EA Sports and football management sims

[maximus]

I suppose a discussion may start sooner or later but eventually EA will put it's hand into the football sim market once again. I know that EA once tried this idea with Front Office Football starting in 1999 but "consolidation in the gaming industry and the difficulty EA had obtaining these licenses soon led to the end of the online project" (also known as Front Office Football Online).

We all know the story as to what happend next with the FOF series.

Now EA is playing the cards again as stated in the quotes below. Even though I know these articles and links have been posted in the past on this forum, I thought I would post them again for a quick reference.

http://sports.ign.com/articles/572/572886p1.html
Meaning no ESPN NFL 2K6, no more NFL GameDay, and bye-bye NFL Blitz. All football fans will be left with are Madden, NFL Street, and a new unannounced football management game that is in the works from, you guessed it, EA Sports.

"All of our data shows that there is a huge market for manager-style games," said Jeff Brown, Director of Corporate Communications for Electronic Arts, "and you could see a new type of football game from EA."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/sportsbusiness/news/story?id=1969067
"The relationship will include established EA SPORTS franchises--which will be enhanced by ESPN telecast, print and online content--as well as new sports games to be published by EA based on ESPN media properties."

and...

The agreement gives the publisher "exclusive first rights" to all ESPN content for simulation sports games.


In my opinion, EA has finally realized that football management sims are huge money makers. So my question to you is this - given the fact that EA has the money & resources to make such a sim and also given the fact they have failed on all attempts to create such a sim with the Madden series, does EA have a viable chance at creating such a sim this time around?

Considering the facts it's easy to say no. But is it possible that EA may have actually learned from and seen the fanbase Front Offcie Football, or even other text based management sims, have recieved/generated over the past years.(?) I think so and I think it'll be fun to watch.

[FBPro]

Let's hope they put one out and that it is deep and accurate. More football games sound good to me.

[General Mike]

EA will fuck it up.

[MizzouRah]

I really don't want to see a football management sim from them.. yes I'm biased with FOF.


Todd

[FBPro]

No doubt, FOF is easily my most played game........however, I wouldn't mind having others to choose from whether EA puts it out or not matters not to me - as long as it is deep and accurate.

[Ragone]

Did they learn something from the sports sim crowd.. i imagine they did

Will they apply it to a game they make.. I imagine they won't

[FBPro]

Well, I'm not holding my breath but if by some miracle they do come out with one I'd be open to taking a look at it.

[Eaglesfan27]

Like I said in the Madden thread, I'd like to think that I would reject an EA game on principle, but I know that if they put out a good game I'd look at it. Of course, I'd continue to support Jim as well. But, I'm open to trying new games if they are done well. EA certainly has the resources to do a sports sim game that could be great if they really committed to it.

[Zippo]

EA is going to get my money.

[Blade6119]

if only it had college as well...that would be nice...one game with both in it....imagine a TCY/FOF game, in one...it wouldnt be that hard to put togther id imagine since la you had to do is run both at the same times wth the only thing mixing being the draft(which is already tied in)...add in some nice presentation and stuff and it could really be a solid product...be it from jim or EA...EA wont do it their first time out, and i doubt ever will as it would cut their profits in hlaf if they did make a college game....but i could see Jim doing this if EA's pro game was actually really good....i dont know, me and my dreams...simple, but actually could do very well in my mind

[GoldenEagle]

As an aspiring game developer, I would welcome EA into the market. I ca not speak for established veterans, but I think there fan base is solidified. If EA joined up, it would bring millions into the market and expand the possibilities a ton.

[maximus]

Like FBpro said, if the sim is deep and accurate then I will buy it but I would need more options and features. For example, I would like to play with fictional players in my league, but with real teams. I would like an adjustable salary cap. Easy customiztion and csv outputs would be nice. The option to turn stuff on or off.

IMO, I think EA gets ideas and data from here (http://www.easports.com/fantasy/home.jsp).

