Falcons-Panthers Saturday Night NFL

[Ben E Lou]

Carolina trying to keep playoff hopes alive, and Falcons hoping to clinch first-round bye this weekend.

[Ben E Lou]

Brooking causes fumble...but they oughta challenge that one...

[Ben E Lou]

Wow. The Falcons just ran a formation with Vick lined up at WR, and Dunn in the shotgun. Dunn faked handoff to Vick coming in motion, and Dunn ran for first down.

[Radii]

carolina is going hard after vick(and getting to him a little early), which seems to leave Dunn with a lot of space up the middle when he runs so far...

Panthers need to control the ball a bit and not let the falcons get any more momentium.

[Ben E Lou]

Vick-Finneran TD pass. 7-0 Birds.

[GrantDawg]

Vick-Finneran TD pass. 7-0 Birds.
Bout time they used Finn at the goal-line. Price still stinks.

[Radii]

What a bullshit call on the late hit.

[Radii]

I don't think Vick's feet had hit out of bounds yet, with someone as dangerous as him you want to make damn sure he isn't going to try to turn up the field

[GrantDawg]

What a bullshit call on the late hit.
Sort of. He had no reason to touch him (it wasn't a momentum deal). He didn't hit him hard, but he still should have kept his hands to himself.

[Ben E Lou]

10-0 Atlanta early in the second quarter.

[MizzouRah]

Thanks, forgot this one was one. In fact, I didn't know any games were on today. Guess I've been in Christmas mode.

Funny though, none of my fantasy players are playing today... that's the reason!


Todd

[GrantDawg]

I heart Allan Rossum.

[Ben E Lou]

Word.

[JAG]

Tie game. Good first half. Falcons might want to cover Muhammad though.

[Radii]

i'll take 10-10 at the half here, plus Carolina has all the momentum.

[Ben E Lou]

Falcons might want to cover Muhammad though.No kidding.

[MizzouRah]

I wish I had Muhammad on my fantasy team.


Todd

[duckman]

Vick is just sick when it comes to evading a pass rush.

[Ben E Lou]

WEAK call. The No Fun League strikes again.

[Radii]

I don't know what is pissing me off more, the Panthers special teams coverage or their run defense.

[Radii]

so are we all just on different clocks? 3 posts in a row timed 10:35pm for me, even though a 10:37 and 10:39 post have already been posted!

[Ben E Lou]

No matter. Great drive to start the half. 17-10 Birds.

[duckman]

Come on Falcons! Keep my Cowboys alive for one game! :)

[Ben E Lou]

Geez that man is fast.

[Radii]

Maybe the panthers will decide to play defense again in the 4th quarter?

[Radii]

My clock is 4 minutes behind SD's. 10:42, my posts are behind easy mac and SD now.

[Easy Mac]

Geez, that man throws worse than Kyle Boller.

[Ben E Lou]

...except for that laser-beam for a touchdown. ;)

24-10 Falcons.

[FBPro]

...except for that laser-beam for a touchdown. ;)

24-10 Falcons.
That was unreal.

[Radii]

oh well, good game.

[Ben E Lou]

Fumble recovery in Carolina territory!

[Ben E Lou]

Bah.

[Radii]

Well I'll be damned. Now, can we please see some Panther defense next posession? Also, don't kick it to Rossum.

[FBPro]

Refs missed that call on the challenge.

[Ben E Lou]

NICE!

[Radii]

PEPPERS!!!!

ugh special teams again.

[Radii]

My posts are showing up 5 behind other peoples. This is getting really, really really absurd.

[Ben E Lou]

:mad:

[Chubby]

Peppers returns Vick fumble for TD!!!!

[Easy Mac]

Holy Fucking Shit!!!

Peppers pulled a David POllack.

He is ungodly fast!!!!

[Easy Mac]

He just reached out and grabbed the damn thing... THat was the best defensive play I've seen this year.

[Ben E Lou]

Niceeeeeeeeee......Rossum laterals to D'Angelo Hall on the kickoff return.

[Easy Mac]

GROUNDING??????

These Refs are cheating if they don't call that.

[MizzouRah]

Peppers is quite a player.


Todd

[korme]

another ATL TO!

[Easy Mac]

FUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ATL is imploding

[Ben E Lou]

Talk about back-and-forth.

[Chubby]

fumble-rooski

[Buccaneer]

Just checked the box score and saw that Vick is 9/20 for 83 yards????? Did they switch him to the Kordell Stewart playbook or something?

[Ben E Lou]

Who is the guy in the booth who told Mora to challenge THAT???

[Crapshoot]

wow..

[Crapshoot]

well- at least they have to go 5 yard- instead of 1.

[Crapshoot]

And - that's not a problem apparently. Wow. The Falcons look awful.

[MizzouRah]

I was wrong, I have Nick Goings and Kerry Colbert going for me tonight. I just yelled, "Yes" when Goings scored that TD. I did however, forget that if Carolina wins, that's bad for St. Louis.

Todd

[Radii]

YES! (posting 5 minutes late to hopefully get my post to show up at a reasonable time!) come on panthers D. Those two failed challenges are going to hurt.

[Easy Mac]

WOW!

[Crapshoot]

what a play by Dez White- a Falcons reciever who does something useful!!!

[MizzouRah]

WOW!

Nice play Dez White

Are the Rams recievers watching this game?


Todd

[Buccaneer]

No really, for someone who's being touted as a superstar, did they not have any confidence in his passing abilities? Falcons seem to be running the ball good (200+) yards but is that all they have become?

[Crapshoot]

a 4yd gain on the fumble!!!!!!!

[Ben E Lou]

No really, for someone who's being touted as a superstar, did they not have any confidence in his passing abilities? Falcons seem to be running the ball good (200+) yards but is that all they have become?Hey, genius, if the Falcons lose, they're 10-4, and Vick is 22-12-1. Sounds like whatever they're doing is working to me.

[korme]

WOW!

Nice play Dez White

[Ben E Lou]

Way to USE 'em Dez!

