

Good point, Mac.

[Suicane75]

>Why Iraq before Sudan is a question that really gives ugly answers, IMO.

A simple, not-so-ugly answer of course, is that Iraq occurred before Sudan. But assuming that you're referring to justifications rather than timescales then we must include the ugly answer that US forces will not interfere in the situation in Sudan precisely because of the politically inspired criticism of the interference in Iraq ;)

Good point, Mac.


Yeah, that's the reason. :rolleyes:

[Mac Howard]

Amongst others! I'm merely showing that not all the ugly answers are against the pro-war community ;)

[tucker342]

What an incredibly sad story:(

[sterlingice]

And, of course, the top stories on the three major news outlets:

CNN: Kobe
Fox: GOP Convention
MSNBC: Kobe

[sterlingice]

Another twist in the thread about Russian hostages is that now I have to defend myself for being so partisan. How did that happen! :)
Gee? I don't know how. Must be just as accidental that your first post was also a partisan shot. I could be wrong, tho. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

SI

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Let's pray for the safe return of those hostages and a change of hearts from the terrorists.

[Axxon]

Schoolchildren are about to be slaughtered and you feel compelled try and make cute little jokes about it. You are pathetic and truly make me sick.

As someone who has dealt with grief councellors after watching three people burn to death, I can say that humor is considered a stress reliever and not at all a wrong or inappropriate reaction ( if it's indeed a reaction and not a calculated action ). It's not how everyone deals with stress or tragedy but for some it is.

I've also worked in an emergency room and if you don't think the staff uses humor to avoid burning out and losing their mind then you haven't got a clue. It isn't a sign of disrespect, it's a coping mechanism.

I was with a group when we saw the fire and everyone in that group ( it happened at work ), bar none, made some corny jokes and we all felt like crap about it because we didn't know any better. Hey, one of us almost was caught in the same accident and only fate spared his life. He cracked a joke or two too. We assumed something must be wrong with us but fact is, nope, there was nothing wrong with it. It helped us cope with the horrible reality of what we'd seen and kept us going for the rest of the day.

Of course, we all knew how we felt. We'd had to work through this and there were many many moments of stunned silence, some crying and a lot of heated moments too as emotions came out as temper but no one who looked at what we did that day as we undertook the task of trying to do our jobs and assist every one else in doing theirs would have considered us pathetic or that we made them sick.

Well, you might have. I don't know you. You do go on and wish for a childs murder just so you can test someones belief about this issue but of course, that's not an asshole move to an order of magnatude greater than cracking a harmless joke on an internet site halfway across the world and of no real interest to the victims is it?

[GrantDawg]

Let's pray for the safe return of those hostages and a change of hearts from the terrorists.
Agreed. I don't think anything hits home with me more than children in danger. The political ramifications of this is less important to me than the safe return of as many of these kids as possible.

And Axxon, I do grief counseling too, and understand gallows homour, but the jokes at the start of this thread were inapprioprate. There is just nothing funny about this situation, and that was more "look at me! look at me!" than trying to somehow ease the tension.

[John Galt]

Which ones do you think would be most effective?

I'm done defending solutions, but there are many, many options besides appeasement and invasion.

[Ben E Lou]

And, of course, the top stories on the three major news outlets:

CNN: Kobe
Fox: GOP Convention
MSNBC: KobeAmerican news outlets exist to make a profit, and they know that, sadly enough, in terms of what most Americans truly care about, Kobe comes before a convention of a major American political party, which comes before a hostage crisis in Russia. :(

[clintl]

To add to that, when in recent memory have the major American news outlets made any international story not directly involving the US the top priority? It almost never happens. Look at Darfur, where even worse things are going almost every day. For whatever reason (and it's probably some pretty accurate market research), the American media has concluded that Americans don't much care what happens outside US borders. I had a roommate from England for several years who commented on this all the time, and contrasted it with the way the British media cover world events.

[GrantDawg]

American news outlets exist to make a profit, and they know that, sadly enough, in terms of what most Americans truly care about, Kobe comes before a convention of a major American political party, which comes before a hostage crisis in Russia. :(
Yup, and excuse me while I blaspheme, but how it affect news media is one of the downsides of capitalism IMHO.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yup, and excuse me while I blaspheme, but how it affect news media is one of the downsides of capitalism IMHO.

