Multiplayer FOF acting all "buggy" all the sudden?

[stevew]

In the wigfl it seemed to change about 5-10 players positions per team(usually from silb to mlb, or stuff like that). Also it seems to be disregarding depth charts at will, even when all the normal stuff that causes them to mess up isn't being done(like signing players on game day, and not having enough players at a certain position). This has to be a new patch related issue, as it hasnt happened in 5 previous seasons. It keeps reverting me back to the 4/3 defense, which is starting to piss me off.

[albionmoonlight]

Obvious question, but have you tried support AT solecismic?

[stevew]

Obvious answer, perhaps its just me?

[gstelmack]

I've reported an issue in the past where post-TC / right before preseason (basically the export from "run training camp"), the game would go into human teams and decide who should be 3-4 and who should be 4-3. This involves switching all ILB and DTs to appropriate positions. I've had this happen twice (in 4 offseasons), but luckily caught it the second time and just exited out and re-ran the TC turn. It appeared to have been related to not shutting the game down between the last late FA turn and doing the TC turn, but I can't confirm. When it happened, exiting the game without saving and rerunning the turn fixed it (I think I tried rerunning with the game open, and that did not do anything).

If this is outside of the TC run, the only time I've ever seen this is with an invalid roster submitted, and if you submit a bad roster all bets are off; it looks like the scout just does a complete pass on your team, and if it thinks you should be in a different defense it will switch you. Are you stretching the new roster limits a bit too far?

[stevew]

Its possible that because i hadnt signed my 3rd round pick, the game is reading me as having 54 players on my roster(we are full at 53 already) I cut him tho, so we will see what is up after the next sim. Just so nobody thinks im exaggerating, here is the actual list of players who had their positions changed.

