Any NBA trade Rumors?

[jbmagic]

Any NBA trade Rumors?

Deadline is coming up.

[Ksyrup]

I'll trade you one boring NBA season for an NHL season that never was.

[MrBug708]

Divac, Butler, and George for Carlos Boozer

[Neon_Chaos]

Redd to the Cavs.

[Arles]

Divac, Butler, and George for Carlos Boozer
Utah GM just called that deal "ludicrous".

[JeeberD]

MoTay to Portland for Derek Anderson. Don't know why the Rox would mess with their chemistry right now considering how hot they've been, though...

[heybrad]

Utah GM just called that deal "ludicrous".
While I dont think Bugs trade is going to go through, the Jazz GM also said earlier this year that they werent going to trade Carlos Arroyo. A couple of days later he was a Piston.

Its pretty standard practice to deny any/all rumors unless you're completely burning a bridge with a player.

[stevew]

Redd to the Cavs.


Not likely to happen, unless the Bucks are really desperate. The cavs dont have a whole ton to trade, unless they are planning on shipping out Drew Gooden.

[SunDancer]

This just in....
Ron Artest will be traded to the WWE for a wrestler to be named later.

[MrBug708]

While I dont think Bugs trade is going to go through, the Jazz GM also said earlier this year that they werent going to trade Carlos Arroyo. A couple of days later he was a Piston.

Its pretty standard practice to deny any/all rumors unless you're completely burning a bridge with a player.

Caron Butler didnt play tonight, but he's supposedly sick...

[jbmagic]

Caron Butler didnt play tonight, but he's supposedly sick...


i didnt see Deveon George and Divac in tonight game on tv.

Usually there both there on the bench.

seems like this trade might happen.

[bbor]

Samuel Dalembert for Donyell Marshall.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

A Knick will be traded. Just a hunch that Zeke feels the need to make a move. I just hope it's not Sweetney that's gone...

[Franklinnoble]

At this point, the Kings need to trade Chris Webber. But he's nearly impossible to deal, so they'll probably dump Peja Stojakovic.

Either way, the team is due for an overhaul. In three years, they've slipped from "championship contender" to "in the playoff hunt" and they're not going to win a title with the guys they have now. Best case scenario is to find some sucker to take Webber while he's healthy. It'll never happen - but I wish it would.

I really wouldn't mind seeing Stojakavic go at this point. While he still has the potential to be one of the best shooters in the league, he's done nothing to improve his defense or ball handling over the years - he's not getting any better, and he's a one-dimensional threat right now. His salary is very cap-friendly, so he'd be real easy to trade.

Oh, and, dear God, can we please stop calling Geoff Petrie the most brilliant GM in the world now? Everyone in Sacramento thinks he can do no wrong. While I like the Mobley-Christie trade (because, let's face it, Doug Christie was breaking down, and the whipped husband act was getting old), what the hell did he do for us in the offseason? Sure, he let Vlade go (I would have, too), but he signs Greg Ostertag? Are you kidding me? How does that stiff fit in on this team? How many minutes has he played in a Kings uniform, like, four?

Petrie has his work cut out for him. Peja is a malcontent, and needs to go. Webber is an inconsistent, selfish blowhard who likes to call himself a leader and act like a little bitch. He needs to go. The team can build around guys like Bibby and Brad Miller. But they're not a playoff team with this lot, and they never will be.

/* End Rant

[bosshogg23]

Steven A. Smith reported on 610 WIP in Philly that Jim O'brien wants to trade Glenn Robinson & Samuel Dalembert for Antoine Walker of Atlanta. Atlanta is for the trade but the 76er's GM Billy King is against it right now.

[jbmagic]

More NBA trade Rumors

http://www.hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

[Arles]

I read that Webber has like 3 years and $42 million left on his deal - making him a perfect fit for the Knicks. :p

[stevew]

actually Webber has this on his contract after this year

$19,125,000/$20,718,750/$22,312,500

Granted, he can always use that "Opt Out" on the 20,718,750 year. But theres not a chance of that happening.

[rkmsuf]

If you are the Knicks, what the heck. You are over the cap until 2010 anyway.

[Franklinnoble]

actually Webber has this on his contract after this year

$19,125,000/$20,718,750/$22,312,500

Granted, he can always use that "Opt Out" on the 20,718,750 year. But theres not a chance of that happening.

That contract was highway robbery.

The Kings had finally gotten good for the first time, well, ever, during his contract year. Webber cries about how Sacramento is a cow town (fact), and that that he wants to play elsewhere.

He might have gotten good money someplace else, but there's no way he gets the max deal like he did from the Kings. And the Maloofs re-signed him, thinking that he's vital to the continued success of the franchise. It was a move made of fear, by a team that had no idea how to handle success. And now they're paying for it.

I have hoped all season, as Webber has finally been healthy for the first time in nearly three years, that the Knicks would trade for him. But it doesn't look like that will happen. And that's a shame. It would be nice for the Maloofs to see how good this team can be without being married to one aging player who really isn't the superstar that he's paid to be.

[stevew]

Boozer sat out tonight
Caron Butler sat out yesterday
If Butler isnt playing tonight, something is up. Otherwise Jack Haley got pwned.

[jbmagic]

Boozer sat out tonight
Caron Butler sat out yesterday
If Butler isnt playing tonight, something is up. Otherwise Jack Haley got pwned.


i agree

i didnt see Divac on the bench watching like he usually does too and Butler again didnt play tonight

[MikeVic]

More NBA trade Rumors

http://www.hoopshype.com/rumors.htm


After the first rumour, I stopped reading... why would the Bucks send Van Horn and Redd for Shareef and someone else? That looks like a horrible deal for the Bucks.

[stevew]

After the first rumour, I stopped reading... why would the Bucks send Van Horn and Redd for Shareef and someone else? That looks like a horrible deal for the Bucks.


Contract dump. Thats how the NBA works. You are losing Redd anyways, you get rid of Van Horn's 17 million committed next year. Add players with the cap savings.

[Logan]

After the first rumour, I stopped reading... why would the Bucks send Van Horn and Redd for Shareef and someone else? That looks like a horrible deal for the Bucks.

Without looking at the details, I'd assume that would net the Bucks a ton of cap room for the summer.

[MikeVic]

That sucks... I really like Redd, and I want to see an athlete stay with their team forever. Easier to support them when they stay with a team for a long time... at least for me.

[stevew]

That sucks... I really like Redd, and I want to see an athlete stay with their team forever. Easier to support them when they stay with a team for a long time... at least for me.


He could always resign in the summer if he wants the highest possible payout. To me, at least, hes gonna want max dollars and isnt worth it. Hes a good player, but whomever offers out that 70-90 million will just be buying a slightly younger version of Allan Houston.

[stevew]

Chris Webber is traded to 76ers


Really? Damn. Theres one born every minute.

[Easy Mac]

Chris Webber is traded to 76ers

[Rich1033]

That contract was highway robbery.

The Kings had finally gotten good for the first time, well, ever, during his contract year. Webber cries about how Sacramento is a cow town (fact), and that that he wants to play elsewhere.

He might have gotten good money someplace else, but there's no way he gets the max deal like he did from the Kings. And the Maloofs re-signed him, thinking that he's vital to the continued success of the franchise. It was a move made of fear, by a team that had no idea how to handle success. And now they're paying for it.

I have hoped all season, as Webber has finally been healthy for the first time in nearly three years, that the Knicks would trade for him. But it doesn't look like that will happen. And that's a shame. It would be nice for the Maloofs to see how good this team can be without being married to one aging player who really isn't the superstar that he's paid to be.
Looks like you have your wish. Webber to the 76ers for... not much. 6 player deal that I just saw reported on espn.

edit- bah, you beat me to it.

[stevew]

Horrible trade for the Kings. I thought that maybe they were getting like Glen Robinson and it would be a big salary dump. Kenny Thomas is undersized and has a huge contract. Corliss Williamson is also overpaid. Not sure what management is thinking here. Nice depth maybe.

