Moderation

[Chief Rum]

Suicane. sabotai. Shorty. Marmel. Cringer.

That's a list of some of our top posters, our largest presences here. Few posters have contributed as much as these have, and they are the kinds of posters with names like Quiksand, JeeberD, Fritz, maybe myself (if I might be so bold).

And all of the posters at the top have sworn they will never post here again.

Is this the way we want this community run? Should moderation come without checks and balances? Does it need to? At what point, does the statement "for the good of the community" itself become a shield for actions that hurt this community?

I have a lot of respect for our headmaster here. I know he has to deal with a lot of shit. And I am pretty sure how he will react to this thread as well.

That said, I feel compelled to start this thread, because I hope that if this community can respond strongly enough, Ben will see we aren't posting threads to grandstand or troll, as he insists, but because we are longstanding members of this community who are very concerned about the direction it is going.

If you feel as I do, and want to engage in a discussion of the moderation of this community, I would welcome your opinions here, even if it largely agrees with SkyDog's take on things. I think we could use an airing out of greievances at the moment, because right now I fear for the eventual abandonment of this community, which I consider to be one of the best on the Internet.

I also want Ben to know that although my starting this thread is motivated for dissatisfaction with actions he took this weekend, I by and large agree with the basic actions he took, as sovereignstar certainly deserved a banning for posting under fofplaya when he was suspended, and also that I understand protecting Fido (although I think it is to a degree further than required).

I also think it's very sad that I have to learn of many things that happened here on another board entirely.

Anyway, I welcome any comments and hope this thread will be allowed to stay, so we can hopefully have a discussion that can improve this community.

Chief Rum

[sterlingice]

I don't really feel like getting into a protracted debate the night before finals weeks starts, but haven't we had enough of these threads? And while I do put a little extra weight behind them if they're started by someone who's a "regular", the "regulars" are starting to sound like a bunch of malcontent honors kids who are mad because one of their clique got in detention when they thought they were above reproach.

I've had disagreements with Skydog in the past and he's been fairly good about PM'ing me when I've PM'd with my complaints. Personally, I think that's the avenue all of these should have taken and you'd think after the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th person got fed up with SD penalty box'ing the previous one, making a thread like this, only to have the same thing happen, people would have learned.

But when people start threads like this, it really does look like the "grandstanding" word that we're all sick of seeing this weekend and when dirty laundry is aired in public, there is no way it can get smoothed over behind the scenes with cooler heads prevailing.

EDIT: Can we take the soap opera elsewhere? There's sports going on somewhere in the world that we can be discussing and I can get back to studying for finals.

SI

[Alan T]

Unfortunatly there is only a few ways to handle this type of thing. People can either discuss their differences like adults, or alot of people will just move along.

There is apparently enough interest from enough people for some form of public forum on this topic to be had. It takes a big person though to admit that they might have been wrong and change their mind on something for the better good.

I would urge Skydog to listen to the mass number of people who have problems with things over this weekend, and while not necessarily agreeing with other people's point of view on the situation, at least understand there is a need to discuss the topic more.

Even if you have said everything that you can possibly think of saying, right now it appears that alot of people feel that you are supressing the masses or using gestapo type tactics of entirely supressing a point of view that you differ with. In an educated society, people often will be able to hear both sides of a story and come to their own conclusions.

Unlike most of the people that have posted, I havent heard any of the details from other boards, and I am not sure that i really care. What I do care about is such a great community being split over the thought that a good number of people's opinions are being supressed. I am pretty confident that was not your intentions, and instead you were looking to try to put out a fire that might cause a whole bunch of trolling or other problems in your mind, but it appears clear that it opened pandora's box. Now that we have let loose this monster, we have no choice but to deal with it.

I am trying to be pretty impartial in this matter, and would hope that you will be a bigger man like I have seen you be in the past and take a step back to see the forest so to speak...

[VPI97]

maybe myself (if I might be so bold) You may.

As for this thread, what is there to discuss? The issue that is currently on the minds of many of those expatriates (gleaned from posts around the FOF community) seems to be whether SD was right in what he did and whether or not SD is fit to be moderator of this board. But at this point, what's the point of discussing either? After all, there's only two possible outcomes...both of which are going to split this community.

[sterlingice]

But at this point, what's the point of discussing either? After all, there's only two possible outcomes...both of which are going to split this community.
Exactly my point above. No good can come from rehashing this over and over again. Yet here we are again.

SI

[MikeVick7]

I don't really feel like getting into a protracted debate the night before finals weeks starts, but haven't we had enough of these threads? And while I do put a little extra weight behind them if they're started by someone who's a "regular", the "regulars" are starting to sound like a bunch of malcontent honors kids who are mad because one of their clique got in detention when they thought they were above reproach.

I've had disagreements with Skydog in the past and he's been fairly good about PM'ing me when I've PM'd with my complaints. Personally, I think that's the avenue all of these should have taken and you'd think after the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th person got fed up with SD penalty box'ing the previous one, making a thread like this, only to have the same thing happen, people would have learned.

But when people start threads like this, it really does look like the "grandstanding" word that we're all sick of seeing this weekend and when dirty laundry is aired in public, there is no way it can get smoothed over behind the scenes with cooler heads prevailing.

EDIT: Can we take the soap opera elsewhere? There's sports going on somewhere in the world that we can be discussing and I can get back to studying for finals.

SI

A. MEN.

I was typing out my own long-winded contribution to this but then decided to refresh to see if anyone had added to it. And SI pretty much captured it in my opinion.

[ISiddiqui]

I mostly agree with what you've said. I disagree on how this particular situation with sovereignstar should have been handled (a longer suspension is the better way to deal with such a thing first). I think that open discussion of moderation decisions is the way to go. Clamping down on discussion and dissent doesn't do good things for the community as a whole and may ultimately destroy it.

One of the problems here is that while most people may support the original actions taken by the moderating crew, very few, I've seen, support this 'gag-order' (If I may call it that) on the issue. And, in particular, may feel that it was a little of an overreaction.

If a discussion because just hostile with no real substance, then shut it down sure, but close it, don't delete it. I think everyone should see what happened rather than what happened here when a great deal of posters (me included) wondered what the Hell was going on and got it solely from the other side. Closing threads intended to enlighten the rest the community with just a 'I said so' post makes more people turn against the moderation rather than understanding the issue.

You can make your decision known and why you made it and say that you won't change it, but having people discuss it afterwards, as long as it doesn't develop into a flamewar, hurts nobody, IMO.

This, on the other hand... well..

[Chief Rum]

Alan: Thanks, you hit the nail on the head pretty good there. Go play OOTP6 and join an online league or two. ;)

SI: If it matters any, I don't have any particular relationships wiht the posters mentioned. Although I am in an online league with Marmel and Shorty, I think they would agree I am more "around" than I am directly conversing and being friendly with everyone in those leagues. I have no prior connection to Suicane, Cringer or sabotai at in any form. So these aren't my "expatriates" as you would say. I am truly concerned about this community and all that dwell therein, not in bringing those specific posters back.

VPI: I am hoping we don't split this community, but instead have an adult discussion that either leads to change where needed as a consensus of the board, or keeping the status quo (if that is, in fact, the board's desire).

Personalyl, I think Sky Dog is the best moderator I have ever run into (well, you're pretty close ;) ), and I think this is simply an area on which he and I have a difference of opinion. That said, I wouldn't have bothered with this thread if I didn't feel that the majority of the community would agree with me on the need to cease supressing opinion and discussion here.

CR

[Desnudo]

You may.

As for this thread, what is there to discuss? The issue that is currently on the minds of many of those expatriates (gleaned from posts around the FOF community) seems to be whether SD was right in what he did and whether or not SD is fit to be moderator of this board. But at this point, what's the point of discussing either? After all, there's only two possible outcomes...both of which are going to split this community.

Agreed. If you want to bring about change then PM Skydog, like he has mentioned numerous times, but the fact of the matter is that he is the mod.

[VPI97]

I am hoping we don't split this community, but instead have an adult discussion that either leads to change where needed as a consensus of the board, or keeping the status quo (if that is, in fact, the board's desire). That's a nice intention, but from the opinions I've read, there's no chance of reaching a consensus on anything regarding this weekend. On one hand you have a group that seems to have always had issues with the way SD handles things and feel that the latest misstep is just the breaking point...on the other, you have a group that seems to think that even if SD mishandled things, the overall good that he has done as a moderator of this board gives him the leeway to not be perfect all of the time. None of those opinions are going to change.

[Chief Rum]

Agreed. If you want to bring about change then PM Skydog, like he has mentioned numerous times, but the fact of the matter is that he is the mod.

But does that mean his moderation cannot be discussed? Is that the sort of community we want this to be?

I would imagine you would think of this differently if this community was exhanged with country, and Sky Dog with George Bush. What do you think the outcry would be if discussion of Bush's actions were suppressed? And keep in mind, I am someone who by and large supported Bush.

As for accusations of grandstanding, I can noyl say if anyone thinks I am doing this as some sort of cry for attention, then you must not have paid much attention to my posts for the past four years. I generally speak my mind and don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about it; there's evidence I don't really care to cater to the community's opinions of me. If I did, I would have a much "nicer" history, I am sure.

CR

[Tigercat]

My two cents, first of all i think SkyDog is a very good moderator, both in terms of his actions and the thought he puts behind his actions. He seems to be a smart and thoughtful guy. I think 95%+ of the people on this board stand and will continue to stand behind him as a great moderator.

Its for that very reason that i almost think its unessassary for him to be so heavy handed about issues like this. Its seems like open discussion of moderation issues is only a bad thing when the moderator has something to hide or a position that is not easily defendable. i don't think Ben will ever be in that sort of extreme position.

I think topics like this and others have their place in this community, because when people that are mainstays in the community leave, it is understandable that people want to talk about the change in their community.

[Chief Rum]

That's a nice intention, but from the opinions I've read, there's no chance of reaching a consensus on anything regarding this weekend. On one hand you have a group that seems to have always had issues with the way SD handles things and feel that the latest misstep is just the breaking point...on the other, you have a group that seems to think that even if SD mishandled things, the overall good that he has done as a moderator of this board gives him the leeway to not be perfect all of the time. None of those opinions are going to change.

I think that's a polarized view of the community that might not actually bear out with further discussion. I believe we have a diverse neighborhood here, and we will see an opinion range that runs the gamut from the stances you stated, and even beyond both points.

I suppose maybe I am being optimistic, but I do think we can have a discussion that may convince Ben to ameliorate at least some small aspect of his moderation, at least with respect to his handling of discussions of the handling of this board.

CR

[LionsFan10]

Well,

I may not have a whole shit load of posts here, but I've been around since the beginning. Back when FOF had it's very first message board. I've seen people come and go from this community for a long, long time and while I don't believe EVERYTHING SkyDog does is perfect or correct in my opinion, I do believe the only reason this community has stayed so tight knit and close, as well as lasted so long is because of the no-nonsense policy that the moderators such as SkyDog and those before him have had up until this point. Like I said, that doesn't mean I believe or agree with every decision the mod's make, I do believe it is because of them that we still have this place.

Just my $0.02

[Desnudo]

But does that mean his moderation cannot be discussed? Is that the sort of community we want this to be?

I would imagine you would think of this differently if this community was exhanged with country, and Sky Dog with George Bush. What do you think the outcry would be if discussion of Bush's actions were suppressed? And keep in mind, I am someone who by and large supported Bush.

As for accusations of grandstanding, I can noyl say if anyone thinks I am doing this as some sort of cry for attention, then you must not have paid much attention to my posts for the past four years. I generally speak my mind and don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about it; there's evidence I don't really care to cater to the community's opinions of me. If I did, I would have a much "nicer" history, I am sure.

CR

It's really up to him to decide. It's not fair to compare an internet message board to running the country. One is a democracy, the other is run by a fair and benovolent dictator ;) . My feelings on the subject are that anyone who is not an idiot knows where SkyDog's boundaries are because he is very clear about where they are, and anyone who chooses to press them knows full well what they are getting into. That would include discussing the reasons for the banning of people. Have all the bannings been perfectly fair? I'm sure they haven't, but that's between the bannee and the mod. Allowing discussion of it on the board only creates animosity and undermines the whole point of banning the person in the first place.

[VPI97]

I suppose maybe I am being optimistic, but I do think we can have a discussion that may convince Ben to ameliorate at least some small aspect of his moderation, at least with respect to his handling of discussions of the handling of this board. Is that what we're looking to accomplish? To have SD change his style of moderating? If we're looking for a resolution that would make the major participants happy, I don't think that's it. I mean if some are saying that they'll only return is SD is removed, then a change of his 'style' isn't the end result that they want.

Now if you want to write off those posters as acceptable losses and move onto how SD's style should be for the remainder of us, then I really think that's an issue that SD needs to determine for himself.

