Clinton, Kerry: Make Election Day a Holiday

[Fritz]

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,147969,00.html


Clinton, Kerry: Make Election Day a Holiday

Thursday, February 17, 2005



WASHINGTON — Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (search), a possible White House candidate in 2008, joined 2004 nominee John Kerry and other Democrats Thursday in urging that Election Day be made a federal holiday to encourage voting.

She also pushed for legislation that would allow all ex-felons to vote.

Standing with Massachusetts Sen. Kerry (search) and other Democrats who had alleged voting irregularities in the 2004 contest, Clinton said, "Once again we had a federal election that demonstrates we have a long way to go."

"I think it's also necessary to make sure our elections meet the highest national standards," said the New York senator.

She and Kerry, both considered contenders for the 2008 nomination, were joined by Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones, D-Ohio, and Sen. Barbara Boxer (search), D-Calif., who forced a highly unusual House and Senate debate Jan. 6 on the presidential election results.

Kerry, who lost the national contest by 3.3 million votes nationwide, and 118,000 within Ohio, denied the bill was an attempt to discredit the 2004 results.

"This has nothing to do with me," said Kerry. "It is not partisan, or shouldn't be."

Clinton echoed those comments, though her senatorial re-election committee, Friends of Hillary, is pushing the bill hard.

Visitors to the group's Web site are greeted first with a full-page form asking people to endorse the Count Every Vote Act.

"My Web site has information about everything I work on. This is one of my biggest priorities and obviously I hope that people who share our goal of making sure every vote counts will support us," said Clinton.

In addition to creating a federal holiday for voting, the bill would:

— Require paper receipts for votes.

— Authorize $500 million to help states make the changes in voting systems and equipment.

— Allow ex-felons to vote. Currently an estimated 4.7 million Americans are barred from voting because of their criminal records.

— Require adoption of the changes in time for the 2006 election.

Boxer said the bill "is meant to ensure the election debacle of 2000, and the serious election irregularities of 2004, never ever happen again."

Both parties have called for changes to ensure a more accurate vote count. Republican efforts have centered on reducing voter fraud, while Democrats have called for making access to the ballot box easier and simpler.


So there seem to be two issues here:

1) make election day a federal holiday.
Who would this really "add" to the voter mix? Union members, teachers, federal workers, bankers.

IMHO, this is a ploy to get more labor votes.

2) Let former felons vote.
Who does this add to the voter mix?

In my mind, this is certainly a partisan attempt to add voters likely to vote democrat.

[Fritz]

dola

Is there anyone on the forum that gets a good feeling from Senator Clinton?

[flere-imsaho]

1. I'm sorry, you're saying it's bad to make it easier for Union workers, teachers, federal workers and bankers to vote?

2. If people have paid their debt to society, they should be allowed to vote.

3. There are other good suggestions here, such as paper receipts for electronic voting machines.

[Critch]

I'm all for it, and I don't even have a vote.

I'll take a day off for anything.

[Anthony]

i HATE Senator Clinton. she's not even that well-liked in NYC. no one gushes over her. i lean towards Democrats, but if she were ever to run for the presidency i'd vote Republican.

[Fritz]

1.) I don't want to make it harder for anyone to vote. I am supposing that a federal holiday (a bad term, since this only means federal workers have the day off) will most aid the democrats.

2.) Would you feel the say way about felons and gun ownership, liquor licenses, and a the numerous other items they have forfieted? If an embessler has done their time should they be able to work in finance, say as an investor for the elderly (to make a bit of an emotional appeal). What about a convicted pedophile who has done their time working at a daycare? I am not saying I disagree that they should be alowed to vote, but just saying "they have done their time" leaves some issues undone.

3) the receipt thing is curious. what good would they do? would someone go around and ask to see a reciept? what if you lose yours?

[Gary Gorski]

All I know is that if Hillary is for it, I'm against it.

In seriousness though this is a waste of time - people don't need the day off to vote. Did anyone here seriously not vote because they had to work that day? Some places do get the day off to vote - like auto plants around here - and the people who work for those unionized shops either vote cause they want to vote or don't vote cause they don't want to vote. Nobody votes because they got a day off. This sounds more like an attempt to discredit the 2004 result and setup a running ploy for the 08 campaign of "look what the democratic party did for the American people - now get out there and show us how grateful you are to us for getting you a day off and vote democrat"

[Warhammer]

1. I'm sorry, you're saying it's bad to make it easier for Union workers, teachers, federal workers and bankers to vote?

2. If people have paid their debt to society, they should be allowed to vote.

3. There are other good suggestions here, such as paper receipts for electronic voting machines.

1) It's not like its hard for these people to vote anyway. There is early voting in many states, plus polls are open until 7:00 PM in most states. Either vote before, or after work.

2) I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a lot of ways this could be abused by politicians. We're not talking misdemeanors, we are talking felons here.

3) What does a paper receipt do?

I think this is a political event that the dems are creating to try to delegitimize Bush's presidency yet again. Heck, the only thing that I have heard where people have been indicted regarding voting events is the two dems connected to the Milwaukee mayor that slashed all the tires of the Republican Get Out the Vote effort there.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, I'm not sure what "federal" holiday means. If private businesses (or states) do not recognize it, then it really isn't doing that much to increase the number of voters (regardless of who those voters would most likely vote for). I worked for the state, and now I work in the private sector; around election time, we have always been given extra time during the day to be allowed to vote. I don't see what difference having a holiday would make, other than to attempt to attach some significance to who sponsored a free day off every 4 years. Plus, in Florida, we have voting for two weeks prior to the actual election day. What a joke it would be to make that day a holiday, under the guise that it would allow more people to vote.

On automatically allowing ex-felons to vote....no. I believe that should be left to each state to decide. In Florida, we have a specific procedure for restoring a felon's civil rights. They should have to go through that procedure to get back the right to vote, carry a firearm, hold public office, etc. There should be no blanket exemption, and it certainly should not come from the federal government.

[flere-imsaho]

Fritz: It's just that you made it sound like it would be a bad thing to make it easier for these people to vote ("this is a ploy to get more labor votes").

As for felons, let's say that I'm not averse to it, but that I'm not necessarily against it, either. You both raise good points.

