Dark Tower Series discussion

[Bonegavel]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Dark Tower series (by Stephen King) with one caveat - I don't want to spoil anything (currently just started Wolves of the Calla) for myself but I do want to discus things up to the point at where I'm at in the series and do it while they are fresh in my mind.

I know some of you are into this so I'm hoping to have a fun discussion of the astronomical amount of information King has put into this series and either clear up some things I had gotten wrong or add to the mystery that is The Dark Tower.

If you haven't read the series or are not up to the point I am in the books, I suspect there will spoilers here you won't want to read. So BE WARNED!.

[Bonegavel]

My first order of business is just a few nagging suspicions.

If I understand it correctly, one of the main points of the book is that there are infinite worlds or existences (planes, whatever). Many of these may be so close as to be identical minus a few discrepancies. E.g., the Kansas they were in had all the familiar trappings but a Car had a funny name and there was a food franchise Boing Boing Burger that the characters used to guess that this wasn't their 'where.'

When Roland relates his tale of Susan Delgado, he describes what could be our future world after an apocolypse. Mutie this and mutie that. Plus the Citgo place with Sunoco trucks and Mobil which makes me think that Roland is actually from our future 'where' but there was the one company name thrown in called, i believe, unoco or something like that. Was is just a Sunoco that was too faded or was this yet another piece of evidence that this isn't our world.

Also, the fokker (sp?) german plane that was there. That seems right out of our 'where.'

He throws in Spanish for the "lowly" folk of Mejis and it is, at least I believe, bang-on spanish.

Either this is our future world or simply King's desire to make us think that it might be when it is really just another level of the Tower. I am guessing that King is very careful in his choice of verisimilatudes to attract our attentions. Probably to throw us off to his actual intentions, of which I have no clue. It is hard enough just keeping up with the vast amount of information we are given.

I constantly try to associate his descriptions and names of locations to our current world to see if there are any matches, but his sense of direction and the lack of maps (such as in the Lord of the Rings) throws me off. For instance, when Roland is traveling along the coast he is traveling North after having gone West. But he says that the water is to his right. I chalked it up to King either not really caring (which i doubt) or he is trying to show that things aren't the same in this world. Did i misunderstand this? or does this come into play later?

[SackAttack]

Consider the coast of Brazil. You can head west from the point furthest east, and then turn north along the line and eventually wind up with the ocean to your right. It isn't impossible, although it is tough to wrap one's mind around at first. It just requires an indented coastline.

[Bonegavel]

Consider the coast of Brazil. You can head west from the point furthest east, and then turn north along the line and eventually wind up with the ocean to your right. It isn't impossible, although it is tough to wrap one's mind around at first. It just requires an indented coastline.I tried mentally mapping how this could be (not sure if you read the books or not) but he basically travels west and hits the ocean. He then turns North and mentions how the sea is to his right. I just don't see how that can work out. I think he also traversed over some hills or mountains on his way there.

[Desnudo]

It could simply be a typo.

[primelord]

It could simply be a typo.
It's not.

[primelord]

I tried mentally mapping how this could be (not sure if you read the books or not) but he basically travels west and hits the ocean. He then turns North and mentions how the sea is to his right. I just don't see how that can work out. I think he also traversed over some hills or mountains on his way there.
I think many of the things you brought up are going to be difficult to discuss without revealing things that happen later in the series. I started to respond to your post earlier in the day and found I really couldn't answer much without forshadowing a bit and I don't want to spoil anything for you.

[Desnudo]

It's not.

When you say it's not, is there a reason behind it?

[Bonegavel]

It's not.
Cool. I really thought I was just mentally out of it when I read it.

[Bonegavel]

I think many of the things you brought up are going to be difficult to discuss without revealing things that happen later in the series. I started to respond to your post earlier in the day and found I really couldn't answer much without forshadowing a bit and I don't want to spoil anything for you.
Thanks Primelord. This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping for. Just enough for me to know that I'm not totally misreading it and that I was on-the-ball enough to catch it.

[JeeberD]

There's a fantastic book out there called The Road to the Dark Tower (http://www.bevvincent.com/DarkTower.html) which ties everything together and makes all the connections that the casual readers miss. You don't want to read it until you're finished with the series, but it's a great read and is a lot of fun...

[Bonegavel]

Thanks JeeberD. (still looking for you to come back to CoH!)

In the first chapter of Wolves of the Calla the fact of the changes of directions and time being like "a face reflected on water" is discussed.

I guess you know something is good when you want to discuss it with others.

Like i've said, I avoided king in the past without ever having read a thing of his. Now, i understand the attraction. He has this ability to ramble on and drag things out and somehow make me not care. E.g., the story of susan delgado and their trip to Mejis could have been reduced to only a few chapters and we still would have picked up the meat of it. But, the way it was done you know those characters as well if not better than Eddie, Susannah, and Jake. I couldn't read Wizard and Glass fast enough.

On the odd side, I'm not sure where he was going with the whole Wizard of Oz thing. The red shoes, the man behind the curtain, the green palace. Really stuck out like a sore thumb to me.

I'm also still very confused about Walter and Farson the Good Man (AKA, Marten Broadcloak, Maerlyn, Flagg, etc.). When they are brought up it seems to be done at the edges of understanding. Kind of like being able to see something only while not looking directly at it.

I loved the teasing I got during the Susan Love story about Farson. Never meeting him in the story, only hearing about him or what he will do. Could he actually be a "good" man? Is it possible that Roland and his people are the oppresors and Farson is leading a just cause? We are of course shown only Roland's PoV. Looking forward to learning about Farson.

[gi]

Most ends (loose) will be tied up when you finish all 7 books. It might not be nice and neat, but they will be tied up.

[Noble_Platypus]

Bonegavel, you must read Hearts in Atlantis and Black House. They are essential reading because they give you information about the tower and the Crimson King and Breakers, especially Black House.

[Noble_Platypus]

YOu should read them before Wolves, so if you have just started consideer reading these 2 books first.