[jbmagic]

The Sixers would send Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and Brian Skinner to the Kings in exchange for Webber, Matt Barnes and Michael Bradley.

[Logan]

Great trade for the Sixers since they were able to dump big money as well.

[Vince]

I'm hearing rumors that Baron Davis might be a Warrior before all is said and done. I would absolutely LOVE this deal if it were to happen -- Davis is one of my favorite players. His injury concerns this year, however, are a little frightening...

[LloydLungs]

I'm hearing rumors that Baron Davis might be a Warrior before all is said and done. I would absolutely LOVE this deal if it were to happen -- Davis is one of my favorite players. His injury concerns this year, however, are a little frightening...

Injury concerns this year... last year... and year before last... not to mention asking to be traded in the offseason, then whining about "not feeling wanted" here this week. Baron has a lot of growing up to do and he's incredibly fragile physically. But, when he's right, he's awesome. As a Hornet fan I still have mixed feelings despite the significant problems listed above. If this happens, we certainly seem to be piling up the cap room, but cap room is overrated.

[TazFTW]

Great trade for the Sixers since they were able to dump big money as well.
I look at the players the Sixers are sending over and have to say who the heck is getting payed that much it's dumping cash? Is it Corliss?

[General Mike]

Nets need to do something :(

[General Mike]

I look at the players the Sixers are sending over and have to say who the heck is getting payed that much it's dumping cash? Is it Corliss?

Williamson makes 5.5M this season, 6.0 next and 6.5 in 06-07.
Thomas makes 4.8, 5.3, 5.9, 6.4, 6.9, 7.4 (approximately) over the next 6 seasons.
Skinner makes 4.5M, 4.95 and 5.4

Bradley and Barnes make 720K and 620K respectively.

[Suicane75]

While I don't believe that this puts us ahead of Detroit or Miami, it does give us a much better chance. An excellent trade by the 76ers.

[sovereignstar]

While I don't believe that this puts us ahead of Detroit or Miami, it does give us a much better chance. An excellent trade by the 76ers.

You have to be a Nets fan because I say so. Aight? Coo

[Suicane75]

You have to be a Nets fan because I say so. Aight? Coo

The Nets play too close to NYC for my nose to handle.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

The Nets play too close to NYC for my nose to handle.

...and coming soon to Brooklyn! (Which is a good thing, because Brooklyn doesn't smell half as bad as New Jersey...)

[Eaglesfan27]

I really like this trade for the Sixers. It makes sense from a money standpoint, and I think Webber is a talent upgrade even if he isn't the Superstar people thought he was a few years ago.

[rkmsuf]

I really like this trade for the Sixers. It makes sense from a money standpoint, and I think Webber is a talent upgrade even if he isn't the Superstar people thought he was a few years ago.


How could you not. It locks up the division for them.

[SunDancer]

Van Horn is going to be a Mav.

[JeeberD]

Mike James is a Rocket (as well as Zendon Hamilton, who will be cut) in exchange for Reece Gaines and two second round picks...

[JeeberD]

Van Horn is going to be a Mav.

Dola-

That deal stinks... :mad:

[rkmsuf]

Dola-

That deal stinks... :mad:

He's only making 16 million next year.

[SunDancer]

Dallas gets Keith Van Horn from Milwaukee for Calvin Booth, the expiring contract of Alan Henderson and minimal cash considerations

[jbmagic]

The Knicks also traded Vin Baker and Moochie Norris to the Rockets for Maurice Taylor and a first-round pick

New York has traded Nazr Mohammed and Jamison Brewer to the Spurs for Malik Rose and a first-round pick.

Once again, team president Isiah Thomas is willing to take back huge contracts to get more talent. In the Spurs deal, the Knicks are sending back $5.5 million in future salaries for the remaining four years, $27.3 million of Rose's contract.

In the Rockets deal, Thomas is sending back $8 million in future salaries and getting back $18 million in return. In total, the Knicks, who have the largest payroll in the league, will add an extra $32 million in future salaries.

[Arles]

I'm surprised the Knicks didn't make a big charge for Van Horn's contract.

[stevew]

The Knicks also traded Vin Baker and Moochie Norris to the Rockets for Maurice Taylor and a first-round pick

New York has traded Nazr Mohammed and Jamison Brewer to the Spurs for Malik Rose and a first-round pick.

Once again, team president Isiah Thomas is willing to take back huge contracts to get more talent. In the Spurs deal, the Knicks are sending back $5.5 million in future salaries for the remaining four years, $27.3 million of Rose's contract.

In the Rockets deal, Thomas is sending back $8 million in future salaries and getting back $18 million in return. In total, the Knicks, who have the largest payroll in the league, will add an extra $32 million in future salaries.


At least he figured out how to get back picks finally. Cohesion be damned!

[stevew]

I'm surprised the Knicks didn't make a big charge for Van Horn's contract.
Been there, traded that. Too white.

[JeeberD]

We got Moochie back? Huh? And we're giving up up a first round draft pick?!?!? Bullshit! :mad:

[Arles]

ESPN is reporting some kind of deal that sends Antoine Walker back to Boston from Atlanta for a package involving Gary Payton.

[jbmagic]

Trade Deadline is over.

Damn the Lakers for not making a trade.

[rkmsuf]

ESPN is reporting some kind of deal that sends Antoine Walker back to Boston from Atlanta for a package involving Gary Payton.


Walker returns to Celtics in shocker
By Chad Ford, ESPN.com


The Hawks Thursday sent Antoine Walker back to the Celtics in return for Gary Payton, Michael Stewart and Tom Gugliotta, league sources told ESPN Insider Chad Ford.

Walker is averaging 20.4 points in over 40 minutes a game this season. He played for the Celtics from 1996 to 2003.

Payton, who reluctantly came to the Celtics in a summer trade from the Lakers, reportedly was in talks with the Celtics about a contract extension. Payton is eligible to become a free agent after this season.

Payton, in his 15th season in the NBA, has started all 54 games this season for the Celtics averaging 32.8 minutes a game.

[Crapshoot]

Man, what was the purpose of that deal ? One Expiring contract for another ? I see improvement for the Celts, but no improvement for the Hawks, who dont get any young players or talent out of it. Also, the Celts gave up Welsch earlier today- so Banks is the starting PG ?

[rkmsuf]

Man, what was the purpose of that deal ? One Expiring contract for another ? I see improvement for the Celts, but no improvement for the Hawks, who dont get any young players or talent out of it. Also, the Celts gave up Welsch earlier today- so Banks is the starting PG ?

Banks it is but you know Walker will command the ball.

How the heck does Walker average 20 shots a game? That's ridiculous for a 40% shooter.

[Logan]

These are the first trades the Knicks have made in a while that I'm not completely pissed off about.

Granted, it's not great taking on Rose's contract, but at least we gave up very little and got a couple first rounders back.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The New Orleans Hornets have traded guard Baron Davis to the Golden State Warriors for Dale Davis and Speedy Claxton, ESPN has learned.

Baron Davis, who returned to the Hornets' lineup Wednesday in a home loss to Seattle, appeared in only 17 of New Orleans' first 53 games because of back, heel and ankle ailments.

The former UCLA star would relish a move to his home state, sources told Stein, where Davis would be paired with Jason Richardson in a potentially high-scoring backcourt.

Baron Davis is averaging 18.9 points and 7.2 assists per game for New Orleans.

[Arles]

Looks like New Orleans is trying to basically start over. Bringing in Robinson and Davis' expiring contracts for Baron Davis, Mashburn and Rodgers should get them a bunch of cap space for 05-06.

[Sublime 2]

Banks it is but you know Walker will command the ball.

How the heck does Walker average 20 shots a game? That's ridiculous for a 40% shooter.

Well I'd say Banks or Delonte West. Those two will probably battle it out for the pg spot. Ainge nor Doc have been overly impressed w/ Banks' play. He's not the true point guard this team needs on a running team.