This is EAs fantasy football online league. Take the tour once (located on the left hand side of the page-its just pops up a screen with league info) and you'll see many features that Madden doesn't currently have. This is actually what we will probably see in EAs new football sim but with an ESPN presentation. There is also a rumor (some think it's already a fact) that we will see some sort of "football fusion" similar to Total Club Manager & FIFA.

[maximus]

if only it had college as well...that would be nice...one game with both in it....imagine a TCY/FOF game, in one...it wouldnt be that hard to put togther id imagine since la you had to do is run both at the same times wth the only thing mixing being the draft(which is already tied in)...add in some nice presentation and stuff and it could really be a solid product...be it from jim or EA...EA wont do it their first time out, and i doubt ever will as it would cut their profits in hlaf if they did make a college game....but i could see Jim doing this if EA's pro game was actually really good....i dont know, me and my dreams...simple, but actually could do very well in my mind


Well with the EA/AFL deal EA may already be looking at creating "farm systems' for their sim. I also hope that a college sim is made.

[jbmagic]

didnt EA mess up FOF 2 when they had it? and never listen to JIm when , he wanted to fix some bugs on it

[maximus]

didnt EA mess up FOF 2 when they had it? and never listen to JIm when , he wanted to fix some bugs on it

Some of the other veterns can answer better but from what I understand EA didn't allow Jim to release patches when needed. Also I think FOF2 was more of an roster update than anything else. I've heard some say it's still one of the better FOF games.

edit: I knew I'd find someone who has a fansite. :)

hxxp://fof2forever.com/main.html

This is my fansite for what I believe to be the best sports game ever made: EA Sports Front Office Football, also known as FOF2.

[maximus]

I mean, look at some of the features they implemented into their fantasy football game;

*League & Player News: Stay up to date by reviewing all the late-breaking news from around the pro gridiron.

*Injury Updates: Check out up-to-the-minute reports on the latest injuries and recoveries.

*It's your league, played by your rules. You choose league size, scoring system, available players, schedules, rosters, playoffs and just about anything else you could think of. You choose the free agent method your league will use, define how trades will work, and enter any fees your league charges for entry, player moves, etc.

*Enhanced player pages will provide you with every stat under the sun. Get player scoring for each week, player performance versus certain opponents, career stats and every split stat you can think of.


I know it's a fantasy football game but still the features are there to implement into a Madden style game.

I have to admit, I like "eye-candy" in my football sims. I like to actually watch the action on the field, Madden style. I wouldn't "joy stick jockey" but I would coach, call the plays and then watch the action unfold before me.

[Sharpieman]

I predict that EA will try a football sim, find out that their won't be a lot of money made by it and then abandon the idea completely. I don't see more than 2 EA football sims coming out.

[GoldenEagle]

Any first generation product is going to have its fair share of problems, even with the best developers in the world. EA will have to stick with for a few years for it to be "text sim" worthy. I could see EA failing when the product does not get great reviews from the start.

[maximus]

Any first generation product is going to have its fair share of problems, even with the best developers in the world. EA will have to stick with for a few years for it to be "text sim" worthy. I could see EA failing when the product does not get great reviews from the start.

I don't think it will be just a text sim. I have heard and/or even read that EA will try to implement a "football fusion" option so that one can watch the action on the field.

As far as the failure part of it, another thing I heard was this football management sim has actually been in the works for months. I think they are putting alot of time and effort into this. With the money they just spent on exclusive NFL, NFLPA, & ESPN licenses I don't see them quiting very easily.

[Honolulu Blue]

didnt EA mess up FOF 2 when they had it? and never listen to JIm when , he wanted to fix some bugs on it

Actually, FOF2 was the one EA got right. They released one patch for the game (needed another, but that's another story) and made some improvements to both the design and the interface. The bad news is that they worked with Digital River for licensing purposes, and I heard of numerous problems with them (though I never had any).

FOF 2001 was never patched, and rogue version FOF 2002 wasn't patched either.

Back on subject, I'd love to see a career sim from EA, not because I have any great love for them, but because I like having options. FOF is great, but it does have its weak points. The new game could, perhaps, be strong where FOF is weak, and it might be worth picking up because of it.

