Mark McGwire

[Kodos]

I think he did.

[sooner333]

Me too.

[SackAttack]

Me too.

Like somebody else we know? *cough*

[sterlingice]

I presume we aren't including creatin as a steroid since it's a supplement instead? It's kindof semantics but it's kindof not.

SI

[sooner333]

Like somebody else we know? *cough*

Yep, and about most of the other 50 home run hitters of our generation.

[WrongWay]

I presume we aren't including creatin as a steroid since it's a supplement instead? It's kindof semantics but it's kindof not.

SI
Last time I checked you do not shoot creatine in the ass!

In the ultimate steroid sport "Bodybuilding" they have 2 seperate leagues; one for the roiders and one for the naturals. If you are going to compete in a natural competition not only do you have to take the standard steroid blood test, but you must also take a Polygraph test as well.

Who will be the first Baseball player to get hooked up to the Poly-Machine to testify that he has never, ever taken a performance enhancing drug?

Hey MAC I'll get the machine all warmed up for you. :D

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Before:

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/mcgwire87tp.jpg


After:

http://eponinebob.tripod.com/mcgwire/practice33.jpg

[sterlingice]

Wow! He turned into an "Image hosted by tripod" logo :D

SI

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Wow! He turned into an "Image hosted by tripod" logo :D

SI

Comes up fine for me...

Think about it. Without the roids, he could have been this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/03/20/sayitaintso_seahawks/mcgwire_all.jpg

(sorry Seahawk fans. but remember, he was the 16th overall pick. and I guess since he was 6-8 he had to be better than that QB Atlanta drafted in the 2nd round...)

[Young Drachma]

I think McGwire did, too. No matter what Tony LaRussa says.

[DanGarion]

Let's all remember that McGwire hit 49 homers his rookie year when he looked like the guy in that 1987 Topps card...

[rkmsuf]

Did

[CleBrownsfan]

I also think he did...

with that said - with steroids being a huge issue in baseball now - do you feel that production in offense will dramatically decrease? Will we see in a couple years 35 HR's will be consider a power hitter??

[sportsfan13]

I also think he did...

with that said - with steroids being a huge issue in baseball now - do you feel that production in offense will dramatically decrease? Will we see in a couple years 35 HR's will be consider a power hitter??

Yes, I think we will. I think players are going to be afraid to chance losing their reputations to get a couple extra HR's. McGwire weighed about 165 his rookie year. Now, his left arm weighs 165!!! :eek:

[DanGarion]

And he hit 49 homers. I will keep pushing this fact. Everyone says "he did this" "he did that". He did 49 homers his ROOKIE year.

[Poli]

I think he did it clean. I was just telling Mizzourah that I could probably see him taking stuff that was legal then, but isn't now (such as andro).

[DanGarion]

I think he did it clean. I was just telling Mizzourah that I could probably see him taking stuff that was legal then, but isn't now (such as andro).
Yeah there is no question he did andro, but he wasn't purposing doing it to have an unfair advantage and when he realized the effect it could have on the children that idolized him he stopped.

[Klinglerware]

And he hit 49 homers. I will keep pushing this fact. Everyone says "he did this" "he did that". He did 49 homers his ROOKIE year.

Steroids can be used for multiple purposes: to build muscle, to heal from injury, etc. Like you said, McGwire already had natural power, so I doubt that if he did use, it was for performance enhancement in that narrow sense. But remember, he was injured through most of the 90s--except for a stretch of 3 seasons in the late 90s when he was already in his mid to late 30s. My guess is that if he used, he did it to treat injury and keep himself available to play throughout a 162 game season, a concern especially as he got older. He did admit to using andro in this period--a low level anabolic steroid...

[DanGarion]

True. Steroids as a baseball use I think we be most helpful to players that need to to bounce back quicker. I remember McGwire and his heel injury, and I think he also had a back injury.

Maybe I'd just rather think he didn't do it. No one will ever know the truth.