[Chief Rum]

It's really up to him to decide. It's not fair to compare an internet message board to running the country. One is a democracy, the other is run by a fair and benovolent dictator ;) . My feelings on the subject are that anyone who is not an idiot knows where SkyDog's boundaries are because he is very clear about where they are, and anyone who chooses to press them knows full well what they are getting into. That would include discussing the reasons for the banning of people. Have all the bannings been perfectly fair? I'm sure they haven't, but that's between the bannee and the mod. Allowing discussion of it on the board only creates animosity and undermines the whole point of banning the person in the first place.

I agree that open animosity is certainly a risk in any discussion, be it about board moderation, religion, college football playoff systems or the proper coloring of Skydog's patriotic undies.

But discussions bring benefits with them as well. It can lead to harmony and understanding of decisions. It can eliminate or at least severely minimalize the behind the scenes back talk that is at this very moment undermining the strength of this community, spreading on other boards. It can set a precedent for free and open discussion here at FOFC, which in the past has been a strong point not found on too many other Internet boards. Animosity is not a given--but I see many of these other benefits as far more likely to occur. So keeping the lid on most discussions (of which I think this is one) is detrimental to the longterm health of the community.

As for your very last point, I disagree that discussion undermines the banning decision. SkyDog is here to make those decisions, and no one is calling for him to reverse those bannings (at leats no one yet here). Discussion here has no effect on the banning, nor should it. Ben should stand by his decision to ban, as I am sure he will, for to do less calls into question his ability as a moderator.

The discussion is not to overturn past decisions, so much as to give Skydog at least some window into the community's opinion of that decision, where he can properly evaluate it and, if needed, make changes to his moderation in the future so that it better fits with the majority opinion of this community, which last I checked he is technically serving in this capacity.

To suppress that discussion not only inhibits the exchange of ideas here, it can alienate a good percentage of the community and make it a shell of itself when people stop posting here, and it can remove Skydog from his link with the community, putting him out of touch with the community consiousness.

CR

[Chief Rum]

Is that what we're looking to accomplish? To have SD change his style of moderating? If we're looking for a resolution that would make the major participants happy, I don't think that's it. I mean if some are saying that they'll only return is SD is removed, then a change of his 'style' isn't the end result that they want.

Now if you want to write off those posters as acceptable losses and move onto how SD's style should be for the remainder of us, then I really think that's an issue that SD needs to determine for himself.

My goal is to ask the community to supply their opinions on the matter, so that Ben can get a read on our opinion of what he did, and if necessary, to consider making any changes in small aspects of his approach to moderating this board.

I'm not even concretely certain Ben needs to change a single thing--I just feel suppressing discussion of his decisions and deleting whole threads and posts are not the way to do so. If few others feel as I do, then Ben will go on his way, I'll be suspended at least, return in a few days, and we'll go on from there. Needless to say, I am hoping for better than that, though.

I'm not seeking a decision to make those five or others banned happy. I'm seeking an effect on future decisions that will aid the continued growth and community here at FOFC. If that includes those five, that is up to them. If they won't return until Skydog is gone, well, then, they are as good as gone, because I for one support SkyDog moderating this forum, and I don't think he should have to acquiesce to please them.

As for your second paragrapg, obviously that is the crux of the situation I am looking at, but as it stands right now, I don't believe Ben is inclined to even consider changes to his approach. So my hope in this discussion is to present a community opinion that suggests he might consider ameliorating his decisions with regards to how he handles discussions of his moderation of the board.

CR

[Eaglesfan27]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with a Bruin, but I agree with just about everything you stated in this thread CR.

I think Ben is the best moderator I've ever seen, but I think you bring up some very valid points in this thread.

[stevew]

Prediction

Thread: Deleted
Rum:Possibly in the Box
Alphabet:Worked to death by Chief


:)
(nice fleecing of andy the other day BTW)

[Cringer]

OK, i will put a few things here and then exit stage left again. First off, I have not completely ropped of these boards. Cutting way back? Yes. My main purpose for remaining here is in order to be able to post in the MP Matchmaking Forum when the Imperial League has an opening. Now, on to a couple of the reasons I have a big problem with Skydog in this thing.

1. Understand that there are special and rare circumstances surrounding the post and thread deletions. Y'all should know by now that I *VERY* rarely delete a single post around here, much less an entire thread. If something needs to be taken down, I just edit the most egregious stuff. Understand that this is an extreme rarity of a situation.
Special and rare circumstances? Yes, I guess that it is not every day someone makes a smart-ass comment about Fido. Well someone did, so what? Smart ass comments are made all the time here, and this was not some hate filled rant. "That is not the kind of ass kissing that is going to bring back Fido." That was what sovereignstar put, and he was suspended for it. I think that is jumping the gun. When I found out why he jumped the gun, because HE wants a utility for the game, I thought it was a joke. Anyways, we then get pots deleted from myself and Suicane that were trying to tell others who got suspended and why? These were deleted. I can only assume these were deleted because he did not want what was said by sovereignstar anywhere on the board, because why? Fido might happen to pick this day to stop by and give out his utility? I am sorry, but going to such lengths to protect a guy who choose to leave and does not really come back at all is just a little over the top. If it was 5 or 6 posts of hate filled B.S. then fine, that is not needed. This is one of my big gripes, the protection of someone's feelings at such great lengths, someone who does not come to this board any more.

4. I missed a setting on Cringer's minor punishment, and his PM ability has now been restored. I told him that a certain type of stuff wasn't going to be allowed to be posted, and so he put it in his signature line rather than "posting" it. Again, knowing that there are special circumstances here that he doesn't fully understand, my intention was to give him a very minor penalty: no usage of signatures for a few days until this blows over. The PM removal was an accident related to the way usergroups work in the admins' control panel. His PM ability has now been restored. My bad on that one.

Did anyone know that if you made a smartass remark about Fido you then got suspended? That is what i figure he is talking about when he says there were special circumstances that I did not understand. Sorry, I missed the "No Fido Talk" warning in the stickied thread at the top. On to what he says he told me. I like this one because I remember being told of nothing. Whatever I posted was deleted, simple as that. If he said not to post something in one of these threads, then he must have deleted the whole thread to fast for me to see it. I would bet a pretty large sum of money though that nowhere did he tell me I can not say anything about Fido, or about what was said about Fido. That right there is my next big gripe, I was never told this stuff yet he says he did.

I have never had any kind of grudge with Skydog before this, I was fairly nuetral. He was pretty much just one of the guys on this board to me. SO this is not a personal thing. And I can not say that I completely want him removed. Perhaps a change in policy that a smartass remark about someone does not lead to someones suspension. Perhaps a change in policy that you simply delete a post and then suspend that person without saying a word to anyone about it or the reason why, this includes the people suspended.

If it was not for a completely ludicrous suspension in the first place sovereignstar never would have been banned, and that is something that is being looked past as well here. I know there is a camp that feels the way Skydog does, that this damn utitlity is so freaking important that who cares who bites the dust in our quest to get him and it back, and that is pretty sad to me. So lets keep deleting posts whenever someone has something bad to say about Fido. I can guarantee that if the next 10 guys called me an asshole as I walk out the door here for the next week, not one of them would be suspended. I have been called names before here and nothing has been done, as well as have others. Thats fine though, I hope you get your utility.

One last note. This is not about Fido himself, I have no problem with him. I have the same connection with him as I do any of you guys, that we all post here and enjoy it. He just happens to be the subject of the protection going on here. I know there are those who love the guy, and those who do not like him. I am not in either of those, I simply do not like what has happened.

[stevew]

OK, i will put a few things here and then exit stage left again. First off, I have not completely ropped of these boards. Cutting way back? Yes. My main purpose for remaining here is in order to be able to post in the MP Matchmaking Forum when the Imperial League has an opening. Now, on to a couple of the reasons I have a big problem with Skydog in this thing.


Special and rare circumstances? Yes, I guess that it is not every day someone makes a smart-ass comment about Fido. Well someone did, so what? Smart ass comments are made all the time here, and this was not some hate filled rant. "That is not the kind of ass kissing that is going to bring back Fido." That was what sovereignstar put, and he was suspended for it. I think that is jumping the gun. When I found out why he jumped the gun, because HE wants a utility for the game, I thought it was a joke. Anyways, we then get pots deleted from myself and Suicane that were trying to tell others who got suspended and why? These were deleted. I can only assume these were deleted because he did not want what was said by sovereignstar anywhere on the board, because why? Fido might happen to pick this day to stop by and give out his utility? I am sorry, but going to such lengths to protect a guy who choose to leave and does not really come back at all is just a little over the top. If it was 5 or 6 posts of hate filled B.S. then fine, that is not needed. This is one of my big gripes, the protection of someone's feelings at such great lengths, someone who does not come to this board any more.



Did anyone know that if you made a smartass remark about Fido you then got suspended? That is what i figure he is talking about when he says there were special circumstances that I did not understand. Sorry, I missed the "No Fido Talk" warning in the stickied thread at the top. On to what he says he told me. I like this one because I remember being told of nothing. Whatever I posted was deleted, simple as that. If he said not to post something in one of these threads, then he must have deleted the whole thread to fast for me to see it. I would bet a pretty large sum of money though that nowhere did he tell me I can not say anything about Fido, or about what was said about Fido. That right there is my next big gripe, I was never told this stuff yet he says he did.

I have never had any kind of grudge with Skydog before this, I was fairly nuetral. He was pretty much just one of the guys on this board to me. SO this is not a personal thing. And I can not say that I completely want him removed. Perhaps a change in policy that a smartass remark about someone does not lead to someones suspension. Perhaps a change in policy that you simply delete a post and then suspend that person without saying a word to anyone about it or the reason why, this includes the people suspended.

If it was not for a completely ludicrous suspension in the first place sovereignstar never would have been banned, and that is something that is being looked past as well here. I know there is a camp that feels the way Skydog does, that this damn utitlity is so freaking important that who cares who bites the dust in our quest to get him and it back, and that is pretty sad to me. So lets keep deleting posts whenever someone has something bad to say about Fido. I can guarantee that if the next 10 guys called me an asshole as I walk out the door here for the next week, not one of them would be suspended. I have been called names before here and nothing has been done, as well as have others. Thats fine though, I hope you get your utility.

One last note. This is not about Fido himself, I have no problem with him. I have the same connection with him as I do any of you guys, that we all post here and enjoy it. He just happens to be the subject of the protection going on here. I know there are those who love the guy, and those who do not like him. I am not in either of those, I simply do not like what has happened.


Dude, all the asskissing in the world is not gonna bring SovStar back

:)

[Chief Rum]

While I welcome Cringer's contribution to this thread, why do I get the feeling his post has moved this thread from a 70-30 chance of being deleted to a 99-1 chance? :eek:

That said, I support your right to post it, Cringer.

CR

[Chief Rum]

Prediction

Thread: Deleted
Rum:Possibly in the Box
Alphabet:Worked to death by Chief


:)
(nice fleecing of andy the other day BTW)

lol...it was a good deal. As a team policy, I refuse to make any other comments about that trade. :)

My guess is your prediction is 100% true, and if so, I'll take my lumps and move on (from the discussion, not the community).

CR

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow. A lot has happened. I have no idea about any of this draaaama. I am not even sure I know who Fido is. Exciting times. Have we become the Los Angeles Lakers of the internet?

Whatever...

[dawgfan]

First off, many thanks to CR for starting this thread and expressing his feelings in a civilized and well-thought-out manner.

I'm troubled by SkyDog's actions as I mentioned to him in a PM. Not necessarily for banning sov, but for his locking of any and all threads that discussed the situation and called into question his actions. That to me was the biggest issue - that he was not going to tolerate any discussion about his moderating decisions.

I fully understand that moderating a forum is a tough job and you're never going to have everybody agree with everything you do. For the most part I think he's done a very good job, but to squelch any public discussion of his performance doesn't sit right with me. My understanding is that this is a public forum and that it's not SkyDog's forum - just that he (and Ryan S) have been given the trust of the community to oversee the moderation of it. Suppression of public discussion of his actions to me only invites greater scrutiny of what he's done - why should such discussions have to be conducted in private? So long as the discussions are civil and don't devolve into flame wars, why the need to keep them under wraps? Had he simply allowed people to talk about this situation from the start without locking and deleting threads, this discussion would likely not even be taking place right now.

As I pointed out to Ben in my PM to him, I find it ironic and a bit hypocritical that he has actively engaged in observing other public squabbles on this board, yet when discussion turns to his own decisions and actions, he terms it grandstanding and trolling and quashes it.

It is interesting to hear Cringer's side of the story and the reason why sov was put in the penalty box in the first place, and I admit I'm troubled by the implications put forth. I'd like to hear Ben's counterpoint.

I hope that he softens his stance and realizes the value in allowing civilized discussion of his decisions. If such threads turn into flame wars and trolling, fine - then lock the threads (but don't delete them - let them stay visible so all can see for themselves why the thread needed to be locked). I hope this thread remains civilized as well, and I will be deeply disappointed if it remains so and SkyDog still feels a need to lock it.

