We have a NBA RIOT in DETROIT! (The 2004 Palace Fight)

[SirFozzie]

You guys watching this shit?

Totally classless Detroit Idiots.

Completely awful

[Blackadar]

Details, please

[DeToxRox]

Ben Wallace and Ron Artest get in each others faces.

Artest sits on scorers table. Not sure what happens but next thing is Artest runs into the crowd after a fan. Jackson and O'Neal run up. Brawl ensues in the crowd.

[DeToxRox]

Then Artest and O'Neal go after fans on the court (idiots for being on the court, I am actually glad they got theres but it was excessive). A Pacer coach or player not in uniform sucker punches someone.

Pacers leave the court, get showered in beer and such (also retarded by the Pistons fans).

I dunno what else.

[sovereignstar]

Nice fans.

[DeToxRox]

I have NO idea why Artest went into the crowd though.

I didn't see anything thrown.

Did anyone else?

[sovereignstar]

Where's the torrent!?!?!

[Noop]

Haha

[Bubba Wheels]

Haven't seen it yet, but if Pacer's went up into the crowd to cause the problem, how is it the classless, idiot Detroiter's (Palace is in the Auburn Hills suburb) fault?

[Radii]

holy shit!

[DeToxRox]

dola: I am assuming for now something was said. if nothing was thrown and only said, Artest is AN IDIOT for running into the crowd. I can see if something was thrown moreso then said because thats life in the NBA (being trashed talked) and he should be able to handle it.

if it was something thrown, i can't say I blame him.

[SirFozzie]

Because the idiot classless fans were throwing things at em to start it.

Or because you are an NBA player, you are a moving target only?

[DeToxRox]

And as a Piston fan I will say: The guys on the court = jackasses. Though it is possible they were on the court because they were in the front and the Pacers charged through their seats. Artest made the first punch on him. But still stupid.

The fans throwing stuff on them as they leave the court, thats just retarded. I can't believe how idiotic they are.

[SackAttack]

I didn't see it, so I won't comment, other than to say that I just want anybody who says they don't blame Artest if something was thrown to consider how they reacted to the Milton Bradley incident, and ask themselves if they're being consistent.

Not directing this at anybody in particular, just saying it now, BEFORE any discussion takes place.

[Bubba Wheels]

I know Artest has been taking a beating in the media for his desire to sit out the first month and 'finish his rap album", maybe the pressure of all that scrutiny got to him.

[DeToxRox]

tirple dola: a cup of beer thrown at artest started it. this was just ugly.

pistons fans were idiots tonight, but so was artest. he went in, but then kept looking for fights. that is as idiotic as the pistons fans for throwing shit.

[dacman]

Artest was hit at point blank range by a cup of beer per Jim Gray.

Lots of Detriot "fans" throwing punches as Artest and later Stephan Jackson went into the stands.

Yeah, Artest is an idiot for going into the stands, but the Detriot "fans" are most significantly to blame.

[DeToxRox]

props to rick mahorn who was doing radio commentary. he actually got up to try and break some of it up. needless to say, he was about the only one.

[GoldenEagle]

Artest got his ass whooped by a short fat white guy.

[sovereignstar]

tirple dola: a cup of beer thrown at artest started it. this was just ugly.

pistons fans were idiots tonight, but so was artest. he went in, but then kept looking for fights. that is as idiotic as the pistons fans for throwing shit.
Hold on just a fucking second here. Triple dola?

I don't think so. Wasn't even a dola in the first place. Carry on...

:D

[dacman]

The NBA and all sports are going to have to take a serious look at fan behavior and security or I greatly fear a repeat of a Monica Seles type incident or worse before something is done.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Severe and swift criminal prosecution?? No beer?? I don't know, but I hate to think an athlete has to get seriously injured or worse before something is done. This has been brewing for years, especially in the NBA where the fans are so close to the players and have relatively easy access.

I hope severe measures are taken on all sides.

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, so Detroit gets another black eye cause some useless fans took a swing at an enraged (maybe rightfully so) player going up into the stands. But major league baseball players will tell you they get it evey night in Yankee stadium from fans throwing batteries out of the stands at them. Let's keep some perspective.

[DeToxRox]

Hold on just a fucking second here. Triple dola?

I don't think so. Wasn't even a dola in the first place. Carry on...

:D


Haha damn you. I'm trying to provide a blow by blow, don't DOLA police me!

[Blackadar]

So is the game a forfeit?

[Noop]

Stephan Jackson is gone. He was not attacked by any fan and he just busted some fan in the mouth.

[VPI97]

Artest got his ass whooped by a short fat white guy.
The NBA - It's FAN-tastic!

[Bubba Wheels]

Artest got his ass whooped by a short fat white guy.

SHHHHHHH, I was supposed to be working late at the office

[DeToxRox]

The NBA and all sports are going to have to take a serious look at fan behavior and security or I greatly fear a repeat of a Monica Seles type incident or worse before something is done.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Severe and swift criminal prosecution?? No beer?? I don't know, but I hate to think an athlete has to get seriously injured or worse before something is done. This has been brewing for years, especially in the NBA where the fans are so close to the players and have relatively easy access.

I hope severe measures are taken on all sides.

Prosecution is bound to happen. Plenty of people on both sides on video doing idotic things. ESPN and local coverage tonight. You can bet some charges are going to be filed.

[DeToxRox]

So is the game a forfeit?

Game was called with 45 seconds left, Pacers had the lead so they won.

[DeToxRox]

Stephan Jackson is gone. He was not attacked by any fan and he just busted some fan in the mouth.

Yeah, I haven't seen anything to provoke Jackson to hit that guy. I know it's a malay but that guy was sucker punched.

[dacman]

Yeah, Stephan Jackson and Ron Artest are probably looking at 10 games if not more.

[The_herd]

Yeah, Stephan Jackson and Ron Artest are probably looking at 10 games if not more.

Plenty of time to promote an album.

[DeToxRox]

the best source so far is local detroit sportscaster bernie smileovich. he was right in the middle of it all getting ready for the post game wrap up. he said artest had a beer thrown at him, and then next thing he knew he seens punches thrown.

[The_herd]

I'm not a big Artest fan, but I can't say I blame him. A lot of people here would probably react the same to a beer being thrown at them. He's going to be suspended, but this wasn't your typical Artest being a jackass.

Stephen Jackson should be gone for a while. 10 games should be the absolute minimum and it should definintely be longer than any suspention Artest gets.

All fans involved should see some serious reprocusions and I'm certain the environment at Pistons games will change. Things like this don't happen without some serious changes to the way things are done.

[Schmidty]

Unbelievable. Ron Artest and Stephen Hunter throwing full-out punches at anyone they saw. I hope they're gone forever.

The people that threw stuff at the beginning are losers and deserve to be arrested, but after that, you have giant men twice the size as everyone in the stands throwing punches at anyone they saw. If I witnessed that, I would have been tempted to throw a cup of soda too (although I would NEVER have done it).

So now I get to hear everyone in Detroit getting insulted because of a few drunk morons and a few insane, fuck-head millionaire jackasses who can't control themselves. Damn it.

[LloydLungs]

If they can determine that Stephen Jackson was unprovoked, I wonder if we may be talking about the whole season for him. That's what Spree got for choking Carlesimo.

As for Artest, given his special circumstances, his punishment should be playing all 48 minutes every night with no breaks ever. Maybe he won't get the whole season since he got a beer tossed on him though.

Awaiting Simmons column on this....

[sovereignstar]

I love the title of this thread.

[Blackadar]

Imagine that. A riot in Detriot. Who'd have thunk it? :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting to see Larry Brown's comments, which included a comment that he thought his players should have gone into the crowd to protect Artest & Jackson.

And he's right.

If an arena can cut off beer sales at a Metallica concert at 8:50pm (Metallica didn't appear on stage until nearly 9 pm), then there's no reason the NBA, MLB, et al can't do the same thing.

[Mustang]

Artest got his ass whooped by a short fat white guy.

George Costanza was at the game?

[DeToxRox]

Also, had this not even happened, Artest would probably be in some water. Up 15, he doesn't even go after the ball and just basically tries to take out Ben Wallace.

Then Artest sits on the time table and puts on someones headphones and does some Artest Play by Play apparently. Ben Wallace is gone for a few games for throwing a headband or towel at Artest as well I assume.

[SirFozzie]

Comeon, Detox, that wasn't even a particularly hard foul.

Wallace completely overreacted.

[stevew]

I would strongly doubt the players association is gonna let either of them be suspended for 10 games. That is way too harsh. Damn this thread is popular right now.

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 31 (27 members and 4 guests)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Also, watching the first Jackson punch (I don't know if there's more that I haven't seen yet) it appears to be thrown at a guy who was heading toward the Artest scrum. If so, I've got no problem with that at all, he's removing what he sees as a threat to a teammate.

[The_herd]

Also, had this not even happened, Artest would probably be in some water. Up 15, he doesn't even go after the ball and just basically tries to take out Ben Wallace.

Then Artest sits on the time table and puts on someones headphones and does some Artest Play by Play apparently. Ben Wallace is gone for a few games for throwing a headband or towel at Artest as well I assume.

I think Ben Wallace is looking at a pretty nice suspention too. Artest gave him a hard foul and Wallace overreacted. Wallace putting his hands in Artests face and shoving him into the scorer's table is what led to the crowd getting involved.

Ugly, ugly situation and I don't think Wallace is getting enough blame for it.

[DeToxRox]

Comeon, Detox, that wasn't even a particularly hard foul.

Wallace completely overreacted.

But up 15, with 45 seconds left. It's uncalled for.

[DeToxRox]

Bah. I forgot to say. Wallace was overracting, I am just saying Artest shouldn't have even done it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Still watching the ESPNews coverage & something Jim Grey said just dawned on me -- Artest was hit with a bottle of beer? Huh? WTF??? Please tell me that there isn't an arena in this country fucking stupid enough to give fans bottles instead of putting the beer in a plastic cup.

[dacman]

No, no -- plastic cup. Not a bottle.

[SackAttack]

Usually what you see is plastic bottles with the cap off so that pressure can't build up inside the bottle.

It's what was thrown at Milton Bradley.

We aren't talkin' glass bottles here, but still hurts more than your average paper cup.

[GoldenEagle]

Wallace started the whole thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Thanks dacman, I thought that was strange, but Grey & Walton actually said the word "bottle" at least twice. The first time, I figured it was just a misstatement but after hearing it twice, I thought maybe they really meant it.

[DeToxRox]

Here is my question..

Does Frank .. bah forgot his last name now. The Rangers pitcher who threw the chair. Does that get any consideration in dishing out suspensions? I think some, though from what I recall he was totally at fault.

[sovereignstar]

George Costanza was at the game?
George isn't fat, he's stocky. He can like lift 100 pounds right over his head.

[DeToxRox]

Wallace started the whole thing.

Yeah. I was watching this with my dad and I told him that Wallace throwing whatever it was he threw would get him suspended. What resulted though you can't possible forsee.

[DeToxRox]

George isn't fat, he's stocky. He can like lift 100 pounds right over his head.

apparently artest didn't have a good hue.