[Easy Mac]

No really, for someone who's being touted as a superstar, did they not have any confidence in his passing abilities? Falcons seem to be running the ball good (200+) yards but is that all they have become?
well... he is better than these guys

<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">20</td><td align="left">Tim Rattay (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187628)</td><td align="center">SF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/SF)</td><td>2169</td><td>325</td><td>198</td><td>10</td><td>10</td><td>65</td><td>78.1</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">21</td><td align="left">Carson Palmer (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396173)</td><td align="center">CIN (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/CIN)</td><td>2897</td><td>432</td><td>263</td><td>18</td><td>18</td><td>76</td><td>77.3</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">22</td><td align="left">Aaron Brooks (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133233)</td><td align="center">NO (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/NO)</td><td>3198</td><td>473</td><td>269</td><td>17</td><td>14</td><td>57</td><td>77.3</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">23</td><td align="left">Joey Harrington (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302199)</td><td align="center">DET (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/DET)</td><td>2174</td><td>366</td><td>201</td><td>15</td><td>8</td><td>50</td><td>77.2</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">24</td><td align="left">Drew Bledsoe (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1041)</td><td align="center">BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/BUF)</td><td>2388</td><td>358</td><td>204</td><td>18</td><td>15</td><td>69</td><td>76.7</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">25</td><td align="left">Jeff Garcia (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/146325)</td><td align="center">CLE (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/CLE)</td><td>1731</td><td>252</td><td>144</td><td>10</td><td>9</td><td>99</td><td>76.7</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">26</td><td align="left">Kerry Collins (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1013)</td><td align="center">OAK (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/OAK)</td><td>2765</td><td>400</td><td>235</td><td>14</td><td>15</td><td>63</td><td>75.9</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">27</td><td align="left">Vinny Testaverde (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1007)</td><td align="center">DAL (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/DAL)</td><td>2891</td><td>398</td><td>235</td><td>14</td><td>17</td><td>53</td><td>75.5</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">28</td><td align="left">Kyle Boller (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396152)</td><td align="center">BAL (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/BAL)</td><td>2030</td><td>365</td><td>207</td><td>11</td><td>8</td><td>57</td><td>73.4</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">29</td><td align="left">Steve McNair (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1069)</td><td align="center">TEN (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/TEN)</td><td>1343</td><td>215</td><td>129</td><td>8</td><td>9</td><td>37</td><td>73.1</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">30</td><td align="left">Josh McCown (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302085)</td><td align="center">ARI (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/ARI)</td><td>1861</td><td>305</td><td>174</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>48</td><td>72.0</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Buccaneer]

There you go.

[Easy Mac]

So is Vick the only QB who didn't stay in college for at least 4 years who is starting? Was Boller a junior?

[Easy Mac]

He was throwing! He was throwing! Challenge!

[korme]

Vick intentionally fumbles to move the Falcons up to the 2!

But he's down..... loooks to be ok!

[Crapshoot]

He is amazing.

[korme]

nice stop by Gamble

[Ben E Lou]

Hmmmm....what's more important, passer rating, or winning? ;)

[Easy Mac]

Are you pimping THE OSU player Shorty?

[korme]

crazy play

4th and goal, 12

[Ben E Lou]

Doesn't look good here. 4th and goal.

[Buccaneer]

Hey, genius, if the Falcons lose, they're 10-4, and Vick is 22-12-1. Sounds like whatever they're doing is working to me.
Hey, fanboy, do you know what they ARE doing (gameplan and playbook-wise)? Sheesh, Georgia fans have such thin skins - can't take any alternative opinions and differences in likes/dislikes. :p

[korme]

Are you pimping THE OSU player Shorty?
who was the guy that recovered the fumble? oh oh, that's right, michael jenkins..

[Crapshoot]

Exhibit "A" of why passer rating isn't as important with Vick. If you're going to evaluate him statistically, you've GOT to include the first downs/touchdowns he gets on runs as well.

aye- I think Vick deserves to be evaulated taking his running into question. That being said, W-L is ridiculous alone- the rest of the talent can make up for it.

[korme]

dehlomme looks SO interested!

/sarcasm

[korme]

wow

he's amazing

[Suicane75]

As a partisan observer, this is an excellent game to kick back and watch.




With the sound down

[Easy Mac]

Nice Call

Its all up to Jake

[Ben E Lou]

Hey, fanboy, do you know what they ARE doing (gameplan and playbook-wise)? Sheesh, Georgia fans have such thin skins - can't take any alternative opinions and differences in likes/dislikes. :pFanboy my butt, Mr. Inflexible. They've put a lot of QB runs and rollouts in place, and they're pounding it with Dunn and Duckett.

Nice run for the TD, Mike!

[korme]

some how his knee gets 1 inch from the ground

[Buccaneer]

Well, they don't call him Mr. Excitement for nothing, I guess.

[Easy Mac]

His knee is on the ground right as it touches the goal line, so he does touch the ground Theisman.... and I really don't think he was thinking... I need to lift my legs up, his legs never moved... he layed out for a dive.

These announcers may orgasm soon... Somebody needs to get Theisman a Michael Vick calendar.

[Ben E Lou]

Exhibit "A" of why passer rating isn't as important with Vick. If you're going to evaluate him statistically, you've GOT to include the first downs/touchdowns he gets on runs as well.

[Easy Mac]

Hmmmm....what's more important, passer rating, or winning? ;)
There seems to be a pretty decent correlation:

<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">1</td><td align="left">Peyton Manning (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531)</td><td align="center">IND (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/IND)</td><td>3919</td><td>418</td><td>288</td><td>46</td><td>9</td><td>80</td><td>126.3</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">2</td><td align="left">Daunte Culpepper (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133263)</td><td align="center">MIN (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/MIN)</td><td>3729</td><td>446</td><td>311</td><td>31</td><td>10</td><td>63</td><td>108.9</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">3</td><td align="left">Donovan McNabb (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133361)</td><td align="center">PHI (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/PHI)</td><td>3616</td><td>431</td><td>277</td><td>29</td><td>6</td><td>80</td><td>107.2</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">4</td><td align="left">Drew Brees (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235197)</td><td align="center">SD (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/SD)</td><td>2784</td><td>363</td><td>237</td><td>23</td><td>6</td><td>79</td><td>102.7</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">5</td><td align="left">Brian Griese (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12409)</td><td align="center">TB (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/TB)</td><td>2193</td><td>273</td><td>190</td><td>16</td><td>9</td><td>68</td><td>99.4</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">6</td><td align="left">Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493043)</td><td align="center">PIT (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/PIT)</td><td>2084</td><td>248</td><td>164</td><td>14</td><td>8</td><td>58</td><td>97.6</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">7</td><td align="left">Trent Green (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1599)</td><td align="center">KC (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/KC)</td><td>3636</td><td>439</td><td>288</td><td>21</td><td>12</td><td>70</td><td>95.8</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">8</td><td align="left">Tom Brady (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741)</td><td align="center">NE (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/NE)</td><td>3031</td><td>383</td><td>227</td><td>21</td><td>9</td><td>50</td><td>92.9</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">9</td><td align="left">Marc Bulger (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187501)</td><td align="center">STL (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/STL)</td><td>3289</td><td>419</td><td>272</td><td>17</td><td>12</td><td>56</td><td>90.5</td></tr><tr class="bg2" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="center">10</td><td align="left">Chad Pennington (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187395)</td><td align="center">NYJ (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/NYJ)</td><td>1987</td><td>274</td><td>181</td><td>11</td><td>7</td><td>48</td><td>90.1</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Ben E Lou]

Sheesh, Georgia fans have such thin skinsThat's good. When on the ropes, revert to stereotyping. Nice.

