Who is the AL MVP?

[samifan24]

Same drill, fellas.

[Suicane75]

I gotta go with Sheffield here, people overlook the fact that Arod had a down year, Jeter was horrid for half the season, there was no Giambi, and the pitching was average at best. Sheff carried that team on his back to the best record in the AL.

[McSweeny]

you might want to add David Ortiz

[SackAttack]

What, Michael Young and Alfonso Soriano don't deserve consideration?

[MizzouRah]

Me like Vlad.


Todd

[McSweeny]

as for my vote, i don't see there's anyway it can be anyone but Manny. He's got better numbers than Sheff across the board and he carried the injury-ridden Red Sox for pretty much the entire first half of the seaon.

309/398/616 vs. 292/395/542

and

43 HR and 130 RBI vs. 36 HR and 119 RBI

Manny it is

[samifan24]

you might want to add David Ortiz

What, Michael Young and Alfonso Soriano don't deserve consideration?

I only included Manny, Vlad, and Sheff because I want FOFCers to choose between those three so I can see if you HAD to pick one of them, who among those three you felt was MVP-worthy.

[Suicane75]

as for my vote, i don't see there's anyway it can be anyone but Manny. He's got better numbers than Sheff across the board and he carried the injury-ridden Red Sox for pretty much the entire first half of the seaon.

309/398/616 vs. 292/395/542

and

43 HR and 130 RBI vs. 36 HR and 119 RBI

Manny it is


I think you could argue that Sheffield did alot more carrying than Manny.
To say that a guy who had Schilling and Pedro out there 2 out of every 5 days, and Damon and Ortiz surrounding him carried his team is a bit of a stretch.

[SoxWin]

as for my vote, i don't see there's anyway it can be anyone but Manny. He's got better numbers than Sheff across the board and he carried the injury-ridden Red Sox for pretty much the entire first half of the seaon.

309/398/616 vs. 292/395/542

and

43 HR and 130 RBI vs. 36 HR and 119 RBI

Manny it is

Agreed.

I have a feeling that Sheff will end up with it though as Ortiz and Manny will likely split a lot of votes.

[Izulde]

I voted Vlad because I don't think the Angels would be vying for a playoff spot without him.

[Suicane75]

Dola,
As for the Texas guys, I don't think any of them had quite MVP level seasons although they all were quite good. I think Soriano, Blalock, Young and Texeria all played fabulously all season.

[McSweeny]

I think you could argue that Sheffield did alot more carrying than Manny.
To say that a guy who had Schilling and Pedro out there 2 out of every 5 days, and Damon and Ortiz surrounding him carried his team is a bit of a stretch.

by your own logic it could also be a bit of a stretch to say Sheff carried a team with Arod, Jeter, Vazquez, and Mussina

[Suicane75]

by your own logic it could also be a bit of a stretch to say Sheff carried a team with Arod, Jeter, Vazquez, and Mussina

An average Arod & below average Mussina and a horrid Jeter & Vazquez.

I dont think you can even start to argue that the 4 Boston players I mentioned had years far and above any of the 4 NY guys you mentioned.

[The_herd]

An average Arod & below average Mussina and a horrid Jeter & Vazquez.

An average A-Rod is still a top 10ish player. .290 with 35 homers isn't exactly crippling the offense and Jeter's second half play has been downplayed. All that gets attention is the bad 1st half. The guy got his average up to .290 after the horrid start. I don't think Shef has had to carry a team that has scored 881 runs.

[Suicane75]

I'm not saying that he singlehandidly made people forget about Babe Ruth, but he has taken a team that has alot less production from it's stars to the best record in the AL, better than Boston, who as I said, has gotten alot more production from the guys around Manny than around Sheff. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 starters in the league.

[valhalla]

Ichiro gets my vote, 257+ hits in a season is insane..

[SoxWin]

I'm not saying that he singlehandidly made people forget about Babe Ruth, but he has taken a team that has alot less production from it's stars to the best record in the AL, better than Boston, who as I said, has gotten alot more production from the guys around Manny than around Sheff. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 starters in the league.

As well as one of the worst 5.......

Boston had more then their share of injuries this year too. Nomar and Nixon missed most of the year, Bellhorn/Pokey were out for a while. Williamson has pitched less then 30IP, Kim summered in Korea and Pawtucket. Mueller missed 6 weeks and Millar left his bat at home for the entire first half. The Yankees aren't the only team with injuries and disappointing performances.

[Suicane75]

As well as one of the worst 5.......

Boston had more then their share of injuries this year too. Nomar and Nixon missed most of the year, Bellhorn/Pokey were out for a while. Williamson has pitched less then 30IP, Kim summered in Korea and Pawtucket. Mueller missed 6 weeks and Millar left his bat at home for the entire first half. The Yankees aren't the only team with injuries and disappointing performances.

I'm not saying they are, i'm simply pointing out that Manny had much better production around him all year than Sheffield did IMO.

[Blackadar]

Easily Manny. Best stats across the board. Sheffield doesn't even deserve to be a consideration. A-Rod's stats are about as good as Sheffy's. Hell, so are Matsui's.


A-Rod: .290/.381/.514 35 HRs, 102 RBIs, 111 Runs
Sheffy: .292/.346/.542 36 HRs, 119 RBIs, 117 Runs
Matsui: .292/.389/.514 29 HRS, 106 RBIs, 102 Runs

To say that Sheffield has carried that team is entirely inaccurate.

Ichiro is having a great year, but it's hard to consider him for the MVP given how little he's really done for his team. An OBA of .414 and a slugging of .457 isn't that great. Seattle winning 61 games is kind of hard to justify his inclusion.

Vlad is another case. He has the stats to compare to Manny (stats that across the board are better than Sheffield's, by the way) and is better in the field.

But I really think that Manny deserves it. After his offseason (the off-again, on-again A-Rod trade) and the way he was crucified in the press, he could have just mailed this season in. Instead, he's become a clubhouse leader on a team that desperately needed one and a model citizen.

[Suicane75]

Well, the stats are the stats and I cant argue with the comparability between Sheff, Matsui and Arod, but i can tell you this. To say that Sheff hasn't carried the Yankees is completely inacurate, while the other 2 guys have comparable stats, neither of them has provided the sparks, clutch hits, or great defensive play Sheffield has.

[Blackadar]

So even the statistics lie now? You're a Yankees fan and therefore are rooting for Sheffy. That's ok. That's good enough to bias your opinion. But it doesn't mean that Sheffy is as good or as deserving as Manny or Vlad.

[Suicane75]

So even the statistics lie now? You're a Yankees fan and therefore are rooting for Sheffy. That's ok. That's good enough to bias your opinion. But it doesn't mean that Sheffy is as good or as deserving as Manny or Vlad.

Man, I try to be contrite to your opinion and you call me a biased Yankees fan? Jesus dude, calm the fuck down. I'm not a Yankee fan nor do I particuraly like Sheffield, I just know from watching a large portion of Yankees games that he has been the cataylst to the best team in the league and has comparable numbers to Manny. And where the fuck did I say that the numbers lie? I said "the numbers are the numbers and i can't argue with them." Are you trying to be a jackass?

[ISiddiqui]

Looking at the stats, I don't see how Sheffield has 'carried the Yankees'. The stats are the stats. Manny's got no one similar in his lineup.

[McSweeny]

Man, I try to be contrite to your opinion and you call me a biased Yankees fan? Jesus dude, calm the fuck down. I'm not a Yankee fan nor do I particuraly like Sheffield, I just know from watching a large portion of Yankees games that he has been the cataylst to the best team in the league and has comparable numbers to Manny. And where the fuck did I say that the numbers lie? I said "the numbers are the numbers and i can't argue with them." Are you trying to be a jackass?

the thing is, that his numbers are not really that comparable to Manny's. Look at the huge difference in slugging percentage, RBI, and Homeruns. If the numbers were slightly closer, then maybe we could bring Sheff carrying the Yankees into play. But in my opinion Manny's numbers are just better all around and any conjecture about things that cannot be measured should not come into play

[Suicane75]

Looking at the stats, I don't see how Sheffield has 'carried the Yankees'. The stats are the stats. Manny's got no one similar in his lineup.