[SirFozzie]

They should do what FIFA do when soccer hooligans ruin a game..

make the team play their next 2-3 home games in front of an empty arena. No fans allowed. Hit em in the pocketbook.

Oh, Gary, I see you're reading this thread.. This ISN'T in TPB2005 is it? :D

[Schmidty]

Wallace completely overreacted.

Kind of like punching a tree when the Red Sox lose?

[msf518]

Got it on Tivo...interesting seeing all the intracacies of the fight happening in slow motion after the fact, the little things before hand that led to the great aggression. The Pacers were showboating on dunks right before that, and I bet Wallace was pissed off about that, and because normally Artest is just a clueless punk anyways.

[VPI97]

Still watching the ESPNews coverage & something Jim Grey said just dawned on me -- Artest was hit with a bottle of beer? Huh? WTF??? Please tell me that there isn't an arena in this country fucking stupid enough to give fans bottles instead of putting the beer in a plastic cup.It looked like a plastic cup...not a bottle at all.

Edit - I'm slow

[DeToxRox]

Apparently its now being said that Artest hit the wrong guy. They're still checking it out but Artest apparently attacked the wrong guy.

[Schmidty]

Wallace started the whole thing.

And that makes him responsible for all of the moronic DECISIONS that were made after that?

Um, no.

[SirFozzie]

Kind of like punching a tree when the Red Sox lose?

yup.

Never said I was perfect.

[DeToxRox]

Schmidity, don't go into the stands after Fozz.

[DeToxRox]

Bernie Smileovich swears Artest hit the wrong fan. So the guy who came to help him who got clobbed by Jackson was helping an innocent fan.

If this is the case and can be proven, Artest is in SERIOUS trouble.

[Schmidty]

make the team play their next 2-3 home games in front of an empty arena. No fans allowed. Hit em in the pocketbook.


What a moronic post.

Yeah, let's ban all good fans and innocent people becauase of a few dumbasses.

[SirFozzie]

Got it on Tivo...interesting seeing all the intracacies of the fight happening in slow motion after the fact, the little things before hand that led to the great aggression. The Pacers were showboating on dunks right before that, and I bet Wallace was pissed off about that, and because normally Artest is just a clueless punk anyways.


GET THAT SUCKER ON A WEBSITE OR A BITTORRENT NOW , YOU!

Piece of NBA history.

This is going to be studied like the Zapruder film

[stevew]

The NBA gave guys like 3 games for domestic violence incidents(Glen Robinson and Jason Richardson) last season. If they give a bunch of time for this situation, it would be like saying "its not that big of a deal if you push your girlfriend around, but if you chase after some drunken fan, thats fucking horrible!"

[SirFozzie]

What a moronic post.

Yeah, let's ban all good fans and innocent people becauase of a few dumbasses.

Works elsewhere in the world, Schmidty.

if the Pistons can't control their idiot fans, (and I'm not saying all/a majority/even many of the Pistons fans are idiots), then don't let em have em for a couple games

[Schmidty]

yup.

Never said I was perfect.

Then don't insult all Detroit fans either. Hypocrite.

[DeToxRox]

The NBA gave guys like 3 games for domestic violence incidents(Glen Robinson and Jason Richardson) last season. If they give a bunch of time for this situation, it would be like saying "its not that big of a deal if you push your girlfriend around, but if you chase after some drunken fan, thats fucking horrible!"

Again, its being reported Artest hit the wrong fan. He should be gone for a long time if this is true.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No matter what player did what tonight, hell, no matter what fan did what, I believe the largest burden belongs on the NBA (it's their incident, they take the beating tonight, but I don't believe any league is particularly innocent).

Move the fans away from the fucking court, stop turning arenas into bars, put adequate & ample security in every arena ... or expect to see this sort of thing become commonplace.

[SirFozzie]

Then don't insult all Detroit fans either. Hypocrite.

Reading skills are fundamental, sir.

You should try it sometime.

[Blackadar]

Here's the ESPN/AP description of the event

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (AP) -- Indiana's Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson charged into the stands and fought with fans in the final minute of their game against the Detroit Pistons on Friday night, forcing an early and ugly end to the Pacers' 97-82 win.

The game was stopped with 45.9 seconds remaining when a pushing and shoving between the teams spilled into the stands after fans began throwing things at the players near the scorer's table.

"It's the ugliest thing I've seen as a coach or player," Pistons coach Larry Brown said.

After several minutes of players fighting with fans in the stands, the Pacers were pelted with beer, ice, and popcorn as they made their way to the locker room in one of the scariest brawls in an NBA game.

The Palace announcer said the game was being stopped and pleaded with fans not to throw things.

It all started when Detroit's Ben Wallace went in for a layup and was fouled hard by Artest.

Wallace wheeled around and pushed Artest in the face. The benches emptied and punches were thrown.

As the players continued shoving each other near center court and coaches tried to restore order, Artest lay on his back on the scorer's table.

Just when it appeared tempers had died down, Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands. He jumped up, and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

Fans were punching back, and Jackson and another teammate joined Artest in the melee. A Pistons player came running into the crowd.

Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands.

As the crowd roared, drinks and debris showered the court and the Pacers players covered their heads as they hustled through the runway leading to the locker room.

[Bearcat729]

Still watching the ESPNews coverage & something Jim Grey said just dawned on me -- Artest was hit with a bottle of beer? Huh? WTF??? Please tell me that there isn't an arena in this country fucking stupid enough to give fans bottles instead of putting the beer in a plastic cup.


Not after the Browns - Jaguars game a few years ago. Actually I thought they took the plastic bottles away after that game

[Blackadar]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/photos?photoId=634082&gameId=241119008

[Schmidty]

Reading skills are fundamental, sir.

You should try it sometime.

That was a cogent point. Thanks for being the pot.

[Noop]

I am sorry but S.Jackson and O'Neal need to be gon for the season or atleast 20+ games they werent attacked by any fans... that shit was uncalled for...

[DeToxRox]

Funny that last night Fox Sports Detroit replayed Detroit/Colorado, Fight Night 96, and then tomorrow is Michigan/Ohio State.

[LloydLungs]

Well, looking at the replay again, Artest may have gotten the wrong fan -- but the fan he DID get was taunting him like a fucking idiot. You've got an NBA player just hit square-on with a beer, why do you make yourself LOOK guilty by pointing and taunting the enraged dude coming up into the stands. He may have been innocent, and if so Artest's punishment should be stiffer, but what an idiot.

This better end up being more about the fans than the players.

[SirFozzie]

That was a cogent point. Thanks for being the pot.


heck, if you weren't so fired up to defend the pretty much indefensible action of a minority of Detroit's fans, this thing wouldn't have gotten kicked off in the first place.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

So, who won?

[DeToxRox]

Well, looking at the replay again, Artest may have gotten the wrong fan -- but the fan he DID get was taunting him like a fucking idiot. You've got an NBA player just hit square-on with a beer, why do you make yourself LOOK guilty by pointing and taunting the enraged dude coming up into the stands. He may have been innocent, and if so Artest's punishment should be stiffer, but what an idiot.

This better end up being more about the fans than the players.

Yeah but if you're a player, you cannot go into the stands. Only bad things can happen. Any time a players ever gone into the crowd in any sports, it's NEVER been good. I don't condone what happened, but everyone handled the situation terribly.

[stevew]

Isnt there some provision that Athletes are able to wreck ass to defend themselves. If they feel threatened, anything goes.

[SirFozzie]

Oofda.

The rematch is Christmas Day on ESPN at 12:30.

They did the impossible. Reduced Shaq v Kobe to undercard status.

[GoldenEagle]

So shoving someone just because you got fouled is acceptable now?

[DeToxRox]

So shoving someone just because you got fouled is acceptable now?

ben was stupid for doing it. but it happens. and i said, ben will get suspended for 2 games and fine most likely for a mix of the things he did. but it happens all the time, and thats the problem.

[Gary Gorski]

Oh, Gary, I see you're reading this thread.. This ISN'T in TPB2005 is it? :D

Up until now I didn't even figure on it happening in the NBA

All I can say is what a bunch of idiots. Frankly I blame Artest the most for the brawl. What he did was uncalled for and totally a cheap shot and extremely Artest-like. Ben shouldn't have done what he did but I understand it - it was not a hard foul, it was a blatant cheap shot which could have very easily injured Wallace and injured him severly. As for the fans who threw stuff - just stupid. Buying a ticket gives you the right to yell and scream and say what you want - it does not give you the right to throw stuff at players, coaches, officials or anyone else.

On the other hand there is no reason for Artest, Jackson or anyone else to be up in the stands or reason for fans to be on the floor. So what - a guy threw a beer at Artest. That guy should be arrested and escorted out - that is not a license to go up into the crowd and start swinging - especially since people who had nothing to do with it got put in harms way. All in all, a disgusting and disgraceful situation. I hope Stern drops the hammer on Artest and Jackson - I'd say 20 games or less is a slap on the wrist for them. Wallace should get the normal fine/suspension for doing what he did but IMO what Artest and Jackson did was not only by far worse but by far more dangerous endangering people courtside who were just watching a game and not throwing things or planning on participating in a fight.

[stevew]

Oofda.

The rematch is Christmas Day on ESPN at 12:30.

They did the impossible. Reduced Shaq v Kobe to undercard status.

Nobody cares about Kobe anymore. He will quickly be supplanted by Lebron James as the premeire guard/small forward in the league.

[Schmidty]

My wife is forcing me to go play EQ2 to cool off. I just hate people that fuck with my guys and my state. If someone messes with my fellow Piston fans because of a few morons out of thousands, I'm gonna get pissed. I've always got my state's back.

Blah. I'm out of here.

[DeToxRox]

Fozz is just lucky his BoSox won the series or else .. he'd be hearing it from me. :)

[GoldenEagle]

ESPN takes the side of Artest, citing race. What a bunch of bull shit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just hate people that fuck with my guys and my state.


And a lot of people ain't real impressed with somebody who's "got their back" even when their actions are FUBAR.

Maybe Pistons games are just a substitute for Devil's Night.

[SirFozzie]

Just rewatched the video. Putting up on FTP.

[DeToxRox]

ESPN takes the side of Artest, citing race. What a bunch of bull shit.

Ha are you serious? That's a joke. Artest is an asshole, no matter how you feel about tonight. To take his side is a joke, pure and simple.

They are always all over TO, but TO cannot hold a candle to Artest.

[stevew]

Fans who come onto the court, deserve to get their ass kicked. What was Jackson supposed to do, let Artest get his ass kicked in the stands? He has to get his boy's back. Talk about shitty security, and some despicable fans.

[sovereignstar]

My wife is forcing me to go play EQ2 to cool off. I just hate people that fuck with my guys and my state. If someone messes with my fellow Piston fans because of a few morons out of thousands, I'm gonna get pissed. I've always got my state's back.

Blah. I'm out of here.
I'm not seeing a few morons. I'm seeing more like 40 and 50 morons.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Stephen A. Smith has the best idea I've heard yet ... the NBA should hand out punishment based on what happened on the court and not one thing about the rest.

Detroit got punked on the court & Ben Wallace & their fans couldn't deal with it.