Hyland, Conrad Arizona Cardinals DT changed primary position to RDT

Stevens, Matt Arizona Cardinals S changed primary position to SS

Brooking, Keith Atlanta Falcons ILB changed primary position to MLB

Boone, Troy Atlanta Falcons DT changed primary position to RDT

Driver, Donald Atlanta Falcons WR changed primary position to SE

Stevenson, Adrian Atlanta Falcons OLB changed primary position to WLB

Copeland, Sam Baltimore Ravens DT changed primary position to NT

Wooden, A.J. Baltimore Ravens DT changed primary position to NT

Johnson, Jarret Baltimore Ravens DE changed primary position to LDE

Farber, Matthew Baltimore Ravens OLB changed primary position to WLB

Draft, Chris Buffalo Bills ILB changed primary position to MLB

Wheeler, Kelvin Buffalo Bills DT changed primary position to RDT

Jenkins, Kris Carolina Panthers DT changed primary position to LDT

Ryder, Shannon Chicago Bears DT changed primary position to RDT

Wayne, Nate Chicago Bears OLB changed primary position to SLB

Williams, Brian Cincinnati Bengals ILB changed primary position to MLB

Wynn, Kyle Dallas Cowboys T changed primary position to RT

Glover, La'Roi Dallas Cowboys DT changed primary position to LDT

Horn, Joe Denver Broncos WR changed primary position to FL

Carlson, Donnell Denver Broncos DE changed primary position to LDE

Surtain, Patrick Denver Broncos CB changed primary position to LCB

Eason, Nick Denver Broncos DT changed primary position to LDT

Bell, Kendrell Detroit Lions ILB changed primary position to MLB

Everett, Seth Detroit Lions DT changed primary position to RDT

Gold, Ian Detroit Lions OLB changed primary position to SLB

Cunningham, Kerry Detroit Lions CB changed primary position to LCB

DeVries, Jared Green Bay Wigs DE changed primary position to LDE

McKenzie, Mike Green Bay Wigs S changed primary position to SS

Peterson, Kenny Green Bay Wigs DT changed primary position to LDT

Wayne, Reggie Indianapolis Colts WR changed primary position to FL

Cohen, Dale Indianapolis Colts CB changed primary position to LCB

Thrash, James Jacksonville Jaguars WR changed primary position to FL

Bryant, Fernando Jacksonville Jaguars CB changed primary position to LCB

Taylor, Jason Miami Dolphins DE changed primary position to RDE

Grams, Stan Minnesota Vikings DT changed primary position to RDT

Johnson, Ray Lee Minnesota Vikings DE changed primary position to LDE

Downs, Harvey New England Patriots ILB changed primary position to MLB

Henry, Kelvin New England Patriots ILB changed primary position to MLB

Thomas, Randy New England Patriots G changed primary position to LG

Brockermeyer, Blake New England Patriots T changed primary position to RT

Gregg, Kelly New Orleans Saints DT changed primary position to LDT

Howard, Ronald New Orleans Saints DT changed primary position to LDT

Hoover, Vince New Orleans Saints ILB changed primary position to MLB

Battle, Julian New Orleans Saints CB changed primary position to LCB

Kerney, Jason New York Giants ILB changed primary position to MLB

Petitgout, Luke New York Giants T changed primary position to RT

Smith, Justin New York Giants DE changed primary position to LDE

Peterson, William New York Giants CB changed primary position to LCB

Harrison, Rodney New York Giants S changed primary position to FS

Garcia, Rich New York Giants DT changed primary position to RDT

Cowart, Sam New Jersey Jets ILB changed primary position to MLB

Wedderburn, Chuck New Jersey Jets DT changed primary position to RDT

Lelie, Ashley New Jersey Jets WR changed primary position to FL

McKenzie, Kareem New Jersey Jets T changed primary position to LT

Hardy, Walt New Jersey Jets CB changed primary position to RCB

Buchanon, Phillip Oakland Raiders CB changed primary position to RCB

Bull, Perry Philadelphia Eagles DT changed primary position to RDT

Brahms, Marshall Philadelphia Eagles G changed primary position to RG

Huskey, Daniel Philadelphia Eagles DE changed primary position to RDE

Slaughter, T.J. Pittsburgh Steelers ILB changed primary position to MLB

Foote, Larry Pittsburgh Steelers ILB changed primary position to MLB

Banta-Cain, Tully Pittsburgh Steelers ILB changed primary position to MLB

Conway, Bruce Pittsburgh Steelers DT changed primary position to LDT

Page, Lamont Pittsburgh Steelers ILB changed primary position to MLB

Ward, Hines Pittsburgh Steelers WR changed primary position to FL

Jammer, Quentin Pittsburgh Steelers CB changed primary position to RCB

Walker, Ramon Pittsburgh Steelers S changed primary position to FS

O'Neal, Mo San Diego Chargers ILB changed primary position to MLB

Davis, Sammy San Diego Chargers CB changed primary position to LCB

Lassiter, Kwamie San Diego Chargers S changed primary position to FS

Redding, Cory San Diego Chargers DT changed primary position to LDT

Mines, Paul San Diego Chargers DT changed primary position to RDT

Clark, Phillip Seattle Seahawks ILB changed primary position to MLB

Newsome, Rico Seattle Seahawks ILB changed primary position to MLB

Anderson, Willie Seattle Seahawks T changed primary position to LT

Pryce, Trevor Seattle Seahawks DE changed primary position to RDE

McIntyre, Lincoln Seattle Seahawks DT changed primary position to RDT