And my point is, stats aside, that Sheffield has been the team leader, clutch hitter, and spark plug to the Yankees. You can't look at stats and see intangibles. Now I havn't seen more than 10 red sox games all year, so i cant argue against what manny has meant to that team, but if it were up to me, based on what i've seen, I would give it to Sheffield, and I think that everyone who thinks Manny is a shoo in will be surprised when the voting comes out.

[Suicane75]

Well, I dont think 7HR and 11RBI are far and away better numbers, especially since Sheff has scored 9 more runs. The run production is basicaly equal.

[McSweeny]

Well, I dont think 7HR and 11RBI are far and away better numbers, especially since Sheff has scored 9 more runs. The run production is basicaly equal.

i didn't say far and away, though he does destroy Sheffield in slugging percentage. Things like clutch, and spark plug cannot be measured at all. You yourself even say you hardly watched Manny play this season. I don't see how you can base an argument on something that cannot be measured or something that you did not look for or have a chance to look for in the other MVP possibilities.

I hope that makes a little bit of sense...

[ISiddiqui]

my point is, stats aside, that Sheffield has been the team leader, clutch hitter, and spark plug to the Yankees

And has two other players who have ~30 HRs and over 100 RBIs each. So who cares if he's the "team leader"? That didn't make me think Jeter was a better SS than A-Rod. And besides, being a 'clutch hitter' is a myth.

[Blackadar]

Man, I try to be contrite to your opinion and you call me a biased Yankees fan? Jesus dude, calm the fuck down. I'm not a Yankee fan nor do I particuraly like Sheffield, I just know from watching a large portion of Yankees games that he has been the cataylst to the best team in the league and has comparable numbers to Manny. And where the fuck did I say that the numbers lie? I said "the numbers are the numbers and i can't argue with them." Are you trying to be a jackass?

Being from NJ, I inferred that you are a Yankees fan. Of course, you've also attended or watched a "large portion of Yankees games". Most people don't do that if they're not fans.

And you are trying to argue with the numbers. Once it was shown that Sheffy has two other equivalent hitters in the lineup, including one that hits BEHIND Sheffy and therefore protects him in the lineup, you then went to phase two: trot out things that are harder to disprove like leadership, spark plug, clutch hitting.

I could make the same case with any of the other aforementioned players.

Manny's best numbers were when the Red Sox were devistated by injuries. No Nixon. No Varitek. No Nomar. No matter. Manny put them on his back and carried that team. He's been the clubhouse leader and calming force, despite everything that happened to him in the offseason.

Vlad came in and also carried a team wracked by injuries. Erstad played in only 121 games. Glaus played in 54. Tim Salmon in 60. Garret Anderson played in 109. Guillen is the only one in that lineup to even have hit more than 20 HRs (besides Vlad himself). Only Guillen and Vlad have more than 75 RBIs. So if we want to look at unprotected production, Vlad may have the strongest case of them all.

Again, I just don't see where Sheffield can be considered even equal to either Vlad or Manny. His numbers are clearly inferior and he was far more protected in his lineup batting behind A-Rod. His "intangibles" don't seem to be in any way superior to Vlad or Manny. I just don't see where a logical case can be made for Sheffield to win the AL MVP.

[SoxWin]

Looking at the stats, I don't see how Sheffield has 'carried the Yankees'. The stats are the stats. Manny's got no one similar in his lineup.

I'm a Red Sox fan but that's just wrong. :)

David Ortiz says hi.

300/378/600/978 40hr's 136rbi's 92runs

Edit. Not to mention only 10 less doubles then Matsui/ARod combined.

[ISiddiqui]

Ok, so he has no two similar in his lineup ;).

I didn't realize Ortiz was having that good of a year.

[Chief Rum]

I picked Vlad, but I must admit I haven't looked at the overall numbers of the three players in question (or others, like Ortiz). I'm just a shameless homer. :)

CR

[SoxWin]

Ok, so he has no two similar in his lineup ;).

I didn't realize Ortiz was having that good of a year.

He's a frigging monster.

Personally, I think he's the biggest reason behind Manny becoming more vocal and media friendly this year (thus they've taken to annointing Manny as a team leader) The Sox as a team just seem to enjoy playing together, and imo, that started last year with Millar and Ortiz being acquired.

[Suicane75]

Being from NJ, I inferred that you are a Yankees fan. Of course, you've also attended or watched a "large portion of Yankees games". Most people don't do that if they're not fans.

And you are trying to argue with the numbers. Once it was shown that Sheffy has two other equivalent hitters in the lineup, including one that hits BEHIND Sheffy and therefore protects him in the lineup, you then went to phase two: trot out things that are harder to disprove like leadership, spark plug, clutch hitting.

I could make the same case with any of the other aforementioned players.

Manny's best numbers were when the Red Sox were devistated by injuries. No Nixon. No Varitek. No Nomar. No matter. Manny put them on his back and carried that team. He's been the clubhouse leader and calming force, despite everything that happened to him in the offseason.

Vlad came in and also carried a team wracked by injuries. Erstad played in only 121 games. Glaus played in 54. Tim Salmon in 60. Garret Anderson played in 109. Guillen is the only one in that lineup to even have hit more than 20 HRs (besides Vlad himself). Only Guillen and Vlad have more than 75 RBIs. So if we want to look at unprotected production, Vlad may have the strongest case of them all.

Again, I just don't see where Sheffield can be considered even equal to either Vlad or Manny. His numbers are clearly inferior and he was far more protected in his lineup batting behind A-Rod. His "intangibles" don't seem to be in any way superior to Vlad or Manny. I just don't see where a logical case can be made for Sheffield to win the AL MVP.


Well no, I see alot of Yankees games because I get the YES network and i enjoy watching baseball, so besides Phillies games I watch alot of Yankees games.

And go to option #2, intangibles were what I meant when i said he carried them, i didn't come out and explicitly say it, but it's what I meant. And it's not like the numbers blew me out of the water either, as I said run porduction is pretty much equal.

And I don't think it's even close that Manny has a far better quality of all around team around than Sheffield does, heck, I'd take schilling, pedro and ortiz before I took another yankee if we're starting a team right now. Add in the fact that Sheffield has had a comparable season with essentially 1 arm (that has provided a huge spark to the rest of the team) and the fact that the Yankees have the better record and I think he's more deserving.

[Blackadar]

Ok, so he has no two similar in his lineup ;).

I didn't realize Ortiz was having that good of a year.

Yea, Ortiz has been a helluva acquisition for Boston. He really has taken to Boston and he is very protected with Manny hitting behind him. But I wouldn't vote for Ortiz - he's played a lot of DH this year and his stats don't justify his inclusion because of that. He'd have to be head-and-shoulders above everyone else to get my vote as a DH.

[McSweeny]

Yea, Ortiz has been a helluva acquisition for Boston. He really has taken to Boston and he is very protected with Manny hitting behind him. But I wouldn't vote for Ortiz - he's played a lot of DH this year and his stats don't justify his inclusion because of that. He'd have to be head-and-shoulders above everyone else to get my vote as a DH.

not to quibble, but Manny hits in front of Ortiz :)

[SoxWin]

not to quibble, but Manny hits in front of Ortiz :)

Beat me to it.

[Blackadar]

Well no, I see alot of Yankees games because I get the YES network and i enjoy watching baseball, so besides Phillies games I watch alot of Yankees games.