[stevew]

Thats a pretty good deal for both teams, the Hornets are content to play sucky ass Dickau at point, Claxton is a decent player. Plus they dump Baron, who was probably turning into a cancer. Warriors get a solid PG that should be happy about playing on the left coast again.

[Arles]

Can't believe everyone missed this blockbuster ;):

The Warriors traded forward Eduardo Najera and a No. 1 pick to the Nuggets for forwards Nikoloz Tskitishvili and Rodney White.

Najera is trying to break Jim Jackson's record for most times traded within a 3-year window.

[Blackadar]

That's a monster deal for the Celtics. Walker's $14m expiring contract for virtually nothing. Wow. Ainge is a mad scientist...and a damned good one.

They can put some serious talent on the floor now.

[rkmsuf]

Well I'd say Banks or Delonte West. Those two will probably battle it out for the pg spot. Ainge nor Doc have been overly impressed w/ Banks' play. He's not the true point guard this team needs on a running team.

He's just inconsistent and isn't sure with the ball on the break unless he takes it himself.

They love West but I'm not sure if he'll ever be much. Dunno, just a feeling.

I feel bad for Tony Allen, there go all his minutes. A shame, that guy is going to be really good but the rest of the year he'll be relegated to limited minutes.

[Arles]

That's a monster deal for the Celtics. Walker's $14m expiring contract for virtually nothing. Wow. Ainge is a mad scientist...and a damned good one.

They can put some serious talent on the floor now.
I agree. I actually like what Boston has done more than Philly. Getting Walker and Pierce together again for a run puts them in better shape to compete for the piss-poor Atlantic. Plus, Walker's deal expires at the end of the season and they can go a different direction if they so choose. Getting a 1st for a guy that was playing limited minutes (Welsch) isn't bad value either.

[stevew]

That's a monster deal for the Celtics. Walker's $14m expiring contract for virtually nothing. Wow. Ainge is a mad scientist...and a damned good one.

They can put some serious talent on the floor now.

The Hawks are perfectly content to trade talented players for nothing, as long as they get expiring contracts. See last years Wallace trade.

[rkmsuf]

That's a monster deal for the Celtics. Walker's $14m expiring contract for virtually nothing. Wow. Ainge is a mad scientist...and a damned good one.

They can put some serious talent on the floor now.

All of the C's contracts they traded expire this year as well.

The thing you forget is that Walker sucks.

He'll probably offer some short term improvement...enough to maybe, MAYBE, make the playoffs but nothing more.

Guy is totally a function of minutes. Shoots 40% but takes a gizillion shots. Anybody can score 20 taking that many shots. He isn't a very good rebounder and is useless playing a physical 4 or quick 3.

That being said he'll hit those lucky 3 point bank shots, fill some seats and maybe help Pierce to play better.

[Arles]

Also, is it me or are Webber and Walker essentially the same player at this point in their career?

[Ksyrup]

Well, at least the Walker deal is going to allow Bill Simmons to wring 4 columns out before March Madness starts.

[rkmsuf]

Also, is it me or are Webber and Walker essentially the same player at this point in their career?

Webber is a much better shooter and rebounder.

[Arles]

Webber is a much better shooter and rebounder.
Their rebound numbers are basically the same. And while Webber is a better mid-range shooter, Walker is better from behind the arc.

But, my point was both these guys have kind of gone the road of Charles Barkley in that they were initially inside scorers when the got in the league but now they simply hang out 15-20 feet from the hoop and launch jumpers.

[Gary Gorski]

Also, is it me or are Webber and Walker essentially the same player at this point in their career?

Attitude wise perhaps but Walker is nothing more than a chuckster with better handles than Webber. Walker put up good numbers because Atlanta had squat on their team and because he never met a shot he didn't like. Hope the rest of the C's are ready to be passers, defenders and rebounders because with Pierce and Walker on the floor the other three are going to be spectators on offense and playing 3 against 5 on the defensive end.

[rkmsuf]

Walker has good hands but has no clue what to do with the ball or how to position his body.

Neither is great but people always overestimate Walker's game. It's mediocre at best.

[Blackadar]

All of the C's contracts they traded expire this year as well.

The thing you forget is that Walker sucks.

He'll probably offer some short term improvement...enough to maybe, MAYBE, make the playoffs but nothing more.

Guy is totally a function of minutes. Shoots 40% but takes a gizillion shots. Anybody can score 20 taking that many shots. He isn't a very good rebounder and is useless playing a physical 4 or quick 3.

That being said he'll hit those lucky 3 point bank shots, fill some seats and maybe help Pierce to play better.

I'm not a huge Walker fan. I liked it when he got traded. But as far as deals go, this is a damn good one. The C's needed some major front line help with Blount sucking the big one after he got his contract in the offseason. This gives them a guy who has put up:

20+ PPG
9.4 RPG
3.7 APG
40 Mins Per Game

Yes, he shoots .415. If Danny/Doc can keep him under control, this is a major upgrade. And I think they can...they did with Payton (who was putting up 12 PPG and 6 APG) who has a reputation for being a troublemaker. They have with Ricky Davis, who had a rep on par with Ron Artest before becoming a Celtic.

Plus, his contract expires at the end of the year.

You say "he'll probably offer some short term improvement...enough to maybe, MAYBE, make the playoffs but nothing more." Well, they weren't going to be world-beaters anyway. They probably had just enough talent to make the playoffs before.

This is a much better (deeper, younger, more athletic) team than the one that went to the Eastern Conference Championship a few years ago. Who's to say that with Walker back they can't do it again or better? If they don't, what did they lose?

And by all accounts, this is going to make Paul Pierce happier too...

I'm sure there's a downside somewhere. I just can't see it right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I didn't think a whole lot of the Atlanta-Boston trade, until I noticed the AJC was reporting that the Hawks got a 1st round pick along with the trio of graybeards.
Now that part I like, at this point, pretty much any 1st rounder is a better fit than what they've got to work with.
flashes back to Goose Givens
On 2nd thought ...

[Gary Gorski]

Their rebound numbers are basically the same. And while Webber is a better mid-range shooter, Walker is better from behind the arc.



Player G MPG FG FGP FT FTP 3PT 3PTP RPG APG SPG TPG BPG PPG
Walker, Antoine F ATL 53 40.2 420 41.5 157 53.4 85 31.7 9.38 3.66 1.21 3.45 0.60 20.42
Webber, Chris F SAC 46 36.3 412 44.9 143 79.9 11 37.9 9.72 5.48 1.48 2.89 0.74 21.2

In 4 more MPG Walker scores less points, blocks fewer shots, gets fewer steals, makes fewer assists and fewer boards and shoots a very nice 53% from the charity stripe. If I had to choose, I'd take C-Webb.

[Gary Gorski]

This is a much better (deeper, younger, more athletic) team than the one that went to the Eastern Conference Championship a few years ago. Who's to say that with Walker back they can't do it again or better?

If the season ended today Boston would be the 3rd seed (yet worst overall team in the playoffs). If they got by Orlando they would run into the Pistons and there is no way they can beat Detroit in a 7 game series.


I'm sure there's a downside somewhere. I just can't see it right now.

I see the downside - his name is Walker - there is a reason why Dallas was worse with him. Antoine was a perfect fit in Atlanta - take all the shots he wanted and pad his stats playing 40 MPG. I don't think its any mistake that Atlanta happens to be the worst team in the NBA right now.

I would be surprised if more than the Atlantic division winner makes the playoffs and its a dead heat with Boston and Philly. Pierce/Walker vs AI/C-Webb...gimme Philly in that one.