[Ben E Lou]

There seems to be a pretty decent correlation:Usually it does, but not with Vick. This is just a different case. He has a career passer rating <80, but an exceptional winning percentage--and it sure can't be said it is because of the rest of the team. :p

[Easy Mac]

Does Proehl ever not make p[ays?

Dumb playcall

Took too long to develop. might as well sit on it now.

[Ben E Lou]

What......the........heck???

I love the toss sweep as much as anybody, but in THAT situation????

[Buccaneer]

I didn't know that having thin skins was classified as being stereotypical? Hmmm.... [SD - you do need to ask Ryan to have the option to make smilies bigger, some people seem to interpret them as being serious.]

[Ben E Lou]

I didn't know that having thin skins was classified as being stereotypical? Hmmm.... [SD - you do need to ask Ryan to have the option to make smilies bigger, some people seem to interpret them as being serious.]You said "Georgia fans." Have the guts to say it is me personally you're talking about, or admit to using group stereotypes. It is either one or the other.

[Crapshoot]

biggest interception of the kid's career//

[Ben E Lou]

Carolina does us a favor every time they do a "finesse" run.

[Easy Mac]

Usually it does, but not with Vick. This is just a different case. He has a career passer rating <80, but an exceptional winning percentage--and it sure can't be said it is because of the rest of the team. :p
No offense Skydog, but looking at the stats online, here is a Vick fact:

His team has beaten 5 teams (6 including playoffs) with winning records in his career... 5... with Vick as the starting QB, the Falcons are 5-10 against teams with winning records.

[davidlando1]

what a fantastic game.....

[Buccaneer]

You said "Georgia fans." Have the guts to say it is me personally you're talking about, or admit to using group stereotypes. It is either one or the other.
..or somewhere in the middle? :p

Q: How many Falcons fans does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A: None, the bulb is already screwed in and illuminating, so they say.

[FBPro]

38 yarder, Falcons win!

[Ben E Lou]

No offense Skydog, but looking at the stats online, here is a Vick fact:

His team has beaten 5 teams (6 including playoffs) with winning records in his career... 5... with Vick as the starting QB, the Falcons are 5-10 against teams with winning records.That's an interesting stat. As his career goes on, things will surely even out in terms of who he plays against, and the truth about his value will be revealed. The fact still remains that the team can't beat winning OR losing teams without him.

[Buccaneer]

Usually it does, but not with Vick. This is just a different case. He has a career passer rating <80, but an exceptional winning percentage--and it sure can't be said it is because of the rest of the team. :p
I would say that Dunn has put up good numbers tonight.

[Ben E Lou]

Ball game.

[Easy Mac]

well,the fact still holds that he hasn't lost to the Panthers, so I'd still bet money on him every time in this game.

I think ATL just knocked out their biggest non-Philly threat.

[Radii]

I do not understand why people say this ends carolina's playoff chances. Either the rams have to win out or one or more of the 5-8 teams that would beat carolina in a tiebreaker has to win out to go 8-8.

This hurts, a lot, but it's not over yet.

I cannot believe Carolina just lost that game. That was truly heartbreaking.

[Ben E Lou]

I would say that Dunn has put up good numbers tonight.Very true. The fact of the matter is that opponents are forced to keep their defensive ends out on the periphery, and many also use an additional "spy" to help deal with the Vick running threat. (That 7.5+ ypc rushing average of his has to be dealt with.) It is no coincidence that the running backs have better games when Vick is starting as opposed to, say, Doug Johnson.

[Easy Mac]

That's an interesting stat. As his career goes on, things will surely even out in terms of who he plays against, and the truth about his value will be revealed. The fact still remains that the team can't beat winning OR losing teams without him.
well technically, the team is 3-7 against winning teams since Vick came into the league.

That means (based on my normally flawed math and counting skills, since it seems odd they'd play only 25 games against winning teams in 5 years, but I digrees) the following:
Vick: 5-10
Team w/o: 3-7

Vick: .333 winning percentage
Team w/o: .300

Over 30 games, the difference would finally come out to 1 game better with Vick.

Vick has had a very easy schedule.

[Ben E Lou]

well technically, the team is 3-7 against winning teams since Vick came into the league.

That means (based on my normally flawed math and counting skills, since it seems odd they'd play only 25 games against winning teams in 5 years, but I digrees) the following:
Vick: 5-10
Team w/o: 3-7

Vick: .333 winning percentage
Team w/o: .300

Over 30 games, the difference would finally come out to 1 game better with Vick.

Vick has had a very easy schedule.EDIT SUNDAY MORNING: It turns out Easy's numbers were wrong, here are the actuals:

Falcons vs. winning teams w/ Vick starting: 5-6-1 (.458) regular season, 1-1 playoffs
Falcons vs. non-winning teams w/ Vick starting: 18-5 (.783)
Falcons overall w/ Vick starting: 23-11-1 (.671)

Falcons vs. winning teams w/o Vick starting: 3-11 (.214)
Falcons vs. non-winning teams w/o Vick starting: 6-7 (.462)
Falcons overall w/o Vick starting: 9-18 (.333)

Heck, at least he's cleaning house against the dregs, and Falcons haven't even managed to do that without him. :(

[Ben E Lou]

Just double-checked: he's 23-11-1 as a starter:

2001: 1-1 (the team was 6-8 in games he didn't start)
2002: 8-6-1 (1-0)
2003: 3-1 (2-10)
2004: 11-3 (0-0)

I'm a little too tired to double-check the records vs. winning teams, but if Easy's numbers are right, then we are left with:

w/ Vick vs. non-winning teams: 18-1-1
w/o Vick vs. non-winning teams: 6-11

[ISiddiqui]

Wow.... great game tonight. Vick wasn't that great passing the ball, but with the game on the line on 4th down he came through in the clutch!!

[GrantDawg]

Where did you get your stats, Easy? I can't find your numbers. I have it as Vick is 6-6-1 versus winning teams as a starter (not a winning record, but not nearly as bad as you have it). I know your stats have to be at least a little off, because of the tie versus Pittsburg in 2002. He is 2-0 this year versus winning teams, 1-1 in 2003, 3-5-1 in 2002. I can't find which games he started in 2001 (didn't he start two?).

