ARRGH: SportsMogul.... grrrr.

[bryce]

Call me a sucka, but I still visit the Baseball Mogul forums regularly in the hopes of actually seeing a decent product, but I ended up with a novella of a post, and I had to share it... had to vent...

http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65019

and the post itself over on those boards yonder:

A Recap
I can't remember the last time I posted on this board, but this subject brought me calling...

First, a recap of my history since I am probably an unknown here:

Summer 2002: I stumbled across this website (can't even remember how) and downloaded the demo with great intrigue. About 8 hours later, somewhere around 4 in the morning, I was still playing the demo before I finally decided to crash out for the night. The next morning I went to Walmart and bought the CD and got all the patches and played the full game with great enjoyment all summer long.

[Sidenote - I was an unemployed CPA thanks to the collapse of Arthur Andrsen that summer (hence, being able to play the demo until dawn), and I think at some point I actually submitted my resume and/or email pleading for a job. I mention this only to serve as a basis for my initial reaction and perception to the company, it's fanbase, this message board (very active at the time), and my view of the potential of their game.]

2003: I eagerly anticipated an update, if for nothing else than to avoid the 'scrolling' issue that irritated me with the '02 version. Being the anal accountant that I was and am, I usually wait a few months until after a release to purchase a game, so as to allow for bugs to be solved and patches to be issued. As such, I regularly checked this website and the message board all summer long. Unfortunately, somewhere around July/August I noticed that all support whatsoever fell completely off the face of the Earth. So much so that I don't think a final patch/version was eve released. But by that time, I gave up even hoping for one, and moved on to a 2004 release, never purchasing the '03 game.

2004: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.... And another summer goes by where I regularly check these boards and follow the 'progress' of the new version. And I use that term 'progress' VERY, VERY, VERY loosely, as loose as throwing a hotdog down a hallway, and for the second consecutive year, support is lacking, official patches are rare and few and far between, and the 'final' version of the game is not very different than the previous year's version, and still very much bug-ridden at that. (From what I can tell, anyway just from the posts, as I certainly did not buy this version, either.)

Present Day: To answer the poll question, how much should they charge for the '06 version? - NOTHING!!! That's how much! NOTHING!!! Make it freeware!

What are we paying for?!?! A bug ridden game that will never be updated and cured of its bugs that will hardly receive the customer support that other companies provide their customers? (and I am thinking mainly of Jim Grindin’s (spelling?) Solecismic Software and his annual Front Office Football game, which, for comparative sakes, just released an update one full year after its initial release, with updated rosters, a few patches, and several enhancements, FOR FREE!!!) Compare your latest version of Baseball Mogul to the last one, and then reread that description of changes in FOF – why did you shell out $20-$40, or however much you paid?

I have owned a company before in the service industry (blue collar company - chimney sweeping, carpet cleaning, HVAC, etc), and we were about a $1 million revenue company, and we relied 100% on good word-of-mouth and good service, so I have some experience with customer service from 'the other side,' so I think I have some sort of reference point when I say that I have never, ever seen such utter incompetence with said customer service as with this 'company.'

From what I can tell there are about 4 people who regularly post on these forums. A far cry from ’02 when I discovered it. I just picture this company dealing with its customers in a dual-like face-off. On the one side are the customers who are demanding a better product, with more features and updates, with stellar customer service and follow up, but who refuse to pay for a new release until there is sufficient evidence of all of these things being present. On the other side is Sports Mogul, who seemingly refuses to provide any of this support until people buy their game and give them a reason to support it, and until they reach a certain dollar amount, the owners don’t see sufficient reason to support the game…

Guess what, Sports’Mogul’??? - It’s up to YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU and nobody else to make the first move. YOU have to make a better game with more annual enhancements. You have to provide better support. YOU have to make US, as consumers, want to buy YOUR game. And, frankly, this hasn’t been the case since ’02, and until YOU prove otherwise, YOU will not see one penny of MINE ever again.

This ‘aint’ no poker game, Clay and Co. Stop treating like it is. Make a move – make us WANT to spend OUR money on YOU. You haven’t done that in years. Stop bluffing us with a pair of 5’s. A couple years I bought into it; now, I’m calling you out on it.

I’ve since bought every version of OOTP, and I don’t even like the **** game. Every **** year I get about 15 games into my season, and that’s as far as I get before I lose interest. Yet every year I buy the game. Why is that? Because I can count on them, I know what to expect, I know bugs will be patched, there will be support, and questions I ask in the forums will be answered. I'm out of the baseball game buying business this year, though. OOTP bores me; Mogul can't do anything right.

Screw it – I’m about to start my own company – that seems about the only way to get a decent baseball game, do it myself! Take the financial/GM aspect of Mogul, and combine that with the support and some of the nitty gritty of OOTP (lefty/righty splits, ie), and you got yourself a game, folks!