And go to option #2, intangibles were what I meant when i said he carried them, i didn't come out and explicitly say it, but it's what I meant. And it's not like the numbers blew me out of the water either, as I said run porduction is pretty much equal.

And I don't think it's even close that Manny has a far better quality of all around team around than Sheffield does, heck, I'd take schilling, pedro and ortiz before I took another yankee if we're starting a team right now. Add in the fact that Sheffield has had a comparable season with essentially 1 arm (that has provided a huge spark to the rest of the team) and the fact that the Yankees have the better record and I think he's more deserving.

There's a couple of things I don't get.

1. What does Schilling and Pedro have to do with Manny's hitting stats? Yes, you can look at the W/L column with those guys, but it's not like the Yankees' pitching sucks ass - especially their bullpen. Gordon, Quantrill and Rivera (especially Gordon and Rivera) have been friggin' monsters. If anything, you could say the Yankees pitching is not as talent-rich, but is much deeper. After Schilling and Pedro, the Sox have Wakefield (4.94 ERA) and Lowe (5.43 ERA). That might favor the Sox in the playoffs, but it doesn' help them in the 3 out of 5 games that Curt or Pedro don't pitch.

You can't tell me the $200 million salaried Yankees squad is in any way talent-impared. They have 6 guys with 20 or more home runs. That doesn't count Ruben Sierra, who has 17 in only 300 ABs. The Red Sox have, um, only two guys with 20 or more HRs.

2. If you'd take Ortiz over A-Rod, I'll trade you any day.

3. I didn't know Sheffield was injured or impared in any way. I think he's had a helluva season either way.

4. My feeling about records is that they count only when there's a large disparity between teams. In this case, there's not.

[Blackadar]

not to quibble, but Manny hits in front of Ortiz :)

Ortiz hits in front of Manny far more often.

Red Sox hitters, by batting position.

#POS PLAYER STATS RUNNER-UP (PA)
1. Johnny Damon .860 OPS as #1 batter (680 PA) Mark Bellhorn (37)
2. Mark Bellhorn .820 OPS as #2 batter (449 PA) Bill Mueller (141)
3. David Ortiz .993 OPS as #3 batter (421 PA) Manny Ramirez (208)
4. Manny Ramirez 1.030 OPS as #4 batter (445 PA) David Ortiz (210)
5. Kevin Millar .825 OPS as #5 batter (214 PA) Jason Varitek (208)
6. Kevin Millar .821 OPS as #6 batter (189 PA) Jason Varitek (175)
7. Kevin Millar 1.076 OPS as #7 batter (124 PA) Orlando Cabrera (81)
8. Bill Mueller 1.014 OPS as #8 batter (177 PA) Gabe Kapler (120)
9. Pokey Reese .578 OPS as #9 batter (238 PA) Gabe Kapler (102)

[Bomber]

Sheffield:
Win Shares: 30 (1st in MLB)
WSAA: 14 (1st in MLB)

Ramirez:
Win Shares: 26
WSAA: 10

[Suicane75]

There's a couple of things I don't get.

1. What does Schilling and Pedro have to do with Manny's hitting stats? Yes, you can look at the W/L column with those guys, but it's not like the Yankees' pitching sucks ass - especially their bullpen. Gordon, Quantrill and Rivera (especially Gordon and Rivera) have been friggin' monsters. If anything, you could say the Yankees pitching is not as talent-rich, but is much deeper. After Schilling and Pedro, the Sox have Wakefield (4.94 ERA) and Lowe (5.43 ERA). That might favor the Sox in the playoffs, but it doesn' help them in the 3 out of 5 games that Curt or Pedro don't pitch.

I didnt say it helped his hitting stats. I'm starting off with the basis that the stats are generaly equal and then saying that Sheffield stats came on a team with a better record and less over talent production.

You can't tell me the $200 million salaried Yankees squad is in any way talent-impared. They have 6 guys with 20 or more home runs. That doesn't count Ruben Sierra, who has 17 in only 300 ABs. The Red Sox have, um, only two guys with 20 or more HRs.

I would never try to argue that they are talent impaired, I just think that Bostons all around production around Manny has been better, and yes, im including pitching in that.

2. If you'd take Ortiz over A-Rod, I'll trade you any day. Right now, for the rest of the season, i'd do that deal in a heartbeat, A-ROD has had as quiet and unproductive 35HR, 100RBI season you'll ever see.

3. I didn't know Sheffield was injured or impared in any way. I think he's had a helluva season either way.
Yeah, he hasn't been able to lift his shoulder since about June, how he hits is a mystery to me.

4. My feeling about records is that they count only when there's a large disparity between teams. In this case, there's not.

I can respect that.

[Bomber]

Sheffield:
Win Shares: 30 (1st in MLB)
WSAA: 14 (1st in MLB)

Ramirez:
Win Shares: 26
WSAA: 10

No response on this? I know some people don't like sabermetrics, but doesn't having the largest role in the league in your teams wins pretty much define the Most VALUABLE Player.

[Blackadar]

No response. I've never been convinced that Bill James' Win Shares has any great merit. It's certainly one method to look and compare players, but it's not the only or best method by any means. To me, using that method to determine the MVP is like using the BCS to determine the best college football teams.

[McSweeny]

To follow up on the win share bit. 3 win shares is about equal to one win. So using win shares, which as Blackie says are hardly overly convincing, Sheffield is only one win better than Manny. In other words, hardly convincing considering the large gap that Manny has on Sheffield in all ofensive categories

[Fouts]

The Boston and New York voters will split their votes and Vlad will win it.

[Suicane75]

To follow up on the win share bit. 3 win shares is about equal to one win. So using win shares, which as Blackie says are hardly overly convincing, Sheffield is only one win better than Manny. In other words, hardly convincing considering the large gap that Manny has on Sheffield in all ofensive categories

There isn't a large gap at all, in fact their run production is very even.

[ISiddiqui]

No response on this? I know some people don't like sabermetrics, but doesn't having the largest role in the league in your teams wins pretty much define the Most VALUABLE Player.

Ah, but you see, there are many different ways people consider the Most Valuable Player. Some of us look at the other talent on the team and not just who is the Best Player.

[McSweeny]

There isn't a large gap at all, in fact their run production is very even.

sure, but run production is a poor idicator of individual performance and is largely dependant on ones team. Look at this slugging percentages. Manny far and away has the lead there. 15 points in batting average and 7 homeruns are also large gaps. Taking all that into account I just don't see how Sheffield can be considered Most Valuable. Sure he's scored more runs, but we've already established that he's got some pretty awesome guy following him in the order.

[Suicane75]

heck, if you want to pick a true "most valuable player" Victor Martinez deserves some attention.

[Crapshoot]

I think its a tossup - but Sheffield leads the AL in Win Shares- he's a deserving MVP. That being said- Johan Santana would probably be my choice.

[Suicane75]

I think its a tossup - but Sheffield leads the AL in Win Shares- he's a deserving MVP. That being said- Johan Santana would probably be my choice.

Another good choice.

[Bomber]

I don't see how Santana could be the MVP. No matter how good he's been the Central is so weak the Twins would have won it in a walk without him.

[Suicane75]

I don't see how Santana could be the MVP. No matter how good he's been the Central is so weak the Twins would have won it in a walk without him.

I highly doubt that.

[samifan24]

heck, if you want to pick a true "most valuable player" Victor Martinez deserves some attention.