But what's the alternative -- a public financed (i.e. government financed) system? Ultimately, somebody has to pay for it, and only the free market is equipped to do that in this country.

[Ben E Lou]

But what's the alternative -- a public financed (i.e. government financed) system? Ultimately, somebody has to pay for it, and only the free market is equipped to do that in this country.Right, and I think that's GD's point. It is a side effect of the system.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Right, and I think that's GD's point. It is a side effect of the system.

I guess what I'm not seeing is what possible alternative that offers overall improvement there is. Maybe it's semantics or something, I'm just not seeing this as a "capitalism side effect", I'm just seeing it as a "reality".

[bhlloy]

Once again, people ignore the premier news outlet worldwide the BBC, which a) is government financed and b) in a capitalist country. Yes, it wouldn't work in America. But it shows it CAN be done. And it is impartial.

[Ben E Lou]

I guess what I'm not seeing is what possible alternative that offers overall improvement there is.There isn't one. That's what he's lamenting.

Maybe it's semantics or something, I'm just not seeing this as a "capitalism side effect", I'm just seeing it as a "reality".Right. It is a reality, or side effect, of our system, whichever you want to call it.

[GrantDawg]

There isn't one. That's what he's lamenting.

Right. It is a reality, or side effect, of our system, whichever you want to call it.
Dead on.

[Fritz]

Am I the only one that expected to see something about Arles and Farrah here?

[mattwakeman]

Once again, people ignore the premier news outlet worldwide the BBC, which a) is government financed and b) in a capitalist country. Yes, it wouldn't work in America. But it shows it CAN be done. And it is impartial.

...ish. The BBC is funded because in this country if you want to watch the BBC then you have to pay for a license (which is currently £121 a year. Of course for that you also are paying for websites, digital and analogue radio). The British public pay for the BBC and one of the more interesting things to emerge directly after the Hutton Inquiry when the government was exonerated but the BBC was hammered was that after the initial finger-pointing the media (all aspects of it) went into absolute overdrive at the thought of the government taking an increased role in the running of the BBC. Bottom line is that we tend to believe the BBC and not Labour (not that this should come as any great surprise).

But I think an interesting point was made earlier about what the US media shows. Of course it is looking after its own financial well-being and people are always more intersted in what is happening to them or their countrymen (even if it is of a trivial nature) but when ever I have been to America I could never get over its extreme insularity. It is an easy (and sadly popular) stick to beat Americans with that international news is what happens in the next state and maybe one of the reasons for this is the death-grip that the bigger domestic channels have on the media coupled with the lack of national newspapers (in Britain we have about 15 national dailies as well as 5-6 Sunday papers).

[Franklinnoble]

Am I the only one that expected to see something about Arles and Farrah here?
No...

I thought this was going to be a thread about the further demise of .400 studios...

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Am I the only one that expected to see something about Arles and Farrah here?

For a split second I was wondering who we knew in Russia. ;)

On a positive note I saw on CNN that about 20 hostages were released - women and children. I hope more get released soon.

[Arles]

Good post and never mind the fact that we didn't even accomplish our first task of finding Osama bin Laden. I am actually surpised by a lot of posts that mentions that we only target those that threaten us. If that were the case, why not target the Saudis(which a large number of the terrorists were) North Korea (which threatened to use a nuclear bomb against us), or even the Phillipines (which is where some terrorist camps exist).
I think you have to look at the chance a country actually aggressively attack the US, their ability to grow into an uncontrollable power or the government continues to actively support the terrorists. Saddam fits all three as no one in the middle east had the history of aggression that Saddam did.

The Sudan continues to support terrorism on some levels (not as bad as the 90s though for the gov't), but they have never been aggressive in action and have little chance of growing into a massive power. Same with the Phillipines.

North Korea has no recent history of aggression, nor do the actively support terrorists in any siginificant number. However, they do have the potential to become a big power with their WMD.

It makes little sense to take massive military action against a country that doesn't atleast encompass two of the three factors above. And, you probably need all three in all honesty. And, I see no country that currently fits all three factors right now. Plus, I think you will see places like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Sudan and Syria have changes in their government's support of terrorism because of Iraq. The Saudis, Syrian and Jordanians have already turned an about face.