[primelord]

And of couse if you are going to read Black House you should read Insomnia since Black House is the sequel to Insomnia. You have a lot of reading to do. :)

[gi]

And of couse if you are going to read Black House you should read Insomnia since Black House is the sequel to Insomnia. You have a lot of reading to do. :)
Insomnia and Black House probably tie in most to the Dark Tower Series. Must reads.

Now get started! :)

[Noble_Platypus]

I always thought it was more a sequel to the Talisman, but I agree: must reads

[JeeberD]

Yup, Black House is the sequal to The Talisman, which is a damn fine book in its own right...

If you want to get right down to it, these are all the SK novels that the man himself says are related to the DT series (aside from the DT novels themself)...

'Salems Lot
The Stand
The Talisman
It
The Eyes of the Dragon (one of my favorites)
Insomnia
Rose Madder
Desperation
Bag of Bones
Black House
From a Buick 8
The Regulators
Skeleton Crew (The Mist)
Hearts in Atlantis
Everything's Eventual (Everything's Eventual and Little Sisters of Eluria)

[primelord]

I always thought it was more a sequel to the Talisman, but I agree: must reads
Err.. that is what I meant. :)

[primelord]

The Eyes of the Dragon (one of my favorites)
Just wanted to echo that I thought this was an excellent book as well.

[Bonegavel]

I am at the part in WotC where Pere Callahan is relating his story.

I like how he has thrown in Black 13 all ready in the story. I am very curious to see how the Wizard's Rainbows are explained (are they just an advanced device?). So far it seems that most everything has a technological explanation or the result of mutation.

Is Don Callahan from another of King's books? Almost seems like he is quoting himself during the story.

[gi]

I am at the part in WotC where Pere Callahan is relating his story.

I like how he has thrown in Black 13 all ready in the story. I am very curious to see how the Wizard's Rainbows are explained (are they just an advanced device?). So far it seems that most everything has a technological explanation or the result of mutation.

Is Don Callahan from another of King's books? Almost seems like he is quoting himself during the story.
Yes, I believe Salam's Lot. Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

[Bonegavel]

Ok. The Wolves of the Calla had me so engrossed that last night I had to drop everything and finish that book. I basically got home from work, ate, and read. I took a little break to watch some of Emmitt Otter's Jugband Christmas with my daughter, but that was it. And finish it I did, can I hear a slow commalla big-big!

I'm not sure if being a n00b to SK is a blessing or a curse when talking about the Dark Tower because it wasn't until the end of this WotC that it seems like the worlds visited/discussed in the series are all from King's books.

The fact that Pere Callahan is from 'Salem's Lot and he now seems to know he is the product of a piece of fiction through me for a bit of a loop. That and the fact that nobody (not eddie or Jake) had heard of Stephen King in there when/wheres. Both Jake and eddie were around when King was writing so he should have been known to them.

I'm still confused as to where all this is going and I guess that is good. They are constantly seeing things in mid/end-world that are similar to either real things from our own when (he talks about Dr. Doom from Marvel comics regarding the wolves, or the light sabers, and the Harry Potter grenades) or things in his books (the Calla Bryn Sturgis meeting hall looks like the church on 'Salem's Lots book cover).

I'm just hoping this doesn't end as goofy as it appears it might. Don't get me wrong, the story is great, but he better get this ending right.

[Cringer]

Bonegavel, I had my doubts about where he was going with it too. I think every one did. But you will end up being ok with it I think. He actually works it out very well.

And let me say something about "our world" things being in "Roland's world." I believe someone already suggested reading a couple of other King books, Blackhouse and Hearts of Atlantis. These books, along with the book that Blackhouse is a sequal too (can not remember the name right now, sorry) always gave me the strong impression that these "doors" between worlds have always been around, and there have been people who have known and used them. So through out time some people, for the purpose of money and power, would take things from one world to another, or vice versa, in order to make personal gain in some way.

That is how I understand it anyways.

[Honolulu_Blue]

There are number of old threads on this series, but I decided I'd post in this one as it was most recent.

*SPOILERS BELOW*
















































Wow. I started reading this series when I was 12 years old or so. Just around Jake's age. I'm now 31 and just finished. It's hard to imagine that these characters that have been with me for over half my life have finally told their entire story. It was brilliant.

It took me a while to finish the series. After "The Wastelands" I swore I would not read another in the series until they were all published and in my hands. I broke that promise pretty quickly with "The Wizard and the Glass." After that King made it pretty easy to keep such a promise, but I still held off until I had all seven books. I then decided to start back at the begining and read them all over again, especially considering the revised edition of "The Gunslinger." It was well worth it and allowed me to rediscover the world and the characters and really immerse myself back into the whole journey.

It was a great series. I loved the ending. It is sort of one of those endings that does a couple of things. First, once you start thinking about it, it makes sense and you can see the signs pointing to the ending throughout. The whole "ka is a wheel" motif and Roland's relentless, unimaginative nature. Second, it allows the reader to make up his own mind in a way. If you wont to think that Roland will eventually reach "salvation" (due to the fact that he has the horn), puting a positive spin on the whole thing, you can. It's sort of like a very extended "Groundhog Day" where Roland keeps repeating his journey from a certain spot until he sort of "gets it right" in a way. If you want to take the view that Roland is "damned" in a way to continue this cycle forever, and ever, you can take that view too.

I wasn't thrilled with Suzannah's decision to bail out at the end, but it seemed to fit well enough and I enjoyed her "ending." Eddie's and Jake's deaths were tragic, but the death scenes were great. As was Oy's. Callahan's was beautiful as well. I guess after reading Martin's "A Song of Fire and Ice" series for so long it's kind of nice to see the main characters get a decent death scene every once in a while.

Roland still goes down as one of my favorite characters I have ever had a pleasure of reading about. Just loved him.

I have a lot more to say on all this, but time is short at the moment. Highlights of the series, for me, include (I guess the order is chronological):

1. The drawing of Eddie. Just a classic scene from begining to end. I think that's where the series really started to take off.