As for receipts, I'd actually rather just see a real paper trail produced. Just so that there's a way to manually check the machine should the machine itself decide to go belly-up.

[Huckleberry]

#1 is a good idea if private businesses recognize it. This would alleviate the situation at many polling places of huge lines forming between 5 p.m. and poll closing time. Not a big deal, but I don't see how it could be that bad. Then again, I'm in favor of holidays generally speaking.

#2 is a not so good idea.

[albionmoonlight]

Whether you agree with it or not, one also cannot ignore the fact that most ex-felons are black. Reasonable minds can certainly differ on the extent to which that fact should play a role in the discussion (if at all)--but I do think that it needs to be addressed as an initial matter.

And--I agree with Fritz that, regardless of your feelings on these issues as issues in themselves, the end result will be a probable increase in Democratic voters. And that is where the debate will begin and end for the politicals.

[Fritz]

AML,

when I said "Who does this add to the voter mix?," millions of black voters are who I was thinking.

--------
I think it is a fair to say that there are not too many politicians out there who want to alter any aspect of voting unless they think it favors them.

[cuervo72]

I don't believe Clinton and Kerry would suggest this if they didn't think it would add to Democratic turnout. Let's not kid ourselves, they're not doing this for altruistic reasons. That said, I'm not sure I'm against a holiday, but in general I think people can get to the polls if they really want to. Now, if this means that more Dems have the day off to do campaigning and possibly other shenanigans - mobilizing while "white collar" workers are still working (generalization, I know)...well, that's a different angle.

As far as ex-cons go...uh-uh. No way.

As an aside - aren't most public schools off on election day anyhow, especially considering that most polling places are the schools themselves?

[albionmoonlight]

AML,when I said "Who does this add to the voter mix?," millions of black voters are who I was thinking.
Ah, I see.

There is an argument among some in the law professor crowd that felon disenfranchisement has become de facto voter discrimination and needs to be eliminated on those grounds (like literacy tests that were facially neutral but used to thwart black voters after the reconstruction amendments).

I don't beleive that that argument is a winner legally, but from what I gather the issue is pretty complicated, and I have not really done more than skim some materials on it.

[cartman]

Might be a stretch, but maybe if the drug felons that were put away for 10 years for an ounce of marijuana got back their right to vote, the Libertarian party might start to get more pull.

As for the other points, I don't think it would be a bad idea at all to make it a special national holiday. Not sure if it is possible, but have it set up so that only essential personnel are allowed to work. Or if people have to work, make it a half day.

I'm all for having a paper trail for electronic voting machines. There has to be accountability and traceability somewhere. Without a paper trail, to me that would be like leaving a bunch of paper ballots on a table, and relying on the honor system. It would turn national elections into the equivalent of the MLB All Star balloting.

As for the argument that more people voting is a help only for the Democrats, I think that was disproven in this last election. It was the highest turnout in history, and it resulted in a Republican president, and Republican gains in the House and Senate.

[Fritz]

so I found this list on restoration of voter rights

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/voterights.htm

looks like plenty of former felons either get their ability to vote resotred by defualt, or by a process.

[cuervo72]

Hrmm....looks like a goodly number of them get their rights back as it is then.

[Swaggs]

I think a good question to ask is how long would you wait in line to vote?

When I lived in Morgantown, WV, I could go at 8:00 AM and wait in line behind about 4-6 people and be in and out in 15 minutes.

When I moved to Durham, NC and voted 10 days early, it took nearly an hour.

It was reported that during the 2004 elections, in some of the more populated areas of Ohio, people had to wait over 8 hours.

I think my time and patience would be pushed at two hours and I would probably leave. Just being honest. I have voted in every Fall election since I turned 18, but two hours would probably do it for me.

[Fritz]

As for the other points, I don't think it would be a bad idea at all to make it a special national holiday. Not sure if it is possible, but have it set up so that only essential personnel are allowed to work. Or if people have to work, make it a half day.


are you saying you would prohibit people from working? do you think this would be hard on hourly workers?

What about on businesses that would lose something like 1/250th of their man years?

[Fritz]

Hrmm....looks like a goodly number of them get their rights back as it is then.

Certainly, the Ohio felons should have been able to vote

[ISiddiqui]

Election Day as a holiday is a GOOD idea! I've been pushing for it for a while. And make Election Day on Wednesday so people just aren't tempted to make it a long weekend.

Ex-Felons SHOULD vote. We shouldn't disenfranchise people if they've done their time. Hell, we shouldn't disenfranchise people IN jail! Voting is a fundamental right. What reason is there to take it away? As a punishment? Frankly taking away voting rights is too high of a punishment no matter what you did. Why don't we take away their right to cruel and unusual punishment while we are at it?

It may not be for altruistic reasons, but when was anything in government solely altruistic? Doesn't make it a bad plan.

[BrianD]

I'm all for having a paper trail for electronic voting machines. There has to be accountability and traceability somewhere. Without a paper trail, to me that would be like leaving a bunch of paper ballots on a table, and relying on the honor system. It would turn national elections into the equivalent of the MLB All Star balloting.

I'm wondering when we might see some kind of biometric identification as part of the voting system. It is starting to sound like there was a fair amount of voter fraud in Milwaukee, and officials can't do anything about it since all of the votes were placed under fake names and addresses. Having a finger print to go with those fake names might discourage some fraud.

Of course having to give a finger print will probably discourage more real voters who fear they might be wanted, or who fear that this will enter them into the government spy machine.

As for the argument that more people voting is a help only for the Democrats, I think that was disproven in this last election. It was the highest turnout in history, and it resulted in a Republican president, and Republican gains in the House and Senate.

I don't think this necessarily follows. The argument is that Dems are looking to get more voters in a disproportionately high Democrat demographic. More voters in general would match your argument, but more voters in a specific demographic will help that demographic.

[Galaril]

Over here in Korea and I know in Japan as well voting day has been a national holiday and all businesses are encouraged to give employees the day off. Koreans always are surprised to realize that America , to them , the symbol(in the past) of democracy not to give citizens the day off. I remember there being very long lines for alot of people to vote this past election. I think this can be a benefit to "Americans" I don't care who it benefits in the end evrything evens out.

