Divisional Playoff Football

[TroyF]

Freeney was held BADLY on that last play. Horrible no call there.

[kingfc22]

Big 3rd down conversion there for the Pats. Keep the drive going and they don't have to settle for a long FG attempt.

[TroyF]

I think Freeney was hurt on the non holding call. He had his arm yanked hard. He went out and that started this drive.

Don't give me any crap about being a NE hater either. It's just an observation.

[JAG]

Impressive drive from NE.

[kingfc22]

Woot!!!

[TroyF]

Freeney was held on the TD play. Again.

If the Colts get a single holding call the rest of the way, they should just walk off the field.

[kingfc22]

It's all setup for Manning now. Can he lead his team back late in the game, on the road and in the playoffs? Or will he blow it like always.

[TroyF]

Correction. . . after watching the replay, it was a clean block. Freeney went outside and lost contain, my bad.

[TLK]

The Pats stratagy today has worked perfectly. I couldn't believe when I looked up and there was under two minutes left in the third. The Colts have to do something on this drive....

[Easy Mac]

I was wondering if I was the only one noticing Troy.. it seems they've gone from not calling holding in the secondary to not calling holding on the line.

[henry296]

Good lord, ANOTHER stupid play by NE. This is amazing to watch.

As for the helmut to helmut, Simms explanation was dead on. It's not a foul in the context of the game. He became a ball carrier when he caught the ball and made a football move. The NFL office gets to look at it differently though. That will draw a fine.

I agree with Simms. Other than the fact that Pennington is a QB, the Personal Foul call on Porter yesterday for hitting Pennington in the chest with his helmet isn't that much different.

[JAG]

It's all setup for Manning now. Can he lead his team back late in the game, on the road and in the playoffs? Or will he blow it like always.

Give me a break. You can admit the circumstances are a bit unfavorable for him, can you not? These are not great conditions for throwing (it's not like Brady's lighting up the field) and being down by a good bit takes away from the play-action pass, one of Peyton's strong points. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't lead them back because Indy hasn't been able to run the ball pretty much all game and the protection from their OL has been shoddy.

[TroyF]

Give me a break. You can admit the circumstances are a bit unfavorable for him, can you not? These are not great conditions for throwing (it's not like Brady's lighting up the field) and being down by a good bit takes away from the play-action pass, one of Peyton's strong points. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't lead them back because Indy hasn't been able to run the ball pretty much all game and the protection from their OL has been shoddy.


Doesn't matter. He's gotta find a way to do it sometime. Every QB has THE GAME. Manning needs to have it. Circumstances against him, horrible field conditions, tough opponent. He's move the team most of the game. He needs to come up with a big fourth.

On the other hand, I'll be watching the holding penalties VERY closely. That hold on Freeney was huge. I still can't believe it was a no call. The refs need to keep the flags in their pockets if the Colts happen to have a blatant one.

Manning needs to step up and he needs to do it now. If he doesn't, he'll have to deal with the criticism for the off season.

[JAG]

New England's D has been pretty inspired today.

[temley06]

The Pats are playing a heck of a game, their linebacking corp is absolutely shuting down Manning.

[TroyF]

That last play was exactly what's wrong with Manning in big games. He had plenty of time and he had two wide open receivers. (as much as Simms wanted to be in the Pats jock straps, there were two wideouts wide open on the play)

He missed em and the Colts now punt. That's not scheme. That's not great defense. That's a highly skilled player not making a throw when he needs to do it. Period.

[Ksyrup]

This isn't the kind of game a QB steps up and wins it for his team. If Indy loses, it's not because of Manning. This game is being decided by the running games, and it shouldn't even be as close as it is. NE is killing Indy in the running game.

[Cringer]

I wish there was a way to see what the Patriots coaching staff could do with a defensive unit like the Packers, in other words a crappy one. Every thing I heard all week was how the Pats just did not have enough guys to match up against the Colts weapons, yet here they are doing that and more.

[cody8200]

Crappy pass by Brady...could have won the game with that pass.