[sovereignstar]

Fans who come onto the court, deserve to get their ass kicked. What was Jackson supposed to do, let Artest get his ass kicked in the stands? He has to get his boy's back. Talk about shitty security, and some despicable fans.
Jackson's straight punch appears to definitely have some merit to it. I'm not sure what the hell everyone else was seeing.

[Gary Gorski]

What I'm not enjoying is the ESPN commentators talking about how the fans should be thrown in jail and how the players have so much pent up rage and aggression hearing taunts from the fans....what a bunch of crap. Yeah, the guy who works on the assembly line 50 hours a week doing the same thing over and over...no way he has any pent up aggression. Only these NBA players who make millions playing a game are the ones frustrated because some jackass in the fifth row says his momma is fat. :rolleyes:

Nice job ESPN - way to lay ZERO blame on the players involved. The fans who participated in throwing stuff or worse going onto the floor deserve to be held responsible for their actions but so do the players - even if they do have all this built up aggression from their stressful lives and jobs :rolleyes:

[SirFozzie]

Low Res video of the fight . Please do not share outside this board. (http://www.thesbl.com/FansVsPacers.WMV)

[DeToxRox]

Stephen A. Smith has the best idea I've heard yet ... the NBA should hand out punishment based on what happened on the court and not one thing about the rest.

Detroit got punked on the court & Ben Wallace & their fans couldn't deal with it.

Yeah. Make them watch him host Dream Job.

EXTRA

I think that is a horrible idea, by the way. Whats to stop guys from going into the crowd whenever something happens and taking business into their own hands. Talk about HORRIBLE precident.

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah. Make them watch him host Dream Job.

Now THERE'S a punishment :D

[MrBug708]

Nobody cares about Kobe anymore. He will quickly be supplanted by Lebron James as the premeire guard/small forward in the league.
I see this country is still naive

[JonInMiddleGA]

Some different clips being shown now on ESPNews, and it's getting tough for me to keep things in chronological order.

I'm pretty solid on the Artest foul then Wallace shove then Artest on the scorer's table then beer on Artest ... and from the repeated clips, it looks like the next thing is Artest & Jackson in the stands.

What I'm not clear about is a set of scenes that happened on the court, best I can tell they happened sometime after the stuff in the stands. It looked like Artest & a fan, and Jermaine O'Neal (?) with what looked like a slide tackle on somebody in/near that melee. When did all this stuff happen? After players came back out of the stands? Or before?

[DeToxRox]

Some different clips being shown now on ESPNews, and it's getting tough for me to keep things in chronological order.

I'm pretty solid on the Artest foul then Wallace shove then Artest on the scorer's table then beer on Artest ... and from the repeated clips, it looks like the next thing is Artest & Jackson in the stands.

What I'm not clear about is a set of scenes that happened on the court, best I can tell they happened sometime after the stuff in the stands. It looked like Artest & a fan, and Jermaine O'Neal (?) with what looked like a slide tackle on somebody in/near that melee. When did all this stuff happen? After players came back out of the stands? Or before?

I think some people got up because the Pacers charged into the stands. This is understandable that if you're in the front you have to be able to move and get out of the way. But now you're on the court. They kept jabbing on the court, and they got attacked. It's within reason to assume they're idiots for being on there. Security was no where to be seen as this unfolded, so random fans are on the court. I think this is what caused the court malay.

[INDalltheway]

The guy Jackson hit in the stands threw a beer right in Artest's face! That was pretty shitty. The problem I have with the situation is Wallace attacking Artest in the neck, and face area. That is punk-like. He didn't even fight back, he was away from the conflict the best he could. I also noticed that just after Wallace threw what he threw at Artest, the fan threw the beer. 20+ games is just stupid, and I disagree with you guys that think Artest and Jackson should be gone that long. Self defense, even though it was taken too far, it was still self defense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Whats to stop guys from going into the crowd whenever something happens and taking business into their own hands. Talk about HORRIBLE precident.

I believe that's what we've come to -- fans have crossed a line that should never be crossed. And I don't believe we should ask, not for one minute, athletes no matter how much they make nor how jealous the average schmuck is of that, to simply be targets. And if there's not something done to bring the fans back in line p.d.q., we're only going to see it get worse.

There's no shortage of asshole athletes, but their numbers pale in comparison to the number of idiot fans I've encountered over the years.

Also, Mike Tirico makes a great point -- let's bring it down to real life, if somebody throws a beer on you as you're walking through Times Square, how are you going to react?

[DeToxRox]

The guy Jackson hit in the stands threw a beer right in Artest's face! That was pretty shitty. The problem I have with the situation is Wallace attacking Artest in the neck, and face area. That is punk-like. He didn't even fight back, he was away from the conflict the best he could. I also noticed that just after Wallace threw what he threw at Artest, the fan threw the beer. 20+ games is just stupid, and I disagree with you guys that think Artest and Jackson should be gone that long. Self defense, even though it was taken too far, it was still self defense.

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

[ice4277]

Also, Mike Tirico makes a great point -- let's bring it down to real life, if somebody throws a beer on you as you're walking through Times Square, how are you going to react?
You probably will end up going to jail, along with the guy throwing the beer on you. I understand the want to get back at the guy, but it doesn't give you a free pass to do what you want.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Security was no where to be seen as this unfolded, so random fans are on the court. I think this is what caused the court malay.

Without seeing all the footage from all the angles, I sure wouldn't want to swear to this but ... there looked like a good number of security personnel (guys in blue jackets?) in various places in the stands (because of the melee there). Slow to get there perhaps, but start showing up late in the sequence. If that's the case though, they really can't be in two places at the same time, so there's probably no way they could keep fans off the court moments later.

[DeToxRox]

I believe that's what we've come to -- fans have crossed a line that should never be crossed. And I don't believe we should ask, not for one minute, athletes no matter how much they make nor how jealous the average schmuck is of that, to simply be targets. And if there's not something done to bring the fans back in line p.d.q., we're only going to see it get worse.

There's no shortage of asshole athletes, but their numbers pale in comparison to the number of idiot fans I've encountered over the years.

Also, Mike Tirico makes a great point -- let's bring it down to real life, if somebody throws a beer on you as you're walking through Times Square, how are you going to react?

Okay, so when Joe Blow fan takes off his chains or has his rings on and decides he'll start shit with someone so they can come in the stands and he can just pummel them like a pussy, he won't be held accountable because hes defending himself?

doesn't mean he has to be the guy who started it, but he surely can say he was defending himself from a crazed 6'7, 250 lbs guy bumrushing into the crowd.

[stevew]

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

How do you know that guy wasnt calling him a "fucking n*gger" or some shit like that. The dude that ended up getting attacked was definately appearing to be talking some shit.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Im disgusted by the fans. Totally classless on their part. I cant believe they would do such a thing. The death of fan/player interaction.

[DeToxRox]

Without seeing all the footage from all the angles, I sure wouldn't want to swear to this but ... there looked like a good number of security personnel (guys in blue jackets?) in various places in the stands (because of the melee there). Slow to get there perhaps, but start showing up late in the sequence. If that's the case though, they really can't be in two places at the same time, so there's probably no way they could keep fans off the court moments later.

Having been to the Palace numerous times, I can honestly say security is good in the upper rows, but as you get lower, they normally float around the exits/entrances to stop people from getting into someone elses seat. But really, this is something that you can ever expect will happen, and now that it did, it'll be rectified.

though you would've thought that after the Malone incident in the Finals they'd have knew something might've happened.

[SirFozzie]

I won't even dignify pooryorick's twaddle except to say.

Do you think I LIKE being remembered on this board as the guy who went spazzoid over the Sox losing in Game 7 and did physical damage to myself, punching a tree in rage?

the rest of the bullshit.. don't know what you're smoking, man, but do you know that it's likely a controlled substance?

[cartman]

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

You can't. You get hit with a liquid substance? Unless it's Peter North creating the shower, if you are making millions, then you let the local law authorities handle it. You're heading to the showers in the next couple of minutes anyway. Artest is already on the hot seat for asking for time off to promote a rap album. It appears he'll have all the time he wants after this.

He was hit with a beer. Big whoop. I've never known a beer to draw blood.

[DeToxRox]

How do you know that guy wasnt calling him a "fucking n*gger" or some shit like that. The dude that ended up getting attacked was definately appearing to be talking some shit.

I played hockey with a black kid and I heard it all the time. But you know what, so had he. Sadly, he even told me he couldn't do anything about it and just ignored it. It happens everywhere he said, and at first he'd react but he kept getting penalized.

Do I agree with it? Absolutely not.
Does it happen all the time? Absolutely.

[dacman]

Your mama jokes? If only they were that tame.

I've seen things like: 1 guy tossing an individual kernal of popcorn every 10 seconds or so at a player.

Another guy obviously drunk calling my black teammate a f'n n***er every chance he could. Hell screaming it would be more accurate.

Another guy shooting water through his teeth at the players and coaches.

A kid (probably 12 or so) throwing a loose ball that got into the second row as hard as he could at a teammate sitting on the bench with his back to him and hitting him in the neck/lower head.

Having water/beer/other liquid thrown at us while entering/leaving the court. Profanity tirades. You name it.

And that was just Indiana HIGH SCHOOL basketball 10 years ago. I'm sure these kinds of things happen in the NBA to visiting teams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, so when Joe Blow fan takes off his chains or has his rings on and decides he'll start shit with someone so they can come in the stands and he can just pummel them like a pussy, he won't be held accountable because hes defending himself?

doesn't mean he has to be the guy who started it, but he surely can say he was defending himself from a crazed 6'7, 250 lbs guy bumrushing into the crowd.

In the NFL, there's generally (except for the end zones in some places) a good bit of distance to cover between fans & players.
In MLB, there's both distance & some physical restraints (foul screen, walls, dugout roofs, etc)
In the NHL, there's quite a bit of glass/plexiglass.
In the NBA, there's ... well, umm ...

I'm really surprised how much of my thoughts are being echoed in near real-time by the crew on ESPN-- while I'm typing this, they cover the need
to move the f'n fans back from the players.

[GoldenEagle]

I stand corrected, it was O'Neil who got his ass whipped by the short white fat guy. Artest has a law suit coming.

ESPN - "Blame this one on the fans"

[DeToxRox]

You can't. You get hit with a liquid substance? Unless it's Peter North creating the shower, if you are making millions, then you let the local law authorities handle it. You're heading to the showers in the next couple of minutes anyway. Artest is already on the hot seat for asking for time off to promote a rap album. It appears he'll have all the time he wants after this.

He was hit with a beer. Big whoop. I've never known a beer to draw blood.

lmao. Peter North line. Classic.

[stevew]

I won't even dignify pooryorick's twaddle except to say.

Do you think I LIKE being remembered on this board as the guy who went spazzoid over the Sox losing in Game 7 and did physical damage to myself, punching a tree in rage?

the rest of the bullshit.. don't know what you're smoking, man, but do you know that it's likely a controlled substance?

You punched a tree after Boone went yard last year? That is funny as hell.