[Ben E Lou]

Look, there is nothing sinister going on here. All I wanted was to keep from setting Fido off again, because I want an updated version of FOF Reporter. The ONLY reason that I didn't want the matter discussed publicly afterward because I know that he lurks here from time to time. Based on his past behavior, I have a pretty good idea that seeing such a discussion would have brought back up the thread in which he was criticized, and bringing back up said thread was/is a surefire way to pretty much assure that FOF Reporter is dead. I had a very specific standard for which posts I deleted and thread that I locked: if this continues, will it lead back to Fido discussion? There were some things that I let stay in the locked threads; that's why. Ultimately, I don't mind civilized discussion of my decisions, as was said above, but in this case, even civilized discussion would have brought back up the Fido drama--the very thing I was trying to prevent. That's why I did what I did. Nothing more. Nothing less. I just wanted the damn utility. I figured that, like any other of the "drama" situtions that have shown up, this one would die out once the weekend was over, get pushed to the bottom, and Fido would never have to see it.

Obviously, I was incorrect in that assessment.

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.

All accounts have been restored to their pre-Friday status, with the exception of sovereignstar. The fact remains that he posted while under suspension. Due to mitigating circumstances, I've reduced his punishment from banning to an extra 12 hours, and that time will expire at 7:00AM EST today.

I'm sorry. :(

--Ben

(EDITED FOR TWO MINOR TYPOS)

[SirFozzie]

That's the action of a big man, Ben.

I have my own opinion on this whole thing, but I'll keep my mouth shut, and hope that we can return to the status quo quickly.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Look, there is nothing sinister going on here. All I wanted was to keep from setting Fido off again, because I want an updated version of FOF Reporter. The ONLY reason that I didn't want the matter discussed publicly afterward because I know that he lurks here from time to time. Based on his past behavior, I have a pretty good idea that seeing such a discussion would have brought back up the thread in which he was criticized, and bringing back up said thread was/is a surefire was to pretty much assure that FOF Reporter is dead. I had a very specific standard for which posts I deleted and thread that I locked: if this continues, will it lead back to Fido discussion. There were some things that I let stay in the locked threads; that's why. Ultimately, I don't mind civilized discussion of my decisions, as was said above, but in this case, even civilized discussion would have brought back up the Fido drama--the very thing I was trying to prevent. That's why I did what I did. Nothing more. Nothing less. I just wanted the damn utility. I figured that, like any other of the "drama" situtions that have shown up, this one would die out once the weekend was over, get pushed to the bottom, and Fido would never have to see it.

Obviously, I was incorrect in that assessment.

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.

All accounts have been restored to their pre-Friday status, with the exception of sovereignstar. The fact remains that he posted while under suspension. Due to mitigating circumstances, I've reduced his punishment from banning to an extra 12 hours, and that time will expire at 7:00AM EST today.

I'm sorry. :(

--Ben

Well, I am still lost and missed all this hub-bub, but I think I'm pretty happy that way. But I must say, SkyDog, admitting that what you did was wrong, your response, and keen sense of self speak highly of your character. Something that no one who has been around here for too long should be all that surprised of. Well done, it's not an easy thing to do. Let's hope everyone else involved can a deep breath, realize what happened for what it really is (not all that much), and come back to the community.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and incidentally, in the midst of all of this, I realized late yesterday that I am not receiving any e-mails on my bellsouth account--the one that most of you have and the one that my PM/Message notifications come to from this board. I've read all my PM's, but if any of you e-mail me after around 3:45AM Sunday (the last bellsouth e-mail I received), then I haven't seen it yet. Until you hear otherwise, use the ben AT benelou.com to e-mail me (but once you hear otherwise, go back to benlewis AT bellsouth.net, because I only check the benelou e-mail from my home desktop machine. The bellsouth one is my main account, and gets checked every minute from home and the office).

--Ben

[Axxon]

Great post Skydog.

This is the reason why I support your moderation of this site 100%. We can't always make the right decisions in the heat of battle and it takes a big man to reevaluate his choices, own up to the wrong ones then correct them.

If more people acted this way, maybe I wouldn't hate people so much. ;)

For the record, I pretty much nailed what had happened here and told a couple of people in PM's. The only thing is, I said you really didn't have a good way out of the situation but I was wrong. Honesty worked really good and the situation should hopefully be over now.

Keep up the good work.

[Icy]

I must admit i was pissed after reading here something about good members banned without being able for the rest of us to know the reasons, i had to read about it this orning at other boards as couldn't find here the whole info and didn't know what was going on. I think that was the worst mistake, to limit the freedom of speach. I have my own opinion about Fido and if i consider him more or less important than other fofc members who don't develop utilities but contribute a lot to this community. What makes me come back here everyday is not a a football game and it's mods but the community we have here.

Now after reading Skydog post i'm happy again, you need to have big nuts to recognice in public that you were wrong and Skydog did it so he has my full respect again. To be a mod over a great board must be a huge work for sure and also an easy way to make enemies as not everybody will agree with your decisions, but nobody should use his power to limit the freedom of speach as long as it keeps out of trolling or badmouthing without sense. I hope we all learned something from this and that the old members who are thinking or already left the board will come back as they are a big part of this community as all us are like the community word means.

Skydog walked the first step, now is the time for the others that were into this fight to show that they can act the same way. We have the best online community here, let's keep it that way.

[MIJB#19]

Classy post, SD.

[Blackadar]

I don't know what happened, but SkyDog is the MAN and has my full support. I'm going back to playing Worlds of Warcraft now. See you in a couple more weeks. :)

[Flasch186]

I have tears in my eyes, literally...is that pathetic?

[BreizhManu]

I have tears in my eyes, literally...is that pathetic?
yes http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Buzzbee]

Skydog walked the first step, now is the time for the others that were into this fight to show that they can act the same way. We have the best online community here, let's keep it that way.
See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

My opinion is this:

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have tears in my eyes, literally...is that pathetic?

You dramatic types are just so... dramatic. :)

[samifan24]

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

Agreed. Thank you, Skydog. I agree with the others who say we've got a great community here, one of the best out there. Problems have and will occur, but I sincerely hope we can press through them so that FOFC will remain at the top of my bookmarks list for a long time.

[WSUCougar]

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

My opinion is this:

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.
Well stated, Buzz.

But this incident is only the tip of the iceberg around here, in my opinion. I’ve felt for sometime now that the board was in the midst of a general spiral downward. It really became clear to me with the spiteful shit that flew during the election lead-up, but the signs were already there prior to that, and they remain still. Too little respect, too much selfish crap. Whatever happened has become imbedded in the fabric of this community. It has truly soured the experience.

[Samdari]

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

Here's the thing - and this is coming from someone who thinks SD should be praised for doing such a thankless job so conscientiously, and would not want him replaced - the "my moderation decisions cannot be discussed publicly" stance is just plain wrong. He continually locks/deletes threads that criticize his decisions, meanwhile talking out of the other side of his mouth that all opinions are welcome here as long as they are stated in a civil manner. Quieting public dissention is rule #1 in the dictator's guide to keeping power. Not that I think SD is trying to truly trying to be a dictator here, but that particular policy certainly smacks of it. While I agree wholeheartedly that what Ben brings to this board as a moderator and member far outweighs the negative, I think that this policy does the board more harm than good, especially when it encourages valued members to leave.

Ben, whether you want it to be the case or not, moderation decisions are a legitimate topic of discussion. They are part of what happens in our community, and we should be able to express dissenting opinions, if we truly want an open forum.

[Flasch186]

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.




Thats ok, but then it would be on them and not becuase of an issue. Like Ben said, he learned from this, not is coalescing to demands, but actually sees that perhaps he didnt handle this the best way possible. Thats what is wonderful about being an adult, being able to learn from your mistakes and move forward with new knowledge.

If some people hold a grudge than that is their own fault. Forgiveness must be given before it can be gotten. I think it is a beautiful thing and will make our communtiy stronger....utilities shmootilities, its us that make the FOFC this huge (i guess there is a game out there to that some of us like but...) its us that make it big.

We can come in here and tell stories about our lives with abbreviations, its us that can post pictures of our shaved heads in support of our father, its us who can post pictures of ourselves in our undies, its us who say prayers for eachother when something terrible happened or might, its FOFC that can smack eachother around a bit when we get drunk and start fights, its FOFC that can tell us how long to wait before calling the girl, its FOFC that can tell us what parts we need to make our new computer, its FOFC that can tell us why our political views are wrong, its FOFC that can let us trade games, and finally its FOFC that can bring all people of shapes sizes religions ages together. That is what the FOFC is about.....in essence we have transcended utilities and, no offense Jim, a game.....were a family. This was just simply, our Holiday squabble.

[Blackadar]

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

My opinion is this:

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

I understand your point. However, if certain posters are going to use this as an excuse for SkyDog to "step down", then they can get out. It's his site, period, and he decides when he's had enough.

WSU, I agree the election stuff got out of hand. That's why, for the most part, I stopped visiting election threads. However, I think that was indiciative of the election in general across the entire country.

[Flasch186]

Well stated, Buzz.

But this incident is only the tip of the iceberg around here, in my opinion. I’ve felt for sometime now that the board was in the midst of a general spiral downward. It really became clear to me with the spiteful shit that flew during the election lead-up, but the signs were already there prior to that, and they remain still. Too little respect, too much selfish crap. Whatever happened has become imbedded in the fabric of this community. It has truly soured the experience.


well I havnt been here long but I was involved in much of the political debate and I guess Ill say on that note you didnt have to read it. I feel closer to those I debated with than not. I didnt take it personally, I found it fun and enlightening....its a shame you didnt.

HOWEVER, without having the past to consider, I find this to be a wonderful community and outside of mistakes that perhaps Ben made this weekend, wouldnt change a thing.

[spleen1015]

Thats ok, but then it would be on them and not becuase of an issue. Like Ben said, he learned from this, not is coalescing to demands, but actually sees that perhaps he didnt handle this the best way possible. Thats what is wonderful about being an adult, being able to learn from your mistakes and move forward with new knowledge.

If some people hold a grudge than that is their own fault. Forgiveness must be given before it can be gotten. I think it is a beautiful thing and will make our communtiy stronger....utilities shmootilities, its us that make the FOFC this huge (i guess there is a game out there to that some of us like but...) its us that make it big.

We can come in here and tell stories about our lives with abbreviations, its us that can post pictures of our shaved heads in support of our father, its us who can post pictures of ourselves in our undies, its us who say prayers for eachother when something terrible happened or might, its FOFC that can smack eachother around a bit when we get drunk and start fights, its FOFC that can tell us how long to wait before calling the girl, its FOFC that can tell us what parts we need to make our new computer, its FOFC that can tell us why our political views are wrong, its FOFC that can let us trade games, and finally its FOFC that can bring all people of shapes sizes religions ages together. That is what the FOFC is about.....in essence we have transcended utilities and, no offense Jim, a game.....were a family. This was just simply, our Holiday squabble.

Remember this thread (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=20274)?

[Draft Dodger]

I'm impressed - I would have never expected SD to realize his mistake, and to admit it publicly. So, now I guess I can save my goodbye post.

Classy move Ben - you went a long way to restoring my faith in your ability to moderate this board.

[Blade6119]

Well stated, Buzz.

But this incident is only the tip of the iceberg around here, in my opinion. I’ve felt for sometime now that the board was in the midst of a general spiral downward. It really became clear to me with the spiteful shit that flew during the election lead-up, but the signs were already there prior to that, and they remain still. Too little respect, too much selfish crap. Whatever happened has become imbedded in the fabric of this community. It has truly soured the experience.

As someone who stays mainly over in the dynasty section, im didn't know who fido was, and dont really have a close affiliation with many of the people involved. I value the friendship of a select few here on the board, and i take everything they say with much more weight then others. WSU is one of those people, and to hear him say that makes me think. I have noticed similar patterns within the board, but the reasons behind it are unclear to me. Ive been with this board for 4 years now, and ive lost interest in the general discussion. It seems the logical debates and friendly conversations have become less and less likely as compred to some drama about some member getting his feelings hurt over a comment i didnt think was that bad. I have really only gotten involved in one drama issue ever, so id prefer to stay out of this one if possible. But id like to consider my views unbiased as i know little about either soverign or fido. It seems things like this are becoming more common, and unless it is changed(i dont know how, because i feel new membership has spurred this, and dont take that to mean if your new it you) i may stay permanantly over on the Dynasty Side. Many of the people i joined and spoke with for years have left over these events, and i fear that i may as well eventually if the ship is not righted. I have always disliked SkyDog as a moderator due to some very questionable decisions in my mind, and without knowing full well what happened this weekend i will withhold my comments on it. I just feel like the drama, or at least Skydog's view of drama has been increased....and then he stops any questioning. I understand full well the need for order and the moderator to be respected(which i do, dont get me wrong...especially after his post above), but i think part of what draws me here is the wealth of people with great insights into issues that i didnt ever see before. Hearing WSU complain, as well as privately speaking with 2 other members i hold in high regard, i just worry about the current direction. Im not sure any other person could do a better job overall, and ive been happy with Sky Dog since the day i joined...i just worry for the board about everything that has happened. We have lost many of our best over the past year, and i hope we can keep what we have left from that group. I have no solution, so i understand full well the task ahead for all of us, but i think EVERYONE(including those lie soveringstar) need to work on improving this. Understand that not everyone has the same sense of humor, think about what you say before typing it up, and i think we can really cut this stuff down. Hopefully we can restore this board to the respected forum it once was rom the state of degenerating into "just another board" it is becoming. Alright, im done, and i didnt take my own advice and re-read so we shall see how my jumbled thoughts came out.