[CraigSca]

I mean, look at some of the features they implemented into their fantasy football game;

I know it's a fantasy football game but still the features are there to implement into a Madden style game.

I have to admit, I like "eye-candy" in my football sims. I like to actually watch the action on the field, Madden style. I wouldn't "joy stick jockey" but I would coach, call the plays and then watch the action unfold before me.
Not sure why none of the features were listed when I quoted...but that's another story.

However, Maximus, every feature you quoted from the fantasy game is merely a direct line to REAL LIFE news and injury reports. That's easy to include in a fantasy game, but hard as hell to include in a fictional universe. If they can pull it off, more power to them. The closest I've seen is FM, but even that gets fairly repetitive after a while and that's in what, it's 5-6th generation?!

[Karim]

Isn't the North American sports management crows a REALLY small niche? I can't see EA devoting much resources to this project unless it's done as a sort of add-on to the Madden series where the focus will still be on arcade gameplay.

[GrantDawg]

I have to admit, I like "eye-candy" in my football sims. I like to actually watch the action on the field, Madden style. I wouldn't "joy stick jockey" but I would coach, call the plays and then watch the action unfold before me.
I'm with you, Max, but I think we the minority here. I also think a game like that would outsell a completely text-based sim by leaps and bounds (at least in the States).

[MizzouRah]

I'm with you, Max, but I think we the minority here. I also think a game like that would outsell a completely text-based sim by leaps and bounds (at least in the States).

I'm with the both of you as well. It's only becuase after FPS died out, nothing has come close to even attempting something like this... I've kind of given up on the idea.

FPS Football was the #1 football game for me (version '97) Just watching that #1 defensive end make his first sack was quite an experience. I would LOVE to see that engine combined with FOF.


Todd

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm with all 3 of you.

Madden 2005 eventually disappointed me as a coach only game, but a coach only game done right where I could watch the action unfold would get MASSIVE playtime from me. For now, I enjoy Madden 2005 for what it is, a good joystick football game. However, I think a coach only graphic football game would sell very well.

[Icy]

I'm with all 4 of you :)

I would love a FOF with 2D or 3D engine, but of course it must be well done and there is where i lose my trust on EA. Just look at the TCM series, the game looks awesome, a FM sim with the FIFA series 3D engine....untill you notice that the tactics/formations you set are not followed at all at the 3D field, the game is totally unrealistic etc. Probably that is enought for most of joystick players, but for real sim addics¡ts like us, the game is a joke. My fear is that the future EA football sim game will be like this, i hope not. If i need to choose i preffer good engine over eye candy, but why not to have both? one day somebody will be able to do it... and right now the closer company to it is Sigames.

[GrantDawg]

I'm with all 4 of you :)

I would love a FOF with 2D or 3D engine, but of course it must be well done and there is where i lose my trust on EA. Just look at the TCM series, the game looks awesome, a FM sim with the FIFA series 3D engine....untill you notice that the tactics/formations you set are not followed at all at the 3D field, the game is totally unrealistic etc. Probably that is enought for most of joystick players, but for real sim addics¡ts like us, the game is a joke. My fear is that the future EA football sim game will be like this, i hope not. If i need to choose i preffer good engine over eye candy, but why not to have both? one day somebody will be able to do it... and right now the closer company to it is Sigames.
Your right about them not hving a great track record on this. We can only wish that this will be different (because we have no real basis for hope).

[KWhit]

I would love to have some graphics to go with my sims too. I'd love to have a 2D engine like the one in FM strapped onto FOF. That would be awesome.

[maximus]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I'm with you, Max

Originally posted by MizzouRah
I'm with the both of you as well

Originally posted by Eaglesfan27
I'm with all 3 of you.

Originally posted by Icy
I'm with all 4 of you.

Good, looks like I've got some company. :)

[jbmagic]

you know what will be great

if Ea makes a sim or FOF next version


is to have an option to host a online football sim career for multiplayer league

the owners willl connect to the host of the league server, and can do trades online , look at stats online, look at schedule, standing, do the draft live online, etc


just like Madden 2002 online league was

[Airhog]

I predict they will try to make a game like there failed F1 manager game. It had nice graphics, but it was buggy as hell!