[Easy Mac]

Have the colts run anything other than a screen pass or a James run on 1st or 2nd down?

[cody8200]

Have the colts run anything other than a screen pass or a James run on 1st or 2nd down?


Yeh I was wondering the same damn thing

[temley06]

This game is about to end, if the Colts don't stop them here.

[Easy Mac]

well, they called holding... on the colts D...

[kingfc22]

If Indy's defense allows another 6+ minute drive here, then this game is all but over.

[cody8200]

That pass interference call...bullshit.

[Ksyrup]

Have the colts run anything other than a screen pass or a James run on 1st or 2nd down?
No kidding. But that's Peyton Manning's fault...

Seriously, why would they not try a couple of long passes, throw it up and see what happens? The weather isn't favorable, but it's not like they are doing much else. At least, go back to the hurry up.

[TroyF]

That ball was not catchable. What a horrible call. That's just disgusting to watch. HORRIBLE call.

[Easy Mac]

Yeh I was wondering the same damn thing
I understand NE has pwned you on offense, but you keep sticking to screen passes and they'll sit on you. I think Indy had to try and keep them honest, and they haven't.

[TroyF]

Games over.

[ISiddiqui]

Yep, the Pats are getting all the calls... even Pats fans have to admit that.

[kingfc22]

That ball was not catchable. What a horrible call. That's just disgusting to watch. HORRIBLE call. It should have been at least a holding call. You can't touch a guy past 5 yards.

[temley06]

What crappy tackling, has Morris even made 1 tackle? What a joke of a middle linebacker.

[cody8200]

agreed...of course thats a difference of 12 or so yards.

[kingfc22]

Great run by Dillon. Indy's defense is playing with zero attitude.

[spleen1015]

This team will never get over the hump with a defense like this. They can't tackle for shit.

[cody8200]

so the colts will lose...i blame dungy. Just called plays much too damn conservative. Fucking annoying.

[ISiddiqui]

Great run by Dillon. Indy's defense is playing with zero attitude.
Yep. It's like they've given up already.

[Ksyrup]

As a Broncos fan, all I can say is, what comes around goes around. We can't get past Indy, they can't get past NE.

[Senator]

These threads are the weakest excuse for post padding I have ever seen.


/bitter manning fan

[Ksyrup]

so the colts will lose...i blame dungy. Just called plays much too damn conservative. Fucking annoying.
I know. This game feels like watching FSU on offense.

[temley06]

The critics were right, the Colts are a bunch of pussies. Until they rip the roof off of that stupid dome they are destined to be playoff has-beens. They just don't belong outside.

[kingfc22]

So I guess this means we don't have to hear about all the Colts weapons for the rest of this season.

[spleen1015]

Ball game. Mabye next year.

[TroyF]

I understand NE has pwned you on offense, but you keep sticking to screen passes and they'll sit on you. I think Indy had to try and keep them honest, and they haven't.


Exactly. The inside out thing was a great idea, but they never bounced back. They dropped more INT's this half and they are going to lose the game.

The Colts play scared when they play the Pats. It's like watching Texas/OU. Doesn't matter about the talent, doesn't matter who SHOULD win, it's all about the result. They had their chances to pic Brady off and to make plays on offense and failed miserably again. One team makes plays, the other doesn't.

The Pats are primed to win the Super Bowl again now. Ben in a big game against that D? Hell no. McNabb? Vick? Get real. It's not about the talent, it's not about Beli being a great coach. . . it's about pure fear other teams play with when they play the Pats.

Again, I go back to that third down throw. Plenty of time. Wide open receivers. Throw into the ground. Brady completes the ball in that situation, Manning doesn't. Plain and simple.

[TroyF]

So I guess this means we don't have to hear about all the Colts weapons for the rest of this season.

Just be like the OU fans man. PRAY EVERY SINGLE NIGHT the Colts keep Dungy. As long as he's on the sideline and you have Beli, you'll win. That ever changes, you'll get beat. It's that simple.