As an Indians fan, I smile when I read this. That said, there's no way Victor is in the same league as these guys. Plenty for Shapiro to keep building around though. :D

[stevew]

Johan Santana has been dominant for the majority of the season. He would be my selection for MVP

[McSweeny]

Johan Santana has been dominant for the majority of the season. He would be my selection for MVP

some more quibbling here :)

he was 7-6 with a 3.78 ERA before the all star break. So he was average for half a year and dominant for the other half. Pretty damn good, but not someone i would vote for for MVP

[Crapshoot]

some more quibbling here :)

he was 7-6 with a 3.78 ERA before the all star break. So he was average for half a year and dominant for the other half. Pretty damn good, but not someone i would vote for for MVP

3rd in the AL in Win Shares, in a stat that does tend to slightly undervalue SP - he has a damn good case.

[SuburbanPimp]

I demand either a Miguel Tejada or Trout/Rectum option.

That is all.

[sterlingice]

Just seems odd that the NL list has the 4 serious contenders (Bonds, Beltre, Rolen, Pujols) along with my mom, your mom, the kitchen sink, and a partridge in a pear tree despite basically being a 4-horse (3 if you count the Cardinals as one candidate) race. Whereas the AL, which is much more wide open only has a 3-person poll when no one really has a breakaway claim like the ones in the NL.

SI

[Pumpy Tudors]

Just because I've posted this in about 3 or 4 other threads:

Ichiro for MVP!

[stevew]

June/July/August/September. Check out those stats for Santana. He was borderline untouchable for 2/3 of the season. If Clemens wins the MVP in his triple crown season, Santana should merit at least top 3 consideration for his(he is 1 win short of schilling).

[sterlingice]

June/July/August/September. Check out those stats for Santana. He was borderline untouchable for 2/3 of the season. If Clemens wins the MVP in his triple crown season, Santana should merit at least top 3 consideration for his(he is 1 win short of schilling).
Man, he was sitting at a Chan Ho Park-esque 2-4 with a 5.50 after pitching on June 3rd. After his next game, the AP story has the quote {"I think this will be the beginning of something good," Santana said.} Well, in 21 starts since, he's gone 6 innings or more and given up 2 earned runs or less (needless to say, he's gone 18-2 since). That's just insane!

SI

[Blackadar]

Just because I've posted this in about 3 or 4 other threads:

Ichiro for MVP!

Uh, no. See prior response.

[samifan24]

Just seems odd that the NL list has the 4 serious contenders (Bonds, Beltre, Rolen, Pujols) along with my mom, your mom, the kitchen sink, and a partridge in a pear tree despite basically being a 4-horse (3 if you count the Cardinals as one candidate) race. Whereas the AL, which is much more wide open only has a 3-person poll when no one really has a breakaway claim like the ones in the NL.

SI

I did that on purpose. The options for the AL were the options I picked because I wanted FOFCers to choose between those three. In the NL, I figured it was really a three man race as well: Bonds, Pujols, and Beltre. The NL poll could just have easily been reduced to three names as well, just look at how many votes Loretta and the others have received. Personally, I think Bonds and Ramirez are the MVPs this year, but I wanted to gauge FOFC to see how you all think about it.

[oykib]

The three are very close. But there are a few tie-breakers.

1. Manny is a DH. Even if you stick him in LF two-thirds of the time that doesn't change. He's just a DH in the field.

2. Manny has the best run context to play in. That's a big part of the reason his VORP and WS don't show mimic his fairly large lead in hitting stats.

3. Vlad and Sheff are about equal. But this is one of the places that I apply the play for a winner tie-breaker. This and the fact that Sheffield played with a shoulder that requires surgery for two-thirds of the season would make me vote for Sheffield. Well... that and the fact that I am a Yankee fan.

[rkmsuf]

Sheffield will win.

[oykib]

By the way, for those of you who say that Tejada should win:

1. He already has an undeserved MVP.

2. Melvin Mora was an appreciably better player this season. He might have been my choice if he was a poll option.

[Blackadar]

The three are very close. But there are a few tie-breakers.

1. Manny is a DH. Even if you stick him in LF two-thirds of the time that doesn't change. He's just a DH in the field.

2. Manny has the best run context to play in. That's a big part of the reason his VORP and WS don't show mimic his fairly large lead in hitting stats.

3. Vlad and Sheff are about equal. But this is one of the places that I apply the play for a winner tie-breaker. This and the fact that Sheffield played with a shoulder that requires surgery for two-thirds of the season would make me vote for Sheffield. Well... that and the fact that I am a Yankee fan.

There would only need to be tie-breakers if all things were equal. They're clearly not. But let's look at your points, 1 by 1...

1. No, he's not a DH. You said so yourself. Ok, Sheffield is a DH too. See? Now we're both wrong. :rolleyes:

2. I guess any statistic, no matter how contrived or far-reaching, will do when the "normal" stats - batting average, RBIs, HRs, Slugging %, on-base % - are all not in favor of your position.

3. Oh, so Vlad is now penalized because his team doesn't have a $200 million payroll? This somehow HELPS justify Sheffield? If anyone has done more with less, it's Vlad.

I know you're a Yankees fan and you're trying to justify the inclusion/selection of Sheffield, but do you even believe the crap you're shoveling?

[rkmsuf]

By the way, for those of you who say that Tejada should win:

1. He already has an undeserved MVP.

2. Melvin Mora was an appreciably better player this season. He might have been my choice if he was a poll option.

Who would say Tejada should win?

[oykib]

There would only need to be tie-breakers if all things were equal. They're clearly not. But let's look at your points, 1 by 1...

1. No, he's not a DH. You said so yourself. Ok, Sheffield is a DH too. See? Now we're both wrong. :rolleyes:

2. I guess any statistic, no matter how contrived or far-reaching, will do when the "normal" stats - batting average, RBIs, HRs, Slugging %, on-base % - are all not in favor of your position.

3. Oh, so Vlad is now penalized because his team doesn't have a $200 million payroll? This somehow HELPS justify Sheffield? If anyone has done more with less, it's Vlad.

I know you're a Yankees fan and you're trying to justify the inclusion/selection of Sheffield, but do you even believe the crap you're shoveling?

Vlad and Manny play in better parks to hit in than Yankee Stadium. Edison Field or Angel Stadium or whatever they call it these days has generally played neutral. Fenway is a hitter's park. Yankee Stadium is a pitcher's park.

Vlad has a higher average than Sheff. But he never walks. Sheff is second in the league in that category. They are both good outfielders (although Vlad is better). But taking their numbers, there is really not much to seperate the two. One guy'll lead in one composite stat or another based on how you weight it. It's essentially a dead heat between the two.

As for Manny. He's a net negative in the field or he's a net zero as a DH. Defensive metrics are still not understood very well. But even given the way that the Green Monster covers for a LF with bad range and poor instincts, Manny still works out as one of the worst outfielders in baseball.

That's what I meant by he's a DH whether he plays in the field or not. He'd actually be more valuable as a DH than as a LF. But the Sox don't have that option with him, so he detracts from the team defense playing left.

He is also the only one of the three that gets a benefit from his home park. His raw numbers are better than the other two.

Here is a listing of the three by various composites:


Name Team Lge Pos Out PA EQA EQR RAR RAP RARP

Guerrero, Vladimir ANA AL RF 400. 653. 0.330 125.2 74.4 44.0 65.6

Ramirez, Manny BOS AL LF 391. 647. 0.330 122.5 72.9 39.2 61.4

Sheffield, Gary NYY AL RF 403. 661. 0.322 118.6 67.5 36.8 58.6

Rank Player Team POS Bat Pitch Field ExpWS WSP WSAA Total

1 G Sheffield NYY OF 27.7 0.0 2.4 16 .937 14 30
4 M Ramirez BOS OF 23.1 0.0 2.7 16 .833 10 26
7 V Guerrero ANA OF 21.7 0.0 3.3 16 .784 9 25



So with the baseball prospectus metrics you have Vlad-Manny-Sheff.

With the Win Shares metric you have the exact opposite.