[GrantDawg]

BTW, the 2002 stats included playoffs.

[Ben E Lou]

OK, the discrepancies in numbers above led me to do my own research. Here are Vick's results as a starter against winning teams, compared near the bottom to his overall career numbers.

<table> <tbody><tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 11.25pt; width: 49pt;" align="center" height="15" width="65">YEAR</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 51pt;" align="center" width="68">OPP</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 38pt;" align="center" width="50">OPPREC</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 67pt;" align="center" width="89">W/L</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 26pt;" align="center" width="35">ATT</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 28pt;" align="center" width="37">CMP</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 28pt;" align="center" width="37">YDS</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 27pt;" align="center" width="36">TD</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 23pt;" align="center" width="31">INT</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 24pt;" align="center" width="32">ATT</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 30pt;" align="center" width="40">YDS</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 23pt;" align="center" width="31">TD</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 26pt;" align="center" width="34">YPA</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 34pt;" align="center" width="45">YPC</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" align="center" width="64">QBRTG</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2001</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at STL</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">14-2</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (31-13)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">30</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">12</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">176</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">4</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">58</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="5.8666666666666663" x:fmla="=G2/E2" align="center">5.87</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K2/J2" align="center">14.50</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at GB</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">12-4</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (37-34)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">23</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">15</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">209</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">9</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">72</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="9.0869565217391308" x:fmla="=G3/E3" align="center">9.09</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K3/J3" align="center">8.00</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">TB</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">12-4</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (20-6)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">12</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">4</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">37</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="3.0833333333333335" x:fmla="=G4/E4" align="center">3.08</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K4/J4" align="center">1.00</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at NO</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">9-7</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">W (37-35)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">24</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">16</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">195</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">10</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">91</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">2</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="8.125" x:fmla="=G5/E5" align="center">8.13</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K5/J5" align="center">9.10</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at PIT</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">10-5-1</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">T (34-34)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">46</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">24</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">294</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">10</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">38</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="6.3913043478260869" x:fmla="=G6/E6" align="center">6.39</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K6/J6" align="center">3.80</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">NO</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">9-7</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">W (24-17)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">23</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">11</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">160</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">2</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">7</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">55</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="6.9565217391304346" x:fmla="=G7/E7" align="center">6.96</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="7.8571428571428568" x:fmla="=K7/J7" align="center">7.86</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at TB</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">12-4</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (34-10)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">25</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">12</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">125</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">6</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">9</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=G8/E8" align="center">5.00</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K8/J8" align="center">1.50</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2002</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at CLE</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">9-7</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (24-16)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">40</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">17</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">240</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">6</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">37</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=G9/E9" align="center">6.00</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="6.166666666666667" x:fmla="=K9/J9" align="center">6.17</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2003</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">CAR</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">11-5</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">W (20-14)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">33</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">16</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">179</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">14</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">141</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="5.4242424242424239" x:fmla="=G10/E10" align="center">5.42</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="10.071428571428571" x:fmla="=K10/J10" align="center">10.07</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2003</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at IND</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">12-4</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (38-7)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">19</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">6</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">47</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">4</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">30</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="2.4736842105263159" x:fmla="=G11/E11" align="center">2.47</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="" x:fmla="=K11/J11" align="center">7.50</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2004</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">SD</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">10-3</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">W (21-20)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">21</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">12</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">218</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">2</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">9</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">35</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="10.380952380952381" x:fmla="=G12/E12" align="center">10.38</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="3.8888888888888888" x:fmla="=K12/J12" align="center">3.89</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 11.25pt;" x:num="" align="center" height="15">2004</td> <td class="xl27" align="center">at DEN</td> <td class="xl28" align="center">8-5</td> <td class="xl27" align="center">W (41-28)</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">24</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">18</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">252</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">2</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">12</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">115</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl32" x:num="" x:fmla="=G13/E13" align="center">10.50</td> <td class="xl31" x:num="9.5833333333333339" x:fmla="=K13/J13" align="center">9.58</td> <td class="xl27" align="center"> </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 45pt;" height="60"> <td class="xl34" style="height: 45pt; width: 49pt;" align="center" height="60" width="65">OVERALL VS WINNING TEAMS</td> <td class="xl35" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl36" align="center">128-57-1</td> <td class="xl36" align="center">5-6-1</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(E2:E13)" align="center">320</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(F2:F13)" align="center">163</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(G2:G13)" align="center">2132</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(H2:H13)" align="center">10</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(I2:I13)" align="center">7</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(J2:J13)" align="center">92</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(K2:K13)" align="center">682</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(L2:L13)" align="center">7</td> <td class="xl37" x:num="6.6624999999999996" x:fmla="=G14/E14" align="center">6.66</td> <td class="xl37" x:num="7.4130434782608692" x:fmla="=K14/J14" align="center">7.41</td> <td class="xl35" x:num="74.896000000000001" align="center">74.896</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 10.5pt;" height="14"> <td class="xl33" style="height: 10.5pt; width: 49pt;" align="center" height="14" width="65">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl30" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl29" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 36pt;" height="48"> <td class="xl38" style="height: 36pt; width: 49pt;" align="center" height="48" width="65">OVERALL VS ALL TEAMS</td> <td class="xl39" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl40" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl39" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">948</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">506</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">6584</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">35</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">26</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">301</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">2210</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">13</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="6.9451476793248945" x:fmla="=G16/E16" align="center">6.95</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="7.3421926910299007" x:fmla="=K16/J16" align="center">7.3422</td> <td class="xl39" x:num="" align="center">76.4</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" align="center" height="15">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" align="center" height="15">2002 PLY</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at GB</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">12-4</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">W (27-7)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">25</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">13</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">117</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">1</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">10</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">64</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 11.25pt;" height="15"> <td class="xl25" style="height: 11.25pt;" align="center" height="15">2002 PLY</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">at PHI</td> <td class="xl26" align="center">12-4</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">L (20-6)</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">38</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">22</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">274</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">2</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">6</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">30</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" align="center">0</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> <td class="xl25" align="center">
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

So, for his career overall, he's had very little statistical dropoff against winning teams, definitely no more than you'd expect of anyone else against tougher competition. Granted, the sample size is small, but you can't say that he hasn't been anything short of splendid this year against teams with winning records; he averaged 7.14 yards per carry, and a 121.53 passer rating in those two games this year.

Also, Easy's numbers on the Falcons vs. winners when Vick doesn't start are WAY off. Here are the actuals:

2001: 1-6 (lost to: SF, CHI, SF, NE, STL, MIA. beat GB)
2002: 1-0 (beat NY)
2003: 1-5 (lost to: CAR, MIN, STL, PHI, TEN. beat DAL)

So, the team is actually 3-11 against winning teams w/o Vick. Also, if we were looking at non-losing teams, things would be even worse; the team was 0-2 versus 8-8 New Orleans in '03.

