Baseball: Most Underrated Players All-time Edition

[oykib]

I'm getting psyched because of pitchers and catchers.

So I'm figuring it's time for one of those spinning-your-wheels, silly-assed-list exercises.

What's your All-time underrated team.

The rules are that the player cannot be a Hall of Famer.

The player can also not be either Shoeless Joe or Charlie Hustle.

Catcher
First Baseman
Second Baseman
Third Baseman
Shortstop
Left Fielder
Center Fielder
Right Fielder

Starting Pitcher
Relief Pitcher

Utility Player (any extra infielder or outfileder that played multiple positions)

[Crapshoot]

3b - Ron Santo - the best player not in the HOF - a good defensive 3b with a career OPS+ of 125 - and a damn good defensive player. Bill James has him 6th all time among 3b. The idiocy of the sportswriters and the useless veterans committee is all that is keeping him out.

SP- Bert Blyven - 5000 IP at an ERA+ of 118. Too many people look at the W-L record without understanding that it is a fairly useless statistic to evaluate a pitcher properly. Blyven was very good, for a very long time - he has peak value (4 seasons with an ERA+ of over 140) and a distinguished, good career. Hell, he's more of a HOF than the likes of Nolan "First Ballot" Ryan.

[oykib]

Catcher -- Bill Freehan
First Baseman -- Will Clark
Second Baseman -- Max Bishop
Third Baseman -- Ron Santo
Shortstop -- Barry Larkin
Left Fielder -- Tim Raines
Center Fielder -- Eric Davis
Right Fielder -- Bobby Abreu

Starting Pitcher -- Bert Blyleven
Relief Pitcher -- Goose Gossage

Utility Player -- Craig Biggio

[oykib]

I have two of your guys on my list, Crapshoot.

It's hard coming up with a full list though.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Jim Walewander for whatever position he played.

[Klinglerware]

Most of these guys had been all-stars at some point in their careers, how could they be underrated?

[Leonidas]

Catcher - Ted Simmons (best hitting C of his day)
First Baseman - Andre Thornton (a personal fav)
Second Baseman - Frank White (maybe the best defensive 2B not named Mazeroski)
Third Baseman - Al Rosen (on his way to Cooperstown before hurting his back)
Shortstop - Allen Trammel (unjustly left out of the Hall)
Left Fielder - Jim Rice (most feared hitter of the 70's)
Center Fielder - Paul Blair (another candidate for best defensive OF ever)
Right Fielder - Dwight Evans (maybe the best defensive OF ever, and a pretty damn good hitter too)

Starting Pitcher - Jack Morris (Blyleven was too easy to pick)
Relief Pitcher - Goose Gossage (I thought he was better than Fingers)

[Crapshoot]

Morris ? Morris who got more HOF balloting than Bleyen ? Morris who had a career OPS+ of about 104 ?

And Okyib, your list is dead on- especially Abreau. My god, he's one of the 10-15 best players in baseball consistently - and yet, no love.

[Leonidas]

Morris ? Morris who got more HOF balloting than Bleyen ? Morris who had a career OPS+ of about 104 ?

And Okyib, your list is dead on- especially Abreau. My god, he's one of the 10-15 best players in baseball consistently - and yet, no love.

I would have gone with Bly, but everyone else is all over him already so I just wanted to throw another option out there. I suppose I could have gone with Mickey Lolich or Jerry Reuss as well. Or how about the late great James Rodney Richard.

[Crapshoot]

I would have gone with Bly, but everyone else is all over him already so I just wanted to throw another option out there. I suppose I could have gone with Mickey Lolich or Jerry Reuss as well. Or how about the late great James Rodney Richard.

I would agree with you on Lolich actually- good choice. But I think the fact that Morris got a signifcant positive on a HOF ballot he belongs nowhere near stops him from being underrated.

[Ksyrup]

Morris ? Morris who got more HOF balloting than Bleyen ? Morris who had a career OPS+ of about 104 ?
If Morris' OPS+ is 104, then he should definitely be a lock for the Hall. :p

[oykib]

I thought about J.R. Richard as well.

But my next guy would have likely been Bret Saberhagen.

[Crapshoot]

If Morris' OPS+ is 104, then he should definitely be a lock for the Hall. :p

Game Set Match, Ksyrup. :D

ERA+ it is.