Seems like it's close enough to apply tie breakers to me. Of the statistics, we can least rely on the defensive ones. We can eyeball that Sheff and Vlad are good fielders and Manny is a bad to horrible one. In addition, Manny plays a less valuable position. He's also a goof ball-- by all accounts. So he's not getting any extra credit for leadership.

Manny's out.

Now it's between Sheffield and Guerrero. Considering that Sheffield was able to put up equivalent numbers with his ailing shoulder in the more pressurized environment in New York is enough to sway my vote in his direction.

P.S. You guys need to stop being jackasses about the Yankee fan thing. If you don't think I-- or any of my New York brethren for that matter-- have enough integrity and intelligence to make a reasonable argument than put me (or us) on your Ignore list.

If not, you just being a whiny little bitch who can't deal in an adult way with an opposing viewpoint.

That goes for that rolleyes bullshit as well.

[McSweeny]

you've got to be shitting me! Manny is a horrible fielder? Have you watched him play at ALL this year? Haven't you seen the way he's played Fenway? He's been very Yaz-like out there this year. I've watched him all year long and i have been saying all year that his defense is leaps and bounds above what is has been in the past. And since you're a Yankee fan, i'm sure you saw that catch he made at the Toilet (err Stadium) recently. You will be hard pressed to find a catch better than that one. Hardly what one would call "Horrible" defense.

[McSweeny]

dola

oh but that's right... Sheff is way ahead of Manny and Vlad in the one category that will really make a difference: Games playin in pin-stripes

[oykib]

dola

oh but that's right... Sheff is way ahead of Manny and Vlad in the one category that will really make a difference: Games playin in pin-stripes

See P.S. in my last post.

aRe you really going to argue that Manny does not deservedly have the reputation as one of the worst outfielders in baseball? Or are you going to argue that a leftfielder who plays half his games in front of the Green Monster is as valuable as a right fielder?

Who's being the homer?

[McSweeny]

See P.S. in my last post.

aRe you really going to argue that Manny does not deservedly have the reputation as one of the worst outfielders in baseball? Or are you going to argue that a leftfielder who plays half his games in front of the Green Monster is as valuable as a right fielder?

Who's being the homer?

yes i really am going to argue that. I have watched him play nearly everday since he has come to Boston. Last year i thought he looked pretty decent out there. This year i would say that his has helped the Red Sox far more than his has hindered them. He has been an average+ fielder. I very well may be a homer, but i honestly think that Manny has been a solid fielder this year

and the crack about Sheffield playing for the Yankees was not directed at you. Just general frustration with the media, sorry if you thought i was taking a cheap shot at you

[rkmsuf]

Manny is an average outfielder. No more, no less.

[Crapshoot]

note - Manny has 2.7 defensive win shares- Sheffield has 2.4 . Lets call the defense a wash.

[Blackadar]

See P.S. in my last post.

aRe you really going to argue that Manny does not deservedly have the reputation as one of the worst outfielders in baseball? Or are you going to argue that a leftfielder who plays half his games in front of the Green Monster is as valuable as a right fielder?

Who's being the homer?

You showed your ignorance and bias by saying the Manny is a "goof-ball". He's been the leader of this team this year, despite what happened during the offseason. Clubhouse leader, model citizen...doesn't sound like a goof-ball to me.

By saying that, you've pretty much assassinated the validity of your position. Congrats!

[rkmsuf]

You showed your ignorance and bias by saying the Manny is a "goof-ball". He's been the leader of this team this year, despite what happened during the offseason. Clubhouse leader, model citizen...doesn't sound like a goof-ball to me.

By saying that, you've pretty much assassinated the validity of your position. Congrats!

No Manny is pretty much a goofball and is the farthest thing from a leader as you will find in sports.

Doesn't mean he's not a good player but he definately lives in his own world.

[Crapshoot]

sigh- is anyone here to going to win points by debating "leadership" ?

[McSweeny]

sigh- is anyone here to going to win points by debating "leadership" ?

can we debate intangibles and clutch while we're at it?

[Crapshoot]

can we debate intangibles and clutch while we're at it?

damn straight- Manny only gives 106%, compared to Sheff's 109%- but he makes a mean souffle the feeds his teammates in the clubhouse!

[Blackadar]

No Manny is pretty much a goofball and is the farthest thing from a leader as you will find in sports.

Doesn't mean he's not a good player but he definately lives in his own world.

Really? Care to reconsider?

TSN had a huge article on this very issue not too far back.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=18882

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1083497400280280.xml

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1852668

I'd agree in past years. This year is a much different story.

[Danny]

This is funny. I don't believe in arguing leadership and intagibles crap, but is someone really going to argue that a player who has admitted to making errors on purpose is the MVP because of his leadership?

[Danny]

As for my vote, I am undecided. Sheffield does lead in win shares, but Guerrero and Ramirez rank ahead of in the baseball prospectus and some other stats.

[rkmsuf]

Really? Care to reconsider?

TSN had a huge article on this very issue not too far back.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=18882

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1083497400280280.xml

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1852668

I'd agree in past years. This year is a much different story.

The fact you think Manny Ramirez now or ever is a leader is beyond arguing.

[heybrad]

Now it's between Sheffield and Guerrero. Considering that Sheffield was able to put up equivalent numbers with his ailing shoulder in the more pressurized environment in New York is enough to sway my vote in his direction.
Are you serious with this? All things being equal give it to the New Yorker because theres more pressure? Thats totally laughable.

[oykib]

Win Shares is a fair measure of combined production. But James admitted that it's weakest area is defense. Also, There are plenty of sabermetricians who have theorized that the Green Monster skews defensive stats.

I can't seem to find a site with up-to-date sortable defensive stats including Zone Rating, which is the only real park-adjusted stat. But Manny's was an atrocious .725 earlier this year, by far the worst in the AL among left fielders.

Actually, here are Manny's defensive numbers since he became a member of the Red Sox:


Year Team POS G Ch PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR

2001 BOS LF 55 106 98 1 0 0 1.000 1.850 .877
2002 BOS LF 64 122 98 4 5 0 .953 1.730 .779
2002 BOS RF 7 14 13 2 0 1 1.000 2.600 .857
2002 Total 122 136 111 6 5 1 .959 1.810 .787
2003 BOS LF 128 251 207 11 4 1 .982 1.830 .789
2004 BOS LF 130 246 196 4 6 0 .971 1.670 .748

Vlad over the same Stretch of time:

2001 MON RF 158 332 320 15 12 5 .965 2.200 .916
2002 MON RF 161 326 298 14 10 4 .969 1.990 .877
2003 MON RF 112 236 217 10 7 1 .970 2.150 .869
2004 ANA RF 140 333 299 13 9 2 .972 2.320 .868

And Sheffield:

2001 LA LF 141 227 195 17 6 0 .972 1.600 .850
2001 LA RF 2 1 1 0 0 0 1.000 1.290 1.000
2001 Total 145 228 196 17 6 0 .973 1.590 .851
2002 ATL RF 127 251 232 7 4 0 .984 1.950 .900
2003 ATL RF 153 315 283 7 4 2 .986 2.030 .883
2004 NYY 3B 2 1 0 0 1 0 .000 .000 .000
2004 NYY RF 134 308 265 11 5 3 .982 2.130 .854
2004 Total 154 309 265 11 6 3 .979 2.130 .851

Year Team POS G Ch PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR


Seems pretty clear to me that someone here is a bad fielder. By the way that Range Factor is last in the AL among regular LF for Manny. The same is true for Zone Rating. He's last in assists too.

He looks like a bad fielder and almost every stat says he's awful as well. Remember that Win Shares starts from the assumption that all fielders on a good team are good in oreder to counteract the forced normalization of defensive stats. For a position like left where there are few data points to impact that assumption, it's hard for Manny to lose points.

