Gameplans help please

[jbmagic]

i just got FOF 5.1b recently and loving the game alot..

one of the hardest part for me so far is doing the gameplans..

any advice and tips when setting up the gameplan for offense and defense..

i know i can hit recommend button, but feel like doing it yourself will give you better results.

thanks

[Warhammer]

Can you give us a little more to go on? Player strengths for key positions, etc?

[jbmagic]

Can you give us a little more to go on? Player strengths for key positions, etc?


yes my cb, FS, SS specialize the Zone really well. so i prefer to play the zone on defense.. i play the 4/3 defense

i have one excellent DT and one excellent MLB. there both great at pass rush . ,my slb is fair and have two good wlb. my LDE is good and RDE is fair. the other DT is good..so only players on defense that great at pass rush in my one DT and MLB.

rest of the defensive line is ok, not great....so my #1 priority is to stop the pass and dont mine giving up up the runs yards for now


on offense i am average..the style i want to play is to run 60% and pass around 40%.

i have a good Qb he great at medium and long passes, a good running back great at power inside with above average breakaway speed and hole regonization , one very good FL Wide reciever and 2 good SE wide reciever. i have a good offensive line. i am probably a little bit more stronger in the middle on the offensive line..

[Warhammer]

Defense first:

If all of your defensive backs (CB and S) play zone well, then you will want to play a lot of Cover 3. This means your CBs and FS take the deep zones (hashmark to sideline, hash to hash, and hashmark to sideline) , and I believe the SS and the LBs take the underneath zones. Cover 2 means that your safeties split the field into two halves in the deep zones. Your corners play M2M on the wideouts. Avoid cover 4, as that is more of a prevent defense with all DBs playing deep zones.

I prefer a cover 3 because you have the SS closer to the line to help with run D. With a zone defense, you can play more conservatively on Pass-D and help out your Run D since the players are reading the play before dropping back into coverage. Plus, if you plan on blitzing your MLB a lot, you have someone to cover the middle zone. In a cover 2, the SS would be back, and you would basically have no one covering the short middle zone.

However, a short passing team will eat a zone defense alive because they are getting the ball to the receivers before the D can pick them up. But, you will not give up the big play.

Regarding the basic %'s for each down and yardage, if you are more worried about the passing game, use lower numbers here. However, if you do that, I would make sure your Pass D aggresiveness is average to low. Once you have figured out your base defense, you can adjust for the other game situations, if you lead, you want to up your Pass D %, and maybe increase the amount of cover 4 you play. If you are trailing, jack your Run D % and Run D aggressiveness up.

[Warhammer]

Offense:

Offense can be MUCH more complicated than defense. Not only do you worry about your pass/run %, but where to run, where to pass, formations, % run finesse plays, etc.

The first thing to do, is decide what type of offense you want to run. If you want to run 60% of the time, you need to think about it situationally. How many YPC do you expect to get? Will you be facing more 2-6 or 2-7 situations? Also, which linemen do you want to run behind?

Based upon what you have mentioned above, I would make a lot of my runs inside the tackles and guards, with very little outside the ends. The most important RB #s to me are: Hole recognition, elusiveness, (tie) power inside and speed to outside, breakaway speed. My philosophy is no matter where you run, if you cannot see the hole, you are screwed. Elusiveness helps no matter where you run, power inside and speed outside determine where you will run, and breakaway speed determines whether you will take it all the way in for a TD if you get past the line of defense.

I would probably run a little more inside the tackles than the guards, simply because it is easier to bust a play outside from there and take advantage of your RBs breakaway speed. Plus, you still get the benefit of the guard to that side.

Regarding the WRs, go into the formations, and make sure that you have set the formations to use your #2 SE over your #2 FL. The passing game is much more than who do I want to pass to, etc. For example, you do not want to make a lot of deep passes if your OL pass blocking is bad, or you have WRs that have poor Getting Downfield ratings. Also, make sure that your formation use in a given situation is compatible with the routes you are running. For example, you do not want to make a lot of deep passes from a 3 TE set. However, if you skew your passing formations too much towards a 3 WR set or 4 WR set, the D will know you are passing if you are not running much out of those sets.

Also, even though your QB may be good at long passes, do not throw too many of them, because they have a lower completion %, than the shorter passes. Basically, instead of going 0 for 6 on the long ball, a QB with good long passing might be 2 of 6 on the long ball.

I hope this helps, there is a lot more to offense than there is to defense. Defense you can pretty much set up a scheme, whereas offense you can tweak quite a bit.

[jbmagic]

thanks so much

can you please create a gameplan like you said above for offense and defense and send it to me...i just want to load it up and get an better idea what you said above....

this will help me alot to understand it better..

thanks

[hitmanwa]

Great post Warhammer, I really enjoyed the read. I wondered if there was some sort of FAQ that broke down everything in the game, especially gameplanning and depth charts. If so, a link would be much appreciated. Most of what I do find is through searches but was just wondering if there was a breakdown somewhere.

Thanks,
Hit

[Warhammer]

Most of the info is on the help for each screen. Hit F1 on the screen to access the help screen.