Dotson, Amos San Francisco 49ers ILB changed primary position to MLB

Lloyd, Brandon San Francisco 49ers WR changed primary position to FL

Mannino, Blaine St. Louis Rams DE changed primary position to LDE

Hutton, Scottie St. Louis Rams OLB changed primary position to SLB

Barber, Ronde St. Louis Rams CB changed primary position to LCB

Johnson, Bryant Tampa Bay Sinns WR changed primary position to FL

Jenkins, Kerry Tampa Bay Sinns G changed primary position to LG

Dunn, Justin Tennessee Titans ILB changed primary position to MLB

Jansen, Jon Washington Redskins T changed primary position to LT

Robbins, Barret Washington Redskins G changed primary position to LG

Gohl, Broderick Washington Redskins DE changed primary position to LDE

Marion, Brock Washington Redskins S changed primary position to SS

Fredrickson, Craig Washington Redskins DT changed primary position to RDT

Frankin, Aubrayo Cleveland Browns DT changed primary position to RDT

Briggs, Donny Cleveland Browns DT changed primary position to RDT

Anderson, Bennie Cleveland Browns G changed primary position to LG

Wong, Kailee Cleveland Browns OLB changed primary position to WLB

Logan, Mike Cleveland Browns S changed primary position to FS

Fletcher, London Houston Texans ILB changed primary position to SILB

Harris, Napoleon Houston Texans ILB changed primary position to SILB

Lee, James Houston Texans DT changed primary position to NT

Ogden, Brent Houston Texans DT changed primary position to NT

Craig, Louie Houston Texans ILB changed primary position to SILB

Rivera, Marco Houston Texans G changed primary position to LG

Douglas, Hugh Houston Texans DE changed primary position to LDE

Vincent, Troy Houston Texans CB changed primary position to RCB

Harris, Napoleon Houston Texans ILB changed primary position to WILB

[gstelmack]

Well, at least that means it's not the 4-3/3-4 thing...

[stevew]

Well, at least that means it's not the 4-3/3-4 thing...


Well, a lot of the guys were changed from silb to mlb to fit a 4/3 setup. And RDT to NT.

[KWhit]

Stevew:

Was your problem also during or right after the training camp stage?

[stevew]

Stevew:

Was your problem also during or right after the training camp stage?

Yes

[chinaski]

It was immediately following training camp. Im pretty sure all teams we set to human controlled prior to camp as well. Really sucks, since all of the guys who it decided to switch on me took substantial rating hits.

[Flasch186]

so i guess the tweener export between the last day of FA and TC is SUPER important now.

[KWhit]

You guys need to email support about this.

[albionmoonlight]

Am I crazy or are positions like OLB and CB not even legal positions in 2k4? Isn't everyone either a WLB or a SLB? Or a LCB or RCB?

[VPI97]

I just simmed IHOF up to and through Training Camp and didn't see any position changes.

[Kodos]

"Mulletplayer" FOF league? Sounds interesting.

[stevew]

"Mulletplayer" FOF league? Sounds interesting.
nice catch :)

[Kodos]

Hey! No editing!!!

[gstelmack]

You guys need to email support about this.
I have, but this is the first someone else has seen something similar (glad to note that this is post TC like my situation was). See http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=21767 for my original post on this topic almost a year ago.

VPI: this does not happen every time, but I've seen it happen twice now. The game gets into some state where it decides to validate everyone's roster before the first preseason sim, and I have no idea what causes it (although it may be related to the fact that computer teams use this timeframe to finish filling out rosters to legal numbers, which may trigger it). The fix I'm using now is I check the transaction log after running TC, and if I see position switches I exit the game without saving, restart, reload everyone's imports, and re-run TC. That fixed the issue last time I saw it. I'm not surprised you did not see it on your run. I've had this issue on the 5.0 versions (no, I don't remember specifically which ones), so it's not new to 5.1.

Stevew: Does wig keep backups? If so I'd recommend going back and re-running the TC turn.

[Celeval]

Check your multiplayer AI settings.

[duckman]

If you have a hold-out or an unsigned rookie, you will have problems with position switching and depth charts. Thul sent an e-mail to Jim over at the HFL board and was told about the cause of the problem. I hope this helps.

[Thul]

Yup, if you have a holdout, don't make them inactive. The AI will count the holdout if he's inactive and view you as having an illegal roster (thus redoing your depth chart and active/inactive).

This may not be the same problem, but is worth mentioning. Luckily the solution is easy enough (i.e. just leave them active).

If you have a hold-out or an unsigned rookie, you will have problems with position switching and depth charts. Thul sent an e-mail to Jim over at the HFL board and was told about the cause of the problem. I hope this helps.

[gstelmack]

Check your multiplayer AI settings.
Already done, they're off everywhere it's possible to turn them off.

To Duckman/Thule: When this happens it hits multiple teams, not just one. And it's only a post-TC / pre-preseason 1 issue.