[primelord]

And he hit 49 homers. I will keep pushing this fact. Everyone says "he did this" "he did that". He did 49 homers his ROOKIE year.
Keep in mind I am a huge Cardinals fan and also a big McGwire fan. However the 49 HRs his rookie year doesn't prove anything to me. It's not just the total number of HRs McGwire hit, but the rate at which he was hitting them that is a bit suspect. His rookie year he hit one HR every 11.3 at bats. Here are the AB/HR numbers for his career:

Year Age AB/HR
1987 23 11.4
1988 24 17.2
1989 25 14.8
1990 26 13.4
1991 27 22.0
1992 28 11.1
1993 29 9.3 (only 84 ABs)
1994 30 15.0 (only 135 ABs)
1995 31 8.1
1996 32 8.1
1997 33 9.3
1998 34 7.3
1999 35 8.0
2000 36 7.4
2001 37 10.3

His numbers just don't follow the historical pattern of a power hitter. Power hitters don't have their most prolific seasons at 34 and 35. I don't think anyone doubts that McGwire had a ton of natural power. And I am not certain I believe Canseco's account of things. If anything McGwires numbers went down the years that Canseco says he started taking steroids, but he turns 31 and suddenly starts hitting HRs at a historic rate for the next 6 years? Something just isn't right about that.

I guess like all Bonds fans I am/was hoping McGwire wasn't using steroids, but the circumstantial evidence certainly seems to be there.

[DanGarion]

Keep in mind I am a huge Cardinals fan and also a big McGwire fan. However the 49 HRs his rookie year doesn't prove anything to me. It's not just the total number of HRs McGwire hit, but the rate at which he was hitting them that is a bit suspect. His rookie year he hit one HR every 11.3 at bats. Here are the AB/HR numbers for his career:



Between the 80s-00s MLB expanded from 26-30 teams. This in turn diluted the pitching talent in baseball. Along with this there is the whole "juiced ball theory" which I think goes with the fact that the MLB wanted to get people interested in baseball again after the strike.

These could all be factors that could contribute the the rise in his and the rest of MLBs rise in hr/ab.

[sportsfan13]

the thing is, if he had so many homers in his rookie year, why would he do steroids? Either he did it to have more HR's or he didn't do it at all and just naturally gained 200lbs. in his neck alone. It may not be steroids, but no one just gets that big naturally. And no one better say it was spinach......and milk doesn't do a body that good!

[DanGarion]

the thing is, if he had so many homers in his rookie year, why would he do steroids? Either he did it to have more HR's or he didn't do it at all and just naturally gained 200lbs. in his neck alone. It may not be steroids, but no one just gets that big naturally. And no one better say it was spinach......and milk doesn't do a body that good!
But learning how to work out and train does. He still looks cut today as he did when he was in the late 90's. Since he's no longer playing he no longer needs the bulk.

I think his size is just a matter of his routine, which he contines to this day.

[Maple Leafs]

I haven't seen any real evidence that he did, but common sense is hard to ignore here. We know now (as we always suspected) that steroid use was rampant during the last era among power hitters. Given that, it's awfully hard for me to believe that the best power hitter of all didn't use them.

It reminds me of the Carl Lewis situation. Is there proof that he used steroids? No, but we know that lots of his opponents did. It seems to defy common sense to think that a guy could compete (and dominate) in an era of rampant steroid use but not be using them himself. Same with McGwire.

At least with Lewis, you can make the argument that he didn't look like a user -- he didn't have the body type you might expect. McGwire was just huge. It's certainly possible that he got that way clean, while everyone else was cheating. It's possible that he was so good that he could hit more HRs than anyone else even though they were cheating and he wasn't. But it sure is hard to swallow.

[JeeberD]

I want to believe that he was clean...

[MizzouRah]

Me too Jeebs. Was the Andro planted to get the media off his back? We'll never know.. but I don't think he took shots of steriods.


Todd

[WSUCougar]

I think dangarion makes some excellent points in this thread.