[digamma]

Whether you agree with it or not, one also cannot ignore the fact that most ex-felons are black. Reasonable minds can certainly differ on the extent to which that fact should play a role in the discussion (if at all)--but I do think that it needs to be addressed as an initial matter.

And--I agree with Fritz that, regardless of your feelings on these issues as issues in themselves, the end result will be a probable increase in Democratic voters. And that is where the debate will begin and end for the politicals.
I think your first sentence needs to say: one also cannot ignore the fact that ex-felons are disproportionately black. In sheer numbers, I'm pretty sure that white and other felons outnumber blacks, however the percentage of black felons greatly outweighs the 12% or so of blacks nationwide.

[cartman]

are you saying you would prohibit people from working? do you think this would be hard on hourly workers?

What about on businesses that would lose something like 1/250th of their man years?

I meant to say only essential personnel would be required to work. As for the lost time working, it happens with every holiday, and we are talking one day every two years for a federal election. If states want to also make their statewide voting days a holiday, that would be up to them.

[Ksyrup]

Election Day as a holiday is a GOOD idea! I've been pushing for it for a while. And make Election Day on Wednesday so people just aren't tempted to make it a long weekend.

Ex-Felons SHOULD vote. We shouldn't disenfranchise people if they've done their time. Hell, we shouldn't disenfranchise people IN jail! Voting is a fundamental right. What reason is there to take it away? As a punishment? Frankly taking away voting rights is too high of a punishment no matter what you did. Why don't we take away their right to cruel and unusual punishment while we are at it?

It may not be for altruistic reasons, but when was anything in government solely altruistic? Doesn't make it a bad plan.
Voting is a fundamental right reserved for law-abiding citizens. Once you fuck up, you lose your right to participate in the process, until you prove otherwise.

[Radii]

I have no doubt that the bill is being brought up b/c it will likely increase democratic voters, but I cannot see how it is a bad idea either.

A federal holiday would encourage more volunteers(which hopefully in a few places would speed up the process when there's higher turnout), would prevent the lines of people running past 8pm on election day, and yea, I do firmly believe some people don't vote because they have to work. I frown upon that thought, but I certainly believe it to be true. How many, well, I dunno.

I didn't click the additional link posted later on felons voting.

I do disagree with the comment made that it should be a state issue. If rehabbed felons get to vote in New York they should get to vote in Georgia too, that needs to be uniform across the board IMO. I also wish there was a national standard for voting machines and such as well for presidential elections, that would shut both sides up, but that's probably extremely expensive.

Holidays are good. :D

[ISiddiqui]

Voting is a fundamental right reserved for law-abiding citizens. Once you fuck up, you lose your right to participate in the process, until you prove otherwise.
No, voting is a fundamental right PERIOD! In a democracy, it is the most important right (yes, even over life, property, etc). You still live in the US, you are still affected by the law. So you are subject to the law even though you have no say over it. That's abhorrant.

And even in that case, for EX-Felons, doing your time is usually considered proof that you can participate in society.

[panerd]

I have a solution, make election day on Saturday. Any reason it has to be on a Tuesday? Wouldn't this give a lot more people a chance to vote at any time and actually probably get a lot more volunteers at the polls? Why Tuesday?

Cuervo: None of the Missouri public schools are off for election day. I would assume this to be true most places.

Fritz: I think the NEA gets a lot more credit for mobilizing voters than most non-teachers realize. I know a large majority of teachers at my school that voted for GW Bush. Just because somebody is in a union for bargaining purposes doesn't mean they toe the line and immediatelly go out and vote for who the NEA says to. I am sure there are more Democratic teachers than Republicans as it seems to fit the "profile" of a teacher more, but it isn't 100%/0% like some people seem to think.

[cuervo72]

Of course having to give a finger print will probably discourage more real voters who fear they might be wanted

Fear they might be wanted? Is this like the guy who robbed a bank and thinks the law might be onto him, or the overly paranoid guy who wasn't anywhere near the bank, but thinks the law might have pinned it on him anyway?

[cuervo72]

Cuervo: None of the Missouri public schools are off for election day. I would assume this to be true most places.

I guess that's localized then too. From what I recall (getting to be a long time ago now...) we always had election day off (southeast PA), and I know that is the case in Frederick Co., MD.

[Joe]

what if ex-felons were in jail for voting fraud? Should they get their vote back?

[Ksyrup]

No, voting is a fundamental right PERIOD! In a democracy, it is the most important right (yes, even over life, property, etc). You still live in the US, you are still affected by the law. So you are subject to the law even though you have no say over it. That's abhorrant.

And even in that case, for EX-Felons, doing your time is usually considered proof that you can participate in society.
I'll just stick with the vast majority on this one, rather than argue with you. Check out the link in Fritz's post above - a quick survey showed just 2 states where voting rights are not affectedin any manner by a felony conviction. And in most states, felons get the right to vote back automatically when they finish their sentence. Personally, I'm glad that isn't the case in Florida. But in any event, your opinion on voting rights for incarcerated felons is clearly the minority position.

[Klinglerware]

No, voting is a fundamental right PERIOD! In a democracy, it is the most important right (yes, even over life, property, etc). You still live in the US, you are still affected by the law. So you are subject to the law even though you have no say over it. That's abhorrant.

And even in that case, for EX-Felons, doing your time is usually considered proof that you can participate in society.


I have to agree here. Once you do your time, you do your time. Even for ex-sex offenders, while they will notify your neighbors, you do still have a right to live in the neighborhood you chose to live in. Voting rights ought to be restored accordingly--especially since quite a few of these ex-felons are taxpayers.

By the way, weekend voting isn't such a bad idea, many countries do it that way already.

[Fritz]

Even for ex-sex offenders, while they will notify your neighbors, you do still have a right to live in the neighborhood you chose to live in.

sort of a side track:

My apartment complex will not lease to people convicted of violent crimes.

[ISiddiqui]

But in any event, your opinion on voting rights for incarcerated felons is clearly the minority position.
So? Civil Rights for blacks was once a minority position to. Doesn't make it wrong.