[Blackadar]

Player G MPG FG FGP FT FTP 3PT 3PTP RPG APG SPG TPG BPG PPG
Walker, Antoine F ATL 53 40.2 420 41.5 157 53.4 85 31.7 9.38 3.66 1.21 3.45 0.60 20.42
Webber, Chris F SAC 46 36.3 412 44.9 143 79.9 11 37.9 9.72 5.48 1.48 2.89 0.74 21.2

In 4 more MPG Walker scores less points, blocks fewer shots, gets fewer steals, makes fewer assists and fewer boards and shoots a very nice 53% from the charity stripe. If I had to choose, I'd take C-Webb.

Yes, the 76ers may have gotten the better end of the deal from a talent standpoint. But they had to give up two role players (the kind of guys who will get 10 points and 4-5 boards in 20 mins off the bench) and had to absorb Weber's HUGE contract, which has another 3 years to run.

The C's got Walker for essentially NOTHING. Payton (who wasn't going to return and wanted out badly), Stewart (who doesn't play) and Googs (ditto).

Not a bad deal...even if Walker were to sit on the bench it's not a bad deal for the Cs. That it should make Paul Pierce happier and bring some badly-needed rebounding to the Cs...it's a winner!

[rkmsuf]

I'm not a huge Walker fan. I liked it when he got traded. But as far as deals go, this is a damn good one. The C's needed some major front line help with Blount sucking the big one after he got his contract in the offseason. This gives them a guy who has put up:

20+ PPG
9.4 RPG
3.7 APG
40 Mins Per Game

Yes, he shoots .415. If Danny/Doc can keep him under control, this is a major upgrade. And I think they can...they did with Payton (who was putting up 12 PPG and 6 APG) who has a reputation for being a troublemaker. They have with Ricky Davis, who had a rep on par with Ron Artest before becoming a Celtic.

Plus, his contract expires at the end of the year.

You say "he'll probably offer some short term improvement...enough to maybe, MAYBE, make the playoffs but nothing more." Well, they weren't going to be world-beaters anyway. They probably had just enough talent to make the playoffs before.

This is a much better (deeper, younger, more athletic) team than the one that went to the Eastern Conference Championship a few years ago. Who's to say that with Walker back they can't do it again or better? If they don't, what did they lose?

And by all accounts, this is going to make Paul Pierce happier too...

I'm sure there's a downside somewhere. I just can't see it right now.

There's no "downside" but to declare Ainge a genius is a bit much because Walker isn't much.

[Gary Gorski]

The C's got Walker for essentially NOTHING. Payton (who wasn't going to return and wanted out badly), Stewart (who doesn't play) and Googs (ditto).



True they got Walker for nothing BUT they're either going to have to pony up big dollars to keep him or let him walk for nothing as well.

And I wouldn't exactly call a 1st round pick nothing. I don't know when that 1st rounder comes into play or if there are protections on it but the Celtics very well could miss the playoffs this year and in the following years as well. Is potentially giving up a lottery pick worth renting Walker for 3 months to maybe slide into the playoffs (or having to be saddled with a big new contract for him after this season)

[Blackadar]

If the season ended today Boston would be the 3rd seed (yet worst overall team in the playoffs). If they got by Orlando they would run into the Pistons and there is no way they can beat Detroit in a 7 game series.

I see the downside - his name is Walker - there is a reason why Dallas was worse with him. Antoine was a perfect fit in Atlanta - take all the shots he wanted and pad his stats playing 40 MPG. I don't think its any mistake that Atlanta happens to be the worst team in the NBA right now.

I would be surprised if more than the Atlantic division winner makes the playoffs and its a dead heat with Boston and Philly. Pierce/Walker vs AI/C-Webb...gimme Philly in that one.

We'll just disagree, Gary. I'm not a huge Walker fan (as I said before), but I just don't see the harm in bringing Walker on. It's not like the Cs have any great team chemistry to destroy. Payton was starting to cause problems (like he threw the ball into the stands in disgust two nights ago). Stewart and Googs didn't even play.

As I said, it should be interesting...I think Danny/Doc can keep Walker under control and get him to do what he does best...bring the ball up the court, rebound and be a secondary scorer.

And you could put LeBron on Atlanta and they'd still be the worst team in the NBA. Al Harrington? Tony Delk? Predrag Drobnjak? Tyronn Lue? These guys should be lucky to make an NBA roster, not be playing 22+ MPG. You can say that he stunk up the joint in Dallas (I always felt that was a bad fit). You can't blame Atlanta's performance on Walker. Come on.

[rkmsuf]

The shame for Boston is taking minutes away from Allen and Jefferson for that stiff.

[sterlingice]

Can't say I'm all that excited about the Knicks trade. I swear, other than picking Yao, when was the last time the Rockets had a first round draft pick? Hell, when was the last time they both a 1st and a 2nd. Seems like it's been forever. Vin Baker?? He hasn't been good for 5 years. And Moochie continues to get passed around like a cheap... Anyways, I digress- so they give up pick ~20 to essentially get rid of Taylor? Stupid.

I don't know a thing about the Mike James trade or Mike James, for that matter. Any info on that Jeebs or any Bucks fans?

I guess they really didn't make any big changes and just added to depth. It would have been stupid to start screwing with the chemistry of a team who had won 8 in the row going into the All Star break.

SI

[bosshogg23]

I cant remember a year when this many trades happened at the deadline. I am a little suprised that Phoenix didnt get anything done.

[Blackadar]

rkmsuf, when I declare Ainge a "genius", then quote me on it. Until then, please don't put words in my mouth. I think Ainge has shown that he's a very good GM thus far. Genius? Not until the Cs start winning big.

Gary, I wonder about the 1st rounder...if it's Clevelands (from the Jiri Welch trade), protected or unprotected. You're right, that does make a difference.

Of course, the Cs have a lot of youngsters with a lot of potential right now - look at Allen and Al Jefferson in the rookie game. With Delonte back (17 points the other night) and Marcus Banks starting to show some game, that group has a lot of promise.

[Gary Gorski]

We'll just disagree, Gary. I'm not a huge Walker fan (as I said before), but I just don't see the harm in bringing Walker on. It's not like the Cs have any great team chemistry to destroy. Payton was starting to cause problems (like he threw the ball into the stands in disgust two nights ago). Stewart and Googs didn't even play.

Im not trying to argue with you - its just that so few hoops discussions come around on FOFC I have to get in while I can :) I agree moving Payton was a good move. The only thing I don't like about the deal is that they gave up a 1st round pick. If they could have done it without the pick then I would be fine with it because they could just let Walker leave again as a FA and there would be no long term ramifications. If they resign him for a big contract they're shooting themselves in the foot though.

And you could put LeBron on Atlanta and they'd still be the worst team in the NBA. You can't blame Atlanta's performance on Walker. Come on.

Disagree there - LeBron and the Cavs are 1.5 GB the defending champs. Who is so great there? Take a look at guys like McInnis and Gooden and look at their stats pre-LeBron and now with LeBron in year 2. Their starting lineup is McInnis, LeBron, Newble, Gooden and Ilgauskas. Z is solid but other than that those guys make the Cavs third best in the East? Atlanta would not be the worst team if you put James on there - Cleveland might be though if you took him off. Either them or Charlotte. But Atlanta is worse than an expansion team with Walker - you swap Walker and LeBron and Atlanta improves by at least 10 games.

[Blackadar]

The shame for Boston is taking minutes away from Allen and Jefferson for that stiff.

Allen plays the 1 and 2.

Al Jefferson plays the 4.

It's very likely Walker will play the 3 and 4.

In fact, with Payton and Jiri moving on, Allen's minutes will likely increase, as will Banks' and West's.

Al Jefferson may see a reduction, but he's only now returning from injury.

I think it's Perkins who will see a larger reduction...

[Gary Gorski]

I don't know a thing about the Mike James trade or Mike James, for that matter. Any info on that Jeebs or any Bucks fans?




You're gonna like James in H-Town. Extremely hard worker, doesn't complain, doesn't need to shoot, plays great D and will fit great getting the ball to T-Mac and Yao. Excellent pickup by the Rockets.