[Gary Gorski]

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

Exactly why you can't allow the athletes to go into the stands - its been reported locally and by Jim Gray (not that he's all that credible) that Artest did hit the wrong guy - the guy on the floor I really have no problem with getting punched by Artest and then O'Neal because he had no place on the floor but there is no reason players should be in the stands and the NBA needs to come down hard on Artest and Jackson for doing so. The fans should be in the stands, the players on the court and neither one has any business going any place else.

IF you say that its ok for the player to go into the stands to punch someone you are setting a very dangerous precedent. The fans are dead wrong for throwing anything and even more so for being on the court but you cannot let the players be the ones taking the law into their own hands - thats the job for arena security and police.

[DeToxRox]

In the NFL, there's generally (except for the end zones in some places) a good bit of distance to cover between fans & players.
In MLB, there's both distance & some physical restraints (foul screen, walls, dugout roofs, etc)
In the NHL, there's quite a bit of glass/plexiglass.
In the NBA, there's ... well, umm ...

I'm really surprised how much of my thoughts are being echoed in near real-time by the crew on ESPN-- while I'm typing this, they cover the need
to move the f'n fans back from the players.

See I agree with you there. The NBA needs to do something, because these people are way too close.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.

[Chief Rum]

I have NO idea why Artest went into the crowd though.

I didn't see anything thrown.

Did anyone else?

Perhaps he was handing out copies of his rap album?

(I'm just a few posts in when I post this, so I figure someone already kicked this one through the goalposts before me ;) )

CR

[The_herd]

Wow, I didn't see the chair thrown at J. O'Neil until just now...

[DeToxRox]

Exactly why you can't allow the athletes to go into the stands - its been reported locally and by Jim Gray (not that he's all that credible) that Artest did hit the wrong guy - the guy on the floor I really have no problem with getting punched by Artest and then O'Neal because he had no place on the floor but there is no reason players should be in the stands and the NBA needs to come down hard on Artest and Jackson for doing so. The fans should be in the stands, the players on the court and neither one has any business going any place else.

IF you say that its ok for the player to go into the stands to punch someone you are setting a very dangerous precedent. The fans are dead wrong for throwing anything and even more so for being on the court but you cannot let the players be the ones taking the law into their own hands - thats the job for arena security and police.

Yup.

But this same thing happened, what, two years ago in Portland? Obviously the league didn't learn their lesson then.

[VPI97]

How do you know that guy wasnt calling him a "fucking n*gger" or some shit like that. The dude that ended up getting attacked was definately appearing to be talking some shit.Talking shit to someone does not give them the right to attack you. If the fan Artest went after is the wrong one, he should be put in jail.

[SirFozzie]

You punched a tree after Boone went yard last year? That is funny as hell.


Yup. Right after the homer, I stormed out of the house, drove a while, got out, and blew off steam by punching a tree. You can look the threads in question up.

At least I turned down my fanaticism of sports after that, (trust me, splinters in the hand for weeks is a good reminder).

Who knows, if it wasn't for that, I might be an idiot fan myself.. or I probably already was an idiot fan.

[cartman]

In English soccer, Eric Cantona got a pretty severe fine for going into the stands and doing his "kung fu kick" on a fan that was giving him grief.

[DeToxRox]

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.

I dunno why that ought to matter. They're regular people, just like NBA players.

[DeToxRox]

Yup. Right after the homer, I stormed out of the house, drove a while, got out, and blew off steam by punching a tree. You can look the threads in question up.

At least I turned down my fanaticism of sports after that, (trust me, splinters in the hand for weeks is a good reminder).

Who knows, if it wasn't for that, I might be an idiot fan myself.. or I probably already was an idiot fan.

Fozz, it's cool. When Michigan was losing to MSU badly a few weeks back broke a sega genises controller. Thankfully I never used it. Soon after I found a hacky sack that has relieved much anger.

[JonInMiddleGA]

IF you say that its ok for the player to go into the stands to punch someone you are setting a very dangerous precedent.

And I'm convinced that if the focus is on punishing the players then it's just a matter of time, a short time, before we get an American version of the Steffi Graf incident.

And if nobody else -- not the leagues, not the teams, not the arenas, nobody period -- is willing or able to protect them, then they don't have much choice but to defend themselves.

[Crapshoot]

Interesting to see Larry Brown's comments, which included a comment that he thought his players should have gone into the crowd to protect Artest & Jackson.

And he's right.

If an arena can cut off beer sales at a Metallica concert at 8:50pm (Metallica didn't appear on stage until nearly 9 pm), then there's no reason the NBA, MLB, et al can't do the same thing.

JIMGA's right on the money here. Being a drunken idiot who decides to make one's self part of the action doesnt entitle you to some protection from enraging people - the classless fans deserve what they get.

[cartman]

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.

Jim Grey carries absolutely zero credibility with me, after his Pete Rose stunt at the All Star game a couple of years ago. He could have been the announcer at the Red Sox World Series sweep, and I would have waited for independant confirmation.

[GoldenEagle]

This reminds me of a fight at my high school basketball game. It was between two rival teams and had just about everything that went on tonight, minus the beer. I think there was something like 100 suspensions from that one incident.

[SirFozzie]

Thanks DeToxRoxDVHStyle, but it's a good reminder that I scared the crap out of a bunch of folks (including my parents) when I stormed out of the house, without saying a word, and just went peeling out.

As I keep saying, there's a line between fan and fanatic, and you don't know which side you're on until you're way over the line.

[DeToxRox]

Jim Grey carries absolutely zero credibility with me, after his Pete Rose stunt at the All Star game a couple of years ago. He could have been the announcer at the Red Sox World Series sweep, and I would have waited for independant confirmation.

on fire.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I dunno why that ought to matter. They're regular people, just like NBA players.

Well, among other things, it raises serious questions about the people that are being credentialed. (The most notable one is the large guy in the gray sweatshirt that sucker punches Artest near the aisle)

edit to correct: The victim of the sucker punch was Jones, not Artest.

[stevew]

Yup. Right after the homer, I stormed out of the house, drove a while, got out, and blew off steam by punching a tree. You can look the threads in question up.

At least I turned down my fanaticism of sports after that, (trust me, splinters in the hand for weeks is a good reminder).

Who knows, if it wasn't for that, I might be an idiot fan myself.. or I probably already was an idiot fan.

Man, and i dont mean to laugh, but that is funny as hell. I remember being pretty darn pissed when Mitch Williams served cheese up to Joe Carter in the World Series, but i didnt hit a tree. I guess i just knew when Williams came in that the game was over. Thanks for the laugh tho, its been a pretty hard day.

[GoldenEagle]

But they will not do the same becuase beer makes $$$$

[stevew]

And I'm convinced that if the focus is on punishing the players then it's just a matter of time, a short time, before we get an American version of the Steffi Graf incident.

And if nobody else -- not the leagues, not the teams, not the arenas, nobody period -- is willing or able to protect them, then they don't have much choice but to defend themselves.

Dont you mean Monica Seles?

[JonInMiddleGA]

This reminds me of a fight at my high school basketball game. It was between two rival teams and had just about everything that went on tonight, minus the beer. I think there was something like 100 suspensions from that one incident.

LOL, I don't believe I remember any suspensions, but HS basketball games are by far the most violent & most dangerous sports incidents I've ever personally been around.

Of course, most of those involved referees ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dont you mean Monica Seles?

Eh, it's late. And I ain't exactly the world's biggest tennis fan.

[SirFozzie]

Man, and i dont mean to laugh, but that is funny as hell. I remember being pretty darn pissed when Mitch Williams served cheese up to Joe Carter in the World Series, but i didnt hit a tree. I guess i just knew when Williams came in that the game was over. Thanks for the laugh tho, its been a pretty hard day.

I'm glad my stupidity amuses you :) :D

[DeToxRox]

Well, among other things, it raises serious questions about the people that are being credentialed. (The most notable one is the large guy in the gray sweatshirt that sucker punches Artest near the aisle)

credientaled people are on football sidelines all the time. whats not to stop them from running onto the field?

so why are they there? probably the same reason that guy was at the piston game, you don't expect this to happen.

[Crapshoot]

What I'm not enjoying is the ESPN commentators talking about how the fans should be thrown in jail and how the players have so much pent up rage and aggression hearing taunts from the fans....what a bunch of crap. Yeah, the guy who works on the assembly line 50 hours a week doing the same thing over and over...no way he has any pent up aggression. Only these NBA players who make millions playing a game are the ones frustrated because some jackass in the fifth row says his momma is fat. :rolleyes:

Nice job ESPN - way to lay ZERO blame on the players involved. The fans who participated in throwing stuff or worse going onto the floor deserve to be held responsible for their actions but so do the players - even if they do have all this built up aggression from their stressful lives and jobs :rolleyes:

Oh spare me- your letting your disdain for NBA players get in the way of your judgement. Tell you what Gary- let me come to where you work coding TPB 2005, throw beer on you, and scream bloody murder when you get up to do something about it. Why the hell does their salary not entitle them to human emotions ? Is he supposed not to get angry because he makes more money than you ?

[Gary Gorski]

And I'm convinced that if the focus is on punishing the players then it's just a matter of time, a short time, before we get an American version of the Steffi Graf incident.

And if nobody else -- not the leagues, not the teams, not the arenas, nobody period -- is willing or able to protect them, then they don't have much choice but to defend themselves.

That is what the police are for JIMGA - dude gets drunk and idiotic and lobs a beer at a player the police arrest him and take him down to the pokey - end of situation. Idiot player charges into the stands and starts swinging and now the problem is magnified 100 times.

What did Artest have to defend himself from? What Wallace did to him was worse than getting hit by a plastic cup of beer yet he didn't have any desire to fight Ben. One problem with spectator sports is that the participants are NEVER truly safe from a spectator that wishes to cause them harm. Justifying players going into the crowd to fight spectators will not change the fact that some day a fan could cause great bodily harm to a player - it only endangers the fans who have and want nothing to do with an altercation.

[DeToxRox]

I'm glad my stupidity amuses you :) :D

your only stupidity was supporting the bosox. tigers in 05. :)

[SirFozzie]

your only stupidity was supporting the bosox. tigers in 05. :)

Now that we got ours, I wouldn't be so pissed at that ;) (of course I want a repeat)

[cartman]

LOL, I don't believe I remember any suspensions, but HS basketball games are by far the most violent & most dangerous sports incidents I've ever personally been around.

Of course, most of those involved referees ;)

Tell mre about it. We had a donkey basketball game my senior year. We were down by one with 10 seconds left. Jennie McGrath threw an inbounds pass to me, which went over my head. I held on to the reins, got the ball, climbed on top of my poor donkey, and made a slam Dominique would have been proud of to win the game.

But no, the Ass Owners said I let go of the reins to get the ball, thereby negating my basket.

If someone would have thrown a beer on me at that point, I definitely would have gone Artest on them.

[Gary Gorski]

Oh spare me- your letting your disdain for NBA players get in the way of your judgement. Tell you what Gary- let me come to where you work coding TPB 2005, throw beer on you, and scream bloody murder when you get up to do something about it. Why the hell does their salary not entitle them to human emotions ? Is he supposed not to get angry because he makes more money than you ?