[hitmanwa]

Ok, thanks. I have the Strategy Guide for FoF2 and was wondering if there was something like that for FoF4 or if a lot of that is still applicable.

Thanks again,
Hit

[Passacaglia]

So Warhammer, are you saying that if you choose 2-Deep Zone, that your corners are playing man to man?

[dubb93]

Defense first:

Cover 2 means that your safeties split the field into two halves in the deep zones. Your corners play M2M on the wideouts. Avoid cover 4, as that is more of a prevent defense with all DBs playing deep zones.



Based on this comment alone I just changed my defensive strats.

So you are saying that in D Deep zones the game is calculating the CB's M2M defense rating instead of zone defense. If this is true you probably just solved my defensive problems in my current game. I have CB's that are rated 94, 100 in in zone D but just 23, 42 in M2M. I've been running 2 Deep 85% of the time thinking it was a zone defense set up to stop the short passing attack. But last year I had the worst passing D in the league giving up close to 300 yards a game. Thanks for clearing up the difference, I hope the change to 3 Deep will solve this for me.

[Warhammer]

So Warhammer, are you saying that if you choose 2-Deep Zone, that your corners are playing man to man?

Let me rephrase that, they can be. I am not 100% sure how the game models it, but, in real football, the Cover 2 refers to how the deep zones are covered. The safties take the deep zones and split the field in half, one on each side. The LBs take the short zones, and the CBs man up on the outside receivers. However, it is possible to play zone with those CBs.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=167&cat=1

Describes it pretty well. When I played, granted is was HS football, we played the M2M CB Cover 2 scheme.

This is another site that shows schemes graphically.

http://www.geocities.com/djdj0705/scheme.html

[Warhammer]

Based on this comment alone I just changed my defensive strats.

So you are saying that in D Deep zones the game is calculating the CB's M2M defense rating instead of zone defense. If this is true you probably just solved my defensive problems in my current game. I have CB's that are rated 94, 100 in in zone D but just 23, 42 in M2M. I've been running 2 Deep 85% of the time thinking it was a zone defense set up to stop the short passing attack. But last year I had the worst passing D in the league giving up close to 300 yards a game. Thanks for clearing up the difference, I hope the change to 3 Deep will solve this for me.


Be careful though, there are a lot of factors that determine your Pass D. For example, let's say your blitz % is high, and the player you are blitzing the most is your SS. If you are playing a Cover 2, and sending your SS, you are going to get burned quite a bit.

Also, in a cover 2, your LBs are covering the short zones, so if you are blitzing with them, those zones are able to be exploited. Also, look at where you are getting beat, is it WRs that are getting the big plays, or is it TEs and RBs? What are the YAC for those plays? This gives you a better indication of what is going on.

Personally, if you are a good zone team, I would mix it up between cover 2 and cover 3. Too much of one or the other can be picked apart by an offense designed to do so. A cover 2 is also much more vulnerable against the run, so take that into consideration.

Also, if you go up against a short passing team, you probably do not want to play zone. Bump and run or M2M is probably a better bet against these teams. Zone is ideal against a medium to deep passing team.

[dubb93]

Be careful though, there are a lot of factors that determine your Pass D. For example, let's say your blitz % is high, and the player you are blitzing the most is your SS. If you are playing a Cover 2, and sending your SS, you are going to get burned quite a bit.

Also, in a cover 2, your LBs are covering the short zones, so if you are blitzing with them, those zones are able to be exploited. Also, look at where you are getting beat, is it WRs that are getting the big plays, or is it TEs and RBs? What are the YAC for those plays? This gives you a better indication of what is going on.

Personally, if you are a good zone team, I would mix it up between cover 2 and cover 3. Too much of one or the other can be picked apart by an offense designed to do so. A cover 2 is also much more vulnerable against the run, so take that into consideration.

Also, if you go up against a short passing team, you probably do not want to play zone. Bump and run or M2M is probably a better bet against these teams. Zone is ideal against a medium to deep passing team.



I'm starting to get a better picture here. I never blitz a CB or Safety, and never send more than 1 player. I have my blitz setting set @ 50 for now and multiple players @ 0.

I like the balance I have now between 75% cover 3 and 25% cover 2. Last year I was getting killed by WR's for 150+ yard games, now it seems TE's and FB's are doing the damange. We've cut our defensive Passing YPG by 75 yards and are only giving up 95 RYPG. Seems much better than last year, the RYPG was closer to 150 and PYPG was closer to 300.

[jbmagic]

thanks

now when you put a team together and ready to do your gameplan for that team

OFFENSE

any good strategy for the percent of running plays called for offense and percent of running plays expected for defense for 1st,2nd, 3rd, 4th down? any good tips in doing those for each game situation like normal, lead, deficit, 4th qtr,inside own 6 yard line etc?

for formations usage for each game situation best to pick the ones that your QB only knows?

for offense any tips on passing distance for each game situations?

for run directions for each game situation best to go to the side you have your best run blockers at? any tips there?