To me it boils down to a few salient points:

1. He clearly had ample HR power from the beginning
2. It is a documented fact that the guy was a workout freak, and he has a big frame.
3. He took andro
4. It's obvious the guy bulked up a great deal from the middle to end of his career
5. He hit homeruns at a record pace late in his career

So the question I have for the McGwire skeptics is this: Why do you believe that it is so unlikely to achieve the results he did through consistent, extensive workouts and andro?

The steroid case is purely speculative, or comes from the mouth of a guy I can't trust.

[revrew]

I'm inclined to believe he did, not because of his stats, but because of his appearance. I remember the 49-home run kid with lightning bat speed (often a better judge of HR ability than pure strength). And, through the years, that kid bulked up. But all his injuries should have slowed the bulking process. Instead, he looks like a He-Man doll, and his face became all pock-marked and distorted. I don't think that's just a man aging, I think that's a man aging with chemicals in his blood.

[primelord]

Between the 80s-00s MLB expanded from 26-30 teams. This in turn diluted the pitching talent in baseball. Along with this there is the whole "juiced ball theory" which I think goes with the fact that the MLB wanted to get people interested in baseball again after the strike.

These could all be factors that could contribute the the rise in his and the rest of MLBs rise in hr/ab.
There is no question that expansion has diluted the pitching some and I agree that it has helped contribute to the increased offensive production int he league. Certainly the smaller ballparks have added to that as well. However this isn't about the league as a whole this is about McGwire. McGwire's production went way up well after expansion had already taken place. It also went way up late in his career which again just doesn't happen historically for power hitters.

Here is what we know. No one could ever prove the "juiced ball" theory despite people testing the baseballs during that time. As Canseco said now that it is becoming obvious many players were using steroids isn't far more likely the players were juiced rather than the ball? We have evidence of players being juiced and no evidence of the ball being juiced.

[primelord]

So the question I have for the McGwire skeptics is this: Why do you believe that it is so unlikely to achieve the results he did through consistent, extensive workouts and andro.?
Why wouldn't people believe it was possible for Bonds? Because in general it just doesn't happen. Is it humanly possible? Probably. The much more likely answer is that he had help. I am not saying I am positive he used steroids, but if it walks like a duck...

What we know is that he was able to produce HRs at a rate late in his career only matched or exceeded by Bonds (who was using steroids). He went from a guy who averaged 36 HRs per 500 at bats between 23-30 to a guy who averaged 60 HRs (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif) per 500 at bats between 31-37. A jump of 24 HRs per 500 at bats in the latter half of his career? Something just isn't right about that.

[Warhammer]

But learning how to work out and train does. He still looks cut today as he did when he was in the late 90's. Since he's no longer playing he no longer needs the bulk.

I think his size is just a matter of his routine, which he contines to this day.

But keep this in mind, he more than double in size. Also, the roids users tend to be the workout warriors, not the other way around.

I used to work out quite a bit in the day, and for me at least, I never was able to put the bulk on. My legs developed, but I was never able to get my upper body to develop. Each person is different, and he may have needed the roids to keep the bulk on. I think it is telling that he is still pretty cut, but does not have the bulk any more.

[Swaggs]

Put me in the camp of people who think he probably did. If not a regular user, I believe that he, at the very least, tried.

Along with everything else, to me, it is just too much coincidence that players that he played with at different times (Canseco and Giambi) have both admitted to it. I think it would be hard to pass it up if others that you are playing with are having such an easy time of it and making their money easier, while you are working your ass off. The evidence is all circumstantial, but there sure is a lot of it.

[KWhit]

He did it.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Yes, I think we will. I think players are going to be afraid to chance losing their reputations to get a couple extra HR's. McGwire weighed about 165 his rookie year. Now, his left arm weighs 165!!! :eek:

Actually, I have heard he lost a LOT of weight since he quit playing. I haven't seen him, but I heard he doesn't look like a gorilla anymore...

[JeeberD]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/features/2005_swimsuit/models/images/05_athletes_04.jpg

Picture of him and his wife in the SI swimsuit issue. May not be safe for work due to wifey being in a bikini...