IMO, there was no way the middle east was ever going to respect the power of the US until they saw it firsthand. If you notice, Al Qaeda is no longer refering to the US as a "paper tiger". That will impact how other countries act.

Arlie

[Arles]

Am I the only one that expected to see something about Arles and Farrah here?
My ears were burning ;)

And, on the subject of the Russian children, our prayers are certainly with them. I just read that 31 have been released and my hope is that this was simply a political stunt and the rebels had no desire of ever harming the kids. Doing so would eliminate any chance at local support for their cause, in addition to the horror it would provide to the area.

[yabanci]

As someone who has dealt with grief councellors after watching three people burn to death, I can say that humor is considered a stress reliever and not at all a wrong or inappropriate reaction ( if it's indeed a reaction and not a calculated action ). It's not how everyone deals with stress or tragedy but for some it is.

I've also worked in an emergency room and if you don't think the staff uses humor to avoid burning out and losing their mind then you haven't got a clue. It isn't a sign of disrespect, it's a coping mechanism.

I was with a group when we saw the fire and everyone in that group ( it happened at work ), bar none, made some corny jokes and we all felt like crap about it because we didn't know any better. Hey, one of us almost was caught in the same accident and only fate spared his life. He cracked a joke or two too. We assumed something must be wrong with us but fact is, nope, there was nothing wrong with it. It helped us cope with the horrible reality of what we'd seen and kept us going for the rest of the day.

Of course, we all knew how we felt. We'd had to work through this and there were many many moments of stunned silence, some crying and a lot of heated moments too as emotions came out as temper but no one who looked at what we did that day as we undertook the task of trying to do our jobs and assist every one else in doing theirs would have considered us pathetic or that we made them sick.

Well, you might have. I don't know you. You do go on and wish for a childs murder just so you can test someones belief about this issue but of course, that's not an asshole move to an order of magnatude greater than cracking a harmless joke on an internet site halfway across the world and of no real interest to the victims is it?

You are comparing apples to oranges here. There is a difference between the situations you describe and somebody on a message board trying to show how cute he is by making flippant remarks about one of the most horrible and tragic events in a long time. Perhaps I take more offense to this than others because I have a personal connection to what is happening, but I can tell you one thing for sure -- if this same thing took place in South Carolina instead of South Russia, everybody would agree that joking about it is inappropriate, and I doubt you would come to the rescue to defend it.

Moreover, you seriously mischaracterize my post by saying that I "wished for a child's murder." I merely was responding to someone who thought making fun of the situation was an appropriate way to "deal with it" by pointing out that he certainly would feel differently if the shoe were on the other foot and his child was among the victims.

[Buccaneer]

I would hope that the "war" includes anyone who chooses terrorism as a political tool, whether it's Islamic Extremists or groups like Timothy McVeigh's.

While it seems that the lion's share of it right now is coming from one particular religious group, any extreme group is dangerous.
Then shouldn't the largest domestic terrorist group, the eco-terrorists of Earth First! et al, be high on the list?

[Axxon]

You are comparing apples to oranges here. There is a difference between the situations you describe and somebody on a message board trying to show how cute he is by making flippant remarks about one of the most horrible and tragic events in a long time. Perhaps I take more offense to this than others because I have a personal connection to what is happening, but I can tell you one thing for sure -- if this same thing took place in South Carolina instead of South Russia, everybody would agree that joking about it is inappropriate, and I doubt you would come to the rescue to defend it.

Moreover, you seriously mischaracterize my post by saying that I "wished for a child's murder." I merely was responding to someone who thought making fun of the situation was an appropriate way to "deal with it" by pointing out that he certainly would feel differently if the shoe were on the other foot and his child was among the victims.

First, I want to get this out of the way. I apologize for the "wished for a child's murder" line. I realized after I sent it that it was too much but I didn't have time to change it.

You could say that you pushed one of my buttons and I was really fighting to keep any of that out of the post but I didn't quite succeed.

Also, my hopes and best wishes go out to everyone suffering during this disaster and especially for any that you have suffering. It's an incredibly horrible act that to me is possibly the worst terrorist action to date.