So then, these are the overall win/loss numbers:

Falcons vs. winning teams w/ Vick starting: 5-6-1 (.458) regular season, 1-1 playoffs
Falcons vs. non-winning teams w/ Vick starting: 18-5 (.783)
Falcons overall w/ Vick starting: 23-11-1 (.671)

Falcons vs. winning teams w/o Vick starting: 3-11 (.214)
Falcons vs. non-winning teams w/o Vick starting: 6-7 (.462)
Falcons overall w/o Vick starting: 9-18 (.333)

In short, the team has performed more than twice as well against both winning and non-winning teams when he has started. A relatively small sample size still, but the remarkable consistency of the numbers is strongly indicative of a trend here.

Now, all of this isn't to say that I believe he's arrived; he hasn't. If he can help the team start winning at a .525-.600 clip against winning teams, and continue to clean house against non-winners, then this life-long Falcon fan will be very, very happy.

[JAG]

Wish I had stayed awake for this one.

[Ben E Lou]

Wish I had stayed awake for this one.It was a good one. Still not sure whether to call it "sloppy" or "exciting," though. It was a bit of both, to be sure.

[MizzouRah]

Thanks goes out to Goings for getting me 14 points and to the Falcons for giving the Rams yet another chance to get into the playoffs.


Todd

[duckman]

I would like to thank the Atlanta Falcons for giving us Cowboys fans a little more hope for a playoff spot. ;)

[cthomer5000]

I would like to thank the Atlanta Falcons for giving us Cowboys fans a little more hope for a playoff spot. ;)
There will be a lot of Arizona Cardinal fans today.

[TroyF]

Very nice work Skydog.

Vick is a terrific player and a very, very good QB. He still has a lot to learn, but how many 24 year old QB's don't?

[Celeval]

You said "Georgia fans." Have the guts to say it is me personally you're talking about, or admit to using group stereotypes. It is either one or the other.
Georgia fans suck.



I'm stereotyping. :-D

[FBPro]

Very nice work Skydog.

Vick is a terrific player and a very, very good QB. He still has a lot to learn, but how many 24 year old QB's don't?

I'd say that you are right on!!!! Certainly he makes mistakes and plays inconsistently some BUT he can also make some unreal plays with his legs and his arm.

[ISiddiqui]

Imagine what happens when the light 'clicks' in his head and he learns how to pass consistently in the NFL ;).

Though with his arm, I think the Falcons should try and go deep more often.

[GrantDawg]

Imagine what happens when the light 'clicks' in his head and he learns how to pass consistently in the NFL ;).

Though with his arm, I think the Falcons should try and go deep more often.
Amen, brother! Of course, they would mean the line needs to block long enough to give Vick time to look downfield, and the Falcons can find a reciever that can get open downfield.

[Buccaneer]

Amen, brother! Of course, they would mean the line needs to block long enough to give Vick time to look downfield, and the Falcons can find a reciever that can get open downfield.
Why not have a rule that no one is allowed to rush at him?

Having just watched Primetime, I saw several young QBs (Leftwich, Brees, Pennington) make plays while defenders are in their faces. Right now I would put each of those QBs ahead of Vicks because of their consistencies. Vicks just remind me of Kordell Stewart on a good day - few brilliant plays among a bunch of bad ones with limited playcalling. Maybe y'all are only looking at his green bars?

But he does a dangerous dimension when he can run downfield, much like McNabb did a few times today. I thought it had been said for the past couple of years that they (coaches, fans, teammates, etc.) were trying to get him out of tucking the ball too soon? Or perhaps have they changed their playbook to limit his passing and open his running up more? How long can they keep that up (esp. when everyone said during his injury last season that he needed to less of that)?

Yes, I am very biased, always have been and I do wish him to fail miserably. But one cannot deny that he has helped the Falcons to be winners - somehow.

[ISiddiqui]

They opened up the playbook to allow him to run more. That is a strength Mike Vick has, not a weakness. He'll get a 1000 yards rushing and it will be an integral part of their offense. And you said it, he just wins. I noticed who you compared Vick too. Leftwich has Fred Taylor and Jimmy Smith. Brees has LaDanian Tomlinson. Pennington has Curtis Martin and Santana Moss (who, granted, was invisible in the beginning of the year). While Dunn and Duckett are not bad, they aren't the same caliber as those other young QBs you mentioned have. And forget about the WRs.

[cthomer5000]

But one cannot deny that he has helped the Falcons to be winners - somehow.
He moves the ball. Why discount his rushing skills when they are obviously a massive element of his game? It would be like tossing out a RB's receiving stats and whining about how he needs to concentrate on running more.

[Buccaneer]

Because it would be like tossing out a QB's passing stats, which is being done.

[cthomer5000]

Because it would be like tossing out a QB's passing stats, which is being done.
He's an average passer right now with exceptional running skills. Combined, he's easily an above average QB.

Passing+rushing yards, he's probably in the 10-12 range for QBs.

[ISiddiqui]

Because it would be like tossing out a QB's passing stats, which is being done.

But they aren't. He doesn't have the best passing numbers, but an 80 passer rating isn't horrid. His running game elevates that mediocre passer rating.

[Easy Mac]

well, here are Vick's numbers from 3 losses in 2001 that have not been credited as Vick losses... but I would argue he's figure prominently in all 3 games (I have no idea which games he started, at least according to pro-football-reference.)



| WK OPP | CMP ATT PYD TD INT | RSH YD TD |
| 4 chi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi2001.htm) | 12 18 186 0 0 | 5 18 0 |
</pre>

| 12 ram (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram2001.htm) | 7 18 94 0 0 | 6 52 0 |
| 16 mia (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia2001.htm) | 11 20 214 1 2 | 5 63 0 </pre> Now as I said, I have no idea what games he started, but I included these 3 in my analysis. Switch those 3 games, and we come up with pretty much the same numbers.

[Buccaneer]

Ok.

[Ben E Lou]

Yes, I am very biased, always have been and I do wish him to fail miserably.This from the guy who likes to *claim* that he wants to make room for all kinds of different styles. <input alt=\":lol\" src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" onclick="doEmoticon(this.form.body,eList,28);return false;" type="image">

[Easy Mac]

He's an average passer right now with exceptional running skills. Combined, he's easily an above average QB.

Passing+rushing yards, he's probably in the 10-12 range for QBs.
10th to be exact.