2. The Jack Mort chapter. Roland being a complete bad ass in our world. Great stuff.

3. City of Lud. A very cool post-apocalyptic setting with creepy as hell bad dudes and high action.

4. The whole Roland in Mejis flashback. I loved Cuthbert and Alain. The story was tragic, but great at the same time. Cool villians as well.

5. Andolini's ambush in the general store in Maine. Another classic scene.

6. The brith of Modred. King at his horrorific best.

7. Jake and Callahan's raid on the Dixie Pig. I just loved the setting, so errie and cool. King nailed it.

8. The whole Breakers concept and the assault on the compound.

9. I love the Irene Tassbaums and John Callums and all the minor characters who in just a few pages King is able to breathe light into. Say what you will about his writing style, but King has always been a master of creating interesting, believable, tangible characters in very few words. As a reader I am very character driven. If there is a character I like/find interesting/care about, whatever, I will keep reading and reading and reading. If there isn't, it's hard for me to get into a book. With the few King books I have read (this series and The Stand), I have loved a multitude of characters.

10. The end. I thought it was great. The confrontation with the Crimson King, to Suzannah's alternate reality, to Roland's journey up into the Dark Tower and his opening of the last door. It really felt right.

I reckon there are a hundred little scenes I am overlooking. But that's what I've got in the tank at the moment. Oh yeah, I was initially mortified with the idea that King was putting himself in these books. I started seeing that up ahead and kept saying "No! No! It will fuck it up." Well, I was dead wrong. I think he handled it amazingly well. Those scenes were great.

Well, sai King, I say thankya. I say thankya big big.

[gi]

I find I agree on all of your points. Truly a classic piece of work. I also enjoyed reading King's other books that tied into the Dark Tower story. I felt it really added to the depth of the story.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I find I agree on all of your points. Truly a classic piece of work. I also enjoyed reading King's other books that tied into the Dark Tower story. I felt it really added to the depth of the story.
I am planning to check them out. Especially "Insomnia" and "Heart of Atlantis." Now that this series is done it's time for George RR Martin to get off his ass and start writing. Mayhap I will have to clip him with a mini-van to get him going. I am not there yet, but close...

[SackAttack]

How did you guys square the stilted formality of Odetta Holmes with the more casual speech of Susannah Dean? I realize as Susannah she's not really the same person she was...but the change in the way she speaks kind of jolted me a bit.

Also, I know I've said it before, but those of you who enjoyed reading the books might consider giving them a listen through Audible. Frank Muller's readings of books two through four is just phenomenal.

[Honolulu_Blue]

How did you guys square the stilted formality of Odetta Holmes with the more casual speech of Susannah Dean? I realize as Susannah she's not really the same person she was...but the change in the way she speaks kind of jolted me a bit.

Also, I know I've said it before, but those of you who enjoyed reading the books might consider giving them a listen through Audible. Frank Muller's readings of books two through four is just phenomenal.
I will have to check the audio books out. I bought a used book on tape of "The Wastelands" read by King himself. It wasn't bad, but not terribly great either. King really doesn't have the best voice.

I think, as I understood it, that Susannah Dean was a melding of the stilted formality of Odetta Holmes and the foul-mouthed Detta Walker. I am not sure if the logical result would be the more casual speech of Susannah, but that's how I went with it.

[SackAttack]

I will have to check the audio books out. I bought a used book on tape of "The Wastelands" read by King himself. It wasn't bad, but not terribly great either. King really doesn't have the best voice.

Yeah, Muller re-read the ones that King had done. Drawing of the Three, Waste Lands, and Wizard & Glass. He would have read Wolves of the Calla, Song of Susannah, and The Dark Tower if not for his motorcycle accident.

And that's nothing against George Guidall, who's excellent in his own right, but Muller is just superlative.

If you snag the audiobooks, snag 'em from audible.com. As Vince'll attest, you can get all seven books for what one of them normally costs if you do it through their premium service.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yeah, Muller re-read the ones that King had done. Drawing of the Three, Waste Lands, and Wizard & Glass. He would have read Wolves of the Calla, Song of Susannah, and The Dark Tower if not for his motorcycle accident.

And that's nothing against George Guidall, who's excellent in his own right, but Muller is just superlative.

If you snag the audiobooks, snag 'em from audible.com. As Vince'll attest, you can get all seven books for what one of them normally costs if you do it through their premium service.
Oh that's right. I read about Muller's motorcycle accident. Sounded horrorific.

They're on audbile? Fantastic! I have a monthly deal with aubidle where I get to download two books a month for some price. $20 maybe. I will definitely pick those up just to have 'em.

[JeeberD]

I think, as I understood it, that Susannah Dean was a melding of the stilted formality of Odetta Holmes and the foul-mouthed Detta Walker. I am not sure if the logical result would be the more casual speech of Susannah, but that's how I went with it.

Bingo.

[primelord]

I am still not certain how I feel on the whole ending. I thought the Crimson King was a disappointment. I also thought Modred was a massive dissapointment. All that buildup and he was fairly easily vanquished. I know he was sick and all, but it just seems to me that King had much bigger things planned for him and just ran out of space.

As for the ending I actually would have prefered if Roland didn't have the Horn. Why does he have it this time, but none of the otehr times he has gone through? It didn't make any sense to me. I think it sucks that Roland is damned to repeat this cycle, but at the same time I would have liked it better if King had set that in stone.

This is still without question my favorite series of books, but the last 3 books just felt rushed to me. King spent so much time developing the characters and their journey in the first 4 books and then just seemed to hit the fast forward button for the last 3. So many things just seemed glossed over and again I got the sense that he had so much more he wanted to say, but decided he had to finish and just rushed through. I would have rather he added another couple of books on the end to tie everything up.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am still not certain how I feel on the whole ending. I thought the Crimson King was a disappointment. I also thought Modred was a massive dissapointment. All that buildup and he was fairly easily vanquished. I know he was sick and all, but it just seems to me that King had much bigger things planned for him and just ran out of space.