Once they start deliberately attacking children they've crossed a boundary that we really didn't need anyone crossing. I guess the closest I've felt to this was the tylenol poisonings years ago.

Once you're hitting food supplies ( and children ) you're truly entering terror levels IMHO.

Now, the rest is a bit off topic but this discussion had made me put into words and clarify a feeling I've had for a while so as corny as it is, it is a self revelation/confession thing and it explains why I felt a button was pushed.

I can honestly say that the closest I've ever felt to experiencing God has been through humor. It provides me more comfort, more strength, more understanding and more desire to live than any prayer, hymn, statue, service or any other example I can find.

My God is a God of humor, of joy, of making us feel better and at the same time making us realize that we just can't take anything too seriously. I don't know how anyone can force themselves to get up in the morning if they take everything dead serious. I'm very sure I couldn't.

In a word, no, if someone made a joke ( and I mean a joke, not a hurtful or cruel statement with a haha so they can call it a joke )about some horrible period that I was experiencing for me, it would help. In this I feel I'm not alone as people often want to talk to me when they are going through bad times because they know I will make them feel better and humor is a big part of how I do it. Usually, not directly about what they are upset about granted but humor at supposedly "inappropriate" times.

Helping people at times like these is one of my favorite things to do and one of the few times where I actually can completely get over how I feel about people which is generally not so good. To me, it does remind me we are all in this together and really, in our own special way, we all suck.

I can even relate a very personal experience and one which to me I do believe God was involved in.

I was driving on Wade Hampton blvd ( for the locals benefit. for everyone else it's a very busy road divided by a median ) and it was raining. My car lost the road and started straight across the median. I had zero control over it in any way.

I looked up and saw that I was going to hit the other side basically seconds before the lead car of the pack crashed into my broadside and neither car had the ability to do anything to avoid it.

Finally ( of course it was mere seconds ) I just rested my hands on the steering wheel and said to myself "this is going to suck" and it made me laugh and relax and even though I honestly felt I was going to die or close enough that life as I knew it would cease to exist, I was calm, I was at peace with it, I felt close to God. It was an incredibly powerful moment in time.

One thing I didn't count on was the grass. The grass in the median hadn't been cut in a while so I didn't see that in my path was a drainage cover and my car hit the drainage cover and made a 45 or so degree turn putting me parallel to both roads and I coasted for a few feet and stopped. For this I am eternally grateful and yes, I feel that it was divine intervention and the feeling from right before I stopped was still there and words can't describe how I felt at that moment.

I still remember that feeling to this day and while I never specifically thought it I can say that my joke "this is going to suck" was my prayer. Some people would have used an actual prayer, some would have called for Gods help directly, others would have used something else but when it came to the most fundamental moment in my life, I used humor to get me through it.

That's powerful.

Your reaction that there are just some things you can't joke about and specifically in the second post that I would find humor offensive in some way if it was used on me really hit me personally. I know it was a misunderstanding of what you were feeling and I certainly can see how your buttons were pushed by your misunderstanding about where Jeeber was coming from.

I really wanted you to know though that there is a place for humor, not even but especially when things are at their worst.

Humor, like anything, can hurt just as much as it can help so certainly context and more importantly knowing the person who is making the joke makes a huge difference. I'd certainly say there are inappropriate things to say at times but I don't think a blanket "there are some things you can't joke about" is true for me though I'm sure it is for others.

If I can joke about my own impending demise then you surely can see I'm not being disingenious in stating that no topic is exactly off limits to me and that I wouldn't necessarily be mad if someone was joking about something happening to me or to someone who was near to me.

One final thing as we're off topic.

I saw this thread yesterday when I had just woken up. My first thought had nothing to do with the hostage situation. I truly saw the 400 and thought about .400 studios and thought, "man, what is going on with them now."

I didn't open the thread until way later and once I realized what it was actually about, I had to laugh about my initial sleep inspired confusion and thought briefly about posting that.

I decided not to almost at once. I didn't think it would be appropriate.

[MIJB#19]

Not much to add to the discussion, except that the images of the released hostages were horrible to watch.

[Axxon]

Thankfully it's over and didn't get worse. Once it boiled down to an invasion all bets were off but it appears that the Russian army did a superb job. I'm getting this from the BBC article btw.