[Ben E Lou]

well, here are Vick's numbers from 3 losses in 2001 that have not been credited as Vick losses... but I would argue he's figure prominently in all 3 games (I have no idea which games he started, at least according to pro-football-reference.)



| WK OPP | CMP ATT PYD TD INT | RSH YD TD |
| 4 chi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi2001.htm) | 12 18 186 0 0 | 5 18 0 |


| 12 ram (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram2001.htm) | 7 18 94 0 0 | 6 52 0 |
| 16 mia (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia2001.htm) | 11 20 214 1 2 | 5 63 0 Now as I said, I have no idea what games he started, but I included these 3 in my analysis. Switch those 3 games, and we come up with pretty much the same numbers.He started against St. Louis (2nd game) and Dallas.

Chicago game: Chandler started and threw 3 INT's. Final: 31-3 Bears

St Louis (1st game): Chandler threw 18 passes in that one as the starter. Final: 35-6 Rams.

Miami: Chandler started, had a stellar 36.6 passer rating in it, and Vick replaced him. 21-14 Dolphins.

Looks like the first two were clear Chandler losses, Vick entering games that were already blowouts. The Dolphin game is the only one of those three in which he had a chance at all.

[cthomer5000]

10th to be exact.
Thank you. To me, that's ultimately all that matters. How many yards of offense was the QB responsible for?

Now you can definitely make a case that the increased injury risk might not be worth it (as in you'd rather have a 'standard' QB throwing for a few less yards total). But I'm also guessing Vick's athleticism saves him from a great number of sacks (effectively 'gaining' more yardage but not allowing the loss of yardage that most QBs would).

[Ben E Lou]

But I'm also guessing Vick's athleticism saves him from a great number of sacks (effectively 'gaining' more yardage but not allowing the loss of yardage that most QBs would).That's a tough one to quantify. He gets out of some situations that no other QB in the league can get out of, but he also gets some sacks trying to make a play when other guys would have just thrown it away.

[Buccaneer]

This from the guy who likes to *claim* that he wants to make room for all kinds of different styles. <INPUT onclick=\"doEmoticon(this.form.body,eList,28);return false;\" type=image alt='\\":lol\\"' src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif">
To me, Vick is not Mr Excitement and would rather choose to spend my entertainment time elsewhere. It's a luxury, esp. since I have no vested interest (the opposite, in fact) in him or the team. I say that about any player who is hyped to be the greatest of all time when it is more wishful thinking or strongly being a self-fulfilled prophesy.

Signed,
A guy in the blue jersey among a sea of red

[cthomer5000]

That's a tough one to quantify. He gets out of some situations that no other QB in the league can get out of, but he also gets some sacks trying to make a play when other guys would have just thrown it away.
After looking at the stats, I have to think I'm dead wrong on this. He's been sacked the most of any QB in the league, for the 3rd most sack yardage. I can't imagine the O-line pass blocks that poorly.

[Easy Mac]

Thank you. To me, that's ultimately all that matters. How many yards of offense was the QB responsible for?

Now you can definitely make a case that the increased injury risk might not be worth it (as in you'd rather have a 'standard' QB throwing for a few less yards total). But I'm also guessing Vick's athleticism saves him from a great number of sacks (effectively 'gaining' more yardage but not allowing the loss of yardage that most QBs would).
whoops, 11th on the list, i misadded again.
Well, here are the 11 players ahead of him:
Manning
Culpepper
T. Green
McNabb
Delhomme
Bulger
Plummer
Brooks
Carr
Favre
Vick

However, in yards per game, he is 17th, so I wouldn't really use your method as an exact measure of a QB's worth (he's about 2 yards a game better than Vinny T)

[Ben E Lou]

To me, Vick is not Mr Excitement and would rather choose to spend my entertainment time elsewhere. It's a luxury, esp. since I have no vested interest (the opposite, in fact) in him or the team. I say that about any player who is hyped to be the greatest of all time when it is more wishful thinking or strongly being a self-fulfilled prophesy.

Signed,
A guy in the blue jersey among a sea of redWhatever. If Vick were a young QB in the mold that you prefer, you'd hope to see him succeed, and you know it. It has everything to do with style, and nothing with substance.

Substance: 23-11-1 vs. 9-18
Style: 7.34 yards per carry, 76.4 passer rating.

Give me the numbers on the first line, and I couldn't possibly care less what numbers you put on the next line. I don't care if he runs the single wing, throws on every single down, or weighs 275 pounds and runs over people, a win is a win.

[Buccaneer]

Thank you. To me, that's ultimately all that matters. How many yards of offense was the QB responsible for?

Now you can definitely make a case that the increased injury risk might not be worth it (as in you'd rather have a 'standard' QB throwing for a few less yards total). But I'm also guessing Vick's athleticism saves him from a great number of sacks (effectively 'gaining' more yardage but not allowing the loss of yardage that most QBs would).
Elway and Young did the same thing but much better on the passing side. Some talk as if Vick is already in their class.

I also think about my dislike of Favre. His pass-at-all-cost recklessness turns me off as well. I guess I have been too much brainwashed by the West Coast offense for it fits my interest - steady, unreckless and good results - if you have a QB that can check off on the receivers.

[GrantDawg]

To me, Vick is not Mr Excitement and would rather choose to spend my entertainment time elsewhere. It's a luxury, esp. since I have no vested interest (the opposite, in fact) in him or the team. I say that about any player who is hyped to be the greatest of all time when it is more wishful thinking or strongly being a self-fulfilled prophesy.

Signed,
A guy in the blue jersey among a sea of red
You know this is where our conflicts lie. I really don't care if he is "Mr. Excitement" or the "greatest of all time." I also do not care if he puts up Manning style numbers, or if he never throws 300 yards. All I care about is if the Falcons win. If they can win running the wishbone, and throw the ball three times a game, I would be happy. If they win with Vick throwing 50 passes a game, then I would be happy.

The Falcons win with Vick. They win because of his legs more than his arm. Since that is the case, RUN, VICK, RUN.

[Ben E Lou]

After looking at the stats, I have to think I'm dead wrong on this. He's been sacked the most of any QB in the league, for the 3rd most sack yardage. I can't imagine the O-line pass blocks that poorly.They're pretty bad. That's for sure. Did you see the Peppers fumble return? The entire pocket collapsed around him almost before he was finished with his three-step drop, and watching them week-in and week-out, that wasn't that uncommon to see.

[Ben E Lou]

Some talk as if Vick is already in their class.You keep alluding to and saying this, but for the life of me I can't recall *anyone* saying anything like that, and I follow the Falcons every week, for goodness' sake.