Whoa there - I have no disdain for most NBA players - I actually come to their defense more often than not - and their salary has nothing to do with entitling them to human emotions. They can have all the emotions they want - acting on them is different. If you come and throw a beer on me it does not give me the right to get up and assault you. Sure I may want to and sure I may go ahead and punch you but that doesn't make it right or legal to do so.

There is a MAJOR difference between feeling like doing something and actually doing it. That is why we have law enforcement - to arrest the idiot throwing the beer. It is the players job to play basketball - not to brawl with fans.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That is what the police are for JIMGA - dude gets drunk and idiotic and lobs a beer at a player the police arrest him and take him down to the pokey - end of situation. ...

Clearly, those closest to the situation (the players) don't have a whole lot of confidence in the designated authorities willingness, ability, or capability, of doing that. And I can't really say that I blame them, especially not when they're on the road -- hell, I've seen high school kids who had to be protected by their own county deputies for road games because no one (and I do mean NO one) felt local (i.e. the opponent's county) authorities would perform their duties.

One problem with spectator sports is that the participants are NEVER truly safe from a spectator that wishes to cause them harm.

And that's something that needs to be addressed. Perhaps not to the point of perfection, there's nearly always a way if someone is determined enough, but the current state of on-field security is a tragedy waiting to happen.

[GoldenEagle]

LOL, I don't believe I remember any suspensions, but HS basketball games are by far the most violent & most dangerous sports incidents I've ever personally been around.

Of course, most of those involved referees ;)

We always got on the refs but they were not invovled in this one. I think it was at halftime when one of the fans from our rivals put their logo on the court. One of our basketball players just had to be walking by and clocked himf for it. All hell broke lose then. It was funny watching massive girl fights but the guy fights were really serious. It took about 15 minutes to get it all settled. It would have helped if they would have had soem male teachers on duty. The female techaersjust had to wait for the cops to show up which took them like 10 minutes to get into riot gear. They actaully had reinforcments from the Memphis PD who were use to that kind of crap and they didn't play :D

[Crapshoot]

Whoa there - I have no disdain for most NBA players - I actually come to their defense more often than not - and their salary has nothing to do with entitling them to human emotions. They can have all the emotions they want - acting on them is different. If you come and throw a beer on me it does not give me the right to get up and assault you. Sure I may want to and sure I may go ahead and punch you but that doesn't make it right or legal to do so.

There is a MAJOR difference between feeling like doing something and actually doing it. That is why we have law enforcement - to arrest the idiot throwing the beer. It is the players job to play basketball - not to brawl with fans.

And when the law enforcement failed here, they have every right to defend themselves against dumbass fans who percieve that they are above reproach. If I keep throwing beer at you and no is doing a thing, should you stop me or not ? If you called a sand n***er, I'd punch you- at some point, you deserve it for your stupidity. Legality is usually the safe reproach- but extenuating circumstances exist.

[Chief Rum]

So I'm playing EQ2 as my favorite Half-orc Thief when this huge Dark Elf Warrior named "F-You Foz" comes out of nowhere and just completely PKing me over and over and saying "Artest die" or something like that. WTF?

CR

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll risk a dolapost here ;)

Whoa there - I have no disdain for most NBA players - I actually come to their defense more often than not - and their salary has nothing to do with entitling them to human emotions.

That's one of the things I find most ... dare I say "ironic" ... about this situation. I'm probably one of the most critical people when it comes to the players in the NBA, and here I am defending them almost unilaterally.

Aside from that, and in a general sense not specific to you, I strongly believe that overall public reaction to this over the next few days will be dictated quite a bit by salary envy.

[Gary Gorski]

Clearly, those closest to the situation (the players) don't have a whole lot of confidence in the designated authorities willingness, ability, or capability, of doing that.

Be that as it may that still does not justify letting people who are not law enforcement trying to take the law into their own hands. The players who punched fans are just as guilty of assault as the fans who thew chairs and punches especially considering that at least Artest punched someone who did not throw something at him.


And that's something that needs to be addressed. Perhaps not to the point of perfection, there's nearly always a way if someone is determined enough, but the current state of on-field security is a tragedy waiting to happen.

As it is in all sports and unless you're not going to allow spectators there's nothing you can do about it except have security surround the court/field/diamond and immediately arrest any fan coming onto the playing surface. There is no excuse for fans to be on the playing surface and no reason for players to go into the stands.

[GoldenEagle]

So I'm playing EQ2 as my favorite Half-orc Thief when this huge Dark Elf Warrior named "F-You Foz" comes out of nowhere and just completely PKing me over and over and saying "Artest die" or something like that. WTF?

CR

OMG, WTF? LOL

[msf518]

NBA...I LOVE THIS GAME!!!

[cartman]

And when the law enforcement failed here, they have every right to defend themselves against dumbass fans who percieve that they are above reproach. If I keep throwing beer at you and no is doing a thing, should you stop me or not ? If you called a sand n***er, I'd punch you- at some point, you deserve it for your stupidity. Legality is usually the safe reproach- but extenuating circumstances exist.


keep throwing beer, yes.

But by all accounts, this was the first beer thrown, and Artest just goes after the 1st fan that stands in front of him.

If it's only a beer, you let the local law enforcement make the first move.

[cartman]

Dola,

Unless you are looking for time off to promote a rap album.

[JonInMiddleGA]

We always got on the refs but they were not invovled in this one. ...

Scariest incident I ever saw was a fan (sister of our PF) heading for a ref with murder in her eye & a knife in her hand. A fan waylaid her just long enough for cops to restrain her about 5 feet away from the oblivious official.

No charges were filed however ... since 3 of her brother's 5 fouls were totally bogus & we were playing at home :D

[GoldenEagle]

Dola,

Unless you are looking for time off to promote a rap album.

That is a good point. He will have plenty of time to promote his album now.

[Gary Gorski]

And when the law enforcement failed here, they have every right to defend themselves against dumbass fans who percieve that they are above reproach. If I keep throwing beer at you and no is doing a thing, should you stop me or not ? If you called a sand n***er, I'd punch you- at some point, you deserve it for your stupidity. Legality is usually the safe reproach- but extenuating circumstances exist.

I understand what you are saying and yes, Im sure it would be hard for someone to show restraint in that situation but just because you can justify it from a human emotion standpoint does not make it ok or legal.

What I find interesting is that Artest didn't seem to take too much offense to Wallace shoving him in his face/throat but when a fan throws a beer at him THEN he's ready to fight.

[samifan24]

Jim Grey carries absolutely zero credibility with me, after his Pete Rose stunt at the All Star game a couple of years ago.

I'm not familiar with that, what happened?

[Crapshoot]

I understand what you are saying and yes, Im sure it would be hard for someone to show restraint in that situation but just because you can justify it from a human emotion standpoint does not make it ok or legal.

What I find interesting is that Artest didn't seem to take too much offense to Wallace shoving him in his face/throat but when a fan throws a beer at him THEN he's ready to fight.

And I understand where you're coming from- Im just saying that this is the very definition of extenuating circumstances. The law is based on the premise that it will be enforced and that things like this would be discouraged actively- which as JIMGA has pointed out, was not at all in the NBA. Like I said, if you've sat and called me ethnic slurs for 48 minutes, do you really deserve the benefit of the doubt ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

... except have security surround the court/field/diamond and immediately arrest any fan coming onto the playing surface.

Or throwing anything at a player. Or onto the playing surface.

And what you said there is pretty much what I'm saying it's time for -- an effective & consisten barrier between fans & players, be that a human barrier,
a "non-human" barrier (fences,plexigass, something), or a combination of the two. Whatever it takes ... unless we're prepared to have tonight's events & beyond become common enough that it wouldn't even warrant a post here, much less a very active thread.

[stevew]

Might take a second to load.
hxxp://www.imgbucket.com/63/boomshakalaka.jpg
Jackson out of nowhere with the full wind up right.

[DeToxRox]

I'm not familiar with that, what happened?

Rose was allowed to go to the game and be honored as one of the games greatest. Gray of course took that time to ask him about the gambling story and all that.

[cartman]

Rose was allowed to go to the game and be honored as one of the games greatest. Gray of course took that time to ask him about the gambling story and all that.

And then, when Gray, at the World Series that year, would ask anyone a question, they would simply walk away from him on camera.

[stevew]

I'm not familiar with that, what happened?

Basically Gray just went after Pete in what was supposed to be just a quick interview.


hxxp://www.everwonder.com/david/jimgray/

Gray's sad sad interview...............


Gray asked Rose, banned in 1989 for gambling, why he hasn't admitted that he bet on baseball.

``I'm not going to admit to something that didn't happen,'' said Rose, baseball's career hits leader. ``I know you're getting tired of hearing me say that. It's too festive a night to worry about it.''

``I mean, show it to me, where is it?,'' Rose asked.

Responded Gray: ``But you agreed to a ban from baseball for life.''

``It also says I can apply for reinstatement in one year. I was looking forward to that day,'' Rose answered.

Rose applied to commissioner Bud Selig two years ago and has not gotten a formal response.

``It's only been two years. He's got a lot of things on his mind,'' Rose said.

Selig has indicated he does not intend to reinstate Rose.

Gray then suggested Rose should perhaps take a different approach by admitting guilt. Rose said, ``You say it hasn't worked, what do you mean?''

Rose seemed surprised by Gray's approach, likening it to a ``prosecutor's brief.''

``You know, I'm surprised you're bombarding me with this,'' he said. ``I'm here to do an interview with you on a great night, a great occasion. You're bringing up something that happened 10 years ago.''

[DeToxRox]

And then, when Gray, at the World Series that year, would ask anyone a question, they would simply walk away from him on camera.

yup. i give those guys who ignored him credit. shows a lot of guts.

[Gary Gorski]

Watching ESPN and enjoyed the studio crew there backpeddling after apparently getting a message from Joe Dumars asking why they are not laying any blame at the feet of the players for going into the stands. Interesting that NOW they're not referring to the "idiot fans" or talking about throwing the fans in jail but they are merely empathizing with the players in a situation like that.

[SirFozzie]

Full video from TV

http://mfile.akamai.com/12942/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2004/1120/3935750.200k.asx

[SirFozzie]

That's a six-seven minute clip.

Wow.

[GoldenEagle]

Artest was just chillin'

[Solecismic]

Out of the hundreds of events I've covered, high school basketball tops the list. The fans are right on the court, too easy to hear everything, too easy to get involved.

One time two girls screaming about boyfriends, I think, suddenly whipped out knives and went after each other right behind the scorer's table. One of them nearly landed on my foot. Couldn't believe it, but two teachers got right in there and separated them. I sure as hell wasn't going to.

Another time, some idiots in the crowd who were unhappy with an apparent loss started throwing golf balls from the top of the bleachers at the visiting team bench during a time out. Everyone could see the group doing it, but security didn't go up there.

I know crazy things can happen at high school football games, but I've never seen the crowd involved. I did cover a game that ended in a brawl, and had the extremely wound up coach of one team threaten me when I tried to interview him after the game.

Watching the tapes of this Pistons thing, it's hard to tell what's going on. The sheer number of people who think it's okay to dump a beer on a player tells me something's gone terribly wrong. Yet Artest deserves a good suspension for going into the crowd swinging the way he did. The Pistons CEO yammering about "taunting the fans" by lying on the scorer's table is an idiot.