[ISiddiqui]

sort of a side track:

My apartment complex will not lease to people convicted of violent crimes.
They are a private business, so no problems.

[Warhammer]

[QUOTE=ISiddiqui]Ex-Felons SHOULD vote. We shouldn't disenfranchise people if they've done their time. Hell, we shouldn't disenfranchise people IN jail! Voting is a fundamental right. What reason is there to take it away? As a punishment? Frankly taking away voting rights is too high of a punishment no matter what you did. Why don't we take away their right to cruel and unusual punishment while we are at it?
[QUOTE]

I disagree with this. I can just see it now, a sitting president making it a law that all prison personnel need to vote, and then saying that he will hand out pardons. No way.

[ISiddiqui]

I disagree with this. I can just see it now, a sitting president making it a law that all prison personnel need to vote, and then saying that he will hand out pardons. No way.
Yeah, because that will EVER happen... come on... handing out pardons to prisoners for votes wouldn't cause you to lose EVERYONE elses vote, wouldn't it? You think the 'tough on crime' people is going to just say ok and let it go?

Get real, man.

[Warhammer]

Yeah, because that will EVER happen... come on... handing out pardons to prisoners for votes wouldn't cause you to lose EVERYONE elses vote, wouldn't it? You think the 'tough on crime' people is going to just say ok and let it go?

Get real, man.

Sorry, I've seen too much stuff I said would never happen that has.

Also, someone that decided to get tough on crime could kiss the prison vote good bye. If you commit a crime, there is a punishment. If voting is that big of a deal to you, don't commit a crime.

[Ksyrup]

So? Civil Rights for blacks was once a minority position to. Doesn't make it wrong.
You can make that comparison. I won't.

[Warhammer]

One other tidbit, I think it is a federal law that requires all employers to give employees up to two hours off on election days.

[BrianD]

Fear they might be wanted? Is this like the guy who robbed a bank and thinks the law might be onto him, or the overly paranoid guy who wasn't anywhere near the bank, but thinks the law might have pinned it on him anyway?

Yes.

[revrew]

I think a good question to ask is how long would you wait in line to vote?

When I lived in Morgantown, WV, I could go at 8:00 AM and wait in line behind about 4-6 people and be in and out in 15 minutes.

When I moved to Durham, NC and voted 10 days early, it took nearly an hour.

It was reported that during the 2004 elections, in some of the more populated areas of Ohio, people had to wait over 8 hours.

I think my time and patience would be pushed at two hours and I would probably leave. Just being honest. I have voted in every Fall election since I turned 18, but two hours would probably do it for me.

I don't think any federal changes are necessary to fix this problem. This is more a matter of complete idiots in charge of the voting process at the state level. I mean, what the heck? You have 3 voting booths to serve 10,000 people or what? Of COURSE people will be waiting in line! States like Ohio should be publicly ridiculed for this mess (like Florida was after the 2000 elections) until they get their head out of their bum. Here in Iowa, they had the same problem in West Des Moines, the fastest growing area of the state. They simply had too few booths for the number of people, and the lines were 1-2 hours long. Don't we pay our Attorney General to DO something? Isn't he/she supposed to be intelligent enough to figure that you need so many polling booths/places for a certain population? In my town, voting took less than 5 minutes. There's no excuse for 8 hour lines, no excuse for 1 hour lines, and no federal holiday or other safeguard necessary. We didn't have a problem with voting lines when we voted in Minneapolis. We didn't have a problem when we voted in the Chicago suburbs. What's Cincinnati's problem?

This is just another example of federal lawmakers trying to fix everything from Washington instead of honoring the balance of power.

(Wow. That whole post was harsh. But, you know, I feel better now. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest :D )

[Fritz]

One other tidbit, I think it is a federal law that requires all employers to give employees up to two hours off on election days.


I am reasonably sure I have never been given 2 hrs off, and I have always worked in the public sector.

[BrianD]

One other tidbit, I think it is a federal law that requires all employers to give employees up to two hours off on election days.

Actually, it is four hours, but they are unpaid.

I really want to come down on the side of not letting ex-felons vote, but that is a tough position when they pay taxes. One of the foundations of this country was "no taxation without representation". It seems like anyone that gets taxed should have a say in that representation. I'm not sure what that says about people with income low enough to not be taxed.

[ISiddiqui]

Sorry, I've seen too much stuff I said would never happen that has.

Also, someone that decided to get tough on crime could kiss the prison vote good bye. If you commit a crime, there is a punishment. If voting is that big of a deal to you, don't commit a crime.
In how many states is the prision vote that big to offset the tough on crime vote? Come on!

Yeah, there is a punishment for committing a crime. Voting shouldn't be a part of it. It is FAR too important to be alienated from you, especially if we want to think we live in a representative democracy.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have just skimmed some of the posts here, but are people actually arguing that making it easier for people to vote (making election day a federal holiday) is a bad thing?

That's just f*cking ridiculous. Are people really arguing against this??? Fer fooks sake, people.

In most countries (as noted above) election day is already a holiday or is on a weekend to facilitate a stronger voter turnout.

Election day should be a federal holiday and should be observed by most private businesses. Yes, there are opportunities to vote, but what if you have to work two jobs? Or have a full-time job and are also a single parent? Voting could become a might bit trickier than.

Also, last November everyone thought that a larger voter turnout would help the Democrats. Didn't really work out all that well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ah yes, a holiday for voting ... which will immediately lead to "Election Day Savings", "Vote for Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Porsche/Jaguar 24 Hour Blowout Clearance with 0% Financing" and other oh-so-holidayeque citings. An unneccessary & incredibly naive suggestion ... which, considering the source, isn't exactly a shocker.

And felons voting? An idea designed strictly with the benefits to one particular party in mind. Tell ya what though -- I'll agree to support restoration of felons rights if we can also reinstitute literacy testing AND raise the voting age to 21 (or maybe 25-30).

[Fritz]

IElection day should be a federal holiday and should be observed by most private businesses. Yes, there are opportunities to vote, but what if you have to work two jobs? Or have a full-time job and are also a single parent?

Just because its a holiday doesn't mean its a PAID holiday. Many places where workers are on wage, the don't get paid if they don't.