If anyone actually read all this, I should buy you a beer. If anyone with SportsMogul actually read all this, you should make a game worth purchasing!
Bryce

[FBPro]

Yikes......Mogul had some good ideas "once upon a time".

[jbmagic]

you guys see there football mogul 2005 out too now...thee a demo too..


but it cant touch FOF 5.1a

[Bomber]

An interesting poll would be to see who got into FOF through Baseball Mogul. I know it was my gateway to text sims.

[lighthousekeeper]

An interesting poll would be to see who got into FOF through Baseball Mogul. I know it was my gateway to text sims.

same here...although the game sucks

[digamma]

Me three.

[Suicane75]

I played Baseball Mogul for days and days on end when it first came out, havn't touched it since the 2nd version though, he had his chance and he blew it.

[Eaglesfan27]

Baseball mogul was also my pathway to text sims.

[Zippo]

baseball mogul 2002 was the first ever text sim I played. Just the demo though. I went to the store the very next day to search for the game but instead I found season ticket baseball (OOTP3) and never looked back.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Same here for me. BM was also my first text sim then OOTP then finally FOF.

[andy m]

i only found out about FOF2 because of searching around for info on baseball mogul.

[kingnebwsu]

Me too. Baseball Mogul 99 and 2000 is what I played, then FOF 2, TCY, OOTP 3, and the rest is history ;)

I still remember having guys in their last season in Mogul and then trading them after we won the World Series. Awful bug.

[Ragone]

baseball mogul and cm hooked me to sports sims..

Ah, the days of Joey long's dominance.. i miss them so

[condors]

anyone ever get mogul 99 to work on xp?

[Blackadar]

I had the very first version of Modul (99?) once upon a time and loved it. I bought 2000 and was sorely dismayed to see that it was no better and haven't purchased a version since. It's sad to see how shitty of a programmer and businessman Clay has become.

[John Galt]

Me too. And I know Skydog did the same. Baseball Mogul was so ahead of its time, but it just got worse. So sad.

[Celeval]

Same here.

[Fonzie]

[Piling on] It is indeed so, so sad to see what has become of the Mogul franchise. Clay has utterly failed. [/Piling on]

[spleen1015]

The turning point for me was when Mogul got the MLBPA license and went to points instead of $$$.

I was given a copy of the 2003 version and it wasn't much different than the original or the 2000 edition.

Like others, BM is what started me on this road.

[Ben E Lou]

What everybody else said.

:(

[Crapshoot]

Its a shame how fleeting the text sim world is eh ? I played Mogul at the beginning as well- never got into it though.

[Fidatelo]

BM also led me to text sims. I saw a review in a magazine, started researching things online, and found this site.

Edit: Should mention that I never actually played BM though.

[CraigSca]

Clay sent me an alpha version of BM before it was released (that's what begging will get you). It was clearly ahead of it's time and a blast to play. Unfortunately, things haven't changed much in the many years since.

I'm glad the other sports sims in the market haven't followed the same path.

[MikeVic]

BM was my pathway as well. I bought Baseball Mogul and Baseball Mogul 2000. I wanted to buy the newer ones, but the points things was a huge turn-off.

I'll never forget BM though. Without it, I wouldn't know so much about stats, players, and wouldn't be playing text sims.

[ScottVib]

BM was my pathway and Clay was a great guy, but when I didn't see a ton of improvement from BB 2K to the next edition, I ened up checking out other games finding OOTP and moving on from there.

bryce since neither Mogul nor OOTP seem to appear to you, you might want to check out Puresim 2005 which is "shareware" meaning you don't have to buy it to try out the full capabilities of the program... certainly can't hurt to try it.

[Ramzavail]

Mine was One-Nil and Goal! DOS versions of the earliest of soccer text sims.
OH NO! YOU GOT THE BOOT!

Then I went to CM and APBA Baseball

I dabbled with Mogul

Got off of Mogul when Arquimedez Pozo and Jon Nunnally become GODS in that game. Realism stunk.

then went to OOTP, FOF, TCY
and dropped OOTP
and now here I am.

[Godzilla Blitz]

If I'm not mistaken, Clay has a different job now, as well as little kids in the house. I believe that he's only doing Sports Mogul on the side. This is not a defense of his actions, but it's apparent that the game doesn't get much attention from him any more, and I think the question becomes whether to release the game at all, or simply make very minor improvements each year and keep rereleasing it.

I bought this year's version on a whim, and have had fun with it. The player development is solid, the financial system works well, and the AI can give you a run for your money if you take a small market team and add a couple of house rules. They finally added a minor league draft, and that adds something to the game.

However, the game reeks of incompleteness, and needs user tweaking to get to run well. Also, as many have said, the game feels like it has stopped moving forward for about five years now. Essentially, I feel like I paid $20 for the minor league draft feature, which is silly considering how much more value you get in upgrades with other games.