[DeToxRox]

Spring High School Hockey. Nuff Said.

We brawled with Milford. Parent of the other team started it when he told a kid (as we're coming off of the ice) to beat up one of our D. So our kids dad got in this guys face, so they started fighting. So of course all the kids started going at it. Cops were called in. It was a mess.

[Tigercat]

You don't assault someone cause your "pissed," period. That isn't self defense. You can't tell me that Artest went through the stands out of fear for his own safety. If you are hit with a cup you don't think "Oh no, i am in danger!" You think "Who is the bastard who hit me with a cup?" The obvious reaction was that Artest was pissed and hyped up. Perhaps its understandable, but just because something is understandable does not make it defensible.

Yes, there should be better security for the athletes, especially so that one doesn't get really hurt instead of simply hit by a cup(although even a cup is unacceptable.) But sooner or later one should expect a human being to rise above base emotions to be civilized. Thats why we have laws. Thats why Artest punching the wrong guy out of simply anger is assault and wrong.

[Izulde]

Full video from TV

http://mfile.akamai.com/12942/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2004/1120/3935750.200k.asx


Did they take it down? It wouldnt load for me.

[Anthony]

i love Artest. he's from Astoria. he went to grammar school with a friend of mine. i went to college with Artest - i was a junior when Artest was on the St. John's University team.

he represented how we do in Astoria. hard core, motherfuckers.

"punks jump up to get beat down".

damn i feel like it's the 90's and i'm a thug drinking in alleyways, getting into trouble with my boyeez.

ASTORIA REPRESENT. fuck you, bitches.

[tucker342]

Just saw it on sportscenter.... WOW.

Alot of people are to blame for that one...

[sovereignstar]

My final thoughts for the night:

Biggest Loser of the Day: The chubby guy in the Pistons jersey that walked onto the court and up to Artest and subsequently got knocked down by J. O'Neal.

My byte for you:

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/027/fri-ktfo2.wav

[Fonzie]

Or what about pretending to be your mother, and logging on to a messageboard to make everyone think you were "missing", so that the messageboard would worry about you,and send out good thoughts, and tell you what a good person you were, and how you should make sure to be ok, and not mention that you virtually reek of first class loserdom, and that, hey, it's a fucking baseball game, and you must have just about nothing real in your life of any import if you act, or pretend, to act that way?

What's the matter with you? Did Foz stand you up at the prom or something?

Sheesh.

[SunDancer]

Im disgusted by the fans. Totally classless on their part. I cant believe they would do such a thing. The death of fan/player interaction.

I agree. I don't approve Artest and the other players. But this wasn't just a handful of fans, it was a hell lot of fans (nearly everyone who could throw something). They were still throwing shit at the players as they exit the stands in a differnet part.

When the NBA has a golden chance to win fans (with no NHL, it has the spotlight), it fouls big time.

[GoldenEagle]

My final thoughts for the night:

Biggest Loser of the Day: The chubby guy in the Pistons jersey that walked onto the court and up to Artest and subsequently got knocked down by J. O'Neal.

My byte for you:

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/027/fri-ktfo2.wav

He will not be a loser when he gets awarded with a $10 million lawsuit.

[sovereignstar]

He will not be a loser when he gets awarded with a $10 million lawsuit.
You're smoking crack if you think he will win shit. You aren't a lawyer, so don't pretend like you know will become of this.

[GoldenEagle]

I may not be a lawayer, but I am smart enough to see that the guy, at least camera (and that is all the evidence you need) did nothing to provke getting punched. He had a deer in the headlights look on his face. He will say he was forced on the court becuase he flet it was the safest place to go.

[KJDelaney]

My final thoughts for the night:

Biggest Loser of the Day: The chubby guy in the Pistons jersey that walked onto the court and up to Artest and subsequently got knocked down by J. O'Neal.

My byte for you:

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/027/fri-ktfo2.wav
That wav.......

I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

[GoldenEagle]

And by the way, this crack is good asshole.

[Suicane75]

i love Artest. he's from Astoria. he went to grammar school with a friend of mine. i went to college with Artest - i was a junior when Artest was on the St. John's University team.

he represented how we do in Astoria. hard core, motherfuckers.

"punks jump up to get beat down".

damn i feel like it's the 90's and i'm a thug drinking in alleyways, getting into trouble with my boyeez.

ASTORIA REPRESENT. fuck you, bitches.


Please, i heard you used to make tinkle on The Cyclone out on Coney Island. :D

[Suicane75]

You're smoking crack if you think he will win shit. You aren't a lawyer, so don't pretend like you know will become of this.

Man, who but a bug in your underoos this week?

[GoldenEagle]

He has been like this ever since he joined the board. He likes conflict. It is his way of getting attention.

[VPI97]

Artest needs professional help

[sovereignstar]

He has been like this ever since he joined the board. He likes conflict. It is his way of getting attention.
So when did I join this board?

[GoldenEagle]

No clue.

[sovereignstar]

Thank you.

[GoldenEagle]

Do you think you actually proved a point there?

[Masked]

Artest didn't go into the stands looking to defend himself - he was looking for revenge, which makes him just as guilty as the guy who threw the beer in the first place.

[Suicane75]

Both of you stop it right now. This board has never had conflict and we arn't gonna start now.

[DeToxRox]

ron artests mission is accomplished, he's torn FOFC

[Sun Tzu]

What a pathetic culture we live in.

[DeToxRox]

Seeing the replays all over ESPN again, I do have to say Jermaine O'Neal had incredible cheap shot on that guy. Security was about to apprehend him and O'Neal could see this. He came in on an angle that would make it hard to miss and he hauls off and clocks him. That was bad.

Worst scene though, seeing the kid crying while his brother who probably wasn't much older consoled him.

[Pacersfan46]

You probably will end up going to jail, along with the guy throwing the beer on you. I understand the want to get back at the guy, but it doesn't give you a free pass to do what you want.


Actually ... legally it does. Even the cop on sportscenter said it's considered self defense.

[DeToxRox]

Actually ... legally it does. Even the cop on sportscenter said it's considered self defense.

thats a cop who said it. find a good lawyer and what he says won't matter. now i don't know much about law, but in my law class in school, we talked about how you have the right to defend yourself within means. in the case of jermaine o'neal, he hit a guy already on the ground with security on him. that is not within means.

but with artest, they have evidence apparently that he hit the wrong guy. so throw self defense out the window, because what exactly was he self defending?

everyone involved in this are idiots. its that simple.

i won't single anyone out anymore. if they were involved, be it players, coaches, fans, they're morons and deserve WHATEVER they get.

[Bomber]

Ben Wallace and the Pistons' fans are completely to blame here. I'm agree with the ESPN guys any player in the league would react the way Artest did after being hit in the head. If the NBA really wanted justice Ben Wallace would be suspended and the Pistons' fans would be banned from the stadium for a week.

[RGunner]

Seeing the replays all over ESPN again, I do have to say Jermaine O'Neal had incredible cheap shot on that guy. Security was about to apprehend him and O'Neal could see this. He came in on an angle that would make it hard to miss and he hauls off and clocks him. That was bad.

Worst scene though, seeing the kid crying while his brother who probably wasn't much older consoled him.

The worst thing is though, the huge guy that attacked Fred Jones looked like it was the little kid's dad because when hes crying you see the big guy coming right next to them and talking to people around them. Yea everything is bad when you go into the stands, but I hate to say it but when Artest hit that guy on the court and then O'neal hit the guy, i laughed pretty hard. Honestly, what kind of common sense does that guy have to start shit with a 6'5 250 pound guy that could beat the shit out of you in a heartbeat? You have to be completely drunk off your ass or completely braindead to do something that stupid when you know he is pissed off and will hit you. Common sense is a wonderful thing to have, and this guy had none whatsoever.

[DeToxRox]

Ben Wallace and the Pistons' fans are completely to blame here. I'm agree with the ESPN guys any player in the league would react the way Artest did after being hit in the head. If the NBA really wanted justice Ben Wallace would be suspended and the Pistons' fans would be banned from the stadium for a week.

How many times have you seen players in the NBA do something like that, or throw a punch, and it stopped shortly after. I am guessing a lot.

What the fans did after was totally unforseeable.

And to say no blame is on Indiana is also a joke. Why do you think in a war we don't just send in one guy at a time to take on an entire army, because they'd get slaughtered. So why should one guy go into the crowd, swinging at everything he sees, not even getting the person he's after, and not bare any of the blame?

Granted the guy he hit was looking to be talking shit, but he didn't throw the bottle. So if that was you, you'd tell me that "eh, Ben Wallace is to blame. Don't worry about it Ron."

I highly doubt it.

[DeToxRox]

The worst thing is though, the huge guy that attacked Fred Jones looked like it was the little kid's dad because when hes crying you see the big guy coming right next to them and talking to people around them. Yea everything is bad when you go into the stands, but I hate to say it but when Artest hit that guy on the court and then O'neal hit the guy, i laughed pretty hard. Honestly, what kind of common sense does that guy have to start shit with a 6'5 250 pound guy that could beat the shit out of you in a heartbeat? You have to be completely drunk off your ass or completely braindead to do something that stupid when you know he is pissed off and will hit you. Common sense is a wonderful thing to have, and this guy had none whatsoever.

I agree the first time he got it I chuckled because he deserved it. But points proven. Now he's on the ground, security is around him and O'Neil just coldcocks him. That's uneeded and unessecary.

[Chief Rum]

Theiy're showing the game replay on ESPN late night. Watching it right now. This should be fun (I missed it when it actually happened).

CR

[RGunner]

I agree the first time he got it I chuckled because he deserved it. But points proven. Now he's on the ground, security is around him and O'Neil just coldcocks him. That's uneeded and unessecary.

Definitely unnecessary. But why go on the court, thats the stupidest thing you can do in the middle of a fight, especialy with Artest who you know will hit you if you talk shit to him. That guy got what he deserved from Artest for sure, and JO just got in a good shot for good measure, to keep him down. Stupid, stupid fan. Stupid, stupid players.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Nice job ESPN - way to lay ZERO blame on the players involved. The fans who participated in throwing stuff or worse going onto the floor deserve to be held responsible for their actions but so do the players - even if they do have all this built up aggression from their stressful lives and jobs :rolleyes:

Hey, you try living with the stress of paying $356,000 per week in child support to 12 different women for 10 kids... That, is stess that would build some aggression!!!

[rexallllsc]

The Pistons sure do have classy fans...They should've just let Artest run wild in there. Those fans deserved beatings. Especially the ones who ran onto the floor.

[rexallllsc]

You don't assault someone cause your "pissed," period. That isn't self defense. You can't tell me that Artest went through the stands out of fear for his own safety.

The thing is, these are guys out there who are pumped up, full of adrenaline, and competing like crazy. And you expect them to make sound, rational decisions?

Whatever. Those fans were a compelte disgrace. Give Artest 15-20 games, O'Neal 15 games, Jackson 15 games, Wallace 2 games, and be done with it.

Prosecute as many of the fans that can be identified as possible.