DEFENSE

on defense best to blitz only the position that has a great rating for blitz?

personal package on defense any good tips there when to use goal-line, nickle, dime for entering the % for each game situation.

any tips and strategy for defense setting for aggressive run defense, pass defense, blitz frequency and blitz multi play for each game situations.

for pass coverage, is it good to go with the strength of your CB, SS and FS when choosing man to man, cover 2,3,4 and bump and run for each game situations? any tips and strategy there?

orient cb by side of formation and orient cb by WR cover- any tips and strategy when choosing one for each game situation? and the % to use?

thanks

[Warhammer]

I had the opposite happen, I had a stellar D last year (although every 4th game it seemed to blow up against the run), but this year it seemed to break down. It was partially my fault since I dealt many players from a deep position, CB, and left my starters intact (backups were mostly 1st and 2nd year players). However, I started getting beat deep in pass coverage. It turns out, I was playing a lot of M2M, and not getting much pressure. So I went to more of a zone defense, and that seems to have sealed up the pass D. I downgraded my pass D aggresiveness and that helped my Run-D. Turns out, my untried 4th CB was giving up a ton of yards, so I backed off the amount of dime coverage I was playing, and mixed up my LB corps.

The next game, my D set a team record for fewest yards allowed.

My philosophy is this, if you plan to have your guys locked up in coverage for fewer than 5 seconds, go with a M2M defense (typically, I jack up the blitz % to put more pressure on the QB). If you plan on covering for more than 5 seconds go to a zone coverage scheme. If the offense likes the long ball, Bump N Run is good, combined with a blitz package. This is very effective if you have the right personnel, as it delays the WRs getting off the line of scrimmage, and the QB will not have all day due to the blitz.

[Warhammer]

thanks

now when you put a team together and ready to do your gameplan for that team

OFFENSE

any good strategy for the percent of running plays called for offense and percent of running plays expected for defense for 1st,2nd, 3rd, 4th down? any good tips in doing those for each game situation like normal, lead, deficit, 4th qtr,inside own 6 yard line etc?

for formations usage for each game situation best to pick the ones that your QB only knows?

for offense any tips on passing distance for each game situations?

for run directions for each game situation best to go to the side you have your best run blockers at? any tips there?

This is where things get complicated. My basic rule of thumb is to figure out my basic game plan. From there, you can modify that to the different situations. Also, I tend to change my offensive %s a bit depending on the team I am playing. If playing a good run team, you need to ask, why are they good? Do they have good LBs, a good DL, good DBs? Make a plan and make a consistent game plan.

If there are any mismatches on the line, run to that side. Check the DBs, seeing what they are good at can help you attack their Pass-D. Good zone DBs? Throw it short. Poor zone DBs? Play an intermediate game. Very weak CBs? I like to go deep.

For the situations, I typically run more when ahead to burn the clock, and run inside more. The farther I get behind, I tend to run outside, and pass more.

Regarding formations, any % you put in a formation your QB does not know is disregarded.


DEFENSE

on defense best to blitz only the position that has a great rating for blitz?

personal package on defense any good tips there when to use goal-line, nickle, dime for entering the % for each game situation.

any tips and strategy for defense setting for aggressive run defense, pass defense, blitz frequency and blitz multi play for each game situations.

for pass coverage, is it good to go with the strength of your CB, SS and FS when choosing man to man, cover 2,3,4 and bump and run for each game situations? any tips and strategy there?

orient cb by side of formation and orient cb by WR cover- any tips and strategy when choosing one for each game situation? and the % to use?


My philosophy on blitzing is complex. If I have a great blitzer, I use him. I also like to go whole hog, if you are taking a risk, go all out (but that can get you burned badly too).

Regarding packages, it really depends on personnel. I like to be deep at DB, and hedge against the run quite a bit. So I tend to play low goalline D, but up the nickel and dime %s. However, I have had to reduce my dime package a bit because of a lack of depth at CB. I set nickel higher because I want my 3rd CB to develop.

Regarding the pass/run %s, I prefer to play aggressively against the run, and plan for it quite a bit. My thinking here is that with superior DBs, even if I plan run, I can still cover the pass.

Aggresive run and pass D I am still playing with. Basically, aggresive play means you are committing to playing against that first, and the other type second. So, if I play a high run D aggresive defense, when I call a running D, my guys think run first, and worry about plugging gaps, the DBs come up a bit, etc. This means you can get burned if the WRs go around your DBs deep, etc. That is why I prefer great DBs, because I can focus on shutting down the run, but still have good coverage.

With pass coverage I try to use schemes that are good for my players. But, you need to adjust this for situations.

Orienting the CB is a very good question. If you have two good/great CBs I have them cover sides. If I only have one great CB, and the other team has a stud WR, I use 1st/2nd CB. Regarding double teams, it depends on how much I fear their WRs, and how good my CBs are. If I have a great CB, I will tend to double the #2 WR, but if their #1 WR really puts the fear of God in me, then I will double the #1 WR.

Hope this helps.

[jbmagic]

thanks


is goal line defense % only when you defending the goalline only?

or is it the 4/3 if you play that defense?

[hitmanwa]

A little off topic I know and my apologies but I'm working on gameplans now. Does defnsd=knockdowns, I've never heard it called that.