[rafini]

There's a picture of him in the new SI Swimsuit issue:

hxxp://msn.foxsports.com/other/pgStory?contentId=3398476&pageNumber=2

He doesn't really look cut through the waist area any more.

[Greyroofoo]

I could swear I've seen an interview with Mark saying that he took steroids back in the mid 80s, however the steroid he took wasn't banned yet

[Arles]

Yes, I think we will. I think players are going to be afraid to chance losing their reputations to get a couple extra HR's. McGwire weighed about 165 his rookie year. Now, his left arm weighs 165!!! :eek:
Mac weighed 220 pounds in 1987 and about 215 while at USC. At his highest weight, Mac was at 245-250. That means that his weight increased a grand total of 25-30 pounds over his 14-year career.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/features/2005_swimsuit/models/images/05_athletes_04.jpg

Picture of him and his wife in the SI swimsuit issue. May not be safe for work due to wifey being in a bikini...

He's still in good shape, but I'd say he's lost 30 lbs or so.

His wife looks like one of those women who lookss good with makeup and airbrushing. In the morning I bet she looks like Ann Coulter.

[Arles]

Keep in mind I am a huge Cardinals fan and also a big McGwire fan. However the 49 HRs his rookie year doesn't prove anything to me. It's not just the total number of HRs McGwire hit, but the rate at which he was hitting them that is a bit suspect. His rookie year he hit one HR every 11.3 at bats. Here are the AB/HR numbers for his career:

Year Age AB/HR
1987 23 11.4
1988 24 17.2
1989 25 14.8
1990 26 13.4
1991 27 22.0
1992 28 11.1
1993 29 9.3 (only 84 ABs)
1994 30 15.0 (only 135 ABs)
1995 31 8.1
1996 32 8.1
1997 33 9.3
1998 34 7.3
1999 35 8.0
2000 36 7.4
2001 37 10.3

His numbers just don't follow the historical pattern of a power hitter.
If you take out the three seasons he had fairly serious injury issues (91, 93 and 94), you are left with this:

Year Age AB/HR
1987 23 11.4
1988 24 17.2
1989 25 14.8
1990 26 13.4
1992 28 11.1
1995 31 8.1
1996 32 8.1
1997 33 9.3
1998 34 7.3
1999 35 8.0
2000 36 7.4
2001 37 10.3

Seems to me like he was gradually becoming a better hitter and topped out in his early 30s (which isn't that far off the normal 27-29 power hitter peak). Don't forget that in 1998 we had two new franchises and Busch pulled in the fences a bit in 1997. There are enough mitigating factors in the league in 1998 that could explain his slight blip (from 8.1 to 7.3) on AB/HR. Aaron had similar increases later in his career when the changed the mound height.

As to the general question, I don't see how anyone can say definitively that he used or didn't use. There's too much grey area. That said, I don't think the numbers and the evidence at hand lead to the conclusion that he used. But I could see how people may differ who don't look as deep into the changes (he only varied about 30 pounds in his career, AB/HR ratio in non-injured season, his workout regimen).

[primelord]

Arlie,

Here are the HR per 500 at bat numbers for the top 16 leaders from ages 23-30 and then 31-37

Name 23-30 31-37 Change
Hank Aaron 31 27 (-4)
Babe Ruth 42 48 (+6)
Barry Bonds 31 48 (+17)
Willie Mays 32 34 (+2)
Frank Robinson 31 28 (-3)
Mark McGwire 36 61 (+25)
Sammy Sosa 36 44 (+8)
Harmon Killebrew 39 34 (-5)
Reggie Jackson 30 30 (0)
Rafael Palmeiro 19 36 (+17)
Mike Schmidt 33 35 (+2)
Mickey Mantle 40 30 (-10)
Jimmie Foxx 38 26 (-12)
Willie McCovey 35 35 (0)
Ted Williams 33 37 (+4)

There seem to be 3 staistical anomalies in increases. McGwire, Bonds, and Palmeiro had very big upswings. Now we know Bonds took steroids and both McGwire and Palmeiro are suspected of it. Sosa is only 35 and if he has another couple of seasons like last year his difference will shrink more. Bonds numbers actually get more ridiculous when you add in his last few years after 37.