[gstelmack]

Okay, I can confirm this as a severe issue in 5.1b. I just tried to run my office league Training Camp turn, and it is setting the depth charts for every team post-TC and before any preseason games are run. I've restored from a backup save file and same thing. Some of these changes make no sense; I've got 2 LCBs and 3 RCBs on my roster, but the game decided one of the RCBs would make a better LCB and went ahead and switched his position. So it is definitely not limited to 3-4 to 4-3 and back types of switches.

I'm emailing support, since I've got a backed up saved-game handy that shows this, and it seems pretty reproducible on my box.

[gstelmack]

If you have a hold-out or an unsigned rookie, you will have problems with position switching and depth charts. Thul sent an e-mail to Jim over at the HFL board and was told about the cause of the problem. I hope this helps.
If an AI team has a holdout, will this cause ALL teams to get hit with this? I just noticed in our league that Miami has a holdout RB who signs after the position switches. Maybe I need to try simming a bunch of times and see if the RB ends his holdout before TC.

[sachmo71]

If an AI team has a holdout, will this cause ALL teams to get hit with this? I just noticed in our league that Miami has a holdout RB who signs after the position switches. Maybe I need to try simming a bunch of times and see if the RB ends his holdout before TC.

Not according to Jim. The situation described by Thul and Duckman caused the roster of one team to be illegal, and resulted in the computer taking over the roster. No one else had these issues.

[VPI97]

Already done, they're off everywhere it's possible to turn them off. I know it's probably overkill...but are you sure? Remember, single player settings aren't the same as multi-player settings. If the MP window is open when you go into Global Options, the settings there are for MP...if the MP window is not open, you're seeing the single player settings. There's a difference.

[gstelmack]

Okay, I re-ran the turn a bunch of times, and finally got one where the position switches did not happen. So our league can move on, but I've still got the backup saved off in case Jim asks for it.

Each time the log is slightly different, so there has to be some transaction causing it to get messed up.

[gstelmack]

I got in touch with support, sent them my league file, and they've reproduced the issue. According to support, there is a bug (not 5.1-related) with the computer determining human vs. AI control during the training camp turn in multiplayer leagues that have a mix of human vs. AI teams. It won't occur in single player, and it won't occur in MP leagues that are all humans (explaining why I've had so much trouble finding another league with the same issue).

The workaround suggested is to manually set all teams to human control right before hitting the "Begin Training Camp" button, and set them back right after. I've also found personally (not suggested by support) that re-running the turn enough will give you a run where it doesn't bite, but support's workaround is a much better one.

No patch for this issue is planned as there is a workaround and it's only going to hit a small percentage of MP leagues, and most of those that do get hit probably only need to switch a couple of teams that are on AI control waiting for new owners, and it only affects one stage in the game. I'm the lucky one with probably the worst case for this, having only 7 human teams and 25 AI teams (that I get to switch manually ;), but Jim is keeping it in mind for any future patches / updates / new versions.

I feel better that it's finally been confirmed and that I'm not going completely nuts. And I can deal with the workaround now that I know what's going on.

[stevew]

I got in touch with support, sent them my league file, and they've reproduced the issue. According to support, there is a bug (not 5.1-related) with the computer determining human vs. AI control during the training camp turn in multiplayer leagues that have a mix of human vs. AI teams. It won't occur in single player, and it won't occur in MP leagues that are all humans (explaining why I've had so much trouble finding another league with the same issue).

The workaround suggested is to manually set all teams to human control right before hitting the "Begin Training Camp" button, and set them back right after. I've also found personally (not suggested by support) that re-running the turn enough will give you a run where it doesn't bite, but support's workaround is a much better one.

No patch for this issue is planned as there is a workaround and it's only going to hit a small percentage of MP leagues, and most of those that do get hit probably only need to switch a couple of teams that are on AI control waiting for new owners, and it only affects one stage in the game. I'm the lucky one with probably the worst case for this, having only 7 human teams and 25 AI teams (that I get to switch manually ;), but Jim is keeping it in mind for any future patches / updates / new versions.

I feel better that it's finally been confirmed and that I'm not going completely nuts. And I can deal with the workaround now that I know what's going on.

This had been the first year that Wig had actually put a few teams on "computer."