As for the ending I actually would have prefered if Roland didn't have the Horn. Why does he have it this time, but none of the otehr times he has gone through? It didn't make any sense to me. I think it sucks that Roland is damned to repeat this cycle, but at the same time I would have liked it better if King had set that in stone.

This is still without question my favorite series of books, but the last 3 books just felt rushed to me. King spent so much time developing the characters and their journey in the first 4 books and then just seemed to hit the fast forward button for the last 3. So many things just seemed glossed over and again I got the sense that he had so much more he wanted to say, but decided he had to finish and just rushed through. I would have rather he added another couple of books on the end to tie everything up.
Primer, you raise excellent points. While I liked the confortation with the Crimson King, I can easily see where it was a let down. He wasn't all that threatening at any time. He was just an angry old dude with a big, white bushy beard and a red cloak. There was no true menace at any point. I sort of rationalized it as him just having completely lost it by that time. Like the rest of the world he had "moved on" in a way and by that time was a shadow of his former self. Still, King can do evil and forboding (earlier Modred chapters) and didn't there. I still liked the Crimson King's ultimate demise and the idea of those two red eyes, full of rage, just sort of stuck there...

I agree with Modred too. It was a lot of build up, with little pay-off. His initial scene was great as we his scene with Flagg/Marten, but after seeing that to die by just rushing in there and getting shot... Eh, could have been more. He got a lot of pages without, in the end, doing all that much, save killing Flagg and Oy. Poor, little Oy...

As for the ending. I like that he got the horn. As I mentioned earlier, I sort of scene Roland's continous journey as a long, extended "Ground Hog Day" and that he's doomed to repeat it over and over until he sort of "get's it right." Why was he given the horn this time and not others? Who is to say really. Maybe it was because this time around, unlike others, he actually loved Eddie, Jake, Susannah. Maybe it was some other act he did. Or that he grew in some new way. The horn was sort of seen as ka's reward to this tragic figure. Without knowing the path he tread during his prior to journeys to the Tower, it's hard to say why he deserved such a reward this time around. I think the fact that he got it gives the reader a sense that the journey we just read this time around was important. It was key in the salvation, if it pleases ya, of Roland. We saw events or changes in Roland that never ocurred in any prior attempt. I think that's a pretty decent pay off other than saying you just watched events that have happened X amount of times prior and will happen X amount of times in the future.

I also think the ending is sort of nebulous enough that it allows you to go down the "horn or no horn, Roland is doomed to repeat this quest for eternity." Such a reading certainly fits many of the themes and fits Roland's relentless, pondering, unimaginative nature. To quote the Terminator: It's what he does. It's all he does.

I also agree that the last three felt rushed in a way. Like he wanted them done, which given the pressure of the series I am sure there is some truth to that. The first four books did have a much slower, we're on a long journey type feel to them, while the last three were very swift. Book 5 basically all takes place in Calla Bryn Sturgis. Book 6 basically takes place in the course of one day. Book 7 spans much more time and distance, but does so at quite a clip.

[JeeberD]

*shudder*

Was just at the part of H_B's post about Mordred when I noticed a spider walking down my wall...

[Honolulu_Blue]

*shudder*

Was just at the part of H_B's post about Mordred when I noticed a spider walking down my wall...
I hear ya. The idea of a massive, black spider with a baby's face/head on its back is terrifying. King really nailed it there. I guess that's one of his fortes.

[Bonegavel]

Funny to see this thread resurface without me posting my final thoughts on the series.

I'm torn on the ending. Could it have ended any other way? I don't think so. I don't think there is any ending that could have done justice to the story.

King's final essay nailed it when he basically stopped before Roland reach the top and said regardless of what he finds there will you be satisfied? Wasn't the Journey enough?

That helped me a bit with the ending and I had to admit that the Journey was enough. It went in directions I couldn't have imagined and told stories that will stick with me for a long time.

Could it have ended any other way? I don't think it could have. Roland was a doomed character and no matter how we hoped he would be redeemed... he remained doomed and yet was given a glimmer of hope in the horn. Will the horn matter? I don't believe so. I believe Roland is destined to repeat the cycle for eternity.

His soul somehow remembers the loop and is why his only struggle is to reach the top of the tower again when he can repeat the cycle and return to Susan Delgado. I think that is the one part of the cycle where he was most human. Most happy. Nothing mattered but being with Susan. It was the only time in the whole series where he acted like that.

If he wants to see Susan again he has to reach the tower. He can't reach the tower unless he uses everyone he can regardless of their fate. If he dies on his Journey I think the cycle will break but he is such that he cannot give up. He must see Susan.

[JeeberD]

But he doesn't see Susan again. He starts over at the start of the series, in the desert just beyond Tull...

[Honolulu_Blue]

But he doesn't see Susan again. He starts over at the start of the series, in the desert just beyond Tull...
Exactly. Though I think Bonegavel is onto something. In a way much of Roland's journey that we get to be a part of is the re-humanization of Roland. His attempt to reach the state of humanity, full of compassion, love, what have you, that he had found in Susan and the sacrificed. Much was made of how his relationship with Jake, Eddie, and Susannah sort of re-kindled his soul and allowed him to love, laugh, and care for people once more. I sort of think it was that change in Roland that allowed ka to grant him the horn. Perhaps the next time through he wont sacrifice Jake under the mountain and that will be the ticket to the end of his quest. It's hard to say really. But it almost seems like his sacrifice of Susan is essential to the remainder of his quest and his striving to not only reach the Tower, but to regain his humanity.

Though, it is interesting, that while Roland appears to always start his quest at the exact same spot, in the desert just beyond Tull, he starts this quest with his horn. This shows that some how, some way, ka, or whatever, was able to reach further back in time (Jericho Hill) and influence Roland enough to remember to grab the horn. While I think it would be quite a reach to say that it would reach far enough back and have enough force to allow Roland to correct his mistake/sacrifice of Susan, I suppose it is possible.