Aaron did see a bit of a jump on AB/HR towards the end of his career, but he didn't see anywhere near the jump McGwire did. From the AB/HR numbers you listed Arlie there is a huge difference between 11/HR and 8/HR. Even if it was just a steady progression it isn't normal for it to continue on as long as it did for him. He saw a very significant increase in production after 31 years old and that just doesn't happen.

So again it comes down to is he the exception to the rule or did he get some illegal help. We can certainly say he is a freak of nature and managed to accomplish what no one else in history was able to accomplish (or even come close to) or we can look at the fact that he seemed to get unnaturally big and produce unnatural results late in his career that only someone who has been shown to have taken steroids could come close to. The evidence certainly seems to strongly suggest he got help from steroids.

[Franklinnoble]

His wife looks like one of those women who lookss good with makeup and airbrushing. In the morning I bet she looks like Ann Coulter.

I'd still hit it.

[dixieflatline]

Not to say that he wasn't using steroids but Mac also became a much more patient hitter as he got older so some of the disparity goes away when you look at PA/HR.


year PA/HR
1987 13.1
1988 19.8
1989 17.8
1990 16.7
1991 26.6
1992 13.6
1993 11.9
1994 19.1
1995 10.8
1996 10.5
1997 11.3
1998 9.7
1999 10.2
2000 10.0
2001 12.6

Things even out even more when you apply park effects to these numbers. The coliseum in oakland was surpressing homers by more than 10% when he started playing in the mid 80's. That effect did level off though as we got into the 90's. Did they move in the fences or cut down the foul ground? In any case, Busch slightly inflated his homers when he got there. After aplying park factors the numbers look like:


year PA/HR
1987 10.5
1988 16.6
1989 14.8
1990 14.4
1991 24.4
1992 13.9
1993 12.0
1994 17.7
1995 10.5
1996 9.2
1997 10.7
1998 10.0
1999 11.1
2000 10.7
2001 12.8

There still is improvement in his 30's but now it's not as eye popping as with the uncorrected AB/HR.

[primelord]

There still is improvement in his 30's but now it's not as eye popping as with the uncorrected AB/HR.
It's actually just as eye popping. There is a big difference between 14/HR and 10/HR.

[dixieflatline]

Well in the AB/HR even in his rookie year he didn't approach the production he had when he was in his 30's where now that year is right in line with what he did in his 30's. Mac clearly had some HR potential when younger and if he didn't get injuried maybe he would have put up better numbers when he was younger. I think the bigger issue is that with players today there is just less of a drop off as they age. Look at the numbers that some older sluggers are putting up now. In the 60's when you got to be in your middle 30's there generally was a big drop off from your peak years. There just isn't any drop off in Mac's(of other sluggers) number however you slice it.

[Karlifornia]

Mark McGwire definitely didn't do it. He's a nice guy. Bonds? Oh he did it. He's not very nice!

[Kodos]

Mark McGwire definitely didn't do it. He's a nice white guy. Bonds? Oh he did it. He's not very white!

:p

[sterlingice]

:p
While perhaps it does have to do with the nice or not thing, I'm pretty sure it's not a racial thing. People loved Sammy every bit as much as McGwire until this past year or two. If it is about that, it has a lot more to do with the fact that Bonds is a prick.

Tho maybe you were being sarcastic and I missed the sarcasm tags on the net. Happens all the time to me :p

SI

[Kodos]

Basically, I was just saying that I think McGwire seems to get more benefit of the doubt than folks like Bonds and Sosa, and one theory would be it is because he is white. I suspect of lot of the "benefit" for McGwire comes from the fact that he generally seems more likable than Bonds, and to a lesser degree, he's also more likable than Sosa (even before the corking incident).