[rexallllsc]

I stand corrected, it was O'Neil who got his ass whipped by the short white fat guy. Artest has a law suit coming.

ESPN - "Blame this one on the fans"

O'Neal rocked the guy. Good on him. Artest rocked the guy. Good on him.

ESPN is right.

[rexallllsc]

Well, among other things, it raises serious questions about the people that are being credentialed. (The most notable one is the large guy in the gray sweatshirt that sucker punches Artest near the aisle)

edit to correct: The victim of the sucker punch was Jones, not Artest.

That was bad...Jones wasn't even doing anything. Detroit's org. has somne issues. From the CEO to the fans.

[mattwakeman]

Does this mean that you will all stop calling British footy fans hooligans now?? ;)

[mckerney]

Actually ... legally it does. Even the cop on sportscenter said it's considered self defense.

The police offer said self defense was allowed saying that someone throwing a chair is self defense, I don't remember hearing him say attacking someone who threw a cup of beer qualified, much less attacking a random fan in the stands.

[sterlingice]

Obviously this is complex to start with the issue of "how much does a player have the right to defend himself". In an attempt to lighten things up, anyone else surprised 'sheed was actually trying to break up the fight and not start one of his own?

If you think he has no right to defend himself, then what's Artest supposed to do when he's trying to cool down over there on the table while a fight is breaking out and, as can clearly be seen- there is no security in that part of the court. If there was enough security over there to deter these jackasses in the crowd, this never would have happened. It's one thing to not react to a fan saying something but clearly these guys were assaulted.

It gets even moreso because clearly every fan out there was viewing this as their chance at a giant paycheck from the NBA. I know some people don't care about that aspect, but, really, can't intent be taken into account here.

No matter what player did what tonight, hell, no matter what fan did what, I believe the largest burden belongs on the NBA (it's their incident, they take the beating tonight, but I don't believe any league is particularly innocent).

Move the fans away from the fucking court, stop turning arenas into bars, put adequate & ample security in every arena ... or expect to see this sort of thing become commonplace.
Personally, I hate nets at baseball games to protect fans from foul balls (not that I ever get to sit down low except the time we won the seat upgrade contest). Given the choice, I'll take the risk of getting clocked in the head with a foul ball for a better view of the game. Clearly others don't feel that way and, of course, have sued so my view is obstructed. Who's rights are being infringed on?

Back to the above, I've mentioned that security is culpable. These things also contribute to it (too much beer, fans too close, etc). But at what point do you draw the line? Does everyone have to be 5' away from the court? 10' away? At what point are you risking the livelihood of the business you are trying to "protect" with these rules? And, really, if these fans were acting as they should have- none of this would have happened so why should the association be held accountable for a role that, at its worst, was enabler and at best, was beseiged by an unpredictable event.

What I'm not enjoying is the ESPN commentators talking about how the fans should be thrown in jail and how the players have so much pent up rage and aggression hearing taunts from the fans....what a bunch of crap. Yeah, the guy who works on the assembly line 50 hours a week doing the same thing over and over...no way he has any pent up aggression. Only these NBA players who make millions playing a game are the ones frustrated because some jackass in the fifth row says his momma is fat.

Nice job ESPN - way to lay ZERO blame on the players involved. The fans who participated in throwing stuff or worse going onto the floor deserve to be held responsible for their actions but so do the players - even if they do have all this built up aggression from their stressful lives and jobs
Ok, that's certainly a lot of horse crap. Too much stress and whatnot is just a giant pile of crap cover. But, as I stated before, at what point do the players have a right to defend themselves? Over half of the people on the ESPN poll said "Artest should have let security handle it". Well, clearly they had done such a great job so far- after all, the field wasn't littered with fans and garbage and the crowd control had been well done. Wait, no it wasn't. But going back to the above, it's not like the Pistons can afford to have a security guard for each seat or even each 20 people- that's just not feasable so what's the answer.

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.
Has there been anything more on this or it is just Jim Grey blowing smoke up people's arses again? If there's any validity to this, credentialed guy needs to have them revoked and be looking for a new job. Guess it gives a whole new meaning to "being part of the story".

keep throwing beer, yes.

But by all accounts, this was the first beer thrown, and Artest just goes after the 1st fan that stands in front of him.

If it's only a beer, you let the local law enforcement make the first move.
A lot of people are breaking this down to "what if beer was thrown at you" and falling on the two sides of that. Near as I can tell, beer's never killed a person by being splashed on them. But when blunt objects (bottles, clothing, chairs) start flying, these can actually cause serious injury and there were few officers around to stop it. In my minds, that's where it crossed from the typical "you'd better sit your ass down on the bench" to "doesn't a player have a right to defend himself because security isn't doing a thing". Clearly others disagree.

A few other things:

* Nothing like Sportscenter trying to score some cheap points with the "but the clear losers were the young fans". Yes, why doesn't someone think of the children. Now lets all sing kumbaya with Dr Phil and Oprah, you asshats. Someone give me back Keith and Dan or even someone like Charlie Steiner who was more interested in reporting sports and not the load of crap SC has become.

* There was an incident on the court where two fans approached one of the Pacers (I forget who, Artest, I think) and he just clocks one of them. Any legal experts here who can do more than speculate on the legality of that. Considering the incident already (basically, a melee situation) and the fact that these guys were looking like they were going to start something, can this still be considered self defense?

* What's really going to make me sick about this whole matter is that someone is coming out of it with a paycheck. Now, I'm sure there were some victims here, but anyone who was provoking anything should be sent home without a dime, whether they were taunting or throwing stuff. You allow someone who was taunting in the middle of a brawl to get off because he was less culpable and you send an even worse message for the future: "Just dare your drunken buddy to start a fight and then it's jackpot time for you two".

* I saw the end of the replay of the game after I ran out of Futurama DVD to watch last night :( and I couldn't help but laugh at Bill Walton saying "And Artest has played a smart, controlled game so far" with about 2 minutes left to go. He's up there on my Mount Rushmore of "Announcers who make up for being dumb by being loud" with John Madden, Dick Vitale, and a yet to be determined fourth.

* I feel very dirty in that I agree about 90% with what JiMGA was saying here right down to the "I really dislike NBA players these days but I feel they were mostly in the clear for the incident in the stands (what they did on the court, well, the league will deal with that accordingly). Eww... ;)

Maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow (i.e. today, but it's not tomorrow until I've gotten some sleep) but right now, this is almost completely on the fans in my mind.

SI

[Pacersfan46]

I don't know where you guys keep getting the idea that Artest attacked the wrong man. I've watched Sportscenter 2 times, and they haven't mentioned it once.

Neither has any of the local news stations.

[CraigSca]

Soo...you think the NBA will move seats back in the arenas and risk alienating the fans who purchase the most expensive seats in the house?

[Blackadar]

For what it's worth, here's my take:

1. Wallace clearly overreacted to what was a borderline hard foul/cheap shot.
2. Artest was being a ham/jackass (some of both) on the scorers bench.
3. Artest had no justification for going into the stands. He's a professional basketball player. I understand how it happens but if a football player went into the stands ever time they had a beer poured on them, they're be a riot at every Ravens and Raiders game. As an athlete, you are taught and have to learn to ignore it. And what you can't ignore, you ask security to handle. That's your JOB.
4. Stephen Jackson has even less justification for his actions. He should probably be sued and rightfully so.
5. Artest is moderately justified in throwing the punch at the guy on the court. However, I don't think you can definitely say that he was being attacked or was in danger. Those particular fans shouldn't be on the court, but it was Artest who threw the first punch.
6. I think there is some justification for Artest also being sued as it created an atmosphere were bystanders could have been caught in the middle and hurt.
7. After watching the tape, I could see where a fan would flee to the general safety of the court and out of the stands.

As far as I'm concerned, Wallace needs to be suspended for 3-5 games.
Artest and Jackson should have criminal charges brought against them.
Artest and Jackson should be suspended for 10+ games.
Some Detroit fans should also be charged and arrested.
Those same Detriot fans should have their ticket privledges revoked (those look like season ticket seats).

[mckerney]

I don't know where you guys keep getting the idea that Artest attacked the wrong man. I've watched Sportscenter 2 times, and they haven't mentioned it once.

I said random fan because from the look of things, Artest really couldn't tell who threw the cup of beer. He didn't react until it hit him or just before it hit him, meaning he didn't see it coming at him, making it nearly impossible to tell who had thrown it.

[wbatl1]

I agree the first time he got it I chuckled because he deserved it. But points proven. Now he's on the ground, security is around him and O'Neil just coldcocks him. That's uneeded and unessecary.

To play devils advocate... the man was on the court, and when the emotions were high, it is probably next to impossible fo O'Neal to not defend his court and his team, ect. The guys on ESPN were saying that anyone on the court deserved what they got, because that is totally wrong. That is a case where a fan physically comes after a player. Unacceptable. Also, the security had been shown to be very weak in resolve and strength throughout the fight.(the blue shirted security, the police were all right).

[Pumpy Tudors]

I work for a ship supply company that has 90% foreign clients, and I regularly see strange requests from ships for various items. Back in May, the captain of a vessel sent us an e-mail requesting some movies. The first one on the list was "NBA Boxing." I don't know what we supplied to the man, but after seeing the video from last night, I'm tempted to send him an e-mail today saying, "Boy, have I got some NBA boxing for you!"

[cthomer5000]

Artest needs professional helpAgreed.

Does any of this happen if he isn't lying down on the fucking scores table like a kid with ADD?

WTF?

[EagleFan]

Wow, that was a complete mess. Ben Wallace was an ass for starting the whole thing but Artest and company should have never gone into the stands. Hell, Artest punched the first person that he encountered, and that person didn't even throw the cup (check out the trajectory on the cup when it hit him, there's no way it was thrown from where that person was). Granted, that fan looked like he was talking it up big time, but that is not justification for attacking him.

Wallace needs about a 5 game suspension.
Jackson should get about 10.
Artest, he needs to be sent packing until he gets some serious psychological help.
Detroit should get a bit of punishment Italian soccer style. Maybe 1 or 2 home games played behind closed doors should do it.

[EagleFan]

Agreed.

Does any of this happen if he isn't lying down on the fucking scores table like a kid with ADD?

WTF?

Agreed, but take it back a step further. Does any of this happen if Ben Wallace doesn't over-react like some 2 year old who just got his favorite toy taken from him?

[cthomer5000]

Agreed, but take it back a step further. Does any of this happen if Ben Wallace doesn't over-react like some 2 year old who just got his favorite toy taken from him?
He overreacted, but the foul was a 100% cheap shot, no doubt about it. Still, that's at least something taking place on the court.

Artest acting like an ass and giving the fans a target escalated the whole situation.

[Blackadar]

Agreed, but take it back a step further. Does any of this happen if Ben Wallace doesn't over-react like some 2 year old who just got his favorite toy taken from him?

I don't think it matters. Ben Wallace was an ass, but it didn't force Artest to go into the stands. As I said before, everyone is wrong here - the fans, the Pacers players, the Pistons players, security...everyone.

[cthomer5000]

Jermaine O'Neal should be rightfully sued for the sucker punch on the fat guy. That was nothing but a cheap shot.