[flere-imsaho]

Passes Defensed is generally someone in coverage (including LBs in zone or man coverage) knocking down or otherwise "defensing" the pass.

"Blocks" are generally registered by the DE or DT and refer to these guys getting a hand up to knock down a pass.

[Warhammer]

thanks


is goal line defense % only when you defending the goalline only?

or is it the 4/3 if you play that defense?

Goal line defense is when you pull a DB for an additional LB (I think, need to double check). If not it is pulling a DB for an additional DL.

[jbmagic]

so if defense gameplan has nickle, dime and goalline % to enter....

when do the play the base defense for example 4/3? i dotn see a place to enter the % for that

[Warhammer]

Misc. Settings will cover the 4-3 defense. The % for nickel, dime, and goaline are average % when in a situation that calls for it. For example, on a 4-1 at your 40, if you have a 0 for goal line D, you will run some other D, if you have it set to 50, you will probably use it, if it is set to 100, you will run it.

These %s are not cumulative, they are situational defensive settings. So, if you are calling a run D play, you will probably not go into a nickel d.

Hope that helps.

[Rhone Ranger]

My philosophy is this, if you plan to have your guys locked up in coverage for fewer than 5 seconds, go with a M2M defense (typically, I jack up the blitz % to put more pressure on the QB). If you plan on covering for more than 5 seconds go to a zone coverage scheme. If the offense likes the long ball, Bump N Run is good, combined with a blitz package. This is very effective if you have the right personnel, as it delays the WRs getting off the line of scrimmage, and the QB will not have all day due to the blitz.

What is the effective difference between loose man-to-man and bump-and-run?

I know what they are are in real life, but I can't tell how FOF models them. My hunch was that bump-and-run is a more aggressive kind of coverage, meaning that when it works it really shuts down a receiver, but when it fails it can be burned badly, especially deep (i.e. if the receiver beats the jam and gets behind the DB and turns on the jets). Loose man-to-man seems more conservative, a bit more vulnerable to short passes but less likely to be beaten deep. Maybe also a little better against the run because the DB's attention isn't totally absorbed by the receiver in the first second or two of the play as it would be in bump-and-run.

But you're saying that bump and run is better against the long pass, so maybe my hunch is wrong?

This sort of thing is so open to interpretation, even if we figure out how we think it works in the "real world" that still might not be the way the FOF programmer (Jim) made FOF behave.

I wish that the next "update" for FOF would not be a new program, but instead would be an expansion of the documentation. Please, Jim, tell us how your game actually works!

A few points that cry out for explanation from the game's author are:

1. Defensive pass coverages (man-to-man, bump-and-run, 2-zone, 3-zone, 4-zone). What precisely are they, where do the defensive players line up, and what are their responsibilities? (e.g. if Warhammer is right that a 3-zone means the SS is in the short center of the field, it would really help if FOF confirmed that). In general, what are the strengths and weaknesses of each type of coverage, with regards to the types of passes best (or worst) defended, and how each handles the run? For example, (I'm guessing here) maybe the zone is better against longer passes while bump-and-run is stronger against the short pass? Maybe the zone (all eyes forward) is better against the run than bump-and-run? Maybe man coverage results in lower completion percentages but more big plays for the offense? Is zone the most conservative coverage, with bump the most aggressive, and loose man in between? I'm just guessing... it would be so helpful if the documentation could talk about this, even briefly.

2. Is FOF "2-deep zone" the same as real-life "Cover 2"? People have assumed that here on the discussion boards, but FOF does not make it clear. As I understand it, "Cover 2" involves a mixture of man to man coverage from the cornerbacks with zone coverage from safeties and linebackers, so if it's the same as FOF's "2-deep zone" then the name "2-deep zone" is somewhat misleading without any further information because it implies no man-to-man coverage at all. This should be explained in the documentation.

3. In a 3-4 defense, is sending a 4th man to rush the passer considered a "blitz" by FOF? In real life it would not be. I understand if the game interface requires that sending anyone other than a lineman be considered a blitz and that's fine, but it sure would help if the documentation made it clear how the game handles this issue.

4. Other than distance covered, are there particular pass patterns that are more effective versus zone than man-to-man coverage, or vice versa? Curls, slants, outs, flys, etc. - which one beats the zone (or man) if any? Does FOF simulate this? It's fine if it doesn't, since there's already a lot to keep track of - I just want to know if I'm missing out on a critical bit of information.

5. What are the advantages and disadvantages of finesse running plays? My guess is that they are intended to take advantage of "aggressive" run defense at the expense of performing more poorly against standard run defenses. Again, it would be great if the docs could tell us.

6. Do tight ends actually pass-block in FOF? They are never tagged with a "sack allowed" in the stats. Further, they only infrequently contribute with regards to "key blocks" in the running game, so is that an intentional design decision in FOF or does the TE affect blocking in a more general way that doesn't show up in the stats?