[temley06]

Manning's career is looking more and more like Marino's. Although Danny did make to one SB

[Buccaneer]

My wife (and I), being big fans of Montana, has compared Brady to him - unflappable, field general, and not missing on 3rd down throws. Having Dillon also helps.

Another Dome team bites the dust. One more to go.

[temley06]

Is this post padding?

[kingfc22]

I'm a Niners fan (ugh, shoot me) so I could care less if they keep Dungy. Just like watching the "great one" lose another playoff game while former UM QB inches closer to his 3rd Super Bowl.

[kingfc22]

A bunch of pussies this Indy team is. Go back inside and have a track meet.

[Ragone]

New england at pittsburgh.. hmm.. that'll be a snoozefest.. 9-3

[mckerney]

Manning's career is looking more and more like Marino's. Although Danny did make to one SB

Manning is the best QB at exploiting a weak defense, but I think I may want to turn elsewhere for a QB in a big game against a top defense. I think I'd rather have Brady is a game like that.

[mckerney]

New england at pittsburgh.. hmm.. that'll be a snoozefest.. 9-3

Wasn't this game supposed to be a shootout. Some on ESPN were saying NE would need to score 30 to have a chance.

[Buccaneer]

Wasn't this game supposed to be a shootout. Some on ESPN were saying NE would need to score 30 to have a chance.
"ESPN" being the definitive word.

[temley06]

Manning is the best QB at exploiting a weak defense, but I think I may want to turn elsewhere for a QB in a big game against a top defense. I think I'd rather have Brady is a game like that.

You're exactly right. This game was lost during week 1. The only way Indy is going to get by NE is by having home field advantage.

[kingfc22]

So what happened to all that talk about the Pats having nobody in the secondary to play this week and how they would have no chance at stopping Manning and his trio of 1000 yd. wideouts.

[Easy Mac]

well, the colts never tried to throw past 3 yards, so we'll never know.

[Yossarian]

Guess Peyton's gonna get more time to work on his commercials...

[QuikSand]

It's hard for me to root for the Pats since they are traditional division rivals of the team I have supported my whole life... but...

There is a lot to like about this team. They just have so many things that I respect -- their offseason strategy, their innovative playcalling, their use of role-players so effectively, their general sense of selflessness, their ability to capitalize when granted an opportunity... good heavens. All the great "dynasties" in recent NFL history have yielded a sweep of hall-of-famers -- but this is such a "team" effort, I doubt it happens here. I almost can't help but root for the Patriots.

This week was, in a sense, the epitome. The Pats were overshadowed by the Colts and their justifiable hype from that offense. But the Patriots stood up to it, played well with the players they had, and put forth another very impressive effort. The fact that the Manning offense was slowed down is impressive, but this game was about more than that, even. Just a great team effort.

Wow. I am awestruck. Great football team.

[temley06]

NE has a great shot to win the SB again. This defense should tear up Pittsburgh. Whoever comes out of the NFC is just fodder.

[kingfc22]

What a dominating performance by the Pats. Should be a good game next week.

[Desnudo]

Bruschi for President!

[Buccaneer]

I think the Pats defense will murderize the rookie Roethlisberger next week.

QS: Well said.

[Aylmar]

The Pats are primed to win the Super Bowl again now. Ben in a big game against that D? Hell no. McNabb? Vick? Get real. It's not about the talent, it's not about Beli being a great coach. . . it's about pure fear other teams play with when they play the Pats.

You're spot on with your point about fear. The trouble with that theory is the Steelers aren't scared of the Pats. The 'mystique' doesn't mean anything to them. They beat them up on Halloween. The Pats were putting nine guys in the box routinely in the second half and the Steelers just kept shoving the ball down their throats. After yesterday, it's foolish of me to ask anyone to say that the Steelers will win, but to write them off as a stepping stone to destiny for New England because they struggled against the Jets is a mistake. Both teams will be pumped. It should be an excellent game.