[Schmidty]

I think I've mentioned here before that I tried to read "The Gunslinger" many years (like 1990), and hated it. Since then, many people (some of you included) have told me that I should give the book another chance. I was stubborn and refused. Until last weekend.

My wife and I were going to be traveling in the car to Long Beach, WA which is like a 5 hour drive from here, and I forgot to buy a book. We stopped at a Wal-Mart (I didn't even know they sold books there) in Marysville, WA for a magazine and some snacks. After looking around and realizing that magazines are horribly over-priced, I looked in the book section. I saw the revised version of "The Gunslinger" was selling for like $4 and said what the hell. I'm glad I did. What a great book. It totally sucked me in to the point that I didn't want to get out of the car when we arrived and ended up finishing the book at 3 A.M. that night.

I can hardly wait until the next book arrives in the mail tommorrow.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I think I've mentioned here before that I tried to read "The Gunslinger" many years (like 1990), and hated it. Since then, many people (some of you included) have told me that I should give the book another chance. I was stubborn and refused. Until last weekend.

My wife and I were going to be traveling in the car to Long Beach, WA which is like a 5 hour drive from here, and I forgot to buy a book. We stopped at a Wal-Mart (I didn't even know they sold books there) in Marysville, WA for a magazine and some snacks. After looking around and realizing that magazines are horribly over-priced, I looked in the book section. I saw the revised version of "The Gunslinger" was selling for like $4 and said what the hell. I'm glad I did. What a great book. It totally sucked me in to the point that I didn't want to get out of the car when we arrived and ended up finishing the book at 3 A.M. that night.

I can hardly wait until the next book arrives in the mail tommorrow.
First off, I sure as hell hope you haven't read anything in any of the above posts! Second, they only get better. If you were sucked into "The Gunslinger" then you'll love the rest. When I first read "The Gunslinger" I put it down too. As much as I tried to like it, I couldn't (granted I was like 12). I picked it up again, a few months later, and read through it and loved it. But once I read "The Drawing of The Three" I was hooked for good.

[Schmidty]

First off, I sure as hell hope you haven't read anything in any of the above posts! Second, they only get better. If you were sucked into "The Gunslinger" then you'll love the rest. When I first read "The Gunslinger" I put it down too. As much as I tried to like it, I couldn't (granted I was like 12). I picked it up again, a few months later, and read through it and loved it. But once I read "The Drawing of The Three" I was hooked for good.

Don't worry, I didn't read anything else in the thread since I figured there'd be spoilers. I just saw the title and had to let everyone know that they were right, and that I loved the book this time.

[primelord]

I am with HB. Once you get to Drawing of the Three it is over. Drawing of the Three is my second favorite of the series behind Wizards and Glass.

[Schmidty]

I am with HB. Once you get to Drawing of the Three it is over. Drawing of the Three is my second favorite of the series behind Wizards and Glass.

So does this mean I'm excited about the series for nothing?

[Honolulu_Blue]

So does this mean I'm excited about the series for nothing?
No! I think what primer is saying by "it's over" is that once you start reading "Drawing of the Three," any ability to stop reading the series "is over." You're a junkie. You're addicted. The series has sunk its claws into you and you wont stop reading until you've finished all seven books.

[Bonegavel]

But he doesn't see Susan again. He starts over at the start of the series, in the desert just beyond Tull...Right, but, I don't know about you, but it is my belief that when he tells that story he IS going back to that time. IIRC, time acted weird when he was telling that story and I think each telling of it transports him back to that moment in time.

Remember how odd Roland's behaviour was during the Mejis story? It really throws you for a loop because we know of Roland before this trip and he is the same at each point in the story ... except for Mejis.

Each time the cycle continues and he goes back to this point its like he is making up for lost time.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Good news!

Stephen King is teaming up with Marvel Comics to do a series of comic books based on the early life of Roland Deschain. This will probably include the fall of Gilead, the battle between the gunslingers and John Farson's army and, ultimately, the battle of Jericho Hill.

The art work looks fantastic. This could be some good stuff!

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=21683

[JeeberD]

Sounds great!

[Lathum]

Javier Bardem sp? was made an offer to play Roland in the movies.

[Lathum]

The Dark Tower: Gunslinger - Movie News from Stephen King's 7 Book Epic (http://www.darktowermovies.com/)

[SackAttack]

No! I think what primer is saying by "it's over" is that once you start reading "Drawing of the Three," any ability to stop reading the series "is over." You're a junkie. You're addicted. The series has sunk its claws into you and you wont stop reading until you've finished all seven books.

I know that post is 5+ years old, but what he said. My recommended order of reading, once I got past the hump, has been 2-1-3-4-5-6-7. Drawing of the Three is a better jumping off point from a literature standpoint, but The Gunslinger is how he introduced the story.

Also...I'd be quite okay with Bardem as Roland.

[jeff061]

Also...I'd be quite okay with Bardem as Roland.

This. I am only familiar with his work from No Country, but he was fantastic.

[Chief Rum]

I had no idea they had finally decided to try to put these into movies. So movies AND a six hour TV special? Interesting... I wonder how that works.

I think Bardem is a good choice. In my mind, Roland always had black hair and a "Spanish style" ancestry, to go along with the ice cold blue eyes. Bardem will have to wear contacts, but he certainly has the acting chops. He can pull this off.

[SackAttack]

I had no idea they had finally decided to try to put these into movies. So movies AND a six hour TV special? Interesting... I wonder how that works.

I think Bardem is a good choice. In my mind, Roland always had black hair and a "Spanish style" ancestry, to go along with the ice cold blue eyes. Bardem will have to wear contacts, but he certainly has the acting chops. He can pull this off.

Well, the idea is that the TV specials (plural, note) will intersperse the movies.

So there will be three movies, but they'll have specials in between each movie to fill in the gaps for a total of (probably) 20+ hours of film. I don't know if they'll finish it off with a miniseries as well but that seems unlikely. Maybe they'll go miniseries to build up for the first movie, then movie, series, movie, series, movie.