[Johnny93g]

Dave Steib and George Bell

[MrBug708]

Brett Butler was an underappreciated leadoff hitter and OF. He almost never made a mistake and he knew how to get on base and is my favorite baseball player

[Ramzavail]

First Baseman - Frank Thomas, I think everybody thinks this guy is borderline HOF, I think he's a sure lock - He was animal at the plate, He had a crazy 90's and got robbed in 2000 from Giambi for the MVP.
Shortstop - Cecil Travis - Pre War - this guy was nasty.
Left Fielder - Rickey Henderson, I think he's underrated, since I place him as the greatest offensive player of our generation

Starting Pitcher - J.R. Richard - No Doubt.
Relief Pitcher - Goose Gossage - I think if he retired after 1985, he would be in the HOF, but he didnt and pitched another 8 years with subpar seasons.

Thats all I got right now.

[bosshogg23]

I thought 2B Lou Whitaker was a HOFer in his playing days. Doesnt seem anyone else agrees(except Rob Neyer). Im sure some people dont vote for him because he was considered a jerk.

[DeToxRox]

2B: Lou Whitaker
SS: Alan Trammel

As a Tigers fan its obvious for me, but it was picked on espn.com as the best DP combo ever. It's hard to argue. So solid, always doing the right things. Should be in the hall.

[WSUCougar]

Leonidas, I agree completely with your Frank White (2B) and Dwight Evans (RF) picks. Those are two of my favorite players from that era.

Eric Davis is another good one, oykib. When he was "on" the guy was an absolute wrecking crew on offense, and he could play center very well.

[Ksyrup]

2B: Lou Whitaker
SS: Alan Trammel

As a Tigers fan its obvious for me, but it was picked on espn.com as the best DP combo ever. It's hard to argue. So solid, always doing the right things. Should be in the hall.
I think Trammell's a HOF'er but Whitaker falls just short, which, IMO, is one of the reasons Trammell doesn't get as much support as he should - people see them as a tandem and can't vote for both of them.

[oykib]

Dave Steib and George Bell

George Bell?!?

He had a lifetime .316 OBP and was the worst defensive outfielder this side of Lonnie Smith.

[WSUCougar]

I'm curious what the rest of you think of Kent Hrbek's career. He always seemed to be a solid, consistent offensive and defensive player.

[ISiddiqui]

Craig Biggio has been greatly underrated for a lot of his career. He's a fantasic player. It's just underscored by the fact that he's winning to go from position to position to help his team out.

[WSUCougar]

Craig Biggio has been greatly underrated for a lot of his career. He's a fantasic player. It's just underscored by the fact that he's winning to go from position to position to help his team out.
I like Biggio and he's a guy I'd want on my team, but I do think he's received plenty of recognition over the years. Perhaps that's because I live in STL and thus in the same division, but it seems like he's well-recognized as a high-quality veteran.

My personal opinion is that he's a sub-standard defensive outfielder, but still a scrappy, clutch hitter.

[Crapshoot]

Biggio is one of the 3 or 4 best players of the 90's, and should be a slam dunk no questions asked HOF.

[DanGarion]

I thought about J.R. Richard as well.

But my next guy would have likely been Bret Saberhagen.
Haha

Bret Saviorhagen... :D

[JeeberD]

My personal opinion is that he's a sub-standard defensive outfielder...


Yes, yes he is. But we still love him anyways...

I would almost be in favor of putting him back at second and giving Lane a shot at full time in the outfield, but I think that it's time to see what Chris Burke can do...

[Maple Leafs]

SS Tony Fernandez, in addition to being arguably the first true Dominican star, was an excellent fielder and a very solid hitter. His numbers are fairly comparable to Trammell (except for HRs), yet he doesn't get anywhere near the same level of acclaim that Trammell does.

[ISiddiqui]

Ah, being in the New York metro area for most of the 90s, I didn't really get the sense of Biggio as being one of the best from the media there.

[oykib]

Haha

Bret Saviorhagen... :D

Saberhagen was actually an amazing pitcher-- not just good, AMAZING.

He was a guy that his managers didn't understand how to use correctly.

Had he gotten the Pedro Martinez treatment, he wouldn't just be a Hall of Famer. He'd have been an all-time great.

Take a guess what his career ERA+ was.















126

That's from a guy who'd have a great year and be pitched into oblivion by his manager. The following year he'd be mediocre as he fought through the injuries and fatigue he'd built up. Then he'd be great again the next year and go through the cycle all over again.