[Blackadar]

BTW, preliminary info says either the pick is VERY protected or (more likely) the Lakers #1 pick.

[rkmsuf]

Im not trying to argue with you - its just that so few hoops discussions come around on FOFC I have to get in while I can :) I agree moving Payton was a good move. The only thing I don't like about the deal is that they gave up a 1st round pick. If they could have done it without the pick then I would be fine with it because they could just let Walker leave again as a FA and there would be no long term ramifications. If they resign him for a big contract they're shooting themselves in the foot though.





The first round pick had to be the Cleveland 2007 pick they got earlier. Based on where Cleveland is headed that isn't much.

I don't have a problem with the deal exept for the folks that think Walker is the savior and suddenly the C's will run away with the Atlantic.

Now they have a chance to be .500. That's it.

[Sharpieman]

The New Orleans Hornets have traded guard Baron Davis to the Golden State Warriors for Dale Davis and Speedy Claxton, ESPN has learned.

Baron Davis, who returned to the Hornets' lineup Wednesday in a home loss to Seattle, appeared in only 17 of New Orleans' first 53 games because of back, heel and ankle ailments.

The former UCLA star would relish a move to his home state, sources told Stein, where Davis would be paired with Jason Richardson in a potentially high-scoring backcourt.

Baron Davis is averaging 18.9 points and 7.2 assists per game for New Orleans.
:eek: :eek: :eek: WOW
I love you Chris Mullin :D

[ice4277]

You're gonna like James in H-Town. Extremely hard worker, doesn't complain, doesn't need to shoot, plays great D and will fit great getting the ball to T-Mac and Yao. Excellent pickup by the Rockets.
James was also a key stopper off the bench for the Pistons in the playoffs last year. He brings a lot of energy. Good player.

[Blackadar]

Oh and there's another interesting rumor...probably far-fetched.

But the rumor is that Atlanta will cut Payton, who will resign a pre-negotiated 2 year contract with the Celtics. Very weird...

[rkmsuf]

Allen plays the 1 and 2.

Al Jefferson plays the 4.

It's very likely Walker will play the 3 and 4.

In fact, with Payton and Jiri moving on, Allen's minutes will likely increase, as will Banks' and West's.

Al Jefferson may see a reduction, but he's only now returning from injury.

I think it's Perkins who will see a larger reduction...

I'd guess it's

Banks/West
Pierce at the 2
Walker the 3
LaFrentz
Blount

Allen doesn't play much 1.

Davis will get significant minutes. Unless they shelve West, Allen is the odd man out for now. Jefferson will still get minutes for LaFrentz and Blount.

[Blackadar]

I'd guess it's

Banks/West
Pierce at the 2
Walker the 3
LaFrentz
Blount

Allen doesn't play much 1.

Davis will get significant minutes. Unless they shelve West, Allen is the odd man out for now. Jefferson will still get minutes for LaFrentz and Blount.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see...

Banks/West
Pierce at the 2 (with Allen as his main backup)
Walker the 3
Jefferson
LaFrentz

With Blount and Davis coming off the bench.

Blount has been AWFUL this year. I think it's very likely that he's going to get benched to put a fire under his ass.

[rkmsuf]

They will never not start Blount.

If Walker insists on 40 minutes Davis will get the majority of left overs. Unless they go really small at times.

[Arles]

Player G MPG FG FGP FT FTP 3PT 3PTP RPG APG SPG TPG BPG PPG
Walker, Antoine F ATL 53 40.2 420 41.5 157 53.4 85 31.7 9.38 3.66 1.21 3.45 0.60 20.42
Webber, Chris F SAC 46 36.3 412 44.9 143 79.9 11 37.9 9.72 5.48 1.48 2.89 0.74 21.2

In 4 more MPG Walker scores less points, blocks fewer shots, gets fewer steals, makes fewer assists and fewer boards and shoots a very nice 53% from the charity stripe. If I had to choose, I'd take C-Webb.
My point was more that they are both over-rated perimeter based "power forwards". I agree that, by the numbers, Webber is probably a little better. But, to me, it's like saying badly burnt steak tastes better than charcoal. While probably correct, does it really matter as they both taste like crap.

[rkmsuf]

Should they not start Blount...yes. I think he sucks. Can't rebound a lick.

Will it be done...no.

I never wanted them to sign that guy.

[sterlingice]

You're gonna like James in H-Town. Extremely hard worker, doesn't complain, doesn't need to shoot, plays great D and will fit great getting the ball to T-Mac and Yao. Excellent pickup by the Rockets.
Very cool. :)

Should be interesting to see how many minutes he gets. Bobby Sura had been playing point and was becoming the third scoring option over the past couple of weeks.

SI

[Blackadar]

They will never not start Blount.

If Walker insists on 40 minutes Davis will get the majority of left overs. Unless they go really small at times.

We'll see. The noise coming out of Boston is that Ainge is REALLY pissed at Blount and his lack of performance - 10 PPG and 5 RPG in 30 mins is awful. And he seems to be getting worse each week. I wouldn't put it past Danny to bench him.

As I said before, I can see this as a starting lineup:

Banks/West
Pierce at the 2 (with Allen as his main backup)
Walker the 3
Jefferson
LaFrentz

With Walker rotating to the 4 to spell Jefferson (or Perk coming in), Ricky Davis coming in at the 3, Perkins spelling LaFrentz and Allen coming in for Pierce. Making the second unit look like:

West
Allen
Davis
Walker/Perkins
Blount/Perkins

This kind of rotation would give Walker his shots and minutes.

The Cs can put 3 legitimate 20 point scorers on the floor now...Pierce, Davis and Walker (at the 2, 3 and 4 if need be). Now that's not a great defensive group (to say the least), but that's a lot of firepower...

[rkmsuf]

For Blount it's the rebounding that baffles me. He's never on the defensive board. He's a good shooter not doubt but the guy must be really soft not to be on the glass. He makes Pierce have to pull down 7-10 a night on the defensive board.

[Blackadar]

For Blount it's the rebounding that baffles me. He's never on the defensive board. He's a good shooter not doubt but the guy must be really soft not to be on the glass. He makes Pierce have to pull down 7-10 a night on the defensive board.

What's a shame is he put up some good numbers last year playing for his contract. This year he's just a big, stonehanded stiff....

[rkmsuf]

What's a shame is he put up some good numbers last year playing for his contract. This year he's just a big, stonehanded stiff....

I never thought he was much. Somehow he applied himself to get 7 rebounds a game last year in the same minutes as opposed to 5 this year.

I guess the shame is he didn't take his game up to another level.

[Franklinnoble]

Oh and there's another interesting rumor...probably far-fetched.

But the rumor is that Atlanta will cut Payton, who will resign a pre-negotiated 2 year contract with the Celtics. Very weird...


That would be a pretty obvious case of cap circumvention, and there's no way it'll happen.

[Blackadar]

That would be a pretty obvious case of cap circumvention, and there's no way it'll happen.

I wouldn't think so either, but I've seen it now in a couple of places.

[Blackadar]

As far as the #1 pick, depending on what it is, I don't think the C's are missing anything

The Cs are already a very young team with all of these guys in their 1st or 2nd year.

Marcus Banks
Al Jefferson
Tony Allen
Delonte West
Kendrick Perkins
Justin Reed

It could be argued that all, with the possible exception of Reed, have showed potential enough to give them a chance. Jefferson and Allen without a doubt, but West just got back from being injured and put up 17. Perkins is a monster on the glass. Banks is finally starting to show some skills (if he can learn how to shoot).

The Cs hold their pick, the Lakers' 1st round pick, their 2nd round pick and Phoenix' 2nd round pick this coming year. That's 4 more youngsters on top of the 6 above. Now with 3 more selections the following year (Cleveland's #1, Boston's #1 and 2nd round), that's 7 more youngsters in the next two years. That's a LOT of young talent - too many roster spots would be taken up.