Of course they could always take the madden engine, and slap the code from fof2k1 in it, not sure how well that would work though..

[maximus]

Of course they could always take the madden engine, and slap the code from fof2k1 in it, not sure how well that would work though..


Does EA own that code or Jim? I aks because that would be cool if EA did own that code and actually used it. I think EA owned the code for FOF-Online too, didn't they?

[SegRat]

Does anyone think that maybe Jim is working with EA again? He did go from releasing a game a year to now waiting a year and a half to 2 years before the next release.

I would not be a bit suprised if this is the case, I hope not but wouldnt be suprised.

[maximus]

Does anyone think that maybe Jim is working with EA again? He did go from releasing a game a year to now waiting a year and a half to 2 years before the next release.

I would not be a bit suprised if this is the case, I hope not but wouldnt be suprised.

Hey, I live about 2 1/2 hrs southeast of you (Kenosha). :)

I think the chances of Jim working with EA is slim but...one of the things I did hear through the grapevine was that a person involved with this football management sim project did work on text sims before. Not sure who it is but if Jim was involved I think it would be only a good thing.

[SegRat]

Kenosha...Sorry to hear that J/K

[Bubba Wheels]

Sorry for you misfortune. But I can't help thinking about that little guy running for President some years ago, being ridiculed and called crazy who always used to talk about this giant 'sucking sound' referring to something called NAFTA.

[Airhog]

The only way I could see jim working with EA again, was if he was making significantly more than what he is making now. I think the benefits to Jims way of doing things far outweigh having to work with EA

[maximus]

Bump.

It my be soon that were hear more about this new "management football sim" from EA.

[hoosierdude]

Hey, I live about 2 1/2 hrs southeast of you (Kenosha). :)

I think the chances of Jim working with EA is slim but...one of the things I did hear through the grapevine was that a person involved with this football management sim project did work on text sims before. Not sure who it is but if Jim was involved I think it would be only a good thing.

Maybe it isn't Jim, but Joe Stallings. He is known to be working for EA in Florida.

[Ben E Lou]

Maybe it isn't Jim, but Joe Stallings. He is known to be working for EA in Florida.Seriously?

[maximus]

Maybe it isn't Jim, but Joe Stallings. He is known to be working for EA in Florida.


Really?

[wbatl1]

Maybe it isn't Jim, but Joe Stallings. He is known to be working for EA in Florida.

Where?

EDIT: Doh-should look at the other surprised responses before I add my third :D

[maximus]

Hmm, but I thought Joe Stallings didn't know crap about actual game programming but rather only did interfaces & grapahics related projects.

You know what though, I do remember someone from SI saying that a well known person in the text genre was working on the title.

[sovereignstar]

Maybe it isn't Jim, but Joe Stallings. He is known to be working for EA in Florida.

Is this true?

[QuikSand]

Now that is how you start a rumor at this place.

[Ben E Lou]

It may not be a rumor: http://www.etc.cmu.edu/resources_subpages/techartist.html

[wade moore]

Now that is how you start a rumor at this place.


And it takes care of itself from there...

[maximus]

It may not be a rumor: http://www.etc.cmu.edu/resources_subpages/techartist.html

Great find SD!

[Ben E Lou]

Great find SD!Google is your friend. :p

[Mac Howard]

As an aspiring game developer, I would welcome EA into the market. I ca not speak for established veterans, but I think there fan base is solidified. If EA joined up, it would bring millions into the market and expand the possibilities a ton.

It's a seductive idea, GoldenEagle, but I can tell you it's completely wrong. Let me tell you a story ;)

It's 1985 and I was selling a soccer management game called Division One 85 in much the same way as Jim sells FOF now. It was going along fine. Healthy sales and I gave up my day job to concentrate on game design.

There was another game - Football Manager - which was well known but selling on another platform. In those days in the UK the games market was splintered into two - the Sinclair home computers and the BBC Micro (the UK's equivalent to the Apple). FM sold on the Sinclair machines and mine on the BBC Micro.