[JAG]

It's hard for me to root for the Pats since they are traditional division rivals of the team I have supported my whole life... but...

There is a lot to like about this team. They just have so many things that I respect -- their offseason strategy, their innovative playcalling, their use of role-players so effectively, their general sense of selflessness, their ability to capitalize when granted an opportunity... good heavens. All the great "dynasties" in recent NFL history have yielded a sweep of hall-of-famers -- but this is such a "team" effort, I doubt it happens here. I almost can't help but root for the Patriots.

This week was, in a sense, the epitome. The Pats were overshadowed by the Colts and their justifiable hype from that offense. But the Patriots stood up to it, played well with the players they had, and put forth another very impressive effort. The fact that the Manning offense was slowed down is impressive, but this game was about more than that, even. Just a great team effort.

Wow. I am awestruck. Great football team.

Very good post. They are the most unique team I've seen since I've followed football.

[DaddyTorgo]

not to gloat...but...welcome to a good ole fashion NE-asskickin Payton. Couldn't post during the game cuz I don't have a TV by the computer, but WOOHOO!! Bring on Pittsburgh!

[mckerney]

Kind of makes you think about the meaning of 'Most Valuable'. In one way it shows his value to the team to play well, but it's in a game where he played horribly.

I'd agree without a doubt that Manning deserved the most outstanding player of the year, as he had the greatest statistical season by a QB ever. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't deserve the MVP award so hands down, but this game should show that some who thought Manning didn't deserve the MVP award weren't so crazy.

[DaddyTorgo]

That ball was not catchable. What a horrible call. That's just disgusting to watch. HORRIBLE call.
horrible call? horrible call?? he hooked Givens and spun him around away from the ball. Even if it wasn't pass-interference it would have been defensive holding so quit whining. Face it, the Colts got GAMED. OUTPLAYED. COMPLETELY.

[SirFozzie]

By the Way... (yes, this is a Foz Rant)

every single person who whined and cried this week how the Pats were destroying the field to somehow cheat and give them an unfair advantage against the Colts, should raise their hands and apologize individually to the New England groundskeepers about their misconceptions.

That field was snowed on for four quarters, and stood up great.

New England cheats, my ass.

(this is not just aimed at folks here, but the Daily Quickie guy on ESPN called it awful and said something like it was destroying a sense of fairness.)

[Buccaneer]

Foz, the definitive word in your post was "ESPN". They are in the business of over-hyping. SkyDog was right, I/we got to stop listening to yankee sportscasters.

[Ragone]

That field actually looked rather average.. not great.. but not chewed up as bad either..

[Desnudo]

You're spot on with your point about fear. The trouble with that theory is the Steelers aren't scared of the Pats. The 'mystique' doesn't mean anything to them. They beat them up on Halloween. The Pats were putting nine guys in the box routinely in the second half and the Steelers just kept shoving the ball down their throats. After yesterday, it's foolish of me to ask anyone to say that the Steelers will win, but to write them off as a stepping stone to destiny for New England because they struggled against the Jets is a mistake. Both teams will be pumped. It should be an excellent game.

I can't wait for next week. Should be one for the ages.

[DaddyTorgo]

i like the Pats chances against the Steelers this time around. Especially with a healthy C-Dillon. Don't forget he was injured and didn't play at all in the last game. With C-Dill the Pats are able to control the clock a lot better, which will keep Pittsburgh off the field. Bring it on baby!

[ISiddiqui]

NE has a great shot to win the SB again. This defense should tear up Pittsburgh. Whoever comes out of the NFC is just fodder.
Isn't that what was said in the NBA last year, that whoever comes out of the East was going to be fodder? Instead Detroit rocked the Lakers.

[miami_fan]

so the colts will lose...i blame dungy. Just called plays much too damn conservative. Fucking annoying.

Tony Dungy's fault? For playcalling on offense? Are you kidding me? Well if he gets the blame for the playcalling today, then he should get the credit...not Peyton Manning, not Tom Moore, etc,.....for the "greatest offensive season" Unbelievable

[cuervo72]

WAY TO GO TROTTIER!