So giving up the 1st rounder - especially if protected (or Clevelands or the Lakers pick) doesn't really cost them much. It only is a risk if it's unprotected.

EDIT:

Oh, and the Cs have to pick someone up...they only have 11 players on the roster now I think.

[Gary Gorski]

My point was more that they are both over-rated perimeter based "power forwards". I agree that, by the numbers, Webber is probably a little better. But, to me, it's like saying badly burnt steak tastes better than charcoal. While probably correct, does it really matter as they both taste like crap.

Well I don't think Webber is over-rated though. Over-paid, yes but look at the numbers he puts up and those are numbers sharing the ball with Peja and not to mention Bibby and Brad Miller who get their share as well. And on top of that his numbers come from a schedule heavy with the other best PFs in the league (Garnett, Duncan, Amare, Brand...). Walker's numbers come from being the #1 (and 2 and 3) scoring option on the worst team in the NBA in the Eastern conference and they're still worse.

Webber may not spend as much time in the post as a Duncan but he's also not standing behind the three point arc anywhere near as much as Walker. I think Philly adding Webber gives them the division and a shot to make a run in the playoffs although they're still not as good as Detroit or Miami (w/ a healthy Shaq). Boston adding Walker makes them lucky to sneak in if they can catch the 8th seed and more than likely a 1st round loser if they do.

[Blackadar]

The first-round draft pick the Hawks will receive is the lesser of the Celtics’ own 2005 first-round pick and the pick they obtained from the Lakers on August 13, 2004 as part of the Payton deal. Regardless of when the Hawks receive the pick, it is lottery protected.

So it's not going to be a great pick regardless...

[Arles]

To backup what Blackadar was saying above, this just appeared on the ESPN insider page:

"Feb. 25 - Reports indicate that Payton, traded to Atlanta in a package that sent Antoine Walker back to Boston, will never wear a Hawks uniform. Atlanta GM Billy Knight wouldn't discuss Payton's future with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, but the paper cites sources who say Payton will request and receive his release from Atlanta so he can sign with a contender as a free agent.

The paper indicates one team that could be interested in picking up Payton is -- drumroll, please -- the Boston Celtics. Aaron Goodwin, Payton's agent, recently told the Boston Herald his client had come to like Boston and that Goodwin had discussed a two-year extension with the Celtics.

As long as Payton is waived by March 1, he will be eligible to sign with another team and play in the playoffs. Other teams thought to be interested in Payton are the Heat and the Timberwolves."

If this happens, Boston will become a favorite over Philly for the division. Having Payton, Pierce and Walker would really put Boston in good shape for a decent run in the East.

[LionsFan10]

Any rumors involving Shawn Kemp??

[rkmsuf]

To backup what Blackadar was saying above, this just appeared on the ESPN insider page:

"Feb. 25 - Reports indicate that Payton, traded to Atlanta in a package that sent Antoine Walker back to Boston, will never wear a Hawks uniform. Atlanta GM Billy Knight wouldn't discuss Payton's future with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, but the paper cites sources who say Payton will request and receive his release from Atlanta so he can sign with a contender as a free agent.

The paper indicates one team that could be interested in picking up Payton is -- drumroll, please -- the Boston Celtics. Aaron Goodwin, Payton's agent, recently told the Boston Herald his client had come to like Boston and that Goodwin had discussed a two-year extension with the Celtics.

As long as Payton is waived by March 1, he will be eligible to sign with another team and play in the playoffs. Other teams thought to be interested in Payton are the Heat and the Timberwolves."

If this happens, Boston will become a favorite over Philly for the division. Having Payton, Pierce and Walker would really put Boston in good shape for a decent run in the East.

I don't see how the C's would be allowed to resign him without the Warren Commission taking over and giving the entire Boston organization a rectal exam.

[Gary Gorski]

I hope he does sign with Boston - I love a good trainwreck.

Can you imagine Payton, Ricky Davis, Pierce and 'Toine on the floor at the same time? Payton, Davis and Pierce have all dropped in PPG since playing with each other this year - you add Walker into that mix and its going to be a fight to see who can get their hands on the ball first to shoot - and don't think that any one of them will hesitate to bring it coast to coast for their own shot if they feel its necessary. Not to mention with LaFrentz out there - they'll be running a 5 out offense.

[rkmsuf]

One big fear with Walker is that he goes on some weird contract drive and starts trying to do everything out there to get his numbers.

Doc will strangle him in the shower if he starts heaving up 3s.

[Blackadar]

I don't see how the C's would be allowed to resign him without the Warren Commission taking over and giving the entire Boston organization a rectal exam.

Detriot did it last year with Lindsay Hunter. So it's been done in the past...

[rkmsuf]

Detriot did it last year with Lindsay Hunter. So it's been done in the past...

Didn't realize that but it's a shady practice.

[Arles]

Didn't realize that but it's a shady practice.
Why? Atlanta saves money by not having to pay Walker and there's no doubt that Payton would settle to be released for less than he is owed. Plus, the Hawks get a first round pick. Both Atlanta (cap space/cash, pick) and Boston (Payton, Walker) would make out well in this deal. And any team would be free to sign Payton when he's released.

[rkmsuf]

Why? Atlanta saves money by not having to pay Walker and there's no doubt that Payton would settle to be released for less than he is owed. Plus, the Hawks get a first round pick. Both Atlanta (cap space/cash, pick) and Boston (Payton, Walker) would make out well in this deal. And any team would be free to sign Payton when he's released.

A prearranged deal involving compensating Atlanta for buying out his deal would be deadly for salary cap rules.

It's definately shady because they couldn't just ship Atlanta a pick for Walker yet still end up with that ultimately.

[sterlingice]

I'm trying to remember what exactly the Timberpuppies did in the Joe Smith debacle that cost them. I remember it was shady, but I don't remember what.

SI

[stevew]

I'm trying to remember what exactly the Timberpuppies did in the Joe Smith debacle that cost them. I remember it was shady, but I don't remember what.

SI


They had 3 one year contracts written down on a napkin, and then a 7 year Max contract for 84!!!! million dollars agreed on. Losing 5 first rounders is one thing, but paying smith 12 million a season would likely be much, much worse.

[Blackadar]

I'm trying to remember what exactly the Timberpuppies did in the Joe Smith debacle that cost them. I remember it was shady, but I don't remember what.

SI

They signed him (as a FA) to a 1 year deal at the min. exception level with the promise of resigning him to a long-term, big money deal when they could make the salary cap exception the following year.

This is different. My guess is the parameters of any deal with Payton have been worked out, but it is by no means guaranteed. It's probably along the lines of "IF Altanta releases you and IF you decide to come back, here's the terms we would propose". Remember that Atlanta doesn't have to let him go and other teams can claim him - and he can sign anywhere he wants anyway. So the situations are very different.

[rkmsuf]

They signed him (as a FA) to a 1 year deal at the min. exception level with the promise of resigning him to a long-term, big money deal when they could make the salary cap exception the following year.

This is different. My guess is the parameters of any deal with Payton have been worked out, but it is by no means guaranteed. It's probably along the lines of "IF Altanta releases you and IF you decide to come back, here's the terms we would propose". Remember that Atlanta doesn't have to let him go and other teams can claim him - and he can sign anywhere he wants anyway. So the situations are very different.

But what if Boston said "We'll give you a first round pick if you release Payton."?

[Blackadar]

stevew beat me to it :)

[stevew]

The pistons tried a similar thing this year, trading Elden Campbell for Carlos Arryo, and then the Jazz were cutting Campbell. Before the pistons could sign him back, tho, the Nets claimed Campbell off of waivers.

[stevew]

They signed him (as a FA) to a 1 year deal at the min. exception level with the promise of resigning him to a long-term, big money deal when they could make the salary cap exception the following year.

This is different. My guess is the parameters of any deal with Payton have been worked out, but it is by no means guaranteed. It's probably along the lines of "IF Altanta releases you and IF you decide to come back, here's the terms we would propose". Remember that Atlanta doesn't have to let him go and other teams can claim him - and he can sign anywhere he wants anyway. So the situations are very different.