That might get us closer to 26 hours.

Should be good times either way.

[SackAttack]

Ain't It Cool News: The best in movie, TV, DVD, and comic book news. (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/48244)

Apparently there will be a game involved, too. Commenter on Kotaku sez that a BioWare employee has mentioned that they're working on a Dark Tower game.

[Lathum]

So long Stephen King — ‘Dark Tower’ movies canceled – Frankly My Dear – Orlando Sentinel (http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_movies_blog/2011/07/so-long-stephen-king-dark-tower-movies-canceled.html)

[Honolulu_Blue]

So long Stephen King — ‘Dark Tower’ movies canceled – Frankly My Dear – Orlando Sentinel (http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_movies_blog/2011/07/so-long-stephen-king-dark-tower-movies-canceled.html)

I think this is for the best.

[SnowMan]

Agreed, I love the DT series, but I'm not too upset about this.

[Mantle2600]

Well I started reading these about a month and a half ago and just finished today. Wow, it was a hell of a journey.

I don't have a problem with the ending, had a feeling it would end in some fashion like it did, but what i'm not clear on is if time only travels one way in that world and ours, then how is it possible that Roland has to keep restarting his journey over and over? Is the Tower or Gan or whatever it is that is causing it unaffected to such rules and constraints as time? Or am I just missing something.

[Senator]

I started reading this series because I think when King is on, he is great. Heard different attitudes about this series, so started reading it, and lasted about 3/4ths of the book before I gave up. I never give up on books, but I was not interested and knew there were several books to go after this one, so I just stopped, and read a new book on Custer and Little Bighorn.

[jeff061]

Book 1 really isn't terribly representative of the series and has kind of an odd flow to it(if I remember correctly). Wizard and Glass was just genius, type of book I'll remember reading for the 1st time until the day I die.

Wasn't a big fan of Wolves of the Calla, but other than that everything else is well worth sticking past the first book, especially with how short it is.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well I started reading these about a month and a half ago and just finished today. Wow, it was a hell of a journey.

I don't have a problem with the ending, had a feeling it would end in some fashion like it did, but what i'm not clear on is if time only travels one way in that world and ours, then how is it possible that Roland has to keep restarting his journey over and over? Is the Tower or Gan or whatever it is that is causing it unaffected to such rules and constraints as time? Or am I just missing something.

I loved how Roland's story ended. Everything from when he got into the Tower until the end was perfect. It really fit the themes of the book and the character of Roland himself perfectly. I really enjoyed it.

It was everything leading up to that point that I didn't like. The whole spider-baby thing was stupid. The man in black just getting offed with no real effect. The King in Red getting erased by some character brought in at the very end of the series?

[Autumn]

I agree about the Wizard and the Glass. It's in a way completely disjointed from the series, but that story from his childhood with the witch and his beloved, that was really both stirring and truly horrifying. I still think about that.

And the end of the series, yes, I hate when authors introduce something brand new towards the end like that. I like to feel like the author has been building me up to something grand all these years, and that sort of thing dashes that feeling. The very end was very good though.

It turned out to be a very rambling, idiosyncratic series, I think showing the fact that it was written over the course of his entire career. I'm sure if he sat down and plowed through the whole thing in one go it would be much together, and a very different story.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I agree about the Wizard and the Glass. It's in a way completely disjointed from the series, but that story from his childhood with the witch and his beloved, that was really both stirring and truly horrifying. I still think about that.

And the end of the series, yes, I hate when authors introduce something brand new towards the end like that. I like to feel like the author has been building me up to something grand all these years, and that sort of thing dashes that feeling. The very end was very good though.

It turned out to be a very rambling, idiosyncratic series, I think showing the fact that it was written over the course of his entire career. I'm sure if he sat down and plowed through the whole thing in one go it would be much together, and a very different story.

I think the length of time it took really changed things. King was a totally different author and person when he wrote the last half of the series. Obviously his near death experience when he got hit by that van really affected him.

I liked the series. I'm glad I read it. I read the first four at least twice. Somethings worked wonderfully, some didn't. Wizard and the Glass was fantastic. I also really loved "Drawing Of The Three." Roland remains one of my favorite literary characters of all time.

[flounder]

So apparently there's a new Dark Tower book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Wind-Through-Keyhole-Tower/dp/1451658907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335314184&sr=8-1) out that takes place just after Wizard and Glass. Much like that book, it's Roland telling a story from his past. I will probably pick it up at some point, but I can't say I'm going to rush out and get it.

[SackAttack]

So apparently there's a new Dark Tower book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Wind-Through-Keyhole-Tower/dp/1451658907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335314184&sr=8-1) out that takes place just after Wizard and Glass. Much like that book, it's Roland telling a story from his past. I will probably pick it up at some point, but I can't say I'm going to rush out and get it.

I picked it up because a) my other 7 books are in hardcover and I didn't wanna spoil that waiting for paperback and b) it was $18'ish at Barnes and Noble. Not bad for instant gratification.

But I think I'll wait to read it until I re-read the series again, and read it in its 'natural' place between W&G and Wolves.

[CrimsonFox]

at first I thought this was about the Burton/Depp Trainwreck...

[SackAttack]

So long Stephen King — ‘Dark Tower’ movies canceled – Frankly My Dear – Orlando Sentinel (http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_movies_blog/2011/07/so-long-stephen-king-dark-tower-movies-canceled.html)

http://movies.ign.com/articles/122/1220616p1.html

Or are they? Apparently they're still looking at the movies/miniseries combo, with the miniseries stuff to air on HBO. That's probably the best place for the miniseries in terms of potential production values, really. I wouldn't have trusted it on one of the big four OTA networks.

[Wanderer]

The Dark Tower Is Back - IGN (http://movies.ign.com/articles/122/1220616p1.html)

Or are they? Apparently they're still looking at the movies/miniseries combo, with the miniseries stuff to air on HBO. That's probably the best place for the miniseries in terms of potential production values, really. I wouldn't have trusted it on one of the big four OTA networks.Don't know if this is still alive or not, but HBO handled an epic series pretty well recently with Game of Thrones, no? I could get behind this.