Islanders Old-Timers game?

[EagleFan]

NE has a great shot to win the SB again. This defense should tear up Pittsburgh. Whoever comes out of the NFC is just fodder.

Just like that defense "tore up" Pittsburgh earlier this season?

[Desnudo]

Tony Dungy's fault? For playcalling on offense? Are you kidding me? Well if he gets the blame for the playcalling today, then he should get the credit...not Peyton Manning, not Tom Moore, etc,.....for the "greatest offensive season" Unbelievable

If I were Dungy I would have tried to ram the ball down the Patriots throat. They didn't give James the ball enough to succeed doing that and I think he could have. Every success they've had against the Patriots previously was based on James getting yards to set up the big play. I guess they forgot to double bag it this time.

[SackAttack]

New England cheats, my ass.

So, uh, how 'bout those holding non-calls, Foz? What's your take on those?
:D

[rkmsuf]

DOMINATION

The best quote I heard was Bruschi saying "What rule are they going to change next year?"

Outside of the Superbowl wins that might have been the Pats greatest win. Unbelievable performance particularly in the second half. Pretty much 30 minutes of perfect football.

It will be hard to duplicate next week.

[Eilim]

So, uh, how 'bout those holding non-calls, Foz? What's your take on those?
:D

Not sure how apparent it was on the television broadcast, but this was pretty bad on both sides of play by both teams.

I actually commented to the guy I went to the game with that it seemed they were so focused on the calls from 5 yards passed the line of scrimmage that they completely overlooked the mauling both teams were doing to eachother from the line of scrimmage back.

It just seemed to get progressively worse through the game as the weather got worse and players realized they weren't going to call anything in that area.

[gstelmack]

Not sure how apparent it was on the television broadcast, but this was pretty bad on both sides of play by both teams.
It was pretty apparent there, too. Although it wasn't obvious that it was happening every down, there were several plays where Colts O-Linemen were holding Pats rushers as well as the missed plays being pointed out here.

But hey, heaven forbid people not be able to find some reason the Colts lost other than that the Patriots cheat. This is getting flippin' ridiculous. The Patriots' defense beat the snot out of the Colts' offense stuffing the running game, the Colt's receivers couldn't handle the ball in the cold and the snow, and the Patriots' running game ran all over the Colts' defense. The Patriots are a better team, period, paragraph, end of discussion.

As has been pointed out innumerable times, there is offensive holding on every play if you want to find it. Despite all these "non-calls", the Colts still got more pressure on Brady than the Pats got on Manning, with a couple of sacks and several stuffs of Dillon.

So can we give it a rest? How about all of you that were picking on the Patriots' fans and wondering if we would be man enough to admit that the Colts were the better team stand up and admit that the Patriots are pretty good, too? Without whining about the officials or adding a "but..." on the end?

Biggest surprise of the game to me: Edge not getting much on the ground. I thought for sure Indy would be able to power-run in this game, especially given the field conditions. I was really surprised at how easily they gave up on the running game. Both teams were hitting and missing some on the running game, but the Patriots stuck with it and got their big runs. Indy never seemed to give James much of a chance to get it rolling.

Right now I think the Pats beat Pittsburgh next week, just because Big Ben is starting to look like a rookie and Bellichik will get to him this week. Next year is Pittsburgh's turn, with Ben really exploding in his second year and New England trying to break in two new coordinators. Indy looks like they've peaked just short of the top, although they may surprise with their defense getting better.

[Arles]

Is it me, or is there a lot more "Kerry Collins" in Ben Roethlisberger than "Joe Montana". I think in the next 2-3 seasons you will see an average QB, but nothing close to what the media is hyping him to be right now.

[QuikSand]

Is it me, or is there a lot more "Kerry Collins" in Ben Roethlisberger than "Joe Montana". I think in the next 2-3 seasons you will see an average QB, but nothing close to what the media is hyping him to be right now.