[daedalus]

Good response, Ben. I have not always agreed with all you or your actions as a moderator but recent events have not changed my opinion of you as a moderator: you're a fairly hands off mod like Blackie was and a damn good one, like he was. I will say that I disagreed with closing up or locking all the threads that could have discussed this issue. Locking up kingjerkoff's thread, I have no problem with since, unlike Matthijs, I have no positive impression of him. All I see is an attempt to be the usual jackass he has always been (I doubt you will remember how back-and-forth discussion of whether or not people like him are worthwhile on a message board back in the old board's days). I think it would have been better to have left at least one up for the back and forth debate to have gone on. But, alas, that is an opinion of someone who was not in the line of fire and, thus, have a FAR easier time being neutral. Ultimately: dude, you may have and probably did screwed up some this time but, in light of what you have to deal with and how you have always been, fuck it. I'd rather have you and the way you mod fucking up now and again (you ARE human, right?) than some uptight, self-righteous jerkoff (see: SI's board) any day. The apology, though not directed at me nor involving me any, is greatly appreciated.

Good post and good discussion, Chief. Your efforts and patience in keeping the discussion going and on-topic is greatly appreciated. Good show. (Where are my dysnasties, though? Please? PLEASE?!?!!!!!! :D)

As for the rest of the crap that went on . . . Sorry, but sovereignstar isn't a real big loss in my eyes. Dude has constantly been attempting to push the envelope of the dos/don'ts the whole damn time he's here. C'mon. Give it a f'n rest already. There's a significant difference between "Oops, I screwed up. Sorry, guys." and "Let me see if I can push the boundary of what I can and cannot do and see how far I can get." It's old.

Much as I respect you, Cringer, putting shit in the signature line when Ben specifically ask you to not post about it is lame and 5th grade as all Hell.

[Samdari]

Much as I respect you, Cringer, putting shit in the signature line when Ben specifically ask you to not post about it is lame and 5th grade as all Hell.

Ben should not be dictating to members what topics they comment on, period.

[MizzouRah]

Classy move Ben - you went a long way to restoring my faith in your ability to moderate this board.


I've always thought Ben has done an excellent job, but that thought was slipping pretty fast after the present incident - now I'm like DD on this one.

I would NEVER, EVER, want to moderate a forum, especially one as diverse as FOFC. :)


Todd

[Subby]

We should rename this place Front Office I Have Sand in My Vagina.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I had a nice long post mentally composed ... and realized (luckily before typing it) that doing so would actually have contradicted what I was going to say.

That kinda sucks.

[Suicane75]

Ben,
I was very happy this morning to wake up and see what I saw from you in this thread, and i'm not surprised it was here because i truly, no matter what was happening, thought you were a fair and good person who was just a bit stubborn, I think i can say the same for 90% of the people on this board, especially when things get heated. But people get more vitriolic over you because you're the Mod, which i realize is not a fun thing to be sometimes and as I said in our conversation yesterday, i agree with what you do an overwhelming portion of the time.

Saturday night was something that i'm sure everyone involved wishes we could go back and do things differently, maybe more level headed, you, me, cringer, sov, all of us. I'm leaving Shorty out because he was genuinly upset that I was leaving (I think he has a man crush on me or something).

Sunday wasn't pleasant for me at all as there was alot of venom aimed at you which didn't make happy, even if i did feel your decision was wrong. I thought our conversation Sunday morning was a very good in which you sincerely listened to what I had to say and I you, I probably ended it too early as I decided to go watch the Ravens/Giants game (you should probably ban me just for that :) ) but I felt like as angry as I was at you I didn't let that invade our conversation and as pissed off as you probably were at me you didn't let it affect us having a solid, yet honest discussion.

My intention was never to grandstand, although in posting the goodbye thread i'm sure part of it was to let people know exactly what Sovs initial suspension was for, something I knew you didn't want done. Perhaps taking it to another board would of been best, it just seemed like a ridiculous notion at the time to say goodbye to FOFC on the HFL board.

I'm glad this is over and I have more respect for you now than when this started because it does take a big man to admit that his decision was wrong. I love this place, i've been a lurker/poster on FOFC for years, in fact I lurked for so long because the community here was so knowledgable/funny/witty/entertaining that for a few years I never felt that need to post, as just reading the threads was entertainment enough for me thruought my day, that's how special I think this group is.

You're a good dude in an unenviable position who has to make decisions that sometimes will polarize the community, that you can also be talked to and questioned and in turn reverse a decision that you made for the better says alot about your character to me.

I hope this can all be put behind us and we can move on, I love this place and I like the people here, even the ones I think are nuts :D

Suicane

[WSUCougar]

Bravo, Suicane.

[Glengoyne]

Nicely done Ben. This saves me a PM, expressing my disappointment.

I believe you are one hell of a moderator SD, as you typically only step in when things/posters go too far and/or level personal attacks. I do believe that you have learned that you can't censor or control the discussion here. That is not why everyone around here has entrusted you with your responsibility. Over the couple of years I have been around here you have earned my respect and support. I haven't agreed with everything you have done, but certianly believe you got the lion's, or in your case the H.N.I.C.'s, share correct. I'm writing this off to a drunken binge on the weekend that impaired your otherwise good judgement. Now that you have sobered up, and learned your lesson, don't do it again. If you manage that you will continue to be the exceptional moderator and essentially the leader of this community.

Good Luck

[daedalus]

Ben should not be dictating to members what topics they comment on, period.Honestly, as far as what people think and post, I agree with you. When it comes to "please don't try to stir shit up for the sake of it" which was what I got from I found, I'm not.

[MIJB#19]

Locking up kingjerkoff's thread, I have no problem with since, unlike Matthijs, I have no positive impression of him.[HA]'s been assholish most of the time against me
Old sentiments towards SD boiled up. From negative came positive and this whole issue cleared that up for me, the response from SD makes old issues finally closed.

On HA having a positive impression, that's more because I'm a moron in thinking that everyone has something good in him. I've experienced positive things with HA to feel he's not only bad influence. Or maybe I'm just a pathetic guy who tries to be friends with everyone. :o But then, Hornsmaniac never won me over, so that can't be it...

[Icy]

Great post Suicane!!! i'm really glad to see all you talking this way now.

[Eaglesfan27]

Look, there is nothing sinister going on here. All I wanted was to keep from setting Fido off again, because I want an updated version of FOF Reporter. The ONLY reason that I didn't want the matter discussed publicly afterward because I know that he lurks here from time to time. Based on his past behavior, I have a pretty good idea that seeing such a discussion would have brought back up the thread in which he was criticized, and bringing back up said thread was/is a surefire way to pretty much assure that FOF Reporter is dead. I had a very specific standard for which posts I deleted and thread that I locked: if this continues, will it lead back to Fido discussion? There were some things that I let stay in the locked threads; that's why. Ultimately, I don't mind civilized discussion of my decisions, as was said above, but in this case, even civilized discussion would have brought back up the Fido drama--the very thing I was trying to prevent. That's why I did what I did. Nothing more. Nothing less. I just wanted the damn utility. I figured that, like any other of the "drama" situtions that have shown up, this one would die out once the weekend was over, get pushed to the bottom, and Fido would never have to see it.

Obviously, I was incorrect in that assessment.

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.

All accounts have been restored to their pre-Friday status, with the exception of sovereignstar. The fact remains that he posted while under suspension. Due to mitigating circumstances, I've reduced his punishment from banning to an extra 12 hours, and that time will expire at 7:00AM EST today.

I'm sorry. :(

--Ben

(EDITED FOR TWO MINOR TYPOS)

I haven't read the rest of this thread, yet. However, I just wanted to say I admire your decision to post this. We all make mistakes. It takes a real adult to admit them and rectify them if possible.

[Eaglesfan27]

Ben,
I was very happy this morning to wake up and see what I saw from you in this thread, and i'm not surprised it was here because i truly, no matter what was happening, thought you were a fair and good person who was just a bit stubborn, I think i can say the same for 90% of the people on this board, especially when things get heated. But people get more vitriolic over you because you're the Mod, which i realize is not a fun thing to be sometimes and as I said in our conversation yesterday, i agree with what you do an overwhelming portion of the time.

Saturday night was something that i'm sure everyone involved wishes we could go back and do things differently, maybe more level headed, you, me, cringer, sov, all of us. I'm leaving Shorty out because he was genuinly upset that I was leaving (I think he has a man crush on me or something).

Sunday wasn't pleasant for me at all as there was alot of venom aimed at you which didn't make happy, even if i did feel your decision was wrong. I thought our conversation Sunday morning was a very good in which you sincerely listened to what I had to say and I you, I probably ended it too early as I decided to go watch the Ravens/Giants game (you should probably ban me just for that :) ) but I felt like as angry as I was at you I didn't let that invade our conversation and as pissed off as you probably were at me you didn't let it affect us having a solid, yet honest discussion.

My intention was never to grandstand, although in posting the goodbye thread i'm sure part of it was to let people know exactly what Sovs initial suspension was for, something I knew you didn't want done. Perhaps taking it to another board would of been best, it just seemed like a ridiculous notion at the time to say goodbye to FOFC on the HFL board.

I'm glad this is over and I have more respect for you now than when this started because it does take a big man to admit that his decision was wrong. I love this place, i've been a lurker/poster on FOFC for years, in fact I lurked for so long because the community here was so knowledgable/funny/witty/entertaining that for a few years I never felt that need to post, as just reading the threads was entertainment enough for me thruought my day, that's how special I think this group is.

You're a good dude in an unenviable position who has to make decisions that sometimes will polarize the community, that you can also be talked to and questioned and in turn reverse a decision that you made for the better says alot about your character to me.

I hope this can all be put behind us and we can move on, I love this place and I like the people here, even the ones I think are nuts :D

Suicane
Very nice post. My admiration for you just went up too :)

[Franklinnoble]

Man. I KNEW I should have spent more time around here this weekend. :D

Nice move, Ben. Well done.

[GrantDawg]

Thats ok, but then it would be on them and not becuase of an issue. Like Ben said, he learned from this, not is coalescing to demands, but actually sees that perhaps he didnt handle this the best way possible. Thats what is wonderful about being an adult, being able to learn from your mistakes and move forward with new knowledge.

If some people hold a grudge than that is their own fault. Forgiveness must be given before it can be gotten. I think it is a beautiful thing and will make our communtiy stronger....utilities shmootilities, its us that make the FOFC this huge (i guess there is a game out there to that some of us like but...) its us that make it big.

We can come in here and tell stories about our lives with abbreviations, its us that can post pictures of our shaved heads in support of our father, its us who can post pictures of ourselves in our undies, its us who say prayers for eachother when something terrible happened or might, its FOFC that can smack eachother around a bit when we get drunk and start fights, its FOFC that can tell us how long to wait before calling the girl, its FOFC that can tell us what parts we need to make our new computer, its FOFC that can tell us why our political views are wrong, its FOFC that can let us trade games, and finally its FOFC that can bring all people of shapes sizes religions ages together. That is what the FOFC is about.....in essence we have transcended utilities and, no offense Jim, a game.....were a family. This was just simply, our Holiday squabble.
That was the best post Flasch ever posted on this board. I can read it and understand it. He even used paragraphs! Nicely done.

[cuervo72]

Oh, Sov is gone too? In that case, Jeeber, I think it would be acceptable for you to PM some certain pics then. I don't think that could hurt anything, right?

[daedalus]

On HA having a positive impression, that's more because I'm a moron in thinking that everyone has something good in him. I've experienced positive things with HA to feel he's not only bad influence. Or maybe I'm just a pathetic guy who tries to be friends with everyone. :o But then, Hornsmaniac never won me over, so that can't be it...Sorry, Matthijs, that comment wasn't meant as a knock against you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a moron as I consider you to be a very positive person toward everyone (at least based on what I have seen here). I simply don't share your positive sentiment toward Hell Atlantic.