But, if the holiday thing has wings then perhaps we should just get rid of another holiday. The obvious one to me is Columbus Day, but since voting is in Novemeber a fair case could be made for Veteran's day.

[Desnudo]

You can mail in an absentee ballot easily enough. If they want to add another holiday, then remove one of the current ones first.

[ISiddiqui]

But, if the holiday thing has wings then perhaps we should just get rid of another holiday. The obvious one to me is Columbus Day, but since voting is in Novemeber a fair case could be made for Veteran's day.
Wait, wait, wait... you are objecting to having another Holiday?! Who are you people?

[BrianD]

And felons voting? An idea designed strictly with the benefits to one particular party in mind. Tell ya what though -- I'll agree to support restoration of felons rights if we can also reinstitute literacy testing AND raise the voting age to 21 (or maybe 25-30).

What is the current voting rate of people under 21, or under 25? I think we nearly have a de-facto voting age of 25 due to apathy of those under 25.

[Warhammer]

Ah yes, a holiday for voting ... which will immediately lead to "Election Day Savings", "Vote for Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Porsche/Jaguar 24 Hour Blowout Clearance with 0% Financing" and other oh-so-holidayeque citings. An unneccessary & incredibly naive suggestion ... which, considering the source, isn't exactly a shocker.

And felons voting? An idea designed strictly with the benefits to one particular party in mind. Tell ya what though -- I'll agree to support restoration of felons rights if we can also reinstitute literacy testing AND raise the voting age to 21 (or maybe 25-30).

Or better yet, only people with tangible property can vote. I can't tell you how hacked off I get about people getting elected locally who then hike up property taxes. The people that are putting these guys in rent, so they're not paying the tax! Sure it's buried in their rent each month, but they don't look at it that way because they are sticking it to the rich! Even though most home owners aren't rich.

[Fritz]

Wait, wait, wait... you are objecting to having another Holiday?! Who are you people?

Oh, another free day off from work would be great for me, but not so good for wage earners. I can also see where companies that pay people for holiday time might have a small objection to giving away an extra day.


I will say that if voting day falls during the same week as my rotation friday (I get every other friday off) then I am taking 3 days of leave and taking a trip (just like I usually do for any other 3 day weeks).

what if we just open the poll from 6 until 8 pm and allow absentee ballots for those that know they can't make that....

[Klinglerware]

Ah yes, a holiday for voting ... which will immediately lead to "Election Day Savings", "Vote for Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Porsche/Jaguar 24 Hour Blowout Clearance with 0% Financing" and other oh-so-holidayeque citings. An unneccessary & incredibly naive suggestion ... which, considering the source, isn't exactly a shocker.

And felons voting? An idea designed strictly with the benefits to one particular party in mind. Tell ya what though -- I'll agree to support restoration of felons rights if we can also reinstitute literacy testing AND raise the voting age to 21 (or maybe 25-30).

Well, if we're gonna start putting in restrictions, I say restrict it to people who can pass the citizenship test (the thing they make immigrants take) and people who've scored better than 1 standard deviation on the SAT (a 1200).

Toungue firmly in cheek. Restricting voting is ridiculous...

[Ksyrup]

Another holiday for me...whoopee! That just adds another day I'll be at work while my kids are at home (either the holiday itself or an upcoming weekend). For some people, a day off doesn't alleviate the amount of work to do.

Ironically, I will be off on Monday, though, but it was planned and if I wasn't going out of town, I'd be in the office.

[Desnudo]

Well, if we're gonna start putting in restrictions, I say restrict it to people who can pass the citizenship test (the thing they make immigrants take) and people who've scored better than 1 standard deviation on the SAT (a 1200).

Toungue firmly in cheek. Restricting voting is ridiculous...

I would restrict voting to only people who vote how I see fit. They would be selected based on criteria that I would put together. Everyone else would be deported to the third world country of their choice.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Or better yet, only people with tangible property can vote. I can't tell you how hacked off I get about people getting elected locally who then hike up property taxes. The people that are putting these guys in rent, so they're not paying the tax! Sure it's buried in their rent each month, but they don't look at it that way because they are sticking it to the rich! Even though most home owners aren't rich.
Or better yet, how about certain people's votes, say, oh, I don't know, people who weren't born in this country and just became citizens, only count 3/5 of people who were born here!! Or maybe just limit it to their women folk! YEAH!!! That'd be awesome!!!!

:rolleyes:

What is wrong with you people?

Sure, replace Columbus day. Whatever, I don't care. And, yes, just because people have election day off as a paid holiday doesn't necessarily mean that they'll go out and vote. Maybe they'll take a long weekend somewhere, maybe they'll go out and buy a car or some electronics. But if it allows more people to vote, where's the bad? Where's the wrong?

The UAW made election day a holiday for their members and their voting numbers went through the roof. Granted, they were very much encouraged to go vote, but it happened.

[cuervo72]

Yes.

Voting rights for fugitives??

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, if we're gonna start putting in restrictions, I say restrict it to people who can pass the citizenship test (the thing they make immigrants take) ...

Coincidentally, that was roughly the path I started to take in that post, but decided to stick with the literacy option since it had already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

I've advocated serious tightening of the standards for voting, as always the devil is in the details. But I really like Desnudo's plan more than anything else.

[Warhammer]

Or better yet, how about certain people's votes, say, oh, I don't know, people who weren't born in this country and just became citizens, only count 3/5 of people who were born here!! Or maybe just limit it to their women folk! YEAH!!! That'd be awesome!!!!

:rolleyes:


I can justify property. Many laws that are passed by our elected officials only affect those that own property. Most of the taxes used for local law enforcement and education come from local property taxes. Why should I get stuck with a higher property taxes because the guy living in the apartment complex wants a new library even though the old one is perfectly fine. Or, he wants a new stadium for a sports team, but he's not going to be footing the bill. They'll cover the expense by pulling it from education, then when people complain about education spending getting cut (don't take money from our kids!) they increase property taxes.

It happens all the time here. Each time taxes go up, my property value goes down. :mad:

[cartman]

For the life of me, I can't understand any justifications for not making voting easier and more accessible, and more accountable in this country, when we've spent north of $400 billion the past three years to bring the right to vote to Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Desnudo]

For the life of me, I can't understand any justifications for not making voting easier and more accessible, and more accountable in this country, when we've spent north of $400 billion the past three years to bring the right to vote to Iraq and Afghanistan.