I think there's a pretty sizable chance of that.

[gstelmack]

I think there's a better than fair shot that Ben will have more "Tom Brady" in him than the other two. He may not be the best QB you've ever seen, but all he does is win games. Sure, having a great running game and defense help tremendously, but that also means he's being allowed to learn without too much pressure being heaped on him. He showed a lot in the Dallas game, for example.

It'll be interesting to see how he handles New England the second time around. And next year could be telling. But it's hard to knock a guy who has yet to lose.

[Aylmar]

Is it me, or is there a lot more "Kerry Collins" in Ben Roethlisberger than "Joe Montana". I think in the next 2-3 seasons you will see an average QB, but nothing close to what the media is hyping him to be right now.

Too early to tell. The kid needs to adjust to the speed of the playoffs and he'll have to do it in a hurry this week. I think, however, that to bury the rookie who shattered the NFL standard for rookie QB performances with Kerry Collins comparisons because he struggled against the Jets is absurd. He was second in the NFL in yards per attempt to Manning. Fifth best overall passer rating. 101.1 rating on third down. 118.5 in the fourth quarter. Has never lost a game. Completes passes at a seventy percent clip when trailing (rating - 113.3). But yeah, Kerry Collins.

[Desnudo]

I think Ben R. has a calmness about him that gives you confidence he can succeed.

[GrantDawg]

You're spot on with your point about fear. The trouble with that theory is the Steelers aren't scared of the Pats. The 'mystique' doesn't mean anything to them. They beat them up on Halloween. The Pats were putting nine guys in the box routinely in the second half and the Steelers just kept shoving the ball down their throats. After yesterday, it's foolish of me to ask anyone to say that the Steelers will win, but to write them off as a stepping stone to destiny for New England because they struggled against the Jets is a mistake. Both teams will be pumped. It should be an excellent game.I said something like this in another post (about over-hyping the Falcons after the Rams game), but people do need to remember this week is not carried over to next week. Impressive win by NE. They are a great team. I would say from the regular season they were the second best team this year. Next week they meet the best team. The AFC championship game next week should be the championship game. (That is not to say the winner of that game couldn't lose the next week. Any given Sunday, blah, blah, blah. But they shouldn't lose the next week).

All in all, I'm sticking with the Steelers.

[Arles]

Too early to tell. The kid needs to adjust to the speed of the playoffs and he'll have to do it in a hurry this week. I think, however, that to bury the rookie who shattered the NFL standard for rookie QB performances with Kerry Collins comparisons because he struggled against the Jets is absurd. He was second in the NFL in yards per attempt to Manning. Fifth best overall passer rating. 101.1 rating on third down. 118.5 in the fourth quarter. Has never lost a game. Completes passes at a seventy percent clip when trailing (rating - 113.3). But yeah, Kerry Collins.

Collins in 96:
204-364, 56.1%, 2454 yards, 14 TDs, 9 INT

Ben in 05:
196-295, 66.4%, 2621 yards, 17 TDs, 11 INT

Both had a very good running game and great defense early in their careers. Both took their teams to the conference championship.

I see a lot of parallels to this point...

[Aylmar]

Collins in 96:
204-364, 56.1%, 2454 yards, 14 TDs, 9 INT

Ben in 05:
196-295, 66.4%, 2621 yards, 17 TDs, 11 INT

Both had a very good running game and great defense early in their careers. Both took their teams to the conference championship.

I see a lot of parallels to this point...

Nice point if Collins were a rookie that year and just getting his first exposure to the NFL. As it was, he was in his second year in the Panthers offensive system. Perhaps the more accurate comparison would be...