It's a shame that the game doesn't get the love that it deserves. Given Clay's current situation, it almost seems to make more sense that he should sell the company rather than let it languish as it stands.

[JasonC23]

Do you think we here at FOFC could pool enough money to buy the company?

I'm serious.

[Dutch]

I remember playing baseball mogul demo off a PC Gamer Demo CD. It was pretty fun, but I never purchased it until 2003. Then purchased 2004. Because I enjoyed baseball-lite.

For the life of me, I cannot remember how I stumbled across FOF. Whether it be through internet search (my suspicion) or word of mouth.

[Buccaneer]

It's funny, my path was slightly different. I bought Football Mogul in early 2000 and had a blast with it. It was not until that July that I remembered reading something about FOF a while back and that's what got me to the Sideline. Around that time I checked out Baseball Mogul (a demo, don't recall which version) but I thought it sucked like a lemonparty (pretty clever, huh?). There was something about it that just didn't click whereas FM, despite being able to buy your way to a championship, was fun and felt a little like being a GM. I was thinking about that recently because I'm trying to understand how I got tired of OOTP. I conclude that maybe baseball does not translate all that well to a GM sim.

[Deattribution]

It's funny, my path was slightly different. I bought Football Mogul in early 2000 and had a blast with it. It was not until that July that I remembered reading something about FOF a while back and that's what got me to the Sideline. Around that time I checked out Baseball Mogul (a demo, don't recall which version) but I thought it sucked like a lemonparty (pretty clever, huh?). There was something about it that just didn't click whereas FM, despite being able to buy your way to a championship, was fun and felt a little like being a GM. I was thinking about that recently because I'm trying to understand how I got tired of OOTP. I conclude that maybe baseball does not translate all that well to a GM sim.


http://www.footballmogul.com/art/fb2k5_splash.jpg


FOF needs more ceramic toad before I buy another damn version ;)

[Buccaneer]

I wouldn't even have guessed that FM was still around.

[tucker342]

yep, baseball mogul was my first as well

[Pumpy Tudors]

So, uh, I have a copy of Baseball Mogul 2003 that's never been opened. Anyone want it?

[CraigSca]

I conclude that maybe baseball does not translate all that well to a GM sim.
I'm beginning to feel the same way. Listening to sports radio and the bidding wars for free agents really gets me jazzed for baseball sims. Unfortunately, the technology isn't there for the subtle nuances that exist in the real game. In a sim you basically look at their ratings and their statistics and say "good player" or "bad player". However, would you really have a Jaret Wright situation in a sim game? Half the fans think the Yanks are stupid for paying so much for him, the other half think they're just piling on because they can. Some think the kid is finally coming around, others think that his success was a reflection of Leo Mazzone. Still others are concerned about the number of innings he pitched last year...on it goes.

Can a baseball sim do this? More importantly, do I want it to? A game is a game and it's easy to get bogged down in minutae that will ultimately strip the fun factor from the equation.

[oykib]

I'm beginning to feel the same way. Listening to sports radio and the bidding wars for free agents really gets me jazzed for baseball sims. Unfortunately, the technology isn't there for the subtle nuances that exist in the real game. In a sim you basically look at their ratings and their statistics and say "good player" or "bad player". However, would you really have a Jaret Wright situation in a sim game? Half the fans think the Yanks are stupid for paying so much for him, the other half think they're just piling on because they can. Some think the kid is finally coming around, others think that his success was a reflection of Leo Mazzone. Still others are concerned about the number of innings he pitched last year...on it goes.

Can a baseball sim do this? More importantly, do I want it to? A game is a game and it's easy to get bogged down in minutae that will ultimately strip the fun factor from the equation.

They do it with FM (CM).

Actually, I think Jim could pull it off. FOF I think is the best sim in that it can be played with varying levels of commitment. FM (CM) is great if you want a lot of depth. But there is no option to step back and casually sim out a few seasons at a time.

Baseball really has to pull off the macro/micro thing well.

[Young Drachma]

An interesting poll would be to see who got into FOF through Baseball Mogul. I know it was my gateway to text sims.

I did.

[AZSpeechCoach]

I echo Buc. I bought a cheap 2 pack of FM and BM99 in early 1999 at a Stop and Save software. I was intrigued by the idea of being the GM. Not knowing what else was out there, I started with FM. A few months later, I found out about FOF2 through a review site, and bought that. I've been hooked on various text sims ever since.

[Chief Rum]

bryce, you owe me a beer.

I started with sim games with FBPro over a decade ago, but when that series went to crap and college life got very busy, I stopped playing sim games. There was probably a year or two before I got back into it, and, yes, Baseball Mogul, the original, was one of the main reasons I did.

It was in seeking a football game like FBPro, and spurred on by my experiences with BM, that led me to do some searching and eventually brought me to check out the Sideline.

Disappointing what has happened to this series, although, sadly, I think I came to the conclusions bryce did sometime in 2001--before he even discovered the game.

CR