What it boils down to is that it's very hard for us players to know what FOF simulates and what it leaves out (or focuses on less). Real-life football is such a complex subject that even the best gridiron sim (FOF!) can't be expected to cover everything to the infinite degree and I don't even want it to. For example, FOF has five types of pass coverage. Real football has more, but five types is plenty for me. We just need to know how they're supposed to behave. So please understand that I'm not complaining about FOF. I love it! And I'm not asking for a real-world football tutorial. I can find that elsewhere.

What FOF needs is an explanation of what FOF is trying to simulate. As players, we need to know not just where the game focuses with great precision, but also where it's more relaxed and abstracted. What are Jim's assumptions about for what situations particular plays and formations (and player skills) are best and worst suited?

Please Jim, tell us how FOF is intended to work - not in specific numbers, just a general philosophy. You don't have to put all the pieces of the puzzle together for us (that's our job as players), just please tell us what the pieces are and how they integrate on a basic level, then we can take it from there. Just some basic information would improve my enjoyment of an already-great game tenfold. :D

[Icy]

Rhone Ranger totally agree with you. I underestand a developer not explaning all about his game engine or how to beat it, that would kill the enjoyment for sure. But i don't like that right now we dont' know how work the more simple stuff, some board members did studies etc etc but i think we should have more info about the game engine to make our decisions. We don't "see" what is going on in the game, and even having tons of stats, we can't know exactly what happened in the field if we don't know how affect our settings to that stats. In offense i can figure what i want to do and how to do it but specialy in defense i'm totally clueless. The same about the players attributes, why we can't know what means each attribute and how does it affect the game? I can guess what is route running, courage etc but it's only my guess so maybe i'm playing bad the game not because the computer beats me using better tactics but because i don't know what means that info it's showed to me.
I can't see the logic to hidde basic info to the gammers, but maybe Jim has his own point of view.

[Warhammer]

What is the effective difference between loose man-to-man and bump-and-run?

I know what they are are in real life, but I can't tell how FOF models them. My hunch was that bump-and-run is a more aggressive kind of coverage, meaning that when it works it really shuts down a receiver, but when it fails it can be burned badly, especially deep (i.e. if the receiver beats the jam and gets behind the DB and turns on the jets). Loose man-to-man seems more conservative, a bit more vulnerable to short passes but less likely to be beaten deep. Maybe also a little better against the run because the DB's attention isn't totally absorbed by the receiver in the first second or two of the play as it would be in bump-and-run.

But you're saying that bump and run is better against the long pass, so maybe my hunch is wrong?

It depends on what else the defense is doing. M2M or bump and run need to have pressure applied against the QB to work effectively. Bump and run can be burned by, or very effective against the deep pass.

1. Defensive pass coverages (man-to-man, bump-and-run, 2-zone, 3-zone, 4-zone). What precisely are they, where do the defensive players line up, and what are their responsibilities? (e.g. if Warhammer is right that a 3-zone means the SS is in the short center of the field, it would really help if FOF confirmed that). In general, what are the strengths and weaknesses of each type of coverage, with regards to the types of passes best (or worst) defended, and how each handles the run? For example, (I'm guessing here) maybe the zone is better against longer passes while bump-and-run is stronger against the short pass? Maybe the zone (all eyes forward) is better against the run than bump-and-run? Maybe man coverage results in lower completion percentages but more big plays for the offense? Is zone the most conservative coverage, with bump the most aggressive, and loose man in between? I'm just guessing... it would be so helpful if the documentation could talk about this, even briefly.

The websites I listed above discuss the different coverages and show the initial defensive set up, although that can be tweaked by each defensive scheme in the league. However, I assume these are "Base" alignments for the coverages. The Cover 2 defense (same as a 2-Deep Zone) can use the CBs in either M2M or zone. This is not a documentation issue, since it is basic football knowledge. There are plenty of places where you can find this information on the internet.

3. In a 3-4 defense, is sending a 4th man to rush the passer considered a "blitz" by FOF? In real life it would not be. I understand if the game interface requires that sending anyone other than a lineman be considered a blitz and that's fine, but it sure would help if the documentation made it clear how the game handles this issue.

My assumption is it is considered a blitz, because it is very common to drop all four LBs into coverage. People would be hacked off if they planned their LBs to drop into coverage, and instead they blitzed.

4. Other than distance covered, are there particular pass patterns that are more effective versus zone than man-to-man coverage, or vice versa? Curls, slants, outs, flys, etc. - which one beats the zone (or man) if any? Does FOF simulate this? It's fine if it doesn't, since there's already a lot to keep track of - I just want to know if I'm missing out on a critical bit of information.

One of the sites I listed above shows the soft spots of the zones. Basically, curls and outs can be very effective against zones. Slants and flys are less so, but this can be mitigated by a top notch receiver.

5. What are the advantages and disadvantages of finesse running plays? My guess is that they are intended to take advantage of "aggressive" run defense at the expense of performing more poorly against standard run defenses. Again, it would be great if the docs could tell us.

From the docs:
The finesse running percentage indicates how many runs featuring misdirection (reverses, counterplays, draws and traps) will be used whenever a running play is called using the selected formation.

I think that pretty much sums it up. These plays all work very weel against aggressive run D.