[Easy Mac]

Good for Artest... do I think he should be suspended? Yes. DO I think he should be in jail? Yes. DO I think I would have done the same thing he did? IN a heart beat. If someone is going to be a pussy and throw a beer at me because he thinks I can't hit him, I'm going to beat the living shit out of him. If someone is laughing and I have reason to believe he threw it, he's dead. Period. It doesn't make what Artest did right, and he should be punished for it. But to think anyone wouldn't have done the same is idiotic. The fans think they have a right to do whatever they want with no fear of reprocussions... I have no problem with them being shown their place.

I say Artest for 30 games.
Jackson for 20 (he may have protected Artest, but even so)
O'Neal for 40 (his was the worst of them all, completely unprovoked).
It looked like a Pacers assistant was punching the fat guy while he was on the ground, so fire him.
Wallace for 15 (he is the reason it escalated at all, make it a point that you can't do what he did without consequences.)

[miami_fan]

A few observations:
1. It was a hard foul. Not cheap IMO but very unecessary given the score and thime remaining.

2. Wallace overreacted big time. With all the calls for players to control thier emotions and to act in a civilized manner, the FIRST person who should have done that was Wallace.

3. Artest was calm before the first beer was thrown from the stands. I don't care if he was lounging on the scorer's table, in the middle of the court, or wherever he was no longer an active participant in the problem at that point.

4. I am still trying to figure out why so many of people seemed to feel like it was okay for the fan a beer at Artest. Artest is a jerk. His history has been well chronicled butdoes not give a fan the right to throw objects on the court or at the player. If the beer does not get thrown from the stands, the WHOLE incident does not happpen. This is not cute anymore (if it ever was). It is not funny. The throwing of beer, batteries, etc is asinine

[Cards4ever]

Pretty disgusting display there. I think Detroit should not be allowed to sell alcohol for a few games along with the appropriate suspensions for the players.

I've said it several times, and will say it again, fans belong in the stands, players belong on the field(court) and unless your life is in danger, you don't go into the stands.

[govols]

I just have to way in on what is one of the worst moments in sports that I can remember.

First, Everyone involved in this is somewhat at fault. However, if one player and that is Artest shows some restraint none of this happens. What should happen... First the police should identify and charge as many fans as possible with insighting a riot or what ever charges they can find. However, the players involed also should be charged. This act goes off the court and should be handled just as if happened on the streets. The players should not be above the law here.

What should happen as far as the NBA? My thoughts would be that Artest and the second player (can't remember who) into the stands who started throwing punches should be suspended for 1 year at least. Artest might should be out for good since this is not his first problems in the NBA. Other player should be reviewed as well. Some looked like in the video that they were in the stands trying to break up the fights. Those players should not be suspended long if at all. I would need to look closer at the video to make a judgement on that one.

For those of you that are going to think that is long. Think about it this way, if you were on the job and your job involved working with the public and you had an incident where someone threw a beer at you. Try throwing a punch and see how quickly you are fired from your job.

ESPN is saying that any player would do the same thing and I tend to agree. I would probably do the same thing in the moment as well. If someone throws a beer in my face I am probably going to come up punching. However, does that make it right ? No... I would be just as wrong in that case as Artest is here. I would have to pay for my actions and I think the players involved here should too.

[TroyF]

I think a lot of people are letting Wallace off lightly on this one.

Artest gave him a hard foul. Maybe unnecessary, but there was a clear overreaction on his part. The cheap shot he gave Artest was uncalled for. Artest walked away and the players broke it up. If Wallace exits stage left right then and there, this thing probably comes to an end.

Instead he continues to go after Artest. He refuses to be restrained by his coaches or his teammates. Then he fires a towel or a headband at Artest while Artest was laying on the table. The cup of beer was thrown very shortly after Wallace made that move and I don't think that was a coincedence.

After that, adrenaline took over. Once Artest was hit with a face full of beer, there was no way this was going to end pretty. A fan has no right to do that in any circumstance. It's easy to sit here and say "that was just a beer, he should walk away", but if you were a player in that position, or his teammate, what would you be thinking?

Fans coming up within ten feet of you throwing beer. . . are you supposed to believe that's where it will end. And then after you've been in an altercation, to see fans walking toward you talking smack, what exactly should your reaction be? O'Neal gave the guy a cheap shot, but in his mind all he saw at the time was Artest and the fan in a fight and Artest going backwards. Again, it's easy to sit here and say "well, the guy was on the ground, security is close, it's over" It's another thing to have adrenaline rushing through your body, not have a perfect angle to what was going on and have to make a decision.

At the end of the day, Detroit and their fans are to blame for this. Wallace deserves a major suspension not only for starting it, but also fot helping fan the flames for as long as he did. Artest, O'Neal and Jackson deserve ten games or so for their parts. The Pistons organization deserves a MAJOR fine for the lack of security and the lack of the PA making timely announcements for it all to stop.

And while Artest is psychotic most of the time, his reaction was what it should have been IMO.

[TroyF]

I just have to way in on what is one of the worst moments in sports that I can remember.

First, Everyone involved in this is somewhat at fault. However, if one player and that is Artest shows some restraint none of this happens. What should happen... First the police should identify and charge as many fans as possible with insighting a riot or what ever charges they can find. However, the players involed also should be charged. This act goes off the court and should be handled just as if happened on the streets. The players should not be above the law here.

What should happen as far as the NBA? My thoughts would be that Artest and the second player (can't remember who) into the stands who started throwing punches should be suspended for 1 year at least. Artest might should be out for good since this is not his first problems in the NBA. Other player should be reviewed as well. Some looked like in the video that they were in the stands trying to break up the fights. Those players should not be suspended long if at all. I would need to look closer at the video to make a judgement on that one.

For those of you that are going to think that is long. Think about it this way, if you were on the job and your job involved working with the public and you had an incident where someone threw a beer at you. Try throwing a punch and see how quickly you are fired from your job.

ESPN is saying that any player would do the same thing and I tend to agree. I would probably do the same thing in the moment as well. If someone throws a beer in my face I am probably going to come up punching. However, does that make it right ? No... I would be just as wrong in that case as Artest is here. I would have to pay for my actions and I think the players involved here should too.


There is no way the Pacers players should be suspended for one year. No freakin way in hell. You admit you'd react the same way. 95% of us would. It's wrong, fine. Suspend em for ten to fifteen games. But don't get all holy and mighty talking about year long suspensions that aren't deserved.

And I agree with you. I think if one player shows restraint none of this ever happens. Only difference is I think the player was Wallace, not Artest. Again, not only for Wallace starting the incident, but for him staying on the court and throwing things himself.

[Easy Mac]

Does anyone else feel for Freddie Jones?

He shouldn't have gone into the stands, but he was standing there, and once Artest getting punched from behind, he tried to reach over a coach and pull the fan away. Then a 300 pound guy (at least) just starts pummeling JOnes from behind. I mean, the guy was at least twice his size.

[JonInMiddleGA]

With the benefit of a night's sleep & plenty of reflection, there's one thing that really stands out in my mind right now ... the NBA will apparently do anything to focus attention away from the Shaq v Kobe matchup next month.
:D

[miami_fan]

With the benefit of a night's sleep & plenty of reflection, there's one thing that really stands out in my mind right now ... the NBA will apparently do anything to focus attention away from the Shaq v Kobe matchup next month.
:D

Oh yeah they are playing a little game that day too aren't they :rolleyes:

[govols]

There is no way the Pacers players should be suspended for one year. No freakin way in hell. You admit you'd react the same way. 95% of us would. It's wrong, fine. Suspend em for ten to fifteen games. But don't get all holy and mighty talking about year long suspensions that aren't deserved.

And I agree with you. I think if one player shows restraint none of this ever happens. Only difference is I think the player was Wallace, not Artest. Again, not only for Wallace starting the incident, but for him staying on the court and throwing things himself.


As far the the year long suspension, I would hit them hard on this one just to let players know that they better think before they do something like this. Fifteen games as this point in the season is just a vacation.

My thought on Wallace are this. Yes, he started a fight on the court. However, things that happen on the court should be handled differently. For the incident on the court Wallace should get a suspension. However, as far as I am concerned these are two separate incidents. The fight on the court was over. The fight that was started in the stands was all on Artest.

[gstelmack]

If you think he has no right to defend himself, then what's Artest supposed to do when he's trying to cool down over there on the table while a fight is breaking out and, as can clearly be seen- there is no security in that part of the court. If there was enough security over there to deter these jackasses in the crowd, this never would have happened. It's one thing to not react to a fan saying something but clearly these guys were assaulted.
I'm going to agree heavily with the points about security being made. The courts will focus heavily on fan/player culpability, but in my mind the main lawsuit in this should be against the arena. Players/fans need suspensions and possible jail time, but financial responsibility belongs with the arena and whoever owns it. The replay I saw last night showed very little security until the stands brawl got into full swing. Security should have been courtside as soon as Wallace refused to let the oncourt incident die down. Artest should have been trying to leap through a wall of security to try and get into the stands. This was a complete breakdown of the security staff, plain and simple. It's their job to deal with and break these kinds of things up. Heck, even New York was smart enough to have riot police on hand and close to the field during the ALCS, and that's WITH a wall between the fans and the players.

Why were there still fans around the entrance to the visitor's locker room as the Pacers tried to exit the court?

The big question in my mind: incompetent security or insufficient security? Did they have enough people on hand to deal with a large fight, or did they just botch it and not react fast enough?

[Balldog]

The worst thing is though, the huge guy that attacked Fred Jones looked like it was the little kid's dad because when hes crying you see the big guy coming right next to them and talking to people around them.

I thought this too but it looks like the guy who attacked Fred Jones was wearing a tie, the guy with the kids was wearing a similar color shirt with some sort of logo on it. I might be wrong though.

[DeToxRox]

one more thing i pondered..

for anyone who says they'd go into the crowd..

you're telling me that if someone threw something at you trying to provoke you, and you knew there were (lets scale the number down to the amount of people in that are) 300 of them, and just you and 10 other guys. you're honestly telling me you're going to run into the crowd and fight?

yes, the people who provoke you are pussys and assholes, and yes you ought to be pissed. but if you get so pissed that you throw all logical thinking out the window, you have some severe pyschological issues. you know what, it happened. it happened in the NFL and i didn't see any Jag players run into the stand, they all got off of the field, and these are much bigger guys, with lots of equipment, and they left the field.

it was just ugly. everyone is at fault involved and everyone deserves what they get.

[Balldog]

I must admit I was impressed by Rasheed Wallace, he was trying to stop everything when it was on the court and in the crowd. Where was everyone else?

[DeToxRox]

lol. the morning after speculation is unreal. i doubt this is true at all but i felt i might as well throw it out there because you never know, it could make national headlines.

i heard that people are saying now that the guy on the floor was from the make a wish foundation or some such group, and that he was mentally challenged.

again, i honestly doubt the validity of this story, but after what actually did happen last night, anythings possible.

[DeToxRox]

I must admit I was impressed by Rasheed Wallace, he was trying to stop everything when it was on the court and in the crowd. Where was everyone else?

I bet he was remembering that game in Portland very vividly.