[panerd]

And, of course, the top stories on the three major news outlets:

CNN: Kobe
Fox: GOP Convention
MSNBC: Kobe

We could be critical of the major news outlets, but take a look at just this board. (which I would consider to be a lot more educated and informed than the general public) Pictures of a hot teacher who possibly molested kids not only has about triple the posts of any other story, but is more of a joke thread than a condemnation.

[Axxon]

We could be critical of the major news outlets, but take a look at just this board. (which I would consider to be a lot more educated and informed than the general public) Pictures of a hot teacher who possibly molested kids not only has about triple the posts of any other story, but is more of a joke thread than a condemnation.

Well, in our defense we aren't responsible for bringing the news to the public. We're just a bunch of folks who like to get together and chit chat and most of us enjoy looking at attractive women.

I can't speak for anyone else but I know I'd be way more discerning about the threads I post in if I knew it was a standard that the board is being judged by.

When I want the news, I go to the news outlets. When I want to kick back and have fun, I come here. To try and hold us to any other standard is a HUGE reach.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't speak for anyone else but I know I'd be way more discerning about the threads I post in if I knew it was a standard that the board is being judged by.

When I want the news, I go to the news outlets. When I want to kick back and have fun, I come here. To try and hold us to any other standard is a HUGE reach.

I agree, to a point at least, but I believe Panerd makes a decent point.

If we were "a standard", or a primary source, I dare say a lot of us would be more discriminating about our posts ... but there'd also be a lot less posts.
And I don't mean just total post counts, I mean threads. And users.

[Axxon]

I agree, to a point at least, but I believe Panerd makes a decent point.

If we were "a standard", or a primary source, I dare say a lot of us would be more discriminating about our posts ... but there'd also be a lot less posts.
And I don't mean just total post counts, I mean threads. And users.

I agree with what you said above but I'm not sure how it ties into Panerd's point. Heck, maybe I missed Panerd's point. What is the point he made.

I saw it as more of a "the news outlets" are only giving us what we want and by looking at FOFC we can see what we want which isn't real news.

I take issue with this because this board member ( and countless others ) do go out and get the news I want and spend a lot of time reading and digesting real news. My coming here and maybe posting in the fluff threads ( I didn't post in it btw ) is NOT indicative of my view of news or what I expect or desire from them.

What point did you get?

[Apathetic Lurker]

I for one am happy that Russian troops stormed the building. It seems they dont monkey around too much. Spend a little time parlaying to get the extremists to become complacent then go in guns blazing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Heck, maybe I missed Panerd's point. What is the point he made.

Point? There was a point? :D

I saw it as more of a "the news outlets" are only giving us what we want and by looking at FOFC we can see what we want which isn't real news.


That was my read too, I think the difference comes in right about here:

My coming here and maybe posting in the fluff threads ( I didn't post in it btw ) is NOT indicative of my view of news or what I expect or desire from them.

I believe that, on the whole, it is an indicator -- not the only indicator, nor an overwhelming indictment or anything, but an indicator, of what will we're interested in discussing. Especially if you work from the premise that the group here is above-average on the whole -- if we are interested enough in the "fluff" to spend so much time on it, just imagine what "the masses" time distribution/interest is.

[Axxon]

Point? There was a point? :D



That was my read too, I think the difference comes in right about here:



I believe that, on the whole, it is an indicator -- not the only indicator, nor an overwhelming indictment or anything, but an indicator, of what will we're interested in discussing. Especially if you work from the premise that the group here is above-average on the whole -- if we are interested enough in the "fluff" to spend so much time on it, just imagine what "the masses" time distribution/interest is.

But I just don't see it. If I spend 5 hours a night reading online newspapers every night and 1 hour here at FOFC posting in trivial threads, how does my time at FOFC break down into "spending so much time on it?"

I'm not sure how you can accurately measure a persons interest with any accuracy with no idea of exactly how much time they're spending and on what they are spending it which would be really, really difficult to measure.

[Critch]

Reports now that over 100 dead bodies have been found in the school gym.

The final breakout wasn't part of a planned Russian assault, the shooting started when children started trying to escape while bodies were being cleared.

[Dutch]

Thankfully it's over, I think it's very sad that children had to die because of this.