Yeah, since the CBA had changed, Smith was gonna have to be on the T-Wolves for 3 years before he could get full bird rights(and the salary cap exception that comes with it). Smith was relatively young, so him taking the small deal just didnt sit right.

[Blackadar]

They will never not start Blount.

If Walker insists on 40 minutes Davis will get the majority of left overs. Unless they go really small at times.

*ahem*

Blount came off the bench tonight...didn't help - in 20 minutes he has 6 points, 5 boards, 2 assists, 4 TOs and 5 PFs. Blech!

The starting 5 was:

C - Raef Lafrentz
PF - Antoine Walker
SG - Paul Pierce
SG - Tony Allen
PG - Delonte West

Celtics 109, Jazz 102

3 guard lineup to start the game...interesting, especially with West the starter. Walker had a very good night - 10-18 from the floor, 24 points, 10 boards. Only 2 3 point attempts.

Blount, Davis, Al Jefferson and Marcus Banks have all had significant playing time tonight. TA got into early foul trouble and so is PP.

In a night where PP only plays 24 mins because of foul trouble, Ricky Davis is 2-10 from the field...the Celtics win. This one has to be chalked up to Walker - give him some kudos on this one, he helped carry the team.

As an aside, West had another good game. 16 points, 7 boards, 3 assists, 2 steals and 2 TOs. Payton supposedly praised this kid to Ainge right after the trade - West may be why Payton was expendable.

[Craptacular]

I love this time of year ... when the travesty that is the NBA salary cap is in full bloom. What an awful, awful mess they've made of everything with all these exceptions. I just hope the NFL is not going down that same road with the veteran's exception.

[Gary Gorski]

I love this time of year ... when the travesty that is the NBA salary cap is in full bloom. What an awful, awful mess they've made of everything with all these exceptions. I just hope the NFL is not going down that same road with the veteran's exception.

Um, what do you mean awful, awful mess? What's wrong with the NBA CBA? Would you rather a system where teams can pay as much as they can afford to pay players with huge advantages to teams in large markets (MLB) or a system where every year good veteran players are released or have their contracts renegotiated by the threat of being cut if they don't (NFL) and lets not even mention the NHL.

In a way the NFL is nice - you have X dollars to spend and you have to be under that. However it creates two tiers of players - the stars getting paid millions and everyone else forced to play for the minimum or not far above it. The NFL makes it very difficult if not impossible for a player to be able to stay with one team - how many times has a well liked veteran had to be cut because he was going to make too much money? As a fan, that sucks.

The NBA does allow for teams to make more mistakes with their contracts since most teams operate over the cap but its nice that the rich teams can't simply buy all the talent and its nice that players have incentives to stay with the same team for a long time since that is the way they can make the most money.

[Craptacular]

Um, what do you mean awful, awful mess? What's wrong with the NBA CBA? Would you rather a system where teams can pay as much as they can afford to pay players with huge advantages to teams in large markets (MLB) or a system where every year good veteran players are released or have their contracts renegotiated by the threat of being cut if they don't (NFL) and lets not even mention the NHL.
I'll start with the end of your statement (and not mention the NHL). MLB is pretty much non-existent in my eyes, so you get no arguments from me there.

I searched out an old thread HERE (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=23280&highlight=nba) that we partially threadjacked into a salary cap discussion. Here was one of my posts:

I now watch about 0.5 NBA games per year. The NBA has such fun exceptions as the "Larry Bird", the "Early Bird", the "Non-Bird", the "Million Dollar", the "Mid-Level", and so on. The Larry Bird exception is the big one, which allows teams to exceed the salary cap when signing their own free agents, as long as those players have gone three years without changing teams through waivers or free agency. They CAN be traded while allowing the new team to use the Bird exception. The exceptions are a big reason why there are so many "sign-and-trade" deals in the NBA, and why so many trades involve multiple teams and players.
This is a joke. The cap is useless. This year's "cap" is about $44 million, but the Knicks now have four players who make a combined $59.7 million this year (A Houston, S Marbury, A Hardway, T Thomas). As of Feb 5th, only 6 teams had total salaries under the "cap", and the Knicks payroll was over $100 million. Why even bother with this fallacy of a "cap"??

Just take a look at some of the deadline trades this year to see how horrible the NBA system is:
* Baron Davis for Dale Davis and Speedy Claxton: only reason Hornets made the deal is to get rid an expiring contract
* Keith Van Horn for Alan Henderson and Calvin Booth: the Bucks give up a contributor for a player they waived a day later and another who might also never play a minute for them
* Glenn Robinson for Jamal Mashburn and Rodney Rogers: The Hornets get a guy who has not played this year and will never play for them in exchange for a player who has not played this year and will likely retire, and a contributor ... but they open up that cap money next year!
* Antoine Walker for Gary Payton and others - again, trading for a player just to immediately waive him. Payton might even end up back with the Celts!

Personally, I'd rather see a hard cap with players getting waived than the current crap that goes on in the NBA. Teams should be punished for signing stupid contracts.

[Blackadar]

And I know this topic is about played out, but it's worth mentioning...

Celtics 2-0 since the Walker Trade.

33 points (12-32, 1-4 from 3pt range), 13 boards, 6 assists against the Suns - at Phoenix. That's a big win in a very high-intensity game (7 techs!).

Another interesting starting lineup...

Raef LaFrentz C (9 points)
Walker PF (33 points)
Ricky Davis SF (16 points)
Paul Pierce SG (25 points)
Delonte West PG (19 points)

Blount only got in 14 minutes. Al Jefferson 6 minutes.

[rkmsuf]

And I know this topic is about played out, but it's worth mentioning...

Celtics 2-0 since the Walker Trade.

33 points (12-32, 1-4 from 3pt range), 13 boards, 6 assists against the Suns - at Phoenix. That's a big win in a very high-intensity game (7 techs!).

Another interesting starting lineup...

Raef LaFrentz C (9 points)
Walker PF (33 points)
Ricky Davis SF (16 points)
Paul Pierce SG (25 points)
Delonte West PG (19 points)

Blount only got in 14 minutes. Al Jefferson 6 minutes.

Your are smart, I am dumb.

Even if he missed 20 shots last night, Walker is playing some inspired ball.

[Gary Gorski]

Personally, I'd rather see a hard cap with players getting waived than the current crap that goes on in the NBA. Teams should be punished for signing stupid contracts.

What's the difference between them being waived and the team getting nothing but the salary off the books and the team trading them for crap and getting basically nothing but the salary off the books? Teams are punished in the NBA, much more so than the NFL, for signing stupid contracts - case in point the Knicks.

Tell me how the Knicks are going to rebuild in the next 5 years? Like you said 4 guys alone put them over the cap and they have a team full of bad contracts. Nobody will trade for these players until their contracts run out, they can't cut them and since they're over the cap they can't sign any free agent from another team to anything other than the mid-level exception and what superstar is going to take 4-5 million when he can get twice that from his own team or a team with cap space?

Another good thing about the NBA cap is that teams aren't necessarily screwed when free agency rolls around. If a good player is a free agent and wants to leave his team he will either sign with another team for less money or get his team to sign him to the max deal and trade him - that works out great for the team losing him because at least they can get something like when the Pistons were about to lose Grant Hill to the Magic - they did a sign and trade and got Ben Wallace amongst other things.

The NBA cap is exactly what people call it - a soft cap. It's not a number teams have to stay under but there are advantages to being under the cap. It allows you to sign free agents from other teams and gives you greater flexibility when making a trade because then you can actually trade players based on value and not have to come up with salaries that balance out. Teams that operate over the cap are punished to a degree - just watch the Knicks in the next 5 years - that is if Zeke doesn't run them further into the ground - then it could be 10 years before they could dig out.

[Blackadar]

Your are smart, I am dumb.