There were 3 million Sinclair mchines and only around 200,000 BBC's so FM sold in many numbers from the high street stores while mine sold into a limited but more adult market (the BBC was the education machine and three times the cost of the Sinclair).

Then Addictive Games, the publishers of FM, declared they were to release a BBC version. Good, I thought, the exposure will open up the market (it was always said that 90% of people will not buy mail order) and I'll pick up new sales.

A reviewer contacted me wanting a copy of DivOne 85 for a head to head review on the two games. I sent him a copy.

The review came out just as FM was released. It began with "DivOne is a far more realistic game" and concluded "Football Manager is a mile behind".

You can imagine I was "over the moon" expecting that all those guys who gained an exposure to the soccer management game from FM's massive marketing hype would turn to DivOne.

In fact what happened is that FM sold tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands for the Sinclair machines) and my sales plummetted to virtually nothing. Instantly! The moment FM appeared in the stores.

The simple truth is that an individual designer simply cannot compete with a game that is expensively marketed and available in the stores no matter what the superiority. Some people, the FOF crowd are probably a good example, will make their own decisions and go with what they see as the best - I survive today on such people. But the mainstream won't give a damn about the quality of the game particularly if that quality requires much effort from the gamer to take advantage of it.

If EA brings out a game - and it'll probably be flashy and have much appeal for the mainstream audience - then I suspect that FOF will suffer (not all purchasers of FOF are like you guys). And any other game from an independant designer.

It all happened again in 1992. There were 5 independant designers (the FM designer had retired to the Bahamas :rolleyes: ) selling mail order when suddenly the mainstream "discovered" the soccer management game again and four publishers put games into the stores.

I'm the only independant left - mainly because I don't go head to head with the mainstream product but go for a different simulation model which leads to a more challenging game. The others were wiped out one after another.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Is this true?
Yes.

[sovereignstar]

Yes.

Is that a legitimate 'yes'?

[Ben E Lou]

Is that a legitimate 'yes'?So far, I've gotten a PM from a believable source confirming it, and that link I posted sure would indicate it, too.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Is that a legitimate 'yes'?
Yes. It is a confirmation that it is legit.

[sovereignstar]

Yes. It is a confirmation that it is legit.

Next question. What are you wearing?

[TLK]

It actually seems like a perfect match.....

[sovereignstar]

So far, I've gotten a PM from a believable source confirming it, and that link I posted sure would indicate it, too.

Both of my queries have been in jest. I trust what you've found.

[Ben E Lou]

It actually seems like a perfect match.....OK, I must admit that my first thought was, "they deserve each other." :p

But maybe, just maybe, having someone with experience in the genre might help out.

Maybe?

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Next question. What are you wearing?
a mumu

[sovereignstar]

a mumu

Excellent! Do you have a bonnet to go with your mumu?

[I. J. Reilly]

It's a seductive idea, GoldenEagle, but I can tell you it's completely wrong.
Is this still true in the internet era? It seems like google would level the playing field a little bit.

[Mac Howard]

Is this still true in the internet era? It seems like google would level the playing field a little bit.

That was always the argument for the Internet (and why I moved there in 1999) but the reality is very different. First there is the problem of being found - you are a very small needle in a very big haystack and Google ranks you on the number of links to your site which will be way down on other mainstream publishers. Second, because of security concerns over the Internet, people are VERY reluctant to hand over their credit card details to an unknown company. So, no matter how much someone may want your game, they will baulk at posting their cc details to someone they know nothing about. You could be a crook operating from China :)

My best (snail) mail order day is still better than my best week on the Internet :(

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm the only independant left - mainly because I don't go head to head with the mainstream product but go for a different simulation model which leads to a more challenging game. The others were wiped out one after another.