I'm amazed by how much love Wizard & Glass got on this thread. I waited for so long for that book, and was very disappointed. The Wizard of Oz bit was badly done and out of place, and King just felt "off" to me.

Count me with the guy that said he gave up on The Gunslinger on his first pass. I was maybe 15. I went back to it a few years later, still couldn't get into the first one, but I pretty much skimmed it and moved on to Drawing of the Three. Whoa. For my money, that one was the best of the lot. It was riveting, had outstanding development of interesting characters, pushed the vision forward, and laid the groundwork for all the mysteries to come.

2nd for me was Wolves of the Calla, may it dooya fine. Cool character development here as well, and the setting was, for me, was as real as it gets. The characteristic language here was vintage King - believable and it "comes trippingly off the tongue." In certain situations, I've been known to drop a "kennit/ya ken," a "do ya," or a "thankee-sai." Technically, that last one is Mid-World generally, but you get the point. My home town changed a ton in the last few years, and just a couple weeks ago I found myself thinking of the town as it exists in my memory as "TOWNNAME-that-was."

I engage my Lit Nerd friends and family on this all the time: King churns out a lot of text, and a decent chunk of it is pretty bad. But at his best, King is engaging, innovative, and as good as many authors who have entire graduate courses dedicated to their work. His use of italics to track unspoken - and even subconscious - thoughts, the rhythms and shadows that lurk behind the thoughts we actually express.

It's almost impossible to get now (a testament to some SERIOUS clout) but did anyone read Rage? It's from the original Bachmann Books with Roadwork (pffft), The Running Man (don't judge it by the cheesy movie), and The Long Walk (good stuff). Anyway, Rage could be a case study in a textbook of abnormal adolescent psychology. If you've ever wondered what it was like living in the heads' of those kids from Columbine (or pick your favorite school shooting), this is a pretty good bet.

[Autumn]

Rage is great, yes. And I liked Wizard and Glass despite that it went kind of off the rails. I think simply because the story of his girlfriend was just incredibly moving, it made up for all the rest.

[Jas_lov]

Books 2 and 3 were the best for me, then 4. I liked the back story in Wizard and Glass. Didn't like 5 as much. Thought it took too long to get to the end battle but it was still better than 6 which I thought was the worst of the series. Has anyone read book 8?

[SackAttack]

Don't know if this is still alive or not, but HBO handled an epic series pretty well recently with Game of Thrones, no? I could get behind this.

That's actually what was top of mind for me when I said HBO would be the best place for The Dark Tower, but they've had some other pretty great series over the years also.

Count me with the guy that said he gave up on The Gunslinger on his first pass. I was maybe 15. I went back to it a few years later, still couldn't get into the first one, but I pretty much skimmed it and moved on to Drawing of the Three. Whoa. For my money, that one was the best of the lot. It was riveting, had outstanding development of interesting characters, pushed the vision forward, and laid the groundwork for all the mysteries to come.

My ears are burning! :D Whenever I've recommended this series to anybody, I've said read it 2-1-3-4-5-6-7. That'll probably have to get amended some with the new book, but I've always maintained 2 should come first. The characters are much easier to follow if 2 comes before 1.

[JeeberD]

Has anyone read book 8?

You mean the novella, "Wind Through the Keyhole"? I read it and enjoyed it...it was nice to reconnect with characters I had assumed would never provide me new adventures. It wasn't an amazing story, but it was worth the few bucks I paid for it...

[The Jackal]

Bumping this thread to let people know that I'm running a Dark Tower themed werewolf game. Just finished the series myself a few weeks ago and loved it.

WW CLXIV - The Dark Tower (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=2859547#post2859547)

[Groundhog]

My mum tried to get me to read the first Dark Tower novel about 15 or more years ago. I finally started it a few months ago, and finished the final book last night - just started on the 'new' book today.

Looking back at them all, I think my favourite book of the series is a tie between The Drawing of the Three & The Wizard and the Glass - both were excellent for very different reasons. Wizard and the Glass is probably the best 'fantasy' story I've ever read, while Drawing of the Three read much more like a typical Stephen King story, in his prime.

I did really enjoy the final book though, and I loved the ending. Really, really loved it. The only book I didn't love though was Song for Susannah, which seemed more like King getting some of side-story stuff out of the way before the final book. It had its moments though.

One thing always poked at the back of my mind the whole series, and that was the whole thing about ka and Roland (and the others, to a lesser extent) always knew the right thing to do in the right situation - whether it's preparing for a fight, or which way to turn on their walks. Also the whole murkiness of the time between the stories of young Roland and his appearance in the first book. I put it down to the fact that there was no clear direction in the story in the first book - he hadn't thought that far ahead then. But he picked an ending that made everything make sense to me.

I get the impression after the ending that 'ka' was probably memories of having gone through the exact same situation countless times - sometimes making the right decision, sometimes making the wrong one - then knowing what to do next time - a voice in the back of his head.

I don't think he was just given the horn either when sent back at then end, I think he went through everything again, only for it to seem like he stepped straight back to the start of book 1, his memories of everything before then faded away.

Oh, and the movie is slotted for 2017 now. I hope they do a good job with it and we see sequels.

[SackAttack]

My mum tried to get me to read the first Dark Tower novel about 15 or more years ago. I finally started it a few months ago, and finished the final book last night - just started on the 'new' book today.

As I've said before, the first book really lacks the needed context to be the 'first' book. I strongly recommend reading the series beginning with The Drawing of the Three and then doubling back. It's a better hook.

Looking back at them all, I think my favourite book of the series is a tie between The Drawing of the Three & The Wizard and the Glass - both were excellent for very different reasons. Wizard and the Glass is probably the best 'fantasy' story I've ever read, while Drawing of the Three read much more like a typical Stephen King story, in his prime.