[sachmo71]

That was the best post Flasch ever posted on this board. I can read it and understand it. He even used paragraphs! Nicely done.


That should be enough to get him off of the ignore list!

[ISiddiqui]

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.

All accounts have been restored to their pre-Friday status, with the exception of sovereignstar. The fact remains that he posted while under suspension. Due to mitigating circumstances, I've reduced his punishment from banning to an extra 12 hours, and that time will expire at 7:00AM EST today.

Here, Here! I applaud the decision and the post.

Oh, and before I forget... GROUP HUG! ;)

[GrantDawg]

Nice post Skydog and Suicane. Classy moves on both of your parts. I think people need to understand that a mod on any board is going to have to act as a dictator in one way or another. Some just are more oppresive than others. If you don't believe that, just try it. Open a board and get some members there (not always and easy thing). Then give them no limits on speech. See how long the board last. It would take no time to become another "YOU SUCK DUDZ" message board that no one would enjoy visiting. The best a moderator can do is be as gentle as he can, and no when to pour on the heavy hand.

In this case, Ben messed up. He went heavy handed to soon (though I can sort of understand why. What kind of juvenile idiots get so worked up about someone not releasing a FREE program in the time frame they want? Just goes to show, no good deed goes unpunished). I never doubted, though, Ben would be man enough to right any real wrongs. There aren't many mods out there (or people in general) that would, but I know Ben is one of them.

As for those who have "left." I'm sorry to see you go. But if it were between them leaving and Ben losing his mod position, it is a complete no brainer. Bye guys, nice knowing ya. Ben may not be perfect, but he is the only man for this job. As much as I respect many on this board, I can't think of anyone that has a better temperment to handle this job. I'm glad Ben is here, I'm glad this board is here, and I look forward to getting all this behind us so we can continue annoying each other in other ways.

[Franklinnoble]

Hey, Ben... since you're feeling so magnanimous about your (relatively few) mistakes as a moderator, don't you think now would be a good time to spread a little holiday cheer, and return the QOTM?

Pretty please?







(Hey, I have to try...)

[dawgfan]

Ben, thank you for reconsidering your decisions and allowing this discussion to happen, and thank you for your apology. You 'da man...

[GrantDawg]

Hey, Ben... since you're feeling so magnanimous about your (relatively few) mistakes as a moderator, don't you think now would be a good time to spread a little holiday cheer, and return the QOTM?

Pretty please?







(Hey, I have to try...)
Why? He is fixing mistakes, not reversing the best desicion he ever made.

[Franklinnoble]

Why? He is fixing mistakes, not reversing the best desicion he ever made.

Hater.

I think the QOTM should be an optional component. So, if you don't like it, you don't have to see it.

[Cringer]

SkyDog, I thought of doing this via PM but then again that would be rather hypocritical of me since I made this public in the first place. I know you disagreed with my methods, and thought of it as more of an attention grabbing tactic. It was not done for that reason to me, I thought of it as the more effective way in this case. Some may agree, some may disagree with me on this point, but that is going to happen with many things and I am fine with that part of it.

I am happy to read your decision, and first and foremost I hope there are no hard feelings between us. As I said earlier in this thread, I have never much looked at you as The Man, but just one of the top posters here. I have always enjoyed reading about your testing of FOF and TCY, and have found it useful in the past many times. I never called for a new Moderator, and would not do so. As many people have said, no man is perfect. I thank you for listening, which is not something many people would do when they start out feeling they are 100% correct in their actions. That is a hard thing to do, as I think most of us know.

There is not much else I can say here, I think Suicane pretty much summed up a lot of my feelings in his post, so I will just say that I agree with much of what he has said there.

And ISiddiqui has beaten me to it, I think it's time for a group hug.

[Anthony]

goddamit suicane - are you a girl or a boy. what's the fucking story?

[Anthony]

Sorry, Matthijs, that comment wasn't meant as a knock against you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a moron as I consider you to be a very positive person toward everyone (at least based on what I have seen here). I simply don't share your positive sentiment toward Hell Atlantic.

don't make me have to react. i don't want to ruin the good feelings in this thread by shitting on you and your feeling of self-worth.

nevertheless, that's strike one.

[MikeVic]

Oh, Sov is gone too? In that case, Jeeber, I think it would be acceptable for you to PM some certain pics then. I don't think that could hurt anything, right?


Hey hey. I want too!!

[Butter]

I like drama as much as the next guy, but whenever any of this shit happens, I'm always about 95% lost about what ANY of it means.

So, fill in your own since I don't know what the hell is going on:

So I guess it's good that ______________________. I think that SkyDog___________________.
I love it when __________________ kicks ________________ in the __________________. That's always __________________. Oh, and Michigan sucks.

[cthomer5000]

Here's the thing - and this is coming from someone who thinks SD should be praised for doing such a thankless job so conscientiously, and would not want him replaced - the "my moderation decisions cannot be discussed publicly" stance is just plain wrong. He continually locks/deletes threads that criticize his decisions, meanwhile talking out of the other side of his mouth that all opinions are welcome here as long as they are stated in a civil manner. Quieting public dissention is rule #1 in the dictator's guide to keeping power. Not that I think SD is trying to truly trying to be a dictator here, but that particular policy certainly smacks of it. While I agree wholeheartedly that what Ben brings to this board as a moderator and member far outweighs the negative, I think that this policy does the board more harm than good, especially when it encourages valued members to leave.

Ben, whether you want it to be the case or not, moderation decisions are a legitimate topic of discussion. They are part of what happens in our community, and we should be able to express dissenting opinions, if we truly want an open forum.
This perfectly states my opinion. I don't want to be told we cannot discusss moderation decisions, I simply don't think that's reasonable.

[Fonzie]

I love Mad-Libs! Here's my entry:


So I guess it's good that banana. I think that SkyDog belches sometimes. I love it when coffee cup kicks cow in the Richard Simmons . That's always infected. Oh, and papercuts suck.

Edit: I don't actually hate Michigan, so I changed the last sentence.

[sachmo71]

I love Mad-Libs! Here's my entry:


So I guess it's good that banana. I think that SkyDog belches sometimes. I love it when coffee cup kicks cow in the Richard Simmons . That's always infected. Oh, and papercuts suck.

Edit: I don't actually hate Michigan, so I changed the last sentence.

Mmmm...nice. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[GrantDawg]

This perfectly states my opinion. I don't want to be told we cannot discusss moderation decisions, I simply don't think that's reasonable.I'm in the middle on this. I don't think all discussion should be eliminated, but I also don't think EVERY decision requires discussion, and it should be limited to one or two threads and not a board-jack. I can understand limirs because this could easily become the "Skydog job" message board, which would suck. AND, unpopular decisions must be made, and whatever the decision, there are going to be people upset. Some people are not mature enough to let things go, so there has to be an end put somewhere. This time it was too far, but other times it has been just right (IMHO, of course others don't agree).

Ps. also, your first move in challenging a decision should be in private to Skydog. That will always be better with much less drama than making a thread. Of course, some people really do just want the attention.

[Anthony]

the guy apologized and made amends as much as he could. why is there still a debate going on? the case is closed and while mistakes were made on both sides of the board gravity still exists and the earth will still revolve around the sun.

[scooper]

I'll play too.

So I guess it's good that Michigan sucks. I think that SkyDog knows Michigan sucks.
I love it when Any team kicks Lloyd Carr in the Man boobs. That's always a good indication that Michigan sucks. Oh, and Michigan sucks.


We have a moderator?

[Samdari]

I'm in the middle on this. I don't think all discussion should be eliminated, but I also don't think EVERY decision requires discussion, and it should be limited to one or two threads and not a board-jack. I can understand limirs because this could easily become the "Skydog job" message board, which would suck. AND, unpopular decisions must be made, and whatever the decision, there are going to be people upset. Some people are not mature enough to let things go, so there has to be an end put somewhere. This time it was too far, but other times it has been just right (IMHO, of course others don't agree).

Ps. also, your first move in challenging a decision should be in private to Skydog. That will always be better with much less drama than making a thread. Of course, some people really do just want the attention.

Keep in mind, I am not saying every moderation decision should be a group effort. I am not trying to make SkyDog actually change his decisions based on the things said in such a discussion. I know its a tough job, I would not want it, and I have never actually been truly offended at any of his moderation decisions. What I detest is the "back room justice" feel of discipline around here (I guess we disagree vehemently here). Everything handled in private and secret just rubs me the wrong way - and in fact makes this board more "SkyDog Central" than if free discussions of the moderating decisions were allowed.

Note that by "free disccussion" I am not advocating a free for all, every post a flame attitude - people should be held to the same standards of civility in threads discussing mod decisions that they are in other discussions, and risk the same penalties for crossing the line. But, I think there is nothing wrong with asking Ben to explain his reasoning behind such actions, and everyone else being allowed to criticize such decisions publicly. Clearly, the "these things are handled in private" attitude is hurting the board (in loss of good content adding members) more than it is helping at this point.

[GrantDawg]

What I detest is the "back room justice" feel of discipline around here (I guess we disagree vehemently here). Everything handled in private and secret just rubs me the wrong way - and in fact makes this board more "SkyDog Central" than if free discussions of the moderating decisions were allowed.

No, I dont disagree except that "everything" is done that way. Most of Skydogs decisions have been very publically done. This was more the exception than the rule. I think it is because the few times most of things done were behind the scenes sticks in people's minds more than they very public things. Human nature, I guess.

[Samdari]

No, I dont disagree except that "everything" is done that way. Most of Skydogs decisions have been very publically done. This was more the exception than the rule. I think it is because the few times most of things done were behind the scenes sticks in people's minds more than they very public things. Human nature, I guess.

He has repeatedly asked that anyone wanting to comment/question on such a decision do so in IM's, and often closed threads where people wish to discuss. This is the first time I can remember any discussion of moderation not being immediately quashed.

[Tigercat]

fofc wordbank:
dola
trout
colosal squid
hornsmaniac
patriotic undies
come back more powerful than you can possibly imagine

So I guess it's good that dola. I think that SkyDog trout.
I love it when colosal squid kicks hornsmaniac in the patriotic undies. That's always come back more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[Fonzie]

fofc wordbank:
dola
trout
colosal squid
hornsmaniac
patriotic undies
come back more powerful than you can possibly imagine

So I guess it's good that dola. I think that SkyDog trout.
I love it when colosal squid kicks hornsmaniac in the patriotic undies. That's always come back more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

That's more like it.

Less yappin', more Mad-Libs! ;)

[GrantDawg]

He has repeatedly asked that anyone wanting to comment/question on such a decision do so in IM's, and often closed threads where people wish to discuss. This is the first time I can remember any discussion of moderation not being immediately quashed.
Then you haven't been around or don't have a good memory. I remember many of these threads, and remember why they have been limited.

[Samdari]

Then you haven't been around or don't have a good memory. I remember many of these threads, and remember why they have been limited.

Well?

[GrantDawg]

Well?
Deep subject. Well, what? Examples? Many of these situations played out on the old board, but the dramas (very plural) around Hornsmaniac comes to mind. Not to mention that some that were having the pissies in this situation were the same people that caused such a stink then (and I'm pretty sure that at least one still doesn't believe Horns should have been banned).

[Samdari]

Deep subject. Well, what? Examples? Many of these situations played out on the old board, but the dramas (very plural) around Hornsmaniac comes to mind. Not to mention that some that were having the pissies in this situation were the same people that caused such a stink then (and I'm pretty sure that at least one still doesn't believe Horns should have been banned).

Yes, I am looking for examples of threads where people discussed SkyDog's moderation decisions and did not close them with the explanation that such discussions were only acceptable via PM.

[GrantDawg]

Yes, I am looking for examples of threads where people discussed SkyDog's moderation decisions and did not close them with the explanation that such discussions were only acceptable via PM.
Again, Hornsmaniac dramas, the wigs dramas, threads about QOTM, ect, ect, ect. There have been many threads, many discussions, and all beaten like a dead horse.

[Blackadar]

Deep subject. Well, what? Examples? Many of these situations played out on the old board, but the dramas (very plural) around Hornsmaniac comes to mind. Not to mention that some that were having the pissies in this situation were the same people that caused such a stink then (and I'm pretty sure that at least one still doesn't believe Horns should have been banned).

Horns. Wignifty. Wignasty. Chubby. The Nazi-flag guy (drawing a blank on the name, though I shouldn't). Styx. How many more do you need?

[Samdari]

Further public discussion of this matter will be looked on as just trolling for more controversy, and dealt with accordingly. If more detailed explanation is needed, all civil contacts via PM or e-mail will be responded to in kind.

This is the kind of crap I am referring to.

Orders not to comment on a particular topic. And it was posted yesterday.