[ColtCrazy]

And, of course, the top stories on the three major news outlets:

CNN: Kobe
Fox: GOP Convention
MSNBC: Kobe

This is exactly why if I want to find out what's going on in the world, I read the BBC's website. Great coverage. I stopped caring about Kobe months ago.

[sachmo71]

Those poor kids. Sometimes I wonder why I get up in the morning.

[MIJB#19]

Anyone else wondering why the number of hostages turned out to be 4 times the initial given figure?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anyone else wondering why the number of hostages turned out to be 4 times the initial given figure?

Just off the top of my head, and if that does indeed turn out to be the case,
I imagine the exact number was difficult if not impossible to get due to the fact that it was opening day for school.

IIRC, there were a large number of adults/parents/family members on hand for some sort of traditional first-day ceremony. And if the visitors extended beyond parents to other family members, a true count would have been pretty much impossible.

[Qwikshot]

This didn't end well.http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

[panerd]

Axxon/Jon-

My point was kind of a hybrid between how both of you inpreted it. I think that what we post about on this board are generally things that interest us. (Not a good or bad thing, not a stupid or intelligent thing, just a fact IMO) A larger percentage of the country seems to be more interested in NBA sex scandels and high profile murders than they are in mass genocide in Africa or Russian terrorism. I don't know that we can blame the media for this. I am sure you can find a station (PBS comes to mind) that does cover the "other" stories but CNN, Foxnews, etc. seems to be the ones pulling in the viewers.

My FOFC reference was just pointing out that even we seem to be more interested as a group in the sensational.

[Axxon]

Axxon/Jon-

My point was kind of a hybrid between how both of you inpreted it. I think that what we post about on this board are generally things that interest us. (Not a good or bad thing, not a stupid or intelligent thing, just a fact IMO) A larger percentage of the country seems to be more interested in NBA sex scandels and high profile murders than they are in mass genocide in Africa or Russian terrorism. I don't know that we can blame the media for this. I am sure you can find a station (PBS comes to mind) that does cover the "other" stories but CNN, Foxnews, etc. seems to be the ones pulling in the viewers.

My FOFC reference was just pointing out that even we seem to be more interested as a group in the sensational.

I agree that we all seem to be/are more interested in the sensational and in days gone by this would rule our world view.

As time passes though I do believe the effect gets diluted. We now have a much more time efficient way to satisfy both needs and while I think the most tasty morsel is the sensational I think the more filling meal is the newsworthy.

Lets consider this:


My FOFC reference was just pointing out that even we seem to be more interested as a group in the sensational.


I accept wholeheartedly our boards superiority. :)

Still, like I said, our interest here doesn't necessarily reflect our priorities or even necessarily our interests. I have no interest in killer clowns but if I read a thread about them I may well have a comment about something someone said and I may well post but really, my interest in killer clowns is next to or equal to zero. I know I have posted in threads like this.

Of course, I have dead time on my hands and I generally read most if not all the threads on the front page every day. It more reflects my respect of the thoughts of my fellow board members than my interest in what they want to talk about.

[MIJB#19]

Just off the top of my head, and if that does indeed turn out to be the case,
I imagine the exact number was difficult if not impossible to get due to the fact that it was opening day for school.

IIRC, there were a large number of adults/parents/family members on hand for some sort of traditional first-day ceremony. And if the visitors extended beyond parents to other family members, a true count would have been pretty much impossible.Yes, that's what the Dutch tv told in a special news program this afternoon too. First day of school being special, parents all there, grandpa and gradma coming along. But if they know their own tradition, going with 300-400 and ending up in the 1,500? I find it a bit strange, to say the least. Somehow I don't completly trust the information given from the Russian authorities.

[BishopMVP]

Maybe there really were 400 or so and the Russians are saying 1,500 now to make the 100 dead and 200 wounded seem like a victory (we saved most.) Just random speculation.

[SackAttack]

Even if there were 400, saving 300 of 400 still comes across as 'most'. It's just that losing 100 is a much higher percentage of 400 than of 1500, which makes it easier to dismiss and/or sweep under the rug.

[SackAttack]

Er, easier to sweep 100 out of 1500 under the rug, I ought to say.