6. Do tight ends actually pass-block in FOF? They are never tagged with a "sack allowed" in the stats. Further, they only infrequently contribute with regards to "key blocks" in the running game, so is that an intentional design decision in FOF or does the TE affect blocking in a more general way that doesn't show up in the stats?

Yes they do, check the stats screen and select blocking stats. They will have sacks allowed, key blocks, etc. The only way they will have key blocks in the running game is if you attempt to run around the end or outside the tackle on the side they are on.

Just wanted to answer some of your issues that I could address. There really is quite a bit of information available from the help screens on each page in FOF.

[Warhammer]

Rhone Ranger totally agree with you. I underestand a developer not explaning all about his game engine or how to beat it, that would kill the enjoyment for sure. But i don't like that right now we dont' know how work the more simple stuff, some board members did studies etc etc but i think we should have more info about the game engine to make our decisions. We don't "see" what is going on in the game, and even having tons of stats, we can't know exactly what happened in the field if we don't know how affect our settings to that stats. In offense i can figure what i want to do and how to do it but specialy in defense i'm totally clueless. The same about the players attributes, why we can't know what means each attribute and how does it affect the game? I can guess what is route running, courage etc but it's only my guess so maybe i'm playing bad the game not because the computer beats me using better tactics but because i don't know what means that info it's showed to me.
I can't see the logic to hidde basic info to the gammers, but maybe Jim has his own point of view.

Most of the mystery that I have had with FOF I solved by thinking about it. For example, I solved my run D problem by thinking about it. I was playing a lot of M2M coverage, with very aggressive Pass D, so that means that my CBs and safeties were dropping into pass coverage when the ball was snapped. That meant that once the RB was behind my front seven he would get a big gain. That matched up well with what I was seeing happen in my games.

Not only is viewing the box score important, but you really need to look at the game logs as well. Maybe you are only getting beat deep downfield when you are going into a dime package, chances are that your dime DB is the one getting beat, etc.

Plus, think about M2M and bump and run coverages, in the NFL, unless you generate some sort of pass rush, bump and run and M2M coverages can be beaten easily. So you might want to up your blitz % if you use a lot of these coverage types. You might also ask why you are getting eaten alive while running a lot of cover 4, again think about it, 4 players in deep zones? That means the underneath routes are all covered by LBs or 3rd and 4th CBs, a QB can have a field day with short passes.

Defense is much more difficult to figure out than offense, because there are more variables, plus you need to think about what your opponent is going to do. With offense, you pretty much dictate events to your opponent!

[MIJB#19]

Nothing to add, other than "Warhammer, you rock."

[jbmagic]

thanks.. good info here..hopefully this will be sticky to the FOF reference..



For finesse running percentage , what type of running back is good for that.. what ratings i need to look at?


and when looking at stats, and it shows how opponent did on rushing yards to the Left, Middle, Right. What positions on defense is responsible for giving up rushing yards to the left? to the middle? and to the right?

i want to know, this way i know i need to upgrade those defense positions.


and is there a way to tell on pass defense what player position is responsible for giving up the passing yards. which CB player? which strong safety or free safety player?
is there any stats to find out?

thanks

[Warhammer]

thanks.. good info here..hopefully this will be sticky to the FOF reference..



For finesse running percentage , what type of running back is good for that.. what ratings i need to look at?

I would say a back with a good elusiveness, hole recognition, and possibly speed to the outside. Inside power and breakaway speed are not needed for finesse running. For RBs breakaway speed is more of a luxury than a requirement.


and when looking at stats, and it shows how opponent did on rushing yards to the Left, Middle, Right. What positions on defense is responsible for giving up rushing yards to the left? to the middle? and to the right?

i want to know, this way i know i need to upgrade those defense positions.

The middle is taken care of by the DTs and the ILBs/MLB. The Left (I believe) is the LDE and SLB, while the right is the WLB and the RDE. I may be wrong about this, as there has been a lot of discussion about how the defense lines up in regards to the offense.


and is there a way to tell on pass defense what player position is responsible for giving up the passing yards. which CB player? which strong safety or free safety player?
is there any stats to find out?

thanks

This part is hard to decipher. If you have your CBs set to cover based upon LCB/RCB it is almost impossible to tell. If your CBs are set to CB 1/CB 2 then it is easier, you just figure out which WR is the best rated WR on the other team, and go from there.

When you are in a dime and nickel defense it is even more difficult to tell, but if you consistently get beat in one of those defensive packages, chances are it is the dime or nickel DB that is the problem.

If the TE is getting a lot of catches, it is normally a SS or an LB that is getting burned for the catches.

The statistics to look for are your PD%, catches, and passes defensed.

[Rhone Ranger]

Thanks for answering my questions, Warhammer. It's very helpful.

The Cover 2 defense (same as a 2-Deep Zone) can use the CBs in either M2M or zone. This is not a documentation issue, since it is basic football knowledge. There are plenty of places where you can find this information on the internet.

Please note my earlier point about this not being an issue of "What is Cover 2?" but rather, What is FOF trying to simulate.

More specifically, although Jim probably means "Cover 2" when he uses the term "2-Deep Zone", it would be good to see that confirmed explicitly in the documentation. But more importantly...