[kcchief19]

Frankly, I think Ben's being too hard on himself. I understand that reasons he did what he did -- it was with the best interest of the board at heart. Perhaps leaving a "bitch session" thread open would have allowed everyone to vent their frustrations and get back to normal, perhaps not. I think Ben's only mistake was trying to clamp down completely and not let the situation run its course -- but that is 20/20 hindsight. I have no doubt he did what he thought was best.

If you don't like it, you don't like Ben's change of heart and you don't like this moderation, my suggestion is this: hit the bricks. This forum is a great place to have fun, but if you're not having fun why come here? I stopped coming here and posting for a while when political threads were non-stop and 9 out of 10 threads pissed me off. If you're not having fun and the only contribution you can make is to cause trouble, then get a life for Christmas and go do something else.

Don't take this place so seriously -- it's supposed to be fun, god damn it. :)

[Ben E Lou]

Well?Ok. I'll bite.


24-hour discussion on a moderating decision, closed when completely off-topic, out of hand, and finished: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=17896&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=17896&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=9578&page=3&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=9578&page=3&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=8498&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=8498&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=30469&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=30469&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=24792&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=24792&highlight=skydog+dictator)

That's five right there, and there are actually many, many more. I just found these by searching on the words "SkyDog" and "dictator." :p

EDIT: (bad format in WYSIWYG) Do a search on "SkyDog suspension" and you'll see how many of those threads are discussion moderating decisions, and how few of them were ever closed.

I think if you do a few more searches with my name and words like "Banned," "suspension," "suspended," etc., you'll be surprised to see how many of them were never, ever closed.

[Blackadar]

This is the kind of crap I am referring to.

Orders not to comment on a particular topic. And it was posted yesterday.

Sam, I had to do the same thing from time to time. At some point, you have to ask people to take it offline and that it's not a subject for discussion.

I now remember the Nazi-flag: Bragg. I had to do the EXACT same thing - end all discussion - because people did not understand my reasoning for letting him stay and people kept baiting and inflaming the situation. It's done rarely, but as a moderator you do have to finally put your foot down and tell people to stfu.

[Fonzie]

Don't take this place so seriously -- it's supposed to be fun, god damn it. :)

Well said. And in keeping with the spirit of your post I encourage everyone to complete the Mad-Lib posted above. :p

[Samdari]

Ok. I'll bite.


24-hour discussion on a moderating decision, closed when completely off-topic, out of hand, and finished: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=17896&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=17896&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=9578&page=3&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=9578&page=3&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=8498&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=8498&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=30469&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=30469&page=1&pp=50&highlight=skydog+dictator)

discussion on a moderating decision, never closed:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=24792&highlight=skydog+dictator (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=24792&highlight=skydog+dictator)

That's five right there, and there are actually many, many more. I just found these by searching on the words "SkyDog" and "dictator." :p

EDIT: (bad format in WYSIWYG) Do a search on "SkyDog suspension" and you'll see how many of those threads are discussion moderating decisions, and how few of them were ever closed.

I think if you do a few more searches with my name and words like "Banned," "suspension," "suspended," etc., you'll be surprised to see how many of them were never, ever closed.

I stand corrected on "every"

EDIT: That does not change the fact that this (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showpost.php?p=641601&postcount=44) post very clearly spells out that you think discussion of moderating decisions (expecially those involving disciplinary action) should be done in back rooms and secret channels rather than in public forums.

One issue where you are WAY off base in that post is the statement, "When a person complains publicly about a modding decision, I only assume that they're grandstanding anyway." When a someone who was not in any way involved in some sort of controversy comes in and sees the aftermath from something as exciting as this weekend, and who is known NOT to be a troll, disagrees with a disciplinary decision, their public comments should not be seen as grandstanding.

You say that you would listen to such a person's comments if they were made privately but they are grandstanding if made publicly? That is something you simply cannot assume. It is impossible for such a person to simply have an opinion, not an agenda? Wanting it to be expressed publicly automatically makes it grandstanding, it is impossible for them simply to detest the "back room justice" vibe given off by posts such as you made above? You could not possibly be more off base than with that comment.

That said, I will leave it at that. I should not be so vehement, as the only mod decision of yours I truly have disagreed with is the closing of topics related to your decisions, and consider myself ulikely to end up in the Dark Jedi justice system. Methinks you are a bit thin skinned there, and have a very different standard of what is considered trolling when people are talking about you than when they are talking about others.

[sterlingice]

Well?
It's a hole in the ground that people get water out of. But that's not important now.

SI

[Flasch186]

Frankly, I think Ben's being too hard on himself. I understand that reasons he did what he did -- it was with the best interest of the board at heart. Perhaps leaving a "bitch session" thread open would have allowed everyone to vent their frustrations and get back to normal, perhaps not. I think Ben's only mistake was trying to clamp down completely and not let the situation run its course -- but that is 20/20 hindsight. I have no doubt he did what he thought was best.

If you don't like it, you don't like Ben's change of heart and you don't like this moderation, my suggestion is this: hit the bricks. This forum is a great place to have fun, but if you're not having fun why come here? I stopped coming here and posting for a while when political threads were non-stop and 9 out of 10 threads pissed me off. If you're not having fun and the only contribution you can make is to cause trouble, then get a life for Christmas and go do something else.

Don't take this place so seriously -- it's supposed to be fun, god damn it. :)


Luckily most political threads have something in the title about, say, politics. I enjoy talking politics and I enjoy this board so lucky me, that there are some people like me too. If youre not, then great, at least you have less threads to get bored in.

[sabotai]

As for those who have "left." I'm sorry to see you go. But if it were between them leaving and Ben losing his mod position

With all due respect, I think this statement pretty much tells me you don't understand what our problem was. It's not that we wanted SkyDog replaced (see, I'm back too without a mod change), it's that we felt that SD went way over the line in this case and we didn't feel comfortable coming here unless the situation changed. It did, now we're here.

(When I said I wouldn't come back until there was a change, that's what I meant. SD realized he went too far, problem solved. Much respect to him for that. I think I have agreed with a good 95% of the decisions SD has made.)

And Blackie, how could you forget Braggggggggggggg? Of course, the difference in the situations in that you had to stop it after a lot of talk about it. In this case, SD didn't allow ANY talk.

Bah, it's Madlibs time....

So I guess it's good that it kills on contact. I think that SkyDog barks at the moon.
I love it when the NFL kicks a Pearl Jam concert DVD bootleg in the olfactory system. That's always money. Oh, and Michigan sucks.

[WSUCougar]

It's a hole in the ground that people get water out of. But that's not important now.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
Actually, I thought SI's post was hilarious...
and I've been off the glue for quite some time now...

[Fonzie]

Actually, I thought SI's post was hilarious...
and I've been off the glue for quite some time now...

fff -

See Airplane! and their exchange may make a little more sense.

[fantastic flying froggies]

fff -

See Airplane! and their exchange may make a little more sense.
Doh!
one of my cult movies and it just completely flew over my head...

And to think I'd resisted posting in this thread until then...:rolleyes:

thanks for rubbing my face in it Fonz...;)

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and incidentally, in the midst of all of this, I realized late yesterday that I am not receiving any e-mails on my bellsouth account--the one that most of you have and the one that my PM/Message notifications come to from this board. I've read all my PM's, but if any of you e-mail me after around 3:45AM Sunday (the last bellsouth e-mail I received), then I haven't seen it yet. Until you hear otherwise, use the ben AT benelou.com to e-mail me (but once you hear otherwise, go back to benlewis AT bellsouth.net, because I only check the benelou e-mail from my home desktop machine. The bellsouth one is my main account, and gets checked every minute from home and the office).

--Ben:mad: Well, my bellsouth.net account is working now. However, all e-mails to that address during the down time appear to have been lost for good. So if you sent me an e-mail anytime between 3:45AM on Sunday and 3:00pm today, it is gone for good. Please re-send if it is something you feel a need that I see.

--Ben

[sterlingice]

Doh!
one of my cult movies and it just completely flew over my head...

And to think I'd resisted posting in this thread until then...:rolleyes:

thanks for rubbing my face in it Fonz...;)
Don't worry, fff. I've missed more jokes on this board than most people have read ;)

SI

[Fonzie]

Doh!
one of my cult movies and it just completely flew over my head...

And to think I'd resisted posting in this thread until then...:rolleyes:

thanks for rubbing my face in it Fonz...;)

No problemo. ;)

[DaddyTorgo]

glad that I saved my posting until I'd read this entire massive thread. Hopefully now all the drama and the hurt feelings of our "holiday fight" can be put behind us now and we can...return to the happy messageboard community that I have come to value as my homepage, and as my internet-home.

SD: Thank you for saying what you said. It takes a big man to post what you did, a bigger man than many of us probably are (myself included).

Suicane: Dola to you for your post. Let the healing continue brother-man.

sabatoi: glad to see you back as well.

Can we have a group community-hug tonight at say...9pm EST?? :)

[korme]

SD, you just (well for you, you probably think it's unfortunate) won me back with this. Nice job and it was big of you to admit you overreacted, and it all really got out of hand. Thanks.

I stayed logged out for over 24 hours, that's got to be a record or something.

Oh, and Suicane:

I'm leaving Shorty out because he was genuinly upset that I was leaving (I think he has a man crush on me or something).

xoxoxoxo

[korme]

And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

http://www.jbl.ootp-online.com/host/skydog.jpg

[Flasch186]

and thus Team Shorty remains <breathes deeply>

BEST DRAFT PICK EVER = FLASCH186

[dawgfan]

[QUOTE=Shorty3281]And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

[shorty posted a juvinille joke picture of SkyDog's head on a Nazi body]

Um, that's not cool Shorty. The man apologized - move on and quit with the petty low-blows.

[sachmo71]

And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

http://www.jbl.ootp-online.com/host/skydog.jpg


That guy's got a big head! It's like an orange on a toothpick!

[Anthony]

SD, you just (well for you, you probably think it's unfortunate) won me back with this. Nice job and it was big of you to admit you overreacted, and it all really got out of hand. Thanks.

I stayed logged out for over 24 hours, that's got to be a record or something.

Oh, and Suicane:


xoxoxoxo

who you trying to kid - you weren't gonna walk away from FOFC. that was probably the weakest resignation i've ever seen, i gave you like 2 days tops.

[korme]

[QUOTE=Shorty3281]And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

[shorty posted a juvinille joke picture of SkyDog's head on a Nazi body]

Um, that's not cool Shorty. The man apologized - move on and quit with the petty low-blows.
dude?

i thought it was funny. hence 'dicktater' and 'iz'...

wow... it's a joke man. how can you not laugh? i almost put the lil mustache on there too/

[korme]

who you trying to kid - you weren't gonna walk away from FOFC. that was probably the weakest resignation i've ever seen, i gave you like 2 days tops.
that's cool

[sovereignstar]

dude?

i thought it was funny. hence 'dicktater' and 'iz'...

wow... it's a joke man. how can you not laugh? i almost put the lil mustache on there too/

If I don't think that something you did is funny I just imagine you within a few yards range of a Mountain Dew can.

[Franklinnoble]

And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

http://www.jbl.ootp-online.com/host/skydog.jpg

Nice. :D

[dawgfan]

dude?

i thought it was funny. hence 'dicktater' and 'iz'...

wow... it's a joke man. how can you not laugh? i almost put the lil mustache on there too/

I understand the sentiment, but something about Nazi uniforms I just have no tolerance for, even if it's a joke (and I fully understood it was a joke).

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'll play too.

So I guess it's good that Michigan sucks. I think that SkyDog knows Michigan sucks.
I love it when Any team kicks Lloyd Carr in the Man boobs. That's always a good indication that Michigan sucks. Oh, and Michigan sucks.


We have a moderator?

Bah! Typical Buckeye nonsense. This thread was all about serious stuff and reonciliation and stuff like that. And here it comes with all the hate from the Butterman and Pooper Scooper. Screw you guys and stuff! This thread was about being a man and group hugs and stuff and you all turned it into a thread of hate, lies, and mischief! Screw you guys. Oh, and THE Ohio State sucks. :D

[Bubba Wheels]

And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

http://www.jbl.ootp-online.com/host/skydog.jpg

I like the color, lose the pockets.

[MizzouRah]

And lastly, my final thoughts on this matter:

http://www.jbl.ootp-online.com/host/skydog.jpg

Is that from a lost episode of Hogan's Heros?


Todd

[Driftwood]

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.



Ahhh, this brings back memories...Good to see I can leave for a year and know that when I pop back in things will pick up just where they left off :rolleyes:

[Flasch186]

Ahhh, this brings back memories...Good to see I can leave for a year and know that when I pop back in things will pick up just where they left off :rolleyes:


if one leaves for a year why come back with a negative impact from the start? seems silly to me, no offense.

[Driftwood]

Because the cable is out :)

[sterlingice]

I understand the sentiment, but something about Nazi uniforms I just have no tolerance for, even if it's a joke (and I fully understood it was a joke). Well, clearly you've got some *crazy* bias against the Nazis. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Nelson: "You wrecked Hitler's car! What did he ever do to you."