[VPI97]

Basically, I was just saying that I think McGwire seems to get more benefit of the doubt than folks like Bonds and Sosa, and one theory would be it is because he is white. I suspect of lot of the "benefit" for McGwire comes from the fact that he generally seems more likable than Bonds, and to a lesser degree, he's also more likable than Sosa (even before the corking incident). I would say more of it comes from the fact that he's been a home run hitter for all of his career, rather than someone who 'grew' (pun intended) into that role.

[primelord]

Basically, I was just saying that I think McGwire seems to get more benefit of the doubt than folks like Bonds and Sosa, and one theory would be it is because he is white. I suspect of lot of the "benefit" for McGwire comes from the fact that he generally seems more likable than Bonds, and to a lesser degree, he's also more likable than Sosa (even before the corking incident).
I do think the biggest reason people tend to accuse Bonds more quickly than McGwire is because he is perceived as a jerk. However his situation is also even more unusal than McGwire's. While McGwire did have a crazy jump in production later in his career he did seem to be building towards it more than Bonds was. A quick look at Bonds AB/HR numbers:

Year Age AB/HR
1986 21 25.8
1987 22 22.0
1988 23 22.4
1989 24 30.5
1990 25 15.7
1991 26 20.4
1992 27 13.9
1993 28 11.7
1994 29 10.5
1995 30 15.3
1996 31 12.3
1997 32 13.3
1998 33 14.9
1999 34 10.4
2000 35 9.8
2001 36 6.5
2002 37 8.8
2003 38 8.6
2004 39 8.3

So Bonds clearly hit his peak at 35. And seems to keep getting better. 8.3 at 39???? Bonds jump was at an older age than McGwire and was more drastic than McGwire's. I think that also plays a very big part in why Bonds is accused more quickly than McGwire.

When you watched McGwire play over the years you believed it was possible he might break 62 some day. People never thought that about Bonds. He has established himself as an elite hitter, but one that topped out at about 45 HRs a year. FWIW I don;t think Griffey would have ever had the accusations Bonds did if he had kept prgressing towards the record like he was.

Also a quick note on AB/HR vs. PA/HR. I don't think those numbers are as useful with Bonds and McGwire (especially Bonds). Sure they both became more patient hitters as they got older. Most players do, but the real reason the numbers level off is no one was willing to give them a pitch hit. That's why the AB/HR number is so impressive for both of them. They rarely ever got much to hit, but when they did they destroyed it.

[Buccaneer]

Between the 80s-00s MLB expanded from 26-30 teams. This in turn diluted the pitching talent in baseball. Along with this there is the whole "juiced ball theory" which I think goes with the fact that the MLB wanted to get people interested in baseball again after the strike.

These could all be factors that could contribute the the rise in his and the rest of MLBs rise in hr/ab.
That would be my response to Rick's post as well. It puts his 34- and 35-yr old years in context. By itself, I would tend to lean that he shot up with more powerful stuff but given the context, I don't know.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

He did it. His fellow bash brothers did it.

People have accused Giambi of taking steroids. He denied it, but later admitted it.

People have accused Bonds of taking steroids. He denied it, but turns out he took them (but just didn't know he was, yeah right)

People have accused McGwire of taking steroids. He denied it, . .. . . . (starting to see a pattern here)

Frankly, I've seen enough to know that I don't believe any players or MLB about it anymore.

[sterlingice]

This is why I like Sammy Sosa. He got his home runs the old-fashioned way... He corked his bat!
That's awesome :D

SI

[BigJohn&TheLions]

He did it. His fellow bash brothers did it.

People have accused Giambi of taking steroids. He denied it, but later admitted it.

People have accused Bonds of taking steroids. He denied it, but turns out he took them (but just didn't know he was, yeah right)

People have accused McGwire of taking steroids. He denied it, . .. . . . (starting to see a pattern here)

Frankly, I've seen enough to know that I don't believe any players or MLB about it anymore.

This is why I like Sammy Sosa. He got his home runs the old-fashioned way... He corked his bat!