You mention how in Cover 2 the CBs can play either man or zone. That makes sense for real life. But in FOF there is no game plan control that lets me tell the team to use man or zone (for the CBs) when playing Cover 2. Therefore Jim must have programmed a default behavior, meaning that in FOF the CBs play man in Cover 2, or they play zone in Cover 2. But which is it? Jim hasn't told us. And please note that knowing how it works in the real world doesn't answer the question of how it works in FOF.

And it matters because CBs (and all LBs and DBs) have separate ratings for man and zone coverage abilities. If I'm evaluating whether my CBs are suitable to play Cover 2, I need to know whether Cover 2 - the way Jim has set it up in FOF - is assumed to use man or zone for the CBs. But the FOF documentation is silent on this issue and that creates a problem.

To reiterate - this is not an issue of understanding what Cover 2 does in real life. It's an issue of it not being clear how FOF assumes that Cover 2 is handled. Man or zone coverage for Cover-2 CBs? Even if we know how it's supposed to work in real life, we still don't know how FOF simulates it.

And while on that subject, has anyone else found it slightly odd that all the zone coverages allow you to double-team a WR? That implies that there is at least some man coverage going on in what is named a "zone" defense. Again, I can think of how Jim might have set things up to simulate the complexities of "mixed" real-world pro coverages, but I'm left guessing at how he probably means things to work in the absence of clear information in the documentation.

One of the sites I listed above shows the soft spots of the zones. Basically, curls and outs can be very effective against zones. Slants and flys are less so, but this can be mitigated by a top notch receiver.

Thanks, this makes sense.

One does wonder if this is programmed into FOF however. We can sit here and assume that it is, but we don't know.

As I mentioned previously, pro football is a complex enough subject that it's impossible for any computer simulation, even an excellent one, to include every last tiny variable. Something has to be left out - and should be. But what's been left out of FOF? It would be nice if the documentation could clear it up.



From the docs:
The finesse running percentage indicates how many runs featuring misdirection (reverses, counterplays, draws and traps) will be used whenever a running play is called using the selected formation.

I think that pretty much sums it up. These plays all work very weel against aggressive run D.

Please note that the docs say only that finesse running means misdirection. They don't answer my question, which is: What are the advantages and disadvantages of finesse running plays? The docs say nothing about how finesse runs affect anything.

My hunch is that misdirection beats aggressive run defenses, and that's what you're saying too (and thanks for confirming that).

I'm still left wondering what the downside of misdirection is. Does it perform less well against standard run defenses? How about against pass defenses?


Yes they do, check the stats screen and select blocking stats. They will have sacks allowed, key blocks, etc. The only way they will have key blocks in the running game is if you attempt to run around the end or outside the tackle on the side they are on.

Actually there is a thread in this forum (or maybe the general forum?) that pretty much conclusively proves that TEs are never credited with a sack allowed in FOF, even though a column for sacks allowed exists in the TEs stats. Apparently the sacks allowed column for all TEs will always be zero. So that's why I'm asking. This might be a program bug.

TEs do get run blocks, though it does seem like a low percentage. That could just be my individual experience though, so perhaps there's no problem with TE run blocks.


Just wanted to answer some of your issues that I could address. There really is quite a bit of information available from the help screens on each page in FOF.

Thanks Warhammer I appreciate it.

Unfortunately I've found that the game's help screens do a good job of explaining how the game interface works (i.e. what to click on and where) and also the basic "structure" rules like how many offensive linemen you must have active for a game and things like that. The docs are sufficient to get a person up and playing the game.

But the docs are woefully sparse on giving an understanding of what FOF is trying to simulate, and what Jim's assumptions, abstractions and default behaviors are (and any good game must have these). This makes it frustratingly difficult to get feedback from the game.

I think if Jim wrote up just 3 or 4 pages explaining a few of these sticky questions it would do a world of good. I am willing to volunteer my time to write it up myself if I just had the answers that only the programmer can give. Maybe I will try contacting Jim and see if he's receptive to that idea.

[Celeval]

And while on that subject, has anyone else found it slightly odd that all the zone coverages allow you to double-team a WR? That implies that there is at least some man coverage going on in what is named a "zone" defense.
Not necessarily. Not that I'm the greatest football tactician, but I've keep hearing about 'bracketing' a receiver (a Moss, TO, or even a Crumpler) with hi-lo zones. Swinging the zone coverage a particular way could be interpreted as double-coverage, if for no other reason than to get more defenders near a particular receiver.

[jbmagic]

Rhone Ranger

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showpost.php?p=685374&postcount=30

[jbmagic]

But in FOF there is no game plan control that lets me tell the team to use man or zone (for the CBs) when playing Cover 2. Therefore Jim must have programmed a default behavior, meaning that in FOF the CBs play man in Cover 2, or they play zone in Cover 2. But which is it? Jim hasn't told us. And please note that knowing how it works in the real world doesn't answer the question of how it works in FOF.