Even if he missed 20 shots last night, Walker is playing some inspired ball.

No, I just happen to get some inside info from time to time. Also, this was in the news this morning.

hxxp://celtics.bostonherald.com/celtics/view.bg?articleid=70707

Agent: Payton leaning toward return
By Steve Bulpett/ Celtics Notebook
Monday, February 28, 2005

PHOENIX - Gary Payton should be placed on waivers today by Atlanta and, assuming he clears, the point guard is leaning toward a return to the Celtics.

``We've reached an agreement with the Hawks, and things should be in place no later than early (today),'' said Payton's agent, Aaron Goodwin. ``It's just going to be a matter of getting the paperwork approved by the league.''

The unlikelihood that Payton will be claimed off waivers is based on the fact a team would have to be more than $5.4 million under the salary cap or have an exception that size to take on the veteran.



Payton then will be free to sign where he wishes, and Goodwin said yesterday he has had some interesting calls from teams which reportedly include Miami and Phoenix.

``Quite honestly, Gary's out with his family and his mom, and I haven't talked to him much,'' Goodwin said. ``I think he's leaning toward coming back to the Celtics. I think he likes what's going on in Boston. I still have to talk to him about things, but I think that's where he wants to end up. But you never know with Gary.''

Meanwhile, the Celtics don't appear to be counting on anything with Payton just yet. There still is interest in bringing back Kenny Anderson, who was waived by the Hawks to make room for their new players. Anderson said he will sign with either the Clippers or Celts.

Despite the fact rookie Delonte West and sophomore Marcus Banks [news] played well late in the road trip, the C's do not plan to cast their lot entirely with the youngsters.

``What I saw of Delonte and Marcus is what I've been seeing from them in practice,'' director of basketball operations Danny Ainge said before last night's 120-113 overtime win against the Suns. ``It's really hard for young players to play with short minutes. It's hard for them to get into any kind of rhythm.

``But it's a lot different playing in Utah in February than playing in Indiana in a crucial game or playing in Detroit. I guess them doing well gives me a little more comfort if certain things don't work out, but we're still going to try to add someone at that position who can help.''

As for Payton having suitors, Doc Rivers said: ``I think that's great. I'm happy for Gary. Last summer nobody wanted him, but he came in here and did everything we asked him to do and played really well. He's a much better person than people give him credit for, so I'm happy for him. And I'd still like to see him back with us if things work out.''

How crazy is this lineup?

C: Raef
PF: Walker
SF: Ricky Davis
SG: PP
PG: Payton

With guys like West, Banks, Jefferson, Allen and Blount coming off the bench. I don't know if the starting 5 can defend, but they should be exciting to watch. And it's a pretty good 10-deep squad.

[BishopMVP]

How crazy is this lineup?

C: Raef
PF: Walker
SF: Ricky Davis
SG: PP
PG: Payton

With guys like West, Banks, Jefferson, Allen and Blount coming off the bench. I don't know if the starting 5 can defend, but they should be exciting to watch. And it's a pretty good 10-deep squad.Going off rotations this season, they wouldn't start Ricky. Either have Allen out there for defensive purposes, but maybe now put West out there because he seems to be fitting in real well with that unit in that he doesn't demand the ball but hits open shots when needed. That would leave a 2nd unit of Jefferson at 4, Allen at 2, Banks at 1, Ricky at the 3 as the scorer and either Perkins or the worst player in the league at the 5. Or maybe go small like against PHX and leave 'Toine or Pierce in and push Jefferson to the 5. Only problem with this scenario is that teams with more than 8, maybe 9 players in the rotation rarely do much in the playoffs, and I doubt the C's are ready to either sit the $40 million waste of oxygen or any of the promising rookies/2nd-year guys completely. So with a Payton signing, that would leave 11 players.

[Blackadar]

Sometimes, you just get lucky...or good information:

hxxp://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2005/03/03/ainge_getting_ready_for_payton_re_signing/
----------------------------------------------
Ainge getting ready for Payton re-signing
By Shira Springer and Jackie MacMullan, Globe Staff | March 3, 2005

Veteran point guard Gary Payton has verbally agreed to rejoin the Celtics, according to executive director of basketball operations Danny Ainge. Payton was dealt to Atlanta Feb. 24 in the Antoine Walker trade and waived by the Hawks Tuesday. He clears waivers tomorrow, when the Celtics plan to reacquire him.

"It looks good," said Ainge last night after Boston's 104-101 win over the Lakers. "He can't actually sign the paperwork until [tomorrow], so it's not officially done, but we're expecting him back."

Payton was in Boston yesterday but did not attend last night's game. There was some discussion among the Celtics ownership about whether bringing back Payton was the right move, with rookie Delonte West continuing to play exceptionally. But in the end, Payton's experience and his positive attitude while he was with the club was too tempting to overlook.

In his postgame press conference, coach Doc Rivers voiced his pleasure at the prospect of Payton returning. The veteran point guard should be ready to go for tomorrow night's game against Charlotte. Rivers said he was "positive that he would be surprised if [Payton] did not re-sign."

Rivers added: "I talked to him [yesterday]. I can't tell you want we talked about, but it didn't sound like he was going anywhere else. And that was great. I hadn't been able to get a hold of him since the trade. Honestly, I was getting a little nervous . . . He didn't say he was coming, but he was as close as I've seen him to committing to anything. I would be surprised if he didn't."
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Oh, and with Walker back, the Cs are 3-0 against 3 Western Conference teams (@Utah, @Phoenix and the Lakers). Walker has been good since his return: 24ppg, 12rpg, 3apg. He also seems to bring some energy and spirit to a crew that need it.

The Cs should have one of the better lineups and benches in the Eastern Conference.

PG Payton, C Raef, PF/SF Walker, SF/SG Pierce, SF/SG Ricky Davis, PF Al Jefferson (rookie), PG Marcus Banks, PG/SG Delonte West (rookie), PG/SG Tony Allen (rookie), PF/C Mark Blount.

You have the veteran starters (Raef, Payton), he superstar(s) (Pierce, Walker), the athletic guys (Davis, Banks, Allen), the young guys (Allen, West, Jefferson), the solid veteran subs (Blount), etc. It seems like a good mix. Heck, you can even throw in the big youngster Kedrick Perkins (6-10, 280), who grabs an average of 3rpg in only 9 minutes.

Should be interesting to see if they can gel.

[Sublime 2]

It's probably just because TAllen is down, but Justin Reed's increased role has shown me he can play. He's not just another 2nd round scrub...atleast not yet. Heading to tomorrows game against the Bobcats, hopefully for win number 4 in a row (i think 7 in a row at home too).

[Sublime 2]

Celtics are now 11-1 since the return of Toine and have basically clinched the Atlantic division. It would be nice if they kept the 3rd best record in the East for homecourt advantage for the first round. With 15 games to go (a few tough ones) i think the C's can finish out the season 10-5 or 9-6, finishing hopefully around 48-34. Walker is without a doubt the leader of this team, he shoulders the leadership role (w/ Payton i think) and lets Pierce play his game. His ill-advised 3 point attempts have been reduced and his shooting percentage is greatly increased. I'd like to see them in ECF's but that may be some homerism speaking. Definetly think they can and should get by the first round and put up a good fight in the 2nd.

[BishopMVP]

Celtics are now 11-1 since the return of Toine and have basically clinched the Atlantic division. It would be nice if they kept the 3rd best record in the East for homecourt advantage for the first round.We get the 3 seed regardless based off winning the Atlantic Division - until the trade for 'Toine it looked like there could be a sub-.500 team in that 3 seed. With the way Detroit is playing, it looks like we're gonna be stuck there though and no chance of moving up to 2 even if we go 13-2, 12-3. It's been mostly easy teams lately, and the next couple weeks should tell us more, but based off the Detroit win and continued wins against weaker teams, it's not out of the question the C's are a Shaq injury away from the NBA Finals.