The nine qualifiers at LF:

No. Player Team FPCT G GS Ch INN PO A E DP RF ZR
1. Crawford, Carl TB .996 121 114 291 1,001.0 271 5 1 1 2.480 .921
2. Bigbie, Larry BAL .991 112 101 234 904.0 213 2 2 0 2.140 .893
3. Ibanez, Raul SEA .983 107 103 246 926.1 220 9 4 3 2.220 .874
4. Lee, Carlos CWS 1.000 144 144 292 1,242.2 268 10 0 1 2.010 .870
5. Guillen, Jose ANA .979 135 135 305 1,157.0 266 9 6 1 2.140 .843
6. Matsui, Hideki NYY .978 158 156 353 1,374.0 299 7 7 2 2.000 .827
7. Byrnes, Eric OAK .988 106 95 190 845.1 161 7 2 2 1.790 .821
8. Lawton, Matt CLE .988 124 123 282 1,070.1 231 7 3 2 2.000 .798
9. Ramirez, Manny BOS .971 130 130 246 1,078.2 196 4 6 0 1.670 .748


In Right:

No. Player Team FPCT G GS Ch INN PO A E DP RF ZR
1. Higginson,Bob DET .975 112 107 231 952.1 218 13 6 1 2.180 .913
2. Dye, Jermaine OAK .992 130 128 267 1,144.0 251 2 2 1 1.990 .910
3. Cruz Jr., Jose TB .969 146 142 344 1,257.2 306 8 10 0 2.250 .884
4. Jones, Jacque MIN .994 140 137 337 1,228.2 312 5 2 1 2.320 .878
5. Guerrero, Vlad ANA .972 140 140 333 1,209.0 299 13 9 2 2.320 .868
6. Suzuki, Ichiro SEA .992 154 154 392 1,371.0 356 12 3 2 2.420 .865
7. Gerut, Jody CLE .984 118 109 264 1,009.1 242 7 4 2 2.220 .860
8. Sheffield, Gary NYY .982 134 134 308 1,165.2 265 11 5 3 2.130 .854


Gary Sheffield ranks at the bottom of RF and Vlad is in the middle (depending on how much you value a great arm in right for both of them, they could both be up a couple of notches). But all regular RF are within a few points of each other, other than the truly elite, because RF all have to be good defenders.

Manny is an outlier in how god awful he is as a fielder. He's so terrible that he has to be leaps and bounds better than the other players offensively to be in the same class as them.

[KWhit]

If not, you just being a whiny little bitch who can't deal in an adult way with an opposing viewpoint.

That goes for that rolleyes bullshit as well.
:rolleyes:

[Blackadar]

The fact you think Manny Ramirez now or ever is a leader is beyond arguing.

Strawman!

[rkmsuf]

Strawman!

Voice of reasonman.

[Blackadar]

Win Shares is a fair measure of combined production. But James admitted that it's weakest area is defense. Also, There are plenty of sabermetricians who have theorized that the Green Monster skews defensive stats.

I can't seem to find a site with up-to-date sortable defensive stats including Zone Rating, which is the only real park-adjusted stat. But Manny's was an atrocious .725 earlier this year, by far the worst in the AL among left fielders.

Actually, here are Manny's defensive numbers since he became a member of the Red Sox:


Year Team POS G Ch PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR

2001 BOS LF 55 106 98 1 0 0 1.000 1.850 .877
2002 BOS LF 64 122 98 4 5 0 .953 1.730 .779
2002 BOS RF 7 14 13 2 0 1 1.000 2.600 .857
2002 Total 122 136 111 6 5 1 .959 1.810 .787
2003 BOS LF 128 251 207 11 4 1 .982 1.830 .789
2004 BOS LF 130 246 196 4 6 0 .971 1.670 .748

Vlad over the same Stretch of time:

2001 MON RF 158 332 320 15 12 5 .965 2.200 .916
2002 MON RF 161 326 298 14 10 4 .969 1.990 .877
2003 MON RF 112 236 217 10 7 1 .970 2.150 .869
2004 ANA RF 140 333 299 13 9 2 .972 2.320 .868

And Sheffield:

2001 LA LF 141 227 195 17 6 0 .972 1.600 .850
2001 LA RF 2 1 1 0 0 0 1.000 1.290 1.000
2001 Total 145 228 196 17 6 0 .973 1.590 .851
2002 ATL RF 127 251 232 7 4 0 .984 1.950 .900
2003 ATL RF 153 315 283 7 4 2 .986 2.030 .883
2004 NYY 3B 2 1 0 0 1 0 .000 .000 .000
2004 NYY RF 134 308 265 11 5 3 .982 2.130 .854
2004 Total 154 309 265 11 6 3 .979 2.130 .851

Year Team POS G Ch PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR


Seems pretty clear to me that someone here is a bad fielder. By the way that Range Factor is last in the AL among regular LF for Manny. The same is true for Zone Rating. He's last in assists too.

He looks like a bad fielder and almost every stat says he's awful as well. Remember that Win Shares starts from the assumption that all fielders on a good team are good in oreder to counteract the forced normalization of defensive stats. For a position like left where there are few data points to impact that assumption, it's hard for Manny to lose points.

The nine qualifiers at LF:

No. Player Team FPCT G GS Ch INN PO A E DP RF ZR
1. Crawford, Carl TB .996 121 114 291 1,001.0 271 5 1 1 2.480 .921
2. Bigbie, Larry BAL .991 112 101 234 904.0 213 2 2 0 2.140 .893
3. Ibanez, Raul SEA .983 107 103 246 926.1 220 9 4 3 2.220 .874
4. Lee, Carlos CWS 1.000 144 144 292 1,242.2 268 10 0 1 2.010 .870
5. Guillen, Jose ANA .979 135 135 305 1,157.0 266 9 6 1 2.140 .843
6. Matsui, Hideki NYY .978 158 156 353 1,374.0 299 7 7 2 2.000 .827
7. Byrnes, Eric OAK .988 106 95 190 845.1 161 7 2 2 1.790 .821
8. Lawton, Matt CLE .988 124 123 282 1,070.1 231 7 3 2 2.000 .798
9. Ramirez, Manny BOS .971 130 130 246 1,078.2 196 4 6 0 1.670 .748


In Right:

No. Player Team FPCT G GS Ch INN PO A E DP RF ZR
1. Higginson,Bob DET .975 112 107 231 952.1 218 13 6 1 2.180 .913
2. Dye, Jermaine OAK .992 130 128 267 1,144.0 251 2 2 1 1.990 .910
3. Cruz Jr., Jose TB .969 146 142 344 1,257.2 306 8 10 0 2.250 .884
4. Jones, Jacque MIN .994 140 137 337 1,228.2 312 5 2 1 2.320 .878
5. Guerrero, Vlad ANA .972 140 140 333 1,209.0 299 13 9 2 2.320 .868
6. Suzuki, Ichiro SEA .992 154 154 392 1,371.0 356 12 3 2 2.420 .865
7. Gerut, Jody CLE .984 118 109 264 1,009.1 242 7 4 2 2.220 .860
8. Sheffield, Gary NYY .982 134 134 308 1,165.2 265 11 5 3 2.130 .854


Gary Sheffield ranks at the bottom of RF and Vlad is in the middle (depending on how much you value a great arm in right for both of them, they could both be up a couple of notches). But all regular RF are within a few points of each other, other than the truly elite, because RF all have to be good defenders.

Manny is an outlier in how god awful he is as a fielder. He's so terrible that he has to be leaps and bounds better than the other players offensively to be in the same class as them.

Damn, this is getting funny.

Yes, Manny isn't a great fielder. I'd never argue otherwise.