And it matters because CBs (and all LBs and DBs) have separate ratings for man and zone coverage abilities. If I'm evaluating whether my CBs are suitable to play Cover 2, I need to know whether Cover 2 - the way Jim has set it up in FOF - is assumed to use man or zone for the CBs. But the FOF documentation is silent on this issue and that creates a problem.
.


i agree i would love to know if i play 2 deep, 3 deep or 4 deep zone, does my CBs, FS, SS and LBs play zone only and that the zone rating on those players matters the most..

or does man to man and bump and run ratings matter too when playing 2 deep, 3 deep and 4 deep zone?

any confirmation thanks

[Cap Ologist]

My guess is that the zone rating applies only for zone defenses, man to man only for man to man defenses, and bump & run for bump & run defenses. It doesn't make sense for Jim to do it any other way.

[Rhone Ranger]

My guess is that the zone rating applies only for zone defenses, man to man only for man to man defenses, and bump & run for bump & run defenses. It doesn't make sense for Jim to do it any other way.

Cap, you're probably right. People are debating exactly what FOF means by its "2-deep zone" in this thread (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=35000).

It looks like it's really just a plain "2-deep zone" (see first illustration titled "2-deep zone w/5 under" (http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1430750.html)) and not "Cover 2".

Warhammer can't be faulted for thinking it was meant to be Cover 2 though. And that's what I'm trying to say here: FOF is such a great game but the lack of documentation has us all scratching our heads about what many of the terms in the game mean and what they're supposed to do.

Even a guy like Warhammer who obviously knows a lot about real-life football may have mistaken what Jim meant by "2-deep zone". So I'm sure I'm misinterpreting a lot more than that when I play.

I guess what frustrates me is that Jim has obviously spent so much time and energy crafting FOF, a true labor of love for us football fans, but so much of the depth that I know is in there is hidden by a fog of insufficient documentation and therefore goes unnoticed and unappreciated by a person like me. A little more in the docs and all of this could be opened up so easily. The hard part was designing and programming this game, and Jim has done it successfully. The easy part should be writing up a few pages explaining it, so it's a shame that this hasn't happened.

I still like the game though. :) But "like" would become "love" if FOF's terms and behaviors were better explained instead of leaving us all guessing like this.

[jbmagic]

thanks

when your on offense, how do you know if Your Tightend will go out for a pass or stay in and pass block?

Cap Ologist
when playing the 2,3,4 deep zone, the position i need to worry about that has good zone rating is CBs, FS, SS, and LBs ? is this correct?


ok guys after some research this is correct:
when playing defense The middle runs by the offense is taken care of by the DTs and MLB. The Left runs by the offense is taken care by RDE, while the right runs is taken care by the LDE."

SLBs and WLBs don't take a "set" side of the field. The SLB plays on the strong side and WLB takes the weak side. There's no left or right. The strong side and weak side can change with each and every play.

[Warhammer]

Please note that the docs say only that finesse running means misdirection. They don't answer my question, which is: What are the advantages and disadvantages of finesse running plays? The docs say nothing about how finesse runs affect anything.

My hunch is that misdirection beats aggressive run defenses, and that's what you're saying too (and thanks for confirming that).

I'm still left wondering what the downside of misdirection is. Does it perform less well against standard run defenses? How about against pass defenses?


If you look at Pro Football (I know you are going to say, "Well, that is great, but how did Jim model it?") traps, counters, and reverses all work well against an aggressive run D. These types of plays take advantage of the D over-pursuing or only worrying about getting up field to get the ball carrier.

The downside of misdirection is against a normal, disciplined run defense, it is liable to be set for a loss. Think of it like a screen play, they work great against a blitz, but if the play is snuffed out, it can be a big loss. I would imagine finesse run plays against a pass D could work well, I would consider a draw as a type of finesse play. I would say it would work better against a passive pass D than a passive run D. It would work better against an aggressive run D than an aggressive pass D.

As an aside, Jim really has modeled a lot of this off of the NFL. For the most part, you can sort through things by thinking about confusing items in those terms. The only items that I am confused about is the Cover 2 scheme, although my experience is the better your CBs are at both M2M and zone, the better it goes, and I can't think of the other right now. It's too early in the morning.

[Warhammer]

thanks

when your on offense, how do you know if Your Tightend will go out for a pass or stay in and pass block?

Cap Ologist
when playing the 2,3,4 deep zone, the position i need to worry about that has good zone rating is CBs, FS, SS, and LBs ? is this correct?


ok guys after some research this is correct:
when playing defense The middle runs by the offense is taken care of by the DTs and MLB. The Left runs by the offense is taken care by RDE, while the right runs is taken care by the LDE."

SLBs and WLBs don't take a "set" side of the field. The SLB plays on the strong side and WLB takes the weak side. There's no left or right. The strong side and weak side can change with each and every play.

Good point, that is why the strength left or right is mentioned on the play. That indicates which side the TE lines up on, and that is where the SLB lines up, WLB gets the other side.

When playing a zone, your LBs take the short zones (they need good zone D), depending on the zone, the CBs and Ss take the deep zones (each of whom need good zone D). The only one I am not sure about is the Cover 2, my experience shows that I have better luck running a cover 2 with CBs with good zone and M2M skills.

I do not know the answer to the TE question.