SI

[Franklinnoble]

Ahhh, this brings back memories...Good to see I can leave for a year and know that when I pop back in things will pick up just where they left off :rolleyes:

Your registration date is June of this year.

Were you absent for a dog year, maybe?

[Fonzie]

Bah! Typical Buckeye nonsense. This thread was all about serious stuff and reonciliation and stuff like that. And here it comes with all the hate from the Butterman and Pooper Scooper. Screw you guys and stuff! This thread was about being a man and group hugs and stuff and you all turned it into a thread of hate, lies, and mischief! Screw you guys. Oh, and THE Ohio State sucks. :D

I tried to gently refocus this thread on Mad-Libs, but didn't get quite enough momentum. :(

[Driftwood]

What I find amusing is that after all this time, after numerous incidents of heavy-handedness and creating a playing field where some members can get away with anything and others are slapped down for the slightest offense, after all that some of you think everything will change because Skydog apologized once.

In the immortal words of Ghandi, suckers

[Fonzie]

What I find amusing is that after all this time, after numerous incidents of heavy-handedness and creating a playing field where some members can get away with anything and others are slapped down for the slightest offense, after all that some of you think everything will change because Skydog apologized once.

In the immortal words of Ghandi, suckers

Thanks for your input.

[Driftwood]

Just keepin' it real

[Neuqua]

let's just all be happy now.

:)

[Chubby]

Didn't have time to read through the whole love fest, but how many people were threatening to leave? How many would have stayed away for more than two days? No offense intended to anyone who said they were leaving due to this, but Skydog was right on with his actions and everyone who posted about leaving or needing clarification was most definitely grandstanding.

It was obvious from reading between the lines of any of the locked threads of what happened and you guys needed no explanation of why, who, how, or what happened. (I know I am not on here as often as any of the main characters and I don't know everyone as well as any of the main characters but I could have told you exactly what happened) It is too bad that Skydog didn't stick to his guns and uphold the suspensions and maybe this same shit wouldn't happen again in two weeks.
His actions were done solely to suckup to Fido and you think this is right?

[panerd]

Didn't have time to read through the whole love fest, but how many people were threatening to leave? How many would have stayed away for more than two days? No offense intended to anyone who said they were leaving due to this, but Skydog was right on with his actions and everyone who posted about leaving or needing clarification was most definitely grandstanding.

It was obvious from reading between the lines of any of the locked threads of what happened and you guys needed no explanation of why, who, how, or what happened. (I know I am not on here as often as any of the main characters and I don't know everyone as well as any of the main characters but I could have told you exactly what happened) It is too bad that Skydog didn't stick to his guns and uphold the suspensions and maybe this same shit wouldn't happen again in two weeks.

[Chubby]

ROFLMBAO.

Just did a little checking. "BlingBlingKillaz" was banned on June 7th. "Driftwood" registered on June 8th....with the identical IP address as BBK, an IP address that is shared by no other user on this board.

Buh-Bye.
Heh, damn people are dumb (driftwood/whoever it is)

[Ben E Lou]

Just keepin' it realROFLMBAO.

Just did a little checking. "BlingBlingKilla" was given the final boot on June 7th, 2004. "Driftwood" registered on June 8th, 2004.....with the identical IP address as BBK......an IP address that is shared by no other user on this board.


Buh-Bye.

[DaddyTorgo]

is BlingBling notorious?? Did I miss something? And why must people come in here and try to stir up tensions in our happy home when we've all mended fences??

[digamma]

is BlingBling notorious?? Did I miss something? And why must people come in here and try to stir up tensions in our happy home when we've all mended fences??
BlingBling was the troll who was ghost banned. He could post, but his posts wouldn't show up in threads. The only problem was on the forum screen it would show up that he was the last to post in a thread. Several people (me included) didn't know that ghost banning was a forum feature and wondered out loud if there was a problem with the forum--which ruined the ghost banning. He had to be banned for real.

[DaddyTorgo]

BlingBling was the troll who was ghost banned. He could post, but his posts wouldn't show up in threads. The only problem was on the forum screen it would show up that he was the last to post in a thread. Several people (me included) didn't know that ghost banning was a forum feature and wondered out loud if there was a problem with the forum--which ruined the ghost banning. He had to be banned for real.
So did SD ghost-ban him so that the HNIC could just laugh at his futile attempts to post? Cuz that would be really hilarious.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh, damn people are dumb (driftwood/whoever it is)To clarify (and I edited my post to reflect), it was "BlingBlingKilla" that got the boot on the 7th. "BlingBlingKillazz" (also sharing the identical and unique IP address with "Driftwood") was also banned right around then. "BlingBlingKillaz," however, never bothered to post, and therefore slipped under the radar, but considering that account registered on the same day as "BlingBlingKillazz," I feel pretty good about banning that one right now as well. Sorry that I got all of the names confused, but, uh, I think y'all can understand why... :p

[Ben E Lou]

is BlingBling notorious??Not really. Just a pretty unimaginative troll. Here's a typical BBK thread: http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?p=479868#post479868

[panerd]

His actions were done solely to suckup to Fido and you think this is right?

Ah, everything's out or order here. No, I don't really have an opinion on the original suspension and I am sure a lot of people thought it was unjustifed. But Skydog must of said about 500 f-in times to please contact him in private if people had concerns and instead they kept starting up new threads. I kept checking back in for the drama, but thought it was pretty obvious that all they were doing was pissing him off. Anyways my only card in any of this is all the people who were claiming to leave. I am 100% certain that every one of them would have returned. And as a person who has to deal with adolescents everyday (like Skydog also) sometimes they just have to be put in line.

[Chubby]

Ah, everything's out or order here. No, I don't really have an opinion on the original suspension and I am sure a lot of people thought it was unjustifed. But Skydog must of said about 500 f-in times to please contact him in private if people had concerns and instead they kept starting up new threads. I kept checking back in for the drama, but thought it was pretty obvious that all they were doing was pissing him off. Anyways my only card in any of this is all the people who were claiming to leave. I am 100% certain that every one of them would have returned. And as a person who has to deal with adolescents everyday (like Skydog also) sometimes they just have to be put in line.

this will prob get put out of order too :(

I can assure you (as I wasn't online when the shit hit the fan) that some people were NOT just doing it to piss him off.

With the whole kids thing. Yes, they need to be put in line but you have to know how to do it. Saying "you're not allowed to talk about it" just makes it worse instead of running it's course (not trying to beat a deadhorse as ben has apologized for that, just why I disagree with that course of action)

[Draft Dodger]

To clarify (and I edited my post to reflect), it was "BlingBlingKilla" that got the boot on the 7th. "BlingBlingKillazz" (also sharing the identical and unique IP address with "Driftwood") was also banned right around then. "BlingBlingKillaz," however, never bothered to post, and therefore slipped under the radar, but considering that account registered on the same day as "BlingBlingKillazz," I feel pretty good about banning that one right now as well. Sorry that I got all of the names confused, but, uh, I think y'all can understand why... :p

so, according to SD, BBK got booted on 12/07. BBKZZ (same IP as DW) also got banned. BBKZ didn't post, so SD never banned him, but BBKZZ and BBK both were banned, so now SD is saying RIP to BBKZ along with DW.

[DaddyTorgo]

hey...the JLo post was legit. Crude, but a legit point. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ben E Lou]

BBK's final three posts at FOFC (and they pretty much reflect his first few dozen as well....)

<table class="tborder" style="margin: 4px 0px;" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td class="thead" style="font-weight: normal;"> 06-07-2004, 10:36 PM </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Replies: 50
images/styles/yellow/statusicon/thread_hot.gif I don't get any sex (showthread.php?t=26441)
Views: 667
Posted By BlingBlingKilla (member.php?u=3533)
I aint seen pussy in so long Id throw stones at it (showthread.php?p=488530#post488530)

I aint seen pussy in so long Id throw stones at it

</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <table class="tborder" style="margin: 4px 0px;" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="thead" style="font-weight: normal;"> Forum: General Discussion (forumdisplay.php?f=6) images/styles/yellow/statusicon/post_old.gif 06-07-2004, 02:09 AM </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Replies: 82
images/styles/yellow/statusicon/thread_hot.gif How could you not root for calgary tonight? (showthread.php?t=26356)
Views: 790
Posted By BlingBlingKilla (member.php?u=3533)
How on earth can they play hockey? Its freakin... (showthread.php?p=487663#post487663)

How on earth can they play hockey? Its freakin 100% in the shade!

</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <table class="tborder" style="margin: 4px 0px;" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="thead" style="font-weight: normal;"> Forum: General Discussion (forumdisplay.php?f=6) images/styles/yellow/statusicon/post_old.gif 06-07-2004, 02:07 AM </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Replies: 31
images/styles/yellow/statusicon/thread_hot.gif J-Lo Gets Hitched Again (showthread.php?t=26374)
Views: 505
Posted By BlingBlingKilla (member.php?u=3533)
I bet J-Lo has to endure anal sex with every guy... (showthread.php?p=487661#post487661)

I bet J-Lo has to endure anal sex with every guy she hooks up with. I mean theyre only dating her ass, so whats the point in doing anything else?

</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Fonzie]

so, according to SD, BBK got booted on 12/07. BBKZZ (same IP as DW) also got banned. BBKZ didn't post, so SD never banned him, but BBKZZ and BBK both were banned, so now SD is saying RIP to BBKZ along with DW.

That's making my head spin.

I could really use a diagram - where's flere?

[sovereignstar]

Anyone find Driftwood's posts in this thread a little ironic?

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=27548&page=2&pp=50

[sabotai]

Anyways my only card in any of this is all the people who were claiming to leave. I am 100% certain that every one of them would have returned.

If SkyDog did not apologize, I was not going to return.

It is too bad that Skydog didn't stick to his guns and uphold the suspensions and maybe this same shit wouldn't happen again in two weeks.

This "shit" would most definatly would have happened again if SD stuck to his guns. It's pretty clear that you have no idea what happened. SD tried to supress any mention of what someone said about Fido in the off chance that Fido would see it and decide to never make/update his utilites again (a stance which he currently holds, btw). It is inevitable that someone would have said something bad about Fido again, and the whole situation would have repeated itself, because there was no way for anyone to know that bad things being said about Fido was against the rules.

When I got home this afternoon from work, I had no intentions whatsoever of coming to FOFC. The only reason I did was because a thread on the eNFL board was talking about a huge bug that was found. So I came here to see what the uproar was about and to see if Jim had responded. That's when I saw this long thread titled Moderation and was curious.

If this "bug" never came to light on the eNFL boards or the FOFL boards (they also have a thread on it I would have seen), chances are I would not be here at all right now.

That's all I'll say on this as I think I've said all I could. If you want to keep making assertions that you know 100% what I would and would not have done, go ahead. I don't care.

[Ben E Lou]

so, according to SD, BBK got booted on 12/07. BBKZZ (same IP as DW) also got banned. BBKZ didn't post, so SD never banned him, but BBKZZ and BBK both were banned, so now SD is saying RIP to BBKZ along with DW.You pretty much nailed it. ;)

[Craptacular]

How 'bout a Fresca?

[Buccaneer]

What I find ironic and sad is that in the act of protecting Fido, his name has now been publically dragged through the mud even more. That's human nature, I guess.

[Chubby]

What I find ironic and sad is that in the act of protecting Fido, his name has now been publically dragged through the mud even more. That's human nature, I guess.
how was he protecting fido? he was protecting the possibility of getting an updated version of software made.

[Tigercat]

Must.. get.. axe... sharper.... More grinding on the message board nessassary.....

[TargetPractice6]

how was he protecting fido? he was protecting the possibility of getting an updated version of software made.We get it already.

[Cherub]

I think the real lesson to be learned here is that if someone wants to post, there really isn't anything that can be done, despite all the chest-thumping by the H.N.I.C.

Wouldn't you agree, Skydog?

[digamma]

I think the real lesson to be learned here is that if someone wants to post, there really isn't anything that can be done, despite all the chest-thumping by the H.N.I.C.

Wouldn't you agree, Skydog?
Apparently, our purgatory board of banned members will be inhabited by an angel.

[DaddyTorgo]

byebye Cherub. Alak, we hardly knew ye.

[Cherub]

I think I've looked at this board a total of 3 times in the last 4 months, and posted nothing. I'm just amazed at how little changes, especially in the moderation.

But anyways, I got better things to do. I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade, I'm just surprised that people honestly believe things will change just because Ben said he was sorry once.

[Tigercat]

I think the real lesson to be learned here is that if someone wants to post, there really isn't anything that can be done, despite all the chest-thumping by the H.N.I.C.

Wouldn't you agree, Skydog?


You ever seen one of those big forest ants, that can take a couple of stomps before you kill them? Some of the insects that you get on a message board are like that. But in the end, if one is driven by stupid desires just to be a menace on a message board, one doesn't have the mental capacity to avoid the final stomp that will come eventually.