Wizard & Glass is where shit started getting weird, but I loved the literary references.

I get the impression after the ending that 'ka' was probably memories of having gone through the exact same situation countless times - sometimes making the right decision, sometimes making the wrong one - then knowing what to do next time - a voice in the back of his head.

It starts somewhere, though. I think it's a little of both. I think 'ka' is analogous to fate, in that things happen as they're supposed to, and that's 'ka,' but you could also draw the inference that Roland and the ka-tet are making their own fate with each trip up the Tower. Kinda Buddhist that way, in that they get reborn and get things a little righter and a little righter and...maybe eventually Roland gets what he's really after?

I don't think he was just given the horn either when sent back at then end, I think he went through everything again, only for it to seem like he stepped straight back to the start of book 1, his memories of everything before then faded away.

I could see an argument for either. He may have been given the horn as a sign of approval that he was closer to repairing the Tower, or the 'ka' whispering in the back of his mind might have suggested that he needed to take better care of the horn, that losing it was one of the things that prevented him from repairing the damage.

[Groundhog]

As I've said before, the first book really lacks the needed context to be the 'first' book. I strongly recommend reading the series beginning with The Drawing of the Three and then doubling back. It's a better hook.

Yep, I don't disagree. I read the revised version which probably flows better, but it read exactly like King described it in the foreword - a story written by a young author who wanted to write a Lord of the Rings-styled fantasy novel in a Western setting, but with no real strong idea of where to go with it.


It starts somewhere, though. I think it's a little of both. I think 'ka' is analogous to fate, in that things happen as they're supposed to, and that's 'ka,' but you could also draw the inference that Roland and the ka-tet are making their own fate with each trip up the Tower. Kinda Buddhist that way, in that they get reborn and get things a little righter and a little righter and...maybe eventually Roland gets what he's really after?

I think that's a good analogy. 'Ka' is obviously derived from the word 'karma', so it makes a lot of sense - keep turning on the wheel and making yourself a little more perfect each time around, before achieving nirvana, which for Roland would be the top level of the tower.


I could see an argument for either. He may have been given the horn as a sign of approval that he was closer to repairing the Tower, or the 'ka' whispering in the back of his mind might have suggested that he needed to take better care of the horn, that losing it was one of the things that prevented him from repairing the damage.

Yeah, I could see that too.

One thing I wonder about is the damage to the beams - does it 'reset' as well, or does it continue to tick down, making each of Roland's 'turn of the wheel' more critical than the last? Given how close they were to losing the 2nd last beam (and that they lost one during the books), I think it must reset each time, because once it's at 1 beam it'd be game over real quick.

[SackAttack]

Yeah, I could see that too.

One thing I wonder about is the damage to the beams - does it 'reset' as well, or does it continue to tick down, making each of Roland's 'turn of the wheel' more critical than the last? Given how close they were to losing the 2nd last beam (and that they lost one during the books), I think it must reset each time, because once it's at 1 beam it'd be game over real quick.


He's obviously not repairing all the damage with each trip, or there wouldn't be multiple trips. But I do think each time he reaches the Tower, the damage is mitigated some. It may be that getting there with two beams remaining in the cycle we read represents an improvement over the trip before, which in turn represented improvement over the trip before THAT, and so forth. The other thing to consider is whether the forces arrayed against Roland are cognizant of the world "reset" and thus adapt their attacks, kinda like Skynet in the Terminator mythos. Perhaps the attacks on King, trying to take him out, were borne of desperation because they can see how close Roland is?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Matthew McConaughey and Idris Elba Will Face Off in the Long-AwaitedÂ*Dark Tower Movie (http://io9.gizmodo.com/matthew-mcconaughey-and-idris-elba-are-nemeses-in-dark-1762134256)

I absolutely LOVE the casting. Idris Elba and Matthew McConaughey should bot be great.

It sounds like they aren't really going to adapt the book entirely. I don't really know about that. I guess we'll have to wait and see what they plan on doing with the series.

[panerd]

Matthew McConaughey and Idris Elba Will Face Off in the Long-AwaitedÂ*Dark Tower Movie (http://io9.gizmodo.com/matthew-mcconaughey-and-idris-elba-are-nemeses-in-dark-1762134256)

I absolutely LOVE the casting. Idris Elba and Matthew McConaughey should bot be great.

It sounds like they aren't really going to adapt the book entirely. I don't really know about that. I guess we'll have to wait and see what they plan on doing with the series.

One movie for the entire series? Better than nothing I guess but any fan of the books is going to walk away disappointed with that!

[BishopMVP]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GjwfqXTebIY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I still haven't read the series, so I'll let you guys decide if it'll be enough to capture the whole series, but it at least looks like a cool movie.

[HomerSimpson98]

Just started Song Of Susannah and the series is absolutely amazing.

While the trailer looks cool, I am disappointed that there are already things I see that dont jive at all with the books. I dont see how one movie can come close to capturing these long ass books.

[jeff061]

I can't even begin to imagine how they could do a remotely faithful adaption. LOTR is a simple trick in comparison.

I'm pretty much treating it as a stand alone movie and will try not to judge it based on the books.

[Shkspr]

Well, the rumor is...



The movie actually takes place seperately from the books. The cinematic presentation is a new cycle where elements of the story may play out differently or not at all.

[Groundhog]

Well, the rumor is...



The movie actually takes place seperately from the books. The cinematic presentation is a new cycle where elements of the story may play out differently or not at all.



Yeah, and if so, that's a great way to handle the film adaptation IMO, and leaves plenty of room for sequels if it's a hit.

[Groundhog]

I'm pretty much treating it as a stand alone movie and will try not to judge it based on the books.

Yeah, so much of the hate online I've seen from lovers of the book... I mean, did you really want a faithful adaptation of that first book? Pretty much everyone I've shown it to who has no idea that it's based on a book has thought the trailer looks excellent... I tend to agree.

[SackAttack]

the first book should have been the second, and the second should have been the first.

It sounds like the movie has more in common with the second book than the first, anyway.