Collins as a rookie:
214-433, 49.4%, 2717 yards, 14 TD, 19 INT

QB rating:

Collins as a rookie - 61.9
Collins '96 - 79.4

Ben '05 - 98.1

Oh, and I almost forgot. YPA:

Collins '95 - 6.27
Collins '96 - 6.74

Ben '05 - 8.88

[Arles]

Nice point if Collins were a rookie that year and just getting his first exposure to the NFL. As it was, he was in his second year in the Panthers offensive system. Perhaps the more accurate comparison would be...
1995 was the Panther's first season in existance and their team was not all that good (7-9). Hardly comparable with the 2004 Steelers team Ben walked into. The 1996 team was 12-4, 2nd in the league in points allowed, had a strong running game and a QB on the lower end of attempts in the league. Their numbers (and situations) were very similar outside of the fact Collins was in his second season. But I think it's safe to say the extra season Collins had is overshadowed by the significantly better personnel Ben has right now.

The point is we don't know how good Ben is because he has a great OL, two very good RBs, the best defense in the league and is rarely asked to throw. He's just as likely to be Kerry Collins as he is a great QB given the situation he's been in. It's not necessarily a knock against him, it's just meant to temper all this enthusiasm for a guy that really hasn't done much to this point given his starting situation.

[Aylmar]

It's not necessarily a knock against him, it's just meant to temper all this enthusiasm for a guy that really hasn't done much to this point given his starting situation.

This quote lets me know that you haven't really watched very many Steelers games this season...or if you have, you've been working on something else while the game is on TV. I can see, however, where someone who has seen him play in snippets/highlights, looks at the stats, and listens to the national media report on how his supporting cast is the sole reason for his success would make this comment. The real question you have to ask is what the Steelers record would be with Tommy Maddox as the starter. Would they still be 16-1 and riding a fifteen game winning streak? If Ben "hasn't done much" this season, your answer has to be yes.

Do I think he'll be the next Marino? No. He plays for the Steelers. They will continue to structure their offense around power rushing and a great defense, at least as long as Cowher is the head coach. But he has made great plays this season. He uses the pump fake like a veteran. He has excellent poise in the pocket. He's a winner. His career is just getting started. Smacks of an "I told you all along he wouldn't be all that" type of commentary. If you're right, you can say you've been saying he's not that great all along. If you're wrong, no one will remember anyway. It's a great thing to do. I do it all the time myself. :)

[Arles]

I honestly don't know if Ben will be great or not. I'm simply saying that his current situation is not one that allows people (esp the media) to call out NYG and SD for drafting guys like Manning and Rivers instead of Ben. That's my lone beef in all this is how much of media is acting like Ben is this star and everyone else in the top 10 should be shooting themselves for not taking him. He's a nice rookie QB but he's rarely even been losing in a game to this point. I think NE will be a great test to see where he is right now, but even if he stinks I don't know that it means anything for his future. It's just the Steeler's system has a knack for making poor to average QBs look like Pro Bowl guys (Stewart, O'Donnell, Maddox) because they focus so much on running and defense that the QB is more of a caretaker than playmaker.

[Desnudo]

I honestly don't know if Ben will be great or not. I'm simply saying that his current situation is not one that allows people (esp the media) to call out NYG and SD for drafting guys like Manning and Rivers instead of Ben. That's my lone beef in all this is how much of media is acting like Ben is this star and everyone else in the top 10 should be shooting themselves for not taking him. He's a nice rookie QB but he's rarely even been losing in a game to this point. I think NE will be a great test to see where he is right now, but even if he stinks I don't know that it means anything for his future. It's just the Steeler's system has a knack for making poor to average QBs look like Pro Bowl guys (Stewart, O'Donnell, Maddox) because they focus so much on running and defense that the QB is more of a caretaker than playmaker.

I think one comparison point is that I don't think anyone believes the Steelers would have won 15 games with Maddox at the helm. Since his name was brought up, I don't think they would have won 15 with Collins either. Collins would have found a way to lose at least 2-3 of those games for them with boneheaded plays. What made Ben R.'s rookie season remarkable is the lack of interceptions and big mistakes. He had better stats than Brady, but the track of their first playing seasons are pretty similar in style. Play consistent, don't make mistakes and don't give the defense a big play. I think watching Ben R., he has the intangibles that don't show up in stats that will make him a winner in the league.