[Buccaneer]

That is true. Just like those rooting against the Vikings because of Moss or the Eagles because of TO or Packers because of Favre or Dolphins because of Marino or Broncos because of Elway or my case, the Air Force Falcons because of the @%#$! wishbone they have to run. The NFL is driven by style. Just like one should not discount a style because it is different, one should not have to accept a style for whatever reason.

[GrantDawg]

After looking at the stats, I have to think I'm dead wrong on this. He's been sacked the most of any QB in the league, for the 3rd most sack yardage. I can't imagine the O-line pass blocks that poorly.
You haven't watch them play. They are honestly the worst pass-blocking line I've ever seen. Peppers was getting double teamed the whole game yesterday, and he was still running through them like wet paper. I know Peppers is a good lineman, but they have made lesser linemen look like Peppers. They are pretty good at the run-zone blocking that Gibbs has been teaching, but they have actually gotten worse than last year pass blocking (Weiner ought to be arrested, because he is stealing money).

[GrantDawg]

Whatever. If Vick were a young QB in the mold that you prefer, you'd hope to see him succeed, and you know it. It has everything to do with style, and nothing with substance.

Substance: 23-11-1 vs. 9-18
Style: 7.34 yards per carry, 76.4 passer rating.

Give me the numbers on the first line, and I couldn't possibly care less what numbers you put on the next line. I don't care if he runs the single wing, throws on every single down, or weighs 275 pounds and runs over people, a win is a win.
Sometimes we think so much a like it is scary.

[cthomer5000]

Elway and Young did the same thing but much better on the passing side.
really?


Most rushing yards in a season by John Elway: 304

Most rushing yards in a season by Steve Young: 537

Micheal Vick: 889 and counting

[GrantDawg]

Elway and Young did the same thing but much better on the passing side. Some talk as if Vick is already in their class.


And they would be idiots. Vick is no where near that level. He is not even a top 5 qb in the NFL right now. Someday he might be, though.

[GrantDawg]

Ben, why don't we just tag team on this stuff from now on. :)

[Ben E Lou]

Ben, why don't we just tag team on this stuff from now on. :)Those two pairs of near-simultaneous posts with nearly the same content were scary. :eek:

[Buccaneer]

From nfl.com in 2002


We're not talking about the same speed, but you can compare Vick's emergence to that of John Elway in the mid-80's. As with Vick, you had to plan for John Elway. He certainly wasn't as fast as Vick, but at that time, his ability to run with the football was fantastic. He made plays with his legs and he also beat you with his arm -- just like Vick does now.

Vick is doing the same things Elway was doing when he came into the league, but Vick is doing them at a faster pace.

[Buccaneer]

Ben, why don't we just tag team on this stuff from now on. :)
No fair. You Georgia boys already dominate. :)

[cthomer5000]

So you're jumping on us about something some random idiot said two years agao?
even though statistics overwhelmingly prove that Vick is much more of a running threat than either of those two QB's were?

[GrantDawg]

From nfl.com in 2002
So you're jumping on us about something some random idiot said two years agao?

[Ben E Lou]

Nah. You can't accurately try to put Vick in the mold of an Elway or Young, or even really a McNabb, for that matter. He's got a completely different skill set that he and his coaches are still learning how to maximize. His speed and quickness put him in another class. It is up to the Falcons' coaching staff and to him to learn how to best use those skills to win football games. So far, they're doing a pretty good job, and it certainly appears that the potential is there for continued improvement. I liked seeing them lining him up as a wingback a couple of times yesterday and using him as a decoy. There are plenty of options that an innovative and imaginative coaching staff can and will explore with him.

[Ben E Lou]

So you're jumping on us about something some <s>random idiot</s> guys who are trying to make money for the NFL by marketing their most marketable player said two years agao?Fixed it for ya. ;)

[Buccaneer]

That idiot was Art Shell in a NFL-sanctioned article. Besides, I couldn't find any of those articles at Espn.com during the great hype of Mr. Excitement (around the time of the Vikings game). But I guess we all know how espn operates.

You guys think I'm irrational and biased, y'all gotta read the Tampa Bay Bucs boards. They make me sound like a Vick ass-licker.

[Ben E Lou]

That idiot was Art Shell in a NFL-sanctioned article.See my post above. Of COURSE the NFL is going to sanction that sort of thing! They're a profit-making machine, and marketing Vick just makes sense. Surely you're enough of a realist to understand that how that side of things works.

[FBPro]

That idiot was Art Shell in a NFL-sanctioned article. Besides, I couldn't find any of those articles at Espn.com during the great hype of Mr. Excitement (around the time of the Vikings game). But I guess we all know how espn operates.

You guys think I'm irrational and biased, y'all gotta read the Tampa Bay Bucs boards. They make me sound like a Vick ass-licker.

Who gives a F what the Bucs board says........who's gonna be HOME watching the playoffs on TV....? Bucs. Nuff said..

[Buccaneer]

SD, you bring up a much-discussed debate - "speed and quickness". They say that about many star RBs in the past but doesn't that significantly reduce the player's lifespan? Weren't there quite a bit of talk last season during his injury about really reducing his reliance on "speed and quickness" so as to make him last longer in the NFL?

[ISiddiqui]

Indeed, Skydog. Vick has a totally different skill set. And I think that has made him very raw as a passer. It seems no one has really worked with him on the passing game that much because he could always make plays with his legs when he couldn't make the passing play. It's just now he is learning the intracacies of the passing game. The kids has huge talent. A big arm and can make some amazing throws, but he just has to learn about defenses and how to deal with passing in the NFL.

[Buccaneer]

HAHA! Art Shell! He's a total moron and you expect us to take anything from him seriously?
Ok but I don't think he was the only one. He may have just been echoing what others want to hear or wish.

[ISiddiqui]

That idiot was Art Shell in a NFL-sanctioned article.

HAHA! Art Shell! He's a total moron and you expect us to take anything from him seriously?

[Buccaneer]

See my post above.
That should be a QOTM, if we had one.

[Buccaneer]

Who gives a F what the Bucs board says........who's gonna be HOME watching the playoffs on TV....? Bucs. Nuff said..
For the same reason anyone would care what Falcons fans say? ;)

[Ben E Lou]

Indeed, Skydog. Vick has a totally different skill set. And I think that has made him very raw as a passer. It seems no one has really worked with him on the passing game that much because he could always make plays with his legs when he couldn't make the passing play. It's just now he is learning the intracacies of the passing game. The kids has huge talent. A big arm and can make some amazing throws, but he just has to learn about defenses and how to deal with passing in the NFL.I agree totally on the point about not having been worked as hard on the passing game. Combine that with the fact that he's still quite young (24), and you see why I believe that he still has upside. He has unquestionably shown a desire to learn to be a better passer. If you counted up the times when he has erred on deciding whether or not to run with it this year, I'd be willing to be that you'd find out that he's chosen to pass when he should have run it more, simply because he's pressured himself to shed the image of being a "run-first" QB. He'll likely get better at deciding when to hold it for another count, when to throw it away, and when to take off and run with it. Reading defenses will continue to come with experience. Normally, with a young QB, the public is reminded to be patient. For a team as woeful as the Falcons, he's set the bar *awfully* high for himself by leading the team to the playoffs in his first two full seasons as a starter. I definitely see him as a 24-year-old young QB, a work in progress.