BUT...looking at the stats and Sabremetrics, we can reach the following conclusion as well. Sheffield sucks in RF. He's lower than Manny in win shares and is the worst RF in the AL. Let me say it again. Sheffield sucks in RF. I don't think his sucking in RF gives him any advantage over anyone when talking about MVP candidates. Considering that in every major batting statistic Sheffield lags behind Manny, it really is hard to justify his selection.

If you're looking at fielding, the only player who gets a "leg up" is Vlad. Hell, I think there's a valid discussion of Vlad vs. Manny. That's easily debatable. Sheffield? Bronze medal, at best.

[Blackadar]

Voice of reasonman.

At least I post links and stats to back up my opinion. You may not agree, but at least there's backup. You haven't posted shit. Until you do, STFU.

[rkmsuf]

At least I post links and stats to back up my opinion. You may not agree, but at least there's backup. You haven't posted shit. Until you do, STFU.

Forget it, he's the man. I'm your strawman then.

[McSweeny]

this is starting to get to me. The following i poached from mabrowndog over at SOSH

And just in case you’re curious as to whether Fenway inflates Manny’s numbers, or if Yankee Stadium takes hits away from Sheffield, here’s their VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) and EQA (Equivalent Average) figures from baseballprospectus.com, which normalizes all data to account for park factors:



VORP: 70.5 vs. 64.5

EQA: .332 vs. .322

[oykib]

Sheffield sucks? He's fourth in Assists. He's sixth in Fpct. Ther is more of a gap between 3-5 than there is between 5 and 8. That's while playing hurt. His ZR for the previous two years were exceptional. Even his year they are good.

This is only among qualifiers as well. Manny only qualifies at LF because the Sox have alogjam at 1B and need to use the DH to keep Ortiz in the lineup. If you look at his Games Played numbers before they acquired Ortiz, you can see the Sox did everything they could to keep him off the field because he's horrid. You can stick a terrible fielder in left and try to live with it. You can't do that in right.

To play RF regularly you have to be good. An .850 ZR is a good number. There just happen to be guys with better numbers this year.

I already said that Vlad's defense was better. But only marginally so. The difference is well within the margin of error. Their offensive numbers are almost the same with Sheffield doing it in a tougher context.

THe argument can go either way between the two RFs. I vote Sheffield for the reasons I listed above.

Manny's out, IMO, for the reasons I listed. His numbers offensively aren't really better than the other two ewhen you take in the context that they all played in. And his defese is not only significantly worse, it's so bad as to be a detriment to his team.

[John Galt]

I vote for Santana.

[Jon]

I'll admit it, I'm a homer. I'm a Yankee fan. I want the Yankees to do what it takes to win. I hate the Red Sox. At any Yankee-Red Sox game I'm at, I'm the first to yell 1918, and Boston sucks. I've seen over 100 Yankees games and about 5 of the Angels games, and maybe 10 of the Red Sox games.

I like Gary Sheffield. I think he has worked hard this year, even playing through an injured shoulder. I can't stand Manny Ramirez. Primarily because he was out drinking when he said he had the flu.

BUT, I couldn't vote for Gary Sheffield. I voted for Manny Ramirez as MVP. I want to say it was a hard choice, but it wasn't. This year Manny seems different. When I've seen him play, even in highlights, he looks like he hustles. He looks like a team leader now. When he bats, the face of the game changes. David Ortiz does not have this effect. Gary Sheffield (b/c you have all of the other players) doesn't have this effect. It's just different this year, and he should get what he deserves.

Now, for the record, he is a tool. A Major Tool. So, my vote for Manny for MVP is really a vote for Most Valuable Tool.

Besides, let Boston win something .... they're not going to win the World Series this year. (Sorry, I couldn't resist, old habits die hard).

[McSweeny]

Sheffield sucks? He's fourth in Assists. He's sixth in Fpct. Ther is more of a gap between 3-5 than there is between 5 and 8. That's while playing hurt. His ZR for the previous two years were exceptional. Even his year they are good.

This is only among qualifiers as well. Manny only qualifies at LF because the Sox have alogjam at 1B and need to use the DH to keep Ortiz in the lineup. If you look at his Games Played numbers before they acquired Ortiz, you can see the Sox did everything they could to keep him off the field because he's horrid. You can stick a terrible fielder in left and try to live with it. You can't do that in right.

To play RF regularly you have to be good. An .850 ZR is a good number. There just happen to be guys with better numbers this year.

I already said that Vlad's defense was better. But only marginally so. The difference is well within the margin of error. Their offensive numbers are almost the same with Sheffield doing it in a tougher context.

THe argument can go either way between the two RFs. I vote Sheffield for the reasons I listed above.

Manny's out, IMO, for the reasons I listed. His numbers offensively aren't really better than the other two ewhen you take in the context that they all played in. And his defese is not only significantly worse, it's so bad as to be a detriment to his team.

actually you are wrong about the park factors. See my above post for VORP and EQA ratings which take park factors into account. It appears that Manny did not benifit at all from playing at Fenway as you so suggest

[rkmsuf]

Now, for the record, he is a tool. A Major Tool. So, my vote for Manny for MVP is really a vote for Most Valuable Tool.



Don't you dare post something like that without supporting information.

[oykib]

this is starting to get to me. The following i poached from mabrowndog over at SOSH

And just in case you?re curious as to whether Fenway inflates Manny?s numbers, or if Yankee Stadium takes hits away from Sheffield, here?s their VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) and EQA (Equivalent Average) figures from baseballprospectus.com, which normalizes all data to account for park factors:



VORP: 70.5 vs. 64.5

EQA: .332 vs. .322

And Win Shares has Sheffield not only ahead, but far ahead. That's batting Win Shares, too-- as Win Shares (mistakenly) has Manny as being a better fielder than Sheffield.

By the way, in the interest of fairness you could scroll up to my previous post that lists both the numbers that support my argument and the ones against it (like EQA and RARP). I'm interested in the actual truth.

Yet, I am the one greeted with cries of homerism.

Park factors are not an exact science, nor are the composite numbers they influence. The fact that respected metrics come back with different leaders indicaes that their offensive numbers are really too close to call.

Each composite is weighted based on the biases that the creator has as to what is valuable.

[Blackadar]

Sheffield sucks? He's fourth in Assists. He's sixth in Fpct. Ther is more of a gap between 3-5 than there is between 5 and 8. That's while playing hurt. His ZR for the previous two years were exceptional. Even his year they are good.

This is only among qualifiers as well. Manny only qualifies at LF because the Sox have alogjam at 1B and need to use the DH to keep Ortiz in the lineup. If you look at his Games Played numbers before they acquired Ortiz, you can see the Sox did everything they could to keep him off the field because he's horrid. You can stick a terrible fielder in left and try to live with it. You can't do that in right.

To play RF regularly you have to be good. An .850 ZR is a good number. There just happen to be guys with better numbers this year.

I already said that Vlad's defense was better. But only marginally so. The difference is well within the margin of error. Their offensive numbers are almost the same with Sheffield doing it in a tougher context.

THe argument can go either way between the two RFs. I vote Sheffield for the reasons I listed above.

Manny's out, IMO, for the reasons I listed. His numbers offensively aren't really better than the other two ewhen you take in the context that they all played in. And his defese is not only significantly worse, it's so bad as to be a detriment to his team.

Hmmm...

1. I could care less about the logjam at 1B for the Red Sox. Manny has been in the field. Period. You can't logically argue anything different. I don't give a shit about past years, either. This is the MVP for THIS year. Yes, Manny is a below average fielder. But...

...Sheffield's ZR the last two years has nothing to do with this. He's DEAD LAST among AL qualifiers this year. Yes, he sucks in the field as compared to his peers. In defensive WS, he sucks as compared to even Manny. I think Sheffield is a better fielder than Manny, not enough to make up the gap in every single major offensive statistic, in which he trails Manny. He's worse than Vlad, who has comperable/better offensive statistics than Sheffield. And...