[Cherub]

Let's just put it this way:

Skydog has said his "final" goodbye to me on more than one occassion, and Driftwood did post over 100 times before deciding his time was through. I just think some people need to relax and realize that the forum doesn't belong to any one person, and no one person has the right to shape and mold the content of the forum to suit their fancy. Skydog has forgotten that, and was rightfully called on it.

Do you really think it won't happen again, or that all the members are now magically going to play on a level playing field? You're kidding yourselves. This always has, and always will be Skydog's World, and you're all just living in it.

[Flasch186]

so, according to SD, BBK got booted on 12/07. BBKZZ (same IP as DW) also got banned. BBKZ didn't post, so SD never banned him, but BBKZZ and BBK both were banned, so now SD is saying RIP to BBKZ along with DW.

im offended, not one mention of "me"

[sterlingice]

so, according to SD, BBK got booted on 12/07. BBKZZ (same IP as DW) also got banned. BBKZ didn't post, so SD never banned him, but BBKZZ and BBK both were banned, so now SD is saying RIP to BBKZ along with DW.
Wait? So who has some Burger King? I'm kindof hungry.

SI

[Cherub]

Dude, no one cares.

You know, from the previous 3 pages of this thread I could have sworn the opposite case was being made.

[Tigercat]

Let's just put it this way:

Skydog has said his "final" goodbye to me on more than one occassion, and Driftwood did post over 100 times before deciding his time was through. I just think some people need to relax and realize that the forum doesn't belong to any one person, and no one person has the right to shape and mold the content of the forum to suit their fancy. Skydog has forgotten that, and was rightfully called on it.

Do you really think it won't happen again, or that all the members are now magically going to play on a level playing field? You're kidding yourselves. This always has, and always will be Skydog's World, and you're all just living in it.

And yet i would be willing to bet that pretty much everyone on the board applauded when you were banned. All the permanent bans i've seen on this board have met nearly universal approval.

This is our world, that is all of us that can get along with each other, and you are no longer living in it. At least you won't be again come 5am.

[VPI97]

Blah, blah, blah Dude, no one cares.

[JeffNights]

I think Cherub has made some valid statements, i find it hard to disagree with some of them indeed.

[Flasch186]

I think Cherub has made some valid statements, i find it hard to disagree with some of them indeed.


If someone apologizes for something like this, rather than say, MURDER, I think its easy to forgive and move forward.,.....you know what? If it happened again and it took 24 - 48 hours for Ben or someone else to learn from a mistake, I woudl forgive them again cuz guess what? Its not like he killed me!! just forgive, and have fun.

[JeffNights]

If someone apologizes for something like this, rather than say, MURDER, I think its easy to forgive and move forward.,.....you know what? If it happened again and it took 24 - 48 hours for Ben or someone else to learn from a mistake, I woudl forgive them again cuz guess what? Its not like he killed me!! just forgive, and have fun.


I said "SOME", meaning "NOT ALL". So thanks for your useless patronizing example.

[Suicane75]

I said "SOME", meaning "NOT ALL". So thanks for your useless patronizing example.

Wouldnt it be easier for you to not make a general statement and actually say what you agree with than attack someone for guessing what you were referring to?

[Cherub]

Anyways, my point was made. I'm sure Skydog will log in tomorrow morning, react with typical swagger and proclaim (once again) that as long as he's moderator, I'll never be allowed to post again.

He may be part right. I may never post again, but it certainly won't be his choosing.

I'm not here to insult any of you or get into a flame war. I just think some of you need to stop kidding yourselves. There's a simple reason why it seems like some people get away with swearing and insulting others and others get the boot for minor offenses. There's a reason why it seems like Skydog allows others to be ripped apart for their views but can't handle any criticism directed at him.

It's because that's the way it is, and you're kidding yourself if you think it's going to change because Skydog was backed into an apology this time.

[Flasch186]

I said "SOME", meaning "NOT ALL". So thanks for your useless patronizing example.

that was mostly directed at Cherub.....

[VPI97]

You know, from the previous 3 pages of this thread I could have sworn the opposite case was being made. I'll rephrase:
Dude, no one cares about the the ramblings of an obvious attention whore.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

All I can say is where is that (&#($&$% Fido? He started it. I'm going to tear him to pieces, I tell's you.



Actually, this was all part of SD's master plan. Defend Fido by banning others, but since Fido would not find out about it, eventually telling everyone it was because of Fido that he would put the board and his rep. on the line; so that Fido would fall hopelessly in love with SD and come out with a utility. Classic. Great move SD. And I must also give props to Cringer, Sabotai, Shorty, et al. for going along with it and making it look convincing by even posting on other boards about he so-called controversy. One of the better cons since the The Sting and the episode of Banachek involving the the theft from the railway car.

[Flasch186]

well first you dont take the apology at face value so thats pointless to discuss. then you proclaim that were kidding ourselves to think that a change might be possible but you dont allow for it. So Sd, cant possibly come out ahead in your view, and cant change period because my first sentence is valid. Therefore, this entirely falls on YOU, and anyone else who feels the way you do. A man apologizes and asks for forgiveness. If those he directs the apology choose not to accept it and stay away than it is they who carry all of the blame for that result. SD's hands are clean and now all that he carries with him is the wisdom from what he's learned. What have you learned from this? You say nothing so what could SD do EVER to convince you otherwsie. IT is truly at that point....pointless.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Flassch, shouldn't you be safeguarding the USFL from the evil renegotiators right now?

[Suicane75]

What about that episode of Hart To Hart where the dude dressed up as a Mummy and freaked out Mrs. Hart to drive her insane so he could move in and steal all their money?


All I can say is where is that (&#($&$% Fido? He started it. I'm going to tear him to pieces, I tell's you.



Actually, this was all part of SD's master plan. Defend Fido by banning others, but since Fido would not find out about it, eventually telling everyone it was because of Fido that he would put the board and his rep. on the line; so that Fido would fall hopelessly in love with SD and come out with a utility. Classic. Great move SD. And I must also give props to Cringer, Sabotai, Shorty, et al. for going along with it and making it look convincing by even posting on other boards about he so-called controversy. One of the better cons since the The Sting and the episode of Banachek involving the the theft from the railway car.

[Easy Mac]

Well... it really depends on when Paris Hilton does her next tape

[Flasch186]

Flassch, shouldn't you be safeguarding the USFL from the evil renegotiators right now?


im working on it, but first I have to smoke them out of their caves.

[Cherub]

I'll rephrase:
Dude, no one cares about the the ramblings of an obvious attention whore.

Ah, how could I forget the sparkling wordplay of the FOF faithful? :)

It never changes, does it?

Person A: Makes a post calmly discussing his disagreement with a current situation.

Persons A,B,C,D: "Asshat!"

Person A: Tries to restate his position in a clearer way, but still expresses displeasure and frustration.

Persons X,Y,Z: "F-CK off you worthless troll. No one gives a shit what you think!"

Skydog: "The troll has been dealt with. We don't need negativity like that here. Buh bye."

Persons A,B,C,D,X,Y,Z: "Thanks Skydog! That's why we love this forum! There's no place for insults or people just looking to start flamewars! You're the best!"

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Can you please delete and ban Cherub now? thank you.

[Eaglesfan27]

Maybe we should have a pool?

[GoldenEagle]

Ah, how could I forget the sparkling wordplay of the FOF faithful? :)

It never changes, does it?

Person A: Makes a post calmly discussing his disagreement with a current situation.

Persons A,B,C,D: "Asshat!"

Person A: Tries to restate his position in a clearer way, but still expresses displeasure and frustration.

Persons X,Y,Z: "F-CK off you worthless troll. No one gives a shit what you think!"

Skydog: "The troll has been dealt with. We don't need negativity like that here. Buh bye."

Persons A,B,C,D,X,Y,Z: "Thanks Skydog! That's why we love this forum! There's no place for insults or people just looking to start flamewars! You're the best!"
Asshat

[Cherub]

Oh, don't worry. I'll be banned. Again :)

And as soon as Small Wonder starts, I'll be watching TV

[sabotai]

Maybe we should have a pool?

I agree. But since it's winter, let's have it indoors and heated.

[Tigercat]

Ah, how could I forget the sparkling wordplay of the FOF faithful? :)

It never changes, does it?


So earlier in this thread SkyDog was to blame, now you are going after the whole community?

SkyDog pissed you off because he didn't want to put up with you, and voila, no one else here wants to put up with you either. i guess its everyone else's fault but your own. Why are you even here?

Asshat.

[korme]

thanks Driftwood, you took all the attention away from my picture.

-creative attention whore

[Raiders Army]

Just had to post in this thread so I'd be a part of FOFC lore.

[Chubby]

We get it already.
obviously some people don't (see Bucc), Bucc probably just didn't feel like wading through pages upon pages of posts to read (i didn't, just happened by chance to read the right ones)

[Alan T]

Oh, don't worry. I'll be banned. Again :)

And as soon as Small Wonder starts, I'll be watching TV



People are able to state disagreements on all levels.. If you had shown any effort in showing intellect in any of your posts/statements and shown a desire to discuss your problems rather than acting like a spoiled twelve year old who did not get his favorite nintendo game for Christmas, then maybe people might actually care what you had to say.





edit: err maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the couch this morning in a bad mood...

[KWhit]

thanks Driftwood, you took all the attention away from my picture.

-creative attention whore
I thought your picture was pretty darn funny.

[Franklinnoble]

I thought your picture was pretty darn funny.

Yeah, me too.

Cherub does have one point... a truly persistent troll could always find his way back on here.

But what's the point?

Anyhow, he's right. It's SkyDog's world, and we're all just living in it. Which is pretty much how every message board on the internet works. What do you expect?

[WSUCougar]

It's SkyDog's world, and we're all just living in it.
Comments like this one always just amuse the hell out of me.

[GrantDawg]

With all due respect, I think this statement pretty much tells me you don't understand what our problem was. It's not that we wanted SkyDog replaced (see, I'm back too without a mod change), it's that we felt that SD went way over the line in this case and we didn't feel comfortable coming here unless the situation changed. It did, now we're here.

(When I said I wouldn't come back until there was a change, that's what I meant. SD realized he went too far, problem solved. Much respect to him for that. I think I have agreed with a good 95% of the decisions SD has made.)

I never said YOU did, but it was suggested earlier in the thread that some would not come back without Skydog being replaced. I knew even then it was an over-statement, but that was what I was refering too. Glad you are back.

[Suicane75]

I never said YOU did, but it was suggested earlier in the thread that some would not come back without Skydog being replaced. I knew even then it was an over-statement, but that was what I was refering too. Glad you are back.

I can't speak for others, but as far as I was concerned that wasn't the case either, in fact as I said, the level to which things got heated upset me because I didn't want to see it escelate to that, I just wanted discussion on a decision I thought was overboard, nothing more, nothing less. If i thought SD was a bad mod i wouldnt be here at all, I think he's a very good mod in the grand scheme of things. Even the Beatles have their Yellow Submarine. :D

[Fonzie]

Gentlemen, please!

Less gum-flappin', more Mad-Libbin'! ;)

[Senator]

I am not sure what happened here.. I really haven't been around for a variety of reasons. But I was a little shocked to see some of the most famous posters in FOFC history taking off, and the person I live my youth through, Shorty, among them. I think I may have started this innocently, because I bumped the thread re: Fido's utility. My thoughts are pretty basic. If Fido gets mad and takes his ball and goes home, then so what? It was an amazing utility, one that I would pay for, but I will be damned if I am blowing him for it.

[spleen1015]

Why doesn't someone duplicate this utility?

[sabotai]

Why doesn't someone duplicate this utility?

Very few people here have the ability to reverse engineer the data files in the way that Fido did to get the result (even though a good portion of the file format was posted here by members of the board awhile ago). I don't know how many people here are hardcore programmers the way Fido was. Say what you will, the guy just flat out knew how to program and he was damn good at it (FAR better than me).

I would consider taking on the task, but I have too much on plate as far as "free time projects" go as it is.

[GrantDawg]

Is that what we're looking to accomplish? To have SD change his style of moderating? If we're looking for a resolution that would make the major participants happy, I don't think that's it. I mean if some are saying that they'll only return is SD is removed, then a change of his 'style' isn't the end result that they want.

Now if you want to write off those posters as acceptable losses and move onto how SD's style should be for the remainder of us, then I really think that's an issue that SD needs to determine for himself.This is the post I was refering to, so not everybody that threatened to leave feel they need to say "it wasn't me." I never singled out any of those who left by name, and had no intention of saying they all "would only come back if Skydog left."

[sabotai]

Ok GrantDawg, you're off the hook. And VPI has been planted there.

I don't think I saw anyone threaten to leave until SkyDog was removed. A change of style is the end result that everyone was looking for.