So someone filling out a ballot while sitting on their fat duff eating a Ho Ho and watching Oprah isn't easy enough?

[Desnudo]

Coincidentally, that was roughly the path I started to take in that post, but decided to stick with the literacy option since it had already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

I've advocated serious tightening of the standards for voting, as always the devil is in the details. But I really like Desnudo's plan more than anything else.

Great! Which country would you like to be deported to? I kid, I kid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Droll Desnudo, very droll ;)

[Honolulu_Blue]

I can justify property. Many laws that are passed by our elected officials only affect those that own property. Most of the taxes used for local law enforcement and education come from local property taxes. Why should I get stuck with a higher property taxes because the guy living in the apartment complex wants a new library even though the old one is perfectly fine. Or, he wants a new stadium for a sports team, but he's not going to be footing the bill. They'll cover the expense by pulling it from education, then when people complain about education spending getting cut (don't take money from our kids!) they increase property taxes.

It happens all the time here. Each time taxes go up, my property value goes down. :mad:
So we're going to limit participation in the government to the landed gentry? How very dark ages of you...

[cuervo72]

So we're going to limit participation in the government to the landed gentry? How very dark ages of you...

Well he *is* a warhammer...

[Ryan S]

In most countries (as noted above) election day is already a holiday or is on a weekend to facilitate a stronger voter turnout.
No holiday and no weekend election in the UK. I would be opposed to any move to create a holiday because I hate public holidays. I would rather have an extra few days added to my holiday entitlement so I don't have to take the same holidays as everyone else in the country.

The simplest way to stop queues is to increase the number of places where people can vote. It's not rocket science.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

We should do like we did in Iraq: Elections on the weekend.

[Barkeep49]

I can justify property. Many laws that are passed by our elected officials only affect those that own property. Most of the taxes used for local law enforcement and education come from local property taxes. Why should I get stuck with a higher property taxes because the guy living in the apartment complex wants a new library even though the old one is perfectly fine. Or, he wants a new stadium for a sports team, but he's not going to be footing the bill. They'll cover the expense by pulling it from education, then when people complain about education spending getting cut (don't take money from our kids!) they increase property taxes.

It happens all the time here. Each time taxes go up, my property value goes down. :mad:

How about if the people who own the most expensive property get to have their vote counted more. After all they are paying the most taxes so shouldn't they have a bigger say?

[BrianD]

The simplest way to stop queues is to increase the number of places where people can vote. It's not rocket science.

I think the big question (for which I have no answer) is which is more expensive to the states? Is the lost taxes for the wages lost to a holiday more expensive than the cost of extra polling locations and polling workers? That should help figure out which is the more cost effective way to increase voters...taking into account, of course, the estimated effectiveness of the chosen plan.

[Fritz]

I think the big question (for which I have no answer) is which is more expensive to the states? Is the lost taxes for the wages lost to a holiday more expensive than the cost of extra polling locations and polling workers? That should help figure out which is the more cost effective way to increase voters...taking into account, of course, the estimated effectiveness of the chosen plan.


cost to the states? What about costs to the businesses?

[Honolulu_Blue]

How about if the people who own the most expensive property get to have their vote counted more. After all they are paying the most taxes so shouldn't they have a bigger say?
Exactly. Or what about income tax? Should people who make more money and therefore pay more in income tax have a bigger say?

[BrianD]

cost to the states? What about costs to the businesses?

I'm not sure how much the government cares about the costs to businesses, aside from the related taxes.

[Arles]

Instead of taxing businesses, working parents and wage-based workers by giving them a "day off" to vote, why not just fix the problem and add more polling places? I would much rather pay 100-200 more nice retired people the small amount to work in schools or churches and decrease the person-to-polling place ratio than force working parents to pay an extra full day of day care and wage-based workers to have another unpaid holliday.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

How about if the people who own the most expensive property get to have their vote counted more. After all they are paying the most taxes so shouldn't they have a bigger say?

Yeah. And then we could eliminate women voting, and impose poll taxes that would pretty much bar anyone who makes less than $50k from voting and have mobs at polling stations to beat down minorities who try to vote...

[miked]

I don't understand the big deal about making it a holiday. Regardless of who you vote for, you are more likely to vote if you don't have to stand in line for 4 hours. We are spending an enormous amount of $$ to bring imperfect systems to other countries, why don't we sit down and fix ours. Having the day off means single mom's don't have to chose between going to work and getting paid, taking care of their kids and sitting in line to vote for 4 hours.

Just don't know what the big deal is. When it comes to re-drawing maps to earn your party more votes, these guys can't get enough of it...as shady as it is. Here is something that benefits all people.

[Julio Riddols]

I say do away with political parties and make people run on their own damn platform.. I don't see how we have anything resembling a democracy when the country is full of sheep who either follow one sheep herder or the other. I personally haven't seen or heard of a candidate that I like, ever. McCain came the closest-

The whole argument that this will bring more democratic voters into the mix, so its only something democrats would do for votes shouldn't even be argued. There should be a right for everyone to vote, excluding maybe only a few who have exhibited clear mental incompetence or inability to function as a member of society.. And besides that, why should people just vote Democrat or Republican? Why should we vote for any particular platform? Isn't it clear that that is the true reason this country is divided? Two major parties in power, two factions of people fighting about the same bullshit over and over.

I'm waiting til people get to have opinions of their own and still be voted into power.

Sometimes I wish the real world would be more real.

Just my 2 cent vent.

[miked]

It seems we have a lot of holidays that could be done away with if people need an excuse to go to work. Labor day, Presidents day, Columbus day, whatever.

[Kodos]

I think anything that allows more people to vote is good.

Vote Hillary in '08!

[ISiddiqui]

How about if the people who own the most expensive property get to have their vote counted more. After all they are paying the most taxes so shouldn't they have a bigger say?
Scary thing is that I'm sure some people in this country would say that's a great idea.

[Desnudo]

I think anything that allows more people to vote is good.

Vote Hillary in '08!