That 126 ERA+ is 49th all time by the way. And he has over 280 decisions and 2500+ innings pitched. So we're not talking about a flash in the pan. His Strikeout-to-Walk ratio was better than 3:1.

This guy was a great pitcher. And he would have been even better had his managers realized that he was a 180 to 220 inning pitcher rather than a 220 to 260 inning pitcher.

[WSUCougar]

I'm curious what the rest of you think of Kent Hrbek's career. He always seemed to be a solid, consistent offensive and defensive player.
No one?

[bosshogg23]

I'm curious what the rest of you think of Kent Hrbek's career. He always seemed to be a solid, consistent offensive and defensive player.

I thought he was a good player, borderline All-Star. I think the biggest problem he had was that he played with Kirby Puckett and Puckett showed everyone how a GREAT player plays. Gary Gaetti also tended to overshadow him.

[lynchjm24]

No one?

He was a good player, but was never a viable HOF candidate. He was very consistent and reached the majors at a young age, but last played at 34. Didn't have enough of a bat to be an 'elite' first baseman, was only an all-star once and only finished in the top ten of the MVP voting once (he finished 2nd in 1984).

For a recent comp, I'd say that Tino Martinez fits that bill pretty well.

[Johnny93g]

George Bell?!?

He had a lifetime .316 OBP and was the worst defensive outfielder this side of Lonnie Smith.

I dont know his career stats...all i know he was an rbi machine, who won a mvp.....i miss the bells everyone would ring when he came to the plate at exhibition stadium

[oykib]

I dont know his career stats...all i know he was an rbi machine, who won a mvp.....i miss the bells everyone would ring when he came to the plate at exhibition stadium

He was a good player. And at his best he was a very good player.

But he'd go on my overrated players list to be honest.

RBIs are just much a product of guys getting on in front of you as your own skill.

He didn't contribute much in the field (although there's this fluky George Bell stat where he led AL outfielders in errors two years in a row, but none of his miscues led to any unearned runs-- and we're talking ~25 errors here-- go figure)

For instance, taking his 1987 MVP award, Mark McGwire had a significantly better season as a power hitter and did it in a pitcher's park. But Big Mac lost out on the MVP because he was a rookie and he had 16 less RBIs.

Alan Trammell also had a noticeably better season. And if the award were given today would likely have won it.

Wade Boggs was having the best season of his career, and was the most feared hitter in the league. He could have easily won it as well.


Player Pos Team AVG OBP SLG HR Runs RBI SB/CS
Bell OF 2nd .308 .352 .605 47 111 134 5/1
Mcgwire 1B 3rd .289 .370 .618 49 97 118 1/1
Trammell SS 1st .343 .402 .551 28 109 105 21/2
Boggs 3B 5th .363 .461 .588 24 108 89 1/3

IMO, "run producers" tend to be overrated. It's the all-around guys-- like Trammell-- that are underrated. Leadoff guys are also not given the respect that they deserve.

[Johnny93g]

I still love George, and an very proud that he is my favourite player of all-time.....followed by Dave Steib, Tony Fernandez, Pat Hentgan, and Carlos Delgado....can you tell im a Jay fan.....lol

[sterlingice]

Or how about the late great James Rodney Richard.
Well, JR's "problem" is that he was one of those bright stars who shone intense and then burned out after his arm went out. Obviously the real question would be "what would he have done if he hadn't suffered a stroke".

Brett Butler was an underappreciated leadoff hitter and OF. He almost never made a mistake and he knew how to get on base and is my favorite baseball player
I never followed the Dodgers much but in the games I saw, about half the rallies started because he had a knack for getting on base in opportune situations.

SI

[sterlingice]

I have to add Mark Grace. I know that clutch has pretty much been proven to be a statistical mirage in people's minds but during any of his best years with the Cubs, it wasn't Sandberg or Dawson or Sosa or anyone else I wanted to see up with the game on the line, it was him.

Another player I've thought has never gotten his due is Rafael Palmeiro. He went *9* straight years with 38+ homers and 100+ RBI. How many others can say that even in this inflated age? 8 of his top 10 comprables are HOF'ers and Fred McGriff is another. Yet his biggest headlines were when he endorsed Viagra.

SI

[oykib]

Rafy is definitely underrated. I remember when he was approaching 500 homers there were questions as to whether he was a future Hall of Famer or not.

Ridiculous.

If it takes you more than two seconds to answer that question in the affirmative, you don't know much about baseball. But most of the columns I remember were iffy on that proposition.