[Easy Mac]

HAHA! Art Shell! He's a total moron and you expect us to take anything from him seriously?
Right, he's only 54-38 as a head coach...he's a complete idiot.

[Easy Mac]

Who gives a F what the Bucs board says........who's gonna be HOME watching the playoffs on TV....? Bucs. Nuff said..
Super Bowl wins since Vick came into the league:
Falcons: 0
Bucs: 1

I think the Bucs fans can talk more than the Falcons.

[FBPro]

Let them talk all they want, but just as they don't care what we say why should I care what they say. Besides, unless it is THIS season it is ancient history....

[Buccaneer]

I agree totally on the point about not having been worked as hard on the passing game. Combine that with the fact that he's still quite young (24), and you see why I believe that he still has upside. He has unquestionably shown a desire to learn to be a better passer. If you counted up the times when he has erred on deciding whether or not to run with it this year, I'd be willing to be that you'd find out that he's chosen to pass when he should have run it more, simply because he's pressured himself to shed the image of being a "run-first" QB. He'll likely get better at deciding when to hold it for another count, when to throw it away, and when to take off and run with it. Reading defenses will continue to come with experience. Normally, with a young QB, the public is reminded to be patient. For a team as woeful as the Falcons, he's set the bar *awfully* high for himself by leading the team to the playoffs in his first two full seasons as a starter. I definitely see him as a 24-year-old young QB, a work in progress.
I generally agree with this except that there is a prevailing thought (as evident in this thread) that there is nothing wrong with being a run-first QB. If he (and the coaches?) are pressuring himself to shed that label, maybe that shouldn't be a big part of his game? Elway had happy-feet early on but they knew that it should be used to get out of jams.

[Ben E Lou]

Actually, the Shell quote, and my comments about a 24-year-old QB, got me curious as to where Vick "should" be on the development curve right now. Here are passer ratings for the QB's that Easy mentioned as being ahead of Vick this year in total yards.

Favre: 72.2
McNabb: 77.8
Culpepper: 83.3
Vick: 76.6 (to date)
Manning: 94.7
Green: DNP
Brooks: not full-time starter yet
Delhomme: not full-time starter
Bulger: DNP
Plummer: 75.0
Carr: 69.5

Looks like that other than Manning, who no one comes close to, Vick at age 24 compares favorably as a passer to the others. Of the current Top 12 QB's in the league, only Manning, McNabb, and Culpepper had better seasons as passers at age 24 than Vick is having.

I'll say it again--this kid has got potential. Be patient with him as a passer.

[Buccaneer]

Weren't some of those QBs in their rookie year at age 24?

[Easy Mac]

Yes, but in their 4th year, they all had better passer ratings than Vick except for Green, Delhomme (neither had played yet), Culpepper (who had 2 previous seasons in the 90's), and Plummer (who I don't think people mistake for a good QB).

[Ben E Lou]

I generally agree with this except that there is a prevailing thought (as evident in this thread) that there is nothing wrong with being a run-first QB. If he (and the coaches?) are pressuring himself to shed that label, maybe that shouldn't be a big part of his game? Elway had happy-feet early on but they knew that it should be used to get out of jams.Well, if you can think run-first and win, then there isn't anything wrong with being a run-first QB. Just because you don't like a run-first QB doesn't make it inherently bad. My understanding is that the coaching staff has had to actually *encourage* him to run. They've got some run-pass option rollouts in the package for him, and they had to flat-out tell him to think run first at one point earlier in the season. Mora indicated that he feels like Vick listens to his critics too much at times and tries to mold his game accordingly. Again, we're talking about someone with a unique and special set of skills. That's silly to compare him to Elway having happy feet. Did you miss it? Elway never rushed for more than 304 yards in a season, while Vick has a legit chance to surpass 1,000 this year, and he had 777 in his other full season as a starter. His running is an entirely different kind of threat from Elway's or Young's or even McNabb's. He, and the Falcons, would be crazy to take that threat away. Besides, it's not like he's running 15-20 times a game. No, he's carried 117 times this year--less than 8.5 carries per game. However, because he's a threat to get a first down or even go all the way every time he takes off, the defense HAS to account for it. He's run for 47 first downs this year--47! By comparison, Duckett and Dunn *combined* have run for 64. Well over 40% of his runs have gone for either a first down or a touchdown. Why in the world would they want to back off on his running????

[Ben E Lou]

Weren't some of those QBs in their rookie year at age 24?Not a single one.

[Ben E Lou]

Yes, but in their 4th year, they all had better passer ratings than Vick except for Green, Delhomme (neither had played yet), Culpepper (who had 2 previous seasons in the 90's), and Plummer (who I don't think people mistake for a good QB).Well, in terms of true development, he's really just now entering his third year. Playing time was very limited as a rookie (2 starts, 113 passes), and of course last year (4 starts, 100 passes). As far as where they were in their careers:

Favre: 72.2--3rd season overall, 2nd full season as starter
McNabb: 77.8--2nd season overall, 1st full season as starter (6 starts, 216 passes in previous season)
Culpepper: 83.3--3rd season overall, 2nd full season as starter
Vick: 76.6 (to date)--4th season overall, 2nd full season as starter
Manning: 94.7--3rd season overall, 3rd full season as starter
Green: DNP
Brooks: not full-time starter yet
Delhomme: not full-time starter
Bulger: DNP
Plummer: 75.0--Actully I screwed his up. He was born on 12/19/74, so '99 was his 24-year-old season: 50.8 passer rating that year in his 3rd season overall, 2nd full season as starter (started 9 games in '97, 16 in '98)
Carr: 69.5--2nd season overall, 2nd full season as starter

I'm not saying that his necessarily means that much, other than to remind myself and everyone that young QB's--even ones who move on to better things--don't usually have impressive passing numbers in their second full season as a starter.

[Ben E Lou]

Madden has a much better record, but he's a blithering idiot.:D

[ISiddiqui]

Right, he's only 54-38 as a head coach...he's a complete idiot.

What does record have to do with intelligence? Madden has a much better record, but he's a blithering idiot.