Is she going to be old enough? I thought she was only like 18.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Scary thing is that I'm sure some people in this country would say that's a great idea.

If you'll pardon the pun ... I believe you can take that to the bank.

[oliegirl]

[QUOTE]Cuervo: None of the Missouri public schools are off for election day. I would assume this to be true most places

I know all of our county schools are out on Election Day because most of the school are polling places. I don't know about the rest of the state, but I know throughout Atlanta and the metro area, the schools = polling places is consistent.

In GA, by law, your employer has to give you 2 hours to vote, or at least they did last last time I worked on an election day. Why don't other states adopt this rather than making it a "holiday".

I think there should be a test prior to voting. You go to the computerized voting machine, "login", and up comes a very simple 10 question test. Multiple choice questions like "Who was the first President" and "How many ammendments are in the Bill of Rights?" Stuff that everyone should know. You miss a question - machine logs you out and you don't get to vote. Simple and doesn't discriminate on anything except intelligence.

[Axxon]

Is she going to be old enough? I thought she was only like 18.

Hillary is only 18? Weird, but I guess she looks old for her age.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Simple and doesn't discriminate on anything except intelligence.

Which would be the very last thing on earth any number of politicians/would-be politicans want to have happen.

[Axxon]

Which would be the very last thing on earth any number of politicians/would-be politicans want to have happen.

Especially Republicans. They're the one selling the myth that the intelligencia are Democrats. Right?

Personally, if this thread is any indication I don't see where anyone deserves the right to vote. This is a sad, sad thread but it's illustrative of the depth people will go for personal selfishness.

[Fritz]

Simple and doesn't discriminate on anything except intelligence.

why exactly is it important for a voter to know who the first president was?

in any case, that does not test intelligence, just knowledge. In the case of a multiple choice test, it could also test random luck.

If I were to support a test prior to an election, and I doubt I would ever do so, it would be on knowledge of the candidates positions. then again, there are other good reasons to vote for a candidate than their positions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Especially Republicans. They're the one selling the myth that the intelligencia are Democrats. Right?

Actually, I believe that's understood to be the "lack of commonintelligencia".
:D

[oliegirl]

why exactly is it important for a voter to know who the first president was?

Beacuse in my opinion, people who don't know such simple things about our history shouldn't be voting. In my opinion, these people don't care about this country, the issues facing it or the people who are running for office. In my opinion, these are people who don't watch the news, read the paper, and only look at the internet for entertainment purposes. And as a result, it is my opinion that if they can't answer simple and easy questions about our history, they wouldn't be able to distinguish between the candidates other than to say "Oh he is cute" or "That was the guy I saw on Mtv...he is cool". Neither of which, in my opinion, are good reasons to vote for a candidate.

[Axxon]

Actually, I believe that's understood to be the "lack of commonintelligencia".
:D

Hey, don't blame me, blame your party. They said it. ;)

Personally I can't understand the appeal to being considered the party of the stupid. I mean, they need one and all but who'd want to do it? One of the sad things about stupid people is they tend to change beliefs with the next, newest, charismatic demagogue. It'd be a nightmare to create the party platform every 48 hours. :D

[Fritz]

Beacuse in my opinion, people who don't know such simple things about our history shouldn't be voting. In my opinion, these people don't care about this country, the issues facing it or the people who are running for office. In my opinion, these are people who don't watch the news, read the paper, and only look at the internet for entertainment purposes. And as a result, it is my opinion that if they can't answer simple and easy questions about our history, they wouldn't be able to distinguish between the candidates other than to say "Oh he is cute" or "That was the guy I saw on Mtv...he is cool". Neither of which, in my opinion, are good reasons to vote for a candidate.

you know, there are plenty of people who have a pretty good idea why they want to vote for someone and don't have a clue about history.

[oliegirl]

you know, there are plenty of people who have a pretty good idea why they want to vote for someone and don't have a clue about history.

Not in my experience.

[Axxon]

you know, there are plenty of people who have a pretty good idea why they want to vote for someone and don't have a clue about history.

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

[Kodos]

I think there should be a test prior to voting. You go to the computerized voting machine, "login", and up comes a very simple 10 question test. Multiple choice questions like "Who was the first President" and "How many ammendments are in the Bill of Rights?" Stuff that everyone should know. You miss a question - machine logs you out and you don't get to vote. Simple and doesn't discriminate on anything except intelligence.

Would misspelling "amendments" log you out?

[Fritz]

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

someone better tell those dropouts not to invade russia

[Axxon]

Would misspelling "amendments" log you out?

No, this is a special case. You could continue as long as you were able to "ammend" your post. ;)

[Fritz]

Would misspelling "amendments" log you out?

Kodos = Scott Petterson
oligirl = Lacy Petterson

[cuervo72]

someone better tell those dropouts not to invade russia

I thought they invaded us, and Patrick Swayze fought them off?

[Ryche]

A little input here from someone who works in elections.

More polling places is not a good idea. Not because of money, but there is already a lack of election judges as it is. If you start increasing the pool much beyond what it is now, you'll start running into a lot more voting problems.

Practically speaking, I think elections should be held on Saturday. That would be much more convenient for 90% of the population. Unfortunately, I'm in the other 10% as I worked, oh, 24 hours on election day, so I don't want that time to be on a Saturday.

Minnesota has a statute requiring time off to vote, although it is a bit vague about exactly how much time a person is to get and whether it's paid.

Most states restore the rights of felons to vote after they have served all of their sentence, including probation. I'm inclined to think that once the jail sentence is served, the right to vote should be reserved.

Paper ballots are a must to keep a verifiable trail.

500 million more to the states? I'm all for that, we could definitely put that money to good use. Most states already have a good amount of money already from the Help Americans Vote Act.

And require that the changes be in place by 2006? Sorry, if the change hasn't already been mandated, there simply isn't time at this point. We already have plenty of new registration systems, voting equipment, etc that needs to be ready for 2006. Sorry, just not possible.

[Axxon]

someone better tell those dropouts not to invade russia

EVERYONE know of the greatest of classic blunders, "never get involved in a land war in Asia." Duh.

Plus, since when has dropping out of school necessarily signaled and ending of education?