There are a lot more of you hanging on than you think Mac ... off the top of my head ...

http://www.supersoccermanager.com/game.html
http://www.teammanager2005.com/
(there are around 40 such games which I know of - strangely a lot of them are American developers)

and then there are a few open source games which are starting to take shape such as:

http://bygfoot.sourceforge.net/

The simple truth is that an individual designer simply cannot compete with a game that is expensively marketed and available in the stores no matter what the superiority. Some people, the FOF crowd are probably a good example, will make their own decisions and go with what they see as the best - I survive today on such people. But the mainstream won't give a damn about the quality of the game particularly if that quality requires much effort from the gamer to take advantage of it.
I agree to a certain extent - but also personally think that if a game is good enough then it'll do well (take it as a compliment Mac, you've been doing well enough to keep the game going for many years now).

There are numerous sudden hits in the games industry with small marketing such as Doom (when it originally came out), Uplink etc. ...

I do agree with you that competing against commercial games is hard and the management genre is probably one of the hardest, simply because of the nature of the product and the critical analysis which such games recieve generally however.

I believe that EA releasing a management sim could be very good for FOF, especially if Jim plays his cards right - people are becoming more and more open to online purchases these days and with the right support (notably getting the game covermounted on magazine CD's where possible) I think it could raise FOF's profile considerably.

PS> While not a 'perfect' purchase system by any means Jim (we've had our fair share of problems with it when SI have used it) - Softwrap do offer support for games which release using it to get them covermounted on games magazines ... this might be something worth looking at?

[sovereignstar]

PS> While not a 'perfect' purchase system by any means Jim (we've had our fair share of problems with it when SI have used it) - Softwrap do offer support for games which release using it to get them covermounted on games magazines ... this might be something worth looking at?

You can't be bloody serious. You do maintain that it isn't a perfect purchase system, but Softwrap deserves much worse. Never ever.. ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have I ever been so offended by a company's support. Softwrap makes Digital River look like Daisy Dukes. I guarantee the FOFC lynch mob would make an appearance at some point should the Brit company become intertwined with Solecismic.

[Ben E Lou]

I guarantee the FOFC lynch mob would make an appearance at some point should the Brit company become intertwined with Solecismic.
{Gathering more kerosene and wood.}

[Marc Vaughan]

You can't be bloody serious. You do maintain that it isn't a perfect purchase system, but Softwrap deserves much worse. Never ever.. ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have I ever been so offended by a company's support. Softwrap makes Digital River look like Daisy Dukes. I guarantee the FOFC lynch mob would make an appearance at some point should the Brit company become intertwined with Solecismic.

As I indicated earlier its not a 'perfect' system by any stretch - however what I was trying to show was that its possible for an independant developer to get mainstream coverage (ie. PC Mags etc.) by teaming up with another company.

While I personally think that e-licence is more accepted by the online sports-sim community they don't (to my knowledge) help with getting games released through it covermounted etc. - Softwrap do, having the game on a magazine with a distribution of (for example) a several hundred thousand people can only be good for the game even if only 1% of people give it a whirl (and bear in mind that if Jim did take this route it wouldn't prohibit him continuing to utilise e-licence for download sales).

[Gallifrey]

EA will fuck it up.

I always wondered, in all the 10 straight versions of Madden that I bought and played, if EA had any real football people working on the project or if they just told a programmer, 'your off that baseball sim where everyone hits 50 home runs and now your on Madden. Make the players look unrealistic.'

I held onto the faith far too long. After an online game where I had a guy snap the ball with multible players in motion and my defense AI of course didn't know what to do, he scored, no flags for the illegal shift...

I have no belief at all that the gameplay will mirror reality.

[Ajaxab]

I held onto the faith far too long. After an online game where I had a guy snap the ball with multible players in motion and my defense AI of course didn't know what to do, he scored, no flags for the illegal shift...

It's the secret CFL online mode. :D

[Desnudo]

I always wondered, in all the 10 straight versions of Madden that I bought and played, if EA had any real football people working on the project or if they just told a programmer, 'your off that baseball sim where everyone hits 50 home runs and now your on Madden. Make the players look unrealistic.'

I held onto the faith far too long. After an online game where I had a guy snap the ball with multible players in motion and my defense AI of course didn't know what to do, he scored, no flags for the illegal shift...

I have no belief at all that the gameplay will mirror reality.

Sounds like you got pwned.