...Sheffy, if anything, has done it in a much easier context. He has better hitters both in front and behind him. He has the most feared hitter in the AL over the past 3 years (A-Rod) protecting him in the order, plays on a team with much more support (a $200 million payroll hides a lot of ills), has two other guys who have produced very similar stats (ARod and Matsui) and is a far worse fielder than Vlad.

Simply put, you're a homer. That's cool. But the stats, both offensively and defensively, are against you.

[rkmsuf]

Chill. This isn't a class. I'm not writing a freshman term paper on "Why the Red Sox Make Me Giddy" in Baseball 101. It's my opinion. You don't have to accept it as fact. Nor did I assert it as such.

So, to respond---

I dare.......
Manny Ramirez is a tool. (But a tool who should get the Most Valuable Player Award).

I wasn't in reference to you so you chill.

[Jon]

Don't you dare post something like that without supporting information.

I dare......

[McSweeny]

And Win Shares has Sheffield not only ahead, but far ahead. That's batting Win Shares, too-- as Win Shares (mistakenly) has Manny as being a better fielder than Sheffield.

By the way, in the interest of fairness you could scroll up to my previous post that lists both the numbers that support my argument and the ones against it (like EQA and RARP). I'm interested in the actual truth.

Yet, I am the one greeted with cries of homerism.

Park factors are not an exact science, nor are the composite numbers they influence. The fact that respected metrics come back with different leaders indicaes that their offensive numbers are really too close to call.

Each composite is weighted based on the biases that the creator has as to what is valuable.

i love it! oh he kicks ass in win shares, but don't pay attention to the defensive win shares, they are wrong. Oh ignore VORP and EQA and Avg, and RBIs and HRs, and OPS, and only pay attention to the stats that make Sheffield look good. He is sooo clutch! He has intangibles! He's a leader! His shoulder is hurt! Blah blah blah blah

i was giving you the benifit of the doubt, but you are clearly looking at things through your pinstriped glasses. And like i said, it's those zero games that Manny and Vlad have played in pinstripes that appears to be costing them so dearly.

My ballot is as follows:

Manny
Vlad
Santana
Sheff

though i could see myself swapping Vlad and Manny depending on how the Angels finish up the season

[rkmsuf]

I dare......

You are a brave man

[Blackadar]

I wasn't in reference to you so you chill.

If you want to be a troll, please do so elsewhere.

[rkmsuf]

If you want to be a troll, please do so elsewhere.

Take it easy ok. You are the one who told me to STFU.

I'm just kidding. I'm out...continue being a badass.

[Bomber]

Ortiz has to get some votes. Its ridiculous that he's not even getting mentioned. He's going to cancel out Manny and it'll be between Vlad and Sheff. If the Angels pull this thing out its Vlad's award.

[JeeberD]

BTW, Ichiro is now just one hit away from tying Sisler's record...

[sterlingice]

sigh- is anyone here to going to win points by debating "leadership" ?
Can we talk about what the definition of "is" is?

SI

[Jon]

I wasn't in reference to you so you chill.

Oops. I thought I deleted in time. I took it out once I realized that it wasn't in response to me......

Seriously, though, all stats aside, I just don't think that Sheffield has been the MVP this year. The Yanks have had someone help them through their woes throughout the year, and it always hasn't been Sheff.

I just think that Manny is the AL MVP and will get it.

[Bomber]

After thinking about this I want to change my vote, which was initially biased, from Sheff to Vlad. Manny had Ortiz and the 2nd best pitcher in the AL. Sheff had the biggest payroll in the league. Vlad didn't have nearly has much help and I think he's got to win the award.

[rkmsuf]

Oops. I thought I deleted in time. I took it out once I realized that it wasn't in response to me......

Seriously, though, all stats aside, I just don't think that Sheffield has been the MVP this year. The Yanks have had someone help them through their woes throughout the year, and it always hasn't been Sheff.

I just think that Manny is the AL MVP and will get it.

Manny may be the most valuable but I believe in a vote Sheffield wins.

[sterlingice]

P.S. You guys need to stop being jackasses about the Yankee fan thing. If you don't think I-- or any of my New York brethren for that matter-- have enough integrity and intelligence to make a reasonable argument than put me (or us) on your Ignore list.

If not, you just being a whiny little bitch who can't deal in an adult way with an opposing viewpoint.

That goes for that rolleyes bullshit as well.
You kindof bring this on yourself by putting it into your arguments. But you do and it really shows in the bias you have in some of your points. It would be better if it weren't pointed out and just stick to attacking the arguments (two wrongs don't make a right and all). All of your posts either include that, either mentioning it for you or is defensive against people who hold it against you.

As for the argument itself, I think you have a valid argument. And I hold win shares in higher esteem than pretty much any other metric, particularly hitting win shares. But, I just can't give it to Sheffield because, well, he's got too much help. Three other players with 24+ WS on the same team (and could someone tell me how in God's name Jeter has 6 fielding win shares? has he improved drastically this year or is he the same old Jeter being a paper tiger in the field?) Same with Manny having 4 teammates with 20+. So I have to go with Vlad, because he is most *valuable* to his team. I know this smacks of the "best player on the worst team in the playoffs" argument. But he has just as good of numbers as these others (we can assume that with all the contention, we all agree that they are *close*, right?) and is on a team with less help but nearly as many wins. That said, if the Angels don't make the playoffs, well, then things could change.

SI

[oykib]

What does the MVP have to do with help?

You can look at the numbers and they will give a clear view of who's good.

The various metrics are split on who the best offensive player is.

It could be Vlad, Sheffield, Manny, or Ichiro. So what tie-breakers can we use to seperate them since you can choose whatever metric you like to support the guy you like?

It's short-sighted of anyone to call Sheffield a bad fielder. There is no significant difference between the qualifiers at RF between 5 and 8. In my argument I grant that Vlad is a better fielder. But even that is only slightly so this year.

Manny, on the other hand, is not just below average-- or even bad. He's god awful. I mean he's almost historically bad. Ther is only one player out of the three that gets a net minus for what he contributes in the field-- that's Manny.

The ability to play RF at all is a net plus compared to LF. And any manager is going to take a RF with an .850 ZR, double-digit assists, and a .980 FPct. without complaint.

That's a reasoned argument. For all you guys who cry homer, I'm not the one who said, going against both numbers and reputation, that Manny had been a good fielder this year. I made a reasoned and reasonable argument. You can quibble with my reading of the facts, but I-- at least-- present all of them and the reasoning for my interpretation of them.

As to your reasoning, SI, that's perfectly up to you in a case where the numbers are this close. I use different tie-breakers. But I've already conceded that it's all but a toss-up between Sheffield and Vlad.

Manny on the other hand, has clear areas where he doesn't stack up to the other two. Unless you can somehow refute those arguments.

If you want to argue that there a significant differce between Vlad and Gary's defensive stats, you'e welcome to. Of course, you'd be a moron. The difference is obviously slight. Vlad gets to about one-and-a-half balls per hundred that have been judged catchable more than Sheffield. Sheffield is about one-play-per-hundred more reliable when he gets to the ball. They have an almost equal number of assists.

I think the tie-breaker between the two has to come from somewhere else because their defensive stats are so close and well within the margin for error. But anyone could reasonably argue that a feather's weight worth of difference is still clear difference.

But either one of them has stark advantages over Manny in the field. That cannot be reasonably argued. The only stat that gives Manny any credit as fielder is Win Shares. And the author's stated weaknesses of the system are obviously in play in his case. In any event, if you wanted to use Win Shares, then Sheffield would still not only beat Manny-- but blow him out of the water.

I happen to be supporting the Yankee here. But have you heard me advocate for a Yankee for MVP before?

I never make a baseball argument without data to support it.