[Klinglerware]

And as a result, it is my opinion that if they can't answer simple and easy questions about our history, they wouldn't be able to distinguish between the candidates other than to say "Oh he is cute" or "That was the guy I saw on Mtv...he is cool". Neither of which, in my opinion, are good reasons to vote for a candidate.

I don't think that knowing historical trivia has much to do with knowing how to distinguish between the candidates. As for the MTV quote--I don't think that matters too much, since people who don't make the effort to build even a cursory impression of the candidates probably won't make the effort to vote, either...

[Kodos]

Kodos = John Wayne Bobbit
oligirl = Lorena Bobbit

:eek:

[Fritz]

Plus, since when has dropping out of school necessarily signaled and ending of education?

"someone better tell those people who do not know about russian history and have no inclination to learn it that they better not invade russia" was too wordy

[Axxon]

"someone better tell those people who do not know about russian history and have no inclination to learn it that they better not invade russia" was too wordy

point

[Fritz]

Kodos = Micheal Jackson
oligirl = random 12 year old boy

:redface:
.

[Kodos]

Kodos = Michael Jackson
Fritz = Lisa Marie Presley


:)

[moore4807]

Posting a question - how many posters here realize that the USA is a REPUBLIC form of government - NOT a democracy? (check your pledge of allegiance - and please dont get hung up on the Under God part....) The fact that Bush, Clinton, etc. continue to call this the greatest democracy in the world just proves that they are unfit for office. a true democracy means everybody votes about everything - that doesnt happen here. Its a great country, warts and all - its just not a democracy!

I LIKE the idea of tying property to voting - its how it started anyway (never mind the color issue - you had to own a stake in the land to have a say in it...)

[Kodos]

I think tying it to property ownership is the stupidest idea in the history of stupid ideas.

[BrianD]

Posting a question - how many posters here realize that the USA is a REPUBLIC form of government - NOT a democracy? (check your pledge of allegiance - and please dont get hung up on the Under God part....) The fact that Bush, Clinton, etc. continue to call this the greatest democracy in the world just proves that they are unfit for office. a true democracy means everybody votes about everything - that doesnt happen here. Its a great country, warts and all - its just not a democracy!


It amazes me how often someone tries to make this argument when it makes no real difference. Whether people call it a republic or a democracy, everyone knows what we are talking about. Check any dictionary and you will read that a democracy is a government by the people exercised directly or through elected representatives.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=democracy
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=democracy&x=0&y=0
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

Trying to claim superiority by pushing the republic vs. democracy debate is really rather silly.

[Klinglerware]

Trying to claim superiority by pushing the republic vs. democracy debate is really rather silly.

Yes and no. I agree with you that the distinction doesn't matter too much to this thread. But there are real differences between a democracy and a republic. For example, a democracy is government by majority will. A republic is not such a creature--government by rule of law seems to be a more salient feature. Voting rights may or may not be one of those laws. That is why Rome before the founding of the empire can still be considered a republic. That is also what is going on with American voting laws and how changeable they were throughout our history...

[Ksyrup]

I think what he's getting at is that the distinction only really matters in college classrooms, that the terms are largely interchangeable in everyday conversation, and that the use of one or the other to describe our form of government does not suggest that someone is stupid or unfit to hold office.

[Klinglerware]

Fair enough...

[BrianD]

I think what he's getting at is that the distinction only really matters in college classrooms, that the terms are largely interchangeable in everyday conversation, and that the use of one or the other to describe our form of government does not suggest that someone is stupid or unfit to hold office.

Exactly, thank you.

I have ended up in so many debates like this recently, and they always seem to end with someone saying that using the word democracy invalidates a whole argument. I guess that has become a peeve of mine.

[Klinglerware]

Though sometimes the distinction does matter. For example, when the U.S. pushes the idea of "democracy" abroad when it is really pushing "rule of law, with protections for those not in the majority". In those cases, the distinction can be debated legitimately...

[oliegirl]

Would misspelling "amendments" log you out?

It should...I'll have to make sure I don't include spelling questions when I get this test put into place! :)

[Tigercat]

Are people that scared of fellons? If we fear something or someone, we give them power. I say screw it, let EVERYONE who is still an adult American citizen vote and give them the ability to vote. (A holiday or weekend vote if necessary)

If the system is right, the best system will come out. If the system is already flawed, the results will be flawed. But restrictions on who can participate is not the best way to have a just system. If we believe in our system, including our voting system, is right it is right for all Americans to be able to participate in. Don't fear political participation.

[judicial clerk]

someone better tell those dropouts not to invade russia

EVERYONE know of the greatest of classic blunders, "never get involved in a land war in Asia." Duh.

only slightly less well known, "never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"

Also, I think Issquidi makes a valid point about allowing criminals to vote, but I disagree. I think it is OK for society to decide that criminals forfeit certain rights when they commit crimes, including the right to vote. All of our rights are limited to reasonable extents. Our rights to free speach, to bear arms, to property,to liberty, to freedom, to privacy are all limited. It is reasonable to limit a person's right to vote and make rules in our society when the person refuses to live by the valid rules society has already made.

I think of it as judging them by the content of their character.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Fritz = Michael Jackson
Kodos = Webster

:D

[Desnudo]

Are people that scared of fellons? If we fear something or someone, we give them power. I say screw it, let EVERYONE who is still an adult American citizen vote and give them the ability to vote. (A holiday or weekend vote if necessary)

If the system is right, the best system will come out. If the system is already flawed, the results will be flawed. But restrictions on who can participate is not the best way to have a just system. If we believe in our system, including our voting system, is right it is right for all Americans to be able to participate in. Don't fear political participation.

Instead of giving them the right to vote, why don't we send them to Australia? It worked well enough for the English. Note the remembering of history in that sentence.

[Dutch]

I have just skimmed some of the posts here, but...Are people really arguing against this???
They are questioning if this is a compassionate plea by the Dems or vote buying. That's all.

Personally, I appreciated the massive "Get out and vote because Republicans are too lazy to match our resolve" campaign the Dems ran in 2004. It ensure an easier victory. Never kick somebody in the nuts and say you are better in the same breath. You'll always eat your words later. :D